Iran

[lsbets]

I've been following what's going on in Iran on Facebook and Twitter. The tehran bureau's facebook page just changed their image to this:

[lsbets]

This is the post with the picture:

We ask you to please help us send this message to Mr President Obama.

This is the Only question we are asking in the streets today as we wash the blood of our women and children in the streets.

as we scrape the body parts, we why???

please change your profile pictures in solidarity.

thank you for your support

[lsbets]

The page removed the picture after a lot of angry comments from people asking what the Iranians expect Obama to do. I for one would like to see him offer words of support.

[boxcar]

This is the post with the picture:

We ask you to please help us send this message to Mr President Obama.

This is the Only question we are asking in the streets today as we wash the blood of our women and children in the streets.

as we scrape the body parts, we why???

please change your profile pictures in solidarity.

thank you for your support

I guess the poor people in Iran who hunger and thirst for Freedom didn't hear BO's message about how the U.S. shouldn't dictate or force its values upon other nations because that's an arrogant thing to do. Of course, the exception to those words (and there are always, always "exceptions" to BO's lies) is when he went to Israel and demanded of them that they stop building settlements. Funny how that demand somehow didn't translate into trying to force U.S. values upon Israel and BO wasn't considered as being "arrogant" for making it.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Obama is eager to "get in bed" with I'madinnerjacket and the mullahs.
He has no use for the common people.
We know who's side Obama is on. The infidel dog.
Remember, he told the world he is a muslim.
Wonder how long before WE are in the streets here?

Sorry Iran, we got our own tyrant to worry about.
Maybe Israel will help you - THEY at least understand.
Afraid the USA is no longer in the business of defending freedom.
The USA only apologizes these days.

And the clerics know it.
So does Kim Dung Il.
We are officially a joke to the world's tyrants now.
We got us a Chicken N Chief.

[dutchboy]

What happened to the story that Pres Ahmadinejad was one of the students holding the hostages in the mid 80's?

Arab TV has confirmed that tanks are rolling in to the Tehran city centre.

[so.cal.fan]

lsbets?
Are they saying anything about a report yesterday that helicopters were drenching the people in the streets with some kind of hot liquid/chemical?
The fact that the government won't allow news reporters in, tells me they are killing people.

[lsbets]

lsbets?
Are they saying anything about a report yesterday that helicopters were drenching the people in the streets with some kind of hot liquid/chemical?
The fact that the government won't allow news reporters in, tells me they are killing people.

There was a post about helicopters dropping a liquid on people, sounded like a mix of a riot agent and water.

There are some pretty graphic videos on there of protesters getting shot and beaten. One very graphic video of a young woman shot in the heart.

There are also some posts about local Iranian police being hesitant to use force on the protesters, but that Amadinijad (? I can't spell his name) brought in Hezbollah fighters to fill the ranks of the security forces, because Hezbollah would not hesitate to use violence.

[46zilzal]

People's destiny is in THEIR hands. Wu wei, a guiding principle of the Tao: LEAVE THINGS TO THEIR OWN DEVICES

involves knowing when to act and when not to act. Another perspective to this is that "Wu Wei" means natural action - as planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing.

[Marshall Bennett]

The fact that the government won't allow news reporters in, tells me they are killing people.
With a tyrant like Ahmadinejad at the helm would this be so uncommon ? Protesters have always been dealt with harshly in Iran , often beaten to death , even when the Shah was in power . Nothing would surprise me now .

[lsbets]

Here is the latest update on fb:

The protests continued today. very scattered. our numbers have gone severely down. There are soldiers literally lined up on the streets. There is a very dark cloud over us. Please understand, we do not have any way of confirming how many people lost there lives in yesterdays massacre. They have cut all communications to a halt. Internet speeds are at 15kbps.

[Greyfox]

There are numerous outcomes that can transpire. The last Iranian revolution took over a year.
But let's assume for the moment that Amadinnerjacket retains the Presidency.
How the hell does Obama ever plan on talking with that Mad Man and the Supreme Ruler whose followers are shouting "Death To America?"
The reality is Obama may want to talk, they don't. Get that straight.
The time has come for Obama and the free world to strongly voice concern about the blatant oppression that is going on in Iran.

[lsbets]

Could you imagine if Kennedy had said "Glad I'm not a Berliner" or if Reagan had said "Hey Gorby, nice wall." While Obama has gotten a little tougher in his language this weekend, his initial words legitimized the mullahs and their control over the election results. Obama needs to be the leader of the free world and speak out in support of the protesters who are in the streets risking their lives for their own freedom.

If the protesters can keep up their morale in the face of violence and continue to take to the streets, the regime will fall. If they slowly dissipate and things calm down in a week or so, the hardliners will be stronger, and no more willing to talk and compromise next month than they were last month. Inaction on our part guarantees the need for military intervention if we do not want Iran to go nuclear. Obama has the world's largest microphone, he needs to use it.

[boxcar]

Could you imagine if Kennedy had said "Glad I'm not a Berliner" or if Reagan had said "Hey Gorby, nice wall." While Obama has gotten a little tougher in his language this weekend, his initial words legitimized the mullahs and their control over the election results. Obama needs to be the leader of the free world and speak out in support of the protesters who are in the streets risking their lives for their own freedom.

If the protesters can keep up their morale in the face of violence and continue to take to the streets, the regime will fall. If they slowly dissipate and things calm down in a week or so, the hardliners will be stronger, and no more willing to talk and compromise next month than they were last month. Inaction on our part guarantees the need for military intervention if we do not want Iran to go nuclear. Obama has the world's largest microphone, he needs to use it.

He won't because he's not a lover of freedom. He hates the idea of limited government. He said as much during his campaign when he criticized the Constitution.

Boxcar
P.S. But I could tell him what to do with that big mike.

[Sid]

Could you imagine if . . . Reagan had said "Hey Gorby, nice wall." While Obama has gotten a little tougher in his language this weekend, his initial words legitimized the mullahs and their control over the election results. Obama needs to be the leader of the free world and speak out in support of the protesters who are in the streets risking their lives for their own freedom.
Spot players and cherry pickers abound in this world. From the Boston Globe, June 9 2004:
By Derrick Z. Jackson

PRESIDENT Bush proclaimed: "Ronald Reagan believed that God takes the side of justice and that America has a special calling to oppose tyranny and defend freedom." In the first three days of news reports on the death of the former president, not a single major American newspaper, television station, or politician has dared to exhume this counterpoint to the Reagan's legacy: "Immoral, evil, and totally un-Christian."

These were the words of Bishop Desmond Tutu, spoken on Capitol Hill at a House hearing in late 1984. It was just after Reagan's easy reelection. Tutu had just been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his nonviolent struggle against apartheid in South Africa. Throughout the United States a rising number of Americans were calling for American companies to stop doing business there.

Reagan ignored them. The president of so-called sunny optimism attempted to blind Americans with his policy of "constructive engagement" with the white minority regime in Pretoria. All constructive engagment did was give the white minority more time to mow down the black majority in the streets and keep dreamers of democracy, such as Nelson Mandela, behind bars.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/09/reagans_heart_of_darkness/
A good many politicians, policy wonks, academics and others from the right of center -- to say nothing of Demo Hawk Zbigniew Brzezinski -- have found Obama's response to be spot on thus far. Y'all oughta give your kees a freaking rest from all that jerking occasionally.

[ArlJim78]

Obama's weakness and indifference to the uprising in Iran has been obvious to everyone, especially those in Iran. His indifference has given legitimacy to both Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, and he has weakened his position for when he sits down with them to negociate, which was his grand plan all along. His initial comments regarding not meddling were appalling, it was only after 90% of the leaders of the world forcefully condemned the actions that he managed to come up with yesterdays mild statement.

[lsbets]

Y'all oughta give your kees a freaking rest from all that jerking occasionally.

What's a "kees"?

Hey, maybe you're proud of Obama. I'm not. He is embarrassing. And I've earned the right to jerk any g-damned key I want to. If you have a problem with it, too freakin bad.

If you have anything relevant to add, please do so, but based on your very limited track record, I don't see anything of value coming anytime soon.

[Sid]

What's a "kees"?
It's a "knees." My bad.

Hey, maybe you're proud of Obama. I'm not. He is embarrassing. And I've earned the right to jerk any g-damned key I want to. If you have a problem with it, too freakin bad.

If you have anything relevant to add, please do so, but based on your very limited track record, I don't see anything of value coming anytime soon.
Sorry you see irrelevancy and nothing of value in my posts. So it goes. And you may be right.

If you care to follow up on Ronald Reagan's thundering silence for years vis a vis South African apartheid and repression, which is relevant by any standard, please do.

I am not especially an Obama fan. I merely got into a "conversation" that was waltzing merrily along asserting that anyone with an IQ above zero has deep problems with Obama's reaction to events in Iran. The record shows otherwise.

[Tom]

It's a "knees." My bad.

If you care to follow up on Ronald Reagan's thundering silence for years vis a vis South African apartheid and repression, which is relevant by any standard, please do.



History lesson here. Reagan's number one priority was communism, aka Russia. He handled rather remarkably. And as far as S Africa, they had a border problem - people were sneaking IN, not out. S Africa is not comparable to Iran by any stretch of the imagination. S Africa was not a threat to anyone. Iran is.

But whatever Obama says is irrelevant - he has already labeled himself weak in the eyes of the world tyrants. No one considers him anything of any consequence.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Obama is eager to "get in bed" with I'madinnerjacket and the mullahs.
He has no use for the common people.
We know who's side Obama is on. The infidel dog.
Remember, he told the world he is a muslim.
Wonder how long before WE are in the streets here?

Sorry Iran, we got our own tyrant to worry about.
Maybe Israel will help you - THEY at least understand.
Afraid the USA is no longer in the business of defending freedom.
The USA only apologizes these days.

And the clerics know it.
So does Kim Dung Il.
We are officially a joke to the world's tyrants now.
We got us a Chicken N Chief.


I guess your very happy not living in Imadinnerjacket;s country...You would be dinner...Dont understand your hatred for your Camander and Chief

[Marshall Bennett]

But whatever Obama says is irrelevant - he has already labeled himself weak in the eyes of the world tyrants. No one considers him anything of any consequence.
He isn't taken seriously anywhere beyond our borders . Ya know it reminds me alot of Khrushchev and how he tested JFK with the Cuban missle crisis . He didn't take JFK seriously , thought he was a chump , if he was allowed a safe haven in Cuba with an arsenal , he would ultimately have a free hand in dealing with the United States and move accordingly . Of course JFK called his bluff and all bets were off . Obama is looked upon in much the same manner , by all of our enemies . He'll be tested and one thing for sure , in favor of our enemies , is the fact that Obama ... is no JFK .

[HUSKER55]

Does anybody really believe rhetoric will solve any problems? Until there is a massive body count and we lay down the law, nothing is gong to change.

This babble has been going on for years and will continue for years until the citizens of Iran stand up and fight for their country and quit waiting for some body else to solve their problems. If their country is not work fighting for then why should we?

I am not in favor of any "gentlemens war". Wipe em out or stay out.
This police action nonsense is baloney.

Now, if you believe BO has what it takes for that then you need to see your doctor in the morning. Get real. If BO would order some snipers to eliminate some stress the situation would change quickly. BO hasn't done anything.

This situation is going to get worse.

JMHO

[Tom]

Obama has expressed his desire to talk with the oppressors in Iran,not the people. Says all I need to know about him.

[rastajenk]

When you're a community organizer, you deal more with other organizers than you do with the community. That's just how it is.

Elevating a community organizer to the post of Leader of the Free World is the biggest piece of Stupid imaginable.

[hcap]

Obama's statement this afternoon on Iran:

"The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights.

As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect the dignity of its own people and govern through consent, not coercion.

Martin Luther King once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." I believe that. The international community believes that. And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples' belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness."

.................................................. .....................

I think he struck the correct balance.

Off course he could have sold the Mullahs weapons instead and supported the Contras, ala Ronnie the pure instead.

[hcap]

http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/chatham-house-study-definitively-shows.html

From Juan Cole......

Chatham House Study Definitively Shows Massive Ballot Fraud in Iran's Reported Results

An authoritative study from Chatham House (pdf) , the renowned UK think tank, finds that with regard to the official statistics on the recent presidential election in Iran released by the Interior Ministry, something is rotten in Tehran. The authors compared the provincial returns in the 2005 and 2009 elections against the 2006 census and found:

In two Conservative provinces, Mazandaran and Yazd, a turnout of
more than 100% was recorded.

At a provincial level, there is no correlation between the increased
turnout, and the swing to Ahmadinejad. This challenges the notion
that his victory was due to the massive participation of a previously
silent Conservative majority.

In a third of all provinces, the official results would require that
Ahmadinejad took not only all former conservative voters, and all
former centrist voters, and all new voters, but also up to 44% of former
Reformist voters, despite a decade of conflict between these two
groups.

In 2005, as in 2001 and 1997, conservative candidates, and
Ahmadinejad in particular, were markedly unpopular in rural areas.
That the countryside always votes conservative is a myth. The claim
that this year Ahmadinejad swept the board in more rural provinces
flies in the face of these trends.'



Note that many reformists did not vote in 2005, because they had become discouraged by the way the hard liners had blocked all their programs. Some 10.5 million persons who did not vote in 2005 did vote in 2009. It is highly unlikely that most of these non-voters in 2005 were conservatives who now came out for Ahmadinejad in 2009. But to do as well as the regime claimed, Ahmadinejad would have needed to attract substantial numbers of these voters to himself.

Former President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani got 6.2 million votes in 2005. He is a centrist, pragmatic conservative. How likely is it that his constituency abandoned pragmatic conservatism for Ahmadinejad's quirky hard line? Over 10 million voted in 2005 for reformist candidates.

Ahmadinejad got 13 million more votes this time than the combined total for all conservatives in 2005. The authors of this study concede that Ahmadinejad could have held on to all the 11.5 million hard line voters from 2005. But how likely is that, really? Some of those who voted hard line surely found Ahmadinejad's style abrasive and his policies, such as provoking high inflation through pumping too much oil money into the economy as a reward to his constituents, annoying.

So over all, let's say he captured Rafsanjani's entire faction in the face of Rafsanjani's own dislike of him. That would have give him less than half of his new votes. So he would have had to convinced over half of the voters who sat 2005 out to vote for him; but those were the ones most disgusted with the hardliners. Or he would have needed to win over substantial amounts of the old Khatami reformist vote. Not likely.

And in 10 of 30 provinces, the hard liners did poorly enough in 2005 that Ahmadinejad would have had to gain the votes of all those who did not vote that year but did vote in 2009, of all the Rafsanjani pragmatic conservatives, and of nearly half the reformist vote.........

There's more

http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/chatham-house-study-definitively-shows.html

[rastajenk]

I think he struck the correct balance.
Once again, he voted "Present."

[Tom]

What did he balance, his empty talk and his persistent apologies? :D

[boxcar]

Obama's statement this afternoon on Iran:

"The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights.

As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect the dignity of its own people and govern through consent, not coercion.

Martin Luther King once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." I believe that. The international community believes that. And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples' belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness."

.................................................. .....................

I think he struck the correct balance.

Off course he could have sold the Mullahs weapons instead and supported the Contras, ala Ronnie the pure instead.

Hey, 'cap, I find it odd that your messiah doesn't think that those "universal rights" to assemble and free speech are tantamount to low level terrorism. I guess that only applies here in the U.S. when those universal rights are applied for purposes of political dissent against the government?

That "balance" that you think he struck would have been spot-on if he had warned the Iranian people that when they practice those "universal rights" they must be willing to pay the ultimate price for engaging in low level terrorism.

Boxcar
P.S. In light in all this his sympathies for the loss of innocent life over there rings wee bit hollow, don't you think?

[Light]

And what did Bush senior do when thousands died in Tiananmen Square in the name of Democracy? If you think this is a partisan issue,you're sorely mistaken.

[Marshall Bennett]

Looks as if Obama will take the same approach with Iran that Carter did with the fall of the Shah , which is basically nothing . Obama stands a better chance of looking the better of the two as we had so much vested financial interest in the former Iran . Obama will be alright with his decision to lay off and will be viewed by liberals especially as a heroic move . The fact that de doesn't move at all on any non-domestic issues is the key , the fact that he wouldn't know what do do if he were to make a move is crucial , so its best to sit and do nothing and take credit for that .. its the easiest kind .

[Tom]

And what did Bush senior do when thousands died in Tiananmen Square in the name of Democracy? If you think this is a partisan issue,you're sorely mistaken.

That really wasn't his problem,but what he did in Iraq was - he told those people to sand up and overthrow Sadamm and then left them hanging out to dry. I called him on this before.

No, it is not a partisan issue.

But with Dippy the President out there apologizing to everyone and then wanting to negotiate with everyone, this is what you get. K Korea threatening war, Iran telling us to shove it, renewed violence in Iraq ( where is the MSM coverge of this huge attack over the weekend????).

We need to pick our battles and not invite new ones where we don't have a need to intervene.

[newtothegame]

Hmmm for what it is worth, I truly believe that BO has his hands more then full here. When it comes to Iran, there really isnt alot he can do. Sure he could go on and Open his mouth and I am positive he would insert his foot. The "movement" doesnt need to be seen as having the U.S on their side. It is best that he don't meddle for NOW. Although this is subject to change based on events as they happen.
As for N Korea, I consider what they are doing as an act of WAR. They have stated they will fire a missile at a state in the U.S. If that missile gets fired, ACT OF WAR. How anyone can see this as anything else would amaze me. As soon as that missile hits international air space, it would dissapear along with N Korea. I would rain down almost our entire arsenal. No troops required except for clean up. Now I am sure the libs will come hollering. But I would suggest to them if they are willing to have another country, STATE their intentions and then follow through with an act of war...well so be it. As for Al Qeada and them possibly obtaining pakistani nukes. I guess anything is possible. But any country has to know that the release of a nuclear weapon would almost certainly require a like response. This is where B O scares the crap out of me. Does he have the fortitude? I am sure that Al Qeada would lose their cause and they would have to know this. There are NO winners in the release of a nuclear device in the Middle East.

[PaceAdvantage]

Considering what happened at Pearl Harbor in 1941, it is frightening there isn't more of an uproar over N. Korea's stated intention of test firing a missile in the direction of Hawaii....

[boxcar]

The Libs are doing what they do best, PA -- playing ostrich. They would rather not face reality.

Boxcar

[hcap]

Once again, he voted "Present."
Present??????????????"The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights.Once again I think he struck the correct balance.

... Of course he could have sold the Mullahs weapons instead and supported the Contras, ala Ronnie the pure instead

[Light]

A big reason not to meddle in Iran's internal affairs is that Iranians are smarter than the American right wing who forget that America supported Saddam and provided him with WMD's and chemical weapons that resulted in the deaths of over 1 million Iranians in the Iran Iraq war. Most of the protesters have a relative or friend who died at the hands of that American intervention. I dont think they would look upon another American intervention as anything but self interest as opposed to a genuine concern for the Iranian people's cause.And they still remember the American installed Shah who cared not for Iranians but for American interests which resulted in a similar revolt. Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks. Intervening is a lose lose situation. What needs to happen is the coward who they are protesting for needs to show up and speak. People are dying in the streets for him. If that isn't motivation enough for him to put his life on the line,then he is not a man worthy of sacrificing your life for, be it Iranian or American.

[Marshall Bennett]

A big reason not to meddle in Iran's internal affairs is that Iranians are smarter than the American right wing who forget that America supported Saddam and provided him with WMD's and chemical weapons that resulted in the deaths of over 1 million Iranians in the Iran Iraq war. Most of the protesters have a relative or friend who died at the hands of that American intervention. I dont think they would look upon another American intervention as anything but self interest as opposed to a genuine concern for the Iranian people's cause.And they still remember the American installed Shah who cared not for Iranians but for American interests which resulted in a similar revolt. Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks. Intervening is a lose lose situation. What needs to happen is the coward who they are protesting for needs to show up and speak. People are dying in the streets for him. If that isn't motivation enough for him to put his life on the line,then he is not a man worthy of sacrificing your life for, be it Iranian or American.
The Iranian people never had it as good as they did when the Shah was in power . They know that now and want to return to those days . The American presence in Iran was a good thing , I know that first hand because I lived there as a teenager when my dad was stationed there . It was only the twisted work of a religious fanatic that prayed on feeble minds and weak hearts that brought that to an end , and the ignorance of one Jimmy Carter for allowing it to happen . To suggest that Americans had only their own interest at heart , and didn't care for the Iranian people is bullshit . I know that for a fact !!

[Light]

Just because you live somewhere doen't mean you know what's going on. Same goes for Americans living in America.

[rastajenk]

And for moonbats living in Loony Land.

[BenDiesel26]

Just because you live somewhere doen't mean you know what's going on. Same goes for Americans living in America.

Do you know what's going on? If so, what makes you qualified to know what's going on or how Iranians felt then? Any firsthand experience like the poster above? Your quote is hilarious by the way. What country do you live in?

[boxcar]

Do you know what's going on? If so, what makes you qualified to know what's going on or how Iranians felt then? Any firsthand experience like the poster above? Your quote is hilarious by the way. What country do you live in?

Light is the man of the world. He lives everywhere and nowhere and knows nothing.

Boxcar

[Tom]

A good reason not to interfere in Iran is because they are all Iranians.
Both sides or worthless SOBS.

[lsbets]

Do you know what's going on? If so, what makes you qualified to know what's going on or how Iranians felt then? Any firsthand experience like the poster above? Your quote is hilarious by the way. What country do you live in?

My guess would be Light is not too happy with what is going on in Iran because of the potential backlash against Hezbollah (you know, that peaceful group of charity workers he loves to praise). Amadinijad flooded the ranks of his militia with them because the thought was they would have no problems killing Iranians to keep order, but Iranian soldiers and police might refuse orders to kill their own people. When the protesters hear Arabic in the street, they are scared to death. If they were to prevail, Hezbollah would surely come out on the short end, especially since they are seen as foreign meddlers brought in to kill Persians.

Sadly though, it seems that the rallies are fizzling out and nothing is going to change. The Iranians have not found a leader to rally them. If someone would, the regime would fall.

[Track Collector]

Considering what happened at Pearl Harbor in 1941, it is frightening there isn't more of an uproar over N. Korea's stated intention of test firing a missile in the direction of Hawaii....

Frightening, yes. Surprising, no.

Many who experienced Pearl Harbor first-hand have left this life.

Besides, why would we expect those who are clueless to the dangers of socialism to have any better understanding to the dangers of regimes like North Korea?

[Marshall Bennett]

Just because you live somewhere doen't mean you know what's going on. Same goes for Americans living in America.
Okay smartass , let me put it to you this way . I'm sure there were circumstances behind the scenes I wasn't aware of . What I was aware of was the overall moral of the Iranian people of that generation . Altough the Shah ran a tight ship , the people were happy and gracious that there was an American enfluence in their lives . 40,000 Americans lived in Tehran in the early 70's and we were probably welcomed more than in any other country on earth . When the Shah left , so did the Americans and the place turned to absolute shit . Plain & simple . What you see there now is exactly what they got . Huge mistake .

[Tom]

ACORN has gone international.....will they merge with Hezbollah?

[rastajenk]

I'm glad Isbets mentioned Hezbollah. Isn't it odd that it's such a venal sin for the US to "meddle" in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation, but it seems to be certainly all right for Iran to meddle in the affairs of, well, just about every sovereign nation in that part of the world?

And is a tersely worded statement from our great orator the President really meddling? To me, meddling is CIA-backed support (with guns and/or money and/or expertise) for one faction or another. Now that's some meddling you can sink your teeth into. :ThmbUp:

[ArlJim78]

Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks. Intervening is a lose lose situation. What needs to happen is the coward who they are protesting for needs to show up and speak. People are dying in the streets for him. If that isn't motivation enough for him to put his life on the line,then he is not a man worthy of sacrificing your life for, be it Iranian or American.
Umm, they've been doing this for years, and will continue to do so no matter what we do.

Obama's policy is actually lose/lose with regard to Iran. he misjudged them, said he would meet with them, said they had a right to nuclear power, said we're not at war with Islam, basically said a lot of what he thought would be soothing words. He said there was a path forward for them to join the group of respectable nations if they would just unclench their fist.

So what do they do? Ahmadinejad boasts about how rapidly they are moving forward with their accelerators, that the issue of Iran becoming a nuclear nation is settled. then they hold another sham election, filled with obvious fraud, and then brutally beat down and murder peaceful protesters on the street and house to house. When the families come to take the slain bodies of the relatives, they are charged a "bullet tax" in order to claim the body. they are setting up a special court to charge protesters with crimes in order to make an example of them so as to stifle any more of this crazy talk of change.

So the idea of extending the olive branch to Iran, of sitting down with them to negociate without preconditions is a losing strategy, because to do so gives the regime legitmacy. Their oppression has been freshly displayed for anyone who never understood.

Obama acted weak and malleable on this. He started out very neutral "we'll work with whoever wins, the Iranians must decide". then over the past week as others in this country and around the world have showed a much greater degree of outrage, Obama has slowly went from, concern, to gravely concerned, to deeply concerned, and today I hear he actually used the word "outraged" and "heartbreaking". This isn't leadership, he is just playing catch-up because he found himself so out of step with everyone else. again that conveys weakness. Of course his outrage is over the violence, he still takes no sides, he doesn't indicate any displeasure with the regime. He still talks about what they have to do in order to become respectable. he now has nowhere to go with Iran because if he again tries to give them the soothing words and tries to get them to open their fists, he'll look bad for siding with them. and what do they have to fear from Obama anyway? all he offers are words of warning about how the whole world is watching. its totally dishonest for Obama to claim that him taking sides would have appeared as meddling, this is when you WANT to meddle, when people are standing up and fighting to take down a regime that you want eliminated (although with Obama I doubt that he has this goal in mind). Obama is weak because his strategy does not have a goal of defeating this regime, he only wants to get along and shake hands, as if everyone will just forget about everything because he's such a great guy with such great speeches and with a middle name they can relate to and who is eager to blame America first for things in the past.
Iran went from axis of evil and supporter of terrorism under Bush, to lets sit down and talk, and by the way come on over to our barbeque on 4th of July.

The protest leaders have expressed dismay over not being backed up by the US. This uprising is about revolution against the regime, not simply this election or about Mousavi, who is just a vehicle. Its about breaking away and into the modern world.

no dictatorships have been quashed by negociations. they usaully lose their power by a bullet or by the end of a rope. this one will be no different.

[rastajenk]

And in spite of all going on, we still have offered them an open invitation for Fourth of July barbecues. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hMtZsaQT4cTxcgA51WrpiUS6cWGg)

Hold the pulled pork.

[hcap]

The Iranian people never had it as good as they did when the Shah was in power . They know that now and want to return to those days . The American presence in Iran was a good thing , I know that first hand because I lived there as a teenager when my dad was stationed there . It was only the twisted work of a religious fanatic that prayed on feeble minds and weak hearts that brought that to an end , and the ignorance of one Jimmy Carter for allowing it to happen . To suggest that Americans had only their own interest at heart , and didn't care for the Iranian people is bullshit . I know that for a fact !!Did you know about the Savak? You may not be aware of just how much brutality The Shah unleashed on his own people, but I guarantee you the average Iranian has not forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

SAVAK (Persian: ساواک, short for سازمان اطلاعات و امنیت کشور Sazeman-e Ettela'at va Amniyat-e Keshvar, National Intelligence and Security Organization) was the domestic security and intelligence service of Iran from 1957 to 1979. It has been described as Iran's "most hated and feared institution" prior to the revolution of 1979, for its association with the foreign intelligence organizations such as the CIA and its torture and execution of regime opponents.[1][2] At its peak, the organization had as many as 60,000 agents serving in its ranks. It has been estimated that by the time the agency was finally dismantled in 1979 by the Iranian Revolution, as many as one third of all Iranian men had some sort of connection to SAVAK by way of being informants or actual agents.[3]

History

1957-1970

After removing the left-leaning government of Mohammad Mosaddeq, (which had planned to nationalize Iran's oil industry), from power on 19 August 1953, in a coup, supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments, the Shah decided he wanted an effective internal security service and set up the large organization known by the acronym SAVAK in 1957[4] to strengthen his regime by placing political opponents under surveillance and repress dissident movements.

..SAVAK interrogators were sent abroad for "scientific training to prevent unwanted deaths from 'brute force.' Brute force was supplemented with the bastinado; sleep deprivation; extensive solitary confinement; glaring searchlights; standing in one place for hours on end; nail extractions; snakes (favored for use with women); electrical shocks with cattle prods, often into the rectum; cigarette burns; sitting on hot grills; acid dripped into nostrils; near-drownings; mock executions; and an electric chair with a large metal mask to muffle screams while amplifying them for the victim. This latter contraption was dubbed the Apollo—an allusion to the American space capsules. Prisoners were also humiliated by being raped, urinated on, and forced to stand naked.[10] Despite the new 'scientific' methods, the torture of choice remained the traditional bastinado" used to beat soles of the feet. The "primary goal" of those using the bastinados "was to locate arms caches, safe houses and accomplices "

[riskman]

Just because you live somewhere doen't mean you know what's going on. Same goes for Americans living in America.

I am surprised you admit it.

[Marshall Bennett]

SAVAK (Persian: ساواک, short for سازمان اطلاعات و امنیت کشور Sazeman-e Ettela'at va Amniyat-e Keshvar, National Intelligence and Security Organization) was the domestic security and intelligence service of Iran from 1957 to 1979. It has been described as Iran's "most hated and feared institution" prior to the revolution of 1979, for its association with the foreign intelligence organizations such as the CIA and its torture and execution of regime opponents.
Its no secret that the Shah dealt harshly with opponents who's ultimate plan was to bring him down . SAVAK's presence was understood fully by the Iranian people who for the vast majority , had no reason to fear them . I don't condone the types of torture you described , apparently he either did or looked the other way . My contention is the people as a whole were much better off under the Shah than what followed , and I doubt more than a few Iranians today that were around then would disagree .

[hcap]

My contention is the people as a whole were much better off under the Shah than what followed , and I doubt more than a few Iranians today that were around then would disagreeYou may be right. But our involvement in the overthrow of Irans' democratically elected and widely supported government of Mohammad Mosaddeq, (who had planned to nationalize Iran's oil industry), in a coup, supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments, and then the subsequent installation of the Shah and his Savak, led to the rise of the Mullahs and the Iranian revolution.

I doubt though that the Shah was as popular as you paint considering the events that led to his crowning.

[Light]

Do you know what's going on?

Yes. I knew the Iraq invasion was bull and so did alot of other people.People like you didn't and are still in the dark. Enough said.

[Light]

My guess would be Light is not too happy with what is going on in Iran because of the potential backlash against Hezbollah

Hezbollah has nothing to do with this. I am on the side of the protestors.

[Light]

Okay smartass , let me put it to you this way . I'm sure there were circumstances behind the scenes I wasn't aware of . What I was aware of was the overall moral of the Iranian people of that generation .

The moral of that story was that anywhere from 6 million to 9 million Iranians revolted through the streets to get rid of the American Shah who killed thousands of his fellow citizens. Hardly the picture of contentment that you percieved.

[Light]

Re: my comment: Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks.

Umm, they've been doing this for years, and will continue to do so no matter what we do.


You got it backwards. Ahmadinejad has even went on 60 minutes complaining that he made several attempts to open dialogue with Bush regarding the Nuclear arms issue. The WH's only response was that "we dont negotiate with countries who support terrorists". Poor GW.the uneducated. (He doesn't realize Israel's top leaders all have roots in terrorism,but thats another story) And no I'm not trying to bring Israel into this. Just pointing out what a poor excuse Bush had for doing nothing in this area for 8 years,except to act like a boorish redneck.

[cj's dad]

Light, aren't the JEWS somehow at fault? By your logic they always are !!

Actually, I posted the above before I read this:

"(He doesn't realize Israel's top leaders all have roots in terrorism,but thats another story) And no I'm not trying to bring Israel into this."

His consistency is remarkable !!:lol:

A big reason not to meddle in Iran's internal affairs is that Iranians are smarter than the American right wing who forget that America supported Saddam and provided him with WMD's and chemical weapons that resulted in the deaths of over 1 million Iranians in the Iran Iraq war. Most of the protesters have a relative or friend who died at the hands of that American intervention. I dont think they would look upon another American intervention as anything but self interest as opposed to a genuine concern for the Iranian people's cause.And they still remember the American installed Shah who cared not for Iranians but for American interests which resulted in a similar revolt. Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks. Intervening is a lose lose situation. What needs to happen is the coward who they are protesting for needs to show up and speak. People are dying in the streets for him. If that isn't motivation enough for him to put his life on the line,then he is not a man worthy of sacrificing your life for, be it Iranian or American.

[Boris]

Reminder: We elected a complete novice. He had no executive experience. He had no foreign policy experience. He made as Secretary of State another novice. The most important thing is to not screw up. Inaction is more comfortable than accountability for doing something. It will be the middle of next year before this administration grows any grapes. That is why all this is happening now. They know we elected a massive rookie.

Strap in. It will get worse.

[BenDiesel26]

Yes. I knew the Iraq invasion was bull and so did alot of other people.People like you didn't and are still in the dark. Enough said.

I never said one thing about Iraq, I was speaking solely of Iran. Do you know what's going on in Iran? What country are you from? Answer the questions please.

[BenDiesel26]

Re: my comment: Likewise the Iranian government will accuse the U.S. of subversion and close the door to any nuclear talks.



You got it backwards. Ahmadinejad has even went on 60 minutes complaining that he made several attempts to open dialogue with Bush regarding the Nuclear arms issue. The WH's only response was that "we dont negotiate with countries who support terrorists". Poor GW.the uneducated. (He doesn't realize Israel's top leaders all have roots in terrorism,but thats another story) And no I'm not trying to bring Israel into this. Just pointing out what a poor excuse Bush had for doing nothing in this area for 8 years,except to act like a boorish redneck.

Uh, Ahmadinejad is a liar. If you think otherwise, you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. If you don't think he is trying to obtain nuclear weapons, I have some beachfront property in Kansas I can sell you. It looks like Bush was right, and so was McCain. The Iranian government is a fraud, and now the whole world knows it. Why engage the fraudulent government who is bringing in terrorists (Hezbollah) to kill their own citizens? The Iranian government is a terrorist state, this much is known. Do you think engaging Iran is going to accomplish anything? They are making a mockery of our current president and laughing in his face right now. Almost half of what he said in Cairo has now been shown to be a sham. Same with North Korea who is planning some more nuclear tests, threatening all-out nuclear war, about to launch a missle at Hawaii, and sailing weapons around the world while pointing and laughing at the US Navy ship following them knowing Obama will do nothing.

[PaceAdvantage]

And here I thought they told us Obama's winning smile would bring peace throughout the world...oh well....

[newtothegame]

And here I thought they told us Obama's winning smile would bring peace throughout the world...oh well....


So theres not a rainbow??? No moon beams in which to ride to lala land?? And I was so looking forward to candy coated rain drops :( :lol:

[NJ Stinks]

And here I thought they told us Obama's winning smile would bring peace throughout the world...oh well....

What "they" told you is that the majority in the U.S. now rejects Republican views on a long list of issues. Obama's winning smile would mean jack otherwise. :rolleyes:

[hcap]

http://www.alternet.org/world/140819/iran_had_a_democracy_before_we_took_it_away/

“The central story of Iran over the last 200 years has been national humiliation at the hands of foreign powers who have subjugated and looted the country,” Stephen Kinzer, the author of “All the Shah’s Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror,” told me. “For a long time the perpetrators were the British and Russians. Beginning in 1953, the United States began taking over that role. In that year, the American and British secret services overthrew an elected government, wiped away Iranian democracy, and set the country on the path to dictatorship.”

“Then, in the 1980s, the U.S. sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, providing him with military equipment and intelligence that helped make it possible for his army to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians,” Kinzer said. “Given this history, the moral credibility of the U.S. to pose as a promoter of democracy in Iran is close to nil.

Especially ludicrous is the sight of people in Washington calling for intervention on behalf of democracy in Iran when just last year they were calling for the bombing of Iran. If they had had their way then, many of the brave protesters on the streets of Tehran today—the ones they hold up as heroes of democracy—would be dead now.”


http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/

The contemporary history of Iran had been intertwined with oil, a highly sought after energy source by the west, since 1901 when a 60 year exclusive rights were given to William Knox D'Arcy, a British subject, for oil exploration and exploitation in Iran's southern provinces. In 1908, oil was struck and The Anglo-Persian Oil Company was established. Just before the start of World War I in 1914, the British government purchased 51% of the company's shares. The British thus created a beachhead and practically colonized the southern west corner of Iran, directly and indirectly interfering in the political affairs of the entire country. APOC cheated on the meager 16% payment to Iran and treated Iranian oil workers with contempt and racism in their own land. It all came to a head in July 1946 when about 6,000 Iranian oil workers went on a strike in Agajari. Their clash with the government troops resulted in more that 200 dead and wounded workers

...On August 15, 1953, with participation of the Shah and their Iranian collaborators, a CIA drafted plan codenamed Operation Ajax, headed by Kermit Roosevelt, went into action, but it failed to dislodge Mossadegh from power. In the second attempt on August 19, 1953, [28 Mordad 1332] the violent overthrow of the government was accomplished.

...Mossadegh was convicted of treason. He was placed in solitary confinement for three years followed by house arrest for the remainder of his life in his ancestral village of Ahmad Abad

.................................................. ................................

Anybody think most Iranians are unaware of this?

[ArlJim78]

.................................................. ................................

Anybody think most Iranians are unaware of this?
yes, unaware or unconcerned.
the stuff you posted is completely irrelevant to anything going on today.

[hcap]

George Santayana
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

[Tom]

Good point, hcap, and very topical.
Remember the Iranian hostage crisis - and never, ever trust a sinking Iranian.
Their word means nothing and they are uncivilized terrorists.

What happens in the streets of Iran is their problem, not ours.
Freedom for Iranians is hardly worth worrying about. They had no respect for the freedom of our people back then. Why should we care about theirs now?


Obviously, this is a job for the UN, not the US.

[hcap]

You pretty much said the same about the Iraqis at one point. Pretty much "ungrateful" for all we had done.

I guess the ME is just chock full of human anchors.
I suspect some indiscriminate nuking is overdue.
What ya think?

Of course Kim Jong will have to be taken car of as well.
BTW, when was the last time I posted Slim Pickens riding the nuke?

[Tom]

Iran - threatens to wipe out Israel and is developing nukes - Obama response - a picnic!

K Korea has threatened to wipe US off the may, has nuke power and is planing a missile try on 7/4 towards on of our states...Obama response.....a softball game? Flag football?


The turkey is a joke and everyone in the world knows it.

Just so we are clear on Day 1, I fully support a strike on N Korea TODAY.
No other justification is needed. Tactical nukes would be appropriate - we have the technology to surgically remove the cancer that is Kim Dung Ill and not do too much other damage. The rest of the world needs to know this. And if Obama had the balls to do it, even I would support him.

[Light]

Light, aren't the JEWS somehow at fault? By your logic they always are !!


No the Jews are not at fault here. As you know I usually equate the negative with them ;) . This is a positive awakening on the part of the Iranian people, as gruesome as it is.

[Light]

I never said one thing about Iraq, I was speaking solely of Iran.

My point was that you did not know what was happening when Bush beat the war drums for going to war in Iraq. I knew,you didn't even though we both live in the same country. I assume this answers your other 2 questions.

Do you know what's going on in Iran? What country are you from? Answer the questions please.

[Light]

Iran - threatens to wipe out Israel and is developing nukes - Obama response - a picnic!

This is repeated Israeli propaganda BS to use as an excuse to commit further Zionistic acts of terrorism on a country consisting of 2/3 of the people under 30 who as you can see,do not necessarily agree with their leaders.

He said 1 time that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map. When asked for clarification he said the Israel as we know now i.E. exclusively Jewish state that denies Palestinians right to return to their homeland. In other words he wants a change in the name of the region(Israel) and its policies towards its former inhabitants. It is Israeli propaganda who twist it into meaning a nuclear holocaust so they can justify blowing peoples brains out and turning schmucks like you into a cheerleading squad for death. If he actually blew up the area known as Israel,the Palestinians would be livid. Its their homeland! You and fox news know nothing about the ME.

[lsbets]

Here is a link to some good info from Iran yesterday about the brutality of the police forces after Ahmendinijad unleashed them. You know, he's that nice, honest man Light refers to who only wants to see justice in the middle east. Caution: There is a very graphic picture of one of the protesters who was attacked with an axe. I guess that's his version of justice.

"An Iranian blogger (whose URL I will not publish) live blogging from Baharestan Square in central Tehran today captures but brief glimpses of the unimaginable horror that took place today. Bus loads of protesters were stopped and unloaded from their buses by "black-clad police" and literally herded. When the massing was sufficient, as the barely controllably distraught Tehran caller to CNN described first hand, hundreds of the regime's Basij thugs poured out of an adjoining mosque and commenced a massacre with axes, clubs, guns and gas.

From the live blogger's eyewitness account:

>More than 10.000 Bassij Milittias get position in Central Tehran, including Baharestan Sq.
>Army Helycopters flying over Baharestan and Vali Asr Sq.
>The streets, squares and around BAHARESTAN (Approx. South-eastern of Tehran) is swarming with military forces, civilian forces, the security motorists
>The croud have moved to the south of baharestan, the situation is bad, the shooting has started
>In Baharestan Sq. in the Police shooting, A girl is shot and the police is not allowing to let them help
>In Baharestan we saw militia with axe choping people like meat - blood everywhere - like butcher

This is the Iranian regime, wading into its own unarmed people and axing them to death, bludgeoning women (seen as the greatest threat to the regime) and throwing them to their deaths from pedestrian bridges. The same Iranian regime whose embassy officials are invited to American embassies around the world to celebrate on July 4th, of all things, a successful revolution."

http://threatswatch.org/rapidrecon/2009/06/unimaginable-horror-in-tehran/

[Tom]

Well, ls, that opens up the picnic games possibilities.:eek:

[newtothegame]

With an apology ....... He is good at those....

Ahmadinejad Tells Obama Not to Interfere in Iran, Seeks Public Apology


Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called on President Obama on Thursday not to interfere in Iranian affairs after the U.S. president said he was "appalled and outraged" by post-election violence, a news agency reported.

"Mr. Obama made a mistake to say those things ... our question is why he fell into this trap and said things that previously (former U.S. President George W.) Bush used to say," the semi-official Fars News Agency quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Do you want to speak (with Iran) with this tone? If that is your stance then what is left to talk about," said Ahmadinejad. "I hope you avoid interfering in Iran's affairs and express your regret in a way that the Iranian nation is informed of it."

more at the link www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529022,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529022,00.html)

[Secretariat]

Obama is doing nothing different than G. H.W. Bush did when the democratic uprising occurred in Tiannmen Square in 1989. He criticized the Chinese response and simply cut some military sales to China and cancelled some meetings. Obama is essentially doing the same thing. Criticizing the crackdown and cancelling meetings.

This is difficult for Americans to watch. If they had television back during the French Revolution and Americans were watching it and seeing George Washington's failure to actively get involved as people died over there I imagine they'd be saying the same thing. Especially a country that was an active ally that helped us during our revolution with the British.

But Washington laid it out quite clearly in his farewell address warning us of foreign entanglements EXCEPT in the defense of our nation. GW ignored that warning in Iraq and all Americans have paid the price. In fact the FBI released more documents today that confirmed Hussein's reasons for not denying WMD's was because of fear of an Iranian invasion and that if the UN inspectors confirmed this he would have to cut a deal with the Americans for protection. This information was known by the FBI in 2003 before the invasion.

My point is - Yes, it is tough to watch the horrors in other countries as they fight for freedoms, but as GW said in his 2000 election, "We are not the world's policemen." He didn't practice what he preached, and may have done well to review Washington's Farewell to the Nation when he left office.

We can sanction, pressure other countries in the region, but we cannot actively become involved in another countries political process without paying a significant price.

[Tom]

Washington was not faced with the possibility of WMD being handed over to terrorists, as BOTH SIDES thought might happen with SH, and he did not just preside over 9-11.

As far as Iran goes, if this is tough to watch on TV, why on earth would you want to negotiate anything with these murderers? As Obambi clearly does.
What would you possibly believe from them?

[Greyfox]

With an apology ....... He is good at those....

Ahmadinejad Tells Obama Not to Interfere in Iran, Seeks Public Apology


Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called on President Obama on Thursday not to interfere in Iranian affairs after the U.S. president said he was "appalled and outraged" by post-election violence, a news agency reported.

"Mr. Obama made a mistake to say those things ... our question is why he fell into this trap and said things that previously (former U.S. President George W.) Bush used to say," the semi-official Fars News Agency quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Do you want to speak (with Iran) with this tone? If that is your stance then what is left to talk about," said Ahmadinejad. "I hope you avoid interfering in Iran's affairs and express your regret in a way that the Iranian nation is informed of it."

more at the link www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529022,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529022,00.html)

Good point.
Christopher Hitchens of Slate has also penned an interesting article echoing similar thoughts. He believes that Iran's Theocracy will always be Paranoid regarding any Western Society.
He has sat in prayers at Tehran University where in the preacher has led the audicence in Marg bar Amrika ("Death to America") chants.

His article is under the title of:
Persian ParanoiaIranian leaders will always believe Anglo-Saxons are plotting against them.

By Christopher Hitchens

*************

At one point Hitchens offers the present White House administration the following advice:

1. There is nothing the west can do to avoid being accused of intervening in Iran's affairs.

2. It is a mistake to believe their exalted leaders are acting rationally.

3. Obama should quit referring to the Khamenei in "fawning tones" referring to him as a Supreme leader.

4. One day Obama will have to face the young Iranian democrats who have risked their lives in these recent demonstrations.

It's a good read and it's at:


http://www.slate.com/id/2221020/

[Secretariat]

Washington was not faced with the possibility of WMD being handed over to terrorists, as BOTH SIDES thought might happen with SH, and he did not just preside over 9-11.

As far as Iran goes, if this is tough to watch on TV, why on earth would you want to negotiate anything with these murderers? As Obambi clearly does.
What would you possibly believe from them?

Washington had to help build a new government, handel the financial problems of a new nation, repair relations with GReat Britain who viewed Washington as a terrorist who was Wanted Dead or Alive, and deal with Indians who had previously joined with the French in wars in the colonies. He had to help lead troops against an internal rebellion.

He didn't have to deal with phantom WMD's, and he wasn't reading My Pet Goat on 911 ignoring warnings about Bin Laden Determined To Attack In US.

I'd have been a lot mroe comfortable with a different GW in charge on 911. So, Tom now you're questioning the founders when they don't suit your ideology.

[rastajenk]

Did you wish to address his question in his second 'graph? Or is it too complicated?

[Tom]

I'd have been a lot mroe comfortable with a different GW in charge on 911. So, Tom now you're questioning the founders when they don't suit your ideology.

I'd say old George handled things just fine.
And NO, I did not question the founding Fathers - I pointed out that the world they lived in was a far different one than the one Bush lives in. The world was far different in 2000 than it was in 2001.

Can you imagine Al Gore being prez on 9-11?

Back to Iran - answer to my question?