offset starting gates

[tone3]

Tioga Downs a 5/8ths track introduced an offset gate this past weekend. I have a couple questions.
Are offset gates denoted anywhere in a program? Do the gates have that much influence in a race?

T.I.A.
Tone

[LottaKash]

Tioga Downs a 5/8ths track introduced an offset gate this past weekend. I have a couple questions.
Are offset gates denoted anywhere in a program? Do the gates have that much influence in a race?

T.I.A.
Tone

Hey Tone, thx for the update at Tioga...I wasn't aware of the change to the newer slanted starting gate....I think and sincerely believe that all 1/2-mile and 5/8th's-mile harnes tracks should implement that change to their race starts....

The only tracks that I am aware of that use this type of starting gate is Chester Downs in Philly, and the Meadows in the Pittsburgh area....I'll bet there may be others, but they are tracks that I am not too familiar with...

The slanted starting gate does even up the odds a bit more for the outside horses, who are normally at at a much greater disadvantage, post position wise, at the start of the race....With the new gate, when the horses are getting up to speed in the moving-runup prior to the start, and as the gate draws nearer to the start, the starter-judge will start to cant the gate almost to a 45o angle at the official starting point... The gate will be at it's maximum offset angle at that point....This allows a well meant front running leaver type horse a chance to get into the mix earlier and as a result will or should be less taxed for his earlier trying efforts in the race....I seem do better at these two tracks, when betting ouside posts, than at some other smallish type tracks....When I have a live contender with early speed I will not hesitate as much, putting my money on the line, as in times past, or other tracks....It is not a cure-all for outside posts, but I think it does help in this regard...I like it....I am not sure what the specs are concerning how much better or worse the horses have been doing since the implementation of the off-set gate at those two tracks...I guess I should know that, but I don't....But, my perception is, that is does make a difference.....

Tioga Downs has done a "good thing"...Go Tioga, I will look more closely at that venue, as the outside posts are really at a disavantage at that particular track...It almost plays like a half miler....I wish the other small tracks would follow suit as, anything kinder to the bettor, when searching for winners, could only be a plus for the fans & the tracks, if they made the change....A "good and wise investment" for them, I think....:jump:

best,

[Ray2000]

The Meadows increased the slant from a 7 foot slant to 14 foot slant in Feb.
Since then the ROI has changed dramatically.

The Meadows Old Gate Oct 10-Feb 8 ................New Slant Gate Feb 9-Jun 30



Post Starts Wins % Wins ROI Starts Wins % Wins ROI
PP1 934 153 16% -13% 1486 163 11% -50%
PP2 934 119 13% -40% 1486 174 12% -31%
PP3 934 153 16% -2% 1486 157 11% -38%
PP4 934 137 15% -17% 1486 226 15% -19%
PP5 934 145 16% -23% 1486 227 15% -13%
PP6 932 92 10% -35% 1483 187 13% -10%
PP7 893 64 7% -26% 1431 143 10% -29%
PP8 796 48 6% -40% 1253 134 11% -15%
PP9 493 24 5% -49% 812 72 9% -11%


I don't have much data on Tioga but here are the numbers so far in 2009


Post Starts Wins % Wins ROI
PP1 317 45 14% -37%
PP2 317 54 17% -13%
PP3 317 35 11% -50%
PP4 317 55 17% -18%
PP5 317 42 13% -20%
PP6 316 35 11% -42%
PP7 294 28 10% -32%
PP8 253 11 4% -75%
PP9 158 12 8% -67%


http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=30590&z=1

[beaucap]

Tioga Downs a 5/8ths track introduced an offset gate this past weekend. I have a couple questions.
Are offset gates denoted anywhere in a program? Do the gates have that much influence in a race?

T.I.A.
Tone

I've been in the harness racing industry for about 40 years. I remember one of the tracks in Chicago had a staggered starting gate years ago. I'm thinkin 1970's and i think it was at Maywood Park or might of even been Hawthorne race course? As i remember it kind of went away after while just like the single shaft sulky bike.

(In spring 2003 Chicago-based trainer Tom Harmer devised a sulky coined the "AdvantEdge 6.3" because it brings the horse 6.3 inches closer to the inside of the track, thus lowering the amount of ground a horse would have to travel over. In that same vein, "The Outlaw" appeared later in the year, being used by Dave Palone on most of his mounts at the Meadows in the fall of 2003. This sulky was developed by Ohio horseman Craig Stein. Both bikes are narrower than conventional sulkies, and both have the seat of the race bike moved over closer to the left side on the arch).

Getting back to staggered starting gates, the Meadowlands is experimenting with one also.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/horse-racing-harness-racing-off-to-new-start.html

[OffNPacing]

Tioga is my home track.....

I find that inside through post 5 had a def. post advantage, coming into this weekend. I remember for the 1st few weeks, the 8 post didn't have ANY wins.

Here are results from this past weekend from Tioga....

Sunday
Post----Wins
2-------3
3-------2
4-------3
5-------1
6-------1
8-------1



Saturday
Post----Wins
1-------1
2-------2
3-------2
4-------2
5-------2
7-------1
9-------1




Friday
Post----Wins
2-------1
3-------1
4-------2
5-------1
6-------2
7-------2
8-------1






As it seems, Friday, the first date of implementation, that the post bias was evident. As Saturday and Sunday came around, seems as though the post bias was back to normal. It is def. something to keep tabs on later in the meet.

[wilderness]

Generally speaking. . .I would say that staggered starting gates are the NORM today in harness racing, rather than the exception.

There is also a staggered gate in which the starter has a control over the outer portion of the gate (via hydraulics) to make an adjustments as the horses are approaching the race start.

[LottaKash]

Generally speaking. . .I would say that staggered starting gates are the NORM today in harness racing, rather than the exception.

There is also a staggered gate in which the starter has a control over the outer portion of the gate (via hydraulics) to make an adjustments as the horses are approaching the race start.

That is the "gate" that I thought that was being referred to at Tioga....Many tracks have a slanted gate, but there are few, that I know of, that have the "adjustable in motion" one....

And, the "ROI's" for the outside horses, at The Meadows, are "very" interesting, indeed ....(Ray)

best,

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Getting back to staggered starting gates, the Meadowlands is experimenting with one also.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/horse-racing-harness-racing-off-to-new-start.html



That article is dated from May,1989.What was the actual result,if anyone knows?

[wilderness]

That article is dated from May,1989.What was the actual result,if anyone knows?

The Meadowlands uses a somewhat staggered gate which allows the outside in may races to get away quicker than would be otherwise.

Gates went through drastic redesigns in the late 1990's.

[wilderness]

This website; mobile starting gates (http://mobilestartinggates.spaces.live.com/) offers more than 250 photo's of starting gates.

[wilderness]

A good read on starting gates and the effect upon both horse and driver (as well as tactics) is explained with great detail by John Campbell in the USTA's NEW Care and Training of the Trotter and Pacer.

[LottaKash]

A good read on starting gates and the effect upon both horse and driver (as well as tactics) is explained with great detail by John Campbell in the USTA's NEW Care and Training of the Trotter and Pacer.

I have that book only it's a bit dated, like 196?,...Campbell, was just a lad back then....

And, Don, thx for the other stuff, we can always count on You and Ray, for good Harness-Info....

best,

[wilderness]

I have that book only it's a bit dated, like 196?,...Campbell, was just a lad back then....

best,

Lotta,
There's two versions of the book; old (1968-69), New (1996).

The 1996 has Campbell in the drivers chapter.
The 1968 has Billy Haughton in the drivers chapter.

Both are good reads, personally I find the older book more enjoyable.

[wilderness]

Lotta,
Both the Old & New versions of the book offer excellent reference.
Here's a thread on the Barn to Wire forum in which a person inquired about the feasability of using flip-flop shoes (http://www.barntowire.com/smf/index.php?topic=26302.0) on the rear feet of a Standardbred.

flip-flops did not exist in the 1960's, however the older version of the Care and Training offered some nice reference to the "frog of the foot", which is what the flip-flop is all about.