Are there any horseplayers in the Hall of Fame?

[Imriledup]

I was on the T bred hall of fame website and found this bit of information you might consider digesting.

As of Hall of Fame Day 2007, members include 176 Thoroughbreds, 88 jockeys, and 84 trainers. All are racing heroes.

I don't see any bettors on this list. There must be some bettors who have wagered over 50 million lifetime, aren't these people heroes also? Think of how much money a person who bets 50 mil has contributed to purses, keeping people employed, etc.

To me, that's a hero.

Lets induct a horseplayer one of these days.

[ManeMediaMogul]

Bobby Frankel. The man launched his career with a $200 parlay when he was walking hots.

Charlie Whittingham. Once sent me to the windows to bet $400 on a filly he saddled. She paid $86 I believe. "I bet out of respect for the trainer," he said later.

Laz Barrera. Loved Pick six carryovers...no doubt an homage to his days at Agua Caliente where it all began.

[DanG]

Could not agree more Imriledup; long…long overdue. HANA gets to nominate X number of players each year and Harvey Pack gets to master the ceremony.

I heard it defended that none of our “major” sports have inducted fans in their halls, but it’s hard to deny our direct participation funding the show. Take away live gate and you still have a massive TV contract for an NFL franchise to fall back on. Take away our gambling dollars and you have a handful of blueblood owners racing against each other similar to Steeplechase.

BTW Mane; when my Brother worked for the late Willard Proctor he and Whittingham were close and Charlie was a pretty serious bettor as you said. He especially bet out on his younger stock after he “educated” them in their first couple races. Proctor btw touted my brother only 3 times in about a year’s time and all 3 won.

[Greyfox]

Are there any customers in:
1. the NFL Hall of Fame
2. the Baseball Hall of Fame
3. the NBA Hall of Fame.

What criteria would you use to decide who was a Hall of Fame customer vs just an ordinary rail bird?

Should a category for famous touts be included?


With 20,000 and more at bigger ovals on weekends, how would you identify the elite from the riff raff?


Would we, the betting public, get to see the nominations each year, and mail in our votes?

[fmolf]

Are there any customers in:
1. the NFL Hall of Fame
2. the Baseball Hall of Fame
3. the NBA Hall of Fame.

What criteria would you use to decide who was a Hall of Fame customer vs just an ordinary rail bird?

Should a category for famous touts be included?


With 20,000 and more at bigger ovals on weekends, how would you identify the elite from the riff raff?


Would we, the betting public, get to see the nominations each year, and mail in our votes?I am thinking that people who have had an impact on the game from a handicapping standpoint.Pittsburgh Phil for starters.Then maybe Beyer,like him or hate him he changed the game tremendously.Steve Crist for his work with the racing times and then the drf,he has had a great impact on the way information is presented to handicappers.Others that come to mind are Ainslie...the first real handicapping author who brought up a generation of handicappers with the written word.....Quirin for his pure mathematical genius....Quinn,Mitchell,Scott,Taulbot all forward thinkers with unique and differing methods.

[Greyfox]

I am thinking that people who have had an impact on the game from a handicapping standpoint.Pittsburgh Phil for starters.Then maybe Beyer,like him or hate him he changed the game tremendously.Steve Crist for his work with the racing times and then the drf,he has had a great impact on the way information is presented to handicappers.Others that come to mind are Ainslie...the first real handicapping author who brought up a generation of handicappers with the written word.....Quirin for his pure mathematical genius....Quinn,Mitchell,Scott,Taulbot all forward thinkers with unique and differing methods.

Then your criteria would be contributors to handicapping theory - authors and educators.

[DanG]

What criteria would you use to decide who was a Hall of Fame customer vs just an ordinary rail bird?

It is a tough proposition. So many of the great players in this game operate from the shadows. The best player I know will someday go off to the great walking ring in the sky and outside of a few people and his family he will be anonymous in our game.

Off the top of my up too late head…

• HANA nominates.
• PA nominates.
• Major data providers nominate.
• Given permission by the customer / ADW’s can nominate.
• Handicapping contests (and NTRA tour) play a major role.
• Special wing for 7 figure pick-6 winners assuming they didn’t play it after the 4th leg. ;)

All under the pretense of player permission of course, because many in this game do not seek any attention what so ever.

Unlike some whom are a little more outgoing…
http://www.crashlander.com/images/v_thefinalbattle.jpg

[Greyfox]

It is a tough proposition. So many of the great players in this game operate from the shadows. The best player I know will someday go off to the great walking ring in the sky and outside of a few people and his family he will be anonymous in our game.



You've hit the nail on the head.

The problem is that the Horse Racing Hall of Fame is about Fame.

Some top horse players are definitely in the shadows, at home on their computers, or wherever.
Then there are big fish in small ponds. A top player at Finger lakes may not be very well known at Santa Anita.

Having said that, I've looked up The Poker Hall of Fame.
Poker though puts the gambler front and center under the public eye.

Here is what I've discovered about it:

"Since its inception in 1979, the Hall of Fame has honored twenty-two gamblers, one for each year, with the exception of 1993. All but two, Hoyle and Hickok, were twentieth-century card players, and many of them road gamblers who followed the game where it would take them. There are six living Hall-of-Famers, enshrined alongside other members of poker's elite at the display at the Horseshoe.
Selection criteria for the Hall of Fame are straightforward and the standards are high.

A gambler must have played poker against acknowledged top competition.
Played for high stakes.
Played consistently well, gained the respect of peers.
And stood the test of time.

[fmolf]

It is a tough proposition. So many of the great players in this game operate from the shadows. The best player I know will someday go off to the great walking ring in the sky and outside of a few people and his family he will be anonymous in our game.

Off the top of my up too late head…

• HANA nominates.
• PA nominates.
• Major data providers nominate.
• Given permission by the customer / ADW’s can nominate.
• Handicapping contests (and NTRA tour) play a major role.
• Special wing for 7 figure pick-6 winners assuming they didn’t play it after the 4th leg. ;)

All under the pretense of player permission of course, because many in this game do not seek any attention what so ever.

Unlike some whom are a little more outgoing…
http://www.crashlander.com/images/v_thefinalbattle.jpg
Outstanding picture!I am quite sure that most living successful players would shy away from any accolades of that sort.I remember reading Scatoni's book "six secrets of successful gamblers" a few of the horseplayers interviewed for the book requested anonymity.Perhaps this is the reason they are so successful....small egos...supreme patience...focused only on the task at hand and not some future award or nomination.

[cj's dad]

There never will be if the nominee has to wear a suit and tie and be clean shaven at the induction ceremonies.

[Rutgers]

If the HOF were to expand categories they would probably first open it up to owners and breeders(i.e. the Hancocks and the Wrights), track owners and executives(i.e. Charles Strub), racing officials and writers/reporters (i.e. Joe Hirsch) before they opened it up to "fans".

If they did open it up writers/reports, I think they would need to have a place for Andrew Beyer and Steven Crist(two men with a reputation of making an occasional wager) for their writing and reporting as they both had a postive impact shape and development of the game.

Which is why most organizations have HOF, to recognize people (or horses) that had a noticeable positive impact on the game.

But I doubt they would ever open it up to fans. The tracks and the industry as a whole, in theory, do not care if an individual horseplayer is successful or not, they only care how much all the horseplayers together wager.

Plus one big problem they would have is there are no official statistics for handicappers, so there is no easy way to prove handicapper X wager Y amount for a ROI of Z over a period XYZ years.

[Greyfox]

Plus one big problem they would have is there are no official statistics for handicappers, so there is no easy way to prove handicapper X wager Y amount for a ROI of Z over a period XYZ years.


I agree with you.
But thinking about this a bit has led me to the possibility that it would be a nice gesture of the Hall of Fame to put the Annual Winner of the National Handicapping Contests photo in a side section?
The contest is open to all.
It's public.
We know the winner.

[jballscalls]

horse racing also one of the only sports that doesn't honor their announcers in their hall of fame :)

[badcompany]

So many of the great players in this game operate from the shadows.

Yeah, I guess you put it that way.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1RHnC61X0oE/SPTlu-M7B-I/AAAAAAAAADQ/XlPdWpgrNuw/s400/Dumpster+Diving.jpg

[fmolf]

I agree with you.
But thinking about this a bit has led me to the possibility that it would be a nice gesture of the Hall of Fame to put the Annual Winner of the National Handicapping Contests photo in a side section?
The contest is open to all.
It's public.
We know the winner.
I think it would be an outstanding idea to acknowledge the people who are the engine that drives the bus of this game.Without us the people who wager on and enjoy this game their is no game!

[DanG]

Yeah, I guess you put it that way.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1RHnC61X0oE/SPTlu-M7B-I/AAAAAAAAADQ/XlPdWpgrNuw/s400/Dumpster+Diving.jpg

LOL... :D

Fortunately your attitude dominates gamblers and it’s actually a self fulfilling prophecy that more aren’t in the black. Amazing how that perception changes when you meet successful / hard working people.

Seems like we’ve had this conversation once or maybe 364 times. ;)

[kenwoodallpromos]

I am thinking that people who have had an impact on the game from a handicapping standpoint.Pittsburgh Phil for starters.Then maybe Beyer,like him or hate him he changed the game tremendously.Steve Crist for his work with the racing times and then the drf,he has had a great impact on the way information is presented to handicappers.Others that come to mind are Ainslie...the first real handicapping author who brought up a generation of handicappers with the written word.....Quirin for his pure mathematical genius....Quinn,Mitchell,Scott,Taulbot all forward thinkers with unique and differing methods.
Let's see- Pittsburgh Phil and Ainslie did not lend their real names to the sport; Beyer admittedly did not invent his system; How much did the others bet?
I would rather see Pick winners named "Fan of the (day, week, month)".
Of course, we just had someone honored as a handicapper by a track and he was trashed on this forum...no thanks, keep fans and bettors in the shadows where they want to be.

[badcompany]

LOL... :D

Fortunately your attitude dominates gamblers and it’s actually a self fulfilling prophecy that more aren’t in the black. Amazing how that perception changes when you meet successful / hard working people.

Seems like we’ve had this conversation once or maybe 364 times. ;)

I wish I didn't have this attitude towards horseplayers. I'd love to be able to point to the horse-playing equivalent of this young guy, but I can't:


Bluff Power Ranking: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/) 17th
2009 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp) 2,287th
2008 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2008) 1st
2007 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2007) 1,400th
<LI>Earnings: $5,172,452 <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: #660000">WSOP Bracelets: 2
Birthdate: 10/10/1974
Birthplace: Hue, Vietnam
Resides: Stockton, CA

Nicknamed Razor
Bluff Magazine's 2008 Player of the Year
John Phan's birth name is Bon Phan.

[miesque]

Yeah, I guess you put it that way.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1RHnC61X0oE/SPTlu-M7B-I/AAAAAAAAADQ/XlPdWpgrNuw/s400/Dumpster+Diving.jpg


Some of the conversations in this thread, along with this picture, bring to mind something I have thought for a long time, that horseplayers as a whole are really in need of an image change. Public perception of horseplayers combined with all the stereotypes really detracts from horseplayers getting the proper respect and recognition they deserve as a group, not to mention it really is counterproductive to attracting new horseplayers and fresh blood to the game.

[DanG]

I wish I didn't have this attitude towards horseplayers. I'd love to be able to point to the horse-playing equivalent of this young guy, but I can't:


Bluff Power Ranking: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/) 17th
2009 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp) 2,287th
2008 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2008) 1st
2007 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2007) 1,400th
<LI>Earnings: $5,172,452 <LI style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: #660000">WSOP Bracelets: 2
Birthdate: 10/10/1974
Birthplace: Hue, Vietnam
Resides: Stockton, CA

Nicknamed Razor
Bluff Magazine's 2008 Player of the Year
John Phan's birth name is Bon Phan.
You haven’t lived in Vegas. Trust me; more then a few poker brats have literally resembled your photograph in the dumpster. This myth that everyone is getting wealthy from poker is incredibly exaggerated.

[ryesteve]

I wish I didn't have this attitude towards horseplayers. I'd love to be able to point to the horse-playing equivalent of this young guy, but I can't:


Bluff Power Ranking: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/) 17th
2009 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp) 2,287th
2008 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2008) 1st
2007 POY Rank: (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/poy.asp?year=2007) 1,400th
If you mean awesome scores surrounded by mediocrity and ineptitude, I think that describes a whole lot of horseplayers :D

[badcompany]

You haven’t lived in Vegas. Trust me; more then a few poker brats have literally resembled your photograph in the dumpster. This myth that everyone is getting wealthy from poker is incredibly exaggerated.

Agree. Trying making a living at any type of gambling game is very hard, but, in poker, at least you have a few success stories.

Who is the horseplayer equivalent of Johnnie Chan? Phil Hellmuth? Chris Ferguson?

[fmolf]

You haven’t lived in Vegas. Trust me; more then a few poker brats have literally resembled your photograph in the dumpster. This myth that everyone is getting wealthy from poker is incredibly exaggerated.
Not to mention how many throw hundreds of dollars away on the internet sites!Here is what my dad always said about my forays to the track...

......"There are more horses asses at the track than horses Frank"

with the state of the game today and takeouts what they are i am
beginning to believe him! :D

[DanG]

Agree. Trying making a living at any type of gambling game is very hard, but, in poker, at least you have a few success stories.

Who is the horseplayer equivalent of Johnnie Chan? Phil Hellmuth? Chris Ferguson?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Edit: :blush: I almost made a stupid mistake here; I wrote in someone’s name in a knee jerk response and this person would not be happy if I did so.

As we both know…this discussion will pull this good thread so far off course. There are so many ways the “poker celebrity” is making an income off the felt now due to its popularity. I would bet you my last cent Phil Hellmuth’s off the table income dwarfs his gambling take.

More power to them; they rode the power of television (unlike racing who turned their back on it) to incredible heights. If you’ve ever been to a live poker tournament (I have) its worst then watching paint dry. The editing and packaging of American Television is a remarkable thing.

[Imriledup]

What about the world series of handicapping that takes place every January in Vegas? What if one player wins this thing 3 or 4 times in a 20 year span....maybe that is grounds for induction.

[Greyfox]

What about the world series of handicapping that takes place every January in Vegas? What if one player wins this thing 3 or 4 times in a 20 year span....maybe that is grounds for induction.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[bishlap]

you mean to tell me Larry King isn't in the bettors hall of fame? Kalamazoo, hello...

[Imriledup]

you mean to tell me Larry King isn't in the bettors hall of fame? Kalamazoo, hello...

Good one. :lol:

[eastie]

he could be in the Mushers hall of fame too, and i don't mean the guys with the Malemutes either.

[castaway01]

Agree. Trying making a living at any type of gambling game is very hard, but, in poker, at least you have a few success stories.

Who is the horseplayer equivalent of Johnnie Chan? Phil Hellmuth? Chris Ferguson?

While I have no problem honoring the person who wins a national handicapping contest, the issue is that in poker a guy like Hellmuth wants the fame. Not just for the ego, but it helps him get sponsors who pay the bills when he's not winning. And while Hellmuth is a bad example of someone "not winning", there are 1,000 other "pros" are living on sponsors' money, borrowed money, and various other "interesting" means when they aren't cashing. So these guys (and ladies) want to be on TV so they can get more patches on their shirts and hats. Horseplayers basically want to lay low, and I don't think they'd want to discuss what gives them their edge because it could theoretically hurt that edge. On the other hand, a poker player discussing how he won a hand isn't going to make those cards any less valuable the next time around.