Today's total purse money at Monmouth park is...

[onefast99]

$225k that is pretty bad considering a short meet. Why doesn't the state sell this track and the Meadowlands? Why is the purse money so low? Maybe someone on this forum has a good reason. The casino hand-out will end next year, to survive the slots and a card room need to be opened at MP and the Meadowlands.

[cj]

If they need slots and a card room to survive, they should probably just go away.

[slewis]

$225k that is pretty bad considering a short meet. Why doesn't the state sell this track and the Meadowlands? Why is the purse money so low? Maybe someone on this forum has a good reason. The casino hand-out will end next year, to survive the slots and a card room need to be opened at MP and the Meadowlands.


Sell the track? To who? A real estate developer?

You certainly wont make a profit racing...

Remember even NYRA with it's huge handles would be out of business if forced to race in the mold of the previous business model.

They claimed they were a separate non-govt entity. They were responsible for the property taxes on the land. They never paid.

Anyone buying the racetracks in NJ would be forced to run it like any other business (unless the state is going to give them a tax exclusion).

Even then, they would be hard pressed to make profit.
I've stated this once and Ill state it again... Racetracks should be viewed as State Parks and entertainment centers for the patrons and visitors of the state. State govt' should help in keeping the industry alive during tough times as they will reap the benefits during good.
Tracks provide numerous jobs and generate $$$$ for related industries.

Tracks and horsemen should NOT get a piece of ANY slot revenue and should receive help from the state when needed.
In order to assure the tracks are being managed properly, all top management should have no more than 3 yr. contracts and the track, if franchised, (like NYRA) should get NO MORE than 5 yrs.

Wonder how NYRA got 25 yrs???? Find out the age of the guys calling the shots there now.... In 25 yrs they'll just about be dead.... and they wont have to worry about anyone taking over their little game.

[onefast99]

If they need slots and a card room to survive, they should probably just go away.
Phillypark has survived and increased their purse monies, DP has survived. So my take is that MP and Club Med need the slot revenue to survive. The lack of purse monies at MP scares me as this is a year when the casino's are still contributing to the tracks to keep them from competing with them.

[46zilzal]

Maiden Specials at Woodbine area now running above $60K

No wonder all want to race there. They couldn't have that purse structure without the DUMB money from casino gambling

[onefast99]

Maiden Specials at Woodbine area now running above $60K

No wonder all want to race there. They couldn't have that purse structure without the DUMB money from casino gambling
We had several horses there last summer it is very expensive as you remember the US dollar was dead even with the Canadian dollar today the USD is worth 15 cents more so the purse money is actually 15% less in USD. Also for a decent trainer it is a minimum of $100 per day to scope a horse is $95 and medications are off the wall. Great place to visit but I don't want my horses there!

[castaway01]

Phillypark has survived and increased their purse monies, DP has survived. So my take is that MP and Club Med need the slot revenue to survive. The lack of purse monies at MP scares me as this is a year when the casino's are still contributing to the tracks to keep them from competing with them.

Ummm, yeah, increased with a billion slot machines (and if you are keeping up the latest news, that may end down the line, at least the money going to purses)...Philly Park would be dead without the slots.

[alhattab]

Ummm, yeah, increased with a billion slot machines (and if you are keeping up the latest news, that may end down the line, at least the money going to purses)...Philly Park would be dead without the slots.

Maybe not the only reason but a huge reason Mth (and Md, and KY and others) need the slots is because PA and DE have them. Without slot money fueling purses I think we'd be much closer to the world many expected when full-card simulcasting became widespread. Remember the days when many thought that the large tracks would be able to kill off or greatly marginalize the small tracks because of their significantly better product and resulting ability to leverage higher fees for the signal? Pha, Del and others would be distribution outlets with their racing confined to the days the big boys were off with maybe some mini-meets. Slots at those tracks changed the complexion of the business entirely. The worst thing that ever happened to the sport in my view.

[Rutgers]

Obviously, the low pursues come from a low handle, even with the casino supplement most of the pursue money needs to come from horse racing.

And in a nutshell, the handle is comparably low because Monmouth Park and 4NJBets (the only legal ADW company available to NJ residents) are poorly run.

And if Monmouth Park was given slots and cards, they too would probably be poorly run as well, and NJ racing would still be unable to compete with DE, PA and NY.

BTW Slewis NYRA did pay the property taxes, that's the key reason for NYRA got the 25 years franchise. New York knew NYRA paid the property taxes from the beginning, and they knew because of that they wouldn't prevail in court.

[NJ Stinks]

And in a nutshell, the handle is comparably low because Monmouth Park and 4NJBets (the only legal ADW company available to NJ residents) are poorly run.



Why do you think 4NJBETS is poorly run, Rutgers?

[slewis]

Obviously, the low pursues come from a low handle, even with the casino supplement most of the pursue money needs to come from horse racing.

And in a nutshell, the handle is comparably low because Monmouth Park and 4NJBets (the only legal ADW company available to NJ residents) are poorly run.

And if Monmouth Park was given slots and cards, they too would probably be poorly run as well, and NJ racing would still be unable to compete with DE, PA and NY.

BTW Slewis NYRA did pay the property taxes, that's the key reason for NYRA got the 25 years franchise. New York knew NYRA paid the property taxes from the beginning, and they knew because of that they wouldn't prevail in court.


Absolutely incorrect......http://http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=3004360

[Canarsie]

Why do you think 4NJBETS is poorly run, Rutgers?

I would like to know also since I use them. The only major complaint I have is the video is severely delayed even more than CBS Sportsline. Other than that they have answered every question I have emailed them in less than an hour for the most part. Well the video quality could be a little better but I'm sure that will im prove down the road.

[Rutgers]

NJ Stinks and Canarsie:

Prior to moving back to NJ I lived in CT (the state, not the track) and NY. While living there I had an account with a couple different ADW companies. There are a few key areas where NJBets is not on par with some of the other ADW companies. Such as..

1) No direct personal (i.e telephone) contact with technical support. The only way to contact them is though e-mail. I find that to be very poor customer service.

I am the customer. I am the source (along with my other horseplayers) of the company's income. But I am not allowed to talk directly to the person that can solve/resolve my problem.

NJBets will tell you you get a response within an hour. And most people I talk to say it's true. But what good is a response in 20 minutes if it's 15 minutes to post? (The fact someone says they usually get back to me within an hour when I have a problem is troubling. I used some ADWs for years and never had a problem

Plus, I am not very computer savy, I have poor typing and writing skills and I am a poor speller. I do not like to write e-mails and it takes me longer than most, but with NJBets I have no choice.

2) NJBets has frequent slow-downs and crashes of the system on big race days. This past Preakness, due to volume the system was at times unable to show the wager you made and your correct account balance. I did not experience this with the other ADW's I used.

3) NJBets does not offer all the bets at the tracks they carry, specifically, the Fortune 6 at Beulah and the Grand Slam at NYRA. You can wager though tracks, but not those bets. (There may be others, but since I am not interrested in playing them I am not aware of them)

I do realize that not all ADWs carry all tracks and all wagers. But if you have an account with a couple of ADW, you should be able to bet all tracks and all wagers. But in NJ we do not have have a choice of ADWs.

As a side note, as I am sure you are aware of the home page on NJBets will list any big carryovers of the day. NJBets will often list the Fortune 6 carryover even though they do not take the bet. I once call them and spoke to a manager there about it, they admitted the error and said it should not have been there. But the next day they did it again.

I also had a couple other bad experiences with NJBets, which I find troubling.

One occured in April 2008. Keeneland had a Pick 6 carryover on April 16. I played multi-tickets. After the wagering started, a horse in leg A scratched. I had the horse on a couple of my tickets. (He probably was going to be favorite) The rule at the time was, any wager that had that horse was refunded. But NJBets did not automatically refund my money, I had to call them to get it back and I was refunded until 3 days later. I should not have to ask to get my money back.

If you have any different opinions on the above or NJBets, please feel free to share them.

[Robert Fischer]

Televise as a gambling game of skill (not as a historic sports event)
Free to Basic Cable and dish subscribers
Prime Time (night) if possible (meadowlands?)
$10buy-in/$20bank tournaments - LIVE Play from home viewers via fullservice ADW(run by state)
one of the announcers plays along the tournys. promotes shares tactics
Television is bigger than slots. Promoting the game on TV grows the player population and the pool size which are more important to skilled players than decreased takeout or more accurate info.

The tracks themselves are minor revenue generators on most days, with the potential player population so spread out and busy. Even the track revenue will increase with a strong broadcast effort.

[Rutgers]

Slewis,

Thank you for the link.

My earlier comment was in response to your comment:

"They claimed they were a separate non-govt entity. They were responsible for the property taxes on the land. They never paid."

While it is true that at the time of NYRA bankruptcy filing the Town of Hempstead and the City of New York as were as Creditors holding claims, to say they "never paid" property taxes is not true.

NYRA paid the property taxes since it's incorporation in the 1950's. It was only when they were in finanical trouble did they miss the property tax payments. And by listing them as the Town of Hempstead and the City of New York as Creditors, NYRA acknowledges the debt and their obligation to pay it.

If my comment offended you in anyway, I apologize. That was not my intention.

[Canarsie]

NJ Stinks and Canarsie:

Prior to moving back to NJ I lived in CT (the state, not the track) and NY. While living there I had an account with a couple different ADW companies. There are a few key areas where NJBets is not on par with some of the other ADW companies. Such as..

1) No direct personal (i.e telephone) contact with technical support. The only way to contact them is though e-mail. I find that to be very poor customer service.

I am the customer. I am the source (along with my other horseplayers) of the company's income. But I am not allowed to talk directly to the person that can solve/resolve my problem.

NJBets will tell you you get a response within an hour. And most people I talk to say it's true. But what good is a response in 20 minutes if it's 15 minutes to post? (The fact someone says they usually get back to me within an hour when I have a problem is troubling. I used some ADWs for years and never had a problem

Plus, I am not very computer savy, I have poor typing and writing skills and I am a poor speller. I do not like to write e-mails and it takes me longer than most, but with NJBets I have no choice.

2) NJBets has frequent slow-downs and crashes of the system on big race days. This past Preakness, due to volume the system was at times unable to show the wager you made and your correct account balance. I did not experience this with the other ADW's I used.

3) NJBets does not offer all the bets at the tracks they carry, specifically, the Fortune 6 at Beulah and the Grand Slam at NYRA. You can wager though tracks, but not those bets. (There may be others, but since I am not interrested in playing them I am not aware of them)

I do realize that not all ADWs carry all tracks and all wagers. But if you have an account with a couple of ADW, you should be able to bet all tracks and all wagers. But in NJ we do not have have a choice of ADWs.

As a side note, as I am sure you are aware of the home page on NJBets will list any big carryovers of the day. NJBets will often list the Fortune 6 carryover even though they do not take the bet. I once call them and spoke to a manager there about it, they admitted the error and said it should not have been there. But the next day they did it again.

I also had a couple other bad experiences with NJBets, which I find troubling.

One occured in April 2008. Keeneland had a Pick 6 carryover on April 16. I played multi-tickets. After the wagering started, a horse in leg A scratched. I had the horse on a couple of my tickets. (He probably was going to be favorite) The rule at the time was, any wager that had that horse was refunded. But NJBets did not automatically refund my money, I had to call them to get it back and I was refunded until 3 days later. I should not have to ask to get my money back.

If you have any different opinions on the above or NJBets, please feel free to share them.


Let me fire away here things might have changed. The few times I called on the phone I talked to a person within 5 minutes and they once canceled a bet without a problem. Now I can do it online so that's not a problem.

On Derby/Preakness day there was a delay but they stated all the bets went through just with a lag due to heavy volume. So that made all my losers just that. :lol:

As far as tracks covered NJBets covers almost every main track save a few. As far as the exotic bet I would call or even better go to the NJSEA and speak to a top honcho (they will call you back it's almost always voice mail) and explain the situation. I did that for the P4's they were showing and an executive spent over 20 minutes with me going over it.

NJBets is the only game in town I wish there were other choices but that's not happening. Plus NJSEA is in partnership with someone who made the site don't know the split.

This doesn't affect me but there is no minimum that I know of to watch video find that on another site. I could be wrong on this but my friend had a null account for a while and he was able to watch.

As far as the wager a years difference is a lot of time there were lots of kinks in the system that have been worked out. Ask the TVG players who had their bets canceled becase of no agreement between them and Hollywood. It took a lot of complaining before TVG did the right thing.

To sum it up could NJBets be better? Sure they could offer programs, wagering rewards, and a host of other things but as this point I can wager my money safely and securely even from a cell phone and watch video.

[Cratos]

$225k that is pretty bad considering a short meet. Why doesn't the state sell this track and the Meadowlands? Why is the purse money so low? Maybe someone on this forum has a good reason. The casino hand-out will end next year, to survive the slots and a card room need to be opened at MP and the Meadowlands.

If purse size was the abrogating problem with horseracing today then increasing it would be a fortuitous solution. But that is simply not the case. One of the major problems with horseracing today is that it continues to run off of the business model of yesteryear. That model licenses operators/owners to operate a racetrack under a mutuel take scheme which takes over one-fifth (when averaged) of every bettor dollar wagered and is controlled by the racing and wagering boards of the various authorizing states.

The impact of this has been too many racetracks and business decisions by the racetracks having to be either approved by or conferred with the various racing and wagering boards before they can be made. Furthermore this systemic type of outdated and idiotic business model creates declining or slow growing operating revenues while producing little or no utility to the wagering horse racing customer other than betting.

But it is revealing to look at this problem historically. When the tracks wanted to make more revenues they and the states became creative with exotic wagering. Exactas, trifectas, Pick 3s, Pick 4s, Pick 6s, etc became common place at nearly every racetrack in North America and added to that short-sighted ingenuity was OTB and ITW. All of this creative was clamoring for a shrinking wagering dollar.

However it didn’t stop there because the geniuses metabolized their collective brains into the brilliant ideal of adding slots at racetracks with the thought being that slots would bring in new customers and additional revenues which would bolster the track revenues.

What was wrong with that idea was that the same state authorities was giving local municipalities the rights to allow private developers to built and operate casinos away from the racetracks with locations far more convenient to slot players. Additionally it is not clear that the horseplayer and the slot player are the same type of gambler.

And when you thought that things couldn’t or wouldn’t get worse; they did. With horseplayers dealing with old building structures at many racetracks, a data distribution system being run by companies independent of the racetracks, drugs/doping laws and guidelines being administered differently by the individual states, plus a myriad of other negatives affecting the bettor; the synthetic surface was born.

There are other things that I probably missed and hopefully others will add in their responses, but the effort here was to start the conversation that this industry which we love as a gambling pastime is in dire need of major reconstructive surgery.

[thespaah]

$225k that is pretty bad considering a short meet. Why doesn't the state sell this track and the Meadowlands? Why is the purse money so low? Maybe someone on this forum has a good reason. The casino hand-out will end next year, to survive the slots and a card room need to be opened at MP and the Meadowlands.
All states that surround NJ have slots to inflate purses. Horsemen vote with their feet.
They go where the money is.
If anyone has noticed, handle is down at All three NJ tracks.
That effects purses.
NJ tracks are going to be ex tracks if other states have an unfair advantage in competition.
Sell the tracks? To whom?
Even if a buyer is found, the result will be the same.

[thespaah]

Maybe not the only reason but a huge reason Mth (and Md, and KY and others) need the slots is because PA and DE have them. Without slot money fueling purses I think we'd be much closer to the world many expected when full-card simulcasting became widespread. Remember the days when many thought that the large tracks would be able to kill off or greatly marginalize the small tracks because of their significantly better product and resulting ability to leverage higher fees for the signal? Pha, Del and others would be distribution outlets with their racing confined to the days the big boys were off with maybe some mini-meets. Slots at those tracks changed the complexion of the business entirely. The worst thing that ever happened to the sport in my view.
The general fall off in attendance and handle started long before slots.
I left NJ in 1989. And I can remember these items.
Weekday spring and fall days at Aqueduct were still drawing in the 5000 to 7000 range. Belmont maybe 10 -20% more. Belmont drew 12,000 -15,000 routinely on weekends. But those numbers were significantly less than just 5 or so years earlier when a routin Saturday figure would break 20k easily.
Here's my take.
The powers that be in horse racing forgot or quite possibly never knew how to market their product to young people. As gambling opportunites became more numerous and geographically available numbers at the tracks began to decline. Also let's face it we've rasied gen X and gen Y people who are in constant pursuit of instant gratification. One wagering opportunity every 25 to 30 mins doesn't cut it for the short attention spans of these people.
The advent of simulcasting helped boost handle figures but attendance continued to decline.
So fast forward to the VLT. Once we as human beings become accustomed to something we want more of it. And so it goes. The horse racing industry became "addicted" to slot money. State governments seeing declining revenue from racing, sought slots as IMO a replacement for revenue streams.
Horse racing is in trouble. That's a fact.
If a new marketing campaign is not developed soon, the sport as we know it will disapear

[thespaah]

Televise as a gambling game of skill (not as a historic sports event)
Free to Basic Cable and dish subscribers
Prime Time (night) if possible (meadowlands?)
$10buy-in/$20bank tournaments - LIVE Play from home viewers via fullservice ADW(run by state)
one of the announcers plays along the tournys. promotes shares tactics
Television is bigger than slots. Promoting the game on TV grows the player population and the pool size which are more important to skilled players than decreased takeout or more accurate info.

The tracks themselves are minor revenue generators on most days, with the potential player population so spread out and busy. Even the track revenue will increase with a strong broadcast effort.
Thats fine and dandy. But in order to get on tv ads must be sold.
That means ratings. Advertisers are not going to buy ad time for a few thousand horseplayers. And that is that.
No ads, no tv.

[The Hawk]

The general fall off in attendance and handle started long before slots.
I left NJ in 1989. And I can remember these items.
Weekday spring and fall days at Aqueduct were still drawing in the 5000 to 7000 range. Belmont maybe 10 -20% more. Belmont drew 12,000 -15,000 routinely on weekends. But those numbers were significantly less than just 5 or so years earlier when a routin Saturday figure would break 20k easily.

For what it's worth, these are generally the figures Monmouth's getting now. But it's silly to even consider attendance figures at this stage of the game, with all the ways to bet from off track that didn't exist even 10-12 years ago.

[Robert Fischer]

Thats fine and dandy. But in order to get on tv ads must be sold.
That means ratings. Advertisers are not going to buy ad time for a few thousand horseplayers. And that is that.
No ads, no tv.

We're talking about the GOV'T/STATE here.
The state broadcasts a channel like NJN(New Jersey Public Television and Radio). It isn't under the same responsibility to sell ads as some private investor trying to buy a spot on ESPN. The Gov't can create a channel and broadcast what they want. Over time ads will also be sold and the revenue from the ADW will be substantial.

[thespaah]

For what it's worth, these are generally the figures Monmouth's getting now. But it's silly to even consider attendance figures at this stage of the game, with all the ways to bet from off track that didn't exist even 10-12 years ago.Understood.
However, handle is also way down as well.
Typically on a weeknight at the Meadowlands during the Harness meet, on site handle is about 2 milllion.
Total handle about 3 million. Add a million or so on Saturday.
Same for MTH.
Now handle looks to be off about 20% from just a few years ago.
Interest in horse racing is way down. That's a cold hard fact.
One poster in here made agood observation. He stated that meetings were too long and too many meets in close geographic proximity were operating at the same time.
Heck I remeber when Garden State Park was running concurently with Phila Park. I wish I was THAT meeeting.:bang:
Well guess what. GSP is a condominum and shopping complex.
AC is essentially out of business save for the mandatory dates they race to keep their simulcast licesnse.
The Meadowlands was the preemininent harness meet in North America. Now that tracks purses have reverted to mid 1980's levels while Yonkers across the Hudson has double the nightly avg purse to The Big M.
Meadowlands does not card an Invitational pace on Saturday nights because horsemen have gone over to Yonkers to race their best pacers for $50k.
NJ racing is in bad shape. :(

[thespaah]

We're talking about the GOV'T/STATE here.
The state broadcasts a channel like NJN(New Jersey Public Television and Radio). It isn't under the same responsibility to sell ads as some private investor trying to buy a spot on ESPN. The Gov't can create a channel and broadcast what they want. Over time ads will also be sold and the revenue from the ADW will be substantial.
I don't think the horribly overtaxed residents of NJ will sit by while the State govt spends more of their hard earned money for such a service. Especially in a recession.
I am not a naysayer. If I still lived there, I'd all over a horse racing service like that.
The only way I see this happening is if the tracks put up the money to put the races on public access cable channels.

[point given]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
We're talking about the GOV'T/STATE here.
The state broadcasts a channel like NJN(New Jersey Public Television and Radio). It isn't under the same responsibility to sell ads as some private investor trying to buy a spot on ESPN. The Gov't can create a channel and broadcast what they want. Over time ads will also be sold and the revenue from the ADW will be substantial.

. I agree with Fischer on this. In NY Capital district they have a cable OTB channel which does just as he says. Full time racing, callin shows, handicappping shows . they are very proactive on service and communication and have their own ADW and website capitalotb.com When i go to saratoga i watch the channel and sometimes call in a few bets on the west coast track. Its not fancy, but a homegrown type service and does a good job of developing their market area which other NY OTBs donot do. Take a look at their website and look for the link for video streaming and their program schedule. :ThmbUp: I think they have the same type channel in PA too.
http://www.capitalotb.com/

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
We're talking about the GOV'T/STATE here.
The state broadcasts a channel like NJN(New Jersey Public Television and Radio). It isn't under the same responsibility to sell ads as some private investor trying to buy a spot on ESPN. The Gov't can create a channel and broadcast what they want. Over time ads will also be sold and the revenue from the ADW will be substantial.

. I agree with Fischer on this. In NY Capital district they have a cable OTB channel which does just as he says. Full time racing, callin shows, handicappping shows . they are very proactive on service and communication and have their own ADW and website capitalotb.com When i go to saratoga i watch the channel and sometimes call in a few bets on the west coast track. Its not fancy, but a homegrown type service and does a good job of developing their market area which other NY OTBs donot do. Take a look at their website and look for the link for video streaming and their program schedule. :ThmbUp: I think they have the same type channel in PA too.
http://www.capitalotb.com/
Yes I am familiar. Have a friend Upstate. Their cable co. has had the Capital District OTB channel for as long as I can remember.
Cable operators must be persuaded to make room for such a channel.
How is this done?

[point given]

Yes I am familiar. Have a friend Upstate. Their cable co. has had the Capital District OTB channel for as long as I can remember.
Cable operators must be persuaded to make room for such a channel.
How is this done?

I would think that petitioning the cable system by local gov't and politicos is the first step.Where I live there is a local channel that each local community can put their own channel on for original programming and BB stuff.Some channels must be set aside for local govt and /or educationaal purposes and checking out the cable companies contract with the county will state their responsibilities.

The state or your regional OTB must propose it and what they intend to do with the channel and the state laws checked for legalities .Write an email to the Capital website to check it out with them.I don't know what you are after, but it is being done, in fact i just watched a Trackfacts show on Capital otb with what they are planning for the saratoga meet and had the otb president on answering viewers questions. They do a good job, not slick but meat and potatoes stuff.which is fine with me. Hope this helps you. good luck

[onefast99]

Here is an idea for the powers that be at MP how about rewarding the bettors and owners by having a day(like Penn nat)where the purses are 50% more and the only ones that can run there are the horses who are stabled there. As many are aware you get points awarded to you for the amount of races you ran on the track thus giving a frequent runner a spot in one of these extra purse monies added races and keeping outsiders off the track for one night. Penn put on a great show by giving back to the owners and since the fields were all full the bettors also received a little more return for those savy enough to pick the winners. 225k in purse monies will result in small fields and most bettors will not play a small field.