Pioneer injured...

[joanied]

Geeze...keep getting bad news from the Baffert barn...and I am as crushed as Baffert is about Pioneer's injury and retirement...you have to figure, being an Empire Maker, this colt was just gonna get better with age...I swear, seems just about every good one since we started out this Spring is injured and on the sidelines or going to the shed.
Crap :(

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/breaking-news/51587

[andymays]

I think it was at Santa Anita. Remember Bruno's email about the Pro Ride?


Let me fill you in on a couple of things. I refuse to have my eight horse stable on the pro-ride. I have had five injuries, from ankle chips, and most popular joint damage. It is diagnosed as sclerosis and bone remodeling. Mostly young horses have this issue come up. Well developed joints have a little more resiliency. Second, as the summer is here and heats up the pro-ride you will get one track in the early morning and later in the morning. You can see it yourself go at 6 am and watch horses come from works or gallops, notice the ones with white polo wraps, and how they are soiled. They would be mostly negligible soiling, but as the morning goes and the hotter it gets the track loosens and becomes looser and looser, by the end of the 8 o'clock break and nine you have white bandages soiled heavily up to the fetlock, which suggests a looser, deeper, harder to negotiate track. In laments terms the track went from firm to yielding by the amount of sunlight and heat.

Now, think of horses that work and act on a sounder firm track, and now are asked to run over a yielding one, now you got two surfaces completely opposite of each other.

The yielding surface would promote soft tissue injuries, the firmer ground, joint and tibias.

just a thought from someone at ground zero.

Keep up the good work,

Bruno

www.racingwithbruno.com


________________________________________

[macguy]

Geeze...keep getting bad news from the Baffert barn...and I am as crushed as Baffert is about Pioneer's injury and retirement...you have to figure, being an Empire Maker, this colt was just gonna get better with age...I swear, seems just about every good one since we started out this Spring is injured and on the sidelines or going to the shed.
Crap :(

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/breaking-news/51587

Oh well, I suppose they can go and send another horse who's body cannot hold up to the riggers of training off to the breeding shed. :rolleyes:

[miesque]

...I swear, seems just about every good one since we started out this Spring is injured and on the sidelines or going to the shed.


This is exactly why I don't no longer get all that wrapped up in the Triple Crown Trail hoopla. I have gotten to the point that I fully expect most horses on the trail to be retired early due to injury or put on the shelf due to injury (many of which never return to prominence), its all a question of which ones. This is also why I have shifted most of my focus and attention to the turf divisions, its immensely more enjoyable to follow at the upper levels as horses race on a regular basis and actually have some semblance of a real racing career.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Does this mark the first synthetic wonder that was retired because of a wounded ego,that was more valuable in the breeding shed???

If so is Zenyatta next????:cool:

[CincyHorseplayer]

Geeze...keep getting bad news from the Baffert barn...and I am as crushed as Baffert is about Pioneer's injury and retirement...you have to figure, being an Empire Maker, this colt was just gonna get better with age...I swear, seems just about every good one since we started out this Spring is injured and on the sidelines or going to the shed.
Crap :(

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/breaking-news/51587

Hey Joanied,you have to know by now that Quality Road is on the comeback trail.That's great for us and scary news to anybody that owns a 3yo!

[dutzman]

But I thought this kind of thing wasn't suppose to happen on synthetic surfaces? :rolleyes:

[joanied]

"I think it was at Santa Anita. Remember Bruno's email about the Pro Ride?"

hey andymays... prob'ly right...I assume it would be on the SA injury list....if I could find the damned thing... ya know, one of the first things I thought about after reading the story...and after thinking about how bummed I felt...was Bruno's blog piece... I swear, when are 'they' gonna realize that they gotta replace that Pro:mad: Ride and get back to dirt...so far, nada has been prooven that the synthetic is safer, and we have all these soft tissue things going on...and another really good horse bites the dust...I am sooooooo mad :bang:
Pioneer was my early pick for the BC Classic. Crap, crap, crap:(

[joanied]

Oh well, I suppose they can go and send another horse who's body cannot hold up to the riggers of training off to the breeding shed. :rolleyes:

The riggers of training on Pro Ride:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[joanied]

This is exactly why I don't no longer get all that wrapped up in the Triple Crown Trail hoopla. I have gotten to the point that I fully expect most horses on the trail to be retired early due to injury or put on the shelf due to injury (many of which never return to prominence), its all a question of which ones. This is also why I have shifted most of my focus and attention to the turf divisions, its immensely more enjoyable to follow at the upper levels as horses race on a regular basis and actually have some semblance of a real racing career.

I understand where you are comin' from, Miesque...but, I can't help myself...I get caught up in the whole nine yards regardless...and, yep, I get crushed at times when certain horses drop out with injuries...I don't know, maybe if I wasn't stuck in Wyoming and still on the backside, I'd feel different about it...but when you are this far removed...well, my heart simply takes over and I just want to enjoy it all...then they start breaking down and my heart starts breaking down...aaarrggghhhh...it's a vicious cycle:faint:
:)

[joanied]

Hey Joanied,you have to know by now that Quality Road is on the comeback trail.That's great for us and scary news to anybody that owns a 3yo!

Yes, I do know...and like everyone else, I can't wait :jump: ....

on your other post, Cincy... no ego there....just a good horse with a good trainer that has fallen victim to the Pro Ride soft tissue injury mess.
And man, let's hope out loud that Zenyatta stays sound...don't scare me with talk like that...no,no,no!!
:)

[DanG]

I think it was at Santa Anita. Remember Bruno's email about the Pro Ride?
I make the over under 649 times this e-mail (or whatever it is) has been posted.

Pioneerof The Nile looked 110% healthy in the Preakness after running at CD. :rolleyes: I Want Revenge’s health was 110% after moving to dirt. :rolleyes:

Assigning blame wherever and whenever it fits ones needs doesn’t make it a fact.

Thanks for the link Joanied; really a MASH unit as usual with our top 3yo’s. All the more reason we hold our breath with the Rachel’s of the world.

[PaceAdvantage]

All the more reason we hold our breath with the Rachel’s of the world.What do you mean "we" kemo sahbee?

[joanied]

I make the over under 649 times this e-mail (or whatever it is) has been posted.

Pioneerof The Nile looked 110% healthy in the Preakness after running at CD. :rolleyes: I Want Revenge’s health was 110% after moving to dirt. :rolleyes:

Assigning blame wherever and whenever it fits ones needs doesn’t make it a fact.

Thanks for the link Joanied; really a MASH unit as usual with our top 3yo’s. All the more reason we hold our breath with the Rachel’s of the world.

Yeah...that's what I keep thinking to myself...please, please, please, keep Rachel & Zenyatta healthy...actually, for whatever reason, the fillies seem to be holding up better than the colts...or so it seems...DanG...'MASH unit' is a great way to put it.
Yes indeed....WE (:D , PA) are holding our breath.

[macguy]

The riggers of training on Pro Ride:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:


Yes, that certainly doesn't help. :faint:

[andymays]

I make the over under 649 times this e-mail (or whatever it is) has been posted.

Pioneerof The Nile looked 110% healthy in the Preakness after running at CD. :rolleyes: I Want Revenge’s health was 110% after moving to dirt. :rolleyes:

Assigning blame wherever and whenever it fits ones needs doesn’t make it a fact.

Thanks for the link Joanied; really a MASH unit as usual with our top 3yo’s. All the more reason we hold our breath with the Rachel’s of the world.


Dear Dan, I think the total was 6. I think it's relevant from a Clocker and Horse Owner who knows his stuff. I realize I'm over the top when it comes to synthetics and in particular Santa Anita. Remember I follow this everday and I know the Pro Ride is the worst of them all. Great Breeders cup last year. Yes. How do you account for 80% of Trainers not likeing it according to Gary Stute? Did you read Art Wilsons article. Does Bruno's email carry any weight?

One thing you should realize is that I believe Pro Ride is a fraudulent surface for the Horseplayer and now the truth is coming out from others.

I will jump on stuff like this everytime it happens and I always back my opinion up with the written word from others. If you don't like it we can do battle every time I post. It will be a good battle.


Andy

[DanG]

AndyMays ~ I will jump on stuff like this everytime it happens and I always back my opinion up with the written word from others. If you don't like it we can do battle every time I post. It will be a good battle.

Jump on it Andy; I’m battled out. Especially on an issue where opinions are dug in like the beaches of Normandy.

I respect your opinion and I reserve the right to disagree. Reading this board your well documented stance is certainly not in the minority.

PA ~ What do you mean "we" kemo sahbee?

Not sure what you mean by this…”we” in the sense I think “we” would all agree “we” would like to see her run several more time. Observing that the really…really fast thoroughbreds are here and gone with the blink of an eye. Every time she runs I’m thankful I got to see her and hold “my” breath “we” will we see her again.

How’s that Lone Ranger?

[andymays]

Jump on it Andy; I’m battled out. Especially on an issue where opinions are dug in like the beaches of Normandy.

I respect your opinion and I reserve the right to disagree. Reading this board your well documented stance is certainly not in the minority.


Not sure what you mean by this…”we” in the sense I think “we” would all agree “we” would like to see her run several more time. Observing that the really…really fast thoroughbreds are here and gone with the blink of an eye. Every time she runs I’m thankful I got to see her and hold “my” breath “we” will we see her again.

How’s that Lone Ranger?


Dan you can't be battled out. You are one of the most respected posters on the site. We may have lost Cadillakin and Sid already so I hope you will try to change my mind and I yours.

Besides that other people are counting on us!
Andy

[DanG]

Andy; I don’t know about respected, but I do enjoy this site. The surface subject however (imo) was decided in peoples minds the second Keenland ran their first bizarre poly race timed with an hour glass. Ever since then opinions were forged in steel and battle lines were drawn.

I like discussing things; my x-wife would say I even like to argue, but this subject rarely seems like a discussion and I’m frankly losing interest in echo chambers. (Present company excluded)

[Java Gold@TFT]

It hasn't been mentioned yet but what about the inherent unsoundness of many of the Unbridled lines. Empire Maker and Unbridleds Song never made it out of their 3yo year and now have gone on to the shed to breed many potential stars that don't make it either. I don't have the stats and I know there are some exceptions but what percentage of these sires offspring actually make it all the way through the season as 3yo's? I'm mostly just talking about the stakes caliber horses as I don't see too many Unbridled Song running in 5K claimers.

[andymays]

Andy; I don’t know about respected, but I do enjoy this site. The surface subject however (imo) was decided in peoples minds the second Keenland ran their first bizarre poly race timed with an hour glass. Ever since then opinions were forged in steel and battle lines were drawn.

I like discussing things; my x-wife would say I even like to argue, but this subject rarely seems like a discussion and I’m frankly losing interest in echo chambers. (Present company excluded)


Here's a fresh email from Art wilson:

Andy,
There are all sorts of trainers who have been complaining about a rise in soft tissue injuries the past two years. Seems Santa Anita management doesn't care.
---- Original Message ----
From: andy
To: art.wilson
Subject: Injury Ends career of Pioneerof the Nile | BloodHorse.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:42:50 -0700

>I've heard of an epidemic of these soft tissue injuries on the Pro Ride
>at Santa Anita. Have you looked into this?
>
>
>
>Andy

[joanied]

Dan you can't be battled out. You are one of the most respected posters on the site. We may have lost Cadillakin and Sid already so I hope you will try to change my mind and I yours.

Besides that other people are counting on us!
Andy

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: ....go for it guys... I love reading your posts...IMO, you are both well versed, interesting, fun and above all....you know your stuff:jump:

(hope it's OK I stuck my nose in here:) )

[joanied]

Here's a fresh email from Art wilson:

Andy,
There are all sorts of trainers who have been complaining about a rise in soft tissue injuries the past two years. Seems Santa Anita management doesn't care.
---- Original Message ----
From: andy
To: art.wilson
Subject: Injury Ends career of Pioneerof the Nile | BloodHorse.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:42:50 -0700

>I've heard of an epidemic of these soft tissue injuries on the Pro Ride
>at Santa Anita. Have you looked into this?
>
>


>
>Andy

Excellent....and that is why Pioneer of the Nile is being retired...why is it the SA management turns a blind eye to this problem?

[PaceAdvantage]

Every time she runs I’m thankful I got to see her and hold “my” breath “we” will we see her again.I just don't understand the "holding my breath" part. That's not how I feel.

[PaceAdvantage]

We may have lost Cadillakin and Sid already...When did that happen, and how come I didn't get the memo? :lol:

[DanG]

I just don't understand the "holding my breath" part. That's not how I feel.
I didn’t mean it literally Mike.

These posts just go out unrehearsed and my lab refuses to proof read on his birthday.

[andymays]

Excellent....and that is why Pioneer of the Nile is being retired...why is it the SA management turns a blind eye to this problem?


Most people identify last years Breeders Cup and it's success with the Pro Ride and Santa Anita. They also spent a ton of money installing cushion track and when that didn't work out they dug up the base again and installed Pro Ride. Several million dollars were spent but with maintenance, weather, and usage the synthetic material breaks down and changes drastically. Guys with ego's as big as the ones who were involved in California Racing at the time have a hard time admitting a mistake no matter how big it is.

[Bochall]

I find it satisfying that Mr. Zayat, owner of Pioneerof The Nile, who was considering trying to block Rachel A from running in the Preakness, now can't run HIS horse. Hmmmmm.....maybe the Gods of racing and Karmic Equilibrium decided to deal Mr Zayat the hand he deserved. Don't forget that his reasons for keeping Rachel out were because she may not be able to handle the rigors of facing boys on 2wks rest(Eight Belles paranoia!). If the last place runner in the Ky Oaks were entered in the Preakness do you think he would have considered blocking her, citing her health as his main concern? HELL NO! Nothing against the horse himself. Pioneer will be fine and the ladies will visit in droves, as his pedigree is nice. Bottom line for me regarding Pioneer is that he NEVER ran a truly fast race in his life, and just wasn't good enough for the best of his crop. He reminds me of Ashado, who won many Gr Stakes, but never ran that fast.

[joanied]

Most people identify last years Breeders Cup and it's success with the Pro Ride and Santa Anita. They also spent a ton of money installing cushion track and when that didn't work out they dug up the base again and installed Pro Ride. Several million dollars were spent but with maintenance, weather, and usage the synthetic material breaks down and changes drastically. Guys with ego's as big as the ones who were involved in California Racing at the time have a hard time admitting a mistake no matter how big it is.

I agree 100%...they may as well have taken that money and tossed it down the sh***er.
I just mentioned in the thread about positives (Ziadie) that the powers that be are a bunch of weenies...it takes some courage to admit a mistake...and these guys that manage SA have none...they are all chickenshits...and they put their egos before anything else.

[joanied]

"These posts just go out unrehearsed and my lab refuses to proof read on his birthday."


DanG... HAPPY:jump: BIRTHDAY TO YOUR LABBY DOG :) ...you know Lab's get extra treats on their birthday;)

[DanG]

"These posts just go out unrehearsed and my lab refuses to proof read on his birthday."


DanG... HAPPY:jump: BIRTHDAY TO YOUR LABBY DOG :) ...you know Lab's get extra treats on their birthday;)
With my hand on a stack of bibles Joan; Dozer is getting cake tonight and his favorite chicken dinner.

What’s that fancy word “anthropomorphism” when you give human qualities to animals? Guilty as charged; :blush: always will love animals and the unconditional devotion they give back should never be taken for granted. End of fanatically dog loving sermon. :D

[joanied]

With my hand on a stack of bibles Joan; Dozer is getting cake tonight and his favorite chicken dinner.

What’s that fancy word “anthropomorphism” when you give human qualities to animals? Guilty as charged; :blush: always will love animals and the unconditional devotion they give back should never be taken for granted. End of fanatically dog loving sermon. :D

DanG...Oh, I beleive every word...and have no doubt that Dozer will thoroughly enjoy and devoure his chicken dinner and cake...every tasty morsel :D

Not sure about that fancy word...but I hear ya, and without getting all mushy about the subject...animals have always come first in my life...and always will....I think dogs are the perfect 'human' :ThmbUp:

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr3/jd1947/Emmett-Wood-River.jpg

Dozer...happy:jump: birthday from Emmett (and our other dog, Arwen)

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn’t mean it literally Mike.I didn't take it as literal...I took it as a sort of "worrying and hoping" kind of thing...I really don't think twice about it, which is what I was trying to say....

[DanG]

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr3/jd1947/Emmett-Wood-River.jpg

Dozer...happy:jump: birthday from Emmett (and our other dog, Arwen)
Great picture Joan! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Emmett would have loved our black lab (of 17 years!) named “Goldie”. Please don’t ask why a black lab was named “Goldie”; long story! :D

[DanG]

I didn't take it as literal...I took it as a sort of "worrying and hoping" kind of thing...I really don't think twice about it, which is what I was trying to say....
Now the hard part…I’m trying to remember what we were talking about. :D

[WinterTriangle]

I swear, seems just about every good one since we started out this Spring is injured and on the sidelines or going to the shed.


Yeah, pulll up my list of injured or out from Triple Crown Trail. I'll update it with PON. Most on the list are NOT pro-ride horses, so we can't use that as the big excuse.

Of course, people will just say "oh, it's just part of the game" and shrug.

Byt like one poster here says, it's almost come to be "expected" :confused: that 3/4 of the trip. crown trail horses will be off the trail before it's even run, and then more afterwards. I find that sad, don't you?

Too many things are wrong and nobody wants to stop the game long enough to fix it.......too much $$$$ involved.

[WinterTriangle]

Bottom line for me regarding Pioneer is that he NEVER ran a truly fast race in his life, and just wasn't good enough for the best of his crop. He reminds me of Ashado, who won many Gr Stakes, but never ran that fast.

Maybe not the *best*, but I look at PON's earnings, and what he accomplished on the track, and find myself nonplussed at the "not good enough" comment.

Esp. the "not good enough" followed by "never ran that fast", when so many saying in other topics, that breeding for speed alone is one of the things killing our horses.

As an aside, thought it funny that Musketier (GER) went off at long odds today in Man o' War, despite the fact the horse fires every time. The public never seems to get on the "consistent" horses. Just the speedballs :confused:

[WinterTriangle]

Joanied, you knew that Pioneer of the Nile was a very sickly colt early on, they didn't expect him to even survive.

"He got colic, and he had surgery a few weeks after he was born,” said Sonbol, who serves as Zayat Stables’ vice president. “He almost died, and then he had to have another operation a few months later. He had some adhesions in there from the first surgery, so they had to go back in there again......“We put him in the Keeneland yearling sale and at that point, Mr. Zayat had never seen him. When he saw him at the sale, he said, ‘What the hell are we putting that horse in the sale for; buy him back,’ so I kept on bidding until I bought him back.”

[Shelby]

"I think it was at Santa Anita. Remember Bruno's email about the Pro Ride?"

hey andymays... prob'ly right...I assume it would be on the SA injury list....if I could find the damned thing... ya know, one of the first things I thought about after reading the story...and after thinking about how bummed I felt...was Bruno's blog piece... I swear, when are 'they' gonna realize that they gotta replace that Pro:mad: Ride and get back to dirt...so far, nada has been prooven that the synthetic is safer, and we have all these soft tissue things going on...and another really good horse bites the dust...I am sooooooo mad :bang:
Pioneer was my early pick for the BC Classic. Crap, crap, crap:(

I totally agree, Joanie. What is it going to take to get the damn synthetic to go away????:(

Pioneer, I'll miss seeing you race :(

[joanied]

DanG,

"Great picture Joan! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Emmett would have loved our black lab (of 17 years!) named “Goldie”. Please don’t ask why a black lab was named “Goldie”; long story! :D
__________________
Dan G"


Thanks...Emmett doesn't Duck Hunt (just Upland birds)...but he loves the water...and finding sticks...No doubt he & Goldie would have been a great pair!!
Someday, ya gotta tell her story:) We had a Black Lab lived til he was 15...and he had Epilepsy all his life...he was on meds lifetime for it...and so it turned out his name was appropriate...Stoney...was always 'stoned':D

[joanied]

Winter Triangle,
(better not use all your post quotes:eek: )....
I did read through your list of MIA horses...man, I thought last Spring as the weeks went on, we'd get 'lucky' this year and not have too many fall by the wayside...wrong!! Seems like the same song & dance every year... I did know about Pioneer being such a sickly foal...Colic in foals is such a horror...you really have to keep both eyes open when you have foals...it's a testament to the colt that he was enough of a fighter to get through it all...

and I agree with your reply to Bochall...not fast enough? It is all the speed we're breeding into these horses that is ruining them...and the very lack of good bone...I mentioned somewhere in a post about this very thing...I'd much rather see our horses slow down a bit and last longer on the track...do we really need horses to run the mile in 1:33...I don't think so...and visually, having horses run a little slower will not take away from the excitment and beauty of tese animals...it just might keep them healthier longer..."part of the game" is total BS.

[joanied]

I find it satisfying that Mr. Zayat, owner of Pioneerof The Nile, who was considering trying to block Rachel A from running in the Preakness, now can't run HIS horse. Hmmmmm.....maybe the Gods of racing and Karmic Equilibrium decided to deal Mr Zayat the hand he deserved. Don't forget that his reasons for keeping Rachel out were because she may not be able to handle the rigors of facing boys on 2wks rest(Eight Belles paranoia!). If the last place runner in the Ky Oaks were entered in the Preakness do you think he would have considered blocking her, citing her health as his main concern? HELL NO! Nothing against the horse himself. Pioneer will be fine and the ladies will visit in droves, as his pedigree is nice. Bottom line for me regarding Pioneer is that he NEVER ran a truly fast race in his life, and just wasn't good enough for the best of his crop. He reminds me of Ashado, who won many Gr Stakes, but never ran that fast.

"Speed kills"....and it's killing our horses as a breed...sorry, Bochall, but gotta dis agree with you on this...Pioneer ran fast enough to win...he accomplished more than enough in a short time...no one said he was the best of his crop...but he was sure as hell right there near the top of the list.
Are you of the mind set that a horse needs to be rode hard, just so he might run a little faster...are you of the mind that once a horse gets the lead, he needs to be whippped so he'll run as fast as he can under the wire...just for the sake of speed...I hope not, but sounds like that's your mantra...speed (at all costs)...there are many very good horses that run only as fast and far as necessary to win...and there ain't nothin' wrong with that...the win is what counts...time is an added bonus if a horse can set or equal a record without being abused in doing so.

As for Zayat and his so called try at keeping Rachel out of the Preakness...it takes two to tango...he was not alone in that...and most everyone was screaming about sending a filly out against the colts, ala Eight Belles...yet we all know that Eight Belles breakdown had diddley to do with her running against the colts...no, I don't think 'Karma' gave Pioneer his injury...I think it was the Pro Ride (Or maybe it would have happened anyway, but since it is a soft tissue injury, you have to be 95% certain it was the surface)...
oh, Ashado was a Champion and in a class of her own...she was exciting to see, a wonderful mare...I really could care less about how damned fast she ran...what she did was run like a, well, Champion!!
:)

[David-LV]

Jump on it Andy; I’m battled out. Especially on an issue where opinions are dug in like the beaches of Normandy.

Dan,

It is impossible that you are all battled out, I am just laying in the weeds (dirt) right now just waiting for more facts to keep coming in, in the biggest mistake ever undertaken in the ruination of the great sport of kings. :( :blush:

Facts sometimes change a person opinion and if I'm wrong I will be the first to admit it, but so far it looks like a slam dunk that in the end I'll be proven right in my opinion that the switch to synthetics was a scam from the word go.

_______
David-LV

[andymays]

Dan,

It is impossible that you are all battled out, I am just laying in the weeds (dirt) right now just waiting for more facts to keep coming in, in the biggest mistake ever undertaken in the ruination of the great sport of kings. :( :blush:

Facts sometimes change a person opinion and if I'm wrong I will be the first to admit it, but so far it looks like a slam dunk that in the end I'll be proven right in my opinion that the switch to synthetics was a scam from the word go.

_______
David-LV

The tide is changing David but not fast enough for me!

Dan, I had the urge to put up the Bruno email again but I thought of you! :)

[DanG]

David-LV ~ It is impossible that you are all battled out, I am just laying in the weeds (dirt) right now just waiting for more facts to keep coming in, in the biggest mistake ever undertaken in the ruination of the great sport of kings.
I know you’ll never give up the fight David; but I’ve already broken a New Years resolution talking about it this much…lol.

Andymays ~ I had the urge to put up the Bruno email again but I thought of you!
There you go Andy! I was starting to worry if I looked over your shoulder it might resemble Jack Nicholson in the shining…

“All work and no play makes ‘Bruno' a dull boy” :)
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/Reviews/shin/all%20work%20and%20no%20play%20makes%20jack%20a%20 dull%20boy.jpg

[classhandicapper]

Bottom line for me regarding Pioneer is that he NEVER ran a truly fast race in his life, and just wasn't good enough for the best of his crop. He reminds me of Ashado, who won many Gr Stakes, but never ran that fast.

The problem with this analysis is that pretty much no one runs fast on synthetics except on the rare occasions that the race conditions are not typical. I think the reputation of a lot of good horses is being hurt by the fact that their synth numbers aren't so impressive.

His Derby was a lot better than the figure and he ran so poorly in the Preakness, that was obviously not him. I would have liked to have seen him a few more times on dirt before pronouncing him as a mediocrity.

[Bochall]

I think you folks are misunderstanding me when I say that POTN never ran a truly fast race. I did not mean he had to be a frontrunning speedball (where did ya'll get that?). I am strictly speaking speed figures, NOT early speed. Point Given ran very fast races(got high speed figs) without being a frontrunner, so did Victory Gallop. Yes, Ashado was a champion, but surely you don't think she coulda handled Beautiful Pleasure or Escena or Silverbulletday. Yes,POTN won many Gr races but he didn't run that fast compared to other winners of those same Gr races in years past. Nor did he run that fast compared to the best of his generation. He was an afterthought in my mind until I Want Revenge, Quality Road and others defected. Both of whom woulda beaten POTN, in my opinion. Sorry, I did not mean to raise the ire of those who may be POTN fans. The move by Zayat and the Woolley camp was not very sporting, though.

[joanied]

Bochall.... OK, good that you explained yourself...now that you said what you meant to say in your original post...that you are talking about the speed figures...I get it.
But you know, Baffert had mentioned on several occassions that Pioneer was a grinding type runner and would do only hwat it took to win a race...so maybe his speed figures would never be that good...fact is, he was a very good horse and would have been one of the favorites in the BC Classic...you are right about his breeding career...I expect his book will fill fast. I am going to miss him, he was a fun colt to follow...and I feel really bad for Baffert...I know he was crushed by this.
Yes, I agree, Zayat & Allen were way off base in their ridiculous attempt at keeping RA out of the Preakness...
Ashado...two time Eclipse Award winner...I beleive she could have run with, and beat mares like Silverbulletday, Escena & Beautiful Pleasure...and beleive me, I was a huge fan of Beautiful Pleasure...

:) :) :)

[tucker6]

What do you mean "we" kemo sahbee?
If you had read "The Far Side" comic strip, an old Indian dictionary The Lone Ranger was reading says that you just called DanG a horses ass. :lol:

Maybe that was your intent. :lol:

[DanG]

If you had read "The Far Side" comic strip, an old Indian dictionary The Lone Ranger was reading says that you just called DanG a horses ass. :lol:

Maybe that was your intent. :lol:
Nice! :D

To really be authentic PA needs the Cherokee slang in my case; not the Apache.
http://69.89.21.80/%7Eemergin2/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/Kemosabe.JPG

[tucker6]

Nice! :D

To really be authentic PA needs the Cherokee slang in my case; not the Apache.
http://69.89.21.80/%7Eemergin2/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/Kemosabe.JPG
Double nice!! :ThmbUp: :lol: