MORE SANTOS PHOTOS

[PaceAdvantage]

Do these photos, from TWO different sources, clear Santos?? I think so....


www.msnbc.com/news/911875.asp?0cv=CB10

http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/6c2ee7df5e69e3/www.msnbc.com/news/1894938.jpg

[Dan Montilion]

PA

Thank you for being so diligent on this matter. Clearly the posting of these two photos should indeed put this over reaction to bed. Coupled with watching of the race and following the putting away of the whip made it very clear that this was shadows, angles and background that caused the illusion.

Unless Santos is the greatest slight of hand artist since Houdini. Or perhaps what we see is the second gun used in Dallas circa 1963. File this one with the moon hoax, Illuminati etc...

Dan Montilion

[Tom]

Is one touched up? And if so, which one?

[PaceAdvantage]

The photo on the right above is the ORIGINAL photo from the miami story (GETTY IMAGES). It's interesting that on the MSNBC site, this Getty Images photo shows even MORE CLEARLY that it is the silks showing through....more so than on Miami.com

Of course, the AP photo above completely dismisses this notion that he was carrying something else in that hand, as there is nothing BUT silks visible between his fingers where an object is "supposed" to reside.

LOOK AT THE GETTY IMAGE. You have the horse's ear, Bailey's silks, and a shadow coming together to create some illusion, which is BARELY an illusion if you sit and study it for more than 2 minutes....

If you want a real story, I'll post my stills from Derby 1995.....

[Pace Cap'n]

PA

"If you want a real story, I'll post my stills from Derby 1995....."

I, for one, would like to see them. I was sort of away from racing then.

[WINMANWIN]

After viewing them photos it's pretty clear that I jumped to conclusions, but after examing the photo that appeared at 1st, How could you not......excellent work with the photo's PA, I owe Jose Santos an apology.........:( But after his lousy rides today,
I'll save it.........:eek:

[GR1@HTR]

If Santos didn't have anything in his hand, then why did he say he did?

[PaceAdvantage]

Santos didn't say he did, the REPORTER said that Santos said he did. Big difference in my opinion.

"Santos acknowledged Friday he carried an object in his hand during the race and described it as a 'cue' ring to call the outriders"

This is not a direct quote from Santos, but a direct quote from the Frank Carlson and Clark Spencer, the reporters. We have no idea what was asked and what was answered here. Why didn't the reporter give us the actual quote from Santos where he supposedly said he was carrying a cue ring to call the outriders.

The "cue ring to contact the outriders" is a hearty laugh in and of itself, and just shows without a doubt that these reporters heard what they wanted to hear, and did not bother to get the facts straight.

[Tom]

I'll buy it. It looks like nothing.
But isn't that just a reflection on the integrity of racing when so many people are so ready to believe the Derby was fixed?
And your 1995 story (which I totally agree with you on) is just one reason why.
Racing refuses to clean its own house.
How many ex-track-goers are sitting in front of slot machines in casinos right now?

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't it weird how I can defend Santos to the hilt because I believe I see nothing in that photo, and I believe he was mis-quoted, yet at the same time I still believe the 1995 Derby was not investigated properly???

This Santos thing is a witch hunt. The other thing is a nice 5-10 second video.....LOL

[Tee]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Do these photos, from TWO different sources, clear Santos?? I think so....


www.msnbc.com/news/911875.asp?0cv=CB10

http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/6c2ee7df5e69e3/www.msnbc.com/news/1894938.jpg

Obviously these two photos were taken moments apart. One could take the side that there was an object & it was dropped. One could take the polar opposite stance & say there was never anything there in the first place.

This side by side photo could muddle the picture even more.

[Tom]

It loooks like he is whipping the horse behind him on the ear!
Isn't that a DQ????:rolleyes:

Never believe what you see in a picture.

[Tee]

Shadows play tricks

[karlskorner]

Now that we have seen the photos, let's look for the "cue ring" or Q Ray, or what ever it was translated as, find it yet, NO, it's on his left wrist. Ta Da

Let's notice how stretched out the web between thumb and index finger is. The butt end of a whip is approximately 1 and 1/2 inches across, even a small man's hand will wrap around that diameter, a child of 10 can wrap their hand around the butt end of a whip.

For the good of the industry, I hope they find him innocent Tuesday at the hearing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Here is something we can all do that will clear Santos once and for all.

Look at the picture on the left, the AP photo. Notice where the crease in Bailey's silks are in that photo. It's the crease where his arm would meet his shoulder. If you look where Bailey's arm meets his shoulder, you'll a big crease forming, with a shadow and all.

Now, take Santos' hand and move it over to the left, approximately where it is in the GETTY image photo. If you do that mentally, what kind of picture do you get?? Sort of looks EXACTLY like the Getty photo, eh??

I'm going to break out PhotoShop and do just that...I'll post the results right here in a few minutes...

[lousycapper]

Winners walking on hot coals never complain while losers walking barefoot on a pile rug always complain.

Is the Santos flap just another way to rationalize why a New York bred gelding won the Kentucky Derby? Get a life! Let's carry this further... what happened after the last time a gelding won, hmmmm? Yes, that right... the last depression. So is this a harbinger of another one? Yeezzeez!

-L.C.

[PaceAdvantage]

OK, so my experiment with PhotoShop is complete. Obviously, I will not be able to perfectly reproduce the Getty photo by altering the AP photo, simply because the angles are slightly different, and Bailey is in a slightly different position in the Getty photo, and different wrinkles obviously appear in his silks, but I think you may get the point here. Please also note the difference in colors between the two photos...the colors are much deeper and richer (and therefore darker) in the photo on the right.

ORIGINAL:
http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/6c2ee7df5e69e3/www.msnbc.com/news/1894938.jpg

TOUCHED UP:

[lousycapper]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
OK, so my experiment with PhotoShop is complete. Obviously, I will not be able to perfectly reproduce the Getty photo by altering the AP photo, simply because the angles are slightly different, and Bailey is in a slightly different position in the Getty photo, and different wrinkles obviously appear in his silks, but I think you may get the point here. Please also note the difference in colors between the two photos...the colors are much deeper and richer (and therefore darker) in the photo on the right.

ORIGINAL:
http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/6c2ee7df5e69e3/www.msnbc.com/news/1894938.jpg

TOUCHED UP:

====================

Phooey,

I thought you'd doctor the photo to show that Santos was actually holding a stun-gun in his hand. Wouldn't that make a few headlines? Especially if it was posted on one of the news-nets. Heh, heh!

-L.C.

[doophus]

PA...

Good job!

Are you really Drew Pearson? If so, get to DC soon and get those columns re-started.

[Early]

PA

When I first heard of this story and saw the photo I thought it was absurd. I kept wondering what people were looking at. Seemed like a classic case of mass mind manipulation to me. See the device? See it? There it is! Oh, yes, we all see it clearly now.

There is nothing there but whip and air.

Thank you for all your efforts on this. Even people wanting to see the buzzer will have trouble now.

Now I have to go back to my regular board, where people still 'see' the battery.

[WINMANWIN]

Empire Maker's Return to Preakness Field Shortlived
by Steve Haskin
Date Posted: 5/10/03 10:41:22 PM
Last Updated: 5/10/03 10:41:22 PM

Just hours after saying that Empire Maker would point to the Preakness Stakes, trainer Bobby Frankel had second thoughts, and as a result, the Kentucky Derby runner-up is back out of the Preakness picture.Frankel, who left for New York Saturday evening, was quoted in the Associated Press as saying, "I don't think there'll be any change, so I'll stick to my original plans."

After hearing about the Kentucky Racing commission's investigation into the possibilty that Derby winner Funny Cide's rider Jose Santos was carrying a suspicious object in the race, Frankel and owner Juddmonte Farms decided to put Empire Maker back in the Preakness picture, just in case there was a disqualification. By being placed first, that would have given Empire Maker a shot at sweeping the Triple Crown.

But after talking to several people who have studied the photo, and learning of likely miscommunication between Santos and the Miami Herald, which first reported the controversy, Frankel felt there wasn't enough evidence against Santos, and withdrew Empire Maker from consideration once again.

That means either Peace Rules or Midas Eyes, both owned by Edmund Gann, will be Frankel's lone representative in the second leg of the Triple Crown.

[kenwoodall]

I think Santos was hitting Bailey in the nose!!

[Lefty]

To me the picture that means anything is the video of Derby itself. Santos is whipping and driving, left hand whipping, right hand on the reins, How could he be buzzing the horse? The buzzer needs to be pressed into the horse. And as Gordon Jones pointed out, you don't buzz a horse unless you've "schooled" the horse with the buzzer. Buzz a horse for the first time and he might go through the rail, hop in air, anything... So now in order for the horse to be "schooled" the trainer must be in on it. I don't believe any of this drivel. Santos has been a "quality" jock for yrs and I blve in his innocence.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by karlskorner
Now that we have seen the photos, let's look for the "cue ring" or Q Ray, or what ever it was translated as, find it yet, NO, it's on his left wrist. Ta Da

Let's notice how stretched out the web between thumb and index finger is. The butt end of a whip is approximately 1 and 1/2 inches across, even a small man's hand will wrap around that diameter, a child of 10 can wrap their hand around the butt end of a whip.

For the good of the industry, I hope they find him innocent Tuesday at the hearing.

That isn't the web between his thumb and index finger that is stretched. Look more closely. It is the web between his index finger and his middle finger, the thumb is under the stick. The stick is being switched at the time of the photo. The stretching is happening in the photo because the stick is being maneuvered.

When you look at the pictures keeping in mind that the whip is being switched at the point of the photo, it becomes quite clear that it is almost impossible for there to be anything else in the hand.

I'm not sure what Santos was saying was in his hand, but these pictures makes it appear that there is nothing there but whip.

[lousycapper]

That's what the headlines should read but, most likely the article will be buried on page 101 of a 92 page newspaper. Unless they [the stewards] can come up with really solid evidence then all concerned will return work and it will be business as usual. Of course, non-believers will blame Santos every time they lose a race on a horse he is riding. Grampa is right; nothing changes in this business. Heh, heh!

-L.C.

[linrom1]

I already can't stand Santos, so even if his ride in the Derby was on the level(?), he is certainly guilty of something else. Isn't he?

[Tom]

So, EM bounced off his Derby performance. Twice.
Bounced into the Preakness then bounced out.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by linrom1
I already can't stand Santos, so even if his ride in the Derby was on the level(?), he is certainly guilty of something else. Isn't he?

What the hell does that mean? What about him can't you stand?

[linrom1]

Like when was the last time that a first rate and reputable trainer like Mott, Frankel, Pletcher, Walden used him? Look at the trainers that use him.

[cato]

hmmm..he just won The Derby on a high odds horse in what was a great trip and great stretch drive...many people have attributed the win to the great trip the horse had which should be attributed in large part to the jock

give the guy a break!

Cheers, Cato

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by linrom1
Like when was the last time that a first rate and reputable trainer like Mott, Frankel, Pletcher, Walden used him? Look at the trainers that use him.

If I am not mistaken he was the leading rider in the country for four years in the 80's and got hurt pretty bad in 1992. He sat out to heal and came back and has been in the top 10-15 the last ten years or so. I am speaking of earnings. The supposed knock on him is that he waits too long to move horses and seems to get a bunch of troubled trips for that reason. But he says he is just conservative unless he knows he has tons of horse. If that is the worse thing they can say about him, so be it. I think he has won the Belmont on Lemon Drop kid and of course last years Breeders Cup Classic. I would say he is doing pretty well. What is there not to like? The only thing I complain about when it comes to riders is; They don't have a decent clock in their head or they whine when they don't win on the favorite. I wish Jerry Bailey would have just shut up after the Derby. He can let Frankel do all the whining. :cool:

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by linrom1
Like when was the last time that a first rate and reputable trainer like Mott, Frankel, Pletcher, Walden used him? Look at the trainers that use him.


What does that prove? Many, many times getting a mount with a particular trainer comes down to politics and jockey agents.

Look at Pincay...for a good amount of time, he was getting crap mounts, and nobody could figure it out....did that make him a bad rider?

I don't really get your point.

But I do know something. All of those "first rate and reputable" trainers you listed, when put together, don't have what Santos has....a KENTUCKY DERBY VICTORY!! LOL

[superfecta]

You made me feel better with your investigative reporting.I can see that it was an optical illusion.And it also makes me mad because it could have been a black mark if no other photos were available and I would have been one of those convinced it was a foriegn object.Shoddy work by the Miami Herald by not showing us the whole story and pictures .

[WINMANWIN]

I remember some yrs ago trainer phil johnson was ripping Jose Santos for bad rides and he said I will never use santos again.
He really had a dislike for him, and was surprised that he
said his true feelings on an otb show. Anyway, after his breeders
cup victory, I started thinking back, and remembered what
Johnson said years ago, and concluded, In this game Emotions change. 1 day they love them jocks, other days they hate them. TIME HEALS IN LIFE, AND AT THE TRACK !!!.....