HANA should let TVG know that what they have done is bad for all horseplayers

[InsideThePylons-MW]

TVG has signed an exclusive with Woodbine/Mohawk and are going to be promoting them heavily in the future.

This is a horrendous precedent that will be bad for the game and bad for every horseplayer.

TVG, as usual, will be promoting......

P-6's = 25% takeout
P-4's = 25% takeout
P-3's = 26.3% takeout
Supers = 26.3% takeout

Thankfully TVG doesn't really promote trifectas at a whopping 27% takeout

While some people will say, so what, it doesn't matter. I don't bet there.....It matters a lot. It is a huge step backwards in trying to send a message that lower takeout matters and should be promoted. It takes more money out of circulation for ALL tracks now that more bettors will be exposed to these tracks for the first time and lose a % of their churn factor to the criminal takeout rates....etc.

I know the damage is already done, but since TVG has been portrayed as a supporter of HANA and all horseplayers, HANA should at least make a statement that this is bad for all horseplayers and is also bad for racing.

Obviously no statement should be made if they disagree with this.

Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.

[rrbauer]

It's interesting that you show up telling HANA what it should do but it's not worth your time to become a member. While your assessment of Betfair's opening gambit into the North American market of hosting and promoting a high-takeout venue that is being subsidized by alternative gaming is spot on; your indifference towards, or resistance to, becoming a member begs the question: Why?

[Imriledup]

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVG, being 'behind' the horseplayer isn't even a blip on their radar screen.


Nothing, to my knowledge, that TVG has ever done has been for the benefit of the player. They have guys like Nick Hines, who is a So Cal expert, giving out pick 4 'recommendations' on tracks that are 3,000 miles away? Les Onaka, a Quarter horse expert is recommending a pick 4 at a harness track? That doesn't reek of helping the player either, yet TVG does it anyway.

If anyone can tell me one thing that TVG has done for the 'player' in the history of TVG, i'd love to know about it. (not even going to mention that they charge you to BET, i believe its 25 cents per play?)

[lamboguy]

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVG, being 'behind' the horseplayer isn't even a blip on their radar screen.


Nothing, to my knowledge, that TVG has ever done has been for the benefit of the player. They have guys like Nick Hines, who is a So Cal expert, giving out pick 4 'recommendations' on tracks that are 3,000 miles away? Les Onaka, a Quarter horse expert is recommending a pick 4 at a harness track? That doesn't reek of helping the player either, yet TVG does it anyway.

If anyone can tell me one thing that TVG has done for the 'player' in the history of TVG, i'd love to know about it. (not even going to mention that they charge you to BET, i believe its 25 cents per play?)the best is when christina oliveres and nancy urey pick the harness races on lady luck!
for those that watch and listen to TVG you must take it for what it is, just entertainment. if you want ot watch a real handicapping show, watch nancy and mark during every single mountaineer card. they review every horse in every single race. they tell you how they feel the track is playing from their experience. that is very important to me while betting on the mountain. the picks come out with their analysis after thorough handicapping. they don't do 5 tracks, they do 1. tvg picks are all scripted program generated, while mark and nancy are all done by hand!

[Cangamble]

Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.
Even though you are not a member of HANA, I quoted you on my blog today.
Why you are not a member of HANA, I have no idea, since zero participation is required outside of filling out the new members form, which probably would take a quarter of the time it took you to make your original post.

[ryesteve]

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVGBut given that their business is not-so-indirectly dependent on horseplayers, it would be smart, good business if they DID care about them.

[senortout]

The interesting thing about Canadian racing(Woodbine, etc) is, last time I checked, there is no taxing of the money that Canadians win at the track!

So, maybe they have rationalized, in a fair way, their heavy takeouts on (particularly) exotic wagering?

Has anyone ever considered this when chastising them?

just wondering

[Cangamble]

The interesting thing about Canadian racing(Woodbine, etc) is, last time I checked, there is no taxing of the money that Canadians win at the track!

So, maybe they have rationalized, in a fair way, their heavy takeouts on (particularly) exotic wagering?

Has anyone ever considered this when chastising them?

just wondering
That is absolutely no excuse to have high takeouts. Do you know that Woodbine only pays 1.3% of takeout on taxes?
And besides, in the USA, most can get the withheld taxes back at tax time.
Also, we have higher tax rates on everything in Canada, and that is why the government does not tax gambling winnings.

The fact the government doesn't tax gambling winnings is no excuse for a track to charge high takeouts.

Also, many tris, and pick 3's fall below the $5000 threshold anyways.

I only see one rationale behind the high takes, and that is that Woodbine relies on their customers to be ignorant of their takeouts.

[takeout]

Exclusives SUCK!!!

[rrbauer]

And besides, in the USA, most can get the withheld taxes back at tax time.



This is tricky. In the USA you have to itemize deductions to get the full benefit of gambling losses, at least to the extent of winnings. So if you have other losses; or over-withholding situations (or extra quarterly payments), the withheld taxes could come back to you. However, to maximize that, you need to itemize so that you can deduct ALL gambling losses (up to the total of "winnings"). 65% of USA taxpayers DO NOT itemize and assuming that same percentage applies to horseplayers then there are lost opportunities for getting the withholdings back.

This scenario, take one step farther, worsens for folks who do not itemize and have "signers" that are not at the withholding threshold. Those signers are reported as income and since the player is not itemizing, there are no losses being offset against them. That is extra income and there is no withholding to cover it. Ergo, get out the checkbook on April 15!

These facts are part of the reason that just stopping withholding on large scores is not enough. They (the tracks) have to stop reporting to the extent that other gambling income is not reported (signers). Otherwise, horseplayers remain at a disadvantage.

[BillW]

Exclusives SUCK!!!

Isn't this an exclusive on the video?

[NoCal Boy]

TVG's deal with Woodbine is not exclusive as in the past TVG exclusive deals. It is similar to the exclusives TVG has with Hollywood Park and Keeneland. It is exclusive for television not wagering or streaming video.

This is wonderful for the horseplayer. If one wants to play WO or MO then that is fine and now they have an outlet. The fields are large and playable. Takeout is poor, but merely playing a track because of its lower takeout makes no sense in the abstract. The key is to find a track that you can handicap and cash tickets. If that is at a lower takeout track, then great, but if it happens to be at a higher takeout track, then so be it. The key is ROI.

My reasoned guess is the handles will increase noticeably for both Canadian tracks now. I use Youbet and I believe it is a given that wagers on these 2 Canadian tracks went up appreciably the past few days at Youbet and so did the net revenues in dollar terms on these wagers.

TVG (and HRTV) are good for racing when handled in this manner. For this they do deserve a small extra fee. The more distribution, the better for all in the industry. I also love the harness action getting more attention.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Why you are not a member of HANA, I have no ideaI believe InsideThePylons adheres to the Graucho Marx school of "I don't care to belong to a club that would accept people like me as members." :lol:

Could be worse... as he could "have a mind to join the club and beat you over the head with it." :D

Apologies, as "I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." :bang:

[menifee]

My understanding is that Woodbine is throwing in a 150k to pick 6 pools on Sun. Not a guarantee, but actually putting in a 150k cash into the pool. That's dead money.

[Cangamble]

My understanding is that Woodbine is throwing in a 150k to pick 6 pools on Sun. Not a guarantee, but actually putting in a 150k cash into the pool. That's dead money.
It is a great betting opportunity. But they are counting on the bait and switch. You handicap the pick 6 and wind up throwing money at their high take exotics as well.

[rrbauer]

It is a great betting opportunity. But they are counting on the bait and switch. You handicap the pick 6 and wind up throwing money at their high take exotics as well.

After I throw some bankroll at the P6 there's nothing left for the other stuff!

As an aside, is the $150K a net figure or will they deduct takeout from it?

[Cangamble]

After I throw some bankroll at the P6 there's nothing left for the other stuff!

As an aside, is the $150K a net figure or will they deduct takeout from it?
It is net as far as I know, but I got an advertisement for it emailed to me, and it was a lower amount, but that is due to the American US exchange I believe.
It is $150k Canadian that they are putting in.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Still no mention of this anywhere except Cangamble's blog.

It's amazing that an act so hideous to all horseplayers is just ignored by everybody.

HANA had no problem writing a blog entry about the slap in the face at the harness conference. I agree with the blog entry and was sending out emails to participants the night of the conference immediately after the article came out.

I am sure what TVG did is a million times worse for horseplayers than the harness debacle but I guess very few others agree.

[DeanT]

Would you or anyone like to write a guest blog about it? We dont get, and can not get to everything, so it is open for guest posts on subjects such as this. I was going to do something on it and a few other issues this week, but work is getting in the way.

[DeanT]

Interesting............ I got a PM with a member saying this is good for racing and might want to take a stab at blogging about it. If anyone has the opposing view, he/she would make for a good double post as a point counter point.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Interesting............ I got a PM with a member saying this is good for racing and might want to take a stab at blogging about it. If anyone has the opposing view, he/she would make for a good double post as a point counter point.

I can't compete with that view.

TVG now heavily promoting and distributing larcenous takeout Canadian tracks to a uneducated U.S. market and charging 25 cents for the priviledge to make that bet which brings the takeout on most gimmick bets to around 30%. Therefore giving the bettor almost zero chance to win and making their account get to zero much faster.

TVG has already tape delayed races from Belmont, Meadowlands, Los Alamitos and others to show Woodbine and Mohawk as priority tracks live.

Maybe I'm wrong....this could be good for the horseplayer....it could make him/her move on in a quicker timeframe to something more productive than betting horses when they realize betting on horses is a futile endeavor.

[chickenhead]

I've got $100 on ITP....

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I've got $100 on ITP....

At 30% takeout, you'll get back $140 if someone matches your bet.

[LottaKash]

[QUOTE=Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.[/QUOTE]

Inside the Pylons....

And why not ? It is free, and it only takes a few minutes to sign up....Why not add your voice to the numbers....You seem to want HANA to do some talking to TVG...Why not add your name...There is strength in numbers, and with HANA the more the membership, the stronger the voice(s) we would have, and it would make us a more compelling force to be reckoned with, and perhaps because of the weight of those numbers, we could air our voices, and have some of those changes that are needed to advance we the horseplayers, fortunes, as well as the well being of the tracks to boot....

Greed is rampant in this nation these days, and it is no different with the tracks...We must let them know that we know how greedy they have become...

Pleas sign up...otherwise, why cry here ?

best,

[turfnsport]

Pleas sign up...otherwise, why cry here ?

best,
So ITP should not bring up a very valid point here because he is not a esteemed member of HANA?

That's ridiculous.

HANA should be glad to get feedback from all horseplayers, members or not.

And it really does not get any better than this: :lol:



Maybe I'm wrong....this could be good for the horseplayer....it could make him/her move on in a quicker timeframe to something more productive than betting horses when they realize betting on horses is a futile endeavor.

[takeout]

Did I mention exclusives suck?

Never thought I’d say this but I’m losing interest in this game at an alarming rate.

[miesque]

Correct me if I am not wrong, but prior to this announcement was it not the case that Woodbine was shown on HRTV? Isn't the only thing that is really changing the channel on which Woodbine is being shown? If I am missing something, please let me know because I am under the impression this is not an exclusive from a wagering perspective since I know I can still bet on Woodbine via Twinspires. I just don't see why a simple change of channel is so horrible for horseplayers. I don't make decisions on which races or track I am going to bet because of what a talking head on either HRTV or TVG says, I pick and choose among the options based on my preferences.

[Cangamble]

Correct me if I am not wrong, but prior to this announcement was it not the case that Woodbine was shown on HRTV? Isn't the only thing that is really changing the channel on which Woodbine is being shown? If I am missing something, please let me know because I am under the impression this is not an exclusive from a wagering perspective since I know I can still bet on Woodbine via Twinspires. I just don't see why a simple change of channel is so horrible for horseplayers. I don't make decisions on which races or track I am going to bet because of what a talking head on either HRTV or TVG says, I pick and choose among the options based on my preferences.
I think the gripe comes from featuring Woodbine with its high takeouts. In other words, giving Woodbine even more preference than Belmont who have slightly lower takeouts.

[miesque]

I think the gripe comes from featuring Woodbine with its high takeouts. In other words, giving Woodbine even more preference than Belmont who have slightly lower takeouts.

I guess what I keep coming back to is that I am not going to alter the amount I wager on Woodbine just because its now on TVG. As far as preference, Belmont is on both HRTV and TVG so I would assume any slight reduction in preference on the TVG side would be offset by slightly more exposure on HRTV since its one of their bigger tracks running now. Should Woodbine have lower takeout rates, of course, but sadly they are not the only track being hyped on HRTV and TVG for which that is the case.

[chickenhead]

I think it's pretty basic -- having the most powerful media entity in racing make promoting the track with the (close enough) highest takeout in racing their top priority is not just not good but bad. It's not going to effect me directly -- but it will have an effect -- more money will be bet into the some of the worst pools in racing, and presumably less money into the pools of tracks that don't rape their customers quite so badly.

I look at PA and Canadian tracks in particular as sink holes -- they are places where handle and churn goes to die.

[DeanT]

Just my opinion on this: I am reserving a little bit of judgment with this situation until I know more about TVG's business plans. We have a meeting planned with them and would be asking many of the questions posed here and elsewhere which I hope can give us a clearer picture.

I don't know what they plan, but I can speculate. Betfair is different than the old TVG, that goes without saying. They have built their business by doing exactly the opposite of North American racing. Their current head, as well as two of his bosses back home are gamblers. They know that Youbet is aggressively after bettors, with player rewards and rebates which is a direct threat to their revenues. They also know that the higher the take, the worse things are for their business. It does take time to put a plan in motion but I am speculating that they have some idea how to tackle their competition and beat them.

They have not done a thing yet with player rewards, rebates, or even changing the 25 cent crazy fee. I would surmise they will.

So, perhaps these deals signed with Woodbine come with a plan for player rewards, set to a level of takeout. One point = 0.5% or 1% or whatever. For an exclusive track like Woodbine they would give triple points, bringing takeout down on that track, to below others. For this, an exclusive track gives them revenue through a side deal, or revenue through a better price for the signal, which can be passed on to the customer. The track receives a boost from TVG sending players there. It is the pool party on steroids. This would bring the cost of wagering down for players, and in the end is a good thing. For

On the surface this is bad for churn, no doubt about that, and deals for any type of exclusivity in any way are below preferred. However, what is on the surface is sometimes not what lies below it. I want to see their plans, because I know one thing: Betfair is not stupid.

Anyway, that is my take on this right now. it could be different later, where I am totally pissed about it, or it might be something that I would be happy with for horseplayers. We'll see.

[LottaKash]

So ITP should not bring up a very valid point here because he is not a esteemed member of HANA?

That's ridiculous.

HANA should be glad to get feedback from all horseplayers, members or not.

And it really does not get any better than this: :lol:

Turf, I don't think that what I said was so riduculous, for the same reason that when I hear all the ranting and bickering on this forum about the government and the political parties, that, I doubt most of the posters here ever care to "actually" let their elected reprsentatives know, through some means of communication, about how they are feeling about their gov't lately....So ISP wants HANA to do something, yet he doesn't want to participate as a member and add his number to the cause that he is ranting or alerting us about...

I can easily understand and share his opinion and the offering of his most welcome post....Just not the HANA should do this part, as, without his active participation...that seems a bit ridiculous to me...

I rather enjoy all the rants and such on this forum, but, without "acitve" participation in the change process....I just don't enjoythe "let the other guy do that" part...

best,

[takeout]

I look at PA and Canadian tracks in particular as sink holes -- they are places where handle and churn goes to die.Well put.

[turfnsport]

Turf, I don't think that what I said was so riduculous, for the same reason that when I hear all the ranting and bickering on this forum about the government and the political parties, that, I doubt most of the posters here ever care to "actually" let their elected reprsentatives know, through some means of communication, about how they are feeling about their gov't lately....So ISP wants HANA to do something, yet he doesn't want to participate as a member and add his number to the cause that he is ranting or alerting us about...

I can easily understand and share his opinion and the offering of his most welcome post....Just not the HANA should do this part, as, without his active participation...that seems a bit ridiculous to me...

I rather enjoy all the rants and such on this forum, but, without "acitve" participation in the change process....I just don't enjoythe "let the other guy do that" part...

best,

There are many ways to "participate in the change process" and if I was betting on ITP vs. an average HANA member on who could effect change more, my money is on ITP and I would take a very short price.

(And this coming from a guy wearing his HANA shirt today). :ThmbUp:

[miesque]

I can easily understand and share his opinion and the offering of his most welcome post....Just not the HANA should do this part, as, without his active participation...that seems a bit ridiculous to me...

I rather enjoy all the rants and such on this forum, but, without "acitve" participation in the change process....I just don't enjoythe "let the other guy do that" part...

best,

I would like to add, that while HANA is alway open to comments and feedback, please keep in mind that there is a neverending list of issues which need to be addressed and frankly items are being added a lot faster the items are taken off. So please keep this in mind when making comments and suggestions. As a result, there is somewhat of a prioritization of issues not only based on impact/importance, but on whether or not there is a solution that could be implemented and also that there is a good probability the the potential solution can and will be implemented (aka overall achieveability of goal). Now the list of priorities among different people will be different and how achieveable something is can also be subject to debate. There are also a ton of "little achieveable things" that could be done but we can't do them all, nobody can. That is why Dean recommended ITP write a blog piece on it, if someone feels very strongly about an item enough to ask HANA to do something then it would be nice for them to parlay that into something tangible that we could at the very least post on the blog.

By the way, I do agree with the PA & Canadian takeout comment of Chick's. I can count on one hand the number of Woodbine races I bet in 2008 and I only bet PA if I have material non-public information regarding an entrant.

[Cangamble]

and I only bet PA if I have material non-public information regarding an entrant.
Is it OK if I call you Martha Stewart?

[chickenhead]

Is it OK if I call you Martha Stewart?

:lol:

[miesque]

Is it OK if I call you Martha Stewart?

:lol:

Ok, That was pretty good, so good I tried and just can't think of a witty enough retort with which to counter.

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by miesque
and I only bet PA if I have material non-public information regarding an entrant.
Is it OK if I call you Martha Stewart?A friend of mine once imagined Martha and Mullins issuing a joint statement paraphrasing our forefathers: "Investment without inside information is insanity."

[InsideThePylons-MW]

So, perhaps these deals signed with Woodbine come with a plan for player rewards, set to a level of takeout. One point = 0.5% or 1% or whatever. For an exclusive track like Woodbine they would give triple points, bringing takeout down on that track, to below others. For this, an exclusive track gives them revenue through a side deal, or revenue through a better price for the signal, which can be passed on to the customer. The track receives a boost from TVG sending players there. It is the pool party on steroids. This would bring the cost of wagering down for players, and in the end is a good thing.

So what you are saying is that betting at larcenous takeout tracks and the widespread promotion of larcenous takeout tracks is good if some of the bettors get a discount? You can't be serious, can you?

[DeanT]

So what you are saying is that betting at larcenous takeout tracks and the widespread promotion of larcenous takeout tracks is good if some of the bettors get a discount? You can't be serious, can you?

I am.

If each track that is signed with a place, no matter what deal, is rebated back to the player at a higher rate than other tracks that may be shown which might have lower takeout, the effective takeout drops on the player.

It is the current system that goes on at rebaters for whales but this would bring it mainstream to all players. Right now at a place like PTC (not only for whales), the takeout is lower for Will Rogers Downs than it is at Hollywood Park when rebates are factored in, eventhough WRD has a higher rake than HOL. Bringing that to TVG would be a step in the right direction, imo, as when a player gets a lower takes, he has a better chance to win.

[Cangamble]

I am.

If each track that is signed with a place, no matter what deal, is rebated back to the player at a higher rate than other tracks that may be shown which might have lower takeout, the effective takeout drops on the player.

It is the current system that goes on at rebaters for whales but this would bring it mainstream to all players. Right now at a place like PTC (not only for whales), the takeout is lower for Will Rogers Downs than it is at Hollywood Park when rebates are factored in, eventhough WRD has a higher rake than HOL. Bringing that to TVG would be a step in the right direction, imo, as when a player gets a lower takes, he has a better chance to win.
The message here is that if a player has a better chance to win, they will spend more time handicapping and watching races, which may bring in their family members and friends into the horse racing universe which will cause an increase in horse racing's bottom line in the long run.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I am.

If each track that is signed with a place, no matter what deal, is rebated back to the player at a higher rate than other tracks that may be shown which might have lower takeout, the effective takeout drops on the player.

It is the current system that goes on at rebaters for whales but this would bring it mainstream to all players. Right now at a place like PTC (not only for whales), the takeout is lower for Will Rogers Downs than it is at Hollywood Park when rebates are factored in, eventhough WRD has a higher rake than HOL. Bringing that to TVG would be a step in the right direction, imo, as when a player gets a lower takes, he has a better chance to win.

Wow! You are serious.

Has HANA become EATHANA? Educated Aware + Thinking Horseplayers Association of North America?

What about Horseplayer Joe that goes to the simulcast facility and makes bets on Woodbine now instead of Belmont because he can go home and watch them on TVG......Is he a horseplayer?

What about Horseplayer Jane that loves to stay home on the weekends and bet races she can watch on TVG, now Woodbine, but lives in one of the many states where TVG does not do business but other ADW"s take her WDB bets.....Is she a horseplayer?

Is HANA trying to help every horseplayer or just a few?

Also does HANA have any foresight at all?

What happens a year from now when HANA talks to people in the industry about lowering takeout and the reply is...."Why do we need to lower takeout? Ontario's takeout is 5%-7% higher than ours and their handle is up 15% and ours is down 15%. We are thinking about raisning takeout, not lowering it"

The thought that anyone involved with HANA could say this is good/or could be good for horseplayers is just shocking. In fact, it's just really disappointing.

After reading this thread, I now wouldn't be shocked if a PETA leader said that the killing of animals to make fur coats is a/could be a good thing for animals.

[DeanT]

ITP,

Please, I said this: "Just my opinion on this" and ended with this: "Anyway, that is my take on this right now. it could be different later, where I am totally pissed about it, or it might be something that I would be happy with for horseplayers. We'll see."

For goodness sakes I am posting as me, reserving judgment for a later time after I think it through and do more due diligence on a serious issue. Can I not do that as a thinking human being without getting skewered?

I have worked (as an individual) for awhile chatting about these issues with horseplayers, industry folks, gamblers of other games and gvt entities like the CPMA in Canada. Yes I yelled and screamed about how crazy this business is, but after awhile I came to a conclusion that the mechanisms of this business are very hard to change, some of them almost impossible. I figured that forming opinions based on its internal framework are preferred to banging my head against the wall.

What I am looking at above is a way in which (inside this businesses fractured framework, or 2009 reality) this can be a positive for horseplayers. Is it preferred? Of course not. Lower takeout is preferred.

To lower rakes across the board at this point in time is not happening. The horsemen veto every rake cut, the gvt wants more of racings slice, not less, and the tracks will not go it alone, especially with handles off 20%.

So how do we lower takeouts at all? By doing something that jurisdictions, or ADW's can do: control their price and rebate it back.

HAW has their program, which can be up to 4% back. That's good and it includes simo players and on track players.

ADWs like PTC have rebates for almost every player, that's good, and that includes phone bettors and internet bettors.

I am looking at TVG now and thinking out loud about this issue, wondering if somehow they can lessen the blow of takeout on their customers based on this real world WOX and TVG deal. That is all I am doing.

I would love to drop takeout 10% right now with a wave of a magic wand, but that will not happen, possibly in our lifetimes. I am just looking at alternatives and options to make a bad situation better for some horseplayers. In fact, I am doing that thinking out loud. I have not even come to a conclusion on this in my own mind.

That is my foresight on this issue, namely: How do we bring the most horseplayers into the lower takeout realm in a business that is unable or unwilling to lower takeouts? This is one possible way that is at the very least workable as a starting point.

HANA's position on this is on the website in the mission statement. It is there for everyone to see. Chatting about this, me to you and others on this board, is used for me to form my opinion through honest debate of these issues as an individual horseplayer, nothing more and nothing less.

D



Wow! You are serious.

Has HANA become EATHANA? Educated Aware + Thinking Horseplayers Association of North America?

What about Horseplayer Joe that goes to the simulcast facility and makes bets on Woodbine now instead of Belmont because he can go home and watch them on TVG......Is he a horseplayer?

What about Horseplayer Jane that loves to stay home on the weekends and bet races she can watch on TVG, now Woodbine, but lives in one of the many states where TVG does not do business but other ADW"s take her WDB bets.....Is she a horseplayer?

Is HANA trying to help every horseplayer or just a few?

Also does HANA have any foresight at all?

What happens a year from now when HANA talks to people in the industry about lowering takeout and the reply is...."Why do we need to lower takeout? Ontario's takeout is 5%-7% higher than ours and their handle is up 15% and ours is down 15%. We are thinking about raisning takeout, not lowering it"

The thought that anyone involved with HANA could say this is good/or could be good for horseplayers is just shocking. In fact, it's just really disappointing.

After reading this thread, I now wouldn't be shocked if a PETA leader said that the killing of animals to make fur coats is a/could be a good thing for animals.

[miesque]

I would just like to make a comment and I am not sure whether to make it here or over in that Tbred downward spiral thread so I will do it here since this one is in the HANA section. Board of Directors at the Horseplayers Association of North America is not comprised of individuals whose ideas and preferences mimick each other. We have differing viewpoints on certain issues and this is one example of that. The problem HANA is having the last few days is someone reads what one HANA Board Member thinks that is overwhelming HANA Policy and on the basic planks we all agree but there are a lot of grey areas where we all do not necessarily agree. On the rebate/takeout issues (which is one of the underlying theme of this thread) I am a purist and think that the emphasis needs to be lower takeout at the source, not "effective takeout" which applies to those receiving rebates. I personally am of the viewpoint that everyone should equally enjoy lower takeout. I personally think that rebates are helping to cloud the issue and pursuit of lower overall takeout and my biggest beef about them is that they are increasing the amount of handle going through "high takeout tracks" such as the Pennsylvania Tracks so those with higher takeouts are not paying any price for having high takeouts whereas the lack of rebates or lower rebates would be most likely result in more "price sensitive behavior" aka eschewing the higher takeout tracks in favor of the lower ones. If anything this has the result of punishing the lower takeout tracks because they are not being fully rewarded for offering lower prices. I have an Economic background so I view the rebates as in some ways an inefficiency because its altering the way money should be flowing if this was a true open capital market system.

Thats my piece and I hope no one is offended by this.

I do want to add that I do think "player rewards" are a good thing and are no different from Frequent Flier miles, hotel points, etc.

[andymays]

In order to get any Race Track or ADW to do anything serious the number of members needs to approach 50k or more in my opinion.

When you attempt to do something big without the proper clout it hurts the next time you try. The first try has to have some serious weight behind it!

[InsideThePylons-MW]

No problem Dean.

I like you and I know we are on the same side.

I just get sick when I see a monumental step backwards for horseplayers and everyone remains silent or blind on the issue.

[DeanT]

No problem Dean.

I like you and I know we are on the same side.

I just get sick when I see a monumental step backwards for horseplayers and everyone remains silent or blind on the issue.

That we are friend. I dont think I have ever met someone who mirrors my thoughts on these issues so closely. Maybe we are both nuts, but we'll keep trying.

[Indulto]

I would just like to make a comment and I am not sure whether to make it here or over in that Tbred downward spiral thread so I will do it here since this one is in the HANA section. Board of Directors at the Horseplayers Association of North America is not comprised of individuals whose ideas and preferences mimick each other. We have differing viewpoints on certain issues and this is one example of that. The problem HANA is having the last few days is someone reads what one HANA Board Member thinks that is overwhelming HANA Policy and on the basic planks we all agree but there are a lot of grey areas where we all do not necessarily agree. On the rebate/takeout issues (which is one of the underlying theme of this thread) I am a purist and think that the emphasis needs to be lower takeout at the source, not "effective takeout" which applies to those receiving rebates. I personally am of the viewpoint that everyone should equally enjoy lower takeout. I personally think that rebates are helping to cloud the issue and pursuit of lower overall takeout and my biggest beef about them is that they are increasing the amount of handle going through "high takeout tracks" such as the Pennsylvania Tracks so those with higher takeouts are not paying any price for having high takeouts whereas the lack of rebates or lower rebates would be most likely result in more "price sensitive behavior" aka eschewing the higher takeout tracks in favor of the lower ones. If anything this has the result of punishing the lower takeout tracks because they are not being fully rewarded for offering lower prices. I have an Economic background so I view the rebates as in some ways an inefficiency because its altering the way money should be flowing if this was a true open capital market system.

Thats my piece and I hope no one is offended by this.

I do want to add that I do think "player rewards" are a good thing and are no different from Frequent Flier miles, hotel points, etc.miesque,
I'm certainly not offended by it, in fact I'd like to know that other HANA leaders besides yourself and CG endorse the concept of "equal takeout for all; directly or effectively."

I too endorse "player rewards," but only those other than SELECTIVE cash rewards based on wager volume which are "rebates" no matter how small. Rewarding repeat customer purchases like a flight, a hotel room, a box seat, an admission, use of a hand-held terminal, etc., makes sense and I see nothing ROI-impacting about bet-only vouchers to offset concession purchases and fees for admission, seating, parking, etc., to encourage more frequent sales everywhere on-track.

I noticed that you're attending Hollywood Park on Gold Cup weekend. As the track owners and the Inglewood city council have all but guaranteed that will be the last Gold Cup day at HOL, why not use that situation to HANA's advantage by leading a demonstration against the broken aspects of the game responsible for HOL being closed, and making people aware that HANA is working to save racing by making it more popular and successful through its involvement. With any luck 50,000 people could pass by those signs unencumbered, and pictures would accompany press reports. There's a good chance that at least 10% of HANA members live in CA and that they might also enjoy such a day at HOL. There are still two weeks to pull it off. Maybe HOL would give vouchers to out-of-town HANA members that day.;)

The Turf Club is a nice experience, but once was enough for me. Let me know how the recruiting goes up there.

[miesque]

miesque,
I'm certainly not offended by it, in fact I'd like to know that other HANA leaders besides yourself and CG endorse the concept of "equal takeout for all; directly or effectively."

I too endorse "player rewards," but only those other than SELECTIVE cash rewards based on wager volume which are "rebates" no matter how small. Rewarding repeat customer purchases like a flight, a hotel room, a box seat, an admission, use of a hand-held terminal, etc., makes sense and I see nothing ROI-impacting about bet-only vouchers to offset concession purchases and fees for admission, seating, parking, etc., to encourage more frequent sales everywhere on-track.

I noticed that you're attending Hollywood Park on Gold Cup weekend. As the track owners and the Inglewood city council have all but guaranteed that will be the last Gold Cup day at HOL, why not use that situation to HANA's advantage by leading a demonstration against the broken aspects of the game responsible for HOL being closed, and making people aware that HANA is working to save racing by making it more popular and successful through its involvement. With any luck 50,000 people could pass by those signs unencumbered, and pictures would accompany press reports. There's a good chance that at least 10% of HANA members live in CA and that they might also enjoy such a day at HOL. There are still two weeks to pull it off. Maybe HOL would give vouchers to out-of-town HANA members that day.;)

The Turf Club is a nice experience, but once was enough for me. Let me know how the recruiting goes up there.


First of all, let me say that I appreciated your comments in support of HANA this afternoon over on the T-Bred Downward Spiral thread. I know we have had differences in opinion, but I really think that is more about how to get from Point A to Point B, rather than whether heading to Point B is a good idea. ;) A perfect example of that is the suggestion you made regarding my upcoming trip to Hollywood Park. First, demonstrating and protesting is just flat out not my style (again that is my preference and personality) and, when something is wrong or off kilter, I want to fix it in the quickest and least painful manner, which means working through the system. Yes, its boring and way too stale and corporate compared to demonstrating, but when approached with the proper level of savvy and tenacity, you have a fighting chance of being effective. Second, I know that some may find this is hard to believe, but, I am actually visiting Hollywood Park for two days and then heading three days/nights in Vegas for some serious R&R as part of my vacation. I have a job which can at times be extremely stressful and the last two years have been no picnic and have extracted at least a decade from my life span. As a result, I plan on enjoying my vacation as much as possible, I am high maintenance that way.:cool: Keep in mind that it is not in my nature to be a social butterfly, if I was not an officer of HANA I would be perfectly fine being up in the Turf Club by myself if I didn’t have any friends that happened to be at the track at the same time, just like I will be spending my time in Vegas flying solo. That said, since I am out there and I am committed to making HANA work and since feedback from members, as well as others in the industry is important and the fact that there is nothing like face to face time, I will leverage my time accordingly and try to making it a partially working vacation. As non-social as my base instincts may be, I would much rather be face to face, then communicating via Internet Forums or E-Mails, in the end its immensely more effective.

[chickenhead]

I wanted to say thanks as well Indulto, and both Theresia and Richard too -- you've each stuck up for me at one time or another in the past couple of days. I really do appreciate that.

[Indulto]

First of all, let me say that I appreciated your comments in support of HANA this afternoon over on the T-Bred Downward Spiral thread. I know we have had differences in opinion, but I really think that is more about how to get from Point A to Point B, rather than whether heading to Point B is a good idea. ;) A perfect example of that is the suggestion you made regarding my upcoming trip to Hollywood Park. First, demonstrating and protesting is just flat out not my style (again that is my preference and personality) and, when something is wrong or off kilter, I want to fix it in the quickest and least painful manner, which means working through the system. Yes, its boring and way too stale and corporate compared to demonstrating, but when approached with the proper level of savvy and tenacity, you have a fighting chance of being effective. Second, I know that some may find this is hard to believe, but, I am actually visiting Hollywood Park for two days and then heading three days/nights in Vegas for some serious R&R as part of my vacation. I have a job which can at times be extremely stressful and the last two years have been no picnic and have extracted at least a decade from my life span. As a result, I plan on enjoying my vacation as much as possible, I am high maintenance that way.:cool: Keep in mind that it is not in my nature to be a social butterfly, if I was not an officer of HANA I would be perfectly fine being up in the Turf Club by myself if I didn’t have any friends that happened to be at the track at the same time, just like I will be spending my time in Vegas flying solo. That said, since I am out there and I am committed to making HANA work and since feedback from members, as well as others in the industry is important and the fact that there is nothing like face to face time, I will leverage my time accordingly and try to making it a partially working vacation. As non-social as my base instincts may be, I would much rather be face to face, then communicating via Internet Forums or E-Mails, in the end its immensely more effective.Enjoy your vacation, miesque. Life is too short at best, and not recharging one's batteries at appropriate intervals tends to make it even shorter.

My suggestion was intended to enhance the results of what appeared to be a planned event on HANA's behalf. I appreciate your taking the time to explain what works for you and why.

Representing HANA is a worthwhile avocation, but it shouldn't be "7-24-365" as the outgoing TOC president described his job. Unfortunately, it may take a 24/7 effort or else extreme creativity with fortuitous timing on our part to undo what he and some other industry leaders have done to racing before it ceases to function altogether.

[Imriledup]

I would just like to make a comment and I am not sure whether to make it here or over in that Tbred downward spiral thread so I will do it here since this one is in the HANA section. Board of Directors at the Horseplayers Association of North America is not comprised of individuals whose ideas and preferences mimick each other. We have differing viewpoints on certain issues and this is one example of that. The problem HANA is having the last few days is someone reads what one HANA Board Member thinks that is overwhelming HANA Policy and on the basic planks we all agree but there are a lot of grey areas where we all do not necessarily agree. On the rebate/takeout issues (which is one of the underlying theme of this thread) I am a purist and think that the emphasis needs to be lower takeout at the source, not "effective takeout" which applies to those receiving rebates. I personally am of the viewpoint that everyone should equally enjoy lower takeout. I personally think that rebates are helping to cloud the issue and pursuit of lower overall takeout and my biggest beef about them is that they are increasing the amount of handle going through "high takeout tracks" such as the Pennsylvania Tracks so those with higher takeouts are not paying any price for having high takeouts whereas the lack of rebates or lower rebates would be most likely result in more "price sensitive behavior" aka eschewing the higher takeout tracks in favor of the lower ones. If anything this has the result of punishing the lower takeout tracks because they are not being fully rewarded for offering lower prices. I have an Economic background so I view the rebates as in some ways an inefficiency because its altering the way money should be flowing if this was a true open capital market system.

Thats my piece and I hope no one is offended by this.

I do want to add that I do think "player rewards" are a good thing and are no different from Frequent Flier miles, hotel points, etc.

Good post.

I think this effective lower takeout for all horseplayers can only become a reality if enough non rebated horseplayers just stop betting. Why would a track do anything different if players keep spinning the turnstiles and betting into a 20% blended takeout (less in Ca) with zero rebate?

If large volume rebated horseplayers didn't get their rebates, they stop betting. They bet 0 dollars. If all rebate shops called up their players on the phone and said "sorry guys, no more rebates. You can still play, but no rebate" Those places would get 0 dollars in handle. Well, maybe not 0, but you get the idea.

But, the players who play on track or with ADWs that don't offer rebates have to stop playing in order to get something back. Its a noble idea for you to want to give the same exact rebate to John Q who's betting a hundred bucks a day as it is for Mr Whale betting 20k per day, but the problem won't ever change if John Q keeps showing up in his beat up 1985 car with exhaust problems and holes in his sneakers betting his hundred without any rebate.

Players who won't play 1 dollar without a rebate are out there finding their own rebate and being aggressive in getting it. Other people, who don't even know rebates exist, are just plugging along with their same routine, betting live racing and not getting anything back and getting eaten alive by high takeouts.

Why should a live racetrack or an ADW (that offers 0 rebate) hand John Q Public a large rebate when John Q isn't even asking for it? That would be bad business. If enough unrebated John Qs just stop playing cold turkey, than, something might get done. There's just too many people who don't really know whats going on and that hurts the few small bankrolled players who do.

[DeanT]

That's a good post t2, imo.

A subsection of players are not overtly price sensitive (eventho internally they are) and do not shop for lower prices, or rebates. On the HANA blog, and in some of the writings on lower takeout we as a group try to put the benefit of shopping for lower prices out there. We use stories and anecdotes from the players (members) themselves at times. I am passionate about it because before rebate I was a pretty small player. I am not a super handicapper, but learned to use them to my advanatage. There are people out there much better than I, who can take a real shot at making some income in the game if they could get them, or realize the power of the lower take mantra. There are players out there for 40 years who have banged their head against the wall of 22% take. It would be nice if we can get those folks a reprieve in at least some way.

The other side for me is all the people we have lost due to massive takeouts. I have a chuckle sometimes. At a conference a couple years ago a tr4ack exec said "well when we experiment with takeout in racing we never see a bump in handles. Where are the price sensitive players?"

The answer from a fellow who was presenting there on behalf of the player, and gambler said "the majority of price sensitive players were gone years ago". I think he was right. I hope we can get them back.

[Imriledup]

That's a good post t2, imo.

A subsection of players are not overtly price sensitive (eventho internally they are) and do not shop for lower prices, or rebates. On the HANA blog, and in some of the writings on lower takeout we as a group try to put the benefit of shopping for lower prices out there. We use stories and anecdotes from the players (members) themselves at times. I am passionate about it because before rebate I was a pretty small player. I am not a super handicapper, but learned to use them to my advanatage. There are people out there much better than I, who can take a real shot at making some income in the game if they could get them, or realize the power of the lower take mantra. There are players out there for 40 years who have banged their head against the wall of 22% take. It would be nice if we can get those folks a reprieve in at least some way.

The other side for me is all the people we have lost due to massive takeouts. I have a chuckle sometimes. At a conference a couple years ago a tr4ack exec said "well when we experiment with takeout in racing we never see a bump in handles. Where are the price sensitive players?"

The answer from a fellow who was presenting there on behalf of the player, and gambler said "the majority of price sensitive players were gone years ago". I think he was right. I hope we can get them back.


The reason that this particular exec doesnt' see a bump in handles is because the takeout reductions were experiments. I remember seeing Lone Star or some track like that lower pick 3's or pick 4s to 10%. While that's wonderful and all well and all good, i didnt play Lone Star because A) its not my track and the learning curve would take too long and B) the pools are too small. Even with the takeout reduction, those pools were only getting 10k. Now, if they got 100k, we can talk, but for 10k, i'm not going to learn a new circuit and neither is anyone else.

Another thing is that people who are getting rebates already are not going to play a track with a 10 pct take because all that means is that their rebate goes down. They're getting an effective 10% rebate on all tracks all the time anyway, so lowering track takes does nothing for the biggest bettors in the country, it only helps the small fish who are betting rebateless on track.

[framarco]

TVG has again exposed its true colors by promoting Woodbine over Belmont. I was outraged by TVG its live showing of the 1st at Woodbine, while holding back the 1st at Belmont. New York is its bread and butter, and has been for its entire 10 year history. For those of you who would argue that Cali is its primary focus, kindly explain how TVG can be the "voice" of California racing when it is practically shut off for the 4 month LA Turf Club meeting?

What I'm particularly outraged about is TVG's blatant indifference towards the Saratoga meeting. As a DirecTV customer, TVG is my only outlet for television coverage (please don't get me started on HRTV on Dish since I want YES and Sunday Ticket). TVG yaps on & on as to Del Mar but has ONLY been present at Saratoga on ONE occasion. Its completely insane that they will send a crew to Ascot but cannot find the time to report from unquestionably, the most significant race meeting in the United States. I call on Betfair to change this gross oversight and change the culture at TVG. There is no question that TVG should have someone onsite at Saratoga every weekend this summer. Anything less than that will unequivocally demonstrate that Betfair is no different from its indifferent predecessors.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

TVG now promoting and showing Penn National with it's 31% trifecta, 30% superfecta and 28% P-4 takeouts.

[andymays]

TVG now promoting and showing Penn National with it's 31% trifecta, 30% superfecta and 28% P-4 takeouts.


HANA should take a stand with this stuff and shake things up!

[Imriledup]

TVG now promoting and showing Penn National with it's 31% trifecta, 30% superfecta and 28% P-4 takeouts.

Not to mention closing pools at post time and all the past posting they are doing over there.

Embarrassing job by TVG to show these garbage races.

[WinterTriangle]

I think this effective lower takeout for all horseplayers can only become a reality if enough non rebated horseplayers just stop betting.

How about just ONE DAY? (and pick a busy day)

Instead of interventions that are labor and time intensive for HANNA officers, it truly wouldn't be that difficult to plan, in advance, a "one day strike"---- where every takeout-sensitive horse player just doesn't place a wager on that day.

Seems like over the internet, getting 50K+ people to do that would be entirely within the realm of possibility?

Sort of like back in grade school where everyone dropped their pencil at the same time. But has an impact because it is *concentrated* and *brief*.

P.S. My preference is lower takeout rather than rebate. People getting interested in the sport don't necessarily burn a ton of $$$ wagering their first year or two, and most horseplayers I know are not whales, so getting a rebate is not a weekly occurance.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

What happens a year from now when HANA talks to people in the industry about lowering takeout and the reply is...."Why do we need to lower takeout? Ontario's takeout is 5%-7% higher than ours and their handle is up 15% and ours is down 15%. We are thinking about raising takeout, not lowering it"


Looking at Craig Fravel's comments about having room to be competitive and knowing that one of the TOC leaders along with a leading trainer have been using Woodbine's purses, handle, takeout rates, owners making money , etc. as a catalyst for their argument to push for the takeout increase....it's amazing how something that seems to most to be insignificant might help bring an entire state to it's knees.

[Stillriledup]

There are plenty of horseplayers who are betting at simulcast outlets in california that have absolutely no idea that Los Alamitos raised takeout. They're lined up at the SAM machines betting los al. It doesnt' dawn on them that there's a pretty good reason they shouldnt be betting into those pools. Those players are hurting the players who are very price sensitive.

This leads me to this question for any HANA member to answer.

Has HANA did anything or has plans to do anything to try and educate the 'masses' to takeout, what takeout is and what it means to THEIR bottom line? I know HANA isn't in the boycotting business, so i think it would be great to print out easy to understand flyers/phamplets and hand them out to the 'idiots' on the ground floor at Hollywood, Santa Anita, Del Mar, and other California tracks to just say NO to these takeout raises.

I guess maybe you can consider that a boycott, or you can consider it educating the people. Remember, no racetracks are educating the public. If you are a customer/potential customer of a racetrack, there is absolutely no where to go if you have a question. If a bettor decides to still make a wager at Los Al (or any other track who raised takeout) after he's educated about the dangers of high takeout (sort of like the dangers of smoking) than at least HANA can be happy to know that this particular player knew how he was being screwed by the tracks and how he was hurting his fellow horseplayer by continuing to wager into the raised-takeout pools.

[rwwupl]

Stillriledup,

We all have opinions, and so do I. We do not have to agree on all matters to be a member of the same gang.

An education process to teach about takeout would not be effective. You could spend time and money and not accomplish anything. You ask a hundred horseplayers what the takeout is and only two or three would be able to answer. That is the wrong question to answer. It also means nothing.

Takeout determines the degree of difficulty to overcome the odds and make a profit for the gambler. The lower the difficulty ,the more winners there will be. The higher the difficulty, the fewer winners there will be.

A player knows how often he wins and loses, and there are not enough winners these days because the cost of a bet in horse racing is too high. When a gambler does not win often enough, he will find something else to do.

I submit that if you asked 100 people on the backstretch where the purses come from you would get similar results.

The racing managers know this and falsely think that takeout needs to be high to be successful from their view, but they are wrong, and the red flag trend lines and all studys confirm that they are heading in the wrong direction.
The racing managers do not understand or trust the term "optimum Takeout".

The people who need the education is the racing managers, not the players.
A lot of us are working on that...but it is a big job.

Reading this thread,even though it is from last year, I have to put in 2 cents worth on rebates. All costs of a bet should be the same for everyone, no tiered takeouts, no playing favorites... and then there would be no need to rebate anyone and the cost of a bet for everyone would be lower.

Customers, in a gambling game need to know that the playing field is level, and skill will determine if they win or lose, not the size of their wallet or who they know.

I agree with Miesque(#45)and Indulto(#49).. you can not be elitist and build a fan base by treating customers differently or operate like everything is decided in a back room somewhere.

rwwupl

[exiles]

TVG has signed an exclusive with Woodbine/Mohawk and are going to be promoting them heavily in the future.

This is a horrendous precedent that will be bad for the game and bad for every horseplayer.

TVG, as usual, will be promoting......



P-6's = 25% takeout
P-4's = 25% takeout
P-3's = 26.3% takeout
Supers = 26.3% takeout

Thankfully TVG doesn't really promote trifectas at a whopping 27% takeout

While some people will say, so what, it doesn't matter. I don't bet there.....It matters a lot. It is a huge step backwards in trying to send a message that lower takeout matters and should be promoted. It takes more money out of circulation for ALL tracks now that more bettors will be exposed to these tracks for the first time and lose a % of their churn factor to the criminal takeout rates....etc.

I know the damage is already done, but since TVG has been portrayed as a supporter of HANA and all horseplayers, HANA should at least make a statement that this is bad for all horseplayers and is also bad for racing.

Obviously no statement should be made if they disagree with this.

Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.

The higher the take out the more money TVG makes. I remember years ago when KEE slashed their take out and the good folks at the MEDOWLANDS took KEE off the list of tracks you could bet when i complained they gave me some BS about they were doing everything possible to bring KEE back

[Stillriledup]

Thank you Rog,

i do agree with you that many people have no idea what takeout is or what it means.

I think the biggest problem with takeout raises and cuts is the WAY its distributed to the different areas. The big problem is that juristictions are cutting up the percentages and not the actual money. At the end of the day, the money is the stuff that gets cut up, but by delegating percentages to each and every faction before even one bet is made is why reducing takeout is so hard to pull off. If the takeout rate is twenty percent, that pie of 20 is divided up into 20 pieces, but in the end, its 100 percent of the MONEY that gets divided.

[Indulto]

There are plenty of horseplayers who are betting at simulcast outlets in california that have absolutely no idea that Los Alamitos raised takeout. They're lined up at the SAM machines betting los al. It doesnt' dawn on them that there's a pretty good reason they shouldnt be betting into those pools. Those players are hurting the players who are very price sensitive.

This leads me to this question for any HANA member to answer.

Has HANA did anything or has plans to do anything to try and educate the 'masses' to takeout, what takeout is and what it means to THEIR bottom line? I know HANA isn't in the boycotting business, so i think it would be great to print out easy to understand flyers/phamplets and hand them out to the 'idiots' on the ground floor at Hollywood, Santa Anita, Del Mar, and other California tracks to just say NO to these takeout raises.

I guess maybe you can consider that a boycott, or you can consider it educating the people. Remember, no racetracks are educating the public. If you are a customer/potential customer of a racetrack, there is absolutely no where to go if you have a question. If a bettor decides to still make a wager at Los Al (or any other track who raised takeout) after he's educated about the dangers of high takeout (sort of like the dangers of smoking) than at least HANA can be happy to know that this particular player knew how he was being screwed by the tracks and how he was hurting his fellow horseplayer by continuing to wager into the raised-takeout pools.PA has so far been free from the imposters who have lately been plaguing the HRI and Paulick forums, but not even PA’s login requirement can protect against split personalities. ;)

SRU/IRU,
How do your prior staunch defenses here of rebates restricted to those who “earned” the right to them through their ability and determination to wager large amounts for extended periods (and without concern for any negative effects on those incapable of such action) square with this sudden new concern that uneducated (and unrebated) players are “hurting” their comrades?

At least you’re consistent in your contempt for the casual player.

BTW how long do you think anyone distributing such flyers would be allowed to do so, and what do you think their chances would be of being allowed back on the premises?

[Charli125]

BTW how long do you think anyone distributing such flyers would be allowed to do so, and what do you think their chances would be of being allowed back on the premises?


That's a good point. I wasn't even allowed to hand out the standard HANA flyer at EMD.

[Indulto]

BTW how long do you think anyone distributing such flyers would be allowed to do so, and what do you think their chances would be of being allowed back on the premises?


That's a good point. I wasn't even allowed to hand out the standard HANA flyer at EMD.

Thanks for trying. As it sounds like they didn't escort you off the premises, I assume you asked for permission prior to any attempt. ;)

As far as the ground floor at HOL goes, before the first HANA track ratings were released, I never encountered anyone else who was aware of HANA's existence. Now I do, occasionally,although no members so far. They're probably all in the clubhouse :cool:

[Charli125]

Thanks for trying. As it sounds like they didn't escort you off the premises, I assume you asked for permission prior to any attempt. ;)
I did indeed request permission as I figured it was the proper thing to do. Well, I've learned my lesson. It's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!

[Indulto]

I did indeed request permission as I figured it was the proper thing to do. Well, I've learned my lesson. It's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!:lol:
Why would they want anyone to start thinking about takeout or, worse, their historic lack of respect for their customers?

The only way other than flyers likely to get READ by on-track horseplayers is the DRF and I doubt they would accept an ad mentioning specific issues even if the money were available for an entire page.

Would they even take ad an with just the HANA website name?

That's why a rally/ demonstration/march outside the track IMO is the best way to reach hese players, and get some media attention as well.

[jelly]

:lol:
Why would they want anyone to start thinking about takeout or, worse, their historic lack of respect for their customers?

The only way other than flyers likely to get READ by on-track horseplayers is the DRF and I doubt they would accept an ad mentioning specific issues even if the money were available for an entire page.

Would they even take ad an with just the HANA website name?

That's why a rally/ demonstration/march outside the track IMO is the best way to reach hese players, and get some media attention as well.



Good questions.Has anyone asked?

[Stillriledup]

PA has so far been free from the imposters who have lately been plaguing the HRI and Paulick forums, but not even PA’s login requirement can protect against split personalities. ;)

SRU/IRU,
How do your prior staunch defenses here of rebates restricted to those who “earned” the right to them through their ability and determination to wager large amounts for extended periods (and without concern for any negative effects on those incapable of such action) square with this sudden new concern that uneducated (and unrebated) players are “hurting” their comrades?

At least you’re consistent in your contempt for the casual player.

BTW how long do you think anyone distributing such flyers would be allowed to do so, and what do you think their chances would be of being allowed back on the premises?


Well, we're not talking about rebates, we're just talking about raising takeout. I don't think there are too many horseplayers who want takeout being raised. I was just wondering what HANA is doing to educate the masses.

As far as distributing flyers goes, that's up to HANA to figure out how to inform the uninformed. The more informed players the game has, the better off it will be in the long run.

[rwwupl]

Stillriledup,

We all have opinions, and so do I. We do not have to agree on all matters to be a member of the same gang.

An education process to teach about takeout would not be effective. You could spend time and money and not accomplish anything. You ask a hundred horseplayers what the takeout is and only two or three would be able to answer. That is the wrong question to answer. It also means nothing.

Takeout determines the degree of difficulty to overcome the odds and make a profit for the gambler. The lower the difficulty ,the more winners there will be. The higher the difficulty, the fewer winners there will be.

A player knows how often he wins and loses, and there are not enough winners these days because the cost of a bet in horse racing is too high. When a gambler does not win often enough, he will find something else to do.

I submit that if you asked 100 people on the backstretch where the purses come from you would get similar results.

The racing managers know this and falsely think that takeout needs to be high to be successful from their view, but they are wrong, and the red flag trend lines and all studys confirm that they are heading in the wrong direction.
The racing managers do not understand or trust the term "optimum Takeout".

The people who need the education is the racing managers, not the players.
A lot of us are working on that...but it is a big job.

Reading this thread,even though it is from last year, I have to put in 2 cents worth on rebates. All costs of a bet should be the same for everyone, no tiered takeouts, no playing favorites... and then there would be no need to rebate anyone and the cost of a bet for everyone would be lower.

Customers, in a gambling game need to know that the playing field is level, and skill will determine if they win or lose, not the size of their wallet or who they know.

I agree with Miesque(#45)and Indulto(#49).. you can not be elitist and build a fan base by treating customers differently or operate like everything is decided in a back room somewhere.

rwwupl


Let me add a relative new thought, that the racetracks are sure to oppose, but may be a game changer, in favor of lowering the take out.

Credit for the thought should go to:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74549&page=3&pp=15

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJofSD
I floated the idea recently, I think it was in one of the HANA threads, that in CA, there should be signs posted advertizing the take-out/vig rates for all wagers. It should be posted on all self service machines, within 20 feet of any wagering window and a pop-up on any online platform.

Call it the truth in wagering law.



Interesting idea. Perhaps something we should float out there to see if players are supportive of that!?
__________________
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/
Sign up for HANA here









-----------------------------------------------------------------
#32
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanT
Interesting idea. Perhaps something we should float out there to see if players are supportive of that!?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I like it.

rwwupl
-----------------------------------------------------------------



It would be like labels on a can of corn,saying how many calories you are consuming.

I think that would put an end to the foolishness of tiered takeouts and possible rebates, and the racing managers would then be compelled to "compete" in the real world as to the cost of a bet. The cost of a bet would be more consistent and LOWER, if everyone was aware of the cost.

It would put an end to the blind takeout that the racing managers hide behind now and give the public confidence that true transparency and competition has arrived in horse racing.

rwwupl

P.S. The thought has been "floated" to the CHRB and certain legislators for their thoughts. What do you think?

[Indulto]

I floated the idea recently, I think it was in one of the HANA threads, that in CA, there should be signs posted advertizing the take-out/vig rates for all wagers. It should be posted on all self service machines, within 20 feet of any wagering window and a pop-up on any online platform.

Call it the truth in wagering law.Does the concept of Legal Precedence apply here?… It would be like labels on a can of corn,saying how many calories you are consuming.

I think that would put an end to the foolishness of tiered takeouts and possible rebates, and the racing managers would then be compelled to "compete" in the real world as to the cost of a bet. The cost of a bet would be more consistent and LOWER, if everyone was aware of the cost.

It would put an end to the blind takeout that the racing managers hide behind now and give the public confidence that true transparency and competition has arrived in horse racing.

… P.S. The thought has been "floated" to the CHRB and certain legislators for their thoughts. What do you think?One man’s vice is another’s versa. Given all the smoke being blown by the horsemen and racing executives, maybe we can enlist the support of anti-smokers as well as anti-gambling forces here.;)

Seriously, though, this is a great analogy because everyone can understand -- and many can relate to -- the similar abuses that led to truth-in-lending legislation. HANA has shown its marketing expertise. Here’s a chance to support Duncker’s initiative. The DRF may even be willing to take an ad from HANA about it.

Will HANA finally accept legal tender to finance such activities?. Is the equivalent of an anonymous donations box against the law?

[rwwupl]

DJofSD has created a poll on Pace to find out what horseplayers think about it.
If it has traction, the poll will be of value and give leverage to the idea.

Please vote.

rwwupl

P.S. Under General Handicapping Discussion

[Indulto]

Well, we're not talking about rebates, we're just talking about raising takeout. I don't think there are too many horseplayers who want takeout being raised.And you know this how? Is HANA’s membership suddenly spiking in response to the shenanigans in Sacramento? I was just wondering what HANA is doing to educate the masses.I just re-checked the Mission Statement. Nothing there about “educating masses.” Your avatar suggests that enlightenment is YOUR mission. Why don’t you try going one-on-one with on-track horseplayers yourself? Are you afraid that people you refer to as “idiots” won’t greet you as their “savior?”As far as distributing flyers goes, that's up to HANA to figure out how to inform the uninformed. The more informed players the game has, the better off it will be in the long run.This is why I can’t take you seriously, xRU. First, in Mullins-like fashion you call on-track “ground-floor” players “idiots.” Then you describe them as “uninformed,” and that it’s HANA’s responsibility to overcome the obstacles placed by the opposition to informing them. Do you make that contention as a member of HANA?

[Indulto]

http://www.drf.com/news/horseplayers-disagree-californias-plan-raise-takeout-exotic-bets (http://www.drf.com/news/horseplayers-disagree-californias-plan-raise-takeout-exotic-bets)
Horseplayers disagree with California's plan to raise takeout on exotic bets
By Matt Hegarty 08/27/2010… Racetrack executives contend that the increase would funnel more money to purses, entice more owners to enter races and, ultimately, stay in the business. Horseplayers contend that the industry’s problems stem from takeout rates that are already too high compared with other gambling and that the best solution is to lower the takeout.

“They look at it like this: the handle is going down, so they need to raise the takeout to get purses up, when really the opposite is true,” said Jeff Platt, the president of Horseplayers Association of North America, which has tried to rally opposition to the legislation. “They need to lower takeout to get handle up.”

Platt said that a survey of 510 of the group’s 1,600 members indicates that takeout was the “number-one issue our members identified that keep them from betting more money than they do right now.”

… Increases to the takeout have the potential to drive bettors to out-of-state or off-shore rebate sites, operations that reward bettors with cash back based on volume of handle. The rebate programs are typically designed so that the largest bettors play against a fixed takeout, and increases to the takeout are typically refunded to the bettor.

Fravel said he believes that racetracks will try to improve their own rebate programs if the takeout increase is implemented. Currently, the program awards its largest bettors with a 3 percent rebate, far lower than the rebates offered by off-shore sites, where the biggest whales have migrated over the past decade, including those using sophisticated robotic wagering systems. …Maybe it's time to run that ad. ;)

[Stillriledup]

And you know this how? Is HANA’s membership suddenly spiking in response to the shenanigans in Sacramento? I just re-checked the Mission Statement. Nothing there about “educating masses.” Your avatar suggests that enlightenment is YOUR mission. Why don’t you try going one-on-one with on-track horseplayers yourself? Are you afraid that people you refer to as “idiots” won’t greet you as their “savior?”This is why I can’t take you seriously, xRU. First, in Mullins-like fashion you call on-track “ground-floor” players “idiots.” Then you describe them as “uninformed,” and that it’s HANA’s responsibility to overcome the obstacles placed by the opposition to informing them. Do you make that contention as a member of HANA?


Because its not my job to educate the masses.

Should i have described the idiots as informed? I just thought uninformed was better than informed, so i added the UN in front of informed to make it uninformed.

[PaceAdvantage]

I get the vibe that Indulto has some serious contempt for HANA...am I getting warm? :lol:

[Indulto]

I get the vibe that Indulto has some serious contempt for HANA...am I getting warm? :lol:And you base this "vibe" on what?

[PaceAdvantage]

And you base this "vibe" on what?Your posts. It's been obvious for quite some time. Or am I way off?

[cj]

Your posts. It's been obvious for quite some time. Or am I way off?

I don't think you are way off. I think he wanted to be a big part of HANA, but when he couldn't do so anonymously he took it personally. Rather than support what the group wants to accomplish, he tries to undermine them.

[Indulto]

Your posts. It's been obvious for quite some time. Or am I way off?Any specific post(s) in this thread that prompted that response or were you just trolling for controversy? :D

I think the word “contempt” is inaccurate. The word ”disrespect” would be also -- at least for the organization as a whole. I think the words, “disappointment” and, to some extent, “disagreement,” are more applicable in this context.I don't think you are way off. I think he wanted to be a big part of HANA, but when he couldn't do so anonymously he took it personally. Rather than support what the group wants to accomplish, he tries to undermine them.Just a couple of moderators hanging out, right?

I’m glad you piped in with your agenda, cj. The last time you did it was here:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=847064#post847064 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=847064#post847064)

Unfortunately, that thread was locked before I could respond. (Almost like a drive-by ignore placement ;) ). I think I’ll wait to see if this thread stays open before I expend much time responding directly to you.

For now, I’d like to know why -- if anonymity has no value -- did the commenter “HANAblog” decline to identify himself by name in his response to the following blog piece even though he specifically referred to his fellow board member that way?

http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/2010/08/little-tea-in-my-hana-please.html (http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/2010/08/little-tea-in-my-hana-please.html)
Tuesday, August 24, 2010
A Little Tea In My HANA Please… Then they brought on, also by telephone, HANA (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/) president Jeff Platt. This did not go particularly well. You could tell that the guy was nervous from the get go, and I found him to be alternately rambling and halting. He said that horseplayers like exchange wagering because, say, what if you have a five horse field and one horse is 4-5 and one is 7-5 and the others are 8-1, 9-1, and 11-1, then there's no possible reason to bet the race parimutuelly (huh? maybe you like the 9-1 shot?) and exchange betting presents better opportunities in those cases. To which I'd say, y'know you don't have to bet every single race and if you do, you should probably be logging on to GA instead of TVG. Then Platt was, obviously, opposed to the takeout increase because raising the takeout "never.... works.... for anyone!".......awkward silence here as Schrupp and his audience wait for him to elaborate just a little....never works for whom, for nobody? And why not? At that point, the producer probably whispered in Schrupp's ear to get rid of the guy, and that was that. It was an interview worthy of Sharron Angle.

In fact, HANA kinda reminds me a little of the Tea Party with their unwavering advocacy, and simplification, of a single issue (Small Government = Lower Takeout); as well as their ability, despite being somewhat ragged and rough around the edges, to gain mainstream exposure. I seem to see and read about HANA all over the place these days. Of course, and in my opinion, unlike the Tea Party, HANA is absolutely right in principle about their signature issue. But it's not always as simple as a bumper sticker slogan in my view. Lower takeout would not be a cure for all of racing's ills any more so than extending the Bush tax cuts for the rich will revive the economy. (Well, actually, that's wrong....let's say somewhat more so than the nonsensical idea of adding $36 billion to the deficit (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/11/AR2010081105864.html) at this point in order to cut taxes for the wealthiest 2% of the population.) Casino games and horse racing are different animals with a completely different clientele and aesthetic; I just don't see where many slot zombies would be interested in handicapping horse races even if the takeout was lowered to 5%. Conversely, how many devoted horseplayers cross over to casino games because of the lower rates?

And, as a casual horseplayer who bets the races for fun rather than as a livelihood or obsession, I personally don't accept HANA's absolute position that lower takeout always trumps quality (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/08/hana-chrb-meeting-transcript.html). I can well be willing to be price flexible if the product is worth the cost. No, I'm not interested in betting on Tioga Downs, thank you, and, though I'm aware that the takeout on certain bets in New York is certainly too high, I'll pay that price to play NYRA races over Evangeline Downs given the choice. It's a critical situation in California right now; the industry is desperate for ways to keep up with the states where the racing industries are subsidized by slots. The argument against a takeout increase is a solid one; but, in this situation, if not that, what are the alternatives?

Don't get me wrong; I surely understand that HANA represents large players to whom every percentage point makes a difference...and that, in turn, those players account for a disproportionate amount of handle. So HANA serves a crucial role in advocating for them, and are apparently doing it well. And, unlike the Tea Party, at least they don't have a lunatic fringe. I've never heard a HANA member accuse Alex Waldrop of being a Muslim or demanding to see Zenyatta's birth certificate.I posted the Hegarty article on JP because I was pleased to see it appear AFTER the TVG interview. You guys can call my criticisms of HANA policies and board members anything you want to, but I haven't seen either of you accomplishing a any more as individuals to get takeout lowered and/or the playing field leveled.

[cj]

I'm not even sure you are saying I'm wrong, but rather trying to rationalize your actions. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

I can't answer your other questions since I'm just a member, not a decision maker. I don't agree with everything HANA does for the record. However, I agree with pretty much nothing done by horsemen and track management.

[PaceAdvantage]

but I haven't seen either of you accomplishing a any more as individuals to get takeout lowered and/or the playing field leveled.Really now...that's quite the hoot.

[Indulto]

Really now...that's quite the hoot.You obviously have no desire for meaningful dialogue. How disappointing.I'm not even sure you are saying I'm wrong, but rather trying to rationalize your actions. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.From my perspective there were four phases of HANA development: 1) The Chat Room Phase, 2) the Blog Startup Phase, 3) The Power Consolidation Phase, and 4) the Corporate Phase. I was an active participant only in the first two phases. Indeed I had hoped to continue contributing my thoughts and time, both of which I had in abundance as a retiree. It was not to be. As people’s actual agendas appeared, it was clear that my own advocacy for a level playing field regardless of bankroll size was making too many others uncomfortable, and that was making me uncomfortable.

You were active in “Phase 3” and pursued the anonymity issue initiated by someone else. Since I was intentionally left out of those discussions, you know more about what went on in them than I do. Perhaps others shared your opinion/view that I wanted a “big” part, and/or that including me would be counterproductive to priorities such as extending rebates, maintaining high exotic wager minimums, etc. Whatever. I can only speculate.

At that time, only two individuals directly expressed to me their desire that I not continue anonymously. You were one of them, and perhaps you deserve credit for being open about it, but not for assuming that my subsequent expressions of disagreement and criticism were based on that rejection. My opposition has always been based on principles I sincerely believe in. To speculate otherwise and attribute it to personal grievances is not just misleading, but inappropriate as well.

What evidence do you have to support your allegation that my expressed opinions ever actually “undermined” anything HANA has attempted to accomplish; much less by intent. How can a single person have such an effect?I can't answer your other questions since I'm just a member, not a decision maker. I don't agree with everything HANA does for the record. However, I agree with pretty much nothing done by horsemen and track management.For the record, what haven’t you agreed with?

[highnote]

A friend of mine once imagined Martha and Mullins issuing a joint statement paraphrasing our forefathers: "Investment without inside information is insanity."

Sounds like something a member of our congress would say, also...

http://citizen.typepad.com/watchdog_blog/2009/03/congressional-insider-trading-how-federal-employees-can-make-big-bucks-at-our-expense-.html

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I am completely for a level playing field. But it is really a non starter. Too many jurisdictions and too many laws to overcome.

How can you have a level playing field when Arizona residents can't even bet on the internet?

I guess to make the playing field level, HANA should ask that no one be able to play over the internet.

As for rebates, there are some jurisdictions where a level playing field is impossible. Should HANA ask for the elimination of rebates?

I guess HANA could ask for both if the main goal is to have a level playing field. But it isn't the main goal, because it is as unachievable as telling the Sun to come out at night.

Eliminating rebates and/or internet betting would lead to the death of horse racing.

I have a question for California residents who believe rebates are bad, would you honestly feel that way if you lived in a rebate friendly state? Or would your priorities be a little different, and realistic like more equal drug rules, lower takeout wherever possible, consistent payout price bases, etc.

Rebates do actually help grow the game (by allowing players to last longer, and possibly win, and it also can create winners who can eventually be known which is what the sport really needs right now), and yes it is unfair that some people have to jump through hoops to get them, if they can get them at all.

And take away internet betting, and you might as well close all but two tracks in North America.

[highnote]

But given that their business is not-so-indirectly dependent on horseplayers, it would be smart, good business if they DID care about them.

Their reason for owning tvg probably has more to do with trying to please politicians and getting their betting exchange legalized in the U.S. than it does with trying to please U.S. players.

I am sure they have calculated how much it will cost them to get betting exchanges legalized. If they spend $200 million over 5 years, for example, that would probably be worth their while. I don't know what their breakeven point would be. You could probably speculate and get close and then watch their tactics to see if you are correct.

[highnote]

Before you get too happy with tvg/betfair realize that betfair built their model on 1% to 5% takeout on winning bets. Recently, they raised their takeout to 40% of winning bets. I know players who stopped betting there because it was difficult to make a profit. So think about that... high takeouts make it harder to make a profit, meaning less money is being bet. Do you think the same thing would not happen here if betting exchanges were legalized in the U.S. and betfair ran one? On the other hand, maybe betfair raised their takeout in Europe to finance their push to get exchanges legalized in the U.S.?

Just my opinion on this: I am reserving a little bit of judgment with this situation until I know more about TVG's business plans. We have a meeting planned with them and would be asking many of the questions posed here and elsewhere which I hope can give us a clearer picture.

I don't know what they plan, but I can speculate. Betfair is different than the old TVG, that goes without saying. They have built their business by doing exactly the opposite of North American racing. Their current head, as well as two of his bosses back home are gamblers. They know that Youbet is aggressively after bettors, with player rewards and rebates which is a direct threat to their revenues. They also know that the higher the take, the worse things are for their business. It does take time to put a plan in motion but I am speculating that they have some idea how to tackle their competition and beat them.

They have not done a thing yet with player rewards, rebates, or even changing the 25 cent crazy fee. I would surmise they will.

So, perhaps these deals signed with Woodbine come with a plan for player rewards, set to a level of takeout. One point = 0.5% or 1% or whatever. For an exclusive track like Woodbine they would give triple points, bringing takeout down on that track, to below others. For this, an exclusive track gives them revenue through a side deal, or revenue through a better price for the signal, which can be passed on to the customer. The track receives a boost from TVG sending players there. It is the pool party on steroids. This would bring the cost of wagering down for players, and in the end is a good thing. For

On the surface this is bad for churn, no doubt about that, and deals for any type of exclusivity in any way are below preferred. However, what is on the surface is sometimes not what lies below it. I want to see their plans, because I know one thing: Betfair is not stupid.

Anyway, that is my take on this right now. it could be different later, where I am totally pissed about it, or it might be something that I would be happy with for horseplayers. We'll see.

[highnote]

I too endorse "player rewards," but only those other than SELECTIVE cash rewards based on wager volume which are "rebates" no matter how small.

Major oil companies give cash rebates when you use their charge cards. I get a cash rebate when I shop with my AMEX card. Is that unfair to other customers who pay full price? I don't think so. I call it smart shopping. The rebate gives me an incentive to use those charge cards. The rebate gives me an incentive to bet with an adw.

Does a free airline ticket have no cash value? Isn't saving $250 on an airline ticket the same as having an extra $250 in your pocket?

As Yogi Berra said, "They give you cash, which is almost as good as money."

I think this whole rebate thing can be summed up by quoting H.G. Wells. He said, "Righteous indignation can be traced to envy."

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Before you get too happy with tvg/betfair realize that betfair built their model on 1% to 5% takeout on winning bets. Recently, they raised their takeout to 40% of winning bets. I know players who stopped betting there because it was difficult to make a profit. So think about that... high takeouts make it harder to make a profit, meaning less money is being bet. Do you think the same thing would not happen here if betting exchanges were legalized in the U.S. and betfair ran one? On the other hand, maybe betfair raised their takeout in Europe to finance their push to get exchanges legalized in the U.S.?
Raised to 40%?????
Betfair charges between 2.4 to 5% on winning bets I believe. The 40% charge is against something like monthly profits I believe for less than 1/2% of players.
I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret their new rule.

[highnote]

Raised to 40%?????
Betfair charges between 2.4 to 5% on winning bets I believe. The 40% charge is against something like monthly profits I believe for less than 1/2% of players.
I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret their new rule.


Here is a direct quote from a colleague of mine who "was" a high-volume bettor on betfair:

" Since premium charges were introduced in 2008, a high-volume trader who locks in a certain profit on every event has gone from paying 2% of that profit in commission to paying 40% of that profit in premium charges plus commission."

This gentleman has a Ph.D. in mathematics. I have no reason to believe his calculations are wrong. You may be correct that it only affects a small percentage of players. However, this player went from high volume to virtually zero volume.

[DeanT]

Here is a direct quote from a colleague of mine who "was" a high-volume bettor on betfair:

" Since premium charges were introduced in 2008, a high-volume trader who locks in a certain profit on every event has gone from paying 2% of that profit in commission to paying 40% of that profit in premium charges plus commission."

This gentleman has a Ph.D. in mathematics. I have no reason to believe his calculations are wrong. You may be correct that it only affects a small percentage of players. However, this player went from high volume to virtually zero volume.
Some folks that have been doing that have been hurt, no question Johnny.

But (and this might come as a shock because it rarely happens in racing) it was customer driven.

Some of those dudes screw up horse markets really badly. Go on and you really like a longshot who is 15-1 on the board. He is 22-1 to 60-1 at BF. Then throw up $25 at 36-1 hoping to get matched. Immediately (within a nanosecond) - $6 or $8 comes up lined up in front of you at 34-1. It is a bot or a program (who has studied trading patterns) that says "someone who puts up $45 at that price is a good handicapper, so I will line up in front of him and piggy back. It is ROI positive to be here." It happens all throughout the market and it became a real pain for people who wanted to bet the horses. They complained really loudly.

A friend of mine who plays longshots must have sent 1000 emails complaining and he stopped betting the markets too. I think what they have done is listen to the 99.5% of people who were pissed, rather than the 0.5% of people who were happy.

I do not think this move was bad business. When they brought that in there were less than a million customers, now there are 3 million.

It's a fine line to walk, but the people like your friend are going to get caught up in things with this type of trading, even tho they themselves are not doing too much wrong.

[highnote]

That is how markets are supposed to work. How do you know the $25 bet at 36-1 is not bot generated?

Some folks that have been doing that have been hurt, no question Johnny.

But (and this might come as a shock because it rarely happens in racing) it was customer driven.

Some of those dudes screw up horse markets really badly. Go on and you really like a longshot who is 15-1 on the board. He is 22-1 to 60-1 at BF. Then throw up $25 at 36-1 hoping to get matched. Immediately (within a nanosecond) - $6 or $8 comes up lined up in front of you at 34-1. It is a bot or a program (who has studied trading patterns) that says "someone who puts up $45 at that price is a good handicapper, so I will line up in front of him and piggy back. It is ROI positive to be here." It happens all throughout the market and it became a real pain for people who wanted to bet the horses. They complained really loudly.

A friend of mine who plays longshots must have sent 1000 emails complaining and he stopped betting the markets too. I think what they have done is listen to the 99.5% of people who were pissed, rather than the 0.5% of people who were happy.

I do not think this move was bad business. When they brought that in there were less than a million customers, now there are 3 million.

It's a fine line to walk, but the people like your friend are going to get caught up in things with this type of trading, even tho they themselves are not doing too much wrong.

[DeanT]

That is how markets are supposed to work. How do you know the $25 bet at 36-1 is not bot generated?

They are out there, for example: http://www.betfairbot.com/

You set it up, turn it on and then go to work or out fishing. Ok, maybe not fishing :)

For the people who play horse racing long, or short, in general take stands, they are a nuisances most times. They dont add liquidity, they just jump bids, or lays.

Not that there is anything wrong with that (like you said it is how markets work/are scalped), however, when the vast majority of your customers are not happy with them, a good company will address them.

[highnote]

Isn't this how markets are supposed to work? That bet at 34-1 is competition. How do you know the $25 bet at 36-1 is not bot generated and the 34-1 is just an individual person trying to piggyback the bot? I suppose bf could track the bets of bettors.

The issue is that the guys who are smart enough to make a profit and are driving the business and providing liquidity are penalized. Is this like the small non-rebated $2 bettors complaining because the rebate players are making money and moving the markets? Or main street complaining that whales like Goldman's move the market and write the rules by influencing congress -- kind of like bf is trying to influence the CA legislature. I'm not taking sides in all of this, but merely pointing things out.

Maybe there is more to the story and I don't really care except to the extent that betting exchanges may be operating in this country soon.

So we could be seeing a glimpse of what is to come if exchange betting is legalized in the U.S.



Some folks that have been doing that have been hurt, no question Johnny.

But (and this might come as a shock because it rarely happens in racing) it was customer driven.

Some of those dudes screw up horse markets really badly. Go on and you really like a longshot who is 15-1 on the board. He is 22-1 to 60-1 at BF. Then throw up $25 at 36-1 hoping to get matched. Immediately (within a nanosecond) - $6 or $8 comes up lined up in front of you at 34-1. It is a bot or a program (who has studied trading patterns) that says "someone who puts up $45 at that price is a good handicapper, so I will line up in front of him and piggy back. It is ROI positive to be here." It happens all throughout the market and it became a real pain for people who wanted to bet the horses. They complained really loudly.

A friend of mine who plays longshots must have sent 1000 emails complaining and he stopped betting the markets too. I think what they have done is listen to the 99.5% of people who were pissed, rather than the 0.5% of people who were happy.

I do not think this move was bad business. When they brought that in there were less than a million customers, now there are 3 million.

It's a fine line to walk, but the people like your friend are going to get caught up in things with this type of trading, even tho they themselves are not doing too much wrong.

[Charlie D]

they raised their takeout to 40% of winning bets.


I've not recieved any info on this and last time i looked at my statement ( couple of days ago) there were no 40% deductions.

[Charlie D]

Information regarding Betfair Charges can be found here


http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/

[highnote]

I've not recieved any info on this and last time i looked at my statement ( couple of days ago) there were no 40% deductions.


From the link you provided:

"Finally, a small number of customers who, in the long-term, generate very little commission compared to the amount they win will incur Premium Charges. Any customer affected by this charge will be notified in advance. Details of the Premium Charge are set out in Section 7 below. "

It sounds like you are not incurring premium charges which could mean you are not making 1000 bets per hour. This is kind of ironic -- they penalize customers for betting too often! If only U.S. racetracks and ADWs had the problem of someone making too many bets per hour!!!!!!!!! It's also ironic that players found a way to win too much without incurring fees. So what does bf do -- they make those winning customers pay more. The racing/gambling industry has never liked winners. It's OK to play their games -- just don't win too much money!

I have found that when I bet on betfair it was sometimes hard to get my price because someone would jump my price. So what? I have a price that I want to get. So I put my bet in and if I get it then that is great. If I don't then I leave my bet in and if it gets matched later then great. Sometimes this works in my favor. I get jumped. I wait and then get a better price. Sometimes the price keeps falling and I don't get matched. So what? There are other races. Now I can't bet there from the U.S. so it isn't a big deal to me.

Also, I should mention, I know some of the guys who are using bots there. Since I have an idea how their bots work, I knew how to counter them. Bots never bothered me. I can beat a machine and if I can't then I'll build a machine that can beat their machine. Just because some people can't win doesn't mean the system should be changed to make it harder for winners to win.

[Charlie D]

John

Posted that you quoted before i read other posts, then it hit me it were Premium Charge :rolleyes:

Sorry bud.

[highnote]

John

Posted that you quoted before i read other posts, then it hit me it were Premium Charge :rolleyes:

Sorry bud.


Not sure what your last post means, but that's OK.

Apology accepted -- but I don't know what you did that made you have to say you're sorry.

I'm sorry I'm not the brightest bulb in the batch -- as many here will attest. :D

[Charlie D]

John

I'll say no more as i think i've confused you enough :)

[PaceAdvantage]

You obviously have no desire for meaningful dialogue. How disappointing.How deliciously inviting of you. I can't resist swinging at this hanging curveball.

In the course of a few replies you go from accusing me of not accomplishing any more as an individual to get takeout lowered, to inadvertently (I'm sure) reminding the world that HANA, an organization with takeout reduction at the forefront of its mission, was birthed and nurtured right here on my website with my help. And it also looks to me like you forgot a phase (message board phase...that message board also being here on PaceAdvantage.com).

It would be expected that I would have no desire for meaningful dialog with you after being thrown such an astonishing insult.

[Indulto]

How deliciously inviting of you. I can't resist swinging at this hanging curveball.

In the course of a few replies you go from accusing me of not accomplishing any more as an individual to get takeout lowered, to inadvertently (I'm sure) reminding the world that HANA, an organization with takeout reduction at the forefront of its mission, was birthed and nurtured right here on my website with my help. And it also looks to me like you forgot a phase (message board phase...that message board also being here on PaceAdvantage.com).

It would be expected that I would have no desire for meaningful dialog with you after being thrown such an astonishing insult.I didn’t say you accomplished any less, but that was two years ago. Takeout is actually getting higher. What have you done lately? By the way, are you actually a member of HANA?

[DeanT]

Craig and Mike, with their support on their websites, have been a big part of the awareness of the organization with horseplayers, and a big part of sign ups and promotion.

[Indulto]

Craig and Mike, with their support on their websites, have been a big part of the awareness of the organization with horseplayers, and a big part of sign ups and promotion.Is that a "NO?"

[highnote]

Is that a "NO?"


Is that a "YES"? :D

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn’t say you accomplished any less, but that was two years ago. Takeout is actually getting higher. What have you done lately? By the way, are you actually a member of HANA?Yes I am a member of HANA. Why do you ask?

[Indulto]

Yes I am a member of HANA. Why do you ask?I'm just curious as to what you're doing lately for the cause. Are you insulted by that question as well since you didn't answer it?

When did you decide to sign-up? My impression was that you were an observer rather than a participant during the early going.

[cj]

I'm just curious as to what you're doing lately for the cause. Are you insulted by that question as well since you didn't answer it?


What a dumb thing to say. He just answered it and you ask if he is insulted because he didn't answer it? You clearly have some venom to spew on this topic. Why not just let it all out?

[Indulto]

What a dumb thing to say. He just answered it and you ask if he is insulted because he didn't answer it? You clearly have some venom to spew on this topic. Why not just let it all out?I asked what he had done lately and then I asked him if he was a member of HANA. He said he was a member of HANA, but he did not say what he had been doing lately.

How is it "clear" to you that I'm holding someting back. It seems like you're the one ready to pounce and expend internal serpentine fluids. Stop playing the boss's comic relief "yeah-man" and start going one-on-one. Let's see what you've got.

[PaceAdvantage]

I provide constant visibility in the form of free advertising on the home page and a forum dedicated to HANA. I have a full time job and a family and much of any free time I have left is devoted to PaceAdvantage, a place where all those pressing for lower takeout can be seen and read by industry insiders whom I know are reading these threads, if not participating in them directly.

I'm sorry I can't do more at the moment to satisfy the height of your bar. I have let my fellow horseplayers down and I would only ask for their forgiveness as I try and repair my tattered soul at the feet of the great and powerful Indulto...

[chickenhead]

Mike is kind of worthless.

If I remember he had (essentially) an open letter from HANA asking horseplayers to boycott Los Alamitos up on his home page for around 2 months, maybe longer. Even I got tired of reading it, and I wrote parts of it. I'd guess he put that message in front of more people, more often than any other outlet did by a wide wide margin.

But then Los Al chose to keep their takeout hike anyway. You should have made the font bigger, Mike, I kind of blame you for our current situation.

[Indulto]

I provide constant visibility in the form of free advertising on the home page and a forum dedicated to HANA. I have a full time job and a family and much of any free time I have left is devoted to PaceAdvantage, a place where all those pressing for lower takeout can be seen and read by industry insiders whom I know are reading these threads, if not participating in them directly.

I'm sorry I can't do more at the moment to satisfy the height of your bar. I have let my fellow horseplayers down and I would only ask for their forgiveness as I try and repair my tattered soul at the feet of the great and powerful Indulto...Finally, meaning ful dialogue. ;)

Do I have your permission to frame your post as the most entertaining moment of my participation here?:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

You're way more transparent and way less clever than you think.

[Indulto]

You're way more transparent and way less clever than you think.That doesn't help me much without any specifics. It's too bad you're taking this exchange personally, or perhaps defensively, since you initiated it.

[PaceAdvantage]

That doesn't help me much without any specifics. It's too bad you're taking this exchange personally, or perhaps defensively, since you initiated it.All you had to do was engage in honest debate from my initial question. That question being (in oh so many words), "Does Indulto view HANA with contempt?"

That's all. But you decided to first accuse me of trolling for controversy and then try and paint me as some sort of non-HANA member do-nothing kind of guy.

The fact remains that I've read most if not all of your HANA-related posts over the past year+ and it is as obvious as the day is long, so I suppose my question was rhetorical in nature...maybe I should have simply asked "Why?"

[Indulto]

All you had to do was engage in honest debate from my initial question. That question being (in oh so many words), "Does Indulto view HANA with contempt?"

That's all. But you decided to first accuse me of trolling for controversy and then try and paint me as some sort of non-HANA member do-nothing kind of guy.

The fact remains that I've read most if not all of your HANA-related posts over the past year+ and it is as obvious as the day is long, so I suppose my question was rhetorical in nature...maybe I should have simply asked "Why?"You’re entitled to your own conclusions. You get to choose whether or not you’re insulted. I don’t think my demeanor has changed, but it seems that your interpretation of it has.

If that means that I’m now a TOS violation waiting to happen, I guess I’ll have to be more guarded in interacting with you. I think we both lose under those circumstances.

[thaskalos]

I provide constant visibility in the form of free advertising on the home page and a forum dedicated to HANA. I have a full time job and a family and much of any free time I have left is devoted to PaceAdvantage, a place where all those pressing for lower takeout can be seen and read by industry insiders whom I know are reading these threads, if not participating in them directly.

I'm sorry I can't do more at the moment to satisfy the height of your bar. I have let my fellow horseplayers down and I would only ask for their forgiveness as I try and repair my tattered soul at the feet of the great and powerful Indulto...You provide a forum for horseplayers - novices and "know it alls" alike - to gather and compare notes about the game we all love.

Your website's menu is the most varied I have ever seen, with everything from expert handicapping advice, to passionate arguments about every facet of this game.

In an industry where the customer has always been treated with contempt, and where all our concerns are met by disinterested faces, and deaf ears...your contribution is invaluable IMO.

You provide us with a meeting place where we can further our skill, and also air our grievances...and for that, you should be applauded.

[PaceAdvantage]

If that means that I’m now a TOS violation waiting to happen, I guess I’ll have to be more guarded in interacting with you.I have absolutely NO idea where this just came from...

[Indulto]

I have absolutely NO idea where this just came from...Apparently, my alleged transparency is overrated. The issue is whether “honest debate” is open to interpretation.

All you had to do was engage in honest debate from my initial question. That question being (in oh so many words), "Does Indulto view HANA with contempt?"How could I not understand that the preceding do-over was equivalent to the following original? I get the vibe that Indulto has some serious contempt for HANA...am I getting warm?


That's all. But you decided to first accuse me of trolling for controversy and then try and paint me as some sort of non-HANA member do-nothing kind of guy.What will you accuse me of accusing you of next? I admit that I was distracted by “Ed McMahon’s” piggybacking on your “target selection.” I probably wouldn’t have even responded, but as they appeared in tandom, I couldn't ignore yours.

The fact remains that I've read most if not all of your HANA-related posts over the past year+ and it is as obvious as the day is long, so I suppose my question was rhetorical in nature...maybe I should have simply asked "Why?"A true fan! No wonder your days are too long.;) However, you ignored my subsequent reply to your “contempt” remark, and instead proclaimed injury to your image as HANA enabler, supporter, and overall Good Guy. Respectfully, I submit that it’s you who’s doing the creative artwork here, and your shining self-portrait has undoubtedly left the faithful gasping in awe.

[PaceAdvantage]

A true fan! No wonder your days are too long.;) However, you ignored my subsequent reply to your “contempt” remark, and instead proclaimed injury to your image as HANA enabler, supporter, and overall Good Guy. Respectfully, I submit that it’s you who’s doing the creative artwork here, and your shining self-portrait has undoubtedly left the faithful gasping in awe. [/font][/color]I told you before, you're not as clever as you think you are. But yet, you keep trying and trying.

Too bad you simply can't answer a question directly.

[thaskalos]

...and your shining self-portrait has undoubtedly left the faithful gasping in awe. There you go - clearly overstating our naivete...

I guess it takes a superior intellect like yours to finally figure out PA.

We "simpletons" can be so easily impressed...