RS-POS

[gambler844]

Has anyone tried Cramers RS-POS. If so, how did it work and does he have a chat room?

[GR1@HTR]

www.rspos.com

[kitts]

You have the link for the chat room. Let me tell you about the Reports. I have been using them for years. Alhtough I do use other software for handicapping, that changes from time to time, but I will always have RS/POS. It has a daunting learning curve for sure, but once that is accomplished you will have the best picture of race shape I've ever used. Add to that the Cramer speed figure(a final time number) and the Cramer Projected Speed Rating plus some nice Trainer/Jockey/Pedigree stats. The Report even analyzes the "running style" of the jockey. This Report can prove to be a great adjunct to your handicapping.

[so.cal.fan]

I have used it from time to time in So. Cal.
Works best on DIRT ONLY. Don't go back too far with the pace lines........3 or 4 months back is probably best guide.
Be careful with class.......a EP 4 with a paceline out of a much higher class race.....will beat a E1 out of a much cheaper race.....9 times out of 10.
Does not work at all (at least in So. Calif) on TURF. Don't waste your time.

[kitts]

Well, that's what make horseracing. I use RS/POS successfully on turf races. I almost always accept last race last fraction advantage of 5 ticks as a must bet. And the class issue can apply,dirt and turf, but RS/POS reports comes with brief codes of various factors that apply to each horse including Class factors. Works for me.

[JimL]

SCF and Kitts, I also use RS-POS however I have never really been able to make a confident call on a PS4 or S4 with 7 or 8 Quirin speed points. we know these horses are going to the front and we also know that they should be laying 4th or close to it.
What to do?

[so.cal.fan]

Jim,
I would say, base your decision on the class of the race you are taking the best pace figures from.........it probably won't matter if the horse runs as a PS, P, EP or E. It has shown it can compete on the pace against better.

Kitts:
I just do the math in my head, I'm sure I make a lot of errors.
Obviously the computer print outs on the RS_POS site are more accurate than so.cal.fan.
I nearly always prefer a fast close on grass....unless the only class is also the only speed.......as in Charlie Bates on April 23 at Hollywood Park......SERIOUSLY outclassed the weak fifth race field and went wire to wire.

[andicap]

I've looked at them a little -- you're right Kitts the learning curve is steep.

One of my concerns was the RS-POS is based on the BEST first fraction
in the horses record, right? I mean, why would you use the best fraction in today's race. Why is that meaningful?
Or do I have this all mixed up?

[GameTheory]

He says he uses the best first fraction (from the last 10) because it works best:

http://www.rspos.com/rsinfo.html

[GR1@HTR]

I used to have a computer generated spot play based on 2 yrs data..hit something like 52% w/ positive ROI. Cramer RSPOS1 was one of the factoids.

Also Jim Cramer of HDW has excellent stuff for us data geeks in the barry meadow newsletters. RSPOS 1 favorites win something like 38% of the time where as RSPOS-8 favorites win in the low 20's (working off memory).

[kitts]

The link provided by Game Theory can answer a lot of questions. The main thing I like about these reports is their rigidity. The "POS" is indeed based on a horse's best first quarter- dirt, turf, mud, old, new, whatever. Hard to accept that concept? It was for me. Until I learned its value. And working with Jim Cramer while he was automating his theories (he had developed this idea many years earlier and made money doing it-I watched him do so)gave me some insights. Like "The S1 will not be first at first call" or "the POS4 has an advantage in 7f." As previously mentioned the learning curve is steep. If you just cannot accept the basic concepts (and many players have had trouble doing so)then this would not be for you.

Jim-
The alleged off-pace horse with the Quirin points? Look at the far right column on the Summary Report where it shows the horse's RS/POS from recent races and you can often determine the hore's tendencies today. Most horses win early on in E or EP fashion. As their skills improve they may win as P or S which changes their "RS" but that does not mean the horse won't run early. If you would like to get further with this you can email me at kitszoo@lvcm.com

[andicap]

Kitts,
I was under the impression Jim Cramer didn't bet the horses.

[so.cal.fan]

I heard an audio tape of a seminar Jim Cramer, Dick Mitchell, and our own Kitts did at Santa Anita about 5 years ago.
It was a weekend seminar on RS_POS.
Jim Cramer does bet horses.
He is also an interesting guy with some very unique ideas, some I agree with, some I don't, but they are original.
I just recently saw some of his stuff in Barry Meadow's Monthly newsletter. Looking forward to reading more from this guy.
I think RS_POS has a lot of interesting potential......although I still think some adjustments need to be made, and of course NO NUMBER system is better than good old common sense, but if it is based on common sense, it can save you making some stupid errors.......that always interests me.

[Doug]

Kitts,

Maybe you can answear this question for me.

Looking at the info pace under running styles descripition I fin a sustained runner described as a horse that was no further back than 7 lengths or positioned farther back then 7th.

My question is this "If the horse was 6th by 6 1/2 lengths in a field of 6th. would this not be considered a deep closer"?

Not a big deal, but was just curious.

thanks for any info,

Doug

[Tom]

What I like about it is two things:
1. Rules for whoe gets and E, P, S etc. No judgment, therefore it is always the same.
2. Using the worst early pace catagory forces you to leave a horse in the analysis longer - a horse who has won as a sustained hores before stays around longer than an E horse, even if that horse will probably not have to run as an S today-he may well be a front runner, but he has show the abbility to not need the lead before.

One of my favorite plays is the P1 horse, followed closely by the S1 horse (especially going sprint to route).

[so.cal.fan]

Your favorite play, Tom........
works really good in So. Cal. distance races, especially with younger horses.
Don't know if you play So. Cal. but you may want to check it out.

[Tom]

Now that I have TVG, I am going to start playing Hollywood.
Never really played a lot there, but nows a good time to start. I also have a quarter horse method from Ken Massa, so heck, bring on Los Alamitos, too.

[kitts]

Tom@HTR says it right in that part of the attraction (to me) in RS/POS is that it is very rigid in its definitions. If a horse wins as E, EP, P and SS he is forever labeled SS (the furthest "out" winning effort)and if the horse ran its fastest first quarter 10 races ago in the slop at SA at 21.2, then that horse is a 21.2 and is compared to today's horses as such (until he runs a 1/4 faster than 21.2). Take this a step further by making him the SS horse as described above and today there are 3 horses who ran faster best ever first quarter which makes our guy a SS4. I am confident that the horse will run very close to 4th at the first call, but it might be as an E since suddenly he running on the lead again. Some fun, eh?

[GameTheory]

It is not actually "forever" is it? I thought the most recent three wins were used for the running style, and the 1/4 mile rank came from the most recent 10 races...

[kitts]

Jim Cramer may have changed his rules but I doubt it. Doing it manually did not give him more than 10 running lines but now that he has the humongous database, I'll bet he sticks to his plan. The Running Style is the "furthest out" (see above for definition)ever ran by the horse in a winning effort. The first quarter number can change if the horse runs a faster one.

[GameTheory]

I am referring to the rules in the file at the RS-POS site:

http://www.rspos.com/Rs-Pos_Intro.pdf


In that document it says he uses the last 10 races for the 1/4 mile ranking and the last three wins are used for the running style. (See the first sentence below the running style table.)

[kitts]

GameTheory-

No fair-you went and read the rules.<g> I'll be the last to dispute them.

[cnollfan]

Digging up old RsPos thread. Came across RsPos last night and it looked interesting. Are there any current users of RsPos on PA? Opinions as to quality and usefulness? Thanks.

[AltonKelsey]

Considering the age of the thread and no recent talk, I'd say they all retired to Tahiti , unlisted numbers.

[so.cal.fan]

If I were betting dirt races...yes I would use a loose form if it. Probably just check current races.
There are probably better methods, but I'm not sure.
I do not believe it is useful in Turf Races.

[Tom]

It is a very structured method that gets you using consistent running style designations. I find it overall a useful method and I use parts of it to this day.
Well worth looking at and kicking the tires.

[thaskalos]

I subscribed to the Rs-Pos Reports last Friday...and Ron Tiller was kind enough to offer me a test trial of his product. I am mainly interested in Jim Cramer's speed and pace figures -- which I had heard were EXCELLENT -- but I am not entirely sold on the concept of assigning "precise" description labels to the particular running styles of the horses.

As I work my way through the Rs-Pos methodology, I wonder if these running style determinations should be based on only the WINNING races of the particular horses. I mean...if a horse has only one career victory while coming from a few lengths back, but it also has 4 wire-to-wire efforts at the same distance where this horse lost the race in a photo...should the narrow wire-to-wire losses be disregarded, and the horse be designated a PRESSER?

While the Rs-Pos methodology remains a mystery to me...I find that Cramer's speed and pace figures are indeed as good as advertised. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

I tend to modify the approach to use non winning races. When you play Tampa Bay and Penn, the last three winning races might be the whole card!

I use close up races sometimes, and if a horse changes trainers and looks to be a different animal, I make sensible adjustments.

I was wondering if you got the RS/POS materials. I have the Crammer speed figs in the HTR screens, and pace figs available in exports, so I am familiar with them - agree, very good.

Glad you are satisfied - Ron is a solid guy!

[Exotic1]

I subscribed to the Rs-Pos Reports last Friday...and Ron Tiller was kind enough to offer me a test trial of his product. I am mainly interested in Jim Cramer's speed and pace figures -- which I had heard were EXCELLENT -- but I am not entirely sold on the concept of assigning "precise" description labels to the particular running styles of the horses.

As I work my way through the Rs-Pos methodology, I wonder if these running style determinations should be based on only the WINNING races of the particular horses. I mean...if a horse has only one career victory while coming from a few lengths back, but it also has 4 wire-to-wire efforts at the same distance where this horse lost the race in a photo...should the narrow wire-to-wire losses be disregarded, and the horse be designated a PRESSER?

While the Rs-Pos methodology remains a mystery to me...I find that Cramer's speed and pace figures are indeed as good as advertised. :ThmbUp:

Great, so now your game will improve from where it stands now? I give (expletive) up.

[thaskalos]

Great, so now your game will improve from where it stands now? I give (expletive) up.

I wanted to distance myself from the DRF...and HDW is a much better alternative, IMO. And, best of all...I am even getting the hang of handicapping on a computer screen. :ThmbUp:

DRF...it was nice knowing you.

[NorCalGreg]

Considering the age of the thread and no recent talk, I'd say they all retired to Tahiti , unlisted numbers.

That guy with the bad teeth (tooth?) finally was able to find a dentist in Tahiti willing to fix his grill.

[JJMartin]

I find that Cramer's speed and pace figures are indeed as good as advertised. :ThmbUp:

I definitely agree.

[thaskalos]

I just received an unexpected phone call from HDW's Jim Cramer...who spent about an hour and a half patiently answering all the questions that he felt I might have, about the product that his company sold me. "It occurred to me that we sold you a product without thoroughly explaining to you what it's all about...that's why I am calling"...he told me, at the start of our conversation.

"Class" may be hard to define...but it's obvious when you see it. :ThmbUp:

[Psychotic Parakeet]

I am thoroughly-interested in trying this as well, but it seems like it is impossible to reach anyone via email or on the phone. Any suggestions?

[thaskalos]

I have been using the RS-POS reports for about 3 months now...and have been very satisfied with the product. But today was the first day that I could not access the Jim Cramer pace figures that come along with the package. The SPEED figures were the only ratings available with the past performances today...and it seems that this "oversight" will continue for the rest of the week.

Has anyone else here had the same problem?

[so.cal.fan]

Is Jim Cramer still alive?

[RonTiller]

Thaskalos,

We apologize for the missing Pace Numbers. We had a few simultaneous computer mishaps and we are working to restore everything back to normal. It has ended up being more work than anticipated.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[thaskalos]

Thaskalos,

We apologize for the missing Pace Numbers. We had a few simultaneous computer mishaps and we are working to restore everything back to normal. It has ended up being more work than anticipated.

Ron Tiller
HDW

Thanks for the update, Ron. I hadn't realized how much I depended on those pace figures...until they went missing. :)

[classhandicapper]

I tend to modify the approach to use non winning races. When you play Tampa Bay and Penn, the last three winning races might be the whole card!

I use close up races sometimes, and if a horse changes trainers and looks to be a different animal, I make sensible adjustments.

I was wondering if you got the RS/POS materials. I have the Crammer speed figs in the HTR screens, and pace figs available in exports, so I am familiar with them - agree, very good.

Glad you are satisfied - Ron is a solid guy!


I automated my running styles also, but I still take a quick look at the key horses to see if there are any details that might make the automated designations inaccurate.

There was one the other day.

The horse came up as a "near front runner" (one of my designations) on the report. I thought that was accurate in terms of how he was likely to run under normal circumstances, but I also knew he was entered as a rabbit and had a lot of speed in some back races. So I manually adjusted my thinking to expect him to show a lot of speed and he did.

Sometimes multiple trouble lines or wrong surfaces will also throw it off a little even though it's based on multiple races and I throw out some of the really bad ones.

[thaskalos]

Thaskalos,

We apologize for the missing Pace Numbers. We had a few simultaneous computer mishaps and we are working to restore everything back to normal. It has ended up being more work than anticipated.

Ron Tiller
HDW

The missing pace figures have been restored...and I am forever grateful. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Ron is quick to fix any problems. His definition of customer service is not like most others in this game. :rolleyes::headbanger: