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chickenhead
06-20-2009, 07:13 PM
Please -- everyone that visits this thread vote yes or no.

If you are already a member, please vote yes -- this helps give HANA an idea on how many members frequent this part of the forum regularly.

If you are not a HANA member, but would like to become one and just haven't gotten around to it, please visit here (http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0) and become one, it literally takes only a few seconds. Then you can come back to this thread and vote yes.

If you voted no, and don't plan on becoming a HANA member right now -- please let us know why not. Since you know about HANA, and you're visiting the HANA forum, it's obvious you are interested, and you probably care about the things HANA cares about. It's important for HANA to know what they're not doing well enough to get your support. If you'd rather not talk about it publicly, please feel free to send me (or any of the other HANA folks.) a pm or email.

It's important we know these kinds of things, so really folks, please don't be shy.

Thanks All

kenwoodallpromos
06-20-2009, 08:29 PM
I hope HANA is at the NorCa fairs signing up new fans!
All tracks should work to sign up HANA players as that gives a direct connection to racing, especially if they get an ID card.

Jeff P
06-20-2009, 08:39 PM
I voted yes. <G>


-jp

.

jonnielu
06-20-2009, 10:04 PM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdl

BillW
06-20-2009, 10:17 PM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdl

So you believe a broadminded un-industry like approach would to act as the shill and cover up all that is wrong with racing? Hmmm, we never thought of that! :eek:

DanG
06-20-2009, 10:24 PM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.
Interesting take;

I could be very wrong but the “H” the acronym HANA insinuates “horseplayer” as in currently participating. At least that how I view the organization and not necessarily a recruiting tool for newcomers. Not that HANA would oppose everyone and their mother getting involved, but I assume it’s not within HANA’s scope to market our sport for the industry.

An association of horseplayers / by horseplayers...for horseplayers.

Cangamble
06-20-2009, 10:46 PM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdl
We want more horseplayers, and we also know that they only way to get a significant amount of new horseplayers is for the industry to change its ways.

Your approach hasn't worked. It is equal to the track's approach.

You are stuck in 1945 Jonnielu, and to be honest, I really think you are the most out of touch poster on PA IMO.

jonnielu
06-20-2009, 11:30 PM
We want more horseplayers, and we also know that they only way to get a significant amount of new horseplayers is for the industry to change its ways.

Your approach hasn't worked. It is equal to the track's approach.

You are stuck in 1945 Jonnielu, and to be honest, I really think you are the most out of touch poster on PA IMO.

Of course, but I'm only out of touch with you and your negative sniveling. Thank God.

jdl

cj
06-20-2009, 11:52 PM
jl not a member? What a ringing endorsement for the group!

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 12:00 AM
Interesting take;

I could be very wrong but the “H” the acronym HANA insinuates “horseplayer” as in currently participating. At least that how I view the organization and not necessarily a recruiting tool for newcomers. Not that HANA would oppose everyone and their mother getting involved, but I assume it’s not within HANA’s scope to market our sport for the industry.

An association of horseplayers / by horseplayers...for horseplayers.

Oh, I'm sorry, with that in mind, I'd have other reasons for not joining. I disagree that your difficulties with the sport are caused by take out, drugs, or track surfaces. True, management is not doing as well as they could, but when has management ever done so?

Your expectations are a bit unrealistic when you expect racetrack management to be expert at marketing something that has never needed much marketing.

It is natural for them to keep their heads up their rectums for as long as people will still show up.

Your negative message may be intended only for horseplayers, but it reaches many others. A horse race is much more honest then a Blackjack game at a casino, but people don't know that.

jdl

CincyHorseplayer
06-21-2009, 12:16 AM
Jonielu I think you are part of that old generation of horseplayers that are bitter,sore losers and when your kind dies off the game will be for the better.Might sound a little harsh but it's true IMO.I don't know why some of you old cranks even bother to show up at the track.That hatred and contempt is pure posion for drawing a new audience.

Indulto
06-21-2009, 12:27 AM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdlYou must not have noticed, JL, but not even cash-strapped Pimlico is letting your preferred recruits into the infield on Preakness day any more. ;)

Frankly, I'm disappointed in you; eschewing legitimate criticism in favor of bogus charges you don't specify and/or qualify because you can't. If you actually knew of any novel ways to successfully recruit people capable of experiencing the joys of handicapping and/or wagering when sober, then you'd be too busy making money to bother posting on a message board where people have been dismissing your commentary since even before HANA got started.

Dave Schwartz
06-21-2009, 12:45 AM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

I must respectfully disagree with you JL.

Although I have yet to see any track do more than pay lip service to HANA - one exec told me that in private the group is referred to as HAHA - I recognize that the only hope on the horizon IS HANA.

Granted, they have no clout now - but let them get to 20,000 members and it could well be a different story.

Remember that AARP must have only had 100 members at some time in its history. Look at them today.


HANA is a "startup network." The first 100 members were probably the hardest. Getting to 1,000 members will be easier but still difficult. It is the jump from 1,000 to 10,000 that will tell all. If they can make that level, they will just spiral upward from there.

Imagine the "horseplayer good" that could be accomplished with 50,000 members! There won't be any HAHA-ing at that point.


HANA, I wish you will.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: Oh, and you do seem somewhat bitter.

Hajck Hillstrom
06-21-2009, 02:23 AM
.....and am thankful jonnielu isn't. No disrespect, but I just can't embrace your position.

Shocking.

BUD
06-21-2009, 02:28 AM
There is a lot in this Post--I Like HANA-I hate the Negative sh1t @ the Forums---When Your all effed up like moi--You can drowned in a sea of negativity--or live each day with your perception on the positive--Sh1t I sound like an informercial..I don't see HANA like this--But You Do--And I aint about to argue with you-----You should meet some of the cats from the Yahoo site---This one fella JC has more positive energy than Tony Robbins---There is a slow tide change--Itsa coming but its moving slow..

I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdl

Warren Henry
06-21-2009, 04:10 AM
Although I have yet to see any track do more than pay lip service to HANA - one exec told me that in private the group is referred to as HAHA -


We are new and still taking baby steps. The fact that racing execs are even aware of our existence (regardless of what they think or call us at the moment) is a very positive thing. They know we are here. They will watch our growth and will take note of our successes. If we do this right they will be FORCED to consider our desires and that will be good for the future of racing.

Dave Schwartz
06-21-2009, 04:12 AM
Warren,

I agree completely.

But we need more numbers. (I know - patience.)


Dave

kenwoodallpromos
06-21-2009, 06:39 AM
HANA at the moment is recruiting more current horseplayers than anyone else, is run only by horseplayers, and is growing fast- that is why we are getting noticed by those who CAN pressure tracks like the media, And I see HANA getting more favorable attention from the racing media than tracks themselves, connections, or regulating bodies.
IMO HANA should recruit anyone who has ever stepped foot on the track, including once a year bettors at Stockton and the other Ca racing fairs.
The general public has notions already about some of racing's negatives. IMO they should know that the people who risk their own money are trying to ensure fairness throughout racing. Trying to work with the tracks by having signup booths at the tracks will help track attendance merely by having a membership in racing (maybe special track discounts)- they can also direct them by listings included on 3X5 ID card to info advantageous to players- like PA and other sites for learning and discussion of handicapping; Turfpedia, Pedigreequery, Bloodhorse, Cindy Dulay's free PP listings, Brisnet's "At a Glances", NTRA's member discounts with advertisers, etc.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 08:39 AM
Jonielu I think you are part of that old generation of horseplayers that are bitter,sore losers and when your kind dies off the game will be for the better.Might sound a little harsh but it's true IMO.I don't know why some of you old cranks even bother to show up at the track.That hatred and contempt is pure posion for drawing a new audience.

Wow, that's exactly the image I have of HANA. What am I bitter about?

jdl

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 09:20 AM
You must not have noticed, JL, but not even cash-strapped Pimlico is letting your preferred recruits into the infield on Preakness day any more. ;)

Frankly, I'm disappointed in you; eschewing legitimate criticism in favor of bogus charges you don't specify and/or qualify because you can't. If you actually knew of any novel ways to successfully recruit people capable of experiencing the joys of handicapping and/or wagering when sober, then you'd be too busy making money to bother posting on a message board where people have been dismissing your commentary since even before HANA got started.

To me, that is a good thing. If the day comes that you are not disappointed in me, I'll have to be disappointed in myself.

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 09:27 AM
To me, that is a good thing. If the day comes that you are not disappointed in me, I'll have to be disappointed in myself.
I only have Boxcar on ignore, but you are now asking me to double that list.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 09:35 AM
I only have Boxcar on ignore, but you are now asking me to double that list.

Don't hold up on my account, I'm not here to please you, or get along with you by telling you want you want to hear.

But, you will be demonstrating the closemindedness that I was talking about.

jdl

exactaplayer
06-21-2009, 09:44 AM
I have not voted yet. I am not currently a member. I do support hana's efforts and have bet on their races/tracks. It is interesting to me that this union of players is being supported by some here.

DanG
06-21-2009, 09:58 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, with that in mind, I'd have other reasons for not joining. I disagree that your difficulties with the sport are caused by take out, drugs, or track surfaces. True, management is not doing as well as they could, but when has management ever done so?

Your expectations are a bit unrealistic when you expect racetrack management to be expert at marketing something that has never needed much marketing.

It is natural for them to keep their heads up their rectums for as long as people will still show up.

Your negative message may be intended only for horseplayers, but it reaches many others. A horse race is much more honest then a Blackjack game at a casino, but people don't know that.

jdl
Friends of Johnny Carson used to say he was so adept at arguing a position he would tell people…take whatever side of the discussion you want; and I’ll take the other.

Every discussion has at least one alternative view; but I honestly can’t follow yours. Half of your message above actually makes the case for HANA; but to each his own.

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 10:01 AM
Don't hold up on my account, I'm not here to please you, or get along with you by telling you want you want to hear.

But, you will be demonstrating the closemindedness that I was talking about.

jdl
Close mindedness over what? You haven't made a relevant point. In other words, all you are spewing is negative gibberish. That is why I am considering ignoring you.

cj's dad
06-21-2009, 10:07 AM
I have not voted yet. I am not currently a member. I do support hana's efforts and have bet on their races/tracks. It is interesting to me that this union of players is being supported by some here.

Why would any rational horseplayer NOT support HANA and their collective efforts?

Could you or anyone here identify ONE negative regarding being a HANA member?

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Friends of Johnny Carson used to say he was so adept at arguing a position he would tell people…take whatever side of the discussion you want; and I’ll take the other.

Every discussion has at least one alternative view; but I honestly can’t follow yours. Half of your message above actually makes the case for HANA; but to each his own.

I never said HANA is completely wrong in everything. The one point that management is not doing the best job that they could is quite valid. However, both parties are failing to get out the single positive message that could resurrect the sport of racing, the good news.

Everyone is equal at the racetrack, and everyone has a shot. Anyone can win.

That was the message that went out from around 1936 to around 1978.

From around 1978 to 2009, while the old message is still true, a different message has been going out that is totally inaccurate. The public responds with buying lotto tickets.

BTW the state lotto was born from the success of the numbers rackets, based on horse racing.

jdl

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 10:55 AM
Why would any rational horseplayer NOT support HANA and their collective efforts?

Could you or anyone here identify ONE negative regarding being a HANA member?

I would be endorsing all of the negative messages of HANA, when I know that, for the most part, they are inaccurate. Mainly the message that you can't win.

jdl

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 11:11 AM
I never said HANA is completely wrong in everything. The one point that management is not doing the best job that they could is quite valid. However, both parties are failing to get out the single positive message that could resurrect the sport of racing, the good news.

Everyone is equal at the racetrack, and everyone has a shot. Anyone can win.

That was the message that went out from around 1936 to around 1978.

From around 1978 to 2009, while the old message is still true, a different message has been going out that is totally inaccurate. The public responds with buying lotto tickets.

BTW the state lotto was born from the success of the numbers rackets, based on horse racing.

jdl
Average track takeouts have risen considerably since 1978 (because exotics are now available in many forms in all races, and even the win take out has risen since then). Yes, anyone could win back then, if they did their homework, and a big part of that was having the advantage of speed figures (that anyone could have done for themselves if they were sharp enough).
It was the only game in town, and there was a lot of mooch money filling the pools. Those who even used a racing form were one out of three tops.

The message today is not inaccurate. Good handicappers are pitted against great handicappers. Yes, everyone could be a great handicapper, but they are still up against people who almost all read racing forms or computer generated reports from sophisticated systems. And drugs have become more sophisticated as well. The mooch money has left the system for slots and lotteries. And price sensitive players are only playing with rebates or have left to play poker or sports betting.

The reality is that you will not get an influx in new players unless takeout is reduced drastically enough so that more winners are created.

If you "think" any of my points above are not valid, you are delusional.

rrbauer
06-21-2009, 11:30 AM
Not learning much from this thread. So far we have members; and, jonnielu pissing on members. Would someone please start a thread for jonnielu only and he can just rant to his heart's content.

exactaplayer
06-21-2009, 11:35 AM
Why would any rational horseplayer NOT support HANA and their collective efforts?

Could you or anyone here identify ONE negative regarding being a HANA member?
Like i said, I support Hana and their efforts. The only negative I can think of is the overall dislike of Unions (collective efforts) by many on this board.

andymays
06-21-2009, 11:39 AM
I voted no. HANA is at least equal to industry management in a lack of vision, while it is more narrow-minded. It does more to keep the average person away from the sport, then it does to bring them in or win them over.

You greet the newcomer with a lot of negativity about how F'd up the game is because of the ignorance of management, and beckon him/her to join you in a snivelfest that is supposed to change it.

When all they want to do is sip a cold bear, do a little gaming, and chat up members of the opposite sex. If you could help them do that for a while, they might develop an interest in the sport while they are at it. There are many ways of doing that, telling the newcomer that he can never win because the take-out is too high, and all of the horses are on dope, is not one of them.

jdl


If you are a Horseplayer that goes to the Track or plays the horses a couple of times a year then I understand. On the other hand if you're a regular Player then your ignorance is stunning.

HANA and the good People that created it put in a lot of time and effort to do so and for you to minimize and denegrate that effort is weak at best. These guys have done more to help Horseplayers in the short time they have been in existence than anyone ever. I believe the simple note that Jeff sent the CHRB about their plans to increase takeout in California prevented a massive increase (my informed opinion). Oh and by the way these guys did all this stuff with no compensation and no dues from the members. They are true believers in their cause and any fair minded person should respect that.

Just stating that HANA is a "buzz kill" for casual racegoers is not enough. Calling their positions a "snivelfest" when that is exactly what you're doing is weak as well.

I don't agree with every single one of HANA's positions and anyone who thinks they have to agree with everthing before they join is making a big mistake. I think if they could do a couple of things over they might, but as time goes on Members of HANA should contribute to the debate. Adjustements will come with time and effort.

Have the "stones" to join HANA and start a thread with your specific grievances and your specific solutions so the debate can move forward (be specific)! Sniping from the sidelines gets us nowhere.

As I said earlier, if you're a casual racegoer doing a driveby then I understand but if you have something intelligent to say and something intelligent to back it up then start a thread and be specific. Maybe you could improve HANA's positions, maybe not, but at least make an effort!

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 11:44 AM
Like i said, I support Hana and their efforts. The only negative I can think of is the overall dislike of Unions (collective efforts) by many on this board.
I don't get the correlation between unions and Hana. In order to even have a say we need numbers. If you agree with Hana's mandate, you should become a member. Every group action we do has to do with the goals of the mandate. And we are all individuals who each have a unique POV.
We are volunteers. The board has a weekly conference call, and we don't get paid a dime for it. Do union bosses make money?

Good luck trying to change the mindset of the race track execs and horsemen by just trying to debate them one on one, or writing articles that are seen by some and not by others.

The only way to fight this industry is through the strength of a group. And we need numbers. So sign up.

miesque
06-21-2009, 11:57 AM
Like i said, I support Hana and their efforts. The only negative I can think of is the overall dislike of Unions (collective efforts) by many on this board.

I can totally relate to a dislike of Unions, but if anyone feels that way I would like to point out that there is a very significant difference between the Horseplayers Association of North America and a union and anyone who knows me would know there is no way I would be on the Board of a union (no offense to anyone who happens to be in a union). We are an advocacy group, not a union. A good comparison to make is there is a massive difference between a group like AARP (which I think is a decent example) and the Teamsters, AFL-CIO, UAW, etc.

miesque
06-21-2009, 12:11 PM
I forgot to add that in regards to all of jonnielu's comments above, it takes a lot to make me speechless and those comments pretty much did the trick. All I can state is that track management, state regulators and horsemens groups all fervently wish that all horseplayers strongly believed the tenets espoused in those statements.

BillW
06-21-2009, 12:16 PM
All I can state is that track management, state regulators and horsemens groups all fervently wish that all horseplayers strongly believed the tenets espoused in those statements.

At least those who believe that horse racing is a healthy and growing industry ;) .

DeanT
06-21-2009, 12:26 PM
Johnnie,

There is a group called Thorofan, run by a couple of passionate fans. They are more along the line with what you advocate - bringing people out, cultivating the live racing base with giveaways and things like that. They have a jockey who helps on the advisory board and has had some meet and greets, etc. They have a non-confrontational stance with the tracks, as well. That group might be more to your liking and I encourage you to check them out. There is power in numbers!

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 12:43 PM
If we do this right they will be FORCED to consider our desires and that will be good for the future of racing.

Forcing your desires on others doesn't have a good record of overall success.

jdl

miesque
06-21-2009, 12:55 PM
While we are on this topic, I would just like to point out that while its impossible to satisfy everyone all of the time (which I think most people understand), constructive critiscism can be very useful and is appreciated. My one request for those critiquing HANA and making comments/suggestions is please to keep in mind the constraints we are subject to, what is actually feasibly over a short, mid and long term horizon and the fact that we are trying our best to run the organization in as professional a manner as possible.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 12:57 PM
The only way to fight this industry is through the strength of a group. And we need numbers. So sign up.

As if the better way to promote and change the industry in it's appeal to people is to beat it up real good first.

jdl

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 01:08 PM
As if the better way to promote and change the industry in it's appeal to people is to beat it up real good first.

jdl
Lying about the game doesn't work, neither does pretending what I pointed out doesn't exist either.
HANA didn't exist up until less than a year ago. Racing forums didn't exist either while racing declined from 1978 on....but racing still declined for the reasons I stated. Now we are finally trying to wake others up as to why the game is broken, hoping to get the powers that be to fix them going forward.

The industry has beaten itself up, don't shoot the messenger.

kenwoodallpromos
06-21-2009, 01:31 PM
I just checked Bing (MSN) search- HANA got positive PR from Entrepenuer Mag, Businesswire, Standardbred sites, and of course the top HANA rated tracks; The PR was almost all from the HANA Track Ratings, and included the mentions of favoring customers and lower takeout.
IMO HANA needs to rate harness and quarterhorse tracks also, and also find a way to rate tracks in terms of betting opportunities, say rating by types of bets, like betting on favorites, longshots, exotics, shippers, low level caimers, the most stakes, sprints, routes, odd distances, on fillies and on mares. On some types of bets of course fuller fields would be best, some maybe not.
The tracks can also be rated by races run closest to post time, least inquiries, short teller lines, best food and other prices, ambience, etc. Anything that would give many more tracks top ratings in some columns of the ratings. HANA can then issue several sepeate press releases, including one that mentions the each different rating catagory and the various tracks tops in those areas. Kind of like a business with 12 employees honoring a different "employee of the month" for 1 year!
Maybe a couple of more rating reports would give other tracks a chance to spread the word about us. should even consider a webpage listing all Quarterhorse, Harness, and TBred tracks in the US and Canada, listing sme kind of positives about each and giving a link to the track website.
IMO we want to get the attention and ear of the industry abd its components, to use influence instead of force. I think every track knows the problems- HANA lets them know that they are being monitored by the horseplayers as well as the general public, and exactly where the individual track stands in terms of satisfaction.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 01:39 PM
If you are a Horseplayer that goes to the Track or plays the horses a couple of times a year then I understand. On the other hand if you're a regular Player then your ignorance is stunning.

HANA and the good People that created it put in a lot of time and effort to do so and for you to minimize and denegrate that effort is weak at best. These guys have done more to help Horseplayers in the short time they have been in existence than anyone ever. I believe the simple note that Jeff sent the CHRB about their plans to increase takeout in California prevented a massive increase (my informed opinion). Oh and by the way these guys did all this stuff with no compensation and no dues from the members. They are true believers in their cause and any fair minded person should respect that.

So, they are entitled to their beliefs, but I am not entitled to mine? I throw mine out there for consideration without any demand that they are respected, or any effort to impose them. Maybe you should be calling chickenhead ignorant for asking while you are at it.

Just stating that HANA is a "buzz kill" for casual racegoers is not enough. Calling their positions a "snivelfest" when that is exactly what you're doing is weak as well.

I'm not sniveling about the casual fan being the principal object of the industry, I'm just pointing it out as a fact. Perhaps if HANA recognized that reality, instead of bemoaning the fact that horseplayers are not the principal object, you could make some progress.

As it stands now, nothing much can happen until you succeed in beating up management to the point that HANA is recognized as the veritable backbone of the industry.

I don't agree with every single one of HANA's positions and anyone who thinks they have to agree with everthing before they join is making a big mistake. I think if they could do a couple of things over they might, but as time goes on Members of HANA should contribute to the debate. Adjustements will come with time and effort.

Why would members or non-members contribute to the debate when you don't wish to participate? A differing point of view is quickly labled as ignorant, uninformed, and dismissed out of hand with no consideration.

Have the "stones" to join HANA and start a thread with your specific grievances and your specific solutions so the debate can move forward (be specific)! Sniping from the sidelines gets us nowhere.

And, now I have no stones?

As I said earlier, if you're a casual racegoer doing a driveby then I understand but if you have something intelligent to say and something intelligent to back it up then start a thread and be specific. Maybe you could improve HANA's positions, maybe not, but at least make an effort!

Just don't disagree. As I said, I believe that the message of HANA is getting out loud and clear, and driving people away 24/7.

I've been around 32 years, I've asked why you believe what you do, you have always assumed that I have no reason to believe what I do simply because it differs, not because you know anything about what I believe.

Just because you can't win, doesn't mean people can't win. I doubt you know why other people come to the racetrack in the first place.

jdl

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 01:42 PM
Lying about the game doesn't work, neither does pretending what I pointed out doesn't exist either.
HANA didn't exist up until less than a year ago. Racing forums didn't exist either while racing declined from 1978 on....but racing still declined for the reasons I stated. Now we are finally trying to wake others up as to why the game is broken, hoping to get the powers that be to fix them going forward.

The industry has beaten itself up, don't shoot the messenger.

What in particular are you calling me a liar about?

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 01:48 PM
What in particular are you calling me a liar about?
You imply that nothing has changed in regards to the game being beatable today like it was in 1978.
That is deceptive at best.
And I wasn't talking specifically about you, but about tracks if they were to use your style to advertise the product.

Any hoot. You are on ignore after this response. You are now cherry picking parts of threads to respond to. You mentioned nothing about my analogy between 1978 and now. And you are too dimwitted to spend anymore time on, as you are saying HANA is driving people away, yet you ignored my post regarding people being driven away long before HANA and racing Forums came onto the scene.

Buh bye.

andymays
06-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Just don't disagree. As I said, I believe that the message of HANA is getting out loud and clear, and driving people away 24/7.

I've been around 32 years, I've asked why you believe what you do, you have always assumed that I have no reason to believe what I do simply because it differs, not because you know anything about what I believe.

Just because you can't win, doesn't mean people can't win. I doubt you know why other people come to the racetrack in the first place.

jdl


You must not be following some of the stuff I have discussed like the Drug Issue. I have no problem being the only guy on the board sticking up for something I believe even if HANA doesn't agree with me.

As far as saying I can't win or I don't know why people come to the Track in the first place you are choosing to be ignorant again.

What I'm saying is get involved in the debate instead of doing the driveby stuff. Make an effort to pursuade people that you are right. Your response to me is a step in the right direction. Start a thread with specifics and we can all get it on and slug it out.

exactaplayer
06-21-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't get the correlation between unions and Hana. In order to even have a say we need numbers. If you agree with Hana's mandate, you should become a member. Every group action we do has to do with the goals of the mandate. And we are all individuals who each have a unique POV.
We are volunteers. The board has a weekly conference call, and we don't get paid a dime for it. Do union bosses make money?

Good luck trying to change the mindset of the race track execs and horsemen by just trying to debate them one on one, or writing articles that are seen by some and not by others.

The only way to fight this industry is through the strength of a group. And we need numbers. So sign up.
All of this could have been said by the West Virginia coal miners of the 20s and 30s or the autoworkers of the 40s. Union bosses do get paid and if Hana were to become as big/powerful as the unions of past days, the bosses would be getting paid.
You guys are splitting hairs here. This is an attempt at uniting horse players to have more say over the industry. United we stand divided we fall. uniting and united sounds kinda like Union don't you think ?

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 01:52 PM
Oh wait,
This message is hidden because jonnielu is on your ignore list (profile.php?do=editlist).

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 01:53 PM
All of this could have been said by the West Virginia coal miners of the 20s and 30s or the autoworkers of the 40s. Union bosses do get paid and if Hana were to become as big/powerful as the unions of past days, the bosses would be getting paid.
As Miesque says, we are an advocacy group not a union.

andymays
06-21-2009, 01:56 PM
Oh wait,
This message is hidden because jonnielu is on your ignore list (profile.php?do=editlist).

Just because some of us don't like what he has to say doesn't mean we should ignore him. This is a good opportunity to debate his points if he can be specific. HANA has to engage people like jonnielu that won't join for whatever reason.

As I've stated before you don't have to agree with 100% of everything HANA to join. Or am I wrong?

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 01:59 PM
Just because some of us don't like what he has to say doesn't mean we should ignore him. This is a good opportunity to debate his points if he can be specific. HANA has to engage people like jonnielu that won't join for whatever reason.

As I've stated before you don't have to agree with 100% of everything HANA to join. Or am I wrong?
The point is that he hasn't made any points. I don't agree with 100% HANA focuses on (though it is close), but Jonnielue as you say, is just a drive by shooter, and I've come close to putting him on iggy before he showed up on the HANA board.

I don't need to waste my time reading nonsense. We gave him a lot of chances here to post something of substance. He has shown zero.

Charli125
06-21-2009, 02:02 PM
Why would any rational horseplayer NOT support HANA and their collective efforts?

Could you or anyone here identify ONE negative regarding being a HANA member?

That's it in a nutshell. I think everyone would agree that the game is broken, so what do you have to lose by joining a group of like-minded(sometimes) people with the common goal of fixing it?

As for Jonnielu, I just don't see where you're coming from. Do you work for a track? Your response is exactly what I heard from my local track. If you disagreed with some of the HANA goals, I would understand. Instead you just lambaste the whole organization. That's exactly the small mindedness that created the need for HANA. I'm not sure why you bother posting on PA if you care as little as you say.

andymays
06-21-2009, 02:04 PM
The point is that he hasn't made any points. I don't agree with 100% HANA focuses on (though it is close), but Jonnielue as you say, is just a drive by shooter, and I've come close to putting him on iggy before he showed up on the HANA board.

I don't need to waste my time reading nonsense. We gave him a lot of chances here to post something of substance. He has shown zero.

I understand your personal reasons but as far as HANA goes it's a mistake to ignore people like him. With a free membership we should have no problem getting 10's of thousands of members. Maybe a better effort should be made to engage people that disagree with some but not all HANA points.

Cangamble
06-21-2009, 02:13 PM
I understand your personal reasons but as far as HANA goes it's a mistake to ignore people like him. With a free membership we should have no problem getting 10's of thousands of members. Maybe a better effort should be made to engage people that disagree with some but not all HANA points.
I have no idea what he disagrees with. Make a valid point and I can give a rebuttal. Talk trash and gibberish, and it is pointless to engage in debate.
And I tried to engage him, but he ignored all the valid points I made. Like I said. No point.

andymays
06-21-2009, 02:15 PM
I have no idea what he disagrees with. Make a valid point and I can give a rebuttal. Talk trash and gibberish, and it is pointless to engage in debate.
And I tried to engage him, but he ignored all the valid points I made. Like I said. No point.


Maybe you're right. The ball is in his court! How about an answer jonnielu?

magwell
06-21-2009, 02:51 PM
What in particular are you calling me a liar about?:lol: :lol: :lol:

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 03:15 PM
Johnnie,

There is a group called Thorofan, run by a couple of passionate fans. They are more along the line with what you advocate - bringing people out, cultivating the live racing base with giveaways and things like that. They have a jockey who helps on the advisory board and has had some meet and greets, etc. They have a non-confrontational stance with the tracks, as well. That group might be more to your liking and I encourage you to check them out. There is power in numbers!

I wanted to second this Johnnie, I think Thorofan is pretty much exactly what you're looking for, I think they match up with your views pretty closely. I don't think HANA needs to be Thorofan, there already is a Thorofan. HANA needs to be HANA. I don't know, but I imagine some people are members of both, and are glad that both exist.

rrbauer
06-21-2009, 03:35 PM
Just because some of us don't like what he has to say doesn't mean we should ignore him. This is a good opportunity to debate his points if he can be specific.


:bang: :lol: :bang: :lol: :bang: :lol: :bang: :lol:

DeanT
06-21-2009, 03:52 PM
HANA is what it is. There are no secrets, no magic answers, or magic questions. Horse racing has tried to hoodwink its customers and treated them so poorly for at least three generations that the last thing any horseplayer organization should do is the same.

If you want lower prices so horse racing can compete with other games, and bring new gamblers into the fold and grow the sport, you would be at home in HANA.

If you are tired of seeing racetrack executives that have absolutely zero knowledge of gambling in charge of this game, and want to see new blood, or the old blood expelled from this control, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing old time deals, like the data deals which bend horseplayers over the barrel, making them pay thousands of dollars a year for the privilege of giving 25% of each dollar bet to play and support racing, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing "tote delay" on your screen because of 1978 technology and no one standing up to do anything about it, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing multiple rules violations being treated like a misdemenor, while seeing treatment of said violations in innumerable ways by jurisdiction, you have a home at HANA.

If you disagree with that stance on those issues, and similar ones, you would not feel at home at HANA. It really is as simple as that. We are not everything to everyone, and would never try to be. We are here for horseplayers, and here to help grow the game of racing, promoting a sea-change in thought, and a sea-change in the way this business has operated.

The business has been run into the ground the last dozen years due to the intransigence and lack of expertise of its leadership, and it is time that it is stopped. In any other business they would be long gone by now, but in horse racing, they need to have that control pried out of their monopolistic fingers.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 03:59 PM
Maybe you're right. The ball is in his court! How about an answer jonnielu?

I can get back to you after the 11th at AP.

jdl

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 04:01 PM
I wanted to second this Johnnie, I think Thorofan is pretty much exactly what you're looking for, I think they match up with your views pretty closely. I don't think HANA needs to be Thorofan, there already is a Thorofan. HANA needs to be HANA. I don't know, but I imagine some people are members of both, and are glad that both exist.

I'm not looking for anything as far as a group to join.

jdl

DeanT
06-21-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm not looking for anything as far as a group to join.

jdl
You come on and slag HANA as not being a group you'd join and list all the reasons why you would not join it ............ then you say "I'm not looking for anything as far as a group to join."

This was about as productive of exchange as slamming a railway spike into our skulls.

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 04:27 PM
I'm not looking for anything as far as a group to join.


Obviously HANA is only for those who want to change something, and believe working collectively has a better chance of achieving that than individually. If you:

A) think racing is fine as is

or

B) Don't wish to work collectively

HANA will never be for you. There really isn't anything HANA could or would want to do about that.

I didn't realize I needed to preface my request at the beginning, but really the only useful kind of feedback for HANA is from people who don't fall into one or both of those categories.

Indulto
06-21-2009, 04:29 PM
Not learning much from this thread. So far we have members; and, jonnielu pissing on members. Would someone please start a thread for jonnielu only and he can just rant to his heart's content.Why does everything have to be your way or the highway?

Dissent can be positive, and even though JL isn't accomplishing that himself, others have been encouraged to raise interesting points, e.g., the union vs. advocacy group description which I personally would like to see taken further.

The most important thing I'm learning from this thread is how low the total "yes" response is so far relative to total PA membership, total HANA membership, and the PA petition.HANA is what it is. There are no secrets, no magic answers, or magic questions. Horse racing has tried to hoodwink its customers and treated them so poorly for at least three generations that the last thing any horseplayer organization should do is the same.

If you want lower prices so horse racing can compete with other games, and bring new gamblers into the fold and grow the sport, you would be at home in HANA.

If you are tired of seeing racetrack executives that have absolutely zero knowledge of gambling in charge of this game, and want to see new blood, or the old blood expelled from this control, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing old time deals, like the data deals which bend horseplayers over the barrel, making them pay thousands of dollars a year for the privilege of giving 25% of each dollar bet to play and support racing, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing "tote delay" on your screen because of 1978 technology and no one standing up to do anything about it, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing multiple rules violations being treated like a misdemenor, while seeing treatment of said violations in innumerable ways by jurisdiction, you have a home at HANA.

If you disagree with that stance on those issues, and similar ones, you would not feel at home at HANA. It really is as simple as that. We are not everything to everyone, and would never try to be. We are here for horseplayers, and here to help grow the game of racing, promoting a sea-change in thought, and a sea-change in the way this business has operated.

The business has been run into the ground the last dozen years due to the intransigence and lack of expertise of its leadership, and it is time that it is stopped. In any other business they would be long gone by now, but in horse racing, they need to have that control pried out of their monopolistic fingers.Dean,
This is why the advocacy group vs. union concept needs to be debated among the full HANA mebership. The "professional" approach espoused here would seem to be synonomous with "non-confrontational."

JeffP argues intelligently and persuasively that numbers should precede action. The union approach is that action creates numbers. I'm not against what HANA is about. What I don't understand is why HANA doesn't plan a weekly demonstration at some designated track instead of a "buycott!"

DeanT
06-21-2009, 04:39 PM
What I don't understand is why HANA doesn't plan a weekly demonstration at some designated track instead of a "buycott!"
Because we need members to do that. If we did that tomorrow at say 'insert track here' we would be lucky to have four people. Probably one person holding a homemade sign.

We have 1200 members, and some of the things being done (eg the procott) are to promote growth and recruit members with energy to get involved so more can be done. If we have 2400 members, such a demonstration will have 8 people instead of 4. 4800 members maybe 20-25 members. That is the goal, and we have to resist at all cost firing guns without any bullets.

miesque
06-21-2009, 04:52 PM
Anyone who thinks an honest to God real "union" for horseplayers is the right tactic is more then welcome to start one because I think its pretty evident to most that such an endeavor is an exercise in futility since the basic dynamics for a union are not present, aka there is no real mechanism to exert exceptionally strong influence on other horseplayers to march lockstep whereas its a whole different story when people physically show up for a job and everyone knows who everyone is. Even just basic peer pressure doesn't work with horseplayers.

Warren Henry
06-21-2009, 05:10 PM
Forcing your desires on others doesn't have a good record of overall success.

jdl

The customer (us) can never actually FORCE the merchant (racing industry) to change. However if we have sufficient numbers to show that their customer base would react favorably to certain changes, they might be more likely to change voluntarily.

If we have a big enough following to seriously impact handle when and where we choose, tracks and jurisdictions might begin to change their terms in order to court our business.

What we are doing is a market action done in a civil manner. We are attempting to influence change by showing that the number of players who agree with our stated positions exercise control over significant amounts of handle.

Indulto
06-21-2009, 05:14 PM
Anyone who thinks an honest to God real "union" for horseplayers is the right tactic is more then welcome to start one because I think its pretty evident to most that such an endeavor is an exercise in futility since the basic dynamics for a union are not present, aka there is no real mechanism to exert exceptionally strong influence on other horseplayers to march lockstep whereas its a whole different story when people physically show up for a job and everyone knows who everyone is. Even just basic peer pressure doesn't work with horseplayers.I agree that a workplace analogy would not be accurate here (except possibly for professional players), but other groups have demonstrated successfully against other injustices/inequities that impacted their lives as citizens, residents, etc.

Perhaps the answer is some combination of the two. Speaking out against the status quo and basking in the Lexington, KY sunlight might seem inconsistent to some, but 50 people marching in front of the gates to a major track might do more to drive home the message that something is terribly wrong to more people. Members should be willing to subsidize such demonstrations as well, though perhaps not every week.;)

miesque
06-21-2009, 05:20 PM
I agree that a workplace analogy would not be accurate here (except possibly for professional players), but other groups have demonstrated successfully against other injustices/inequities that impacted their lives as citizens, residents, etc.

Perhaps the answer is some combination of the two. Speaking out against the status quo and basking in the Lexington, KY sunlight might seem inconsistent to some, but 50 people marching in front of the gates to a major track might do more to drive home the message that something is terribly wrong to more people. Members should be willing to subsidize such demonstrations as well, though perhaps not every week.;)

I have to admit that you managed to get a chuckle out of me with the union comment because I know how much you value you anonymity and I am pretty sure thats not how unions like the Teamsters came to power. Pretty hard to break someones legs if you don't even know who they are. :D

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 05:25 PM
The most important thing I'm learning from this thread is how low the total "yes" response is so far relative to total PA membership, total HANA membership, and the PA petition.

I am tempted to take this poll show on the road to some other forums (DT, HTR, HSH, whatever other boards are out there...after getting requisite approvals of course). I'm assuming its actually higher here at PA than the poll shows, but I think it's obviously lower than I thought. And I've always assumed we have a much higher % of HANA members here than anywhere else.

I'll look at the bright side, if we haven't even come close to saturating the folks here, that means there is still a lot of "low hanging fruit", both here and at all the other boards. But realistically -- they obviously aren't so easy to get to sign up, or they would have already.

Warren Henry
06-21-2009, 05:38 PM
50 people marching in front of the gates to a major track might do more to drive home the message that something is terribly wrong to more people.

I think this is too negative and would harm our image and would lessen our impact.

Far better in my opinion to sponsor a race, pay for a blanket imprinted with a HANA message, show up in numbers for the winner's circle picture, issue a press release with the winner's circle picture and the message "We brought 200K in extra handle to this race. Who wants to be next?" Still sort of "in your face" but done in a very positive way.

If we can grow the handle numbers sufficiently and if we can guarantee enough participants for the winner's circle picture, I will donate a significant portion of the price of the first blanket (if I can be on the front row of the picture - :lol: )

I won't hold up a sign and boycott a track, but I will wear a big nametag saying Ask me about HANA, we want to improve racing" as I mingle with the crowd, handing out information to tell them how to find out more about us.

miesque
06-21-2009, 05:49 PM
I think this is too negative and would harm our image and would lessen our impact.

Far better in my opinion to sponsor a race, pay for a blanket imprinted with a HANA message, show up in numbers for the winner's circle picture, issue a press release with the winner's circle picture and the message "We brought 200K in extra handle to this race. Who wants to be next?" Still sort of "in your face" but done in a very positive way.

If we can grow the handle numbers sufficiently and if we can guarantee enough participants for the winner's circle picture, I will donate a significant portion of the price of the first blanket (if I can be on the front row of the picture - :lol: )

I won't hold up a sign and boycott a track, but I will wear a big nametag saying Ask me about HANA, we want to improve racing" as I mingle with the crowd, handing out information to tell them how to find out more about us.

That was very nicely put. I have no problem going for the jugular but have found from experience and maturity that it can be rather counterproductive at times and that it is far more productive to work in an cooperative manner as much as possible.

andymays
06-21-2009, 05:52 PM
Bottom line is that there's no reason anyone that plays the Horses shouldn't join. It's a no brainer.

It doesn't cost anything and it's easy to sign up.

It's all about exposure and simply asking Horseplayers to sign up.


By the way I know nobody cares but the coldest man on the planet (me) finally cashed in the second at Hollywood. A couple more like that and I may even make a donation!

Indulto
06-21-2009, 06:17 PM
I have to admit that you managed to get a chuckle out of me with the union comment because I know how much you value you anonymity and I am pretty sure thats not how unions like the Teamsters came to power. Pretty hard to break someones legs if you don't even know who they are. :DTouche, miesque!:lol:

Yeah, my own experience is more analogous to the civil service employees type where nobody breaks a leg .. or a sweat (with the exception of R6, of course). ;)

But hey, schedule one for Hollywood Park, and I'll be there. :jump:

P.S. WH,
I'm not talking about a BOYcott at this stage. I'm suggesting demonstrating for lower (and equal) takeout for all, and for improved small-bettor service and satisfaction. I like your idea of mingling with the crowd offering to answer questions. Maybe a T-shirt saying, "Let me tell you why takeout is too high" could work.

If there's a demonstration to join, I might just wear one saying, "Let me tell you why the $2 Pick Six Minimum discriminates against small bettors." :lol:

rrbauer
06-21-2009, 06:27 PM
Simple question:
What is HANA's plan for increasing membership?

(If HANA had a forum at its own website, I would ask the question there. And if HANA's leadership would rather, they can PM/email me with an answer. I am sworn to secrecy!)

NoDayJob
06-21-2009, 08:27 PM
How large is the present HANA membership? Are you actively soliciting new
members at your local tracks via a brochure or some sort of color copier
handout? Inquiring minds would like to know. Why limit membership to North
America?

Frankly, I've gotten along quite well, without being a member since I started
handicapping in 1947. But, there's strength in numbers--- LARGE NUMBERS.
Seems to me less than 100 people have been polled here. Not very impressive,
folks! Trouble is, not very many people go to the track any more. Most play
from home like I do. So you'll have to find a way to contact those players that
don't go to the track, if you haven't tried already. Best of luck.

miesque
06-21-2009, 09:02 PM
Currently the Horseplayers Association of North America has just under 1,200 members and we have had a pretty stable flow of new sign-ups with at least a handful each day so membership levels are not stagnant. In addition we have periodic spikes in sign-ups almost all of which directly correspond to HANA activity/progress/achievements (as small as they may seem) and that is great because it illustrates that we continue to move forward and be productive membership will continue to grow. Those current members who are interested in actively recruiting others are encouraged to contact a HANA Board of Directors member and let them know.

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 09:29 PM
Are you actively soliciting new
members at your local tracks via a brochure or some sort of color copier
handout? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Yes. HANA does have (imo) snappy looking color one page handouts that I believe they've been distributing to some members to hand out. If anyone in interested in getting some flyers for handing out at the track or OTB, please get in touch with HANA -- obviously everyone appreciates any effort you can put into it. We should probably add a downloadable .pdf version to our sites for those who can do their own printing.

One thing that's been brought up is setting up some local groups or chapters of some kind, maybe by state, I think that would be a very good way to go about helping to extend and organize the efforts of HANA and its volunteers.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 09:41 PM
You come on and slag HANA as not being a group you'd join and list all the reasons why you would not join it ............ then you say "I'm not looking for anything as far as a group to join."

This was about as productive of exchange as slamming a railway spike into our skulls.

If you don't want to know, why inquire?

jdl

BillW
06-21-2009, 09:52 PM
Currently the Horseplayers Association of North America has just under 1,200 members and we have had a pretty stable flow of new sign-ups with at least a handful each day so membership levels are not stagnant.

425 new members in the last 3 months. We're about a year old now (quite a bit less from incorporation) so that is an average of about 100 members a month from day one.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 09:54 PM
Obviously HANA is only for those who want to change something, and believe working collectively has a better chance of achieving that than individually. If you:

A) think racing is fine as is

or

B) Don't wish to work collectively

HANA will never be for you. There really isn't anything HANA could or would want to do about that.

I didn't realize I needed to preface my request at the beginning, but really the only useful kind of feedback for HANA is from people who don't fall into one or both of those categories.

I think that racing suffers greatly from a negative image. If I were to work on a solution with a group, I would rather work with people that wanted to address the problems with positive solutions.

Then, I would prefer to start by identifying the actual problems intead of making assumptions.

It is true that I work much better alone then with a group, I am not a patient person, and I tire quickly from waiting for folks to catch up.

jdl

DeanT
06-21-2009, 09:54 PM
If you don't want to know, why inquire?

jdl

If someone does not want to join a group - any group for racing - one could think a person must be insane to come to a thread asking questions on horse racing groups and post seven times.

It's like a vegetarian posting repeatedly on a thread that is asking what their favorite type of ground beef is.

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 10:00 PM
Exactaplayer, you still around?

I have not voted yet. I am not currently a member. I do support hana's efforts and have bet on their races/tracks.

You are more or less exactly who I was hoping to hear from -- someone who is sympathetic to HANAs efforts, knows who HANA is -- but hasn't signed on with HANA.

Is there anything in particular that keeps you from pulling the trigger? If after considering it there really isn't -- please come on board. We need every member, and it is very hard and/or expensive to get HANA out in front of new people -- so we really need to get the people that do know about it to sign on. If the people who know about HANA, and who agree with HANA won't do the minimum of signing on -- HANA really has very little shot of ever achieving anything. Thanks.

chickenhead
06-21-2009, 10:01 PM
I think that racing suffers greatly from a negative image. If I were to work on a solution with a group, I would rather work with people that wanted to address the problems with positive solutions.

Then, I would prefer to start by identifying the actual problems intead of making assumptions.

It is true that I work much better alone then with a group, I am not a patient person, and I tire quickly from waiting for folks to catch up.

jdl

That's great Johnnie -- best of luck with all that. I'll look forward to reaping the benefits from all your hard work.

jonnielu
06-21-2009, 11:20 PM
That's great Johnnie -- best of luck with all that. I'll look forward to reaping the benefits from all your hard work.

Well, we all we reap what we sow.

jdl

Cangamble
06-22-2009, 08:27 AM
HANA is what it is. There are no secrets, no magic answers, or magic questions. Horse racing has tried to hoodwink its customers and treated them so poorly for at least three generations that the last thing any horseplayer organization should do is the same.

If you want lower prices so horse racing can compete with other games, and bring new gamblers into the fold and grow the sport, you would be at home in HANA.

If you are tired of seeing racetrack executives that have absolutely zero knowledge of gambling in charge of this game, and want to see new blood, or the old blood expelled from this control, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing old time deals, like the data deals which bend horseplayers over the barrel, making them pay thousands of dollars a year for the privilege of giving 25% of each dollar bet to play and support racing, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing "tote delay" on your screen because of 1978 technology and no one standing up to do anything about it, you have a home at HANA.

If you are tired of seeing multiple rules violations being treated like a misdemenor, while seeing treatment of said violations in innumerable ways by jurisdiction, you have a home at HANA.

If you disagree with that stance on those issues, and similar ones, you would not feel at home at HANA. It really is as simple as that. We are not everything to everyone, and would never try to be. We are here for horseplayers, and here to help grow the game of racing, promoting a sea-change in thought, and a sea-change in the way this business has operated.

The business has been run into the ground the last dozen years due to the intransigence and lack of expertise of its leadership, and it is time that it is stopped. In any other business they would be long gone by now, but in horse racing, they need to have that control pried out of their monopolistic fingers.
I wish you would speak your mind without holding so much back:)

jonnielu
06-22-2009, 10:24 AM
That's great Johnnie -- best of luck with all that. I'll look forward to reaping the benefits from all your hard work.

Originally Posted by DeanT
HANA is what it is. There are no secrets, no magic answers, or magic questions. Horse racing has tried to hoodwink its customers and treated them so poorly for at least three generations that the last thing any horseplayer organization should do is the same.



HANA's attitude is divisive, it has built a wall around itself similar to that constructed by industry management. Not smart for either party, but I'd bet on track management to recover, because they have the horses.

Wounds kept open do not heal, differing people can not move forward until they unite.

But, what do I know.

jdl

ryesteve
06-22-2009, 10:55 AM
I work much better alone then with a group, I am not a patient person, and I tire quickly from waiting for folks to catch up
You need to put this quote on your website where you offer to hire yourself out as a mentor.

DeanT
06-22-2009, 11:03 AM
HANA's attitude is divisive, it has built a wall around itself similar to that constructed by industry management. Not smart for either party, but I'd bet on track management to recover, because they have the horses.

Wounds kept open do not heal, differing people can not move forward until they unite.

But, what do I know.

jdl

JDL,

We have had major commentators say we were "cozying up" to the tracks. We have had commenters here say similar with TVG and some tracks. We have also had comments like yours that say we are "divisive". If we have criticism from both sides like that, like we have, it tells me that we are probably doing things fairly well.

miesque
06-22-2009, 11:50 AM
HANA's attitude is divisive, it has built a wall around itself similar to that constructed by industry management.

jdl

If we really had built a wall around ourselves then the conversation in this thread and others where we have solicited advice/comments would not be occuring.

chickenhead
06-22-2009, 12:15 PM
Although I have yet to see any track do more than pay lip service to HANA - one exec told me that in private the group is referred to as HAHA - I recognize that the only hope on the horizon IS HANA.

A fitting quote for any grass roots activists:

“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” - Gandhi

turfnsport
06-22-2009, 03:44 PM
It is true that I work much better alone then with a group, I am not a patient person, and I tire quickly from waiting for folks to catch up.

jdl

What a newsflash.

Maybe you should take a llooonnngggg nap. :lol:

Charli125
06-22-2009, 04:02 PM
HANA's attitude is divisive, it has built a wall around itself similar to that constructed by industry management. Not smart for either party, but I'd bet on track management to recover, because they have the horses.

Wounds kept open do not heal, differing people can not move forward until they unite.

But, what do I know.

jdl

So you're recommending a policy of bury your head in the sand, ignore the negatives, and focus on the positive? You can't fix something if you refuse to admit that it's broken, or choose to ignore that it's broken. I've taken the liberty of drafting a letter to the racetracks based on your comments.

Dear racetrack,

I really appreciate all that you do for the game, and don't know what I would do without your excellent product. The inadequate drug testing and rule enforcement just adds excitement to the game for me. I think you should withhold 40% of the handle because of all you do for us degenerate gamblers. It won't affect how much I bet because I have to bet my rent money somewhere to get my fix.

I have one request. Would you please reduce the number of horses in each race? That would make it much easier for me to handicap.

Thanks,
JDL

Cangamble
06-22-2009, 04:15 PM
How dare consumers voice their opinions. Look at what happened with GM. People became informed that they could get better mileage at a lower cost by buying foreign made cars. If people hadn't talked so negatively about GM and so positively about non GM models, GM wouldn't be in the trouble they are in right now.

People should just bend over at keep their mouths shut. GM execs and racing execs know what is best for us.

jdl

jonnielu
06-22-2009, 04:46 PM
You need to put this quote on your website where you offer to hire yourself out as a mentor.

I was thinking of adding an annoyance fee.

jdl

cj
06-22-2009, 05:00 PM
Just another thread of many jonnielu turns into a "look how great I am" adventure.

Indulto
06-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by jonnielu
HANA's attitude is divisive, it has built a wall around itself similar to that constructed by industry management.

jdlIf we really had built a wall around ourselves then the conversation in this thread and others where we have solicited advice/comments would not be occuring.As an advocacy for increasing horseplayer satisfaction through greater recognition and better treatment by the industry, HANA must be divisive to some extent as Dean eloquently explained.

If indeed there is a wall, the proposed HANA private board would go a long way towards eliminating it. While it is true that HANA team members occasionally solicit comments, feedback on its effect has not always been shared.

What is HANA? How does it appear to the outside world? Correct me if I am mistaken, but so far HANA appears to be a team of 10 or so active volunteers, with an advisory board of 4 well-known horseplayer-authors, a cheer-leading squad of 20 or so PA posters, and an audience of over 1100, some of whom may be pursuing ancillary efforts like the "buycotts." The membership as a whole knows nothing about the advisory boards' recommendations, and very few specifics of the team's long-term and short-term planning.

Will the answer to rrbauer's question on how HANA plans to grow its membership indeed be answered privately, or will it be shared with the entire membership? My own question is, "What are the items that have been assigned higher priority over the establishment of a private forum that would enable greater communication between the team and the general membership, and thus involve the latter to a greater extent?"

The HANA team appears to be comprised of very capable people, who certainly deserve credit for what they've accomplished so far. IMO given the novel nature of its mission, greater transparency is required to more fully engage its members to take advantage of their abilities and experience as well; and to fully utilize them as recruiters which would seem to be another high priority item.

jonnielu
06-22-2009, 05:33 PM
JDL,

We have had major commentators say we were "cozying up" to the tracks. We have had commenters here say similar with TVG and some tracks. We have also had comments like yours that say we are "divisive". If we have criticism from both sides like that, like we have, it tells me that we are probably doing things fairly well.

I just don't see how you are going to bring management and horsemen to your table for an earnest meeting of the minds, after you have run through the neighborhood hollering about what idiot, ripoff artist, con men, elitest, horse doping, money grubbing, signal-hog bastards they are.

You want recognition, and for your input to be respected and acted upon, but, the way you have set the table, the racing industry can't easily do that without confessing to the list above.

jdl

andymays
06-22-2009, 05:44 PM
I just don't see how you are going to bring management and horsemen to your table for an earnest meeting of the minds, after you have run through the neighborhood hollering about what idiot, ripoff artist, con men, elitest, horse doping, money grubbing, signal-hog bastards they are.

You want recognition, and for your input to be respected and acted upon, but, the way you have set the table, the racing industry can't easily do that without confessing to the list above.

jdl


How about joining and handling the Public Relations? :D

jonnielu
06-22-2009, 05:47 PM
What a newsflash.

Maybe you should take a llooonnngggg nap. :lol:

Oh hey,

Sorry about denying your follow request for TrackSideEye Saturday. It was a mis-click. I wanted you to get Saturday.

jdl

jonnielu
06-22-2009, 05:56 PM
Just another thread of many jonnielu turns into a "look how great I am" adventure.

Sometimes you actually come up with some funny stuff. :lol:

DeanT
06-22-2009, 05:57 PM
I just don't see how you are going to bring management and horsemen to your table for an earnest meeting of the minds, after you have run through the neighborhood hollering about what idiot, ripoff artist, con men, elitest, horse doping, money grubbing, signal-hog bastards they are.

This shows that you have not followed us, and since you probably never will it does not deserve a response.

For those who do not follow us and would like us to address those issues, it is quite simple.

We speak out where we think the game is broken. One area is signal availablility, or as John eloquently puts it "signal hogging". We would like signals available everywhere, in an open way, at a fair price, so horseman, horseplayers and tracks can all make a fair share, and invest in the future of racing. we lobbied TVG on this, and have lobbied others. We are extremely happy that TVG has opened up signals. We are also happy that the signal fights seem to be slowly becoming a thing of the past. We have a long way to go, however.

Doping is a tough one, but we are calling (like many people in racing, including Dr. Arthur and many prominent horseman) for uniform rules. We would also, like many in the business, like to see swifter penalities and more equitable penalties for those who use performace enhancing substances, who endanger the state of racing, and endanger the animals themselves (in some instances).

Money grubbing and elitist? I don't know if you have a poiint there Johnnie, but we would like to see better takeouts, or rebates available to players, as empirical evidence has shown this can grow the sport.

Lastly,

I just don't see how you are going to bring management and horsemen to your table for an earnest meeting of the minds

We have met with the Keeneland board of directors.

One board member has spoken in front of the Racing Commissioners panel on wagering integrity. He is also working closely with Kentucky racing on various issues as a player representative.

One board member presented on two topics at a recent wagering conference: the future of wagering and lower takeouts and new forms of betting.

We have met with the Managing Director of Betfair.

We have a meeting scheduled to hopefully commence with TVG (we can not find a good time to meet scheduling wise).

We tentatively will be meeting with Woodbine Entertainment.

A board member has met and spoken to the President of Youbet regarding signals.

A board member has met with the TOC regarding rebates, lower takeout and signals.

A board member has met with the President of Hollywood Park.

We have been represented at the CHRB meetings regarding takeout hikes and rebates (they wanted to raise takeout in March, and we hope our letters made a difference).

There are probably a couple of others I am forgetting. However, for an organization that has only been around since September 23rd 2008, I am proud of that list, and proud that we have been invited to the table on behalf of our fellow horseplayers. We are equally proud of the 1200 people who put their faith in us to achieve and represent them at the above meetings, and we hope that we can represent them more and more with racing, in a proactive way in 2009 and beyond.

PaceAdvantage
06-22-2009, 06:05 PM
jonnielu has had more than his fair share of say in this thread. Any more replies from him here will be deleted.

Nobody should be able to hijack a thread like this, and I apologize for not jumping in here much sooner.

BillW
06-22-2009, 06:10 PM
There are probably a couple of others I am forgetting.

3 (4 with the phone conference?) meetings (that I remember) with Equibase upper Management discussing improvements in data made available to horseplayers.

DeanT
06-22-2009, 06:12 PM
3 (4 with the phone conference?) meetings (that I remember) with Equibase upper Management discussing improvements in data made available to horseplayers.
My bad :bang:

Another one: Mike Tanner, President of the US Trotting Association has responded to our last post on bettors being invited to the table and promised that a HANA Rep will be invited to their next conference.

rrbauer
06-22-2009, 09:34 PM
Let me suggest a monthly or quarterly newsletter to members. It can be posted at the HANA website but there needs to be regular communicaton from "management" to "members" as to what's going on and what's in the hopper for future consideration.

DeanT
06-22-2009, 11:18 PM
We've tried a pile of ways to get people involved Rich, but so few take us up on it. I think we have had four guests for the meetings since we started them. We get good feedback via email, and we write about that at times, but really that is about it.

As for the guys who have asked to help, and have offered suggestions, they are discussed at every meeting. Donnie, Kendalwood, Andy G, tryingtowin and a few others have some good ideas that come down the pipe and are invited to discuss them at meetings anytime. The problem usually ends up being time. No one has any time, and we have so much to do. I have a betfair interview from March I have not written up yet. Eeek.

andymays
06-22-2009, 11:24 PM
You gotta go to a friendly Track in person and sign people up while you're there. If the Track is friendly they will let the people know you're there on their feed.


Has anyone asked TVG or HRTV if they will let you or Jeff go on and ask people to sign up?

DeanT
06-22-2009, 11:32 PM
Jeff did a dandy job Andy on TVG. Next up is Bill W in a tutu with a HANA hat :)

Thanks for your suggestions via email etc, btw. We are getting more and mroe ideas via email that we put into motion one way or another.

DeanT
06-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Then we get the mystery helpers. Here is a comment on the blog. I have no idea who did this, but thanks :)

HANA

Got you covered...Just made 200 copies of your brochure. They were be strategically placed for all to see (and take)at the conference in Saratoga.....The sad part of this is that the host hotel--Gideon Putnam - is run by Delaware North. They run the local Harness Racino and are bidding for the VLT's at Aqueduct. So short sighted.

BillW
06-22-2009, 11:41 PM
Jeff did a dandy job Andy on TVG. Next up is Bill W in a tutu with a HANA hat :)



We had about 50 sign-ups that afternoon. The tutu idea would result in unprecedented cancellations :eek: .

miesque
06-22-2009, 11:43 PM
Then we get the mystery helpers. Here is a comment on the blog. I have no idea who did this, but thanks :)

Actually from the pin sales I have a pretty good idea who that is and I will send a thank you. ;)

rrbauer
06-23-2009, 11:57 AM
We've tried a pile of ways to get people involved Rich, but so few take us up on it. I think we have had four guests for the meetings since we started them. We get good feedback via email, and we write about that at times, but really that is about it.

As for the guys who have asked to help, and have offered suggestions, they are discussed at every meeting. Donnie, Kendalwood, Andy G, tryingtowin and a few others have some good ideas that come down the pipe and are invited to discuss them at meetings anytime. The problem usually ends up being time. No one has any time, and we have so much to do. I have a betfair interview from March I have not written up yet. Eeek.

Meetings? How would one know that you're having meetings and that members are invited to put in their two-cents worth? Do these meetings have agendas? Maybe I missed the meetings' announcement and my apologies if that's the case but frankly I think the communication to the membership sucks.

miesque
06-23-2009, 12:16 PM
Meetings? How would one know that you're having meetings and that members are invited to put in their two-cents worth? Do these meetings have agendas? Maybe I missed the meetings' announcement and my apologies if that's the case but frankly I think the communication to the membership sucks.

Just to clarify Dean's comment, sometimes when a member sends an e-mail with an issue or suggestion that merits further discussion they are invited to discuss the issue during the weekly board of director's meeting which occurs via conference call. Other then the open invitation for members to join us at Keeneland we have not had a traditional, physical member meeting.

Charli125
06-23-2009, 12:42 PM
Easier said than done in my experience. I was told NO very clearly by Emerald Downs.

And I'm quitting if Bill gets on TVG with a tutu on!

You gotta go to a friendly Track in person and sign people up while you're there. If the Track is friendly they will let the people know you're there on their feed.


Has anyone asked TVG or HRTV if they will let you or Jeff go on and ask people to sign up?

DeanT
06-23-2009, 01:12 PM
Meetings? How would one know that you're having meetings and that members are invited to put in their two-cents worth? Do these meetings have agendas? Maybe I missed the meetings' announcement and my apologies if that's the case but frankly I think the communication to the membership sucks.

We have always given the option to anyone to contact us via email. We also solicit feedback on the blog which we get. We also ask for involvement in the quarterly newsletter that we write up and send out, and we ask for any proposals that can be discussed face to face (or in the case of the weekly meetings, ear to ear). We have had several people join us with their ideas at meetings and everyone is invited should they want to add an agenda item that is doable. The next newsletter should be out soon.

Ross took the ball and ran with it with the handletalks yahoo group, which was great. They are all batting around what tracks to hit, and which direction to go next. There are 80 or so active HANA members there who chat about and are interested in that idea.

We have set up a member feedback form on the sign ups page. When people ask to help, or have suggestions we contact them directly via email.

We have set up a Askhana page where members can give feedback, offer suggestions and ask questions. We will address everything there. We have an offer from someone to run that, as we are all full, but he has had some personal issues to take care of and it has not gotten off the ground yet. The beta page is here (http://askusathana.blogspot.com/). Dont send an email there yet, as no one will be reading them. We get too many to handle already in our regular email.

In additon to that Bill has set up an email address for each of us with HANAweb, and we are getting trickles of emails there.

We have a facebook page where members can post on our wall any questions, ideas or comments.

The above things are generally done in business with CRM software as you know, with dedicated reps. Of course we can not afford that, nor do we have staff to man them. It is all done by the core group with free or near free tools because we do not have a budget, nor the manpower to do it any other way. We are actively looking for volunteers to help us achieve many things, not the least of which is member feedback and CRM.

rokitman
06-23-2009, 01:43 PM
HANA management can't count on action from its members, or "customers," to succeed any more than Sears management can count on their customers' actions to succeed other than them making a buy at Sears/don't buy at Sears type decision.

It is uncommon that a person can engage and lead a group of many disparate people. It is unlikely that the current persons at the top of the HANA pyramid are that type (no offense intended- just being realistic-I am rooting for you all). It is common in war that the generals that were at the top at the beginning of the war are replaced when the realities of that war set in. I am not saying that anybody should be replaced in the HANA management, although that ultimately will be part of a recipe for success. But I am saying that HANA management will have to now rise to the occasion, or it is over before it even really started. I know you're not currently being paid but that is the job you signed up for.

In my opinion, this is a war, of sorts. It is primarily about money and nobody is going to give theirs up just to be polite. Powder-puff tactics are not going to work any more than they would on Wall Street. HANA management is going to have to get their hands dirty. Get some mud on their face. And draw some blood.

If you really want to help players and tracks simultaneously, then stop the "Pool Parties" and direct the membership to "strike" a track like Indiana Downs who is profiting by bloodsucking both slots players and nearby tracks and, ultimately, ending this game. If you do not have the stomach for that, then it is time to apply an age-old adage; Lead, follow, or get out of the way.


Chris

chickenhead
06-23-2009, 02:06 PM
If you really want to help players and tracks simultaneously, then stop the "Pool Parties" and direct the membership to "strike" a track like Indiana Downs who is profiting by bloodsucking both slots players and nearby tracks and, ultimately, ending this game. If you do not have the stomach for that, then it is time to apply an age-old adage; Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

How much handle do you believe HANA members put through Indiana Downs currently? What are the simulcast $'s bet there, I have no idea. And then you figure, what percentage of those simulcast $s is HANA likely, with the bully pulpit they have currently, going to be able to influence? I'm guessing we could maybe -- on the high end -- take $100-$200 a night out of their pools on average. Since that would all be simulcast, and I assume that the track gets, what, 2 or 3% of that -- we could cost them around $5 a night.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily against it -- it might be a worthy token effort, a morally correct stance to take -- then again it might make HANA look like toothless fools, and drive away some of our current members. But it would be a token either way.

miesque
06-23-2009, 03:05 PM
How much handle do you believe HANA members put through Indiana Downs currently? What are the simulcast $'s bet there, I have no idea. And then you figure, what percentage of those simulcast $s is HANA likely, with the bully pulpit they have currently, going to be able to influence? I'm guessing we could maybe -- on the high end -- take $100-$200 a night out of their pools on average. Since that would all be simulcast, and I assume that the track gets, what, 2 or 3% of that -- we could cost them around $5 a night.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily against it -- it might be a worthy token effort, a morally correct stance to take -- then again it might make HANA look like toothless fools, and drive away some of our current members. But it would be a token either way.

Indiana Downs is a great example because I don't bet Indiana Downs, in fact I never have. So the net impact of me supporting such a "strike" with the most fervor possible is nada, zip, zero. The flip side is this is there have been three tracks so far in the Pool Party which I normally would not have played but did, so there was actually an action which took place which would not have previous taken place. In addition, one of the reasons behind the weekly Pool Party is exactly because there is so much negativity right now, its pervasive throughout the industry. You can accomplish a lot more through positive energy then with negative energy.

Its pretty easy to have militant ideas and throw them out on message boards, but if you look carefully at the mechanics of what is necessary to have those ideas implemented in a manner that will actually be successful, you will notice the herd enforcement mechanism is not there making it extremely difficult to be successful.

price
06-23-2009, 03:37 PM
Why would any rational horseplayer NOT support HANA and their collective efforts?

Could you or anyone here identify ONE negative regarding being a HANA member?

Their support of TVG ruins it for me. The exclusivity of the TV signal in regards to RTN or as some call it WHALE TV is my number one issue. The fact that TVG still uses exclusivity against RTN to this day makes me sick. Clearly this is not an issue for lots of players, but for me it's number one and I cannot support a group that embraces the TVG model.

chickenhead
06-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Right. I understand why people want to boycott -- I'm as militant as anyone. I also assume that all the people that speak up about wanting to boycott whomever -- are already boycotting them personally.

I have no idea what comes out of the Pool Parties if anything, but I can see that logically good things could come out of it. Considering where HANA is right now, if we can put $100K into a tracks pools for the same time and effort as can take $100, or $1,000 out of a tracks pools -- net net, I think the $100K reward is better. Not the least of which is because like miesque says, everyone can contribute. For our small numbers, that is pretty important.

When we're bigger, and when we have a much better organization, we will actually have a stick that we could use. But we're not there -- so our focus needs to be on not trying to use a stick we don't have -- but on getting bigger, and getting better organized.

miesque
06-23-2009, 03:48 PM
Right. I understand why people want to boycott -- I'm as militant as anyone. I also assume that all the people that speak up about wanting to boycott whomever -- are already boycotting them personally.



Bingo, its highly doubtful that those who are yelling and screaming bloody murder about a particular track are playing that track at all. You can't double or triple boycott something whereas on the flip side you can double or triple a wager, series of wagers, etc. Its the same as all of those who are horseplayers who are disgusted with all thats wrong in racing, they have already either reduced their play or left the game.

DeanT
06-23-2009, 05:03 PM
I cannot support a group that embraces the TVG model.

Where have we ever supported the TVG model? Jeff Platt spent 4 hours on the phone lobbying for open signal access in November regarding such models, and we issued a press release regarding it and did an interview with Bloodhorse, as well.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/11/press-release-executives-hear.html

I don't know which horseplayer group that supports the exclusivity model, but I can assure you of one thing: That group is not HANA.

DeanT
06-23-2009, 05:17 PM
We have always given the option to anyone to contact us via email. We also solicit feedback on the blog which we get. We also ask for involvement in the quarterly newsletter that we write up and send out, and we ask for any proposals that can be discussed face to face (or in the case of the weekly meetings, ear to ear). We have had several people join us with their ideas at meetings and everyone is invited should they want to add an agenda item that is doable. The next newsletter should be out soon.

Ross took the ball and ran with it with the handletalks yahoo group, which was great. They are all batting around what tracks to hit, and which direction to go next. There are 80 or so active HANA members there who chat about and are interested in that idea.

We have set up a member feedback form on the sign ups page. When people ask to help, or have suggestions we contact them directly via email.

We have set up a Askhana page where members can give feedback, offer suggestions and ask questions. We will address everything there. We have an offer from someone to run that, as we are all full, but he has had some personal issues to take care of and it has not gotten off the ground yet. The beta page is here (http://askusathana.blogspot.com/). Dont send an email there yet, as no one will be reading them. We get too many to handle already in our regular email.

In additon to that Bill has set up an email address for each of us with HANAweb, and we are getting trickles of emails there.

We have a facebook page where members can post on our wall any questions, ideas or comments.

The above things are generally done in business with CRM software as you know, with dedicated reps. Of course we can not afford that, nor do we have staff to man them. It is all done by the core group with free or near free tools because we do not have a budget, nor the manpower to do it any other way. We are actively looking for volunteers to help us achieve many things, not the least of which is member feedback and CRM.

Oh I almost forgot (just for Theresia), another place that people can get ahold of us for feedback is at Twitter. I forgot about that. Theresia loves the Twitter.

Twitter: http://twitter.com/HplayersAssnNA

And I forgot to put Facebook up in that post just in case people want to join:

Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Horseplayers-Association-of-North-America/44663680571

We have a youtube page as well, but since we only have two videos, no one goes there to post messages.

price
06-23-2009, 05:21 PM
Where have we ever supported the TVG model? Jeff Platt spent 4 hours on the phone lobbying for open signal access in November regarding such models, and we issued a press release regarding it and did an interview with Bloodhorse, as well.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/11/press-release-executives-hear.html

I don't know which horseplayer group that supports the exclusivity model, but I can assure you of one thing: That group is not HANA.

You are talking about wagering. I am talking about the video signal. HANA members have told me to dump RTN and use the net. Not for me. HANA supports video signal exclusivity. I wouldnt mind if HANA was ok with exclusivity in regards to HRTV and TVG, I get that. RTN is a separate issue and should be handled the way the NJ horsemen did. They have a TVG "exclusive" yet I can still watch NJ signals on RTN.

DeanT
06-23-2009, 05:30 PM
HANA members have told me to dump RTN and use the net. Not for me. HANA supports video signal exclusivity.

Because a member, or whomever, supports something does not mean everyone does, nor does it mean it is policy. I understand the fractured state of the business, and all the different models. I understand some networks have to make money and so on, but in a perfect world, anyone who wants a signal should be able to get it.

I think the rest of the board is with me on that, and most members.

As for not liking one thing, even if this was the case (once again we DO NOT support video signal exclusivity) there are a lot of people that might not agree with everything we do, or dont do. But there is a huge overlap. It is important to remember that, imo.

I got this nice lil email from someone about this very issue. I could not have said it better. It is hard to please everyone, but we listen, and we try our best to stay true to the major horseplayer priciples in our mission statement.

I think everything you guys have done has been done with good intentions and way more hard work than anyone knows. This is just my opinion and you can do with it what you want.

A point needs to be made to Horseplayers that might disagree with one or two things that they don't like.

For example I hate synthetic surfaces so when you guys picked keenland as the top track I was very dissapointed and I know many others were as well. That doesn't mean I don't support most of the other things HANA does.

HANA needs to make it clear that it is a work in progress and anyone with new ideas or anyone that wants to change something can make their case and HANA will listen.

I think the Track ratings did more to piss people off than anything and maybe the ratings format and the way it's presented to the public should be changed a little.

Anyway I support HANA and think you guys have done something outstanding so keep up the good fight!

miesque
06-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Oh I almost forgot (just for Theresia), another place that people can get ahold of us for feedback is at Twitter. I forgot about that. Theresia loves the Twitter.

Twitter: http://twitter.com/HplayersAssnNA



:p

Hey, I did finally break down and set up a Facebook account about two weeks ago. Thats enough edginess to keep me for sometime. :D

BillW
06-23-2009, 05:35 PM
:p

Hey, I did finally break down and set up a Facebook account about two weeks ago. Thats enough edginess to keep me for sometime. :D

Baby steps, baby steps! :p

price
06-23-2009, 06:18 PM
Because a member, or whomever, supports something does not mean everyone does, nor does it mean it is policy. I understand the fractured state of the business, and all the different models. I understand some networks have to make money and so on, but in a perfect world, anyone who wants a signal should be able to get it.

I think the rest of the board is with me on that, and most members.

As for not liking one thing, even if this was the case (once again we DO NOT support video signal exclusivity) there are a lot of people that might not agree with everything we do, or dont do. But there is a huge overlap. It is important to remember that, imo.

I got this nice lil email from someone about this very issue. I could not have said it better. It is hard to please everyone, but we listen, and we try our best to stay true to the major horseplayer priciples in our mission statement.

It's my number one issue, not willing to compromise on number one. I was in the WAR ROOM back at the beginning (I posted my video exclusivity concerns) and nobody cared about that issue which is fine, just don't expect me to join your group.

I voted in the poll and commented as to why I voted no.

chickenhead
06-23-2009, 06:37 PM
It's my number one issue, not willing to compromise on number one. I was in the WAR ROOM back at the beginning (I posted my video exclusivity concerns) and nobody cared about that issue which is fine, just don't expect me to join your group.

And it probably remains that hardly any HANA members have that particular point as numero uno on their list. But the fact is, the official HANA plank is to favor non-exclusivity.

If you don't want to join HANA, that's fine -- just quit lying about who and what HANA supports, please.

rrbauer
06-23-2009, 06:47 PM
I had to be one of the first 20 or 30 people to sign up (via email) for HANA membership. That was last summer. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A QUARTERLY NEWSLETTER. NEVER.

I am learning more about HANA (unfortunately) from this thread than I have ever learned about HANA from communications from the leadership to the membership. Is the leadership qualified to lead an organization? Any organization?

In the absence of some quid pro quo from the track that's getting our money, I think this pool party nonsense is just that: NONSENSE. We do it so we can look at the handle figures and say, "Lookie there. We caused the handle to go up on that race"? For example, has Monmouth Park rewarded HANA by putting a link to HANA's website on their website? They sure as hell should do something for the publicity and revenue they've received from HANA the past few weeks.

We just can't sit back and play the same old tune: Wait until the membership grows (How the hell are you going to do that?). We're not big enough yet (What's "big enough"?) Everybody's plate is full (If you would communicate what you need help with, maybe someone would step up). We're running this mainly from our (officers) money (How much money have you asked for? Hell I've offered to pay for the web site (no takers). Pay for money to advertise on other boards (no takers). Fund the cash prizes for a contest as part of a membership drive (no takers).

You can only play the "we're new" card so long. I view whatever "stands" that HANA takes to try and change this industry as "last stands". Horseplayers are dying (or going broke) every day and most aren't being replaced. HANA caught a break with the Keeneland experience. That's behind us. That cow has been milked. Let's go forward. Let's do it right. But, let's not waver from principle and let's do what it takes to show this industry that we mean business and that we deserve some standing in return for the money that we bring to the table.

DeanT
06-23-2009, 06:51 PM
I had to be one of the first 20 or 30 people to sign up (via email) for HANA membership. That was last summer. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A QUARTERLY NEWSLETTER. NEVER.



Rich,

Check your spam filter as I suspect it is the culprit. You are on the list and the newsletter is sent to all members on the list.

We place them on the blog as well, should members miss them. There is a link to the previous newsletters on the side of the page, just scroll down a bit.

DeanT
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
I am learning more about HANA (unfortunately) from this thread than I have ever learned about HANA from communications from the leadership to the membership. Is the leadership qualified to lead an organization? Any organization?



I have given you a list of member feedback items where people can be in touch with us and offer opinion, including email, social media, blogging, web forms, newsletters and more, addressing your concerns that we suck.

I am sorry if your spam filter missed our newsletters or if you are having a bad day, but please find a new spam filter instead of taking it out on me. I work very hard and continue to do so at the items I have listed to keep membership informed and engaged.

D

miesque
06-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Just a comment since one thing we are being criticized on this afternoon is recruitment, between the start of yesterday and about 2 minutes ago we had 22 new members sign up.

cj's dad
06-23-2009, 07:11 PM
Has anyone form HANA considered a standardized flyer which could be printed out by members and handed out at local tracks on a Saturday afternoon. I would be willing to do so at Laurel Park when they re-open.

miesque
06-23-2009, 07:16 PM
Has anyone form HANA considered a standardized flyer which could be printed out by members and handed out at local tracks on a Saturday afternoon. I would be willing to do so at Laurel Park when they re-open.

We have a snazzy half page color flyer and I would be more then happy to send you a file for printing and distribution if you shoot me a PM with your e-mail address. :)

andymays
06-23-2009, 07:16 PM
Dean you may want to contact this guy from www.equidaily.com

He sent me this after I sent him something the other day.


While I appreciate the concept of HANA I'm really not familiar enough with what they are doing or what their ultimate goals are to step in and defend them. And I'm not sure sending folks who don't know about HANA to a forum thread that is critical of the group does much to help them.

The best way to answer those critics is to do just what you've done -- answer them logically in that forum. And, hopefully, other HANA members will do the same.

In the meantime, at Equidaily, we'll gladly link to anything pertinent and help to expose HANA and its concept to a wider audience.

Thanks for reading Equidaily.com

Seth Merrow admin@equidaily.com

chickenhead
06-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Everybody's plate is full (If you would communicate what you need help with, maybe someone would step up). We're running this mainly from our (officers) money (How much money have you asked for? Hell I've offered to pay for the web site (no takers). Pay for money to advertise on other boards (no takers). Fund the cash prizes for a contest as part of a membership drive (no takers).

From my own perspective -- HANA needs help with everything. The website -- time to design it, define what HANA wants, manage the process, find the people to do the work, manage them to make sure they are doing what you want etc. Advertising -- time to seek out the publishers, get quotes, design the ads, track conversions, see where the ads are performing well and not, manage the process. Contests? Great idea -- time to design a contest, figure out how to implement it, spend the time promoting it all ove the web. These aren't small things, HANA needs to find people that are willing to commit significant amounts of time to carrying each small thing through. Responsible people with good judgement that can manage things like this.

I think those are all good ideas, I think there are boatloads of good ideas -- anyone want to sign up and take some of these projects through to fruition?

chickenhead
06-24-2009, 11:58 PM
Anyone want to sign up and take some of these projects through to fruition?

Hey, were'd everybody go? :confused:

What'd I say, what'd I say? :confused:

I've never seen a room empty so fast!

Warren Henry
06-25-2009, 04:33 PM
Hey, were'd everybody go? :confused:

What'd I say, what'd I say? :confused:

I've never seen a room empty so fast!

Wow, Chick, that was a read thread killer.

I have some ideas on how to get more publicity for our pool parties. I would be happy to take an active part in promoting/organizing these activities. However, my ideas will not work until we have sufficient numbers to insure a decent physical turnout at the actual track of the parties. Also, like everyone else, I am juggling too many plates at the moment. After the first of the year, I will actually make my suggestions and will officially volunteer to take a leadership role in making it happen (obviously, depending on approval of the board/membership).

jonnielu
06-29-2009, 08:49 AM
Hey, were'd everybody go? :confused:

What'd I say, what'd I say? :confused:

I've never seen a room empty so fast!

Perhaps HANA could make some headway on these tasks if it had a few dollars to spend on furthering all the causes it finds worthy.

Would HANA consider any fundraising moves other then straight donations?

jdl

alydar
06-29-2009, 09:54 PM
From my own perspective -- HANA needs help with everything. The website -- time to design it, define what HANA wants, manage the process, find the people to do the work, manage them to make sure they are doing what you want etc. Advertising -- time to seek out the publishers, get quotes, design the ads, track conversions, see where the ads are performing well and not, manage the process. Contests? Great idea -- time to design a contest, figure out how to implement it, spend the time promoting it all ove the web. These aren't small things, HANA needs to find people that are willing to commit significant amounts of time to carrying each small thing through. Responsible people with good judgement that can manage things like this.

I think those are all good ideas, I think there are boatloads of good ideas -- anyone want to sign up and take some of these projects through to fruition?

I offered to help in any way required on the HANA website and never have heard a thing. That was a month ago. As far as the buycotts, I think that they have had limited or no real impact and new ideas should be considered.

DeanT
06-30-2009, 07:11 PM
Thanks for that email Aly. I swore I emailed back but I guess not. My apologies. I have been busy lately and the HANA work gets me bogged down.

Regardless nothing in the immediate pipeline right now, but we are working on an ADW rating system which several of the guys have offered to be a part of in some way. Any interest on your part in that type of project?

I think Theresia has been devising some sort of committee on her end to get folks involved if they would like, however four or five other things came up and that got placed on the backburner a couple of weeks ago I think. She might be able to address that soon, and I know she has been in contact with several of the people that have asked to get involved.

The funny thing for us? It is hard to know who is serious and who is not. I have emailed about 40 folks back who said they were available for meetings or to help. Only two got back to me so far.

Anyway, thanks for the mail. Please mail back if anything interests you, or you have an idea you would like to discuss and/or run with.

D

jonnielu
06-30-2009, 08:08 PM
Thanks for that email Aly. I swore I emailed back but I guess not. My apologies. I have been busy lately and the HANA work gets me bogged down.

Regardless nothing in the immediate pipeline right now, but we are working on an ADW rating system which several of the guys have offered to be a part of in some way. Any interest on your part in that type of project?

I think Theresia has been devising some sort of committee on her end to get folks involved if they would like, however four or five other things came up and that got placed on the backburner a couple of weeks ago I think. She might be able to address that soon, and I know she has been in contact with several of the people that have asked to get involved.

The funny thing for us? It is hard to know who is serious and who is not. I have emailed about 40 folks back who said they were available for meetings or to help. Only two got back to me so far.

Anyway, thanks for the mail. Please mail back if anything interests you, or you have an idea you would like to discuss and/or run with.

D

There might be some people wondering if HANA is serious. People have often told me that they can't tell when I'm serious, or when I'm kidding, then they tell me that I am too serious, all of the time.

I think you should do some fundraising to get more people involved. The door is wide open for HANA to demonstrate all complaints and all remedies.

jdl

Charli125
06-30-2009, 09:08 PM
There might be some people wondering if HANA is serious. People have often told me that they can't tell when I'm serious, or when I'm kidding, then they tell me that I am too serious, all of the time.

I think you should do some fundraising to get more people involved. The door is wide open for HANA to demonstrate all complaints and all remedies.

jdl

I'm one of those people that doesn't ever know if you're being serious!

That being said, I'm working on putting together some fund raising plans right now. If you(or anyone else for that matter) have any suggestions; I'm all ears. I spoke with Theresia this weekend, and have a good start on what HANA is aiming for in relation to the amount of funds to raise, what those funds would be spent on, and the specifications on how those funds can be raised. It's easy to ask people to donate, but I would love some more creative ways of fund raising.

To all of those that say they've offered their help and not heard back, pm me if you want to help. Unfortunately I'm having surgery tomorrow, but I should be back online Thursday(maybe tomorrow evening, but I'll be on some seriously awesome painkillers so no guarantees!).

Charlie

miesque
06-30-2009, 10:08 PM
Thanks for that email Aly. I swore I emailed back but I guess not. My apologies. I have been busy lately and the HANA work gets me bogged down.

Regardless nothing in the immediate pipeline right now, but we are working on an ADW rating system which several of the guys have offered to be a part of in some way. Any interest on your part in that type of project?

I think Theresia has been devising some sort of committee on her end to get folks involved if they would like, however four or five other things came up and that got placed on the backburner a couple of weeks ago I think. She might be able to address that soon, and I know she has been in contact with several of the people that have asked to get involved.

The funny thing for us? It is hard to know who is serious and who is not. I have emailed about 40 folks back who said they were available for meetings or to help. Only two got back to me so far.

Anyway, thanks for the mail. Please mail back if anything interests you, or you have an idea you would like to discuss and/or run with.

D

As Dean referenced, I have been in the process on setting up a series of committees and figuring out what is the best way to structure it and going through the entire membership list, figuring out what the best fit for those individuals who have offered assistance and then allocating volunteers among committees. The last thing I want to do is to recruit people and have them feel like they are wasting their time we are not set to properly integrate them. I have just been needing a big chunk of consecutive time to devote to it to finish it and the last two months have been much more hectic then anticipated and it seems there is always more then enough HANA day to day operating activities to absorb the spare time I have (and I know that applies to the rest of the Board of Directors as well). I have a three day weekend coming up during which I hope to some significant progress on that front before I head to Los Angeles and Vegas the end of next week.

I do want to comment that while I am sorry that there are some who are not happy with the speed of our progress and or the amount we have accomplished so far, or that we are not blowing anything up, I do feel that we have made progress in our goal of giving horseplayers a voice and helping to promote positive changes in the industry, especially considering the parameters in which we operate and we are very much in this for the long run and hope to keep moving forward. Has everything been done perfectly, no, I will be the first to admit that. However, when September rolls around and we are issue a summary of the activities and achievements from our first year of existence, I am hopeful that the majority of our members will feel we are making progress and that maybe even a handful of them will be proud to be a member of the Horseplayers Association of North America.

jonnielu
06-30-2009, 11:48 PM
I'm one of those people that doesn't ever know if you're being serious!

That being said, I'm working on putting together some fund raising plans right now. If you(or anyone else for that matter) have any suggestions; I'm all ears. I spoke with Theresia this weekend, and have a good start on what HANA is aiming for in relation to the amount of funds to raise, what those funds would be spent on, and the specifications on how those funds can be raised. It's easy to ask people to donate, but I would love some more creative ways of fund raising.

To all of those that say they've offered their help and not heard back, pm me if you want to help. Unfortunately I'm having surgery tomorrow, but I should be back online Thursday(maybe tomorrow evening, but I'll be on some seriously awesome painkillers so no guarantees!).
Charlie

Oh yeah, good luck with the surgery, I hope they aren't taking out anything you really need. Tell them to put in another 50 years too.

jdl

andymays
07-01-2009, 01:40 PM
I posted this under the Synthetic surface thread in another section but it also has to do with HANA and I will put that part in bold below!

In my opinion whether someone likes of dislikes synthetic surfaces depends on the method(s) they use to handicap races and the method(s) they use to wager on those races.

The process I use is time consuming to say the least and I've found that my results are not nearly as good on a synthetic surface as a dirt surface. What has hurt me more than anything is the fact that my home tracks, and specifically my most successfull meet (Santa Anita) went to synthetic surfaces. I also never spread much in P3's, P'4's, Tri's, and Supers when my home tracks had a dirt surface. On synthetic surfaces I spread a lot more.

I do think that most HANA members and most on this Forum dislike synthetic surfaces. Slowly but surely the message is getting out to members of the media and Racetrack Executives.

I could be wrong, and I will post this under the HANA section as well, but I think rating Keenland #1 in HANA ratings was a huge mistake because of the synthetic surface. The buildup was great and got a lot of publicity but the final top 10 was so anticlimactic that I think thousands of potential members chose not to join. I know it turned me off but I still support HANA. Having said that there really was no way for the hard working people that run HANA (and do it for no compensation by the way) to know how it would affect membership.

In my opinion future ratings should be in catergories of Tracks and those with synthetic surfaces should be placed in a separate category. Until membership gets to over 20k, not pissing people off, whether it's the Racetracks or potential members should be a consideration particularly when it comes to rating Racetracks!

Jeff P
07-01-2009, 02:32 PM
I could be wrong, and I will post this under the HANA section as well, but I think rating Keenland #1 in HANA ratings was a huge mistake because of the synthetic surface.Andy,

I respectfully could not disagree more strongly with the above.

The beautiful thing (my opinion) about our 2008 track ratings was the algorithm behind the ratings. We chose 3 primary factors:

1. Takeout

2. Field Size

3. Wager Variety

That's it. Then we gatthered data from as many tracks as we could and crunched the numbers.

Afterwards it was obvious that Keeneland was head and shoulders above the rest - at least from the numbers.

And after spending a week there in April, meeting with Keeneland track management who literally rolled out the red carpet for us and listened to what we had to say... all of those crazy ideas we have about reducing takeout, increasing field sizes, making all track signals available to all licensed ADWs, the need for a national drug policy, and the importance of pool integrity...

It became crystal clear that we made the right choice.

I have met with track management elsewhere before my trip to KEE and afterwards. And I can guarantee you that no one else in the industry gets it the way track management at KEE does. In fact you (all players everywhere for that matter) would be absolutely disgusted if I posted some of the utter bullshit that people with jobs in high places in the racing industry from your home state of CA have told me with a straight face.

Surface or no, without question Keeneland IS the top track in North America.


-jp

.

andymays
07-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Andy,

I respectfully could not disagree more strongly with the above.

The beautiful thing (my opinion) about our 2008 track ratings was the algorithm behind the ratings. We chose 3 primary factors:

1. Takeout

2. Field Size

3. Wager Variety

That's it. Then we gatthered data from as many tracks as we could and crunched the numbers.

Afterwards it was obvious that Keeneland was head and shoulders above the rest - at least from the numbers.

And after spending a week there in April, meeting with Keeneland track management who literally rolled out the red carpet for us and listened to what we had to say... all of those crazy ideas we have about reducing takeout, increasing field sizes, making all track signals available to all licensed ADWs, the need for a national drug policy, and the importance of pool integrity...

It became crystal clear that we made the right choice.

I have met with track management elsewhere before my trip to KEE and afterwards. And I can guarantee you that no one else in the industry gets it the way track management at KEE does. In fact you (all players everywhere for that matter) would be absolutely disgusted if I posted some of the utter bullshit that people with jobs in high places in the racing industry from your home state of CA have told me with a straight face.

Surface or no, without question Keeneland IS the top track in North America.


-jp

.


Jeff, it may be numbers wise but not perception wise. The synthetic surface turned a lot of potential members off in my opinion.

I have been known to be wrong before though so time will tell.



Andy

Jeff P
07-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Andy,

When you say that a lot of players are turned off by synthetic surfaces, I don't disagree with that. And yes, I have to believe handle trends on dirt vs. synthetics will play a huge role in the direction tracks go with their surfaces from this point forward. THAT will be interesting, that's for sure.

But when somebody says rating KEE the #1 track was a mistake...

To that I have to speak up and tell them just how wrong that statement is. <G>

-jp

.

andymays
07-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Andy,

When you say that a lot of players are turned off by synthetic surfaces, I don't disagree with that. And yes, I have to believe handle trends on dirt vs. synthetics will play a huge role in the direction tracks go with their surfaces from this point forward. THAT will be interesting, that's for sure.

But when somebody says rating KEE the #1 track was a mistake...

To that I have to speak up and tell them just how wrong that statement is. <G>

-jp

.


If you read my entire post above you'll see that I am not blaming you guys for rating Keenland #1. The numbers you used to rate the tracks were fine. I do think that you guys underestimated the number of Horseplayers that prefer a traditional dirt surface over a synthetic surface. I used to love Keenland but rarely play it anymore only because of the surface.

If you were to rate the Tracks in catagories rather than top to bottom, less Horseplayers would feel as though HANA was dissing their favorite Track. Even though HANA is right on the numbers in my opinion it was wrong on the strategy of attracting members, particular when it came to Track Ratings.

I know most of you that run HANA like synthetic surfaces and you don't necessarily understand the animosity that traditionalist like myself have towards synthetic surfaces.

Thanks,

Andy

InsideThePylons-MW
07-01-2009, 03:33 PM
. In fact you (all players everywhere for that matter) would be absolutely disgusted if I posted some of the utter bullshit that people with jobs in high places in the racing industry from your home state of CA have told me with a straight face.


This can't possibly be true....can it? :)


Now you know what I've been going through for a long time. Welcome to my world. :bang:

andymays
07-01-2009, 03:44 PM
Jeff, I would believe anything that people in high places in California told you!

Most of them are off the charts pr**ks!

They look at Horseplayers like a necessary evil!

The Del Mar Fan Forum situation and how management handled it is a perfect example!

Indulto
07-03-2009, 04:14 PM
As Dean referenced, I have been in the process on setting up a series of committees and figuring out what is the best way to structure it and going through the entire membership list, figuring out what the best fit for those individuals who have offered assistance and then allocating volunteers among committees. The last thing I want to do is to recruit people and have them feel like they are wasting their time we are not set to properly integrate them. I have just been needing a big chunk of consecutive time to devote to it to finish it and the last two months have been much more hectic then anticipated and it seems there is always more then enough HANA day to day operating activities to absorb the spare time I have (and I know that applies to the rest of the Board of Directors as well). I have a three day weekend coming up during which I hope to some significant progress on that front before I head to Los Angeles and Vegas the end of next week.

I do want to comment that while I am sorry that there are some who are not happy with the speed of our progress and or the amount we have accomplished so far, or that we are not blowing anything up, I do feel that we have made progress in our goal of giving horseplayers a voice and helping to promote positive changes in the industry, especially considering the parameters in which we operate and we are very much in this for the long run and hope to keep moving forward. Has everything been done perfectly, no, I will be the first to admit that. However, when September rolls around and we are issue a summary of the activities and achievements from our first year of existence, I am hopeful that the majority of our members will feel we are making progress and that maybe even a handful of them will be proud to be a member of the Horseplayers Association of North America.miesque,
What do you think Cary Fotias meant in the bolded portion of his column below? ;)

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Fotias-No-Limit/comments/if-tracks-had-access/ (http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Fotias-No-Limit/comments/if-tracks-had-access/)
If Tracks Had Access …
By Cary Fotias June 29, 2009 If tracks had access to the discount window or, better yet, could borrow at the Fed Funds rate, maybe they would finally lower takeout rates. Then, when they saw the dramatic increase in handle that would inevitably result, they might, and I repeat MIGHT, realize that competitive pricing will produce not only more handle but also more profits for the industry at large

… This industry needs less racing and less gimmicks. People will bet the same amount of money whether 10 tracks or 40 tracks are running on any given Saturday. I’m not saying to do away with trifectas and superfectas (I play them all the time) but rather not to offer so many of them on every card. By concentrating money in fewer pools, liquidity will increase significantly. More big players will feel comfortable getting involved, which will lead to even more money being bet, and odds swings will decrease accordingly.

If we horseplayers have enough passion to make our voices heard, we CAN make a difference. That’s why I encourage all if you to join the Horseplayers Association of North America (HANA) if you haven’t already. There is a link to the HANA homepage on the Equiform web site. I am on the HANA advisory board as I feel HANA has no other agenda except to improve our collective well being. I think the HANA “buycott” or “pool party” is a great way to enhance our bargaining power. Check it out - I think the only way we will be heard is to employ strategies that impact the tracks’ bottom lines.By the way, he and I had an interesting discussion in the comments section which he encouraged me to post here at PA:4. Indulto says:
30 Jun 2009 at 09:32 pm |# (http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Fotias-No-Limit/comments/if-tracks-had-access/#c44842#c44842)

Mr. Fotias,
I assume that at your level of play, you currently receive rebates on your wagers at a rate determined by (and proportional to) your wagering volume over some specified time period. To be able and willing to continue making wagers qualifying you for a large rebate, I further assume that you must be showing a profit. Do your records indicate that you would still show a profit if you weren’t being rebated?

I ask this because there has been some contention in recent debates over takeout/rebate issues that whales would leave the game if direct takeout were lowered—and rebates eliminated—in order to increase overall handle by making the game more attractive to both new players and returning players who left because higher direct takeout rendered then uncompetitive.

Do you agree that all whale handle would disappear in such a scenario? Isn’t likely that pools expanded by more participants and fewer venues would bring back any disaffected whales?

In any event, the higher return on the rebated player’s wager (including losing ones) gives him an advantage over his non-rebated competition. Whether or not one views rebating as effectively lowering takeout for a tiny minority of big bankroll bettors or as an industry subsidy to players that need it least, the practice has tilted the playing field in favor of the rebated players over unrebated players; even those of equal if not greater skill. In exotic pools this advantage translates into either a lower cost per combination, regardless of minimum, or additional combinations for the same amount wagered.

Many among the vast majority of those who bet for entertainment regard this advantage as unfair, undemocratic, and unwarranted. In your entertaining HANA blog piece, “Declaration of Horseplayer Independence,” you wrote, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all horseplayers are endowed with certain unalienable rights, that among these are market-driven takeout rates, …”

So when you advocate that takeout rates should be “significantly reduced,” how do you suggest that be accomplished? Should direct takeout be lowered at all major venues (which would benefit all players equally) or should rebating be extended to all players and, if the latter, should all players be rebated equally?

As an Advisory Board member for HANA which seeks to represent horseplayers of all bankroll sizes, how have you advised the HANA leadership team on this issue? HANA team members individually and independently post comments on both the HANA blog and the PaceAdvantage.com forum. So far, only two team members have personally endorsed what I refer to as ETFADE (Equal Takeout For All; Directly or Effectively).

I personally believe that rebating has to end, and that ROI return to being a function of skill rather than bankroll size as it was in racing’s glory days. I have read some alleged whales post that 10% direct takeout would keep them in the game without rebates. I’m sure it would, but I doubt that figure would attract the necessary support form horsemen, tracks, and ADWs; at least initially.

My understanding is that some venues outside North America are succeeding with 16% takeout overall. That should be a starting point from which all parties sharing the pari-mutuel pie can live with. Until unrebated handle is self-sustaining, however, horsemen must do their part in attracting higher pool totals by starting larger fields. IMO full purses should not be distributed to fields with fewer than 8 starters and a bonus should be added whenever fields are full.

There should also be an agreement that once pools have stabilized at an acceptable level that the industry will experiment with incrementally lower takeout to seek an optimal combination of handle, takeout, and purse levels.

The past 12 months have taught all racing reform advocates that the message stressing the importance of lowering takeout has not reached its intended audience –- industry leaders who should want to revitalize racing and casual players who should be joining a movement like HANA in droves; assuming it is to their benefit to do so.

HANA’s collective endorsement of ETFADE might go a long way toward convincing interested parties that the Sport of Kings has not become the Business of Whales.

17.Cary Fotias says:
03 Jul 2009 at 11:19 am | # (http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Fotias-No-Limit/comments/if-tracks-had-access/#c44977#c44977)

Hi Indulto -

I will try and address the issues you brought up as best I can.

Yes, I receive substantial rebates and yes, I show a healthy profit on my wagering. If I weren’t getting rebates, I would still show a nice profit and, somehwat paradoxicaly, my ROI would be much higher without rebates. However, the sizable extra volume I am able to churn with rebates, makes me more “absolute dollars”.

This goes right to the crux of how lowering takeouts would increase the “absolute dollars” for the tracks.
The tracks, horsemen and legislators are inexplicably more concerned about ROI (takeout rate) than in maximizing returns. What a fractured business model. A kid with a lemonade stand knows more about pricing than most “experts” in our industry.

I would certainly not leave the game if I didn’t get rebates, but my play would be adjusted dramatically. I would bet on much fewer races and demand a bigger “edge” on my odds line before jumping into the pools. Some whales would leave the game as they work on such a small margin/big volume paradigm that they might not be able to succeed w/o rebates.

TAKEOUT REDUCTION IS A UNIVERAL REBATE and should be pursued at all costs. The smaller bettor is at a competitive disadvantage with his larger-volume counterpart and the gap needs to be closed NOW.

From one angle, as a rebate player, one might think I would be somewhat indifferent about takeout rates since the lower rebates I would get as a result of lower takeout rates would be offset by an almost identical decrease in takeout, for a net effect of zero. But, the reason I am such a vocal proponet of lower rates is that they would keep less skilled players of all bankroll sizes in the game longer. This means more profit for the really top players and much better “entertainment value” for the weaker players.

I am not faniliar with ETFADE. Can you tell me more and how to access information concerning it? I am familiar with the paceadvantage board and think it is the best forum for horseplayers on the Internet. I have never joined as I didn’t want to make it look like I was pushing my products, but I think I will so I can post there also..

Rebating will probably never end, but its effect would be severely dampened by significant takeout reduction. Very good customers should get special tretment, but not at the expense of other players. Dramatic reductions in takeout rates would benefit everyone. If wagering centers want to reward their top customers, let them use the casino method of non-cash “comps”. How about a trip to Portofino where the top hotels run $1200 euro a night? Or seasom tickets to the Mets? ( I take that back, they are too torturous to watch). An all expense paid trp to the Derby with seats on Millionaire’s Row? A brand spankin’ new Ferrari? You get my drift. For even the ssmallest players, a free beer or Racing Form now and then would be nice.

Indulto - if we can put a man on the moon and elect a black man president, we can fix this great game! But, it will take a concerted effort by all constituencies involved to make it happen. And the constituency that has the best opportunity to make it happen is the PLAYERS themselves. SPEAK (and, vociferously) NOW or forever hold your peace.

I am also very much in favor of putting smaller players on equal “technological footing”. We often hear of computer syndicates searching the pools for pricing anomalies and having the ability to place 1000 bets in a nanosecond. Well, it wouldn’t be too difficult for the industry at large to make such a template avialable to ALL PLAYERS. How much could it cost? I’d wager there are people at HANA or paceadvantage.com who could program such an interface for the benefit of all. I notice some places are offering “conditional” wagering now, and that is a first step along these lines.

Well, I’ve run of racetrack.

I’m off for a much needed vaction on the Olympic Peninsula. I’ll still be making numbers everday and will continue this excellent discussion when I have time.

All the Best and Keep The Faith

CARY..

PS Feel free to post on HANA or paceadvantage
19.Indulto says:
03 Jul 2009 at 06:13 pm

Hi CF.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. You’ve eloquently addressed the issues of primary concern to me with unprecedented clarity, and a sense of urgency that hopefully others at HANA will adopt in support of your position. I wholeheartedly agree with your following statements:

“TAKEOUT REDUCTION IS A UNIVERSAL REBATE and should be pursued at all costs. The smaller bettor is at a competitive disadvantage with his larger-volume counterpart and the gap needs to be closed NOW.”

“But, the reason I am such a vocal proponent of lower rates is that they would keep less skilled players of all bankroll sizes in the game longer. This means more profit for the really top players and much better “entertainment value” for the weaker players.”

“Rebating will probably never end, but its effect would be severely dampened by significant takeout reduction. Very good customers should get special treatment, but not at the expense of other players. Dramatic reductions in takeout rates would benefit everyone.”

“But, it will take a concerted effort by all constituencies involved to make it happen. And the constituency that has the best opportunity to make it happen is the PLAYERS themselves. SPEAK (and, vociferously) NOW or forever hold your peace.”

It occurred to me that Cangamble should be credited for having at various times voiced portions of a subset of the points you made above.

In my opinion, HANA needs to articulate the essence of the above message in order to convert some existing holdouts and to convince the unconcerned to be less cavalier about their own circumstances and those of racing.

I’ll take you up on your offer to continue this discussion when you return. Meanwhile, enjoy your vacation and I’ll post at least a link to this column at PA. I’m sure Dean will reference it on the HANA blog.

Indulto
07-05-2009, 10:03 PM
Well, the poll seems to have stabilzed at 70 HANA members who are PA posters. Too bad 13 of the 15 posters who aren't HANA members didn't say why they aren't. That would really have been helpful.

Would it surprise anyone if all 15 had different reasons? If they'll come forward, maybe their responses could form the basis for another poll, "Why won't you join HANA?".:jump:

DeanT
07-05-2009, 10:11 PM
Indy,

Are you starting to realize that what we have been saying all along is the truth, i.e. that whale types want lower takeout for all?

I hope this ends the discussion along that line and we can start moving forward on achieving what Cary speaks about for everyone.

Indulto
07-05-2009, 11:08 PM
Indy,

Are you starting to realize that what we have been saying all along is the truth, i.e. that whale types want lower takeout for all?

I hope this ends the discussion along that line and we can start moving forward on achieving what Cary speaks about for everyone.Dean,
The bolded portion of your post did not say "equally lower takeout for all."

I acknowledge your preference for rebates, and that's OK with me as long as everyone gets them at equal rates. I noticed that you haven't joined CG and Miesque in personally endorsing the concept of "Equal Takeout For All; Directly or Effectively."

Yes there are some whales who want lower takout for all. Now we know that some whales will accept equal takeout for all -- provided it's extremely low. Some whales of both persuasions may well be HANA members.

Mr. Fotias's four statements are as close as HANA has gotten so far to bringing your viewpoint and mine together. By themselves, they might simplify HANA's existing plank which some have suggested may be too far reaching at this particular stage.

I would also like to see this discussion end, but with all due respect, the issue is much too important for imprecision or word games.

DeanT
07-05-2009, 11:25 PM
the issue is much too important for imprecision or word games.

Then dont use word games. Lower takeout for all, equal takeout for all, takeout for all equally............ sheesh. It all means the same thing.

The point I make is that there are only a few ways to get this done (believe me I have explored all these issues with people in this business for years now). Players have been crying for lower takeout for generations (they were right and now the business is starting to see that), however with jurisdictions, fiefdoms, politicos and old time thinkers the way in which we get there is more important than the message. Yelling and screaming from players, boycott threats and all the rest since the year 2000 has resulted in takeouts actually being raised from 20% to 21.8%. We can scream and complain about high takeout and I am sure it will make us feel good, but that does not solve the problem. We have to get past that and offer solutions.

Will there be a blanket reduction with three big tracks doing it like California, Woodbine and NYRA with all their politicos? Or will it be done by ADW's offering lower takeout for those who choose to participate in lower takeouts? I think, barring something completely bizarre, the latter is more realistic, therefore that, imo, is something worth pursuing. I have been banging my head against the wall (as has Cary and others) for a long long time and we have gotten nowhere.

If case 2 occurs and it shows that this is a profit maximizing principle, then I believe case 1 can occur and it can hopefully snowball from there.

Hong Kong in 2007 experimented with lower takeouts for higher volume players. It worked. They have expanded the principles to include more players. Lower take in Australia worked the same way. the UK worked their lower takes in stages. This is not a one and you're out proposition. North America is FAR behind the rest of the world, and they will not catch up in one day, or one year. It will take time and making sure workable solutions are offered, rather than complaints is the only way it will get done, imo.

andymays
07-05-2009, 11:48 PM
Everyone talks about Whales. What constitutes a Whale? What is the amount of churn for one year to qualify someone as a Whale?

DeanT
07-06-2009, 12:08 AM
Who knows Andy. All I know is this guy might be considered a whale, but only when he got lower takes - that is what we have to get this industry to understand. This person was a friend of Rich Bauers and is the best example that smaller players can be whales if we can ever get something passed. Hell even Indy could be a whale. That would be too cool. He'd have to argue with himself (jk Indy) :)

I was using pinnacle offshore until the debacle. Because of the rebate I found a way to make place bets profitable. I wound up with a 3.2% loss, but a rebate of 7%. It actually was a rebate of 6.2% as they did not give a rebate on 2.20 horses.

Now the kicker is, I went from betting about 30 to 50k to 1.3 million that year.It made the churn factor possible. If takeout is lowered it may have the same affect. I now have changed my play where place betting is profitable, but it is so small that I have stopped. I would definitely go back if takeout is lowered significantly.

BillW
07-06-2009, 12:22 AM
Who knows Andy. All I know is this guy might be considered a whale, but only when he got lower takes - that is what we have to get this industry to understand. This person was a friend of Rich Bauers and is the best example that smaller players can be whales if we can ever get something passed. Hell even Indy could be a whale. That would be too cool. He'd have to argue with himself (jk Indy) :)

One thing for sure, some "old school" track management are out there wringing their hands and laughing their asses off seeing horseplayers getting hung up in such minutiae while takeouts slowly drift upward. :rolleyes:

jonnielu
07-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Andy,

I respectfully could not disagree more strongly with the above.

Afterwards it was obvious that Keeneland was head and shoulders above the rest - at least from the numbers.

And after spending a week there in April, meeting with Keeneland track management who literally rolled out the red carpet for us and listened to what we had to say... all of those crazy ideas we have about reducing takeout, increasing field sizes, making all track signals available to all licensed ADWs, the need for a national drug policy, and the importance of pool integrity...

It became crystal clear that we made the right choice.

Surface or no, without question Keeneland IS the top track in North America.


-jp


You could take the algorithms and the number crunching out, and Keeneland still comes up #1. Then, if you could refrain from handicapping it long enough to analyze the big picture, you might see how Keeneland got here.

The history of the game says that a renaissance occured in 1936 because of pari-mutual wagering, and I agree that was certainly part of it. But, only the part that enabled all people to adopt horse racing as a sport, with an understanding that anyone could play, and anyone could win.

With that single idea in mind, and a commitment to promote horse racing as a sport for all, people put shovel to dirt and mortar to rock, and built Keeneland. 63 years later, a horsetrack where it still rings true that anyone can play, and anyone can win. It is amazing what can happen, if just a few people can sign on to what could be.

Without regard to personal opinions, Keeneland has always put the promotion of the sport, as a sport for all, up front as the #1 task. It has embraced it's detractors with enthusiasm as well as it's most ardent fans.

Why? Because in Lexington, the truth is known through experience. Horse racing will grow and flourish as long as anyone can play, and anyone can win.

The dream is alive and well in Lexington, KY. But, who will grab the baton to run it out across the whole country? HANA could. Will it?

Renaissance II is waiting to be started, and there is a race track in south florida that needs to be re-opened. People could do that, they only need a conduit, and that could be HANA.

jdl

DeanT
07-06-2009, 12:28 PM
I completely respect Andy's opine (and it is shared by many as we have seen from comments on the blog re-synthetics and KEE). It is a tough one. But as Jonnie and so many others have stated, KEE tries their ass off and is a part of racings fabric, as witnessed time and again. Even with their installing of synth it was done to make betting better (the inside speedway there was complained about by bettors for years) and for the good of the horses (yes, the jury is still out on that, but in the UK with their AW surfaces studies showed it helped when they first went ahead here and that was all they could go on at the time). Whether it turns out to be a bad thing or a good thing KEE at least tried to make things better and their motives were pure. If it becomes bad for bettors (beyond a reasonable doubt), or if it is not proven to help horses I will bet you a beer they will tear it up and install something new. That's what top tracks do.

Jonnie,

We have been, and continue to be, a foot soldier in the fabric of Kentucky racing through our VP Mike Maloney. He is invited to meetings representing horseplayers in KY and is passionate about racing there, as we all are. We are constantly looking for reps in other jurisdictions to help. One at NYRA, one at Cali and so on. Racings fabric is important to protect for horseplayers and the game of racing overall, that goes without saying, and we need all the help we can get to make sure it is continued. We are only 9 months old. We hope in a year or two to have several Mike Maloney's all over the US and Canada who are willing to be heard and take up the challenge.

Regards,

D

andymays
07-06-2009, 12:33 PM
Just making a point and a suggestion for what it’s worth.

As someone who’s played the Horses for many years both as a “guppy” and a “whale” (currently guppy status and I blame it on synthetic surfaces) I feel the need to throw my two cents in as usual. So here it goes.


I first noticed HANA and eventually joined HANA after being on the Del Mar Fan Forum for a few months. The reason I joined was not only because I agree with most of what HANA represents but because Jeff was on that Forum day after day fighting it out with the naysayers and smart asses that infested that Forum. Always an intelligent well thought out response to whatever smart ass comments were thrown his way. As a self described rebel, contrarian, loner, or whatever you want to call me I could not understand the attacks that went HANA’s way because they were totally unwarranted, yet Jeff kept responding in a dignified, thoughtful, and intelligent manner. Jeff’s representation of HANA caused me to join as much as anything.


My point is that having a presence in a hostile environment like the Del Mar Forum and all the other Forums is important. Getting 10 new members a day by setting an example on the various Forums is one way to go. HANA is about truth and fairness in a game that doesn’t exactly embody these virtues. And as we have all seen the last several years, the industry and those that run it can be hostile to anyone trying to shine light on dubious aspects of the Sport.


One thing that is important to remember is that the majority of people you are trying to recruit as members are not as educated, thoughtful, or articulate as you. They respond to impulse and emotion as much as they respond to anything. There was an old rule in direct mail that once a person opened a letter the sender had three seconds to grab the attention of the person opening the letter. If that person didn’t recognize or appreciate the contents in 3 seconds it went in the trash. Most consumers have ADD when it comes to marketing material. My point here is that you need to simplify your message so the rank and file Horseplayer can glance at HANA and say “I’m for that” and then join. The more they get into the details the greater the chance they will find a reason not to join. Once again the 3 second rule applies here to attract new members in my opinion. There is no good reason for people not to join whether they make a bet once a month or once every 10 minutes.


One of the objections to joining is that they will say that HANA caters to the Whales. In my opinion it is a mistake to put these guys up on a pedestal. Whales are like anyone else when it comes to playing Horses. Most lose and have another source of income to support their habit. Some people like myself are Whales one year and guppies the next. That’s how it goes when you gamble all the time. Getting rebates is a plus for sure though.


HANA does a great job but needs to attract the rank and file Horseplayer that feels underserved and overtaxed. Avoiding the trenches is a strategy that gets you where the Racetrack Executives are today. Disconnected from the customer!

Thanks,

Andy

DeanT
07-06-2009, 12:46 PM
Nice post Andy.......... and a fair point!

The trouble we tend to have in relaying lower takeout anecdotes is that we have to use big bettors to show empirically the message. Just like Rich's friend above who bet $30,000 a year and got a lower takeout who bet $1.3M with that lower takeout. The larger players (who were smaller players at one time) are our evidence.

We want to have more opines on the blog relaying more about fan stuff, or small bettor stuff (the blog is more an education site anyway, as we have to show studies and so on to get people to have lower take and other issues on the burner so that in two years or three years tracks will never again say "no one cares about takeout like they have been). Any time someone wants to talk about anything on the mission statement they can submit it. The mission statement and goals are pretty huge and those ideals cut across every section of bettor.

My passions are lower takeout, better info, ADW availablity and cheap data. Those are not every horseplayers passion I know, so having people to talk about other issues that are their passions (again as long as they fit the mission statement) is something that we are looking for, because I agree, we SHOULD be doing a better job representing more issues. It is not because we disagree with any of those issues, it is because we do not have enough volunteers to write about them in a good way (blogging is tough and it takes a certain mindset, always wary of what we are trying to accomplish).

Thanks for the note (ince again we agree with you very much on its premise), and thanks for many of your notes and ideas that you send via email to us.

D

andymays
07-06-2009, 01:22 PM
The other thing that all the analytical types need to remember. If it were all about the numbers everyone would go to Sizzler for the 24oz steak and nobody would go to Mortons for their 24oz steak. In my opinion the synthetic racing product is of a lesser quality overall. In Europe the Horses with the least ability and class race on synthetic surfaces! I believe that synthetic surfaces have hurt quality racing in the U.S. and not helped.

Indulto
07-06-2009, 06:33 PM
Then dont use word games. Lower takeout for all, equal takeout for all, takeout for all equally............ sheesh. It all means the same thing. ...The first is not the same as the last two, "but you already knew that." ;) ... Hell even Indy could be a whale. That would be too cool. He'd have to argue with himself (jk Indy) :)I know you're joking, Dean, but in fact I do argue with myself everyday about whether HANA deserves continued and future support of non-professional bettors, who have no ties to the racing industry, and for whom social interaction by itself is insufficient.One thing for sure, some "old school" track management are out there wringing their hands and laughing their asses off seeing horseplayers getting hung up in such minutiae while takeouts slowly drift upward. :rolleyes:BW,
Those who are laughing aren't laughing at the whales in HANA, they're laughing at all the casual bettors who aren't joining HANA (for reasons perhaps they're aware of and we are not) and even the ones within HANA who won't be getting more competitive against the whales any time soon.

DeanT
07-06-2009, 07:21 PM
When I took a customer service course in preparation for a job at a bank as a youngster, the course head spoke about not pleasing everyone. The gist was that people who call or come in to complain can never be pleased and will simply be not worth the effort, as their poison will bring down the organization, not raise it up. I am beginning to think you Indulto are exactly who they were speaking of. You will never be pleased and that is completely fine with me.

We are happy with our membership and really happy with the support that 99% of them show us. We have a fantastic group here. In only nine short months we have MORE members than the NTRA Players Coalition, and they have a marketing budget and a full time staff, as well as myriad free media. This tells me that the HANA crew and the members who are working their butts off (and it is not just the board, it is Chick, Cbedo, Andymays, Andy G, Rich B, Charlie, Ernie C and many others who I am forgetting that have helped both financially and non-financially) are doing damn good work.

If horseplayers are focused on any of the following issues (and they are not whale issues, or non whale issues, or whatever you want to label them Indulto to pit people against each other ........ they are HORSEPLAYER issues) they will find the group to their like mind.

Thanks to everyone for signing up who care about these issues. Let's hope we can fix some of them in the next several years and with all the selfless member support that we are receiving in this short time we have been incorporated, I think we can.

As for this week we are working on the wagering integrity problems of the business and hope to have some news on that out soon. That is an issue for $2 bettors, or $200 bettors like most of the issues on the Mission Statement and nothing Indulto says about it will change that. There are a lot of people who want to see a horseplayer group fail, and crawl back into their shell, but with 30% growth month over month I think they will be waiting for some time for HANA to go away.






Public Awareness and Perception
Pool Integrity
Odds Updates in Real Time
Drugs and Cheating
Excessive Takeouts
Making it tough to get Rebates
Breakage
Distribution Of Signals and Account Deposit Wagering
Open Access to Past Performance and Results Data
Open Access to Live Track Video and Race Replays
Parking, Admission, and Concession Prices
Racing Surfaces
Avg Field Size on the Decline
Arizona's Racing Law
Taxation
Transparency and Full Disclosure
Scratches and Changes

Indulto
07-06-2009, 08:36 PM
When I took a customer service course in preparation for a job at a bank as a youngster, the course head spoke about not pleasing everyone. The gist was that people who call or come in to complain can never be pleased and will simply be not worth the effort, as their poison will bring down the organization, not raise it up. I am beginning to think you Indulto are exactly who they were speaking of. You will never be pleased and that is completely fine with me.

... If horseplayers are focused on any of the following issues (and they are not whale issues, or non whale issues, or whatever you want to label them Indulto to pit people against each other ........ they are HORSEPLAYER issues) they will find the group to their like mind.

... As for this week we are working on the wagering integrity problems of the business and hope to have some news on that out soon. That is an issue for $2 bettors, or $200 bettors like most of the issues on the Mission Statement and nothing Indulto says about it will change that. There are a lot of people who want to see a horseplayer group fail, and crawl back into their shell, but with 30% growth month over month I think they will be waiting for some time for HANA to go away.I'm glad you were able to let it all hang out there, Dean. I hope it took some of the pressure off. I think it will encourage many who have wanted to do the same and I'm fine with that too.

I have no doubt that HANA is capable of achieving results on many of the issues you listed. It's too bad you had to be provoked into releasing it. However, I doubt it will distract many from the takeout issue which was the initial rallying point, and one which you may want the current membership to collectively re-affirm or else designate a lower priority for.

As far as pitting people against each other is concerned, that's exactly what the industry is doing by allowing whales to maintain the rebate advantage. I believe that most whales are unwilling to alter the status quo, and of the whales in HANA who support takeout reform, few are willing to speak out as Mr. Fotias did to reach both those of us who are focused on that issue and the industry leaders who are denying us a fair shake.

Several revelations have come out of my most recent protest. The myth that whales would leave in droves without rebates appears to have been debunked as well as the claim that rebates don't put the unrebated at a disadvantage.

Now we have to determine whether the claim that whales can win without rebates is fact or myth.

andymays
07-06-2009, 08:39 PM
Why does anyone think that so called "Whales" have some special advantage (rebates aside)?

cj
07-06-2009, 09:50 PM
Why does anyone think that so called "Whales" have some special advantage (rebates aside)?

Well, rebates are the special advantage, and a damn big one.

andymays
07-06-2009, 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
Why does anyone think that so called "Whales" have some special advantage (rebates aside)?

I was responding to another post that said that Whales would be winners even without rebates.

cj
07-06-2009, 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
Why does anyone think that so called "Whales" have some special advantage (rebates aside)?

I was responding to another post that said that Whales would be winners even without rebates.

Well, they are good enough to have an edge with a rebate, so they are doing much better than the average player. That is if they are winning of course.

Dave Schwartz
08-04-2009, 10:10 PM
I was responding to another post that said that Whales would be winners even without rebates.

This is preciely what most players misunderstand. The business model for a whale does not include winning flat. Sure, if you can it is fine (and I have heard that one of them does).

But as a general rule if you are winning then you should bet more. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread the difference between takeout and rebate is that the takeout benefits you only on winners while the rebate is on every bet.


Dave

ralph_the_cat
10-05-2009, 03:14 AM
Please --
If you voted no, and don't plan on becoming a HANA member right now -- please let us know why not.

Some great people involved with HANA, but some very arrogant people involved with HANA as well, and the supporters seem to be the most arrogant... I would support a group that came back to reality and stopped swimming in the sand... theres only one way horseplayers can make the NEEDED improvements and it involves doing something they never imagined... I dont sit in on your meetings, so I cant tell you if the light bulb ever came on, but I know the short time I spend visiting the site theres never been a mention of it...

andymays
10-05-2009, 12:18 PM
Some great people involved with HANA, but some very arrogant people involved with HANA as well, and the supporters seem to be the most arrogant... I would support a group that came back to reality and stopped swimming in the sand... theres only one way horseplayers can make the NEEDED improvements and it involves doing something they never imagined... I dont sit in on your meetings, so I cant tell you if the light bulb ever came on, but I know the short time I spend visiting the site theres never been a mention of it...

Ralph, you're a member whether you know it or not. All Horseplayers are members.

You could be one of 1500 official members or one of a hundred thousand unofficial members. The benefits of what HANA does isn't limited to official members. ;)

If you have an idea throw it out! :ThmbUp:

ralph_the_cat
10-05-2009, 01:56 PM
[/B]

Ralph, you're a member whether you know it or not. All Horseplayers are members.

You could be one of 1500 official members or one of a hundred thousand unofficial members. The benefits of what HANA does isn't limited to official members. ;)

If you have an idea throw it out! :ThmbUp:

nice to see a positive response... and I agree, we all are one, some just like to draw a line in the sand right away when someone disagrees... If takeout is ever going to improve theres only one group that you need to get the support of, that means supporting that group as well...

Lasix67
09-16-2010, 11:29 AM
Has anyone listened to owner Satish Sanan on "At the Races with Steve Byk"? He is passionate about the business and in my opinion has some excellent points that also reflect much of what HANA supports. We need more people like this and organizations like HANA to make a difference in Our game not only for the present but especially for it's future.

Lasix67
09-16-2010, 11:35 AM
Well, rebates are the special advantage, and a damn big one.

I looked at my ADW account management over the past few years and noticed that I'm averaging about 1500 plays a year with a ROI of -0.03. Rebates would bring my ROI to a point of at least break even or maybe even a slight profit which would allow me to make even more plays which is a great example, at least in my case, for why rebates are an important part of the improvement of the game for the player and ultimately for the tracks,etc. in the return on increased handle.

Horseplayersbet.com
09-16-2010, 12:18 PM
Has anyone listened to owner Satish Sanan on "At the Races with Steve Byk"? He is passionate about the business and in my opinion has some excellent points that also reflect much of what HANA supports. We need more people like this and organizations like HANA to make a difference in Our game not only for the present but especially for it's future.
Sanan makes some good points, but his plan would destroy the customer base even more because he is of the mindset that takeout isn't important.
He, like many other failed horse owners believe that if you increase purses by whatever means possible, horseplayers will flock to the product. He even talks about increasing takeout when that happens.
His model is already being used in Canada by Woodbine/HPI, and Woodbine still has one of the highest collective takeouts in North America (plus they have slots). Good field size, great purses and still they can't even match a track like Hawthorne Park in handle on most days.

Failure to recognize that the number one problem with horse racing and growth today is a product with a takeout close to twice what it should be to optimize things, is Sanan's biggest weakness, and he is one of many that should be ignored until he gets it.

Lasix67
09-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Sanan makes some good points, but his plan would destroy the customer base even more because he is of the mindset that takeout isn't important.
He, like many other failed horse owners believe that if you increase purses by whatever means possible, horseplayers will flock to the product. He even talks about increasing takeout when that happens.
His model is already being used in Canada by Woodbine/HPI, and Woodbine still has one of the highest collective takeouts in North America (plus they have slots). Good field size, great purses and still they can't even match a track like Hawthorne Park in handle on most days.

Failure to recognize that the number one problem with horse racing and growth today is a product with a takeout close to twice what it should be to optimize things, is Sanan's biggest weakness, and he is one of many that should be ignored until he gets it.

You hit on some good points that I don't disagree with, but what is the opinion of his belief that rebates are or could be an artificial form of lowering the takeout?

Horseplayersbet.com
09-16-2010, 01:52 PM
You hit on some good points that I don't disagree with, but what is the opinion of his belief that rebates are or could be an artificial form of lowering the takeout?
He only wants to rebate big players. And he only says so grudgingly. I'm for a level playing field, though right now it is impossible with different laws in different jurisdictions.

Rebating only the bigger players doesn't help horse racing one iota.

InsideThePylons-MW
09-16-2010, 01:55 PM
You hit on some good points that I don't disagree with, but what is the opinion of his belief that rebates are or could be an artificial form of lowering the takeout?

Rebates with Sanan in charge would be almost non-existant.

He wants to raise host fees to levels such as the ADW, rebate shop, bet taker, etc. only get appx. 3-5% of each bet so there would be nothing to rebate.

That coupled with his, takeout doesn't matter/raise takeout if the product is good, mentality would destroy wagering.

jelly
09-16-2010, 09:56 PM
Sanan makes some good points, but his plan would destroy the customer base even more because he is of the mindset that takeout isn't important.
He, like many other failed horse owners believe that if you increase purses by whatever means possible, horseplayers will flock to the product. He even talks about increasing takeout when that happens.
His model is already being used in Canada by Woodbine/HPI, and Woodbine still has one of the highest collective takeouts in North America (plus they have slots). Good field size, great purses and still they can't even match a track like Hawthorne Park in handle on most days.
[Failure to recognize that the number one problem with horse racing and growth today is a product with a takeout close to twice what it should be to optimize things, is Sanan's biggest weakness, and he is one of many that should be ignored until he gets it.

Good points.


Sanan's a likeable guy but when i heard him say we need to raise the takeout I almost fell out of my chair. :bang:


Would like to see someone debate him on Steve Byks show!

BUD
07-26-2011, 09:57 PM
What Has HANA Been Doin?

PaceAdvantage
07-27-2011, 05:11 AM
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/