Charging customers for deposits ?

[rwwupl]

I have several accounts as a lot of us do with ADW companies.

Recentlly I made a deposit electronically from my bank to "You Bet".


I noticed they (you Bet) attached a fee to the transaction, when previously there were none.

When my bank charges a fee for me depositing money with them , I quit, and will store funds under my mattress.

I am scratching my head trying to rationalize the difference,if my bank or the ADW charges me for the privilidge of doing business with them,by me giving them my money.

My accounts are 100% in order and always have been so.

Should I accept this as an insult or am I missing something?

Should I fire them?

[exactaplayer]

PTC also charged me for my recent ach deposit. as did youbet. Have not been charged by youbet in the past. Do not recall PTC's action. May be time to close up with both of em.

[Cangamble]

Most ADWs charge their cost for the transactions. The ADW doesn't generally make money when they charge 4% for a credit card deposit...that is usually the cost that the credit card company charges the ADW from my understanding.

When getting rebates, I look at it as a nominal charge.

I'm not sure why HPI is able to do credit card deposits at no charge....maybe it has to do with high volume, or maybe they eat the costs. They can afford to with the high takeouts they charge.

[Dave Schwartz]

Doesn't it depend upon the type of deposit?

If you deposit (say) $1,000 by credit card, doesn't the credit card company charge the ADW for the deposit you make? Why should the ADW absorb that loss?

On the other hand, if you deposit by check or cashier's check I do not think there is a fee charged by the ADW.

[Dave Schwartz]

Gamble,

Sorry, did not see your post when I made mine.


Dave

[Igeteven]

We get nothing in California in rebates, I want to thank the CHRB on that one.

[rwwupl]

I am talking about direct deposit electronic from bank account!

Credit deposits are another story.

Ca. and You bet has no rebate program.

They (You Bet) are now charging customers for the priv. of doing business with them, so they can get a cut of each dollar you bet .

Seems like if you need more business today, all horseracing managers think the way to make up for missing customers is to raise the price.

Maybe they should talk to Arthur Laffer or Milton Friedman if he was still around.

When the bank starts charging you to deposit money with them , there will be no more bank.

There is no charge to deposit money at Twin Spires or XpressBet , but maybe they will get the idea of another source of revenue fron the bean counters over at You Bet and PTC.

More Bad Pooo---


P.s. The cost of the transaction is part of the "overhead" expense which is paid for by by their original cut of the take.

[njcurveball]

Most ADWs charge their cost for the transactions.

Mcdonalds does not charge for napkins and ketchup, Casinos do not charge for drinks or the water you use in the bathroom.

ADWs are run by short-sighted Management who do not realize they have to give the customer something to get their business. There is no huge building to heat or cool, no seats to clean or electricity bill for the TVs and machines.

Of course that means ANY other charge has to be absorbed by the sucker, I mean bettor.

Heck, if an ADW ran a poker tournament they would probably charge the players for the deck of cards. :ThmbDown:

[miesque]

Personally, I can't stand being nickled and dimed and charging a fee for an ACH deposit or withdrawal in this day and age is pretty much obnoxious making it the worst kind of nickeling and diming.

[andymays]

I use TVG, XpressBet, and Twin Spires. All in all I like Twin Spires the best, although any one is not that much better than the other. It seems like depending on the time of year and which tracks are running they offer different rewards deals and stuff like that.

Having said all that if you're always winning you never have to make a deposit. I forgot what that feels like lately!

[rwwupl]

Andy,

I am glad you are always winning. ;)

[andymays]

Andy,

I am glad you are always winning. ;)


You must not have read the last sentence of my previous post. What is winning?

[DRIVEWAY]

I have several accounts as a lot of us do with ADW companies.

Recentlly I made a deposit electronically from my bank to "You Bet".


I noticed they (you Bet) attached a fee to the transaction, when previously there were none.

When my bank charges a fee for me depositing money with them , I quit, and will store funds under my mattress.

I am scratching my head trying to rationalize the difference,if my bank or the ADW charges me for the privilidge of doing business with them,by me giving them my money.

My accounts are 100% in order and always have been so.

Should I accept this as an insult or am I missing something?

Should I fire them?

It is an insult. You are like an employee of youbet. The more you bet, the more you churn, the more youbet makes. What employee has to pay for pen and pencil?

A bank transfer should be free. Next they'll charge you for a money order you send them. A handling fee.

Call them and tell them what to handle.

[Dave Schwartz]

rwwupl,

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I cannot imagine an ADW trying to profit from your deposit.

I have never experienced that. Last year I opened an account with an ADW and they agreed to give me $100 per month towards my RTN satellite feed provided I reach a certain (very reasonable) monthly minimum.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[rwwupl]

Andy,

I had a Sr. moment. :ThmbUp:

[rwwupl]

rwwupl,

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I cannot imagine an ADW trying to profit from your deposit.

I have never experienced that. Last year I opened an account with an ADW and they agreed to give me $100 per month towards my RTN satellite feed provided I reach a certain (very reasonable) monthly minimum.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I think you have misunderstood. I am glad you have found an ADW that gives you what you think is a good deal.

When you get "freebies" it indicates your ADW is interested in keeping your business.

When you get charged for trying to participate in their program by depositing money electronically from a bank, they are telling me they do not give a damn about my business, even though I have been with them several years, a "gold" (upper )member, with a no problem record.

That is an insult.

That is part of their overhead costs and it has already been paid for by their share of the take, which I and every horseplayer pay for.

[Tom]

Heck, if an ADW ran a poker tournament they would probably charge the players for the deck of cards. :ThmbDown:

"Hmmm, I'll take two."
"Will that be cash or charge?"
:lol:

[Imriledup]

I was in Whole Foods the other day and a girl in front of me gave the cashier a card, he swiped it and i saw on the monitor "team member discount". I did the math and she got 10% off her entire bill for being an employee.

If this girl was a racing employee, they would probably tack on 10% to her bill instead of giving her a discount.

[jonnielu]

It is an insult. You are like an employee of youbet. The more you bet, the more you churn, the more youbet makes. What employee has to pay for pen and pencil?

A bank transfer should be free. Next they'll charge you for a money order you send them. A handling fee.

Call them and tell them what to handle.

I'd been with twinspires since they started, but it just irked me that video wasn't free, so I went to BetAmerica. They have free video and rebates.

jdl

[Dave Schwartz]

rwwupl,

I agree completely!


Dave

[startngate]

I'd been with twinspires since they started, but it just irked me that video wasn't free, so I went to BetAmerica. They have free video and rebates.

jdlThe video is free at TS with a very small amount of wagering. If you can't reach the TS minimum (basically $10 per day you watch the video), why bother having an account?

[rrbauer]

I do not pay any fees at Youbet for ACH deposits/withdrawals or credit-card deposits. I have a "Platinum" account (whatever that means).

I do pay fees at PTC for both ACH deposits/withdrawals. It's like 1%. The biggest problem at PTC is having to send a bunch of emails to get a deposit approved; or, wait 3 days until the money shows up in my account.

I do not pay fees at Twin Spires for ACH deposits/withdrawals.

It's a big juggling act to figure out the trade-off between the rebates and the fees and when the absence of fees can mitigate lower rebates. I'm not betting that much anymore so I just wing it!

[jonnielu]

The video is free at TS with a very small amount of wagering. If you can't reach the TS minimum (basically $10 per day you watch the video), why bother having an account?

I don't bet every race, most are un-bettable, when I find one that is bettable, I like to have video to make a betting decision. If I'm betting just to keep the video on, that is the same as paying for the video. If I go to an OTB, or a track for 2 weeks, I like to have video when I get back.

jdl

[Tom]

Do they charge you for a menu at a diner if you don't order a certain amount every day?

Every track should have FREE VIDEO on its web page - there is NO good reason to restrict any access to the signals.

[njcurveball]

Do they charge you for a menu at a diner if you don't order a certain amount every day?

Every track should have FREE VIDEO on its web page - there is NO good reason to restrict any access to the signals.

A very simple point, but as Larry Lederman says very effective. It costs money to print a menu, costs money to get the proper amount of plastic on it, so they can wipe it off when you lay it in a ketchup spot. Also costs money for heat, A/C, electricity, etc.

Imagine being asked to pay 25 cents more because you wanted toast. Toast takes EXTRA electricity. :bang:

An ADW has a backbone interface designed on a shoestring budget. They have a few customer service people and little else as far as overhead. Most of us could run an ADW from our bedroom.

So it costs me $4.50 for every hundred I deposit at 4njbets. There have been days where I deposit and churn $3,000 or more. That is not $3,000 in my pocket, that is $3,000 bet. I may win $2,900 and then guess what? Another $4.50 to put in another $100.

But what did they make on my $3,000? $250? $300? more? What do they lost if I do not call? EVERY DOLLAR! They make ZERO if I do not deposit. So the menu thing is spot on.

No menu equals no food ordered which equals no revenue.

I would be happy to get 1% back and pay the $4.50 gladly! That means I would have to bet $450 to break even on the charge. And that means they would make $45 or more on my betting and still make a ton of money.

But who ever met someone in track management who actually realized that?

[PaceAdvantage]

I haven't deposited money in quite a while with YouBet, but from what I can remember, I ALWAYS thought they charged a small fee for deposits (I always deposited via ACH straight from my checking account)....then again, I was never a platinum member....:lol:

[comet52]

Xpressbet doesn't charge me for ach deposits. Everyone charges for credit cards, they make you pay the processor fee.

[rrbauer]

Xpressbet doesn't charge me for ach deposits. Everyone charges for credit cards, they make you pay the processor fee.

"Everyone" does not pay fees for credit-card deposits.

[Cangamble]

"Everyone" does not pay fees for credit-card deposits.
The only ADW that doesn't charge as a matter of policy is HPI (Woodbine's hub).

[LottaKash]

Andy,

I had a Sr. moment. :ThmbUp:

Hey rwwupl....I use Youbet as well....I haven't had to make a deposit for some time now, but the last time that I did, there wasn't a charge to do so, and it was a direct deposit from my own bank/checking acct....

Did that change more recently....???....If it did, perhaps it may have some relationship with how much or how often you bet in a specific time frame or something like that...

best,

[rrbauer]

The only ADW that doesn't charge as a matter of policy is HPI (Woodbine's hub).

That may be for entry-level players, but I can assure you that is not the case for all players.

[Charli125]

That may be for entry-level players, but I can assure you that is not the case for all players.

I can confirm that I've not been charged a fee by either youbet or twinspires. I haven't deposited into twinspires in a while, but I deposited to youbet 2 weeks ago...no fee.

[Cangamble]

I can confirm that I've not been charged a fee by either youbet or twinspires. I haven't deposited into twinspires in a while, but I deposited to youbet 2 weeks ago...no fee.
Are you talking credit card?

[Charli125]

No, I'm talking about a straight ACH transfer.

Are you talking credit card?

[Cangamble]

No, I'm talking about a straight ACH transfer.
I'm talking credit cards.

[rwwupl]

Hey rwwupl....I use Youbet as well....I haven't had to make a deposit for some time now, but the last time that I did, there wasn't a charge to do so, and it was a direct deposit from my own bank/checking acct....

Did that change more recently....???....If it did, perhaps it may have some relationship with how much or how often you bet in a specific time frame or something like that...

best,


I bet often and a lot. I have several accounts . With YouBet I am a "Gold " member and get treated accordigly except for this.

I was told in the recent past there was no charge for direct deposit, but they had decided in a policy change to re-instate a charge for deposits.

The bean counters win again--maybe, I think they are short sighted.

I have options.

[LottaKash]

IThe bean counters win again--maybe, I think they are short sighted.

I have options.

Very.....

I hope I never tap-out again, I hate to pay....

best,

[trying2win]

Everyone charges for credit cards, they make you pay the processor fee.

Not true COMET. Your line should have read, "Almost everyone charges for credit cards....."

At LINK2BET.COM which is an ADW, there is no service charge for credit card deposits. How do I know? I'm a customer there at times. One other thing about LINK2BET.COM, is that they pay cash rebates on every bet you make win or lose. The mystery is that they don't advertise about the rebates on their website. You have to ask for them in an email when opening an account.

For example, when I first started an account there, they asked me how much I estimated that I would bet per week. I stated a modest $125 per week. They offered me a 5 % cash rebate. Since I mainly bet win or place, that's not too bad these days for bets on thoroughbred tracks. Bigger bettors than me, would probably be eligible for higher percentage rebates. They'd have to inquire at what betting levels the higher percentage rebates kick in.

I haven't bet at LINK2BET in awhile, but am considering going back there, because PTC is not offering rebates of at least 5 % for STRAIGHT BETS anymore on very many thoroughbred tracks.

I see LINK2BET has recently added HOLLYWOOD PARK to their betting menu. I'll have to check whether I can get 5 % for my straight bets there, or whether they are restricted by that ridiculous 2 % cash rebate maximum by TRACKNET at most tracks that carry their signals.

As I recall, one drawback at LINK2BET, is the lack of TRACKNET racetracks in general.

So in conclusion, I'd say it's a good idea to have more than one ADW for a bettor to use for several reasons. A few I can think of are...to have a back-up ADW in case your main ADW is having technical problems, or because as a bettor you are trying to maximize your returns with the best rebate percentages around. Another is to find one that reduces your overhead expenses with llitle or no service charges on various things.

T2W

[Tom Barrister]

Mcdonalds does not charge for napkins and ketchup, Casinos do not charge for drinks or the water you use in the bathroom.



The napkins, ketchup, etc., are factored into the cost of the products they sell.

Many casinos outside of Nevada DO charge for drinks.


While most people realize that the credit card companies charge a fee to the merchant, a lot of people don't realize is that ACH transfers also (usually) have a fee, which is paid for by the merchant. The fee is a set percentage (which varies by volume and level of automation), and/or a set transaction fee.

This is why banks encourage their customers to sign up for online bill-pay programs (instead of sending in paper checks). The banks are making money on it.

ACH fees are usually lower than credit card fees and are often lower than debit card fees (yes, even debit cards usually have a "swipe" fee, terminal fee, etc.).

Merchants get a discount for batch processing, which is why many (i.e. cable companies, phone companies) encourage (some, such as Geico, by offering a small discount) automatic-deduction from checking accounts.

Since there is often a fee-per-transfer, many ADW's have a minimum deposit.

The point is that your electronic check (or other electronic) deposit probably isn't free to the ADW. Some absorb the fee; others don't.

[rwwupl]

Tom Barrister wrote:

Since there is often a fee-per-transfer, many ADW's have a minimum deposit.

The point is that your electronic check (or other electronic) deposit probably isn't free to the ADW. Some absorb the fee; others don't.



I was informed that the average cost is .45 cents per transaction. That is not the problem.

When the ADW signs the contract,they know there will be certain costs that must be met in order for them to do business. It is part of their business plan and those costs are called "Overhead"-- just like they know they will have to pay rent.

Costs(overhead) plus profit is what they expect when they agree to a contract.

A popular thing (For a business) is for beancounters to enhance profit is to take an item that they accounted for in the first place in the bid as overhead,and put it in another column and ask the customers to pay for it directly,so they do not have to subsidize it. It increases profit,if they can get away with it.

It is akin to asking the customers to pay for the phone calls to Customer Service, it cuts down on the calls and enhances profit,if they can get away with it.

The act is not Customer friendly, makes a hero out of the Accounting Department, but is penny wise and pound foolish, in my opinion.

Horse racing needs more customer friendly operations, not less.

[Space Monkey]

I used to be a Youbet subscriber because they had the best track availability. I paid a $10.95 monthly fee and 3.5% on debit card deposits. About 2 years ago, Twin Spires finally got their act together and I switched over. No fees with EZ Money (debit card), the best track availability, roi for bet type and track, and now they have come out with a great live video page. Free video if you bet something like $30 a month, and free Brisnet PP's if you bet $2 on the card you download. I've never been happier with an ADW site. I don't need anything else and it does most of my record keeping for me. All I have to keep track of now is what type of race and surface I bet on.

[trying2win]

I mentioned in my last post about PTC, that they aren't offering a 5 % rebate or more for STRAIGHT BETS on very many thoroughbred tracks.. To be fair to PTC, what I didn't mention was that at my lower betting level that's the case. However, for PTC customers betting higher amounts per month, it's quite possible that they are receiving a 5 % or more rebate on STRAIGHT bets on many more thoroughbred tracks than I am.

T2W

[trying2win]

Speaking of instant deposits, sometimes I use an offshore account. When I do, I prefer doing business with those outfits that offer the option of INSTADEBIT. When I use INSTADEBIT for a deposit, the money goes in my account almost instantly. None of this waiting around for three or four business days to get one's money in their betting account. Mind you, INSTADEBIT accounts are for Canadian residents only at this point. Compare that to all the roadblocks, delays, alibis and excuses for getting a deposit of money into your American ADW account. Who can we criticize in the USA for that?...Federal Government regulations, big bank policies, ADW policies, or all of those three outfits?


T2W

[Space Monkey]

My debit card deposits get credited instantly at Twin spires. With no fees I'm not looking for a site that gives rebates.

One other thing to those that use credit cards for deposits. Unless you pay off your balance every month, you'll never beat the track with the combined takeout and finance charges you have to pay on your card.

[Cangamble]

My debit card deposits get credited instantly at Twin spires. With no fees I'm not looking for a site that gives rebates.

One other thing to those that use credit cards for deposits. Unless you pay off your balance every month, you'll never beat the track with the combined takeout and finance charges you have to pay on your card.
Not looking for rebates?
I guess it depends on how much you bet.
$100 a day on average?
That is $36,000 a year.
5% rebate on that is $1800.
If you are averaging a 7% rebate, that is an extra $2500.

If you are an average handicapper, you have to put in around $8000 to get 36k in action. That is $320 in credit card fees.

Now sure, if you don't pay off the 8 g's on the credit card in a timely matter, that could amount to another 1600 a year in extra interest....but that is up to you if you want to either use credit card money to gamble with or you have intention of paying them off quickly.

[Space Monkey]

Cangamble, I don't use credit cards and I don't pay any fees. I bet online just as if I was at the track. Now, I haven't looked into sites that give rebates, but I'm guessing they don't give you rebates unless they are charging you somehow. Do you bet on a site that doesn't charge you a monthly fee or a deposit charge and still gives you the rebates you described? if so, do me a favor,,,let me know.

[trying2win]

Cangamble, I don't use credit cards and I don't pay any fees. I bet online just as if I was at the track. Now, I haven't looked into sites that give rebates, but I'm guessing they don't give you rebates unless they are charging you somehow. Do you bet on a site that doesn't charge you a monthly fee or a deposit charge and still gives you the rebates you described? if so, do me a favor,,,let me know.

Space Monkey:

Check out my posts about LINK2BET.COM in this thread. .

T2W

[Space Monkey]

i did try2win, and the first thing i noticed is that they don't have the ny tracks :ThmbDown:

[Niko]

I've never gotten charged to make a deposit at Twinspires for a direct bank deposit.

At Youbet I was getting nickled and dimed starting out with direct deposit, not getting my credit for signing up (after two follow ups) etc.... Decided I'd focus on Twinspires after I was able to go there and get most tracks.


Maybe policies have changed in the last year or two. With new management at Youbet hopefully it will get better....at least the stock treated me well until I recently sold :)

[spiketoo]

Believe it or not, TVGSUCKS does not charge for CC or DC deposits. Yeah, I know the 0.25 per bet rake. But I fig if I'm making 5-10 bets on a $400 churn, that's 2.50 max rake as opposed to like 15.00 on a 3.98% CC transaction fee.

And I would never, ever do ACH - they store your bank info on their servers - you're just asking for trouble with that. At least if they store card info any breech is covered by Regs Z and E receptively.

[horseking]

I've been wagering on betamerica lately and they don't seem to charge for deposits, video, etc. They claim "no fees" for anything....and offer rebates....so far so good.

[affirmedny]

I have several accounts as a lot of us do with ADW companies.

Recentlly I made a deposit electronically from my bank to "You Bet".


I noticed they (you Bet) attached a fee to the transaction, when previously there were none.

When my bank charges a fee for me depositing money with them , I quit, and will store funds under my mattress.

I am scratching my head trying to rationalize the difference,if my bank or the ADW charges me for the privilidge of doing business with them,by me giving them my money.

My accounts are 100% in order and always have been so.

Should I accept this as an insult or am I missing something?

Should I fire them?

do you deposit with your bank electronically? probably not. whatever service they're using is probably not free. how much did they charge you?

[Space Monkey]

i dropped youbet because of there monthly fee and a 3.5% charge for deposits. i use my debit card straight from my checking acct so there shouldn't be any fees. betamerica sounds good, i'll check into it. i'm looking into sites that give rebates. but what i've found so far, is that these sites don't offer everything i want. we'll see.

[rwwupl]

do you deposit with your bank electronically? probably not. whatever service they're using is probably not free. how much did they charge you?


What do you know about my business that I do not?

Do you pay when you deposit in a bank or an ADW?

I will not pay for depositing money with anyone.

[affirmedny]

What do you know about my business that I do not?

Do you pay when you deposit in a bank or an ADW?

I will not pay for depositing money with anyone.

I'm not implying that I know anything about your business. You said your bank doesn't charge you to make a deposit and I'm making an assumption that you're probably not depositing to your bank via debit or credit card as one would normally do to fund an ADW deposit. These transactions are not free and if they passed along a small fee I don't think it's unreasonable. That's why I asked what they charged. $5 or $10 on a $500 deposit would not be unreasonable in my opinion. $25 or $50 would be a different story. Passing along a small fee is one thing, attempting to make a substantial profit on the transaction is another.

[rwwupl]

Banks and ADW's are in business to attract your deposits.

It is their lifeblood.

Without deposits, they both would be out of business quickly.

Banks sometimes give gifts for deposits.

Electronic transfers average a cost of .45 cents per transaction. Most consider it a part of their overhead, as it is a part of doing business that they can not do without.

[rwwupl]

Banks and ADW's are in business to attract your deposits.

It is their lifeblood.

Without deposits, they both would be out of business quickly.

Banks sometimes give gifts for deposits.

Electronic transfers average a cost of .45 cents per transaction. Most consider it a part of their overhead, as it is a part of doing business that they can not do without.


UPDATE:

I hope this message applies to all and not just me. Please let me know your experience. Thanks, rwwupl



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[rwwupl]

A fellow horse player called YouBet and was informed that the fee waiver for deposits only applies to "Gold " and higher accounts.

What a bummer. :ThmbDown: