Hey TLG

[tribecaagent]

Have you ever seen a horse as versatile as Einstein?

The one that comes to my mind is Late Act.

I can't think of another one with his quality. Can you?

[the little guy]

Fortunately synthetic surfaces haven't been around that long.

[tribecaagent]

Ha! Yeah, that's true.

How about just a combination grass/dirt runner? Let's put synthetic aside for a second. When was the last time you've seen a grade one runner on grass AND dirt?

[the little guy]

I like Einstein a lot, I always have, but he's can only be considered a Grade 1 dirt horse when the dirt handicap horses are as unbelievably weak as they are right now.

[slew101]

Lava Man won Grade 1s on dirt and turf in California, but could not win outside that state.

[tribecaagent]

Didn't Einstein run second to Curlin and third Albertus Maximus, both on dirt?

[the little guy]

Didn't Einstein run second to Curlin and third Albertus Maximus, both on dirt?


Now Albertus Maximus is a Grade 1 horse?

He was 4 plus lengths behind Curlin.....and a nose in front of the mighty Barcola.

You are proving my point.

[Valuist]

John Henry was a legit, versatile Grade 1 horse on grass or dirt. Einstein would've been crushed if he faced the equivalent of a John Henry.

[the little guy]

Waya won two Grade 1s on the turf against the boys....as well as two Grade 1s, one being the Beldame, against her own sex.

How about Sakhee....he won the Juddmonte and Arc, was second in the BC Classic to Tiznow and third in the Dubai World Cup. He would have drowned Einstein on either surface.

How about Giant's Causeway?

Honestly, no offense to Einstein, who's a really nice horse, and probably the coolest horse currently racing, but the list is endless.

[tribecaagent]

I certainly could be proving your point. That's why this thread is in honor of you....my question is when is the last time you've seen this kind of consistency? Didn't Greinten have a similar campaign? He won the Arlington Million and The Big Cap, no?

[Charlie D]

Curlin was a genuine G1 performer on Dirt and Synth and he may have been one on turf too had connections stuck to 9/10 panels


IMHO, of course

[Citation1947]

John Henry was a legit, versatile Grade 1 horse on grass or dirt. Einstein would've been crushed if he faced the equivalent of a John Henry.

I have to disagree somewhat here. Although I believe John Henry to be a better horse than Einstein, John Henry never "crushed" anyone. He only ran hard enough to win.

[KirisClown]

When he was right.. Gentlemen was pretty awesome on both turf and dirt..

Escena was a Grade I winner on both surfaces as well..

[ManeMediaMogul]

This is going back a ways but COUGAR II was as versatile as they come.

Owned by Mary Florsheim Jones and trained by the great Charlie Whittingham, he was a lot like EINSTEIN in that the Chilean-bred always looked sensational on the track, could perform against Grade 1 company on any surface under top weight and he had an obscure pedigree (Tale of Two Cities - Cindy Lou).

[the little guy]

How about Candy Ride? He would have beaten Einstein by a pole on any surface.

[Dave Schwartz]

TLG,

Although unrelated to this thread, this seemed like a perfect place to say this.

I caughtyour whole show the other day and I must tell you how much I enjoyed your style. You put your opinions out there very well. Like every one of us, your not always right, but your delivery of the material (as well as the content) is really top notch.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[OTM Al]

Secretariat himself took down a turf race as well and some believe he was a better turfer than a dirt horse. Don't think it gets too much better than that.

A big cheer for Einstein and his connections though. The division may be weak, but they duck nothing.

[cj]

He actually won twice on turf, the Man O War and his last race at Woodbine.

[DeanT]

TLG,

Although unrelated to this thread, this seemed like a perfect place to say this.

I caughtyour whole show the other day and I must tell you how much I enjoyed your style. You put your opinions out there very well. Like every one of us, your not always right, but your delivery of the material (as well as the content) is really top notch.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Agree Dave. So many in house shows concentrate (usually from the corporate direction) in getting players to pick winners. Their show concentrates on value and telling people how to bet to get ROI. That is what we need more of. As we all know, betting this game with egregious takeouts, short priced winners are nothing more than something to brag about, resulting usually in an end of day empty wallet.

[slew101]

Hold on. How many big races did Candy Ride win/run in the U.S. other than the Pacific Classic?

At least Einstein can run a ton of Grade 1 races without getting hurt.

How about Candy Ride? He would have beaten Einstein by a pole on any surface.

[cj]

Hold on. How many big races did Candy Ride win/run in the U.S. other than the Pacific Classic?

At least Einstein can run a ton of Grade 1 races without getting hurt.

He never said he was more durable.

[slew101]

Well that counts if you're talking about a great horse, or saying a horse would crush another horse.

Candy Ride whacking Madaglio D'Oro in the PC is not exactly my idea of a championship run. Do it in multiple spots, traveling to different tracks before we throw him with horses who actually accomplish something instead of just hype over one race.

He never said he was more durable.

[Robert Fischer]

Einstein is a good solid horse that you can root for every time out.
If you wanted to be really strict he is a Grade II horse, you could even say Grade III on a more global/historical scale but those would probably be unrealistic standards for comparison.

shamps illy zay, cowboy cal, delightful kiss, barcola are all Grade III types.

He's consistent, he is likeable, he ran a lot better than I expected in a very GradeII/III Stephen Foster and may have even been best, but others have been better dual surface runners.

Now to ruin an otherwise credible post:D: I would even take some recent less proven runners. Barbaro, Curlin, Hard Spun, Nobiz, Big Brown - I'll take any of these on their good days on turf vs. Einstein

[the little guy]

Well that counts if you're talking about a great horse, or saying a horse would crush another horse.

Candy Ride whacking Madaglio D'Oro in the PC is not exactly my idea of a championship run. Do it in multiple spots, traveling to different tracks before we throw him with horses who actually accomplish something instead of just hype over one race.


I prefer a good argument where my opponent knows at least something about what they are talking about. But, hey, I'm sort of wacky that way.

[Charlie D]

Dubai Millennium, Swain



More you recall , more apparent it becomes that Einstien probably gets buried by the proper Grade 1 performers on Dirt and Turf.

[slew101]

I hope the moderator doesn't delete my response, because I don't think people on this board should be allowed to talk to people like you do.

OMG, you are such a pompous jerk. Heaven forbid anyone debate a point with you.

And by the way, smart guy, Albertus Maximus is a Grade 1 horse. He won the Grade 1 Donn Handicap. While that might not count as Grade I in your book, he's a Grade 1 horse in everyone else's.

I prefer a good argument where my opponent knows at least something about what they are talking about. But, hey, I'm sort of wacky that way.

[Valuist]

I have to disagree somewhat here. Although I believe John Henry to be a better horse than Einstein, John Henry never "crushed" anyone. He only ran hard enough to win.

Can't help but believe the group of handicap horses in the early-mid 80s was definitely stronger than the current bunch. I would have to think that the horses John Henry was narrowly beating would probably dismantle Einstein as well.

[the little guy]

I hope the moderator doesn't delete my response, because I don't think people on this board should be allowed to talk to people like you do.

OMG, you are such a pompous jerk. Heaven forbid anyone debate a point with you.

And by the way, smart guy, Albertus Maximus is a Grade 1 horse. He won the Grade 1 Donn Handicap. While that might not count as Grade I in your book, he's a Grade 1 horse in everyone else's.

Because you don't know Candy Ride's accomplishments, and race record, but felt compelled to respond, does not disqualify me from responding....whether you like it or not. Sorry.

You haven't followed the discussion, yet need to be heard, but also feel compelled to whine when someone points out the deficiencies of your responses? Sorry, but you chose to get involved.

[Charlie D]

I hope the moderator doesn't delete my response, because I don't think people on this board should be allowed to talk to people like you do.

OMG, you are such a pompous jerk. Heaven forbid anyone debate a point with you.

And by the way, smart guy, Albertus Maximus is a Grade 1 horse. He won the Grade 1 Donn Handicap. While that might not count as Grade I in your book, he's a Grade 1 horse in everyone else's.


If they measure ability using race Class designations they would be correct. However, a Grade 1 can be full of horses that would not hit the board in say a race like the Classic, Arc or Japan Cup.

[slew101]

I do know Candy Ride's history, I just don't think it's as good as you do. I know he won turf stakes in Argentina and two dirt stakes in Calif., including his great PC. But I question the competition in Argentina and even the PC was a 4-horse field with a horse (Magdalia D'Oro) who always seemed to finish second in big races. I just always thought he was overhyped.

I would say he needed to do more in the U.S. to receive special billing. You disagree. That's all. Fine. But the fact you need to insult the intelligence of posters here is sickening, in my opinion. That's what I "whined" about, not you taking apart my point, which you didn't even do in that post.

You think it's fine, so be it. And I didn't see your response to Alberto Maximus not being a Grade 1 horse when he's won a Grade 1 (plus, the BC Mile, not a Grade 1 yet, I don't think). And despite the competition being poor at Gulfstream (and even the BC Mile) that doesn't mean he's not a Grade 1 horse for his connections or general handicapping circles.

Because you don't know Candy Ride's accomplishments, and race record, but felt compelled to respond, does not disqualify me from responding....whether you like it or not. Sorry.

You haven't followed the discussion, yet need to be heard, but also feel compelled to whine when someone points out the deficiencies of your responses? Sorry, but you chose to get involved.

[the little guy]

I do know Candy Ride's history, I just don't think it's as good as you do. I know he won turf stakes in Argentina and two dirt stakes in Calif., including his great PC. But I question the competition in Argentina and even the PC was a 4-horse field with a horse (Magdalia D'Oro) who always seemed to finish second in big races. I just always thought he was overhyped.




Like I said.....you don't know Candy Ride's record.

[andymays]

Like I said.....you don't know Candy Ride's record.


Candy Ride had some crazy ability.

[Charlie D]

But I question the competition in Argentina and even the PC was a 4-horse field with a horse (Magdalia D'Oro) who always seemed to finish second in big races. I just always thought he was overhyped.

.


Does not the fact that he was 2nd in these big races strengthen TLG's case for Candy Ride being good, also the 3rd horse in PC looks to have been fairly decent too.

I suppose it all boils down to how you evaluate the past performances of the horses Candy Ride beat and whether you think those horses performed to their best, near best on the day they met Candy Ride

[slew101]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Ride

Like I said.....you don't know Candy Ride's record.

[slew101]

My belief was simply he didn't race enough times. If he had won the BC Classic that year, or won outside of California in the U.S., I would think different. He wasn't BC eligible and maybe they didn't spend the entry fee because he was showing injury signs.

I loved Madaglia D'Oro. Very good horse, just never seemed to win the big one. I didn't even realize how many big-race 2nds he had until recounting them today.

Does not the fact that he was 2nd in these big races strengthen TLG's case for Candy Ride being good, also the 3rd horse in PC looks to have been fairly decent too.

I suppose it all boils down to how you evaluate the past performances of the horses Candy Ride beat and whether you think those horses performed to their best, near best on the day they met Candy Ride

[the little guy]

Wikipedia?

That's great. Thanks.

[Imriledup]

Wikipedia?

That's great. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with Wikipedia. If you feel that anything is in error, you can go on there and edit stuff and make it right.

[the little guy]

Here's the point, the question that headed this thread is what horses were better than Einstein on both surfaces....that is the discussion. Candy Ride would have dusted him on both surfaces. Argue that all you want....but if you know Candy Ride.....you know the truth.

I don't need Wikipedia to know what Candy Ride did on turf AND dirt. However, clearly someone else, someone who chose to enter the fray and then get inulting, does.

[Imriledup]

My belief was simply he didn't race enough times. If he had won the BC Classic that year, or won outside of California in the U.S., I would think different. He wasn't BC eligible and maybe they didn't spend the entry fee because he was showing injury signs.

I loved Madaglia D'Oro. Very good horse, just never seemed to win the big one. I didn't even realize how many big-race 2nds he had until recounting them today.

I think little guy's point was that on their best days, for one race, his horse Candy Ride would trounce your horse Einstein.

This is the classic argument about one horse's best race on his best day vs a horse who piled up accomplishments in a long career. I think little guy was just talking about one shot, both horses at their best, on one day.

As far as Medaglia goes, he was better than you think. He was 4th in the Derby and got a bad ride/tough trip and was a strong 4th. He was a no show in the Preakness and raced great in the Belmont. Medaglia was a powerful horse. Was he a great horse? No. But on his best day he was really good.

[Charlie D]

I loved Madaglia D'Oro. Very good horse, just never seemed to win the big one. I didn't even realize how many big-race 2nds he had until recounting them today.


And your conclusion after re-evaultion of the evidence is i suppose, TLG is probably correct regarding Candy Ride??

[slew101]

You're delusional. You're the one who can't have a discussion without insulting someone. Take a hike.

I don't need Wikipedia to know what Candy Ride did on turf AND dirt. However, clearly someone else, someone who chose to enter the fray and then get inulting, does.

[slewis]

So TLG is making a point of how Einstein, a nice versatile horse, is no world beater where some have him as the next coming of John Henry....


So I'll get really controversial and state he's nothing more than a decent Alowance horse on the dirt and will get trounced against legit graded company.

I'll make a bold to keep the thread alive:


Einstein wouldn't beat ANY of the top 7 three year olds on the dirt at 1 1/8 mile or more.... and he'd lose to Mine that Bird or Rachel by 5 or more.

Argue away.....

[Imriledup]

So TLG is making a point of how Einstein, a nice versatile horse, is no world beater where some have him as the next coming of John Henry....


So I'll get really controversial and state he's nothing more than a decent Alowance horse on the dirt and will get trounced against legit graded company.

I'll make a bold to keep the thread alive:


Einstein wouldn't beat ANY of the top 7 three year olds on the dirt at 1 1/8 mile or more.... and he'd lose to Mine that Bird or Rachel by 5 or more.

Argue away.....

I don't think anyone's arguing that Einstein would beat anyone good.

or are they?

[slew101]

No, we were not.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Einstein would beat anyone good.

or are they?

[Imriledup]

No, we were not.

Phew, i was beginning to wonder.

[Charlie D]

I think this thread has probably shown the weakness of current horses in training and aslo shows to become the Champ is probably not as tough as it might have been in past years.

[Imriledup]

I think this thread has probably shown the weakness of current horses in training and aslo shows to become the Champ is probably not as tough as it might have been in past years.

Too bad the BC this year is on plastic, I'd love to see Rachel win the Classic.

[Charlie D]

Be a foolish not to go wouldn't it, she is probably as good as the current lot in Euroland

[PaceAdvantage]

But the fact you need to insult the intelligence of posters here is sickening, in my opinion.Sickening? First off, whether he insulted your intelligence or not is open for serious debate.

Second off, there are a helluva lot more legitimate things in this world to be sickened over than what someone types here on a message board during a debate about Einstein or Candy Ride or whomever.

[the little guy]

You're delusional. You're the one who can't have a discussion without insulting someone. Take a hike.


This is why I love the internet. It's like a cocktail party, where people are having a conversation, and someone decides to butt in with a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed, without even having their facts straight, and then gets insulted when someone points that out.

This thread is about horses that were better on both surfaces than Einstein.....not about horses that are had long resumes of success, or were great, or whatever.

I should take a hike? You were the one that butted into my conversation....with a nonsequitur no less!

[slewis]

No, we were not.


This is the axe I need to grind regarding Einstein.... He's a glorified Allowance horse. I dont know whether it's his name or whatever that attracts people to get headlines in the DRF, but he's nothing to talk about. His race Saturday was pathetic.
I read how he was blocked and bothered.... NONSENSE.. he had nothing in the stretch...against a weak bunch at that.

If you are an older handicap horse and you cant stomp the 7th best 3yr old... it means one of two things:

Either the 3 year olds are really really good... OR

You're not really an older handicap horse...

Although I personally believe this years 3 yr olds are good... they are not sensational (referencing Rachel A. vs colts... against fillies she is, of course, sensational).

[the little guy]

TLG,

Although unrelated to this thread, this seemed like a perfect place to say this.

I caughtyour whole show the other day and I must tell you how much I enjoyed your style. You put your opinions out there very well. Like every one of us, your not always right, but your delivery of the material (as well as the content) is really top notch.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz


Thanks Dave. I only wish I could take credit for Mine That Bird pointing to the Travers.

[slew101]

TLG, last comment from me, and I know you're thrilled about that. Can I ask one question? You never did answer my point about Albertus Maximus, since you claim I don't have facts straight.

I just wanted your view on that. He's not a Grade 1 horse?

This is why I love the internet. It's like a cocktail party, where people are having a conversation, and someone decides to butt in with a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed, without even having their facts straight, and then gets insulted when someone points that out.

This thread is about horses that were better on both surfaces than Einstein.....not about horses that are had long resumes of success, or were great, or whatever.

I should take a hike? You were the one that butted into my conversation....with a nonsequitur no less!

[the little guy]

TLG, last comment from me, and I know you're thrilled about that. Can I ask one question? You never did answer my point about Albertus Maximus, since you claim I don't have facts straight.

I just wanted your view on that. He's not a Grade 1 horse?

Albertus Maximus is proof positive of the relative weakness of this current crop of older horses. Anyone that doesn't see that honestly has no understanding of relative quality of horses and the history of the game. It's really as simple as that.

Winning races with names, or grades, in front of them doesn't make a horse good. The quality of their performances determines that.

Incidentally, how did the horse that finished second to Albertus Maximus in the Donn fair in Saturday's renewal of the Foster?

[speed]

My kids are watching Daddy Day care right now on TV. If that isn't perfect for this thread.

[Charlie D]

Speed butts in to Cocktail Party conversation and totally confuses the Englishman.


Thanks Speed. I'll get my flat cap and whippet and be off home :)

[Robert Fischer]

No, Albertus Maximus is not a grade I horse in any circle.

Having a Grade I win does not make you a grade I horse. Too many garbage races with inferior competition and short fields to judge horses by the label of the race designation.

[ghostyapper]

No, Albertus Maximus is not a grade I horse in any circle.

Having a Grade I win does not make you a grade I horse. Too many garbage races with inferior competition and short fields to judge horses by the label of the race designation.

He won the BC Mile with a full field including multiple G1 winners/runners. The race wasn't a grade 1 at the time but the performance definitely was

[BetHorses!]

TLG,

Although unrelated to this thread, this seemed like a perfect place to say this.

I caughtyour whole show the other day and I must tell you how much I enjoyed your style. You put your opinions out there very well. Like every one of us, your not always right, but your delivery of the material (as well as the content) is really top notch.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I'll second this.
I watched a few weeks ago, you gave out Becky's Exchange ($44.60). Didn't see anyone mention it so, Great Pick and for the right reasons.

I don't say much but I monitor everything. :)

[Cholly]

TLG,

Although unrelated to this thread, this seemed like a perfect place to say this.

I caughtyour whole show the other day and I must tell you how much I enjoyed your style. You put your opinions out there very well. Like every one of us, your not always right, but your delivery of the material (as well as the content) is really top notch.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Late to the cocktail party, but wanted to echo these comments: Love the show and look forward to it everyday. I wish the opening section of misc. comments was longer, but my only real gripe is this:

That intro music (Floyd?)…It’s gotta’ go—It’s so 1970ish. I’ll resist the urge to be cute and suggest using the Twilight Zone theme song; just make it something more contemporary and upbeat. Although if you want to stay retro, maybe consider Henry Mancini’s “Peter Gunn”.

[the little guy]

Late to the cocktail party, but wanted to echo these comments: Love the show and look forward to it everyday. I wish the opening section of misc. comments was longer, but my only real gripe is this:

That intro music (Floyd?)…It’s gotta’ go—It’s so 1970ish. I’ll resist the urge to be cute and suggest using the Twilight Zone theme song; just make it something more contemporary and upbeat. Although if you want to stay retro, maybe consider Henry Mancini’s “Peter Gunn”.


Thanks. I would like to change the opening music to " All You do is Talk " by Black Rebel Motorcycle Club. Great song.....and it sort of fits.

[joanied]

This is the axe I need to grind regarding Einstein.... He's a glorified Allowance horse. I dont know whether it's his name or whatever that attracts people to get headlines in the DRF, but he's nothing to talk about. His race Saturday was pathetic.
I read how he was blocked and bothered.... NONSENSE.. he had nothing in the stretch...against a weak bunch at that.

If you are an older handicap horse and you cant stomp the 7th best 3yr old... it means one of two things:

Either the 3 year olds are really really good... OR

You're not really an older handicap horse...

Although I personally believe this years 3 yr olds are good... they are not sensational (referencing Rachel A. vs colts... against fillies she is, of course, sensational).


slewis...here's two quotes from a story in the Thoroughbred Times (web site) on the Stephen Foster and Einstein's run:

"The clean trip made all of the difference in the 1 1/8-mile Stephen Foster for Macho Again as he closed unimpeded from the center of the track under Robby Albarado, while Einstein and Asiatic Boy were forced to wait behind foes before finishing strongly."

"On the final turn, Albarado swung Macho Again to the outside and he accelerated willingly. Einstein was trapped behind horses and jockey Julien Leparoux was forced to check when both Einstein and Asiatic Boy moved toward the same opening. Macho Again got the jump on Einstein and was never seriously threatened after surging clear."

"I'm on the horse to beat, so of course they're trying to beat me. I had nowhere to go; I just had to wait," Leparoux said. "I was in a pretty good spot, but I had nowhere to go. So I just waited and when he got room at the eighth pole, he finished strong. He was probably the best horse, but that's horse racing."

I'm not getting involved with this thread...IMO, Einstein is a nice old horse and a ton of fun to follow, he obviously has ability, as his record shows...
the only reason I jumped in (after reading a most entertaining thread:) ) is to correct you about his race in the Foster...
please watch that race again...I was on my feet (at home) yelling at the TV...no,no,no because it was obvious that the horse was blocked and had to wait...and he showed plenty of guts to get through and finish as well as he did.
Now, keep in mind...I am not even trying to say how good, or not, he might be...just that he did get blocked on Saturday.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/utils/flash_pop.aspx?vp=Web&vc=1&vid1=mp4:2009/771/200906131727CHD10_771.f4v

(listen to the call, slewis)

:) :) :)