Jockey ratings

[cj's dad]

I think that there should be a rating above Apprentice and Journeyman which at present are the only 2 ratings for jocks which exist:

How about this idea? And I'm sticking my neck out here but why not? How could additional information possibly hurt? After all, wouldn't an additional jock's rating be helpful?

I believe that jockeys are tradesmen, much like carpenters, plumbers, etc... they serve apprenticeships. Those who are successful move on to Journeyman status.

My suggestion would be that there be one more rating level; that of Master Jockey.

Qualification for this ranking could be based on having achieved a given number of the following. perhaps 2 of 3:

1- total wins - 1000
2- total earnings $2 million
3-graded wins - 5

Accomplishing these levels would designate "MJ" after the jocks name

The apprentices would have an "A" while the journeymen would of course have a "J"

More information to have at one's fingertips while handicapping.

[RockHardTen1985]

How about a top 5 list ?

1. Ramon Dominguez

2. -

3. -

4. -

5. -



Ramon is all that matters.

[post time]

:2: -Garrett Gomez

[kenwoodallpromos]

How about just printing the total career wins for jockey and trainer beside the name on the PP's and programs?

[cees with dees]

Allen Jerkens was once asked if he thought one of his winners, I don't recall who, got a great ride.
Jerkens responded by saying "a monkey could have done the same thing".
He wins at a 20% plus clip year after year using people like Shannon Uske, Noel Wynter, Tyrone Carter, and just about every other female that crosses his path.
My point being and it's just my opinion from watching races and replays for over 30 years.
Rarely do I think the jockey makes much of a difference.
I'll give you two examples of riders that are high profile that I think are terrible.
Eibar Coa, who refuses to save ground under any circumstances and is dreadful out of the gate. And John Velazquez who rarely if ever shows up unless there is big money involved.
The best way to judge aside from the naked eye is to look at the percentage of legitmate contenders a rider gets and compare that to his win percentage.
Ben

[toetoe]

Dad,

I don't think it can be quantified like that. Example: Christian Santiago Reyes is one of the best right now. He probably has fewer than 100 wins, but he'll outride Paco Lopez, Kayla Stra, Jean-Luc Samyn or A.J. Davis ten times out of ten. How long he'll pay decent prices is the big question.

[Greyfox]

1. We'd never agree on the ratings. One man's tea is another's poison.

2. I use the DRF. The w-p-s stats plus the win statistic is all I want.

[Wickel]

Allen Jerkens was once asked if he thought one of his winners, I don't recall who, got a great ride.
Jerkens responded by saying "a monkey could have done the same thing".
He wins at a 20% plus clip year after year using people like Shannon Uske, Noel Wynter, Tyrone Carter, and just about every other female that crosses his path.
My point being and it's just my opinion from watching races and replays for over 30 years.
Rarely do I think the jockey makes much of a difference.
I'll give you two examples of riders that are high profile that I think are terrible.
Eibar Coa, who refuses to save ground under any circumstances and is dreadful out of the gate. And John Velazquez who rarely if ever shows up unless there is big money involved.
The best way to judge aside from the naked eye is to look at the percentage of legitmate contenders a rider gets and compare that to his win percentage.
Ben

That's why Jerkens is only a 20 percent trainer year in and year out, because of the Uskes, Wynters and Carters. If he used better riders, my guess is he'd be a 30 percent trainer, maybe more. If you do some research on his "giant-killer" type victories, most of his horses had the top jocks on board. And jocks, IMHO, are a key element in the winning process. After all, someone has to break the horse, rate him, keep him clear of trouble, etc. Sandy Hawley, for instance, was considered a great jockey on the West Coast, but everyone of his trips were wider than wide, costing him many victories. Jockey ratings would be useful to point, but they fail to take in the stuff you need for situational handicapping--good gate jock; aggresiveness, timing, etc.

[toetoe]

If he used better riders, my guess is he'd be a 30 percent trainer, maybe more.

Bad for Jerkens and owners, good for us. We still may get a huge price with Ray Ganpath. Ramon Dominguez at double digits ? Uh ... nah.

[fmolf]

Bad for Jerkens and owners, good for us. We still may get a huge price with Ray Ganpath. Ramon Dominguez at double digits ? Uh ... nah.
Cl's dad..a very interesting concept.The info i would like to see and would be a good indicator of jockey talent is what his win% is with the favorite.then his win % with horses under 5/1 and horse between 5/1 an 10/1..and last his % with horses over 10/1....i know these stats are available somewhere for sale.For me a jock better win with a higher than 33% clip with favs.He should also be better than most of his peers in the other categories.

[cj]

These are how I rate jockeys:

A) Usually doesn't screw it up
B) Usually doesn't fall off
C) They couldn't find anyone else

[BUD]

D-sent this to me- A Great idea I think- Hopefully he passes it to the DRF NRTA-NRA-ETC-

Its a great idea- I bet 100 bucks they ignore it-come out with the excact ranking system some time ater Xmas--

Good sh-t Sire!!

[sobrenatural]

Great reply...

[cj's dad]

Folks, my point is that in all crafts/trades there are levels of accomplishment which all craftsmen strive for. Recently graduated apprentices are lumped into the same category as seasoned journeymen. Fine- do that; that is the protocol in the craft trades. To assume that all journeymen are of the same caliber or level of ability is also a stretch I think. My proposal is simply that in a non-subjective manner, jockeys can be elevated to a status over and above journeyman; as in master jockey/rider.

Master plumbers, electricians etc... do not appreciate being put in the same category as journeymen and I know that from 1st hand experience.

Credit due is credit earned.

This will probably never happen, but there is no way that a journeyman jock at a minor track should be rated on the same level as a journeyman jockey at a major league track such as Belmont- Keeneland- Oaklawn etc...

[rastajenk]

I doubt if the jocks themselves think about it in those terms.

[Run Nicholas Run]

Allen Jerkens was once asked if he thought one of his winners, I don't recall who, got a great ride.
Jerkens responded by saying "a monkey could have done the same thing".
He wins at a 20% plus clip year after year using people like Shannon Uske, Noel Wynter, Tyrone Carter, and just about every other female that crosses his path.
My point being and it's just my opinion from watching races and replays for over 30 years.
Rarely do I think the jockey makes much of a difference.
I'll give you two examples of riders that are high profile that I think are terrible.
Eibar Coa, who refuses to save ground under any circumstances and is dreadful out of the gate. And John Velazquez who rarely if ever shows up unless there is big money involved.
The best way to judge aside from the naked eye is to look at the percentage of legitmate contenders a rider gets and compare that to his win percentage.
Ben

Mr. Jerken's used to give mounts also to Sharon Emerson.

[RockHardTen1985]

Allen Jerkens was once asked if he thought one of his winners, I don't recall who, got a great ride.
Jerkens responded by saying "a monkey could have done the same thing".
He wins at a 20% plus clip year after year using people like Shannon Uske, Noel Wynter, Tyrone Carter, and just about every other female that crosses his path.
My point being and it's just my opinion from watching races and replays for over 30 years.
Rarely do I think the jockey makes much of a difference.
I'll give you two examples of riders that are high profile that I think are terrible.
Eibar Coa, who refuses to save ground under any circumstances and is dreadful out of the gate. And John Velazquez who rarely if ever shows up unless there is big money involved.
The best way to judge aside from the naked eye is to look at the percentage of legitmate contenders a rider gets and compare that to his win percentage.
Ben

I disagree about those 2 jockeys being terrible.

Coa seems to have some balls and does fine the rail a lot.
JV is still ok he seems to always be in decent position but he does tend to stay away from the rail

Prado, IMO is horrible.

[cees with dees]

See, and I love Edgar Prado and have always been very lucky with him.
I'll always have a soft spot for him because he got Sarava home for me in the Belmont.
I had played the Friday to Saturday DD and caught You as the second choice on Friday.
Had a $10 DD with Sarava and 2 others and after Sarava won, not knowing what the DD was paying, I went to OTB to cash with my ID and Social Security number.
Turns out it wasn't even taxable. Paid around $350 but it was really fun rooting for and winning with a 60-1 shot.
Ben

[FenceBored]

I think that there should be a rating above Apprentice and Journeyman which at present are the only 2 ratings for jocks which exist:

How about this idea? And I'm sticking my neck out here but why not? How could additional information possibly hurt? After all, wouldn't an additional jock's rating be helpful?

I believe that jockeys are tradesmen, much like carpenters, plumbers, etc... they serve apprenticeships. Those who are successful move on to Journeyman status.

My suggestion would be that there be one more rating level; that of Master Jockey.

Qualification for this ranking could be based on having achieved a given number of the following. perhaps 2 of 3:

1- total wins - 1000
2- total earnings $2 million
3-graded wins - 5

Accomplishing these levels would designate "MJ" after the jocks name

The apprentices would have an "A" while the journeymen would of course have a "J"

More information to have at one's fingertips while handicapping.

Often wondered why there wasn't one. Only apprentice/journeyman combination I can think of without the '/master' grade to round it out. Journeyman jockey Eddie Arcaro, yeah that sounds right. :rolleyes: Maybe that's what "Hall of Fame Jockey" is for, as in "Hall of Fame Jockey Kent Desormeaux". :)

I agree there should be a 'master jockey' designation, but I don't think a raw earnings number should figure into it. It's like box office numbers for movies. I don't care that Jurassic Park V: Transformers vs Aliens grossed $225 million in it's opening weekend. How many butts did it put into seats? Ticket prices vary (as purses do) and you can't compare figures from 10 years ago to current figures.

So, wins and graded stakes wins and, I don't know, percentage over time, maybe? Better than 15% (or whatever) winners in 3 (or 5) consecutive years would seperate the masters from the crowd.

[cj's dad]

Often wondered why there wasn't one. Only apprentice/journeyman combination I can think of without the '/master' grade to round it out. Journeyman jockey Eddie Arcaro, yeah that sounds right. :rolleyes: Maybe that's what "Hall of Fame Jockey" is for, as in "Hall of Fame Jockey Kent Desormeaux". :)

I agree there should be a 'master jockey' designation, but I don't think a raw earnings number should figure into it. It's like box office numbers for movies. I don't care that Jurassic Park V: Transformers vs Aliens grossed $225 million in it's opening weekend. How many butts did it put into seats? Ticket prices vary (as purses do) and you can't compare figures from 10 years ago to current figures.

So, wins and graded stakes wins and, I don't know, percentage over time, maybe? Better than 15% (or whatever) winners in 3 (or 5) consecutive years would seperate the masters from the crowd.

You are one of the few who I believe understand my original post; Thanks.

[socal]

puke

Really?
As cant ride?

Go-Go can take ANY horse and get just a little more.Dudes got a gift.
If you choose to ignore it,keep counting your loses.

It makes me more money.

Sometimes people make things too hard.

[Robert Goren]

Really?
As cant ride?

Go-Go can take ANY horse and get just a little more.Dudes got a gift.
If you choose to ignore it,keep counting your loses.

It makes me more money.

Sometimes people make things too hard.The guy has always had magic with horses. I first realized it many years ago when he was bug boy at Fonner Park. He gets his horses into less trouble than any other jockey out there. His horses get bet so much that there seldom much value there. There is one thing I have learned. There is no value in betting horses he is getting off of. They lose!

[RHANDIE]

The guy has always had magic with horses. I first realized it many years ago when he was bug boy at Fonner Park. He gets his horses into less trouble than any other jockey out there. His horses get bet so much that there seldom much value there. There is one thing I have learned. There is no value in betting horses he is getting off of. They lose!


Agreed, but sometimes you get a gift like I.B. Outta Here last weekend, paid $23.00, I always throw something on him if he's going off higher than 5-1. I LOVED it when he first started riding out here under the radar, the guy is insanely talented, man, if he had his shit together early in his career who knows what he could have been?