win and your in!

[fmolf]

well the globalization of the breeders cup has begun now.more races have been added in France,Ireland,England and Japan.Can a race in Italy and/or Germany be far behind?Doing some basic math here i am estimating that a little less than half of the entrants will have won a one of these races.Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is helping with the quality of the races or diluting the talent in these races?

[andymays]

well the globalization of the breeders cup has begun now.more races have been added in France,Ireland,England and Japan.Can a race in Italy and/or Germany be far behind?Doing some basic math here i am estimating that a little less than half of the entrants will have won a one of these races.Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is helping with the quality of the races or diluting the talent in these races?


American Racing is losing it's identity in my opinion.

[fmolf]

American Racing is losing it's identity in my opinion.
i do not know what the long term goals are any longer.the breeders cup started as a truly american idea for american bred horses.Somewhere along the way the powers that be felt the need to include all of the world.

[andymays]

i do not know what the long term goals are any longer.the breeders cup started as a truly american idea for american bred horses.Somewhere along the way the powers that be felt the need to include all of the world.


They need to have dirt, turf, and sythetic races! Not having races on dirt is inexcusable.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Better talent pool, alternate training and breeding on display- I love it!

[fmolf]

Better talent pool, alternate training and breeding on display- I love it!
i do not think it is benefitting american horseman to encourage foreign horses to be coming to the united states and competing for our biggest purses.If they want to compete for our purses let them ship over here and get in the same way our horses do by entering win and your in races in this country against our best horses

[joanied]

Well, I got quite angry when I read they added 5 more win & your in races, over there no less...geeze, I was thinking they should do away with it all together...IMO, no horse belongs in the BC Championship races unless he/she earns it...and just winning one of these automatic your in things sucks!!

We'll have more foreign horse running for OUR Championships than ever before...especially at SA with all the fake stuff to run on...man, this just gets my blood to boilin' :mad:

I agree with fmolf:
"i do not think it is benefitting american horseman to encourage foreign horses to be coming to the united states and competing for our biggest purses.If they want to compete for our purses let them ship over here and get in the same way our horses do by entering win and your in races in this country against our best horses"

and andymays:
"American Racing is losing it's identity in my opinion".

I hate this...and can't wait until the BC moves to Churchill or Belmont where we still have good old DIRT...where the American horse can shine!!

[fmolf]

Well, I got quite angry when I read they added 5 more win & your in races, over there no less...geeze, I was thinking they should do away with it all together...IMO, no horse belongs in the BC Championship races unless he/she earns it...and just winning one of these automatic your in things sucks!!

We'll have more foreign horse running for OUR Championships than ever before...especially at SA with all the fake stuff to run on...man, this just gets my blood to boilin' :mad:

I agree with fmolf:
"i do not think it is benefitting american horseman to encourage foreign horses to be coming to the united states and competing for our biggest purses.If they want to compete for our purses let them ship over here and get in the same way our horses do by entering win and your in races in this country against our best horses"

and andymays:
"American Racing is losing it's identity in my opinion".

I hate this...and can't wait until the BC moves to Churchill or Belmont where we still have good old DIRT...where the American horse can shine!!
hana and all other horseplayer associations should boycott the breeders cup this year...i know that is far fetched but i only bet the grass races last year and will do the same again this year!

[joanied]

fmolf...I doubt that would happen...it's a pretty good idea, but wishful thinking.

[CincyHorseplayer]

When it comes to these type of ideas they should be;

a)restricted to the grade of the win and your in race(ie a group or grade 1 to get into a G1 race,not a G2 or G3 to get into a G1 race),and

b)restricted to the surface of the race of the win and in race.

If there is a win and you're in race in Europe it needs to be a G1 on dirt to get in IMO.

If the Breeders Cup want to legitimize the event then I guess they can go ahead and add another day to the event and have a Synthetic day.

The crap they are promoting that it's a universal surface is just that IMO.If they want to organize the best horses at specific distances and surfaces they need to isolate those surfaces and contenders instead of it being a jumbled mess without the best fields.

Synthetics are not universal for turf and dirt horses.It muddles the picture instead of clarifying it.I have no problem with the globalization of racing but the Breeders Cup is an American entity and our traditional surfaces are dirt and turf.It should be that if you want to win and get in, the surfaces and gradings of competition should be identical or it's a bunk concept IMO.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Maybe they need to invent a parallel earnings chart based on purse values between Europe and America and let it be an earnings and in scenario.

With all the numbers floating around the game this would be the easiest solution IMO.

[fmolf]

Maybe they need to invent a parallel earnings chart based on purse values between Europe and America and let it be an earnings and in scenario.

With all the numbers floating around the game this would be the easiest solution IMO.
good idea.....why don't they just have their own breeders cup ....then we could have a series of match races....... :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Maybe they need to invent a parallel earnings chart based on purse values between Europe and America and let it be an earnings and in scenario.

With all the numbers floating around the game this would be the easiest solution IMO.

Wikipedia:
"According to the publishers, a Timeform rating represents "the merit of the horse expressed in pounds and is arrived at by careful examination of its running against other horses using a scale of weight for distance beaten which ranges from around 3 lb a length at five furlongs and 2 lb a length at a mile and a quarter to 1 lb a length at two miles".

The Beyer Speed Figure used in the United States is similar to a Timeform rating. The popular rule of thumb for comparing these two numbres is to add 12-14 points to the Beyer score to estimate the Timeform number.

Timeform ratings for 3-year-olds & up are as follows:

140 - An outstanding horse
130-135 - Above average Group 1 winner
125-129 - Average Group 1 winner
115-120 - Average Group 2 winner
110-115 - Average Group 3 winner
100-105 - Average listed race winner
Timeform states that 2-year-old averages are slightly lower."

[CincyHorseplayer]

Wikipedia:
"According to the publishers, a Timeform rating represents "the merit of the horse expressed in pounds and is arrived at by careful examination of its running against other horses using a scale of weight for distance beaten which ranges from around 3 lb a length at five furlongs and 2 lb a length at a mile and a quarter to 1 lb a length at two miles".

The Beyer Speed Figure used in the United States is similar to a Timeform rating. The popular rule of thumb for comparing these two numbres is to add 12-14 points to the Beyer score to estimate the Timeform number.

Timeform ratings for 3-year-olds & up are as follows:

140 - An outstanding horse
130-135 - Above average Group 1 winner
125-129 - Average Group 1 winner
115-120 - Average Group 2 winner
110-115 - Average Group 3 winner
100-105 - Average listed race winner
Timeform states that 2-year-old averages are slightly lower."

I think you missed my point entirely Kenwood!I was talking about a parallel earnings chart not speed figures.

[hencicleva]

When it comes to these type of ideas they should be;

a)restricted to the grade of the win and your in race(ie a group or grade 1 to get into a G1 race,not a G2 or G3 to get into a G1 race),and

b)restricted to the surface of the race of the win and in race.

If there is a win and you're in race in Europe it needs to be a G1 on dirt to get in IMO.

If the Breeders Cup want to legitimize the event then I guess they can go ahead and add another day to the event and have a Synthetic day.

The crap they are promoting that it's a universal surface is just that IMO.If they want to organize the best horses at specific distances and surfaces they need to isolate those surfaces and contenders instead of it being a jumbled mess without the best fields.

Synthetics are not universal for turf and dirt horses.It muddles the picture instead of clarifying it.I have no problem with the globalization of racing but the Breeders Cup is an American entity and our traditional surfaces are dirt and turf.It should be that if you want to win and get in, the surfaces and gradings of competition should be identical or it's a bunk concept IMO.

Best quote on this over-worked subject I have read. A beacon or reason in a thread full of xenophobic bile.

If the horses are good enough to win they are worthy of me watching them.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think you missed my point entirely Kenwood!I was talking about a parallel earnings chart not speed figures.
Sorry!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Best quote on this over-worked subject I have read. A beacon or reason in a thread full of xenophobic bile.

If the horses are good enough to win they are worthy of me watching them.

I've tried to be as open minded as possible about but some the ideas seem to make such little sense it's almost as if there is a conspiracy behind them and if so it only hurts US Racing.

The Breeder's Cup is a creation of the United States and we pay big pots of gold for racing in this country.If European horses can't make enough money in their respective countries to qualify under an earnings/entry type of program,then why should we bend over backwards to give them purse money when their countries fail to pony up US style purses and they race on surfaces dominantly foreign to this country,excepting turf???

The longer this debate goes on synthetic racing surfaces and the hoopla surrounding them just seem like a joke.When the basic,great ideas of what the Breeders Cup is supposed to be is flatly contradicted by by adding surfaces and gimmicky entries the powers that be cease to have credibility IMO.

OK I'm done!

[fmolf]

I've tried to be as open minded as possible about but some the ideas seem to make such little sense it's almost as if there is a conspiracy behind them and if so it only hurts US Racing.

The Breeder's Cup is a creation of the United States and we pay big pots of gold for racing in this country.If European horses can't make enough money in their respective countries to qualify under an earnings/entry type of program,then why should we bend over backwards to give them purse money when their countries fail to pony up US style purses and they race on surfaces dominantly foreign to this country,excepting turf???

The longer this debate goes on synthetic racing surfaces and the hoopla surrounding them just seem like a joke.When the basic,great ideas of what the Breeders Cup is supposed to be is flatly contradicted by by adding surfaces and gimmicky entries the powers that be cease to have credibility IMO.

OK I'm done!I guess they figure that american horse owners are all fat cats anyway!so lets make it harder on them.Alienate our loyal american racinfg fans who haven't even heard of a lot of these foreign horses...making it harder to handicap the races because the timeform format is inconclusive and not detail oriented.....the only reason is they must be making more money on the takeout from all the monies being wagered in europe and japan...it always comes down to the money!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Fmolf,

I don't know how the financial structure works in other places completely so I may be wrong about some of my points of view on it.

What I do know is that the Breeders Cup is about clarifying the picture not muddying it ya know??

[hencicleva]

I've tried to be as open minded as possible about but some the ideas seem to make such little sense it's almost as if there is a conspiracy behind them and if so it only hurts US Racing.

The Breeder's Cup is a creation of the United States and we pay big pots of gold for racing in this country.If European horses can't make enough money in their respective countries to qualify under an earnings/entry type of program,then why should we bend over backwards to give them purse money when their countries fail to pony up US style purses and they race on surfaces dominantly foreign to this country,excepting turf???

The longer this debate goes on synthetic racing surfaces and the hoopla surrounding them just seem like a joke.When the basic,great ideas of what the Breeders Cup is supposed to be is flatly contradicted by by adding surfaces and gimmicky entries the powers that be cease to have credibility IMO.

OK I'm done!

I have agreed with everything you have said so far except for one thing, and please correct me if I'm wrong with facts, but they ONLY race on turf in Europe saving a handful of poly for very minor race meets. Are we not in fact the only Country to race grade 1 on poly and therefore how it is a foreign conspiracy? I've never been one for conspiracy theries, believing that lazy thinking by the majority is a far greater threat to our Country than any small manipulative group.

Based on Group 1 earnings, would not both Henry the Navigator and Ravens Pass both have qualified last year anyway? The prize money at Ascot seemed pretty high to me I think they would qualify without "win and your in."

So ironically if we insisted that they qualify with Grade 1 earnings on the exact surface we would not have seen Henry, Raven's Pass or Curlin. Simplest solution...keep it on dirt and turf and welcome anyone who's good enough to win. But that's just my rant and I'm done too.

[BUD]

They Across The Pond -Don't think its that big of a deal--Well Some---Some rather aim for other races that I don't know in my short time----


But A example of win & your in is the K-Derby---Where did he Finish?


I am not smart enough to set up a family vacation nevermind the problems of the B-Cup-----But--I do enjoy it--& I do enjoy the International flare--

I just wish they would get it off of whatever that surface is?

[KingChas]

well the globalization of the breeders cup has begun now.Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is helping with the quality of the races or diluting the talent in these races?

Foriegn Horses are now to be considered as Immigrants.
Welcome all to the USA.
:lol:

[joanied]

The BC should focus on American horses...it's the deciding factor in our Eclispe Awards...if the Euro's want to come over and run....fine...that doesn't bother me...but the 'win and your in' crap does...even here in the USA, I think the win & your in is bull...one horse jumps up and his only win is in one of these races, and he's then seen in the Derby or BC races....I don't like that.
And...do I see the tracks in Europe going out of their way to provide dirt tracks for our horses...would they switch say, the Arc, to dirt to get some of our horses over there...NOT! We play into their hands, but they don't play into ours...and that, IMO, is also bull.
I beleive that the reason the BC powers that be, decided on SA 2 years in a row (which is total bull) was to draw more Euro's here...it's like the BC folks want to make it as hard as possible for our American horses to win BC races...it's all about $$....greed...that is why they changed the BC format...not to meet the needs of the horsemen and fans...to meet the needs of themselves.

I can't wait til 2010 when the BC is back on dirt...and maybe not too many Euro's will come here and our best horses will ALL be there....what a damned shame that a horse like Rachel A won't run in the biggest championship day we have, because those greedy moron's kept it at SA another year.

Ah....now I feel a little better:faint:

[KingChas]

The Breeders Cup just keeps compounding it's tunnel vision MISTAKES.
Our economy sucks as it is,so why not have the majority of grass running foreign horses in the races to win the millions on the poly( or whatever it is) every race and take it out of the USA.
Makes sense huh?

[Marlin]

If I'm a European and my horse is nominated to the BC, I would tell all to go **** themselves. If you have paid the dues you are eligible. Simple as that.

Win and you are in is so asinine it boggles the mind. If you win one of those races you are 1-9 to receive an invitation anyway. It is just a PR ploy and has practically zero impact on a BC field.