RAGS TO RICHES, TODAY?

[pktruckdriver]

Rags to Riches, in the game of horse racing, is it still done today?



Recently I decided to make an attempt to play the horses for profit, not really sure how far it could go, and relied on others to help me make my decision, and this board played a big part too. I decided to find a tool to help me pick winners, a software program, one that was highly touted as one of the best, but it was a tool, meaning that I needed to learn how to use the tool , in order to make it work right, which is pick winning horses, thus helping me to profit, well that was a mistake, and losta money later, I am told that the this tool may not work for me, after a year of learning and investing time and money, for me a lot of money, but that is not the issue here, as with every tool in this game one can waste money trying to beat this game, and beating it means to profit, your ROI, must show positive results, and show them for long period of time, like a year or a meet, as they say in this biz, which many believe can not be done, and I still do not believe those people.



That is right I feel that winning at the horses can still be done, and profit is definitely a real expectation, that can be met, why not?



You see that the previous tool I used before was not the only wasted money I tried and used before in this business, as I too have used the so called " Pick Services ", and spent less than the other tool, which did not really ever show a true profit, but at times the Pick Services went on a streak and I made some money, but being a small time player, rarely making 20 win bets, or betting more than 200 a day, my profit then was small, and I then proceeded to blow the winnings on bills and such , and that was where I got the idea this game was playable and beatable with the right tools to help you find the winners, your handicapping skills, basically dictated whether you would win or lose, so , I thought...



Now I have heard many time if you want become a millionaire playing the horses, then start with 10 million, that may be true, but if I had 10 million , then I would not be so worked up over beating this game as I must have beaten something to have 10 million, no? But I do not , so let us move on, and this post will have a few part to it, one being my story and how sad it is , and then one part where I would like to hear from those who made it with the horses and are making a very comfortable living in a horse related business, such as a Pick Service , or Software , or Books, or maybe even playing and winning a pick 6 or huge super, or many of them, I would like to hear form you.





1. Have you made a living from your "Pick Service" and mind sharing how you got started and how you see the future for your business, and maybe what got you started in this business, if you don't mind sharing with us, please. I will not go into how someone can make tons of money selling you halve the field as their picks, yet people keep coming back, as a lot of services give the top 4 picks, which is halve the field in the average race of 8 runners, how bout giving out 1 or 2 picks instead. Notice how they give out 4 picks and then go back a show how they hit the winner and ex/tri and super too, if you only boxed everything for a Zillion dollars, and then it paid only a hundred, sorry, sore note here too.



2. Software programmers, are you making a living as this business seemed to have boomed lately , and yes it may have tapered off, but some have been in this business for awhile and others tried and faded away quietly. Would those who succeed be willing to speak on your success of your business, or the hardship of it, and the reasons why, either way. I know my tool provider is successful, though I was not, oh well, and for this reason I know this business can generate some good income from the horses, because I spent a good amount trying to find a software program to work for me, and I did not , but I am still looking and may have found a new one that does not cost as much, no where near what I been paying, but the place where they all do get you is in the Data for the program, the PP's and Results, as it seems the providers of that info is where the true money making is at, over 100.00 a month on average for your data, no matter what program you use, but then if you used the DRF paper edition, yeah the old fashioned thing, we all called "The Form" , it too would cost you plenty to get each race day, and if you played many tracks then it cost even more. Wow did I get carried away again, and get way off course, sorry, I get passionate about this topic, and man it just comes flowing out onto the keyboard, the frustration, the time and money wasted and I get fed up with it, sorry.



3. The data providers, what had you seen that made you start out in this business, and for you, everyday is a winning day, for you picking winners does not matter, you just provide the data needed by all the tools out there, congrats on finding a niche to fill, you all seem to be doing well, and have plenty of different software's using different providers, so to me it seems the data business is been spread around nicely to accommodate everyone, a rare feat if I may so, no one really trying to eat up all the others, it seems you all coincide just nicely, so how did you get started, was it like Bill Gates out of his garage for a few bucks and now has the biggest company, please let us know, thanks. This was what I should'a done, as it is fool proof, at least to me, maybe it's not thou.



4. Authors, those who wrote the best read books, how did you get started out writing these best-selling books, you Beyer's and Crist, and Jim Mazur, who's he, big time at DRF thou, and there are many many more, do they profit from these ventures, they range from Money Management to Pace and Speed and all things considered worth knowing for picking and winning at the Horses. Maybe a few of you could tell us what got you started in this and why you decided to write a book or many books for that matter, is ther a living in it, be honest now, do not worry I will take your spot away from you, as I am only GED educated, not properly schooled, so I can't write books, only long posts on forum boards, but the thought has crossed my mind thou, but what to write about, the pitfalls associated with Horse Playing, all the wrong turns one could make, trust me on this one I made them all, and most likely wiil continue to do so, I hope not , and actually feel very comfy where i am now, but speaking from past experience, there are money grabbers at all corners in this business, and one could get pulled into any of them very easily, I did , and most of you probally did too, and if not then congrats to you, really, and I do hope you help others from falling prey to them. But then in this business what works for you may not work for them, etc..., that is BS to me, either it picks winners, or gives out winners or it does not. But here is where I must reel myself in because I could go on a really big tangent here about this subject, but will not, not now anyway.



5. Owners/Claimers , just like other investments, are there many out there beating the odds and accomplishing profitablilty year after profitable year? Is claiming horses a money making business or just a tax write off for the truly rich? I hear about people finding that gem among the claimer ranks and they go on to riches, it happens every year no, ??. Who was it this year the principle from Lousiville, a 40k horse wins G1 , is that not Rags to Riches, let us hear from you guys or gals , about your best and biggest find among the claimers, and the reason why you found this horse, by good hard work or a mistake, but prize money for G1's are very very good, and making a million daollars today is not that hard either is it, but some say the really big money is in the breeding end of things, so do many claimers buy the right horse for breeding and hit the joackpot that way too, how bout your story.





6. Now the Handicappers, you have the Pro's and then the amatuer's, the retiree's and the hope and prayer's, and all those in between. In this area, it is where I feel I could make a break thru, but I feel that I have not choosen the right tool to help me get there, I thought I did but it turns out I did not, and a year of watsted time and more importantly money, being dragged along , with this and that, and I FELL FOR IT, yep I did, but this about another subject, picking big time tickets, or picking consistent winners, and showing the all powerful positive ROI, what others claim can not be done. I think it can be done and there are many doing it everyday, go to your track and you will see them, they really are not hard to find. Then there are those that get really good at picking exotic bets and hitting them frenquently enough to make huge profits, such as the pick 3 and pick 4, superfecta's, now with dime super's, being able to sweep the pools are much more possible and being done every week, and maybe everyday, these payout are huge. Then you have the big racedays, The biggest the Ky. Derby where it is home to life changing payout almost each year, jst look at the super the last few years, and with BB as the fav it still paid 58k 2 years ago, that is riches for me, takes me right out of debt and into the green, but those hits are made higher profile hits and races, but even smaller days on weekends at the bigger tracks they have plenty of 3-5k payouts as well as 30-50k super payouts, plus many high pick 4 payouts and pick6's pay too much sometimes, like the 3 million last year at Socal, man that is better than the lottery or is it, the IRS takes out a lot of it. So how about hearing from the regulars making a living at this game and those who have hit life changing payoffs, and what you did with them and those who hit more than one, and even those who go hunting for them, how do you do it and what helps you win? Lets us hear from you please.







7. What have I left out, please fill in blanks for me and lets us hear how you made money on this game of horses. Did you start a truck horse hauling business from one truck and now own 100 and you never have to work again, something like that maybe. Or a website you started and have had great success with Bossman a big congrats to you for a job well done, tell us your story, again I know.





I am asking this info because lately I was told that I could not win and would never be able to, it pissed me off to no ends, especailly after all the effort I put into this and was strung along with this and then that, and if I did this and that, then I would make profits, now I am told nope you can't do it, it's not for you, that hurts, poor people can not make it this business of horses, no way, BS I say, yet maybe I could still continue trying and paying for this and that and then 5 years later still waiting for the right tool to come along, well it hear the next best thing is here but not for me, how would you take to that, not to well , but then I really admire the Honesty, finally, yes finally, after a year, and much $$ spent trying, I am told nope not for you, but we could still keep trying, and you could still keep spending your very very hard to come by money trying to find a system that works, as others are doing apparently, and I believe they are, but I am not, and I am worried about me , not them, wouldn't you be?? So lets hear about all those who took a 500 bankroll and built an empire on it or hit that big one, or what ever else may have happend in this business of Horse's. I refuse to be told I can not make it work, I refuse to be told I cna not hit the big one, and I refuse to be told I am not smart enough or have the right attitude, right frame of mind, the money required, the knowledge, as I think they are all full of BS, I am determined to win and keep looking till I do, and being told I can't pissess me off, sorry about this, but I feel a little better now, but I still need to win.







I will leave this for now and come back to it and add on more if Bossman leaves it up, and he should, why not no names are mentioned anywhere, except mine, only concepts are mentioned, including his very own, the website. So till later when I cool down and re-read this I will then comment more.





Patrick

[wisconsin]

I have tried it all, as far as tips go. In 1981, I began a tip sheet called Turf Champion, sold it outside Hawthorne, but was told to go away on my 3rd day selling it by security. Anyway, the first race on the first day the top pick named Trojan Swoon won and paid $23. Sold about 100 sheets the next two days, after that one, until I was told not to sell outside. None of the stands wanted to carry my sheet, either, so that was the end of that.

We next tried a 1-900 line in the mid '90's, and that was not profitable at all. One day I gave Tarquin Joe at Belmont, who paid $60 and only one caller knew about it. That lasted one summer.

Finally, in my attempt to capitalize on picks, I joined tipshop.com with my Las Vegas Insider Play of the Day. One horse only per day. For a stretch, it was the number one seller on that site. For my efforts, we split the take, and I was getting a check for about $300 per month. I was paying about $100 per month for the online Form, though, and it took a lot of time to look for good plays to actually post. When winter came that year, people stopped buying my picks, which I think were averaging about a 33% hit rate. Had some nice $10-20 horses there, and even had an exacta for $87 I gave out, thought that was rare for me to give one.

Bottom line is you can make a go at the track, but it's hard. I thought seling would be easier, but it's not. Play your own stuff, and be happy you can even play such a great game. Economics keep me working, but someday, just someday......

[Sid]

Stick with this post and you might enjoy, and in some cases learn, unless your cranial cage has razor wire all around.

Sometime circa the mid-'50s James Michener produced an essay for the Writer's Guild on the matter of making a living as a novelist. If anyone was entitled to an opinion about making a living as a novelist, it was Michener, who was more or less the Stephen King of his time. Which is not meant as a knock on either writer. Together, adjusted for inflation, I would guess Michener and King made more money writing book-length fiction than any two people in history.

It has been almost 50 years since I read Michener's essay. I don't have a copy. I just now spent a couple minutes and could find no sign of it on the internet. So we'll work from memory, and just address the salient point Michener was trying to make to would-be novelists.

I have spent almost all my adult life in and around publishing and horseplaying, usually both at the same time. And the reason I wish I could find a copy of Michener's essay is that with just a little tweaking it could easily have been an essay about horseplaying.

There are, believe it or not (or at least once upon a time there were) more people who envision themselves making a living as novelists than the number of people who think they can become "professional horseplayers." And what Michener told his fellow Writers Guild members was this, in my own paraphrase . . .

Take a table. Pile on it 100 novels you admire from 100 different novelists your admire. No wait, make it 100 novels by novelists whom you think make a living writing novels. Now here's what we're going to do . . .

Remove every novel written by someone who teaches, full-time or part-time. Just like that, your table -- which had threatened to collapse -- is no longer in danger. A remarkable number of novelists are teachers.

Remove every novel written by someone who has a writing or editing job at newspapers, or magazines, or PR agencies, or publicizing a think tank, or explaining why oil companies are the greenest companies on Earth. Suddenly, there is enough room on the table to set the buffet for the rest of our little meeting.

Remove every novel written by someone who had a little success with that title but since then has either not written anything that made its advance (sold enough copies that the publisher didn't lose his ass giving the writer a few bucks up front), or has not even been able to find a publisher for.

Michener went on like that. I wish I could swear to the number of actual full-time novelists he estimated were sitting up and taking nourishment in the mid-'50s (back when people actually read books). Memory tells me it was a dozen or less. But some of you already know that I think horseplayers' mania for quantification is largely silly. And here, for instance, whether Michener's estimate was six writers or 12 writers or 24 writers, you get the picture.

Like dozens of people here I have spent many years playing horses. I spent a couple years at the racetrack every single day of one of the country's longest race meets, missing only one or two days to attend my daughter's wedding.

At the height of that period, I liked to think that I was staying afloat -- not very well, but staying afloat -- by wagering on horse races. It was a great period, not virtual but at a real racetrack, with real people, ranging from the dumbest to the brightest people I ever have met. Besides that, the dumbest had their virtues and the brightest had their failings. Ah, the humanity of it all.

But when you put it to the Michener test, it gets a little dicey. Make a (very) few bucks here writing notes for the track program. Free-lance a magazine article or two about horses. And -- oh, yeah, I guess I did do a couple little projects that had nothing to do with the horses. Et cetera. And when you looked around, there was a whole lot of that going on with other daily bettors.

We sometimes guessed how much the handle would fall if all the track's employees were forced to stop betting. Some guessed as much as 30 percent of handle came from front-side workers and almost that much came from backside workers, which would have meant less than half of handle came from customers . . . and I am chuckling as I review those estimates and can't really see any basis for dismissing them out of hand. One of the people who helped with the estimate, after all, was the mutuels manager . . . and he was sent packing at one point because, well, yeah, he was contributing to handle.

Generally, people on the backside work at the track because they like to work with horses or because they can't do much of anything else. On the front side, a large number of workers took their jobs because they put in their time within a step (or a runner's step) of a mutuel window.

Things have changed. Day traders who would rather churn exactas than pork bellies stay home and bet from their computers. I suspect the number who actually turn a long-term, full-time profit from that activity is approximately equal in both cases (and remember, we are not talking about making a living, or even subsidizing your gambling, off sales commissions or tout fees).

One big difference between novelists and horseplayers. Very few people say: "I am going to write novels and get rich!" Lots of people say: "I am going to play horses and get rich!" Maybe I'm wrong about the percentages in one vs. the other, but I'd guess it's a heater.

[jonnielu]

Rags to Riches, in the game of horse racing, is it still done today?



I refuse to be told I can not make it work, I refuse to be told I cna not hit the big one, and I refuse to be told I am not smart enough or have the right attitude, right frame of mind, the money required, the knowledge, as I think they are all full of BS, I am determined to win and keep looking till I do, and being told I can't pissess me off, sorry about this, but I feel a little better now, but I still need to win.


Patrick

So in other words, you just refuse to listen. So, why couldn't the last guy make you a winner??

jdl

[wizard_of_odds]

Doesnt matter what you do to get ahead in this game,The odds are always against you.Scoring big on one race feeds the greedy frenzy that we all have,It doesnt matter how big or small,We all have that inner sense that is mad we didnt bet more.When you do hit it big,It does make you cocky so you doubleup for the next race and you blow your money.Come the last race and the machines have their money back.So now your into the next day still trying to beat the races.You can eat with your betting money but never bet with you eating money.Something we have all done

[pktruckdriver]

So in other words, you just refuse to listen. So, why couldn't the last guy make you a winner??

jdl


Hey Jon

Basically for the same reason you couldn't, Jon, they could not pick winners, but kept taking your money, and yes I admit I gave it, $$ , to them hoping things would change , but nope they did not, with you I did not lose as much, but lose I did.


Jon you have to have something that works and people can use, the last guy may have that, but as he stated for me , after a year of trying it, maybe not, but for some people, unlike your situation, some people using his program make money, quite a few I guess, but I could not for some reason, and maybe unlike you who never tried teaching your stuff, he at least tries to teach us users, and some get it , most don't, what are the numbers with you, I will think very little, but I'm not abosulte on that, just from what I experienced when I tried your service, very poor personal service and even worse teaching users how to use it properly, does the term Reboard mean anything , JON?

Let me stop here , Okay,

As listening to someone say I can not win, yes Jon I did not listen and do not like it, as I try each day to become a winner and will eventually, you can count on that, so no I do not listen.

Sorry for those that thought this was about the Horse , Rags to Riches


Paqtrick

[jonnielu]

Well, I won't hold my breath.

jdl

[ryesteve]

For some reason, I get the feeling that the 14% so far who've said, "yeah, it's very easy", just said that to piss you off even further.

Anyway, I'm not even sure exactly what you're asking... the reasonable question would be "can one make a living income on horses", but that's not how your question is coming out. You still seem obsessed with "the life-changing score". I'm pretty sure I told you this once before, but I'll say it again... if that's what you're looking for, you're better off buying lottery tickets. You don't seem to realize that a serious bettor (as opposed to a tourist betting their phone number) who hits a $58k pick-whatever, probably had to tear up at least $50k in losing tickets leading up to that hit.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Very hard to make a living on the betting side, data side, or the selections side. Definitely not something someone who is in serious need of money should try doing. Definitely not something one can expect to get rich doing. Sustaining oneself doing something they enjoy, perhaps, but only after a lot of practice, hard work and fault-correcting (a never ending process.) Patience! patience! patience! Dig! dig! dig! fail, review & learn! fail, review & learn! fail, review & learn! Still no guarantees, and always best to have money coming in from other sources, helps if they are racing related, and lots of experience, esp. proven experience among contacts will help in that regard. All of this takes lots of time, and a lot longer than a year, and unlikely to earn as much as one would with a normal job.

[Bison]

I've done well, but mostly due to a few very large scores.
Most of the time though, it's just trading money back and forth.
Patience is my mainstay. I've endured some very long losing streaks.

[jonnielu]

For some reason, I get the feeling that the 14% so far who've said, "yeah, it's very easy", just said that to piss you off even further.

Anyway, I'm not even sure exactly what you're asking... the reasonable question would be "can one make a living income on horses", but that's not how your question is coming out. You still seem obsessed with "the life-changing score". I'm pretty sure I told you this once before, but I'll say it again... if that's what you're looking for, you're better off buying lottery tickets. You don't seem to realize that a serious bettor (as opposed to a tourist betting their phone number) who hits a $58k pick-whatever, probably had to tear up at least $50k in losing tickets leading up to that hit.

I said it is very easy because it is. On the rest, I actually agree with Ryesteve.

jdl

[Sid]

What -- and give up show business?

[thelyingthief]

well, gee.

the only person i have ever found responsible for my failures was myself.

tlt-

[Tom]

I'm keeping my day job.



I hope! :eek:

[applebee]

well, gee.

the only person i have ever found responsible for my failures was myself.

tlt-

Finally someone puts the whole problem into one sentence.
Best of luck to you Patrick.

[PaceAdvantage]

I pretty much agree 100% with applebee and TLT (but then again, why would anyone trust a lying thief? :lol: )

[newtothegame]

hmmm....
One thing I think I notice is that you are trying to "buy" someone elses programs or selections. I think your gonna be hard pressed winning that way. I am sure you know this Patrick...but it takes ALOT of work...YOUR work. If someone did have that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, why would they sell it? I think that is what makes this game so fun for me....trying to beat the other guy/gal. And I am proud to say that I FINALLY hit a tri about a month ago at evangeline. You want to know what was so special about that tri? It cost me sixty to play...
and paid FORTY :bang: :bang: .
but for me, it wasnt about the amount paid as the chalk didnt win and I DIDNT have the chalk winning. I did SOMETHING RIGHT. Too bad the second favorite won with the chalk second lol.
But back to the point at hand, alot of people here and the other site your visit pace n cap will give you alot of good information. But maybe your trying to take too much at once??? For me, I have to look at ONE horse at a time in the form and so on and so on. If i try jumping around, I get lost. The same holds true for this game and the LOADS of info. Become good at ONE then progress.

[ryesteve]

I notice is that you are trying to "buy" someone elses programs or selections. I think your gonna be hard pressed winning that way. I am sure you know this Patrick...but it takes ALOT of work...YOUR work.Once again, the misconception that people who use software aren't doing a ton of their own work.

[newtothegame]

Once again, the misconception that people who use software aren't doing a ton of their own work.

I never once said that people dont put a ton of work in. Please dont misquote me. I can name a few that put alot into their software....CMOORE...JUANEPSTEIN......VALU,.....an d the list goes on and on....
What I am saying is it takes worok on whoever buys the programs.
This is from Patricks quote:


Jon you have to have something that works and people can use, the last guy may have that, but as he stated for me , after a year of trying it, maybe not, but for some people, unlike your situation, some people using his program make money, quite a few I guess, but I could not for some reason, and maybe unlike you who never tried teaching your stuff, he at least tries to teach us users, and some get it , most don't, what are the numbers with you, I will think very little, but I'm not abosulte on that, just from what I experienced when I tried your service, very poor personal service and even worse teaching users how to use it properly, does the term Reboard mean anything , JON?


If I am reading this correctly, it appears he is outing Jon for not TEACHING him how to use it. As I understand most software, there are MANY MANY variables depending on your inputs. Now if its a gliche in how to get the program running on windows or some technical question then i think Jon has a responsibility to the purchaser...but I dont read that as the case.

[Buckeye]

Best thing you can do is have an opinion and value that (back it up) against your adversary's (everybody else).

Nobody has this "figured out" or everything would pay $2.10. Your chance of getting rich betting horses (while low) are higher than the Lottery. Do your work impeccably and back it up. If you're good enough, and that's the question, you could do well. No software writer, no author, no tipster, NOBODY but can make you what you are. Best of luck. In a way their common disclaimer of "we are here to assist you" is correct. With few exceptions they can't do it themselves but you can (again) if you're good enough. Keep an open mind but try and be that person you are. It might work!

[Red Knave]

Basically for the same reason you couldn't, Jon, they could not pick winners, but kept taking your money...You have nailed the answer (as has already been mentioned above) but don't seem to want to accept it.
If you keep expecting them to provide you with winners you will never win. You must get the winners by figuring out how to do so on your own. And then add all the other stuff like finding value, money management, handling emotions etc.

[Track Collector]

Rags to Riches, in the game of horse racing, is it still done today?



Recently I decided to make an attempt to play the horses for profit, not really sure how far it could go, and relied on others to help me make my decision, and this board played a big part too. I decided to find a tool to help me pick winners, a software program, one that was highly touted as one of the best, but it was a tool, meaning that I needed to learn how to use the tool , in order to make it work right, which is pick winning horses, thus helping me to profit, well that was a mistake, and losta money later, I am told that the this tool may not work for me, after a year of learning and investing time and money, for me a lot of money, but that is not the issue here, as with every tool in this game one can waste money trying to beat this game, and beating it means to profit, your ROI, must show positive results, and show them for long period of time, like a year or a meet, as they say in this biz, which many believe can not be done, and I still do not believe those people.

Patrick

Patrick,

I hear your flustration and pain at wanting to be successful at handicapping, specifically to the level of earning a significant income.

Taking the journey to become a successful player may take years, but it is possible. Also know that what makes one successful one year may not work in future years. One constantly needs to review and adapt to meet the ever-changing conditions.

While not intended to be comprehensive, IMO, here are some of the things one needs to be successful:
(a) A good selection criteria --> This can commercial or home-grown software and/or methodology.
(b) A way to model or study the outputs of your selection criteria --> If you do not do this, how do you know if your selections can be profitable in the long run? Also, it points out your areas of weakness WHERE YOU SHOULD NOT BE BETTING!
(c) A structured way a wagering, or method of money management. Perhaps it is a percent of bankroll, but making a wager size based on a gut feeling is a sure way run your bankroll to zero.
(d) A rebate --> Not manditory, but certainly VERY helpful.

Please also consider the following truth, which is cruel but inherent to the challenge of handicapping. Many folks may be willing to assist others in their handicapping journey, but do not expect them to freely give away the few KEY nuggets that make them successful and give them an advantage over the crowd. This is, after all, a zero sum game where a very few can hope to be profitable at the expense of the remaining players. Now if the takeouts were reduced signicantly (say to half the levels of today), this game could have a lot more winners. :jump:

I hope this was helpful. Best Regards, Track Collector

[ryesteve]

Please dont misquote meI quoted exactly what you said. If you tell someone that they'd be hard-pressed to win by buying someone's software because it takes your OWN work, I'm not sure how else to interpret that, other than as an assumption that software users are taking a dead-end shortcut trying to piggyback on the someone else's work. But if that's not what you meant, sorry 'bout that.

As for patrick's problems with jonnielu, geez, just browse around the board and tell me you're shocked...

[newtothegame]

I quoted exactly what you said. If you tell someone that they'd be hard-pressed to win by buying someone's software because it takes your OWN work, I'm not sure how else to interpret that, other than as an assumption that software users are taking a dead-end shortcut trying to piggyback on the someone else's work. But if that's not what you meant, sorry 'bout that.

As for patrick's problems with jonnielu, geez, just browse around the board and tell me you're shocked...

NO, again you did NOT quote EXACTLY what I said.....in case your having problems, let me repost it here......


http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/image.php?u=7858&dateline=1210293459 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=7858)

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 343
vCash: 100


hmmm....
One thing I think I notice is that you are trying to "buy" someone elses programs or selections. I think your gonna be hard pressed winning that way. I am sure you know this Patrick...but it takes ALOT of work...YOUR work. If someone did have that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, why would they sell it? I think that is what makes this game so fun for me....trying to beat the other guy/gal. And I am proud to say that I FINALLY hit a tri about a month ago at evangeline. You want to know what was so special about that tri? It cost me sixty to play...
and paid FORTY :bang: :bang: .
but for me, it wasnt about the amount paid as the chalk didnt win and I DIDNT have the chalk winning. I did SOMETHING RIGHT. Too bad the second favorite won with the chalk second lol.
But back to the point at hand, alot of people here and the other site your visit pace n cap will give you alot of good information. But maybe your trying to take too much at once??? For me, I have to look at ONE horse at a time in the form and so on and so on. If i try jumping around, I get lost. The same holds true for this game and the LOADS of info. Become good at ONE then progress.


and this is what you posted based on the above.....

Once again, the misconception that people who use software aren't doing a ton of their own work.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/report.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/report.php?p=705698)
show me ANYWHERE in my original post that I say "people who use software aren't doing a ton of their own work"
?????

So I go back to my original post to YOU.......

Please dont misquote me.

[pktruckdriver]

Thank you guys for all the responses, both positive and negative.

I have cooled down a bit, or sobered for you drinkers out there and now can see what I wrote , and will try to explain to you all what I meant here.

I am a handicapper for 20+ years, not that long I know, but I enjoyed my beginnings with this game, the Form, a Cigarette and a pot of coffee, and yes the red pen and blue pen and black, and I would look for the remarks section, and see if there was trouble in the last few races, and then class and speed, at this time pace did not make the race for me, but that was okay, I had other tidbits to look for, especially if a horse ever won at the distance and level before, and if so why was he back at this level again, and could he win again?

There are many things I looked for, but you get the picture, and this process took a few hours to do a track, and I did Florida and California tracks mostly, and then at Night I just listened to the annoucers at MTR, as they were pretty good, and I combined their picks into an !.00 exacta play for 6.00 ( a,b/a,b,c,d) and if I had a bad day would normally re-coupe the days lossess this way , but not always, and my average was pretty good at staying even or winning dinner and a bankroll to play for the weekend, and then when th wknd was done, go pay a few bills with my winnings, losing outright, very little as breaking even was not that hard for me, and more astonishing was that I could actually make a 200 or more a weekend, just playing dollar exacta's and tri's, P3's and the old DD too, rarely a win bet ever made by me.

So with this weekend guy having a so so luck with the game I was falsely led to believe that with some hard work and true study and help with some great software that could help you crunch the numbers better and faster than you could, that it would be possible to beat this game, but time had to be committed to it, and still I had been playing with emotion, not what pro's do, but I did, and still do, I still wager poorly, as there are more efficient ways to wager my bets, I am sure, but Passion, and emotion take over and I lose control and get caught up in the fun and losing too. A weekend player does not make a pro, but I thought computers would make it easier and faster, and for some they, but me not yet, but maybe someday, as I am not giving up, but what has been offered to me so far has failed to produce any positive profits, and I am now moving on to the next tool for me to try out, I used workout report from SO Cal, once they helped me in picking pick 3 tickets, normally going 3x3x3 for 27.00, but when they starting paying only 22.00 for a winning ticket I quit, instead of waiting for it to pay bigger again, which it always does, I was impatient, and did not wait, play where fav's were more prone to winning than losing, so I figured, no problem, back to studying reak hard and finding cheaper ways to play the exotics, by finding solid singles, thus lowering the wager cost, and that is where I screwed up twice , back to back, and got tools that did not work for me, and yes I took a year of ahrd work to try to learn this software, but it was too hard for me, too comlicated for me and nevr did fiind what I was looking for exacta plays and single's with value for pick 3 and pick 4's, and thus allowing me to spread deeper in the maiden races in the sequences, as those normally offered the value races for the Pick3 or 4's, so a bet like this 1x5x1x8 for 40.00 , and 1x2x7 for 14.00 , but finding the value there and more importantly finding the positive single with value, this has still eluded me, as the tools I used could nt help me find what I was looking for, so I still look and will maybe go back to the form, but am pressed for time to work another job, and still wish the computer could help me win, saving me time and lotsa work number crunching and looking for patterns and things, but hoping the program I had could do it all for me in miliseconds or some such thing, where I would take hours thew old fashinoned DRF way, does this make sense now, and yes work was invloved, always has been, but saving time is also important too.

I also used pick service for my weekend excursions to, they helped put me onto horses I may have overlooked, they too were not so good either, but I did have afew good streak with a couple once, but when gicen 4 horses in a 8 horses field, it is kinda hard to lose, but I still do,and did, and then the streaks came too, but atill being a small time player, not a high roller still 1.00 bets, instead of walking away with thousands , I walked away with hundreds instead, because the lower bets, and I was happy, not now I'm not.


Yes this takes a lot of work and dedication, and trust me I AM PUTTING IN MY TIME, and will continue to look for the right tool to help me accomplish this.

Trying for a shortcut, NO I AM NOT LOOKING FOR THAT, I have no problem working before the races the day of, or night before,

Gotta run, be back to fiinish

patrick

[ryesteve]

show me ANYWHERE in my original post that I say "people who use software aren't doing a ton of their own work"
?????

So I go back to my original post to YOU.......

Please dont misquote me.
You're confusing a quote with an interpretation. I quoted you accurately, and apparently misinterpreted your meaning. But I still don't know what you meant by "you'd be hard-pressed to win buying someone else's program", while extolling the virtues of doing one's "OWN work".

[miesque]

Very hard to make a living on the betting side, data side, or the selections side. Definitely not something someone who is in serious need of money should try doing. Definitely not something one can expect to get rich doing. Sustaining oneself doing something they enjoy, perhaps, but only after a lot of practice, hard work and fault-correcting (a never ending process.) Patience! patience! patience! Dig! dig! dig! fail, review & learn! fail, review & learn! fail, review & learn! Still no guarantees, and always best to have money coming in from other sources, helps if they are racing related, and lots of experience, esp. proven experience among contacts will help in that regard. All of this takes lots of time, and a lot longer than a year, and unlikely to earn as much as one would with a normal job.

That is a very good point and I have previously stayed out of these sorts of threads because I basically disapproved of some of the messages that were being given because some the advice bordered on irresponsible in my opinion. However, I do want to make a comment to Patrick and anyone else out there looking to "make money" or "get rich quick" which they can take or leave. I am pretty sure that the best professional horseplayers in the world didn't just wake up one morning with the same handicapping acumen they have now, that takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to develop. You don't just suddenly become a succesful Professional horseplayer with that income covering all your cashflow needs. In addition, handicapping is like any sort of endeavor being it an occupation or hobby is such that some people have innate capabilities which makes success more achievable and those people have an edge and its up to them to capitalize on it and those are the ones best suited to being a professional horseplayer, if they are so inclined, and the best able to make it a profitable occupation. Handicapping is not an endeavor someone should enter if they are looking for steady, guaranteed streams of revenue and are solely reliant on that. Another item, I believe you have a much better chance of success in the long term being a professional or semi-professional horseplayer if you have a decent capital base to weather the downturns.

[thelyingthief]

:eek: so.

there's two components to this game, generally speaking. learning to bet the races, which includes all the technical stuff that preoccupies us most, the programs, the analyses, the figures, all those things that are the preconditions and procedures of winning.

and then, much harder, is learning to win.

it's a lot like learning to walk. nobody can do the falling down for you. while there are many people who can sell you a tool, teach you to use it, and then to use it correctly -- it is a brutal fact that no amount of instruction in the intricacies of the hammer and chisel will enable you to carve the Pieta. it ain't gonna happen. artistry, or setting yourself apart, is your own responsibility. and with two per cent of the players walking away with most of the money, setting yourself apart is really what it's all about. this is not your run of the mill psychology crap, here: i can't, and I don't believe anyone can provide you with a solution to this issue. there are certain experiences in which a man has only his own efforts to assist him, his own suffering, his own losses, his own individuality: in this game, no one can do it for you, it's you against the rest. the good news is, it's one helluva accomplishment.

and frankly, you may not ever make it. knowing human beings the way i do, in fact, i doubt it. :eek:

tlt-

[Cadillakin]

I saw the following quote on LottaKash's signature line.. and IMO, it is the best single sentence summation about the challenge of handicapping for profit.. It's by Mark Cramer; "Once good handicapping is achieved, the ultimate struggle takes place within the horseplayer." I've never read Cramer or many of the advanced author/players, but every time I've heard anything attributed to him, I think; "This dude knows the game."

IMO, it takes at least 10 years of diligent work to get your handicapping to a level where you CAN win.. (If you have the right stuff - as Miesque duly noted) But it is the last part of Cramer's quote that brings most players to their knees... Very few will ever master the self-discipline necessary for winning... Your weakness to play when you have no real edge will be exposed in very short order.. and your bankroll will soon disappear.

And then you will line up with all the other losers.. perhaps long on knowledge, but short on the ability to implement winning method.

[newtothegame]

You're confusing a quote with an interpretation. I quoted you accurately, and apparently misinterpreted your meaning. But I still don't know what you meant by "you'd be hard-pressed to win buying someone else's program", while extolling the virtues of doing one's "OWN work".


Ahhh, so here in lies the problem. You originally say that you quoted me "EXACTLY". Now you turn around and say that it was an INTERPRETATION. Then you go on to say that you "still don't know what....." Why not just interpret it?? Apparently you know what people think or intend to say!!!!
But, if you must know, I meant EXACTLY what I said (which was a ppost to PATRICK not STEVE). If you go back and check alot of patricks post, you will see that the gentleman has a problem with math and numbers. He also ( as he posted on another site) hasnt read in depth for about ten years. He goes on to say that He is a hard worker of which I don't doubt. But he came here asking for an opinion of the forum and personally based on what he has posted here and on other sites, I think computer programs might be a little difficult for him right now. I know that on pace and cap, the SAME thing arose as earlier in my post (and this would go for most all handicappers). LEARN ONE THING FIRST AND GET GOOD AT IT BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO MOVE ON.
Now, why I bothered even replying to YOUR (steve) follishness AFTER you EXACTLY interpreted my post (WRONGLY I might add), I don't know. Next time I won't....use your powers of intuition!

[ryesteve]

You originally say that you quoted me "EXACTLY". Now you turn around and say that it was an INTERPRETATION.No, I still say I DID quote you EXACTLY, and followed it with an interpretation that you say is not correct. And since you still can't even grasp that I never "misquoted" you, and now you're resorting to a really lame attempt at sarcasm, I'll close out this ridiculously unnecessary pissing match by just saying, "Whatever"

And Patrick, I wouldn't put any stock in an armchair analyst who's decided that you must have a problem with numbers because jonnielu's "eye charts" never made sense to you. If that's the criteria, then hell, we all must have a serious math problems.

[Cat Thief]

Patrick I suggest you read books. I would not pay for a tout sheet but there are alot of books out there on picking horses and you can get them for free at a library and they have alot of good points.

[newtothegame]

No, I still say I DID quote you EXACTLY, and followed it with an interpretation that you say is not correct. And since you still can't even grasp that I never "misquoted" you, and now you're resorting to a really lame attempt at sarcasm, I'll close out this ridiculously unnecessary pissing match by just saying, "Whatever"

And Patrick, I wouldn't put any stock in an armchair analyst who's decided that you must have a problem with numbers because jonnielu's "eye charts" never made sense to you. If that's the criteria, then hell, we all must have a serious math problems.

First off steve...you can call me armchair or "whatever" you like but the FACTS are this...YOU are the one way off base....
here, let me direct you to a few of Patricks post on paceandcap...

I would love to get started listening to something soon, and I am aware of Doc's reputation and his Pace handicapping style, but that is whrree it ends, and I could be wrong on that, but what if I staretd at the beginning, listening that is, with little reading at first, post reading and small article's 2-12 pages would be fine, but books with 100's of pages are not my strong suit, sorry but I am only be honest here.

and another:
It seems that i should read a few things 1st, am I correct, that part is hard for me, reading and comprehending fancy numbers/fractions and such, as I mentiioned, I'm a trucker, not a student of mathematics from MIT, a 4 finger typist with a broken computer, and i still stab on, and feel this may be work for me, but i may need to adjust how i learn it so I may learni it, if that makes sense, hope it did.


I could go on and on.....but the point is NOT to make Patrrick feel in ANY way INCOMPETENT. Hell Patrick, I will be the first to tell you, you are WAY smarter then me in this game. I, after several years, am still attempting to get the FORM down pat lol.
I am just suggesting to you Patrick, that maybe its best for you to learn ONE thing well...master it if you will...then move on. From all of your post, it just seems to me that you are attempting to grasp not only different numbers, but different methods (sartin etc etc) all at once. Just seems tough to me.

now back to STEVE....please know what the hell your talking about before you start QUOTING EXACTLY what you THINK I am posting. I have no problem had you ASKED what I meant. But you point blank came out on here and tried to say I was making a statement towards PEOPLE and their NOT wanting to put efforts into computer based programs. Again, NOT once did I EVER say that. But, to save space on this forum, I too will end this arguement and say thanks for your input...no matter how misguided your post were regarding me.

[jonnielu]

Makes me wonder if Patrick is burning rags on me at the other forum too. Patrick is just running hither and yon looking for someone that can tell him the secret. Which is that there is no secret, there is only the unknown, and the believed.

But, he refuses to believe that also. He prefers to believe that there is some magic formula with which to calculate winners all day long, and certainly someone will take pity on him and tell him what it is sooner or later. In the meantime, he'll simply reject anything you may have to offer if you can't deposit the proceeds of a high-five in his account for him.

Patrick could learn a lot, if he would settle on something and start learning from it. But, this is also an idea that he refuses to hear, because he believes that there is someone out there that knows the secret formula. He doesn't want to surrender any beliefs, or even put them on the back shelf for some time.

Unfortunately, another of his beliefs is that it is all so complex and complicated, so he won't give much consideration to anything that smacks of simplicity, no matter whether it works or not. Patrick has a long list of demands, and a long list of what he refuses to do, like work on paper... NAH.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Patrick I suggest you read books. I would not pay for a tout sheet but there are alot of books out there on picking horses and you can get them for free at a library and they have alot of good points.

Why wouldn't you pay for a tout sheet?

jdl

[matthewsiv]

Why wouldn't you pay for a tout sheet?

jdl

Because they are trash.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[matthewsiv]

Patrick

Unfortunately,nobody is going to give you the secret,because there is no secret.

You look at track bias' and what is winning,you look at trainer/jockey percentages,you look at work outs,pace scenario's.

You can probably narrow a race down to 3 or 4 horses and then all the work starts 45 minutes before the race.

You can often tell if a horse is fancied or not by the talk at the track and the start of the betting.

Then it is down to physically going to look at the horse and making an opinion and then following the betting until 1 or 2 minutes before the race.

If all of the above goes well,you have to hope that your jockey rides a good race and the horse feels like winning.

If you want to quit your job and work at the track,trainers are always looking for hardworking people and do not mind minimum wage and you love horses then you might enjoy it.

If you are single and want to go from track to track through the year that could be fun too.

But you are not going to get rich this way or by being a professional gambler.

[Bettowin]

Patrick,

You are a trucker. How about getting into driving for a horse transfer outfit or a stable. Would be a way to start learning from the inside out and very interesting for a horseracing fan.

[pktruckdriver]

Patrick,

You are a trucker. How about getting into driving for a horse transfer outfit or a stable. Would be a way to start learning from the inside out and very interesting for a horseracing fan.

Sir , this is something that I would be happy to do, but apparently it is not as easy as just wanting to do it, but if ever that offer was made to bring my truck and lets get started , I would jump on it, and I even have looked into selling my truck and becoming a company driver at Creech, Brookledge, Sallee, or any of the other horse carriers, and have recently called them, but they too are cutting back, and if I stop by at the right time, I may get a job if I am there at the right time, but one can not just wait, one must work, so my name is with a few of them, we'll see, maybe someday I will be driving a horse hauler.

But as to me on other website's, yes I am there, and one of them I just recently joined, But please understand that was after a year of dedicating myself to one program, not a week,or month , but a year of hard work , and for me it was too hard to grasp, and for Jon, Where are the peolple making money with your system, how come they are not sticking up for you, when I tried your system , all I asked from you was that you teach me how to read your stuff, you could not even do that, or anyone else for that matter, so lay off man, at least with the program I got I had plenty of stuff and people, including the program creator, take plenty of time to try to teach me how to use it, maybe too much, and there are people making money using it, just not me, and others here on PA also have had trouble with this program, but at least it works for some, and Jon's never did, period. So hard work is not the issue, and now I am trying a new program and will committ myself to it almost fully, as i have a few minor things I also use, but only one real program now, so as NTTG suggested I must concentrte on one at a time, and I have , even thou I post here and there, always asking this and that, but you better believe that there is nothing better than to being able to handicap a race correctly and do it often enough to make a profit, and one day I will be there, but to give up trying , and or be told I can not ever get there, now that bothers me, because I will get there and it will be thru hard work, count on that.

And if you own horse trailers and need a guy with a truck to help0 you haul those horses PM me and I am ready to go to work, and you will never regret calling me, that I promise you. Hardwork, dedication and safety, are all very important to me, I take pride in them all.

So this was not what I wanted to finish about this post, as I have very little stories about those making it in this business, not one horse owner who bought this cheap claimer and went on to make a million with him, or a former World Series winner, giving his story, or Bossman stating what got him started, instead of making it all about my work ethics, or reading ability,,,How Steve Crist or Steve Byk explain how they got involved in the horse business, which has been very good to them also, and yes they worked hard for what they got, but these stories are all inspriational to others, aaand that is what this post was to be more like, not reasons why I can't make it, But reasons why, how others did and m,aybe I could too or even you too, some good news stories, not complaining about others system's and bickering, as both were giving good advice and meaning well doing it, so lets us if we can give a few good stories of the Rags to riches, in The Horse Business, I am sure we could share a few good stories, NO????


Patrick


More to follow later

Patrick

[Cat Thief]

Quite frankly I wouldn't pay for a tout sheet because I think I know as much as these guys do. I think if you look at what the "experts" pick in the big races ... derby, preakness, breeders cup you will see they very seldom do very well and I think on any given day a good handicapper can do just as well. There is an awful lot of the unknown involved in picking horses which turns into alot of luck plus most of the programs will pick up on the favorite all the time and if you don't have a big bankroll you won't be betting the favorite.

[Dave Schwartz]

Although I do not disagree with your basic statement, the fact that they do not do well on a big racing day - a day that is obviously "out of character" for the rest of the year - should probably not be held against them.

A tout service should be measured by the long-term experience one has with the service. For some players a tout service could have value. For example, checking one's handicapping against the service's picks may lend an individual some confidence that he lacks.

Of course, the reality is that they would possibly do better if the player threw out any of their picks if they agree with the service's picks. :lol:


If I chose to put my picks out on the market - and they were profitable long-term - I would expect to collectively get back (say) half of what the picks are worth to me if I bet them with a reasonable wager of (say) $300 per race.

That is fair to me and fair to the player. But, o0n that basis, when one looks at the picks' fair value it is very limited. Suppose I am making 8 plays on a 10-race card. That means I am going to wager $2,400. If I am touting a 5% advantage, then my profit on those picks would be about $120. Therefore, fair market is about $60. If I am selling them to 10 people, then $6 per card is a reasonable price.

I say that "fair" price to me is about 1/2 the value to me if I wager because I have zero-risk.

I say that "fair" price to the customer works the way I have described because these (theoretical) 10 customers will probably wager less than my projected total of $300 each.


Of course, the bottom line is that a tout probably will not stop at 10 customers. He will oversell the picks if he possibly can. At $6 each, no serice is going to get excited about making "what's fair."


I recall an offer some years ago from a gentlemen gambler who was wagering massive money. The offer said that he would put $100 on every wager for me. In other words, I get the profit earned from a $100 win bet on each horse. That actually seems very fair. So, I would get (say) $5 per pick - if I was profitable (by 5%), he'd wager $500, and get the full rebate coming on the $500.

But now we get to the rub. If he is able to wager $400 (plus my $100) on each pick and still makes money (before rebate) then logically he would wager more and more until the bets were breaking even or slightly worse. Then, the entire rebate portion is his and I get no commission. Furthermore, I am depressed that my picks are doing so poorly. :ThmbDown:

I figured all this out ahead of time. That's why I declined.


Dave

[pktruckdriver]

Thanks Dave for your post, but it really confuses me , but I will try okay..



You are saying it is not profitable for you yourself to provide a Pick/Tout service as it will not make you money, is that , right?

Yet there are plenty of services out there making a lot of money, a few really good ones too, I know I used my fair share of them, and like you say they help you locate a horse you may have overlooked for that pick 4 play today, and you hit it for 500 or so and thank you lucky stars you paid 10-25 bucks for their help today, then other days they suck and you lose, just like you do when you do it yourself, good streaks and bad ones too, and that is okay.

I am looking for that program that would have helped me find a single or 2 in my pick3 and pick4 bets, and I still feel that is possible, and solid win bets also, as I put in a year and was unable to do so, come close but not quite there, so now I must try another product and hope it does better, and keep my chin up and hope soon enough I will find what I am looking for and things will click, but give up or quit , no I can't and won't do that, not me.


Now why does not anyone want to relate their lucky stories here, I know there are plenty of them here, and it would be nice to have a few good stories for once, no???


Patrick

[PaceAdvantage]

Yet there are plenty of services out there making a lot of moneyHow do you know this as fact?

[pktruckdriver]

How do you know this as fact?


And how do you know otherwise?

I have avoided naming certain companies will continue to do so now, but ,there are some making pretty decent money. Count on it.


Patrick

[dutchboy]

Sir , this is something that I would be happy to do, but apparently it is not as easy as just wanting to do it, but if ever that offer was made to bring my truck and lets get started , I would jump on it, and I even have looked into selling my truck and becoming a company driver at Creech, Brookledge, Sallee, or any of the other horse carriers, and have recently called them, but they too are cutting back, and if I stop by at the right time, I may get a job if I am there at the right time, but one can not just wait, one must work, so my name is with a few of them, we'll see, maybe someday I will be driving a horse hauler.

But as to me on other website's, yes I am there, and one of them I just recently joined, But please understand that was after a year of dedicating myself to one program, not a week,or month , but a year of hard work , and for me it was too hard to grasp, and for Jon, Where are the peolple making money with your system, how come they are not sticking up for you, when I tried your system , all I asked from you was that you teach me how to read your stuff, you could not even do that, or anyone else for that matter, so lay off man, at least with the program I got I had plenty of stuff and people, including the program creator, take plenty of time to try to teach me how to use it, maybe too much, and there are people making money using it, just not me, and others here on PA also have had trouble with this program, but at least it works for some, and Jon's never did, period. So hard work is not the issue, and now I am trying a new program and will committ myself to it almost fully, as i have a few minor things I also use, but only one real program now, so as NTTG suggested I must concentrte on one at a time, and I have , even thou I post here and there, always asking this and that, but you better believe that there is nothing better than to being able to handicap a race correctly and do it often enough to make a profit, and one day I will be there, but to give up trying , and or be told I can not ever get there, now that bothers me, because I will get there and it will be thru hard work, count on that.

And if you own horse trailers and need a guy with a truck to help0 you haul those horses PM me and I am ready to go to work, and you will never regret calling me, that I promise you. Hardwork, dedication and safety, are all very important to me, I take pride in them all.

So this was not what I wanted to finish about this post, as I have very little stories about those making it in this business, not one horse owner who bought this cheap claimer and went on to make a million with him, or a former World Series winner, giving his story, or Bossman stating what got him started, instead of making it all about my work ethics, or reading ability,,,How Steve Crist or Steve Byk explain how they got involved in the horse business, which has been very good to them also, and yes they worked hard for what they got, but these stories are all inspriational to others, aaand that is what this post was to be more like, not reasons why I can't make it, But reasons why, how others did and m,aybe I could too or even you too, some good news stories, not complaining about others system's and bickering, as both were giving good advice and meaning well doing it, so lets us if we can give a few good stories of the Rags to riches, in The Horse Business, I am sure we could share a few good stories, NO????


Patrick


More to follow later

Patrick

Your last paragraph talks about no owner with a cheap claimer winning a million. Do you remember John Henry? Sold for 1100 in 1976. Resold in 1977 for 2200. Both sales were at Keeneland. Later sold for 10k. Went on to earn 6.5 million.

The horse was quite a character.

[PaceAdvantage]

And how do you know otherwise?What the hell kind of answer is this? YOU'RE the one stating they're basically raking it in...I asked how you know this is true?

I'll ask again...how do you know this? (I never said they're not raking it in, because I seriously don't know...I'm asking how YOU know, since you stated they're making all this money).

From my limited knowledge of the world of handicapping software and other such endeavors, they are making a lot less money than you might think...and they have a lot LESS customers than you probably would ever dream....

[jonnielu]

I am looking for that program that would have helped me find a single or 2 in my pick3 and pick4 bets, and I still feel that is possible, and solid win bets also, as I put in a year and was unable to do so, come close but not quite there, so now I must try another product and hope it does better, and keep my chin up and hope soon enough I will find what I am looking for and things will click, but give up or quit , no I can't and won't do that, not me.

Patrick

Some men, you just can't reach.

jdl

[Dave Schwartz]

I am looking for that program that would have helped me find a single or 2 in my pick3 and pick4 bets, and I still feel that is possible, and solid win bets also, as I put in a year and was unable to do so, come close but not quite there, so now I must try another product and hope it does better, and keep my chin up and hope soon enough I will find what I am looking for and things will click, but give up or quit , no I can't and won't do that, not me.

Patrick,

Okay, now I am in for real. I am going to try one last time - this time in a public forum - to try to get through to you.


Understand this: You want to do a world-class thing. That's what being a professional horse player is, just like being a professional poker player, baseball player or golfer.

I mean no offense to you but you seem to believe that just using a program for a year is enough to make you "world class." It isn't.

First, it depends upon the quality of time you put in.

Think of it this way... I am 58 years old. I have played golf maybe 5 times in my entire life (and I was truly horrible each time). Imagine if I say, "I am determined to get on the PGA tour."

So, I get some beginner's lessons and for a year I hit golf balls on the driving range for 2 hours per day. Here is the question: "How many years will it take me to get on the PGA tour?"

Stupid question, right? Why? Because my expectation for development is unrealistic based upon just going to a driving range 14 hours per week.

"Yes," I say, but I am determined! I will not quit!"

And my golf pro/instructor, a former PGA pro, says, "Quit? You haven't even started yet."

"Well," I say, "just tell me what I need to do! I'll do anything! Just tell me."

The pro says, "There is more to the game than just driving." So, off I go practicing my putting two hours every day for the next year.

At the end of year two, I ask the pro, "How many more years will it take me to get on the PGA tour?"

He laughs and says, "You're not even close! How many rounds of golf do you play each week?"

I say, "I don't actually play, but I will certainly start. I will do whatever you tell me to do because I am going to do this thing."

So for the next year I play a round of golf every day. At the end of the year I ask again, "How much longer?"

Pro says, "You've got a long way to go. You haven't even played a single tournament!"

"Yes, but I watch a lot of tournaments on tv."

So, for year 4 - yup. You guessed it. I actually join a golf club and sign up for every local amateur tournament I can find. By the end of the year I am a 22 handicap. "How much longer I ask?"

The pro says, "Look. Do you understand that you are just not PGA material?"

I say, "What do you mean? I have spent a small fortune and a lot of time on this and now you tell me that I am not good enough? First, who are you to tell me how good I am at anything? Second, I am determined! I am not going to quit."

The pro says, "PGA professionals do not start by deciding that the are going to be professionals this year. They start with a determination to learn to play the game. They work on their complete skill set - driving, putting, irons, wedges, everything. And that includes a winning attitude which includes a certain killer instinct for winning."

"After they have become a strong amateur; after their skill set is complete, then they look for what's missing to get them to the bigs."


I respectfully submit that this is your story. Over time many people have tried to tell you that your expectations today are unrealistic. You have played for a year. Yes, I know that for you it was hard work - you just could not seem to understand things - and you really worked hard at that. You had a lot of help. I am going to guess that maybe 8 different guys - not counting me - spent at least 60-80 hours collectively tutoring, coaching, and/or teaching you. I know I spent many hours with you myself. It just didn't take.

Part of the problem is that, for whatever reason, you just could not learn HSH. I can honestly say that I have never had another client that struggled so hard with so little results.

Add to all that the underlying attitude that you have that somehow you'll just get lucky and it will change your life and we have a recipe for disaster. I understand that you need your life to change but you have no more chance - no more right - to expect to win at a professional level than I have the right to think that I have earned the right to be on the PGA tour.


I hope you take this in the spirit that it is meant. Lord knows that I have written you many emails similar to this one - usually they don't take - you just remind me how determined you are.


Get this - There is no pick service that will save you. There is no software that will save you. There is no teacher that will save you.

It is not about the program, the service or the teacher any more than a Stradivarius would allow me to pack them in at Carnegie Hall.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[jonnielu]

See, there are those points where even the most diverse of peoples, can intersect.

jdl

[jotb]

Thank you guys for all the responses, both positive and negative.

I have cooled down a bit, or sobered for you drinkers out there and now can see what I wrote , and will try to explain to you all what I meant here.

I am a handicapper for 20+ years, not that long I know, but I enjoyed my beginnings with this game, the Form, a Cigarette and a pot of coffee, and yes the red pen and blue pen and black, and I would look for the remarks section, and see if there was trouble in the last few races, and then class and speed, at this time pace did not make the race for me, but that was okay, I had other tidbits to look for, especially if a horse ever won at the distance and level before, and if so why was he back at this level again, and could he win again?

There are many things I looked for, but you get the picture, and this process took a few hours to do a track, and I did Florida and California tracks mostly, and then at Night I just listened to the annoucers at MTR, as they were pretty good, and I combined their picks into an !.00 exacta play for 6.00 ( a,b/a,b,c,d) and if I had a bad day would normally re-coupe the days lossess this way , but not always, and my average was pretty good at staying even or winning dinner and a bankroll to play for the weekend, and then when th wknd was done, go pay a few bills with my winnings, losing outright, very little as breaking even was not that hard for me, and more astonishing was that I could actually make a 200 or more a weekend, just playing dollar exacta's and tri's, P3's and the old DD too, rarely a win bet ever made by me.

So with this weekend guy having a so so luck with the game I was falsely led to believe that with some hard work and true study and help with some great software that could help you crunch the numbers better and faster than you could, that it would be possible to beat this game, but time had to be committed to it, and still I had been playing with emotion, not what pro's do, but I did, and still do, I still wager poorly, as there are more efficient ways to wager my bets, I am sure, but Passion, and emotion take over and I lose control and get caught up in the fun and losing too. A weekend player does not make a pro, but I thought computers would make it easier and faster, and for some they, but me not yet, but maybe someday, as I am not giving up, but what has been offered to me so far has failed to produce any positive profits, and I am now moving on to the next tool for me to try out, I used workout report from SO Cal, once they helped me in picking pick 3 tickets, normally going 3x3x3 for 27.00, but when they starting paying only 22.00 for a winning ticket I quit, instead of waiting for it to pay bigger again, which it always does, I was impatient, and did not wait, play where fav's were more prone to winning than losing, so I figured, no problem, back to studying reak hard and finding cheaper ways to play the exotics, by finding solid singles, thus lowering the wager cost, and that is where I screwed up twice , back to back, and got tools that did not work for me, and yes I took a year of ahrd work to try to learn this software, but it was too hard for me, too comlicated for me and nevr did fiind what I was looking for exacta plays and single's with value for pick 3 and pick 4's, and thus allowing me to spread deeper in the maiden races in the sequences, as those normally offered the value races for the Pick3 or 4's, so a bet like this 1x5x1x8 for 40.00 , and 1x2x7 for 14.00 , but finding the value there and more importantly finding the positive single with value, this has still eluded me, as the tools I used could nt help me find what I was looking for, so I still look and will maybe go back to the form, but am pressed for time to work another job, and still wish the computer could help me win, saving me time and lotsa work number crunching and looking for patterns and things, but hoping the program I had could do it all for me in miliseconds or some such thing, where I would take hours thew old fashinoned DRF way, does this make sense now, and yes work was invloved, always has been, but saving time is also important too.

I also used pick service for my weekend excursions to, they helped put me onto horses I may have overlooked, they too were not so good either, but I did have afew good streak with a couple once, but when gicen 4 horses in a 8 horses field, it is kinda hard to lose, but I still do,and did, and then the streaks came too, but atill being a small time player, not a high roller still 1.00 bets, instead of walking away with thousands , I walked away with hundreds instead, because the lower bets, and I was happy, not now I'm not.


Yes this takes a lot of work and dedication, and trust me I AM PUTTING IN MY TIME, and will continue to look for the right tool to help me accomplish this.

Trying for a shortcut, NO I AM NOT LOOKING FOR THAT, I have no problem working before the races the day of, or night before,

Gotta run, be back to fiinish

patrick

Hello Patirck:

You first need to get grounded mentally. You are all over the place. Right there you are defeated. How can you possibly be successful at this if you have all that noise in the backgroud? Your mind is racing faster than the horses run. How can you possibly do well if you are not totally focused? Stay mentally on track because without this it can't be done. Take yourself away from the game until you calm yourself down. The game is not going to stop just because you take some time to evaluate your thought process. Negative thoughts will only bring negative results. There is no quick fix here. It's a process Patrick. You can devote yourself a lifetime learning Patick and it won't ever work unless you are first sound upstairs. That's why so many people die broke from this game. To predict the outcome of a horse racing event using handicapping techniques and successfully getting it right is a gift Patrick. Appreciate the fact, you were given this gift. Having this gift is half the battle. Now, just center yourself mentally and put the rest of the pieces together. They are all over this website...

Joe

[rastajenk]

I thought when one got taken to the woodshed, it was for a private humiliation. Seems like this beatdown occurred in the middle of Main Street. Ouch!

[Dave Schwartz]

I thought when one got taken to the woodshed, it was for a private humiliation. Seems like this beatdown occurred in the middle of Main Street. Ouch!

Rasta,

If my post is part of what you are referring to, it sure wasn't meant that way.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[pktruckdriver]

I thought when one got taken to the woodshed, it was for a private humiliation. Seems like this beatdown occurred in the middle of Main Street. Ouch!

Rasta,

If my post is part of what you are referring to, it sure wasn't meant that way.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz


Beat down and walked all over, no I am not feeling too humiliated, a little, but Dave is right to a degree, maybe more than that and I am not upset with him, as he stated he and others have tried their best with me, and for some reason it did not take, and it only took a year to find that out, there is plenty more years to study, and I do have a talent inside me that says GO GO GO, and I will pursue it, and if I fail oh well, it will be 50 years from now when I notice it, as till then I will keep trying and keep doing what I need, maybe the Senior PGA Tour will take you Dave, but no I understand your point, and you made it well, really, but as you say I again refuse to quit, basically why should I, as the times go I am forced now to play very little, which allows me time to learn, and when things change in my personal life , which they will , then at that point I can be preparde to play again, till then I can play as recreational player and swing for the fences once in awhile, but do it from a better prospective and less speculation involved, otherwise I should , never mind.


Bossman, let it lie, why keep stiring up that some don't make money when they do, you and I know they do, not all of them, but what does it accomplish by steadily asking about it, those that do know who they are, and the ones don't know who they are, does that make you happier??

JOTB, thank you for the kind words, and yes mentally I need to get much more focused, absolutely, it is a big problem of mine and yes I have started to work on it too, and this may be the hardest work I've yet to do, become and stay mentally focused, but knowing I must will give me the edge I need to do so, they said Emmet Smith was too small to play Football, well I guess they were wrong, he proved them wrong, same as many others , so kepp telling me I can't , and you wonder why I do not listen, why should I, did Emmet, no.

Patrick

[PaceAdvantage]

Bossman, let it lie, why keep stiring up that some don't make money when they do, you and I know they do, not all of them, but what does it accomplish by steadily asking about it, those that do know who they are, and the ones don't know who they are, does that make you happier??Whatever....

[pktruckdriver]

Well it seems that many 65% seem to think you can go from Rags to Riches in this business , and yet very few stories from those who did it.

Instead it was all about me hitting the Big One, and or my using this service or this program and it not working for me, yet others have worked well, and newly found ones seem to do jsut fine for now, but this post was not to be about ME, it was to be about THEM, the ones who did go from Rags to Riches in this business, be a Pick 6 hit, or claiming the right Horse and never looking back, or finally writing that 1st book, or breeding that 1st foal and a year later realize what you had, or was able to fill a niche in the business you saw needing to be filled, but if you wish to debate me and my mishaps, that is fine too, but I rather here from the winners, not whiners, please



Thank you
Patrick

[newtothegame]

Well it seems that many 65% seem to think you can go from Rags to Riches in this business , and yet very few stories from those who did it.

Instead it was all about me hitting the Big One, and or my using this service or this program and it not working for me, yet others have worked well, and newly found ones seem to do jsut fine for now, but this post was not to be about ME, it was to be about THEM, the ones who did go from Rags to Riches in this business, be a Pick 6 hit, or claiming the right Horse and never looking back, or finally writing that 1st book, or breeding that 1st foal and a year later realize what you had, or was able to fill a niche in the business you saw needing to be filled, but if you wish to debate me and my mishaps, that is fine too, but I rather here from the winners, not whiners, please



Thank you
Patrick

Excuse??? Let me get this straight...if we are not on here posting our "winners" then we are whiners??? Just so I am clear on what your saying?

[pktruckdriver]

Excuse??? Let me get this straight...if we are not on here posting our "winners" then we are whiners??? Just so I am clear on what your saying?


I GIVE UP , REALLY.



PATRICK

[newtothegame]

I GIVE UP , REALLY.



PATRICK

Well your the one who called out "whiners". Patrick, alot of people from best I can tell have been very nice in my opinion to you. They afforded me the same courteous behaviors. I am sorry if you don't like my opinion here but I think you are DEAD wrong to now call them whiners. They gave you HONEST opinions of which apparently you do not agree. The only thing I can say at this point is I truly hope you find what it is your looking for....
Sincerely, Paul

[pktruckdriver]

Well your the one who called out "whiners". Patrick, alot of people from best I can tell have been very nice in my opinion to you. They afforded me the same courteous behaviors. I am sorry if you don't like my opinion here but I think you are DEAD wrong to now call them whiners. They gave you HONEST opinions of which apparently you do not agree. The only thing I can say at this point is I truly hope you find what it is your looking for....
Sincerely, Paul

I am giving up when whiners , not winners are answering a post that was not to be about me, and I take my critism well enough, and let those who bash me , bash away and take it all, I do not call them names and nor do I jump down too many throats either, am you have as so many do mis-interpret my posts to fit your agenda, your ideas, not mine, and if I don't make them clear enough, then so be it.


I really give up this post and the board too, y'all seem to be to educated for me and my little postings, I ask for stories of Rags to riches for us all to enjoy and be uplifted and see the positive in the game, instead I get bashed and bashed and bashed again, not one story for the posutive.


Did you read the original post, tell us your Rags to Riches story for us to enjoy and shoot for one day, not let us bash the trucker, I took it though, and never got one good luck story not one good news ??

great board

patrick

[jonnielu]

I am giving up when whiners , not winners are answering a post that was not to be about me, and I take my critism well enough, and let those who bash me , bash away and take it all, I do not call them names and nor do I jump down too many throats either, am you have as so many do mis-interpret my posts to fit your agenda, your ideas, not mine, and if I don't make them clear enough, then so be it.


I really give up this post and the board too, y'all seem to be to educated for me and my little postings, I ask for stories of Rags to riches for us all to enjoy and be uplifted and see the positive in the game, instead I get bashed and bashed and bashed again, not one story for the posutive.


Did you read the original post, tell us your Rags to Riches story for us to enjoy and shoot for one day, not let us bash the trucker, I took it though, and never got one good luck story not one good news ??

great board

patrick

Wow, these recent developments give me even more fabulous extensions to a fabulous idea I have been developing. It revolves around why don't we just create some good news, while we show that even the most diverse of peoples can unite for common cause and common benefit.

Do you want to hear it? Or do you quit?

jdl

[A. Pineda]

Wow, these recent developments give me even more fabulous extensions to a fabulous idea I have been developing. It revolves around why don't we just create some good news, while we show that even the most diverse of peoples can unite for common cause and common benefit.

Do you want to hear it? Or do you quit?

jdl

I was OK with the "diverse" but you lost me with "unite."

[pktruckdriver]

Wow, these recent developments give me even more fabulous extensions to a fabulous idea I have been developing. It revolves around why don't we just create some good news, while we show that even the most diverse of peoples can unite for common cause and common benefit.

Do you want to hear it? Or do you quit?

jdl

All I asked about was a few feel-good stories, how some did well to encourage others that it too may happen to you, but look where it went,
disgusting , but I guess who cares, right?

Why stick around for this bashing,

patrick

[Steve 'StatMan']

Well, of the 4 options, I chose the 2nd, as it fit the best. However, I would more realisticaly have said "Going from Rags to New and Slightly Better Rags.

Plus, the question doesn't ask that the voter themselves has done it. Or that just anyone, or everyone can do it.

Keep in mind that no one is going to write a book about becoming a successful bettor by merely using someone elses software or racing selections and nothing else, especially analysis and thought. Anyone who could be successful that way would know nothing except how to use the software.

I'm not using selection software and not claiming to be successful from a betting standpoint. I imagine those that are betting successfully and using software have learned a lot about the game and the value (pro or con) about the types of variables that their software uses, and know the game well enough without the software so that the software speeds their handicapping process and augments their game rather than prop in up.

Similarly one might learn who is a good sire by reading a book and buying updated lists, but doing that alone won't really make a person a true breeding expert - they're just good at looking up and memorizing stuff from someone else's book. To get truly better, and know how to apply it, one must go beyond that, and one will find many strong and weak points about their methods (sure, a horse may have a strong sire, but so might most of the field. What is the real difference when an A sire is 16%+ winners and a B sire is 12-15% winner, and a C is 8-11% winners? is a B just a 12% winner and practically really a C, or is he 15% and practicallay an A. Is a non-rated sire one race away from being rated an A or an F? Or...is a letter grade all by itself just a misleading bunch of crap!)

All that takes a lot of experience and far more than a year. It's more like a lifetime of searching and learning. How much one gets to apply it and work to get better at the betting aspect should determine IF one is prepared enough to have a decent chance at wagering successfully for sizeable money in the future, not even considering making it their livelihood or an reliable supplement to their current means of living.

That's why I'll say again, Learn, Learn, Learn. Test, Test, Test. Prove, Prove, Prove. Get to know others that are trying and doing it. Prove yourself not just to yourself but to others trying to do it, and get realistic feedback.

The game is for the many. The enjoyment is for the many. Success (be it betting, getting into the industry by being a pin-hooker, a breeder, owner, training, selecting, being a racing official, etc. comes, if it comes at all, to a few, who have spent the time and made the right contacts and have parlayed their money and talents and contacts), and great success only somes to a rare few.

I'm not comfortable talking too much about my own story, and while enjoyable, I wouldn't call my personal journey more than a subsistance, rags to replacment rags story. Before making a non-racing financial tragedys hit, I had some realistic hope for more in the near future, but for now that will have to be a more long term hope, while I keep reasonalbe roofs and neighbors around me, average clothes on me, and frugalize further, and do a lot more canned chili and grocery store sale ham & bread eating instead of frequent McDonalds and Wendy's runs.

As my friend Ted McClelland wrote in his book "Horseplayers, Life at the Track," "You can make a life at the track, but you can't make a living." I'll go so far as to say a rare few can make a living. But it also depends on what you call 'a living.' If you haven't read the book, you might enjoy it, and it may be an eye-opener, I'm in it as are a wide variety of race-trackers, and you'll see a warts and all look at a wide variety of people with a wide variety of success - or lack of it.

And Patrick, do feel free to PM me. Although I am quite busy and in a state of flux personally, I'll also try to tell it like it is, at least from my experiences and what I've seen.

Steve Miller, 'The Stat Man'

[Bobzilla]

Steve, I read your friend's book this past spring and thought it was great. Laughed my arse off at times. Ted is a very good writer with an amazing wit. We've all known people like many of the characters in this book over the course of our horseplaying days. That's one of the reasons I couldn't put it down once I started to read. IMO, a must read for all who love the game.

[jonnielu]

All I asked about was a few feel-good stories, how some did well to encourage others that it too may happen to you, but look where it went,
disgusting , but I guess who cares, right?

Why stick around for this bashing,

patrick

Call me names if it makes you feel better, but I believe that it does little good as an effort to support your cause. And, why shouldn't I continue to show up here? I've got nothing to hide, there may always be a few things for you to figure out, but, that is not because I've hidden anything.

I guess that after all the blather about determination, you'd rather just quit if things aren't going the way you'd like them to. That's too bad, and it isn't much of a way to learn anything.

jdl

[Warren Henry]

Patrick,

You want stories. Here you go.

If you have been around for a while, you might have heard of Gambler's Edge Computing. One of the very first to sell horse racing software tools. The very first to have a commercial software product that used a BRIS download file. If you ever bought a weekend DRF anytime between the early 80s and the late 90s, you might have seen their ads offering a free catalog. Maybe you received one of the GEC catalogs in the mail. The company mailed them out several times a year 20-30 thousand per mailing.

The guy who owned that company was a professional computer programmer and a horse player. He quit a high paying job as a computer system designer to concentrate on doing what he loved - building computer tools to help him handicap horses. He used these products in his own betting and he sold them to the public. He sold a ton of products ranging in price up to $350 - which was a lot of money in the mid 80s. He also bet large amounts of money at the track.

This guy took in a lot of money from software sales and cashed a lot of high dollar tickets. But, did he get rich?

Nope, he didn't. I happen to know this for a fact since I am that guy.

I spent an entire year - night and day developing the primary product that I sold. Had I kept working at my real job, I would have made about 50K that year, but I made Zippo - nothing.

Then I started to sell the product and started to bet seriously.

It was a great product, the trouble is that no one knew about it. So, I took out ads in the Form - another long topic. The ads were really expensive, but I got a few people interested each week. By the time I closed the business, I had about eighty thousand names on my mailing list - 5,000 actual customers. Each name cost me about $8 each in advertising cost to obtain. Do the math - 80,000 X $8 is a big number. Then, I tried to send out my catalog on a regular basis. It was my goal to make sure that everyone on my list got at least two mailings per year. Each catalog cost me about 60 cents each for printing and postage. So, 80 thousand times two times per year times 60 cents each. A lot of folks make a lot of money - my printer, the DRF, the Post Office, etc. but I didn't get to keep much. Oh, yeah, I had to hire a secretary to answer the phone and keep the office going so I had time to do software, handicap, and go out to the track (no ADWs then).

Then we had the betting part. My software did a great job of isolating contenders and projecting what a fair odds figure would be for each contender. Seemed like it should have been easy to make money hand over fist just betting the overlays. And, to a certain extent, it was. The only problem is that I am at heart a gambler. I love the thrill of gambling. I remember one 9 race card at Aksarben (oh yeah, I forgot that I had to drive 200 miles to get to the track when I first started out), I had 8 winners out of the nine races. One paid 37, one paid 17, and the others were over 8 - no chalk that day. I cleared over a thousand dollars that day from fairly small bets. The next day, I bought a Pik 6 ticket trying to capture the million dollar pool. The ticket cost me about a thousand. I didn't even come close. This was pretty typical for the way I played. When the Woodlands track opened here in my area, I had a season box. My box was right next to the minority owner of the track. One day at the end of the day, Dick said to me "the only difference between you and me is that I already own a racetrack". You get the picture.

So, I had great software which picked winners that paid good prices, but I couldn't develop the discipline to make me a winner.

I had a great business that sold a lot of product - I was reasonably well known in the computer handicapping market, but I spent most of what I took in on overhead. Basically, I was in the business of being in business.

So, in a nutshell -- I had some of the best software at the time. I had one of the highest grossing horse software businesses at that time. I devoted myself to it night and day for close to 20 years and I ended up with less money in the bank than when I started.

Would it have been possible to make a living as a player with that software - yes, but not for me. Would it have been possible to make a living owning that business? Maybe, but I didn't.

Handicapping horses is a great game. I absolutely love it. I know people who have made a living doing it (some were my customers). But, by and large, most of the people on my mailing list were looking for a "push button - get rich" product. I didn't have it. I am still searching. When/if I find it, you will never hear about it.

This is a great game. I love it. I love the people I meet as I pursue it. But will I ever get rich from it - probably not.

[matthewsiv]

Patrick,

You want stories. Here you go.

If you have been around for a while, you might have heard of Gambler's Edge Computing. One of the very first to sell horse racing software tools. The very first to have a commercial software product that used a BRIS download file. If you ever bought a weekend DRF anytime between the early 80s and the late 90s, you might have seen their ads offering a free catalog. Maybe you received one of the GEC catalogs in the mail. The company mailed them out several times a year 20-30 thousand per mailing.

The guy who owned that company was a professional computer programmer and a horse player. He quit a high paying job as a computer system designer to concentrate on doing what he loved - building computer tools to help him handicap horses. He used these products in his own betting and he sold them to the public. He sold a ton of products ranging in price up to $350 - which was a lot of money in the mid 80s. He also bet large amounts of money at the track.

This guy took in a lot of money from software sales and cashed a lot of high dollar tickets. But, did he get rich?

Nope, he didn't. I happen to know this for a fact since I am that guy.

I spent an entire year - night and day developing the primary product that I sold. Had I kept working at my real job, I would have made about 50K that year, but I made Zippo - nothing.

Then I started to sell the product and started to bet seriously.

It was a great product, the trouble is that no one knew about it. So, I took out ads in the Form - another long topic. The ads were really expensive, but I got a few people interested each week. By the time I closed the business, I had about eighty thousand names on my mailing list - 5,000 actual customers. Each name cost me about $8 each in advertising cost to obtain. Do the math - 80,000 X $8 is a big number. Then, I tried to send out my catalog on a regular basis. It was my goal to make sure that everyone on my list got at least two mailings per year. Each catalog cost me about 60 cents each for printing and postage. So, 80 thousand times two times per year times 60 cents each. A lot of folks make a lot of money - my printer, the DRF, the Post Office, etc. but I didn't get to keep much. Oh, yeah, I had to hire a secretary to answer the phone and keep the office going so I had time to do software, handicap, and go out to the track (no ADWs then).

Then we had the betting part. My software did a great job of isolating contenders and projecting what a fair odds figure would be for each contender. Seemed like it should have been easy to make money hand over fist just betting the overlays. And, to a certain extent, it was. The only problem is that I am at heart a gambler. I love the thrill of gambling. I remember one 9 race card at Aksarben (oh yeah, I forgot that I had to drive 200 miles to get to the track when I first started out), I had 8 winners out of the nine races. One paid 37, one paid 17, and the others were over 8 - no chalk that day. I cleared over a thousand dollars that day from fairly small bets. The next day, I bought a Pik 6 ticket trying to capture the million dollar pool. The ticket cost me about a thousand. I didn't even come close. This was pretty typical for the way I played. When the Woodlands track opened here in my area, I had a season box. My box was right next to the minority owner of the track. One day at the end of the day, Dick said to me "the only difference between you and me is that I already own a racetrack". You get the picture.

So, I had great software which picked winners that paid good prices, but I couldn't develop the discipline to make me a winner.

I had a great business that sold a lot of product - I was reasonably well known in the computer handicapping market, but I spent most of what I took in on overhead. Basically, I was in the business of being in business.

So, in a nutshell -- I had some of the best software at the time. I had one of the highest grossing horse software businesses at that time. I devoted myself to it night and day for close to 20 years and I ended up with less money in the bank than when I started.

Would it have been possible to make a living as a player with that software - yes, but not for me. Would it have been possible to make a living owning that business? Maybe, but I didn't.

Handicapping horses is a great game. I absolutely love it. I know people who have made a living doing it (some were my customers). But, by and large, most of the people on my mailing list were looking for a "push button - get rich" product. I didn't have it. I am still searching. When/if I find it, you will never hear about it.

This is a great game. I love it. I love the people I meet as I pursue it. But will I ever get rich from it - probably not.

Very well said.

[Donnie]

Warren--
great story! Thanks for sharing it! All the best in your future endeavors!

[magwell]

I think a lot of people here could feel your pain as far as loving "the action" its the toughest game played outdoors, but its such a great game when you make those "good scores", Ive been hooked forever..... ;)

[pktruckdriver]

This post was one of my best in actually inspiring responses that helped me tremendoulsy thru time, I hopee you also got some good from it, if so , mind sharing?

I really learned alot in this particular post, some great people came out and said some really intersting stuff.

Yes one can make it, and yes 1 lucky hit can change your life a bit, and then again you can also loss everything you got too. The latter most likely.

Reading this again was really worth it, hope you'll emjoy it again.

patrick