Wondering if it is legal to have to pay income taxes?

[usetheforce]

Click on the link below to watch a video that puts to rest the question as to whether there is a law that says we have to pay income taxes.
http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm (http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm)

As an added attraction the link below is a lengthy video on who is running the country into the ground.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/585.html (http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/585.html)

[Dick Schmidt]

Use,


Yes, some of the legal standing of the income tax laws are a bit fuzzy, but I once met the guy who more or less started the whole income tax revolt. When he said that income tax was unconstitutional, I agreed (it was as the constitution was originally written) then pointed out that the constitution had been amended to specifically include income tax. Yes, but that was just an "add on" he responded. Well, then so is the Bill of Rights. You want to call them "just add ons?" I didn't get a good answer.

This guy fought the feds for 20 years. In the end, he spent 3 1/2 years in federal prison, lost his house and all his savings, was divorced by his wife and no longer has any contact with his kids. Lived in a beat up mobile home. So who won?

The truth is we all want things from the Federal Govt. Dems want social programs, health care and environmental protection. Reps want a strong military, a closed border and abortion police. All this costs money and if we don't pay, then nothing happens. The choice we all face is: do we pay and live out lives in a wonderful society or do we spend a lifetime fighting against our own government? Me, I pay my taxes, if not with a smile, at least with a light heart. A cheap price for life in America.

Dick

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

[boxcar]

Use,


Yes, some of the legal standing of the income tax laws are a bit fuzzy, but I once met the guy who more or less started the whole income tax revolt. When he said that income tax was unconstitutional, I agreed (it was as the constitution was originally written) then pointed out that the constitution had been amended to specifically include income tax. Yes, but that was just an "add on" he responded. Well, then so is the Bill of Rights. You want to call them "just add ons?" I didn't get a good answer.

This guy fought the feds for 20 years. In the end, he spent 3 1/2 years in federal prison, lost his house and all his savings, was divorced by his wife and no longer has any contact with his kids. Lived in a beat up mobile home. So who won?

The truth is we all want things from the Federal Govt. Dems want social programs, health care and environmental protection. Reps want a strong military, a closed border and abortion police. All this costs money and if we don't pay, then nothing happens. The choice we all face is: do we pay and live out lives in a wonderful society or do we spend a lifetime fighting against our own government? Me, I pay my taxes, if not with a smile, at least with a light heart. A cheap price for life in America.

Dick

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

Two observations: The conservatives' list would cost the country a lot less money, and would be far more in line with the U.S. Constitution. Then you could start paying your tax bill with a smile.

Boxcar

[jonnielu]

Two observations: The conservatives' list would cost the country a lot less money, and would be far more in line with the U.S. Constitution. Then you could start paying your tax bill with a smile.

Boxcar

Instead of guessing at it, why don't you write a couple of letters? One to the Secretary of Treasury asking him for his determination of whether you are a "taxpayer" for purposes of Title 26 U.S.C.

The other to your Congressman, asking for the legal basis on which Congress assumes that you are within the federal jurisdiction?

Congress doesn't need to tell you the truth as long as you are sending in 30% just cause the guy down the block does too. They are too busy laughing at you and the guy down the block.

jdl

[Warren Henry]

Instead of guessing at it, why don't you write a couple of letters? One to the Secretary of Treasury asking him for his determination of whether you are a "taxpayer" for purposes of Title 26 U.S.C.

The other to your Congressman, asking for the legal basis on which Congress assumes that you are within the federal jurisdiction?

Congress doesn't need to tell you the truth as long as you are sending in 30% just cause the guy down the block does too. They are too busy laughing at you and the guy down the block.

jdl
You indicate that one can write these letters and that the response will set you free.

May we assume that you have written such letters. Would you be kind enough to provide us with the actual response to your inquiries?
:confused:

[ddog]

then write one more letter to your wife giving her the location of your bail money and lawyer fees!
:lol:

What's the old saw about if you got nothing you got nothing to lose , something like that.

[Dave Schwartz]

I had an experience similar to Dick's. So similar, in fact, that I wonder if we didn't know the same person.

The guy that I knew was a Dr. living (I think) in Orange County, CA. At least he was when he got out. <G> (I don't recall what kind of medicine he practiced. Might have been opthamology.)

He actually used to run these classes, explaining to people how the government had no right to make them pay. He, being no hypocrit, followed suit and did not pay taxes himself.

Ultimately, he did the time Dick described. Since he was a convicted felon, he lost his license to practice medicine and the "life in a mobile home" phase began.


Dave

[jonnielu]

You indicate that one can write these letters and that the response will set you free.

May we assume that you have written such letters. Would you be kind enough to provide us with the actual response to your inquiries?
:confused:
No, I suggested that you may be better informed as to whether it is legal for you to have to pay a tax on your income, if you asked in writing of the Sec. of Treasury and your Congressman. As opposed to seeking such information on an internet forum.

The reason that I make that suggestion is that I know from experience that the only answers that you will believe are those that you already believe. I also know that if you put the question to the Sec. of Treasury, it is unlikely that he would hazard an answer to you. Hopefully this would cause you to wonder why.

If you put the question to your Congressman, and get a response, it will most likely be an amount of politicians double-talk about what the IRS says. Hopefully this might also engage you, if you considered that you are speaking to your representative in the federal Congress, yet you can not get an authoritative answer. These are things that you could do, that may help you in making the determination yourself within the bounds of your rightful authority.

Because you are making the determination yourself anyway, the system is legal in regard to you, beccause you have authorized it in regard to you.

The federal jurisdiction rests assured that you will believe that you have no authority in the first place, and that you would never be so bold as to take up your rights when you've surrendered them so easily.

I sent affidavits because they establish the truth. They got no response because they cited the truth. My service list covered all officials fed/state/local. 12/4/96

Pres Clinton
VP Gore
Senator Coverdell
Congressman Collins
AG Reno
Sec Treas Rubin
SCOTUS Chief Rehnquist
FBI Dir Freeh
Sec Comm Kantor
SS Com Chater
IRS Com Richardson
GA Gov Miller
GA Sen Crotts
GA Ass Maddox
Henry Co Sherriff Chaffin
DA Crumbley
Mayor Welch
City Att Welch

jdl

[Lefty]

I don't need to write no stinking letters. You pay or when they catch you, do not pass Go, go directly to jail. remember that guy Schiff that wrote books about how you didn't have to pay taxes? He went to jail for doing what he taught.

[jonnielu]

I don't need to write no stinking letters. You pay or when they catch you, do not pass Go, go directly to jail. remember that guy Schiff that wrote books about how you didn't have to pay taxes? He went to jail for doing what he taught.

Since it is a free country, you can sign your check on the back and send it along too.

jdl

[Tom]

If I wanted the truth about anything, why would I bother writing to the Sec of the Treasury or a simple-minded congressman? Assuming either one of then can read.

I used to think like you, Lefty, but nowadays, anyone who cheats on their taxes is OK by me, and anyone who can rob a bank and get away with it, more power to them. I've paid enough taxes and I no longer feel I owe this country a GD thing. This country is in the toilet because it deserves to be, and it is every man for himself.

[Lefty]

joni, you are free to not pay yours and go to jail. I was stating a fact.
Tom, we aren't talking about cheating a little, we're talking about no filing at all. Hell, cheating some musst be ok, Obama's admin is rife with them.

[jonnielu]

joni, you are free to not pay yours and go to jail. I was stating a fact.
Tom, we aren't talking about cheating a little, we're talking about no filing at all. Hell, cheating some musst be ok, Obama's admin is rife with them.

I don't have an income tax to pay, so there is no mine. You have no idea of the facts. You are simply reciting what you hear and obey.

I have no obligation to file anything with IRS, and I canceled my signatures on every IRS document I signed from 1970 - 1995. The IRS agent that was investigating me for self-employment tax in 2004 said that I couldn't do that. I asked if he would be so kind as to put that in writing and sign it for me, and he ran off. Haven't seen him since.

He knows where the bounds of authority/jurisdiction are.

jdl

[Lefty]

jonni, i do know the facts, but you're talking racecars and jalopies. there are people who do not have enough income to incur taxes. I have several retired friends that this applies to. But this isn't even close to what this is about. Everyone that incurs taxes must pay them. You can choose not pay them, but you run the risk of getting caught and going to jail. So stop trying to play gotcha. Doesn't work with me.

[jonnielu]

If I wanted the truth about anything, why would I bother writing to the Sec of the Treasury or a simple-minded congressman? Assuming either one of then can read.

I used to think like you, Lefty, but nowadays, anyone who cheats on their taxes is OK by me, and anyone who can rob a bank and get away with it, more power to them. I've paid enough taxes and I no longer feel I owe this country a GD thing. This country is in the toilet because it deserves to be, and it is every man for himself.


The real truth is still that the only authority held by these people is ours. "We the People" authorize government through our Constitution, our Sovereignty is inherent to us as a result of the unparalleled courage of our forebearers, whom we should honor by never forgetting.

"...at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are

truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects..

with none to govern but themselves; the citizens of America are equal as fellow

citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty."

CHISHOLM v. GEORGIA (US) 2 Dall 419, 454, 1 L Ed 440, 455 @DALL 1793 pp. 471-472.



"Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to the law, for it is the author

and source of law, but in our system, while sovereign powers are delegated to the agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the people, by whom

and for whom all government exists and acts." - "For, the very idea that one

man may be compelled to hold his life, or the means of living, or any material

right essential to the enjoyment of life, at the mere will of another, seems to be intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as being the essence of

slavery itself." Yick Wo v. Hopkins, Sheriff, 118 U.S. 356.

You may want to make a copy of this excerpt and keep it handy for those times when you think of seeking permission instead of making determination.

"The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the state or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to an investigation, so far as it may tend to criminate him. He owes no such duty to the state, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the state, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public as long as he does not trespass upon their rights."

Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43

jdl

[Lefty]

joni, what's all the b.s. about? Are you advocating that people who incur a tax bill don't have to pay it? will you do their jail time for them?
you can spout all day long that people don't have to pay taxes, But note this:
Schiff did jail time. Stop the crap. Some idiot might believe you, as they did Schiff. i suspect some of those went to jail too.

[jonnielu]

joni, what's all the b.s. about? Are you advocating that people who incur a tax bill don't have to pay it? will you do their jail time for them?
you can spout all day long that people don't have to pay taxes, But note this:
Schiff did jail time. Stop the crap. Some idiot might believe you, as they did Schiff. i suspect some of those went to jail too.

No, I'm advocating that people should be informed so that maybe America can remain a free country. Not a single idiot will believe me, they are too busy waiting for Obama to come fill up their gas tank, while the FED is ransacking their homes and emptying Fort Knox.

Schiff knew what he was risking, he made his mistakes and he is paying for that. The woman in the video above, Sherry Jackson, is doing 4 consecutive 12 mo sentences right now. Larken Rose did 15 months, and he's trying to get back in like Schiff with the same stupid arguments. At least they did better then to just bend over and take it. They put their asses on the line, and so did I because that is the one thing that will have to be done. If anyone wants to be free, sorry.

It only shows how close to gone our country is. Schiff and the others are in jail because they were not cognizant of the one thing that made our country unique in all of the world. The first and only such frame of government to exist. A Republic, where sovereignty rests with the People and their states.

The concept is virtually obliterated from the American conciousness. I've never asked a soul to take my word for it, but I have asked many to consider how and why our country came to be in the first place, and make an informed decision as to whether they want to do anything about it.

In our frame of government, it is the people that hold the chain of restraint. The people can excercise authority over the national government, without the national government having direct jurisdiction, or rule, over the people. The desire for this was at the heart of the War for Independence. The need for this is at the heart of our Constitution. This was to ensure that the federal government did not, and could not:
"usurp from the States all government in little as in great things, when all
government shall be drawn to Washington as the center of power it will render
powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as
oppressive as the government from which we separated." - Thomas Jefferson.

In so many ways, we can today see this prophecy of Jefferson coming true. For many years, Washington has been regarded as the center of power. Not because the federal government was chartered by the people to be all powerful, and not because the people want it to be all powerful. It is an illusion created and maintained by ignorance, apathy, and the tendency on the part of people to believe in anything except their own power. But, in reality, the power is still yours... if you will take it up. In truth, the only power that the federal government has over you is that which you are not using. The only use that they will put it to is in making you more dependent and therefore more powerless.

jdl

[Lefty]

Do you have to pay your taxes? Yes. I don't like Obama, but we will have to suffer him until the next election. If we elect a repub next time, we will still have to pay our duly owed taxes, but they will be lower.
The simple question was, do we have to pay taxes, and you have steered the thread wayyyyy off course.

[Tom]

I think that we should go on strike. National strike. Refuse to cooperate with this government. Cut off their money. Shut it down. WE give the government it's power, it is time for US to take it back.

Start with the census - refuse to provide anything more than how many people live at your address. That is all the constitution grants them the right to ask. Lie about everything else. Using ACORN for the census is unacceptable.

[Imriledup]

Just pretend the IRS is the mafia and they are asking you nicely to pay them so they'll 'protect' you and your family from 'harm'. You would probably say to the mobster/IRS "but i'm not in any danger" and the mob guy says back, "no, but you could be, that's why we are here, to 'protect' you.

[jonnielu]

Just pretend the IRS is the mafia and they are asking you nicely to pay them so they'll 'protect' you and your family from 'harm'. You would probably say to the mobster/IRS "but i'm not in any danger" and the mob guy says back, "no, but you could be, that's why we are here, to 'protect' you.

In regard to a sovereign citizen, that is what the federal income tax is, an extortion racket. In order to be liable for the tax by law, you first enroll yourself in that jurisdiction. No law compels you to do so, just as there is no law that compels you to join the Army. But, you are free to join anytime you want.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I think that we should go on strike. National strike. Refuse to cooperate with this government. Cut off their money. Shut it down. WE give the government it's power, it is time for US to take it back.

Start with the census - refuse to provide anything more than how many people live at your address. That is all the constitution grants them the right to ask. Lie about everything else. Using ACORN for the census is unacceptable.

The right to do so is written into the Declaration, the People's Constitution places the power to do so firmly at the hands of the People, because we are the government. Only in the federal jurisdiction, are the people not the government.

jdl

[boxcar]

Excerpts from none other than AP:

Obama puts critics of financial overhaul on notice

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama said Saturday that current financial rules exploit consumers and he put critics of his proposed overhaul on notice: "While I'm not spoiling for a fight, I'm ready for one."

Obama used his weekly radio and Internet address to defend his recent proposal, which is intended to prevent a repeat of the breakdown that has sent the U.S. economy reeling. But such major changes face a fight in Congress and opposition from some leaders in the banking and insurance industries.

In the address, Obama focused on a consumer watchdog office that he wants to set up.

"This is essential," Obama said. "For this crisis may have started on Wall Street. But its impacts have been felt by ordinary Americans who rely on credit cards, home loans and other financial instruments."

The Consumer Financial Protection Agency would take over oversight of mortgages, requiring that lenders give customers the option of "plain vanilla" plans with clear and affordable terms.

Here comes the punch line:

"It will have the power to set tough new rules so that companies compete by offering innovative products that consumers actually want and actually understand," Obama said. "Those ridiculous contracts — pages of fine print that no one can figure out — will be a thing of the past. You'll be able to compare products, with descriptions in plain language, to see what is best for you."

Does anyone know why I posted his remarks on this thread? Does anyone sense the megabytes of irony in his words? Does anyone perceive the smug, hypocritical self-righteousness of Big Gov? Anyone want to share why.

And then just an aside, you gotta love these comments:

"I welcome a debate about how we can make sure our regulations work for businesses and consumers," Obama said. "But what I will not accept — what I will vigorously oppose — are those who do not argue in good faith."

By that, Obama said, he meant those who defend the status quo at any cost. He didn't name any people or organizations, but said special interests are already mobilizing to fight change. He called that typical Washington.

So, he doesn't mind dissenters just as long as they debate in good faith. More hypocrisy, since the Left wants anything but a good faith debate on an issue like global warming. To them, it's not debatable because it's a "settled issue".

And then BO's utterly simplistic remarks about "change" is predictable because he thinks and wants us to think that all change is for the better, when this is the farthest thing from the truth. Maybe he can sell this fairytale to some children but not to mature, thinking adults.

Here's the full story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090620/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_consumers

Boxcar

[Tom]

Expanding his organized crime family outside of the legal government again.
This guy is spreading like cancer.

And with similar results.

[jonnielu]

I love it when an elitist or any of the "holier than thou" crowd uses the term "ordinary citizen". They just hate the fact that the country is founded on equality. They should be thankful that it isn't a democracy, the "ordinary citizens" might vote to burn them at the stake, with all of the class warfare that the elitists have fomented.

jdl

[Tom]

I'm for throwing a few anchors overboard.:lol:

[boxcar]

Perhaps it was a slow day today on this OT forum because if not, I would be surprised no one picked took off with my questions that I posed in my last post.
But now that I have a few minutes, let's briefly analyze BO's remarks.

For starters, he's once again expressing his hostility toward the Private Market -- more specifically to its financial sector. He's laying all the blame squarely on its shoulders for the "breakdown that has sent the U.S. economy reeling", to borrow his words.

He essentially goes on to say that the really big part of the problem with the financial sector and why the economy tanked is because the products they sell to Joe Blow Consumer aren't represented in language "plain" enough, "clear" enough or "vanilla" enough, and basically aren't understandable. So, what's he want to do? Probably down the road appoint another czar who would oversee the financial sector -- which right now he's calling a "consumer watchdog office". Watchdogs protect and serve, don't they? So this "watchdog office" is going to protect the "ordinary" consumer from big, bad, evil, money-grubbing capitalists who write these complex contracts and agreements that only lawyers and bankers supposedly can understand.

Now, we know BO's words to the Left probably sent them reeling in ecstasy and had a thrilling orgasmic effect on them. :rolleyes: But little do they realize that once again, they were duped into believing another lie. It never crossed their brainwashed minds that when Big Gov itself is living in the proverbial glass house, it shouldn't go around arrogantly and smugly carrying this self-righteous, holier-than-thou chip on its shoulder accusing others of the very sins Big, Bad, Duplicitous, Corrupt government itself has been committing now for numerous decades. Mr. BO needs to remove the beam from his own eye before presuming to remove the speck from someone else's.
Apparently, someone forgot another very Inconvenient Truth -- this one called the Income Tax System that is so unbelievably complex that tax "experts" often cannot agree on what many portions of the code are attempting to convey to "ordinary" taxpayers. :bang: :bang:

I have an old tax code book somewhere in my library. It's about 15 years old or so. And at that time it was over 10,000 pages in thickness. God only knows how much it has grown since then. I find it more than ironic that BO complains about "ridiculous contracts" loaded with "pages of fine print that NO ONE can figure out"!!! :bang: :bang: On what planet has this Incompetent Nincompoop been living all these years!? :bang: The voluminous U.S. Tax Code probably contains more fine print in it than there are ants crawling around this planet!

If the U.S. government was truly interested in protecting Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary from questionable or shady dealings from without the government, don't you think it would set the example by cleaning its own house first? Has anyone ever heard anyone from a high government position talk about the "RIDICULOUS" nature of the U.S. tax code? Has anyone in congress ever made any serious, concerted to change things for Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary in a manner that would make the tax code infinitely more understandable and transparent? Has anyone heard Mr. BO supporting radical tax reforms? Has anyone heard BO decrying the deplorable and ridiculous state of affairs in which the tax code finds itself? Of course not! Why? Because the Tax Code is the product of the political system in D.C. It's the product of the political establishment.

So, what is all this flap REALLY all about with the financial sector? Simple. It's not about protecting Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary. BO the Elitist is simply on another power grab. Fascism is alive and well in the Oval Office.

Boxcar

[jonnielu]

If the U.S. government was truly interested in protecting Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary from questionable or shady dealings from without the government, don't you think it would set the example by cleaning its own house first? Has anyone ever heard anyone from a high government position talk about the "RIDICULOUS" nature of the U.S. tax code?

Yes, Reagan did all he could to tell you. See the Grace Commission report.

Has anyone in congress ever made any serious, concerted to change things for Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary in a manner that would make the tax code infinitely more understandable and transparent? Has anyone heard Mr. BO supporting radical tax reforms? Has anyone heard BO decrying the deplorable and ridiculous state of affairs in which the tax code finds itself? Of course not! Why? Because the Tax Code is the product of the political system in D.C. It's the product of the political establishment.


Boxcar

The tax code is the source of D.C.'s power, and it is the conduit through which you abdicate your responsibility as a steward of Liberty in order to transfer your power to the federal jurisdiction.

Even the federal jurisdiction itself dis-respects you for laying down before it.

jdl

[boxcar]

The tax code is the source of D.C.'s power, and it is the conduit through which you abdicate your responsibility as a steward of Liberty in order to transfer your power to the federal jurisdiction.

Even the federal jurisdiction itself dis-respects you for laying down before it.

jdl

You're absolutely right. Once you relinquish control of your personal property to the government, that opens the flood gates to tyranny. It's not really that surprising that the government can actually size your real property or levy very heavy fines upon a landowner for not complying with EPA regs. Landowners no longer really own their own land. And not only can they do these things, but they can get very arrogant, condescending, belligerent and threatening about it.

I have a good friend of mine who owns a big chunk of property upstate from me who had horrendous experiences with the EPA. And the bureaucrat who ran the office in his area told my buddy straight out that he never wanted to see his face in his office again if he wanted to keep his property. Gotta love two-bit, bureaucratic tyrants.

Boxcar

[BenDiesel26]

I have actually heard of people shunning the fed, removing their names from being attached to any social security number (apparently you were enrolled in the federal jurisdiction j speaks of by your own parents ignorance) and using the fact that apparently if you don't live in DC, Puerto Rico, or other federal jurisdictions that technically you are not required to pay income tax and the IRS can't do anything about it. Something about the fact that being a citizen of the United States is different than being a citizen of the United States of America. Or somehow you can become a non-resident alien. Also, apparently the 16th amendment was never officially ratified or something of that sort. Don't take my word for this I just have read this in the past. I am way too young at this point to do the research and take a chance on this as I'm sure its a thin line between this and jail and you better have one hell of a lawyer lined up, but if some of what's happening continues who knows if you will see more people trying to jump on this boat as there seems to be validity to some of these claims.

[jonnielu]

I have actually heard of people shunning the fed, removing their names from being attached to any social security number (apparently you were enrolled in the federal jurisdiction j speaks of by your own parents ignorance) and using the fact that apparently if you don't live in DC, Puerto Rico, or other federal jurisdictions that technically you are not required to pay income tax and the IRS can't do anything about it. Something about the fact that being a citizen of the United States is different than being a citizen of the United States of America. Or somehow you can become a non-resident alien. Also, apparently the 16th amendment was never officially ratified or something of that sort. Don't take my word for this I just have read this in the past. I am way too young at this point to do the research and take a chance on this as I'm sure its a thin line between this and jail and you better have one hell of a lawyer lined up, but if some of what's happening continues who knows if you will see more people trying to jump on this boat as there seems to be validity to some of these claims.

If you don't believe that you have any rights, what do you believe happened to them.

jdl