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View Full Version : Woodbine Suspends Turbo Charged Pick 6


Cangamble
07-08-2009, 02:33 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol: They lost around $420,000 on it in three weeks. And now more people than ever are aware of Woodbine's huge track takeouts.

TORONTO, July 8 - Woodbine Entertainment Group (WEG) is suspending its Turbo-charged Pick 6 wager promotion...for now.

"We're putting the Turbo-charged aspect of the Pick 6 wager on hold, but are considering bringing it back for special events or something more regular later in the season," said Sean Pinsonneault, WEG's Vice-President of Wagering Services.

The Turbo-charged Pick 6, a bet in which horseplayers are asked to select the winners of six consecutive races, was offered over three straight Sundays, beginning on June 21, the day of the 150th edition of the Queen's Plate.

As promotion for the Turbo-charged Pick 6, WEG added $150,000 to the carryover. If the Pick 6 was won, the pool was re-seeded with another $150,000 for the following week.

"We wanted to promote our Pick 6 wager and felt seeding the pool with $150,000 would raise eyebrows, and it sure did," continued Pinsonneault. "It created the buzz we were looking for and encouraged racing fans and horsemen that weren't already familiar with the Woodbine Thoroughbred product to experience our racing with consistently large fields and one of the largest purse structures in North American racing."

The Turbo-charged Pick 6 was paid out on each Sunday the added $150,000 was offered.

On the first afternoon (June 21) of the bet, one fan, from the United States, collected $203,499.40. On June 28, another American hit it for $153,884.20. On July 5, four happy fans, three from Canada and another from the U.S., had the Pick 6 for $46,982.90 each.

"It would have been nice to see it carryover a few days from our perspective but clearly some pretty savvy players were able to walk away with some significant jackpots," said Pinsonneault, "and that's ultimately what we were trying to create. We're happy for those that cashed tickets on the Turbo-charged Pick 6."

A $2 Pick 6 wager will remain on the Woodbine betting menu every Sunday without the seeded carryover beginning July 12 and continue to cover the final six races on the Thoroughbred card.

Woodbine racing is available Wednesdays at 6:45 p.m. and Thursday through Sundays at 1 p.m. until December 6.

Watcher
07-08-2009, 02:38 PM
On June 28, another American hit it for $153,884.20.
What's the takeout on this promotion? Seems like little was bet if this was the payoff after a re-seed of $150k?

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 02:45 PM
What's the takeout on this promotion? Seems like little was bet if this was the payoff after a re-seed of $150k?
25%.

They averaged around 75,000 in new money a week.

But if you do the math, and assume half came from outlets that bought Woodbine's signal, and you take the horsemen into consideration, the bottom line is that they wound up with around 9k a week, and maybe not even that.

turfnsport
07-08-2009, 02:47 PM
Instead of suspending the wager, why didn't they think to just raise the takeout? :lol:

rrbauer
07-08-2009, 03:40 PM
It speaks to the lack of understanding that Woodbine management has concerning the game and the game's customers. They were creating a pool that was primarily made up of "found money". If they wanted to get carryovers going they should've added like $10K every day that it wasn't hit until the pool reached $100K. Then the growth of the pool and the players who left money in previous days plus new players coming in would give them the carryover fever that they were looking for. Instead they created an overnight bonanza and the players picked their pocket. I'd like to know the ticket sizes of the winning plays.

macguy
07-08-2009, 03:58 PM
It speaks to the lack of understanding that Woodbine management has concerning the game and the game's customers. They were creating a pool that was primarily made up of "found money". If they wanted to get carryovers going they should've added like $10K every day that it wasn't hit until the pool reached $100K. Then the growth of the pool and the players who left money in previous days plus new players coming in would give them the carryover fever that they were looking for. Instead they created an overnight bonanza and the players picked their pocket. I'd like to know the ticket sizes of the winning plays.

See here:

On the first afternoon (June 21) of the bet, one fan, from the United States, collected $203,499.40. On June 28, another American hit it for $153,884.20. On July 5, four happy fans, three from Canada and another from the U.S., had the Pick 6 for $46,982.90 each.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 04:09 PM
It speaks to the lack of understanding that Woodbine management has concerning the game and the game's customers. They were creating a pool that was primarily made up of "found money". If they wanted to get carryovers going they should've added like $10K every day that it wasn't hit until the pool reached $100K. Then the growth of the pool and the players who left money in previous days plus new players coming in would give them the carryover fever that they were looking for. Instead they created an overnight bonanza and the players picked their pocket. I'd like to know the ticket sizes of the winning plays.
The first ticket was hit by someone who bet 5 G's, the second one was scooped up by someone who bet just over $500. Not sure about the 4 winners last week.

rrbauer
07-08-2009, 05:05 PM
The first ticket was hit by someone who bet 5 G's, the second one was scooped up by someone who bet just over $500. Not sure about the 4 winners last week.

Maybe you know the players and can vouch for the amounts, however what happens often is that we hear about the size of the ticket that held the winning combination and not the size of the play that the winning ticket was part of.
The latter situation is very difficult to find out unless you know the principals
involved.

Most serious P6 players play many different tickets that are put together under the mantra that "all of the horses don't have the same chance of winning". Ergo, horses with the greatest chances of winning (according to the player's assesment) will find their way on to the most number of combinations/tickets. This is not to say that there aren't still players who will put in a single large ticket that does not differentiate the chances of winning of the horses being used and that might be the case with the $5K ticket.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 05:11 PM
I heard WEG broadcasters on Saturday or Sunday divulge the info.
In fact, it verifies this article about the $500 ticket:
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Press-Release/article/bettor-wins-whopping-153884-turbo-charged-pick-6/

InsideThePylons-MW
07-08-2009, 05:54 PM
Once again, the racetracks go way above the call of duty to help the horseplayer and the horseplayer gives them the finger!

rrbauer
07-08-2009, 05:55 PM
I heard WEG broadcasters on Saturday or Sunday divulge the info.
In fact, it verifies this article about the $500 ticket:
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Press-Release/article/bettor-wins-whopping-153884-turbo-charged-pick-6/

The fact that this ticket ended with two singles, makes me think that it was part of a larger play and that there were companion tickets that mixed the horses differently with an "end game" involving more than two singles. Again, only the winning ticket is made public and not the winning PLAY.

However, a lot of players go deep early in order to keep their play alive and then "gamble" in the end game. A contrarian strategy would limit the selections in the early game and then spread towards the end, the idea being that if you get there, you want to make sure you take down the prize.

I understand CG that you're simply reporting what is on the airwaves for public consumption....my point being that it may not be the whole story.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 05:58 PM
Once again, the racetracks go way above the call of duty to help the horseplayer and the horseplayer gives them the finger!
Excuse me. They did this for themselves. This is the same organization that marks up takeouts from Churchill from 19% to 27%.
This brainchild of an idea was to try to suck more people into playing their 27% takeouts. Nothing but a bait and switch.

You really think they did this to help the player????? Maybe if it was Keeneland. But not an organization that goes out of its way to make sure Canadians are FORCED to play with them and their marked up takeouts.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 05:59 PM
The fact that this ticket ended with two singles, makes me think that it was part of a larger play and that there were companion tickets that mixed the horses differently with an "end game" involving more than two singles. Again, only the winning ticket is made public and not the winning PLAY.

However, a lot of players go deep early in order to keep their play alive and then "gamble" in the end game. A contrarian strategy would limit the selections in the early game and then spread towards the end, the idea being that if you get there, you want to make sure you take down the prize.

I understand CG that you're simply reporting what is on the airwaves for public consumption....my point being that it may not be the whole story.
I spent $24 that day, and had the first five winners. The last four were chalk. I keyed three of them, and tried to beat the chalk in the last with two horses.
I think it was probably his only ticket.

InsideThePylons-MW
07-08-2009, 06:01 PM
However, a lot of players go deep early in order to keep their play alive and then "gamble" in the end game. A contrarian strategy would limit the selections in the early game and then spread towards the end, the idea being that if you get there, you want to make sure you take down the prize.

C'mon Richard....get your P-6 jargon updated

The funnel ticket and the Christmas tree ticket

InsideThePylons-MW
07-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Excuse me. They did this for themselves. This is the same organization that marks up takeouts from Churchill from 19% to 27%.
This brainchild of an idea was to try to suck more people into playing their 27% takeouts. Nothing but a bait and switch.

You really think they did this to help the player????? Maybe if it was Keeneland. But not an organization that goes out of its way to make sure Canadians are FORCED to play with them and their marked up takeouts.

C'mon CG...put your sense of humor hat on.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=708598#post708598

rrbauer
07-08-2009, 06:03 PM
This brainchild of an idea was to try to suck more people into playing their 27% takeouts. Nothing but a bait and switch.

.

Seems like they ran out of bait!

:lol:

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 06:06 PM
C'mon CG...put your sense of humor hat on.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=708598#post708598
Sorry about that. I thought you went temporarily insane for a minute:)

DeanT
07-08-2009, 06:46 PM
What was your thinking CG when you thought this would do ok? I never asked you why.

CBedo
07-08-2009, 06:48 PM
C'mon Richard....get your P-6 jargon updated

The funnel ticket and the Christmas tree ticketI thought it was the Pam Anderson ticket and the J-Lo ticket?

InsideThePylons-MW
07-08-2009, 06:51 PM
I thought it was the Pam Anderson ticket and the J-Lo ticket?

That could be the updated version to my 20+ yr old version.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 06:54 PM
What was your thinking CG when you thought this would do ok? I never asked you why.
I thought that it would be too hard to be hit, and I also thought it would have attracted more money.

As it turns out, they got really unlucky (which is part stupidity) because by doing it on Sunday they avoided the more chaotic cheap maiden claiming races with full fields. And the races the last two weeks turned out to be very formful type of races. I even had 5 of 6 both times, and I can go back years and years and I am usually lucky if I get 4 parts going 3 by 3 by 3, etc.

I spent $24 two weeks ago on one ticket, and hit 5 of 6 twice. Last week I did 4 tickets for a total of $120, and on one of them I hit 5 of 6.

But with only around 70k in new money a week on average, this could never have worked out in a million years. Queen's Plate day was the key, and someone fluked it that day.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 06:57 PM
I should add is that what we learned here is that there are people who are pretty good at handicapping Woodbine, but they are avoiding it like the plague, and I think it is a combo of high takeouts and high signal fees (which makes rebate shops and whales cringe).

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 07:04 PM
Dean, I just went over your blog post and my blog post. You were right because you said it wasn't marketed enough and it wasn't going to get enough money bet on it to work out.

I thought they would get a pool of around half a million on Queen's Plate Day because of the positive takeout created.

The reality is that most people just don't give a crap about Woodbine. And it isn't the surface, because California seems to do quite well, and if they did one of these seed thingies, they would do even better.

Imriledup
07-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Once again, the racetracks go way above the call of duty to help the horseplayer and the horseplayer gives them the finger!

If Woodbine wanted to help the horseplayer, they would open up their signal to any outlet that wanted it.

Imriledup
07-08-2009, 09:09 PM
I should add is that what we learned here is that there are people who are pretty good at handicapping Woodbine, but they are avoiding it like the plague, and I think it is a combo of high takeouts and high signal fees (which makes rebate shops and whales cringe).

Whales love high takeout rates because their rebate is high. I'm not even sure Woodbine is available to rebate shops, i was under the impression it was not.

DeanT
07-08-2009, 09:12 PM
About five years ago they cut off all the shops and a few other outlets. Handle went down from there. It was a curious decision to say the least. I asked them about why they did it once and got no answer. I think it was because the CEO wanted it and no one would disagree with him.

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 09:22 PM
About five years ago they cut off all the shops and a few other outlets. Handle went down from there. It was a curious decision to say the least. I asked them about why they did it once and got no answer. I think it was because the CEO wanted it and no one would disagree with him.
Like you said, Woodbine executives know how to run a monopoly...........but they aren't a monopoly anymore. They have no clue how to run a competitive business.

InsideThePylons-MW
07-08-2009, 09:22 PM
About five years ago they cut off all the shops and a few other outlets. Handle went down from there. It was a curious decision to say the least. I asked them about why they did it once and got no answer. I think it was because the CEO wanted it and no one would disagree with him.

Kinda like a King (Stronach/Willmot) that beheads anyone who disagrees with him?

Cangamble
07-08-2009, 09:27 PM
Kinda like a King (Stronach/Willmot) that beheads anyone who disagrees with him?
I must have been in a daze all weekend, but it was brought to my attention that Willmot wound up winning a race on the weekend.

It was a five betting interest race with a same owner entry.

The only time I ever see five betting interest races go at Woodbine is when they are non claiming events.

This one was a $25,000 claimer.

Sure, it was a very close race, even an exciting race....but you probably won't see another 5 betting interest claiming race go for years....unless, Kinghaven has a horse in the race.:D