Dubai Scraps Dirt Racing

[Ian Meyers]

Meydan will encompass two tracks, a 1,750-meter all-weather surface inside, and a 2,400-meter turf course, while its grandstand will accommodate 60,000 people and include a five-star hotel, marina, IMAX cinema, six haute cuisine restaurants, and a museum.

“(At Meydan), unparalleled levels of luxury, customer comfort, and racing technology will be combined to create the ultimate horseracing experience,” said Al Tayer. "As we are setting the benchmark in terms of world-class facilities, we want to complement that with increased prize-money of $10 million, to continue to entice the best horses in the world for the 2010 Dubai World Cup.”

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51209/new-dubai-track-slated-to-race-in-2010?id=51209&source=rss

Tapeta, if I remember correctly. Will obviously attract Europeans to come over for the $6mm World Cup....

[JeremyJet]

Tapeta, if I remember correctly. Will obviously attract Europeans to come over for the $6mm World Cup....

But what about American [dirt] horses? I'm sure we'll still go over there, but we will no longer have an edge. Just like the Breeders' Cup at Santa Anita I guess. :bang:

Regards,

JeremyJet

[joanied]

They might regret this...if they'd had this in place 2 years ago...I doubt Jackson would have sent Curlin over there.

[fmolf]

They might regret this...if they'd had this in place 2 years ago...I doubt Jackson would have sent Curlin over there.
with that kind of purse money everyone will go!

[cj]

American based dirt horses will have very little chance now. Of course, they are probably thinking why do we keep giving our money away to the US?

[Tom]

If you can't beat them on the track, beat them with the track.

[the little guy]

More inconsequential races with big purses. Whoopee!

[LottaKash]

If you can't beat them on the track, beat them with the track.

Very Catchy Tom....:jump:

best,

[Charlie D]

More inconsequential races with big purses. Whoopee!


Be a massive hit with those looking to add 10 million bucks to thier bank account and a Grade 1 to thier horses cv.


If you are going to run a horse as 4yo with the ability of say RA, MTB, Sea to Stars you'd probably need a very good reason not to get on plane to Dubai

[slewis]

American based dirt horses will have very little chance now. Of course, they are probably thinking why do we keep giving our money away to the US?

CJ,

Not quite accurate.... I need to correct your statement, with all due respect..... and the price of Gas around $3.00 a gal, again....

You're statement should have read:

They are probably thinking.."Why do we keep giving THEIR money BACK to them"?

[cj]

Be a massive hit with those looking to add 10 million bucks to thier bank account and a Grade 1 to thier horses cv.


If you are going to run a horse as 4yo with the ability of say RA, MTB, Sea to Stars you'd probably need a very good reason not to get on plane to Dubai

You may be right for a year or two, but after connections see their horses get drubbed, as our turf horses do overseas, they will probably wise up.

[Bruddah]

You may be right for a year or two, but after connections see their horses get drubbed, as our turf horses do overseas, they will probably wise up.

So the Quest to Internationalize Horse Racing has come to this; Come to Dubai. If you have a marginal late running horse, you too have a shot at $10 million.

Personally speaking, they can take all that plastic sand and pound up their plastic pony A$$e$. :lol:

[Tom]

Or, the other side of the coin, come run on dirt where cheap speed rules the roost and decent horses have no shot. Merry-Go_Round racing at it's finest.

[joanied]

Let's wait and see how many of our horses make the trip...no sense having huge purse monies to run for if the horse you have hates plastic and won't run a lick.

[cj]

Or, the other side of the coin, come run on dirt where cheap speed rules the roost and decent horses have no shot. Merry-Go_Round racing at it's finest.

Those types races were few and far between at the classic distances. Not many steal G1 races at longer distances.

[facorsig]

The race track story was front page news here in Abu Dhabi today:

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090612/NATIONAL/706119827/1010

Sheikh Mohamed is a wise man and I would expect that he was involved with the decisions for the racing surfaces. I really doubt the selection was to create an advantage for local horses. He would like to see local thoroughbreds compete on the international circuits of UK, USA and elsewhere. I did see the new course when I went to last year's World Cup. This is a magnificent facility.

[Charlie D]

You may be right for a year or two, but after connections see their horses get drubbed, as our turf horses do overseas, they will probably wise up.

The US turf horses get drubbed because their abilities are not equal to or better than the horses they face CJ. The same is in affect on Dirt, the oversea Dirt horses are not equal to or better than say the Curlin, RA's, MTB's out there.

If you can find a way to bring the RA, MTB, Sea the Stars horses together like the Pro-Ride seems to have done, then surely this is good for racing and it's future as you are probably breeding from horses that should be bred from.

[46zilzal]

I vote for training differences: many a Euro import once tutored in NA racing here comes around just fine.

[Charlie D]

Those types races were few and far between at the classic distances. Not many steal G1 races at longer distances.


Spot on CJ, so surfaces like Pro-Ride should not put the Classic winning Dirt horse at a disadvantage.

[46zilzal]

Spot on CJ, so surfaces like Pro-Ride should not put the Classic winning Dirt horse at a disadvatage.
The jury is still out on that surface as being a good one.

[Charlie D]

The jury is still out on that surface as being a good one.

Of course the jury is still out, it has only been in place for a short term.



I hope RA continues to beat allcomers and Jess Jackson does not let his predjudice get the better of him come Classic time as i think RA will go well against the oversea competition just like Curlin did on the surface.

[46zilzal]

Of course the jury is still out, it has only been in place for a short term.



I hope RA continues to beat allcomers and Jess Jackson does not let his prejudice get the better of him come Classic time as i think RA will go well against the oversea competition just like Curlin did on the surface.
RA needs the front, a complicit track surface and NO ONE to stare her down early to keep on going.

[Charlie D]

RA does not need to lead and who is to say she cannot wire on Pro-Ride. The Pamplemousse did it easily enough if i remember correctly


It's the competition that stops the horse wiring, not the surface.

[46zilzal]

RA does not need to lead and who is to say she cannot wire on Pro-Ride. The Pamplemousse did it easily enough if i remember correctly


It's the competition that stops the horse wiring, not the surface.
Keep believing that and while you're at it tell Riva Ridge, Easy Goer, Cougar II and countless others......and then all those hyped I can't run on real dirt types that have been exposed when moved off the rubber.

[Charlie D]

Keep believing what, that a superior horse like Curlin, RA, MTB will beat iferior horses like Asiactic Boy,Well Armed Pioneer of the Nile, General Quarters.


Keep beliveing that Zarkava, Youmzain need to lose a leg for Duke of Marmalade and the rest to win Arc.


I'll keep believing that it is the horse ability is what wins thank you.

[PaceAdvantage]

RA needs the front, a complicit track surface and NO ONE to stare her down early to keep on going.Can you believe this garbage? Now we've reduced RA to some cheap speedstress who needs to take her track with her and can't stand early heat....

Did you even WATCH the Preakness? (She had early heat and won).

Have you ever LOOKED at her PPs? (She has won from off the pace).

How many different racetracks has she won on already?

Your comments here are simply absurd. It seems that Rachel Alexandra has become, for you, the D. Wayne Lukas of horses. Your personal (albeit fraught with error) punching bag.

[cj]

RA does not need to lead and who is to say she cannot wire on Pro-Ride. The Pamplemousse did it easily enough if i remember correctly


It's the competition that stops the horse wiring, not the surface.

Actually, it can be some of both.

[cj]

The US turf horses get drubbed because their abilities are not equal to or better than the horses they face CJ. The same is in affect on Dirt, the oversea Dirt horses are not equal to or better than say the Curlin, RA's, MTB's out there.

If you can find a way to bring the RA, MTB, Sea the Stars horses together like the Pro-Ride seems to have done, then surely this is good for racing and it's future as you are probably breeding from horses that should be bred from.

Some of that is true, some not. I tend to think it has more to do with the medication and shipping than ability. The same horses that get drubbed in Dubai, Hong Kong, and Japan do well against some of the top Europeans when they ship here.

[rastajenk]

Getting back to the original post, why does Dubai need an "all-weather" surface? How many weathers do they have?

On another point, doesn't anyone else find this wretched excess, along with their wretched anti-Semitism, thoroughly stomach-turning? Remember the women's tennis tournament this winter, when they gave the boot to an Israeli player, and officials tut-tutted and tsk-tsked, but played on? I wish all sports would boycott these bastards: tennis, golf, but especially my favorite one, racing horses. I abhor the fuss made over the World Cup every March, but especially so now that they upped the excess to other-worldly levels.

Thanks. Now, back to your regularly scheduled artificial surface debates. :mad:

[slewis]

It's incredible how everyone posting on this thread misses the real danger here.


The Arabs do NOT have parimutuel racing in Dubai. They could care less about handle. It is the betting handle that drives the success of American thoroughbred racing. If the powers in racing continue to move in the direction of synthetic surfaces, the game is doomed.

I dont know one truly big professional player who plays it even remotely.
I'm sure there are, but they are few and far... and the consensus with the weekend warrior is, well, I'll let California's numbers speak for thenselves...dismal

If the American owner, breeder and trainer fails to see these danger signs, go right ahead and play right into the Poly-Track grip of death.
The racing elite have already gotten sucked into the breeders crap, I mean cup, two years in succession.

As the handle(s) continue to fall... as the fields get smaller and smaller.... as the mid to small size owner gets more and more disgusted, and as you fail to a attract new blood into betting (and eventually owning) the sport goes bye-bye.
The "Wise Sheik" as one postee blesses him, could care less. Our oil money funds his breeding operation. No gambling needed. No purses needed to pay the bills. Phipps and Janney have more money then they could fail with in 5 lifetimes, and heck, they're doin' they're part...... they dont care about gambling and purses and owners and trainers.

Slots and Pro-ride.... yeah, that's the answer to the future of the game.
Fools.

[Charlie D]

Go look at the winners on Classic day and i think you should find the Pro- Ride winners are Sired by Elusive Quality, Real Quiet, Harlands Holiday, Unbridled Song. Look at Colonel John, Pioneer of The Nile and you should find Tiznow, Empire Maker

The owners of the winners of the US dirt Classics should be rubbing thier hands and looking forward to SA 2009 and the progeny these horses produce.


If the US handicapper can't find winners at say SA, Hollywood, Del Mar, Golden Gate then he's not going to win playing at Belmont, Saratoga etc either, i reckon, so it's maybe better leaving the money in his/her bank account.

[toussaud]

screw it all, everyone races on turf 100% from now on and deal with it.

[JeremyJet]

Sheikh Mohamed is a wise man

I wonder how smart he would be if he didn't have all that oil money.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[slewis]

Go look at the winners on Classic day and i think you should find the Pro- Ride winners are Sired by Elusive Quality, Real Quiet, Harlands Holiday, Unbridled Song. Look at Colonel John, Pioneer of The Nile and you should find Tiznow, Empire Maker

The owners of the winners of the US dirt Classics should be rubbing thier hands and looking forward to SA 2009 and the progeny these horses produce.


If the US handicapper can't find winners at say SA, Hollywood, Del Mar, Golden Gate then he's not going to win playing at Belmont, Saratoga etc either, i reckon, so it's maybe better leaving the money in his/her bank account.

Really?

And you have the stats to back up these statements?

Why has the game not taken off on the west coast???

And I suppose you know players who account for significant handle in the US, or anywhere for that matter that are willing to play into this.

Many times on the synthetics, when horses approach the 3/6th pole, there are 4, 5 or more horses that can win the race... very exciting racing... not so good betting... and since the bettors pay for the entire party, maybe people like you should take very serious note as to what works for them and what does not......and Poly track does not..... sorry.
Of course, if oil imports subsidized horse racing as it does in the dessert, it wouldn't matter what the bettors do, would it?

[JeremyJet]

Getting back to the original post, why does Dubai need an "all-weather" surface? How many weathers do they have?

Michael Dickinson did a great job brainwashing the "wise" Sheikh.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Charlie D]

Slewis

Since when do you need stats for an opinion please.


Not so long ago there was no synthetic in UK, go watch amounts traded on Betfair at Lingfield, Wolves, Kempton, Southwell

Handicappers adapt via hard work and it is hard work wins at this game i believe, not whinging bud and if you don't like synthetic there is plenty Dirt and Turf racing for you to get stuck into at NYRA, CD, GP etc, etc

[slewis]

Slewis

Since when do you need stats for an opinion please.


Not so long ago there was no synthetic in UK, go watch amounts traded on Betfair at Lingfield, Wolves, Kempton, Southwell

Handicappers adapt via hard work and it is hard work wins at this game i believe, not whinging bud and if you don't like synthetic there is plenty Dirt and Turf racing for you to get stuck into at NYRA, CD, GP etc, etc

You dont Charlie...(need stats)... Im just pointing out that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT working.... not for the bettors and not even for who it was intended, the horses.

It's failing quickly....as is racing in the mandated juristiction...CA.

Id say 9 out of 10 top trainers I speak to are negative on racing over it...

Thanks for the response...

[Charlie D]

Well Slewis, those trainers won't be interested in 10 million on offer in Dubai next year , but i'm sure trainers from countries like UK, South Africa, Autralia, HK, Japan will fill in for them and thank them for the money.

[facorsig]

On another point, doesn't anyone else find this wretched excess, along with their wretched anti-Semitism, thoroughly stomach-turning?

You may be surprised to know that Arabs are also Semitic therefore they will not be anti-Semitic! I think you are referring to the Arab opposition to the creation of a Jewish homeland, Israel. Yes, they oppose that one. It's a minor point which I fell for early in my time living in the UAE.

[Sid]

Who needs stats when you can toss around logic like this?

Many times on the synthetics, when horses approach the 3/6th pole, there are 4, 5 or more horses that can win the race... very exciting racing... not so good betting.

What are the stats for handle on turf races, which you've just described? How many horseplayers bounce around the simulcast menu betting grass races with just the kinds of finishes you described? How many people who enjoy horse racing get turned on by the opposite of "very exciting racing" . . . a vew endorsed in yet another argument that seems to turn on the perception of what major bettors might wish to see when viewing a race not as a race but as a coupon to clip? How can California's problems suddenly be conflated into a poly-wars argument that sounds vaguely like all the players of the DiMaggio era (average career maybe six years) complaining about their careers being shortened by night baseball (an era with average careers much longer)? Do you see anyone blaming Churchill's horse shortage on dirt? Do you see NYRA's continual festival of statebred racing blamed on dirt?

[Bobzilla]

I'm sure there will continue to be American participation in the Dubai World Cup though in the long run it will be predominately by those with established credentials on our AWSs, as well as our turf stars. We will probably see mixed results from these participants. In the short run I can see those with G1 credentials earned on our variety of dirt surfaces accepting the invitation but with results that might leave the connections scratching their heads and wishing they hadn't made the trip.

In time, I would hope, it may be universally understood that the tracks we call "dirt", with all their various compositions, are not interchangeable with the collective varieties of synthetic. It's true that over the years we've seen some special horses, such as John Henry, who possessed an admirable surface ambidexterity. However I'm of the opinion that most horses do have a preferred surface on which they can be expected to maintain their G1 form. I'm not sure it's fair to expect them to maintain that same level of performance when taken off their preferred surface. It's nice when they can but I think some judge too harshly when they cannot.

I'm not knocking synthetics by writing this. I'm only stating that it's my belief that synthetic racing is as different from dirt racing as is grass racing. Though a few might make a successful transition in the G1 Dirt to G1 Synthetic direction, I think this will prove over time to be the exception and not the rule. I realize we've seen success in this country with the G1 Synthetic to G1 Dirt direction but I suspect this is an easier transition for many of our main track performers in the U.S., many of whom who are probably better suited for dirt racing in the first place and only established reputations as "synthetic specialists" because that's where their connections are based.

[Bruddah]

Well Slewis, those trainers won't be interested in 10 million on offer in Dubai next year , but i'm sure trainers from countries like UK, South Africa, Autralia, HK, Japan will fill in for them and thank them for the money.

It has to be Christmas somewhere. In my best Dickens impression of "Tiny Tim", God Bless them one and all. Gobalization of Horse Racing is for American Blue Bloods, Desert Sheiks and European Aristocracy.

[46zilzal]

Can you believe this garbage? Now we've reduced RA to some cheap speedstress who needs to take her track with her and can't stand early heat....

Did you even WATCH the Preakness? (She had early heat and won).

Have you ever LOOKED at her PPs? (She has won from off the pace).

How many different racetracks has she won on already?

Your comments here are simply absurd. It seems that Rachel Alexandra has become, for you, the D. Wayne Lukas of horses. Your personal (albeit fraught with error) punching bag.

Energy distributions told a very different tale. Very glad she was rested before those distributions turned to injury. That is what they showed, pure and simple

[46zilzal]

If the US handicapper can't find winners at say SA, Hollywood, Del Mar, Golden Gate then he's not going to win playing at Belmont, Saratoga etc either, i reckon, so it's maybe better leaving the money in his/her bank account.
BALONEY they are completely different and the logical approach, which works by the way, is to go after them KNOWING that difference by track energy profiles...you should know that from Pace n Cap's many many references to profiles.

[andymays]

When talking about Santa Anita everyone should keep in mind that the Pro Ride (Hocus Pocus Junk in my opinion) produced nearly 50% carryovers which is unheard of. The Pro Ride at Santa Anita is a fraudulent surface in my opinion. Pro Ride is consistently inconsistent!

[Charlie D]

BALONEY they are completely different and the logical approach, which works by the way, is to go after them KNOWING that difference by track energy profiles...you should know that from Pace n Cap's many many references to profiles.



KISS

[Tom]

Keep believing that and while you're at it tell Riva Ridge, Easy Goer, Cougar II and countless others......and then all those hyped I can't run on real dirt types that have been exposed when moved off the rubber.

Since when is breeding an acceptable tool for handicapping. YOU posted here that it is not. Now you try to use it to make a point? Well, you made one. :lol:

[Tom]

KISS




Perfect~!:D

[Bruddah]

RA does not need to lead and who is to say she cannot wire on Pro-Ride. The Pamplemousse did it easily enough if i remember correctly


It's the competition that stops the horse wiring, not the surface.

Now that is truly funny when it comes to plastic dirt. I have seen many races where CLASS meant absolutely nothing on plastic. I'm sorry sir but that is not so. A horse's familiarity(training) and running style mean more in those races.:lol:

[Charlie D]

Now that is truly funny when it comes to plastic dirt. I have seen many races where CLASS meant absolutely nothing on plastic. I'm sorry sir but that is not so. A horse's familiarity(training) and running style mean more in those races.:lol:


Really, strange that, the 1st, 2nd and 4th (should have been 3rd imo) did not need fimiliarity in last years Classic then isn't it??

:lol:

(Sorry PA, but if someone is going to give me one of those rolling things , i'm giving one back )

[Charlie D]

BTW, Bruddah, if you think this or that, it's fine by me, if someone thinks man made Class designations are useful, it's fine by me, if someone thinks track profiles are useful, it's fine by me and so and so on.

I won't insert these :lol: at you or them, as i know there is more than one path to winner finding.

I prefer the KISS methodology btw :)

All the best

[slewis]

Who needs stats when you can toss around logic like this?



What are the stats for handle on turf races, which you've just described? How many horseplayers bounce around the simulcast menu betting grass races with just the kinds of finishes you described? How many people who enjoy horse racing get turned on by the opposite of "very exciting racing" . . . a vew endorsed in yet another argument that seems to turn on the perception of what major bettors might wish to see when viewing a race not as a race but as a coupon to clip? How can California's problems suddenly be conflated into a poly-wars argument that sounds vaguely like all the players of the DiMaggio era (average career maybe six years) complaining about their careers being shortened by night baseball (an era with average careers much longer)? Do you see anyone blaming Churchill's horse shortage on dirt? Do you see NYRA's continual festival of statebred racing blamed on dirt?

First I'll address the state bred comment....

Im not sure what problem you have with NYS bred races but the state breds have improved 1000 percent in the 10 yrs Ive been attending this place full time. Without the state bred program, NYRA would be down to 4 day a week racing as well, and as Ive pointed out on other posts, thats the beginning of the end of the small owner/trainer.
Secondly, the state breds are good. They are not to be taken lightly anymore.
The incentives the state has offered owners has improved the quality considerably and this improvement will only continue.
We are (in NY) at a place where the avg state bred MSW winner will run approx. the same beyer as a MSW open co. winner at a track like Monmouth, and that's pretty decent.

Now Sir, I gave you a perspective on poly-track betting that, not only I view, but is shared by many many of the biggest bettors in the sport.
Then, take the consensus of the avg weekend warrior and most are negative on it.
If what I'm saying is BS, then you're handle in CA (and most poly juristictions) would be on the constant improve as people become more interested and handicap it.... but that's not that case.

With turf racing... you know what you're getting... Horses are much more consistant. I bet turf races all the time..... I looked carefully at POLY for a reasonable period... it's not even remotely comparable.

I am NOT a spokesperson for the gambling community nor am I for the trainers that train on major circuits in the USA.
But you can take it to the bank when Im telling you Ive spoken to MANY MANY MAJOR PLAYERS in both regards, and the consensus is a big thumbs :ThmbDown: down.

Is that a good enough "stat" for you... Sid? or would you like to call my bluff on this one.

[the little guy]

The biggest bettor I know, and I know some big bettors, told me unequivocally that he won't bet synthetic surfaces.

I do know some big players that bet them, but by and large, most don't.

[46zilzal]

Since when is breeding an acceptable tool for handicapping. YOU posted here that it is not. Now you try to use it to make a point? Well, you made one.
These INDIVIDUALS hated off going and could not run on it. THE INDIVIDUAL not theoretical breeding

[Sid]

Im not sure what problem you have with NYS bred races but the state breds have improved 1000 percent in the 10 yrs Ive been attending this place full time. Without the state bred program, NYRA would be down to 4 day a week racing as well, . . .
Thank you for reiterating my point. The fact that NYRA "would be down to 4-day-a-week program" has nothing to do with synthetic surfaces. But if one dislikes synthetic surfaces one apparently has a free ride in blaming horse shortages on synthetic surfaces -- except at NYRA or Churchill. After a few days of reading here, though, I've figured it out: the trend toward horse shortages is a result of takeout, and therefore purses, being too high.

Secondly, the state breds are good. They are not to be taken lightly anymore.
The incentives the state has offered owners has improved the quality considerably and this improvement will only continue.
We are (in NY) at a place where the avg state bred MSW winner will run approx. the same beyer as a MSW open co. winner at a track like Monmouth, and that's pretty decent.
See above.

Now Sir, I gave you a perspective on poly-track betting that, not only I view, but is shared by many many of the biggest bettors in the sport.
Then, take the consensus of the avg weekend warrior and most are negative on it.
If what I'm saying is BS, then you're handle in CA (and most poly juristictions) would be on the constant improve as people become more interested and handicap it.... but that's not that case.
The main reason California handle isn't what it should be is the old joke that a typical California race is five horses, three of which should be coupled entries but are not. We can toss anecdotal arguments back and forth, but one thing all legitimate studies indicate is that just as nothing is as good for a cold as chicken soup, nothing is as good for handle as full fields.

With turf racing... you know what you're getting... Horses are much more consistant. I bet turf races all the time..... I looked carefully at POLY for a reasonable period... it's not even remotely comparable.
I bet turf races all the time, too. I believe I posted that one reason I do is that multiples horses tend to be in contention as the field comes to the wire -- and meanwhile that same phenomenon was posted as a reason for NOT betting synthetic surface races. I strongly suggest that there is indeed consistent track play at Lexington and at Arlington, and that the nature of the consistent track play is vastly different between the two, much like natural dirt from track to track. Don't you miss the days when everybody ran on dirt and horseplayers -- and connections -- whined about the mysterious surface at Churchill?

I am NOT a spokesperson for the gambling community nor am I for the trainers that train on major circuits in the USA.
But you can take it to the bank when Im telling you Ive spoken to MANY MANY MAJOR PLAYERS in both regards, and the consensus is a big thumbs down.

Is that a good enough "stat" for you... Sid? or would you like to call my bluff on this one.
You post what you see. So do I.