Bill Bennet

[Suff]

You know Bennet right? DC Lawyer. His Brother is a High powered Lawyer in DC as well. They own a Chi-Chi Hotel in DC that all the Dignitaries stay at when they come to DC.

He was George Bush's Drug Czar. Somewhat of a MORAL Authority. He's always on the AM News programs telling everyone what they do wrong. Drafted the Drug laws that send people to Federal Prison for looong stretchs for posses'ing Drugs.

He's a Jerry Falwell type with out the Bible.

Anyone happen to see the story he lost 8 Million Bucks on Slot machines in Vegas? yea... a Real Junkie. $500,000 credit line at a handfull of Casinos. Likes to pull for $500.00 a roll. A real action junkie. I know the Arguement thats one's legal the other isn't. But still....you'd think the guy would have a little humility, and a little understanding of others. Instead,,,he Loads up on his FIX.....and Burys others with different Jones's.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7664-2003May2.html

[Suff]

I don't like those Post LINKs....they make you sign in to read thier material. Here's an MSNBC link.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/908430.asp?0cv=KB20

[JustRalph]

He has always admitted he gambled. Wash Post tried to make him look bad with this about 5 years back. He admitted it and they backed off. He has actually spoken out against state run gambling in the past. He is for "Private enterprise" running gambling institutions. He is against the state lottories for this reason too. He is a just a guy with lots of money who throws it away big. Reminds me of M. Jordan and his ten thousand dollar putts on the golf course. If you got big, you gamble big......
this is old news. He has never spoken out against gambling so it's no big deal. They are just trying to make him look bad. He looks bad alright...........like a bad gambler.............

[Suff]

The Gambling aint the story.... to me.

I never saw M. Jordan on "This week with Brinkley" Pontificating on "traditional values".

Thats the Company he wants to align himself with?

"Hey.... Jordan and Pete Rose do it"



Side note.......Hard to make a case......This Guy and others in this income Bracket.......... So desparetly need a TAX CUT. He could pull the one arm bandit....what? 20-25 more times under Bush's Tax cut plan. Sounds Fair.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
The Gambling aint the story.... to me.

I never saw M. Jordan on "This week with Brinkley" Pontificating on "traditional values".

Thats the Company he wants to align himself with?

"Hey.... Jordan and Pete Rose do it"
Side note.......Hard to make a case......This Guy and others in this income Bracket.......... So desparetly need a TAX CUT. He could pull the one arm bandit....what? 20-25 more times under Bush's Tax cut plan. Sounds Fair.

But Suff.........I might get to pull it a couple of times (at the smaller machine) if we get the tax cut!

[Tom]

And if we don't get a tax cut, we can all pull it :rolleyes:

[Suff]

I went out to Dinner with a group of Friends and co-workers last night. 7 of us. Couple of Union Carpenters, TinKnockers and Iron workers. Union Iron Workers In Boston have a Base rate of $33.50 an hour. Saturdays and Sunday are Double time. The only hour they get time and a half is thier ninth. If they work 6-4. They get straight time 6-2....time and a half from 2 to 3, and double time from 3 to 4. Double time after that and any Saturday and Sunday

Anyway...this group is working 70+ hours a week. They're grossing about $3300.00 a week. One of them is single, Claims zero. I asked what his take home was for that Gross. He said about $2100.00

Thats quite a whack.

[Lefty]

Suff, yeah, that's quite a whack, so I hope he's not one that doesn't want a tax cut cause some rich guy might get more.
And Bennet gambles. Hey, so do I.

[boxcar]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
I went out to Dinner with a group of Friends and co-workers last night. 7 of us. Couple of Union Carpenters, TinKnockers and Iron workers. Union Iron Workers In Boston have a Base rate of $33.50 an hour. Saturdays and Sunday are Double time. The only hour they get time and a half is thier ninth. If they work 6-4. They get straight time 6-2....time and a half from 2 to 3, and double time from 3 to 4. Double time after that and any Saturday and Sunday

Anyway...this group is working 70+ hours a week. They're grossing about $3300.00 a week. One of them is single, Claims zero. I asked what his take home was for that Gross. He said about $2100.00

Thats quite a whack.

Yeah...and this is the type the socialists think are the "rich". You ever notice how Libs never define this term "rich" -- they just toss around this term and "millionaires". A guy grosses about $3,330. per week at his trade makes about $170,000. a year. I'd bet my last dollar that guys like A-Maze and LJB would consider this kind of worker to be "rich" -- even though he's not even close to being a millionaire.

Boxcar

[Lefty]

Boxcar, I think Al Gore ,during the last election campaig, DID define rich as anyone who made $100,000 a yr, cause, he said, "In ten yrs they would be millionaires."

[JustRalph]

Try this one......

A couple of years back my wife busted her ass thru the summer quarter in her job as a Rest. Manager trying to make her quarterly bonus gross 20G. It was a lofty goal but she made it.
$20,002 to be exact. The check arrives and after the taxes she clears $9,997. That really puts it home........

[MikeDee]

I don't care that the guy gambles or how much, that is his right to live his life as he wants,but what bothers me is he is just another one of those moralizing right wing republicans who spend their time on TV telling us how to live and preaching family values.

You look under the hood you find out that they are no diiferent then many of the people that they are telling you not to be like.

Do as I say not as I do!!

[Figman]

I don't understand your concern Mike. Do you think that someone that gambles cannot have high moral and family values? Gambling precludes these values for some people but for a vast majority gambling is a recreation. I think more of Bill Bennett now that I know he is a gambler as that makes him more a "regular guy" and less a "politician."

[Dave Schwartz]

In my opinion, the problem is not gambling. The problem is EXCESSIVE gambling such that it destroys a lifestyle and the lives it touches.

Gambling is "one of the great joys of life," when done in moderation.

Personally, I do not lose well and could never tolerate wagering if it did not lead to long-term profits. But, (if one can afford it) is LOSING $200 per week really any different from SPENDING $200 per week on greens fees?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Jen]

Okay, boys and girls. Time for a check on the Perspecto-meter. $171,000. is a lot of money. Here I am, college educated, holding a management position for 20 years and my hourly rate is about the same as that iron worker’s. Granted, I don’t work 70+ hours per week but it wouldn’t matter if I did because those in management are not eligible for overtime pay. We’re exempt. I don’t even have the option to make that kind of dough even though I work over 40 per week. Plus, I’m pretty much at the top of my pay scale so that raises are small or nonexistent considering the current economy.

I’m going to assume (possibly erroneously) that this guy did not go to college and I realize that I don’t know how old he is or how long he’s been doing what he’s doing but personally, I think that’s a lot of scratch without the benefit of a higher education. I’m not knocking your guy, he works hard and I don’t think that I’d want his job but his wage has “union” all over it. I’ve been of a creeping opinion that unions are pricing the U.S. out of the market. We all complain about jobs going overseas but U.S. companies pay high wages and high taxes. You need to remember that your employer not only pays taxes on the money they make but also pays taxes on the money you make - the higher the payroll, the higher the taxes. What’s the incentive for companies to keep production here when unions have wrangled such high wages out of some sectors of business?

Please realize that I don’t work in an industry with unions so I am not just a complaining “management” worker. I think I’ve asked a fair question.

Jen

[Jen]

Your wife may have been able to take home more of that bonus. There is a payroll option to recognize that money as a "bonus" and not her "salary." It usually gets you more in your paycheck. It doesn't mean, however, that you won't be owing come April 15th.

Jen

[Lefty]

Mike Dee, well, you know what?: I prefer a moralizing rightwinger who gambles with his own money on his own time than a liberal Democrat that keeps raising my taxes, gives N. Korea nuclear capabability, and uses the Oval Office of "the peoples" house as a brothel, lies to everyone, and then is defended by moralizing demos who approve of "gambling" with yours and my tax money with their various "ponzi" scheme social prgms. Yeah, I prefer the rightwinger.

[anotherdave]

“Over 10 years, I’d say I’ve come out pretty close to even,” Bennett says, though he wouldn’t discuss any specific figures.

A casino source, hearing of Bennett’s claim to breaking even on slots over 10 years, just laughed.

Well, he sounds like a politician.

AD

[Lefty]

"the gambler he broke even, he died in his sleep."
from the song The Gambler

[Jen]

I personally don't give a rat's behind about his gambling. That's between he and his family and his bank account. As long as he doesn't direct moral judgments about gambling towards others.

I also didn't really care about Clinton's sexual activities. I care that he lied but I don't think the question should have ever been asked. I personally think that the Republicans wasted a lot of time, energy and money on something that was really between Bill, Hillary and Monica (a consenting adult.) I think all that energy would have been better spent on questioning Clinton's policies, e.g. North Korea or factual corporate reporting. There was such a big stink made about Monica that nobody (I mean regular citizens) probably noticed what else was going on. And since the economy seemed to be going like gangbusters, nobody really cared.

Remember that it takes more than just the president to run the country. I think that all of our leaders should take a bit of the blame. They got distracted and lost site of the ball.

Jen

[Rick]

My question is how did he get that much money to blow. It wasn't by being a drug czar was it?

By the way, from talking to many people at different income levels over the years, I'd say that anyone who's "rich" is anyone who makes more than you do. Then when you make that much, you're not rich because you've decided that you have greater needs. Actually, it amazes me how much money upper middle class people spend on useless crap. The richest people I've known actually lived pretty modestly and the yuppies I've known would never have enough money to get by no matter how much they made. One couple I knew in California moved three times in five years just to upgrade their neighborhood. They also had the largest collection of credit cards (all maxed out) that I've ever seen. On the other hand, a multimillionare couple I knew lived in an apartment and drove a 30 year old car.

[Lefty]

Jen, 2 things: Clinton had the affair in the Oval office. Reagan thought so much of the office he wouldn't even take off his coat in there. If Clinton had taken it to his private quarters think a lot less would have been made of it.
2. Janet Reno appointed Ken Starr to look into all this. The Dems just didn't like what he found.

[Suff]

Talk Unions all day long.........tired of it.. But Consider, please if you will.


The Overtime is sporadic. You might go on a Job for 19 months. The last three months....The Buildings Developer Might be close to certain completion point. Structured in his contract is a $10,000,000.00 Bonus if he completes the building ahead of schedule. He pays out 3 million in overtime to achieve 7 million in bonus. Captialism. You Make, We make.

The building trades are sensitive to the economy. If Building slows...Contractor lays you off. Would you or Could you work for a company that says...Go home...without pay...Come back in three months.

Contractor has a PUSH.... he calls the UNION HALL.... I need 15 Iron workers for a Month. The next day. 15 qualified and experienced Iron Workers show up. Each provided 4 years of highly specific schooling and completion of a 4 year apprenticeship program... Of which.. The CONTRACTOR PAID NOTHING. The Union...through dues.. Builds and operates its own school. When the month is up....The men are gone. These men, This training, This experience is a BARGAIN at $33.50 an hour.

Union employees receive no Sick days.. No personal days, No Vacation time or pay. You don't work...you get no pay.

Union Building trades....Work outdoors,,,In Rain, Snow, Sleet.. ZERO degree tempatures. In any extreme condition imaginable. 200 feet of the ground.....100 feet under the ground. It takes an amazing amount of toughness, agility, strength and Balls..to do what they do.

UNION BUILDING Trades are the most Dangerous JOBS in the country. 500,000 are injured each year. They are Killed in the line of duty at a rate that is 50 times higher than a Police offer.

Union Building trades Make immeasurable contributions to Society. Through the Buidling of Bridges, Tunnels, Roads, and Power Plants. Non-Union companies with outaccess to the trained Labor pool UNIONS provide ... Could not handle these projects.

Cost of Living. Union rates in other Parts of the Country are substanially lower. In Boston...$33.50 is a "Living wage".
When a 3 bedroom Cape in a Middle Class suburb of Boston sells for $425,000.00. Union Iron Workers Struggle like any working man and women to provide a home and a decent life for themselves and thier families.

America is Free enterprise. Just like Michael Dell can build a computer for $500.00 dollars and sell it to you for $1000.00... Its free enterprise. That same theory applies. We have the right to unionize. We have the right to collective bargain. We have the right to negotiate with our employers. Thats our AMERICAN RIGHT.

If someone thinks they can make more money consrtucting Buildings with a cheaper labor pool in Mexico. Don't let the door hit you in the ASS. This is America baby.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Figman


Figman.

A month ago, I sent you a couple of e-mails to the address you sent me. I never heard back. Did I use the wrong address?

mdudley.boston@attbi.com if you'd prefer to respond privately.

Thanks

Mike

[Jen]

Fair enough. My conclusions were based on a full-time job - say in production or manufacturing. I have next to zero experience with construction. Seems to be a different sort of beast. And yes, I do get benefits since my job is not "temporary."

I guess I'm suffering from a snobbish attitude that my brains are somehow worth more than his brawn :) .

Jen

[Jen]

2 more things:

1. Most Republicans have some respect for JFK despite that he was a Dem. Do all his sexual escapades that have now come to light really take away from his presidency? Or was ignorance bliss? I'm not saying what Clinton did wasn't stupid or disrespectful but in the whole scheme of his presidency it was kinda small potatos to warrant all the hoo haa.

2. Ken Starr was supposed to be looking into White Water not Clinton's adultery. Seems to me he totally overstepped his bounds. And personally I think Linda Tripp should have been fined or something for tape recording her conversations with Monica. That was against the law not what Clinton did with Monica. Instead, folks chip in and buy Linda a new face!

Hey, on many issues I'm on your side. I just think the time and money could have been better spent looking at the adminitrations' policies than on the philandering husband, that's all.

Jen

[Suff]

Originally posted by Jen
Fair enough. My conclusions were based on a full-time job - say in production or manufacturing. I have next to zero experience with construction. Seems to be a different sort of beast. And yes, I do get benefits since my job is not "temporary."

I guess I'm suffering from a snobbish attitude that my brains are somehow worth more than his brawn :) .

Jen

Jen....Done alot of things in my life. At one point I had my Series 6, 7, 22 and 63 securties liscence. I dealt with strictly Regulation D Investors. Reg D Investors as defined by the securities and exchange commission must have...

$300,000.00 in income in the previous two years and reasonable evidence to propurt they will have it the same in the following year.

A net worth of $3,000,000.00 or more.

If they meet the criteria,, They are eligible to participate in certain high risk ventures. Most if not all Venture Captial Funds require you to be a REG D investor to participate in thier offerings.

Where I was Born...and raised..and Live... I could throw two Rocks. One would hit Harvard.... the Other, M.I.T.

I've met alot of Very wealthy and Very well educated people in my life. And most of them...........were no great shakes in the "BRIGHT" department. They may be ruthless capialists, or they may great at "learning". But Money and education do not determine one's intelligence. IMHO. I met alot of very dumb people who were very rich, and I met alot of very poor people who were very well educated.

[superfecta]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns

If someone thinks they can make more money consrtucting Buildings with a cheaper labor pool in Mexico. Don't let the door hit you in the ASS. This is America baby. You are sadly mistaken about that Suff,since this is America,the economy will determine what a worker is paid,not any union or goverment entity.The labor pools in the united states are changing,and we better take heed of whats getting lost.Take that from someone who works in the field and sees it everyday in this part of the country.

[superfecta]

Originally posted by anotherdave
“Over 10 years, I’d say I’ve come out pretty close to even,” Bennett says, though he wouldn’t discuss any specific figures.

A casino source, hearing of Bennett’s claim to breaking even on slots over 10 years, just laughed.

Well, he sounds like a politician.

AD let Bennett get interested in betting horses,after all he talks like many horseplayers I see....we could use the money

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Jen
2 more things:
1. Most Republicans have some respect for JFK despite that he was a Dem. Do all his sexual escapades that have now come to light really take away from his presidency? Or was ignorance bliss? I'm not saying what Clinton did wasn't stupid or disrespectful but in the whole scheme of his presidency it was kinda small potatos to warrant all the hoo haa.

2. Ken Starr was supposed to be looking into White Water not Clinton's adultery. Seems to me he totally overstepped his bounds. And personally I think Linda Tripp should have been fined or something for tape recording her conversations with Monica. That was against the law not what Clinton did with Monica. Instead, folks chip in and buy Linda a new face!

Hey, on many issues I'm on your side. I just think the time and money could have been better spent looking at the adminitrations' policies than on the philandering husband, that's all. Jen

Point 1> JFK got very little done in reality. He was unable to persuade the Dems to vote for Civil Rights issues and he turned to the Republicans to help that get thru. Then he was working with the Republicans on tax reform but got almost nothing done before he died. The reason some Republicans (not this one) have respect for him is because his ideology would be considered Republican today. The Dem Party of Clinton is nothing like JFK's and that is why you have so many Blue Dog Dems in the south. They were more Republican in thinking but had to call themselves Dems to get re-elected. They are hold overs from JFK's era.
The reason I have no Respect for him is the crap that has come out about him since. His entire family is made up of criminals and Hypocrites. The family made their fortune bootlegging all over New England. It is a known fact. Everybody seems to forget that. If they were named Capone, do you think they would get any respect? They have much the same history.

2> Ken Starr was asked to expand into the Lewinsky thing by the Attorney General's office. He didn't just jump up and do it. Personally I don't care who's crotch Willie is Shoving Cigars into as long as it doesn't interfere with his job at the time. It did interfere with his job and he did it in a government building. This is documented. It also laid him wide open to blackmail and the like. I have seen Government employee's locked up for much less. I am talking prison. If any corporate CEO had done the same thing with an intern he would have been out on his ear.

The reason Linda what's her name never got pounded on the taping of phone calls is, there are several disparate court decisions that contradict each other about taping phone calls. I worked some cases that involved this (in a former life) and the landscape surrounding this matter changes after each case is tried. In much of the midwest there are at least 5 different cases that say as long as one party to the conversation is aware of the taping, it is ok. There are at least 5 other cases in 3 different districts where the contrary applies. It depends on what district court boundary you are in when you do it. It can be very complicated. For example, what if one court decision becomes law of the land in District A but in District C it doesn't apply. Now what happens if a person in C calls a person in A and records it? How about trying to decide the jurisdiction? Where do you prosecute? etc. etc.........it can be real ugly. But that is why Linda Tripp wasn't prosecuted to any real extent. The Prosecutor new all this but he let it go until she was run out of money and broke and then let it all die down. He got what he wanted....revenge. Directed at the hands of the Dem party in MD.

The bottom line is Clinton is traveling around the world making a gazzillion dollars a speech and Monica is hosting her own reality show. She is making big bucks too. Two of the most shameful characters in the history of our Government......and they profit from it. Sad....................

[Lefty]

JR, well said.
Jen, I know we are on same side on most things but not this one. I agree with JR. Most people think JFK saved the world during the Cuba crisis but that's not true either. Kruschev placed those missiles in Cuba because he wanted our missiles out of Turkey. He played JFK like the proverbial violin and got what he wanted. A man that can't control his lust makes a bad president for several reasons. i.e. the most important he sets himself up for the country to be blackmailed through him.
Now let's get back to subjects we agree on.

[MikeDee]

WOW this thread really took off since my lat visit

Figman - No I don't think that someone who gambles connot have high moral values, I believe they can.

What I resent is someone who makes millions telling me how to live my life, while he puts $8 mil through a slot machine and the tells me he broke even and his gambling is not a problem. At the very least he is a liar as we all know that putting that much money through a machine the best he could do is lose the machine take. I agree with you that makes him more or a regular guy, a regular guy with a gambling problem, but I don't expect regular guys to tell me how to live. If you are going to make money preaching virtue, then to gain my respect you better be lillly white and squaky clean.

Lefty - I don't approve Clintons' sex habits, but he wasn't the first president who had affairs and he won't be the last. Many presidents had other women even before before JFK, they just didn't have FOX news and CNN to give us the blow-by-blow coverage.

We can have a discussion on N. Korea in another thread, all they really want is some attention and a few bucks. We should be able to buy them off with a couple of the billions (of our tax money) that Bush wanted to give Turkey so our troops could pass through their country.

I'm not to sure what social ponzi schemes you are referring to, there have been so many of them from both sides of the isle, but I do know that I was far better off economically during the Clinton years then I have been under the current administration.

[Jen]

I really hope the irony of you bagging on Bill Bennett's gambling while on a horse race handicapping site is not lost on you.

BTW, I don't recall that he preached about gambling and he's always said that he likes to gamble. By your assessment, nobody would ever be able to make any commentary about the standards or morals by which we live. I think that would leave us in a pretty sorry state.

Jen

[Dan]

Like Dr. Howard Sartin said, "The cure for gambling is....winning." Bill Bennet was losing because he was playing losing games.

Last night, as we should all expect, the moral crusaders started up again about the evils of gambling. So get ready for them to throw Horse Racing in there, too.

Probably everyone on this chat room knows that going to the track means analysis and preparation before you get there. Yes, the gambler's will be there but just like the stock market we have done our homework.

Like in developing my system this past year - I've tried it out only six times. Six times in one year! Four trips to the OTB, one trip to Lone Star, and one trip to Charlestown. If it was losing - my wife and I left before the losses mounted up. I don't like to lose money and will not throw it away.

Of course the moralists morons will not understand this. So, get ready for a new gambling crusade starring the rehabilitated Bill Bennett.

I really don't understand this country anymore.

BL :cool:

[Lefty]

Mike, don't buy Bill's books. He is not making anyone listen to his preaching. You were better off during Clinton because Clinton came into an economy that was coming around and starting to flourish. The last part of Clinton's adm the economy was starting to falter under the wght of all tax increases. Bush took over this faltering economy and WHAM 9-11 and the war on terror. I don't think you can blame the economy on Bush. Not in any viable way, that is...

[MikeDee]

Jen - Mr Bennett made millions on the concept that self-gratification taken to excess was wrong. You are correct he never mentioned gambling, but he certainly violated the spirit of his morlaizing if not the letter. No I don't see see my comments as ironic, since I'm not the one giving advice on how to live.

Lefty- I'll agree that President Bush is not entirely to blame for our current economy, but that horse is rounding the turn and is at the top of stretch. Can't play that tune for 8 years.

[Suff]

Originally posted by superfecta
You are sadly mistaken about that Suff,since this is America,the economy will determine what a worker is paid,not any union or goverment entity.The labor pools in the united states are changing,and we better take heed of whats getting lost.Take that from someone who works in the field and sees it everyday in this part of the country.



Exactly. No one obligates a contractor to be signatory with the Trade Unions,,,, Its an option a Company makes. We set our price. They either buy or they don't. Your under the impression a company HAS to use Unions... The don't. Companies choose to. Are you saying I don't have the right to set my price? Thats Unamerican.

And ....No disrepect intended... But other parts of the country should heed what we do here.... Not the other way around. I know. I work with Men everyday from all parts of the country, that can't get a decent wage in thier Home State. They have to travel 1500 miles or more to provide for thier Families. I should heed that?

The Six New England States (MA. ME, NH, VT, CT and RI)
Consistently lead the Nation in

Median Income
Real Estate Values
Employment rates
% of Citizens with Health Insurance
% of Citizens that own a Home
% of High School Graduates
% Of College Graduates
Lowest Crime rates
Lowest Divorce rates
Lowest Incaceration Rates

and on and on. Like it or not... these States are Highly Democratic and Highly Unionized. Our Quality of Life might be the best available on this Planet. Maybe other States should be doing the heedin.

[Jen]

Just curious - what are the immigration rates in the 6 states? It seems possible that your cheap labor pool may be smaller than in some states such as my state of California. I'm not saying that's right or wrong (immigration, that's a whole other debate) but its' possible that some of those figures are so high because those states don't suffer the transient nature of some immigrants, particularly illegal ones, and that your workers have more leverage. Possible??

BTW, I was telling a friend of mine about our union discussion and he quipped that I should be careful "they'd find me and I'd wake up with a horse head in my bed." :p

Jen

[Suff]

Originally posted by Jen


BTW, I was telling a friend of mine about our union discussion and he quipped that I should be careful "they'd find me and I'd wake up with a horse head in my bed." :p

Jen

Times of Changed.....Mess with the Unions..You'll end up with a lawyer in your bed....and in your Credit report, and in your trash cans, and in your telephone wires, and in your criminal record, and in your business. We use the same tools ruthless Captialists use. People...for only reasons they know....resent when people unite to better thier position.

Call your local Cable Company and say..."hey of you did'nt charge so much...I could buy a Better car.

Call your local Power Company and say..."Hey of you did'nt charge so much..I could take an extra weeks Vacation"


But let a Guy make a healthy weeks pay for a Hard weeks work,,,and people say...UNIONS are killing the Economy.

Believe me....No working Man or Woman is affecting the economy by being Over paid. T

[Suff]

Originally posted by Jen
Just curious - what are the immigration rates in the 6 states? It seems possible that your cheap labor pool may be smaller than in some states such as my state of California.
Jen

I lived in Santa Monica for a year...and in Carslbad for 18 months. I'm very Familiar with the issue in So, Cal.

But, still.... Mississipe, Louisianna, and the Sun Belt States are Mired with Social issues caused by MASS Poverty. An Uneducated Populace, and a Local Government that is Pro-Business. To me...Trickle up economics makes more sense than trickle down.

[Tom]

OK, so a bunch of people unite to better thier position in life. But who gives them the right to do it at the expense of other people?
Suppose I come up to Boston to do some construciton work and bring up a non-union crew? you want to tell me who the hell gave the union guys the right to stop me from doing it?

[superfecta]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
Exactly. No one obligates a contractor to be signatory with the Trade Unions,,,, Its an option a Company makes. We set our price. They either buy or they don't. Your under the impression a company HAS to use Unions... The don't. Companies choose to. Are you saying I don't have the right to set my price? Thats Unamerican.

And ....No disrepect intended... But other parts of the country should heed what we do here.... Not the other way around. I know. I work with Men everyday from all parts of the country, that can't get a decent wage in thier Home State. They have to travel 1500 miles or more to provide for thier Families. I should heed that?

The Six New England States (MA. ME, NH, VT, CT and RI)
Consistently lead the Nation in

Median Income
Real Estate Values
Employment rates
% of Citizens with Health Insurance
% of Citizens that own a Home
% of High School Graduates
% Of College Graduates
Lowest Crime rates
Lowest Divorce rates
Lowest Incaceration Rates

and on and on. Like it or not... these States are Highly Democratic and Highly Unionized. Our Quality of Life might be the best available on this Planet. Maybe other States should be doing the heedin. But in the real world we know what happens most of the time.Price determines who gets the job a majority of the time.Or at least there is trade offs.Maybe spend a little more and get a better product or one that fits the customer better.
Since unions are a major force in your area,it would make sense the rate of wage would be higher.It also means alot of benefits you mention.But the trade off is higher taxes and higher costs of living.What I mean about what needs to be heeded is that more places are not unionized,so the union is not as stong in these areas.So cheaper labor costs are taking hold .What you see in your area will not last forever,it most likely is the last of its kind.And the age of trademanship passed down to the next generation is dying out as well,no longer do families continue to do what their forefathers did before them.Like it or not,the cheaper labor is taking up these trades and doing them less expensively than what the union has established is 'fair value".At comparable quality.
So that puts union labor at a disadvantage,so I can see why they fight so hard to keep their slice of the pie.But they need to heed that they need to compete instead of forcing themselves into jobs(such as govt. contracts)otherwise they will continue to get smaller.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Tom@HTR
OK, so a bunch of people unite to better thier position in life. But who gives them the right to do it at the expense of other people?
Suppose I come up to Boston to do some construciton work and bring up a non-union crew? you want to tell me who the hell gave the union guys the right to stop me from doing it?

No one. Come. Bring a crew. Why assume any would stop you?
Trade Unions Focus on. Large Projects. Jobs that require a Crew are almost entirely non-union.

[Suff]

Originally posted by superfecta
.
Since unions are a major force in your area,it would make sense the rate of wage would be higher.It also means alot of benefits you mention.But the trade off is higher taxes and higher costs of living.What I mean about what needs to be heeded is that more places are not unionized,so the union is not as stong in these areas.So cheaper labor costs are taking hold .What you see in your area will not last forever,it most likely is the last of its kind..

Its lasted since the Mayflower Bumped into the Plymouth rock....and Unions here are stronger than ever. And continue to grow. And in this part of the country....things are passed down more riggedly than you think. Longshoreman Union cards are passed generation to generation here. 3rd, and 4th generation tradesmen are common. Your making alot of assumptions there. I think you'd be surprised how strong things are. Matter of fact. We are under no immediatte or unforseen threat at this time. We offer the best available, cost effective labor force available. Bottom line

[superfecta]

Whatever you say bud....I happen to think different,but to each his own.

[Tom]

Try to hire a non-union rew around here and you're likely to have a fire, a car accident, something to let you know that you don't do that sort of thing.
Unions might be good for its memebers (might is the operative word here - many are not) but they do no good to someone on the outside. They drive up prices and drive down quality and productivity. Throw in the occasion broken leg or missing person and you have mafia-light.

[Dave Schwartz]

We don't need unions... we don't need unions.

I heard that for years in the gaming industry of Nevada. ALways from people who were afraid that if they didn't say that somebody in management might think they felt differently and that meant - Time to be fired.

Yeah, we won't need unions just as soon as big business commits to dealing with its employees fairly and paying a just wage.

Now, I am not saying that there are not union abuses. We all know they happen. But you don't have to look very far to see the impact of no unions... just go to the grocery store (here in Nevada) where they are all non-union and make $8 per hour while their counterparts in California make $16.

Truth is, I don't have a problem with them making 1/2 as much. My problem is that $8 per hour is a poverty-level wage and no trained person should work a 40-hr week in this day for $320 (before taxes).

I recall when the Reno Hilton was sued (class action) about 15 years ago for not providing insurance to their "temporary" help. They had people that had worked 40+ hours per week for 5 years and were still called "temporary." When they lost the suit, they hired more people and cut them all back to 2 days per week, called them seasonal/temporary and the beat went on.

This would never have happened with a union. And, it should never have happened at all. Large corporations have no sense of fairness or justice. They won't do anything that they are not forced to do.

So, while unions are not a perfect way, they are a far better way than trusting the corporate big boys to do the right thing.

Just my opinion.


Dave Schwartz

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
I recall when the Reno Hilton was sued (class action) about 15 years ago for not providing insurance to their "temporary" help. They had people that had worked 40+ hours per week for 5 years and were still called "temporary." When they lost the suit, they hired more people and cut them all back to 2 days per week, called them seasonal/temporary and the beat went on.


Sears did this at their Distro Center in Columbus Ohio. They had a ton of people who were part time for years. 34 hours a week or so. Some benefits. The Union came in and they went to full time and laid off who they didn't need. The pay went up and people were happy for the year that they worked. Sears sold the place and relocated, and all the jobs were gone. It can be a double edge sword. I believe there are good unions, but I can't think of any.............off the top of my head.

Somebody spoke of the Mafia-light unions. I had a relative that ran a company building bridges and power plants in the City (New York) He ran the company for about 5 years. He can tell some stories about having to keep at least 15G in the petty cash safe because local union reps would show up in the middle of the day to advise him that some how the company had done somebody wrong or exceeded some quota and 5G would fix everything. He said this went on for the whole 5 years he was there. When he left to take a new job........ a couple of the Union reps showed up to say goodbye and thank him for working with them so well. They presented him with a Union Jacket. Nice Jacket in a box with his name engraved on it. He takes it home (Upstate) in the box without wearing it. He took it out to show his wife the next morning and inside the jacket was an envelope full of cash. Interesting way of doing business up there.

[Suff]

BTW.... Non-Union wages in this area are comporable to Union wages. The Biggest difference is the safety measures employed on Union Projects are heads above non-union Projects.

And Quaility? Surprised to hear you associatte lack of quaility with UNION work. To My Knowledge UNIONS are known for quality work.

Safety and quality are the two Major differences in a UNION project.

These are the two things non-union contractors try to shave to increase profit Margin. The Wage issue is not the sticking point in our Contractor Negotiations. Its Quality Tools, Quality Craftsmanship and Safety.

[MikeDee]

I have never belonged to a union, and I worked in management of a large corporation all of my work life,but I frimly believe that all of us, union and non-union, are all better off because they exist.

If there were no unions this would be a 2 class society the rich business owners and the poor workers. Most of us would be living in company towns, shopping at the company stores and only getting enough health care to keep us able to work. There would be no retirement funds, company paid vacations, or child labor laws, just work until you die.

Allmost all of the benefits we all take for granted were were brought about by union contracts with management. Even in non-union companies the only reason they have the pay scales and benefits they have is because management will only pay what they have to keep the unions out.

Are there abuses in labor unions? You bet there are, but there are abuses in big business, government, and in any endeavor. Whenever humans are involved there are liars, cheats and crooks that try to steal and take advantage.

If you don't believe this just keep buying your products made overseas, by workers who work 18 hours a day 7 days a week, making a couple of dollars a day and see how long this wonderful lifestye we have continues.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by MikeDee
If there were no unions this would be a 2 class society the rich business owners and the poor workers. Most of us would be living in company towns, shopping at the company stores and only getting enough health care to keep us able to work. There would be no retirement funds, company paid vacations, or child labor laws, just work until you die.Allmost all of the benefits we all take for granted were were brought about by union contracts with management. Even in non-union companies the only reason they have the pay scales and benefits they have is because management will only pay what they have to keep the unions out.

Are there abuses in labor unions? You bet there are, but there are abuses in big business, government, and in any endeavor. Whenever humans are involved there are liars, cheats and crooks that try to steal and take advantage.

If you don't believe this just keep buying your products made overseas, by workers who work 18 hours a day 7 days a week, making a couple of dollars a day and see how long this wonderful lifestye we have continues.

From: Suff
Safety and quality are the two Major differences in a UNION project.

Mike: Coming from a family of miners in the last two generations (as in Coal) I cannot tell you how right you are in your post. Great point.

Suff: The same holds true with your post. The two points go hand in hand whether it be a coal miner or a Iron Worker. I remember working on an Air Force base where the Iron workers weren't wearing their safety belts. They were building a hospital. A Union guy would drive around checking on the workers. he would get way up in their ass if he caught them not wearing their belts. He would call us (Air Force Cops ) to escort them off base for the day if they gave him any guff. They would lose a days pay. He would lecture them on how hard their union worked to get the safety stuff for them. He wouldn't let them get away with not wearing the stuff.

[Jen]

I understand the points on safety, benefits, and the balance between corporate greed and fairness to the employees. I guess the trouble that I have is that in some cases it seems that the contractual nature of unions don't provide an incentive for an employee to do any better than any other employee. What happens to the idea of merit when all your salary increases are preordained. I'm talking about real permanent, full-time postitions not the cyclical ones such as construction.

We used to have a UPS driver (Teamster) that delivered to our company. The man was nearly incompetent. We complained bitterly multiple times and he was finally put on a different route. In chatting with other drivers we learned that this guy's nickname was Midnight because that's how long it took him to do his routes - 'til midnight. UPS couldn't think of firing him because the union would have been all over them but the man was probably costing them money with all his overtime. Companies are nearly forced to keep on an incompetent employee and pay him the same a great employee. Plus, they are unable to reward the great employee with a better salary - it's not in the contract. I think it's often the same with teacher's unions. Can't get rid of the bad ones - can't reward the good ones.

Plus, what happens when a company really does experience economic hard-times? Would the union really allow them to hold off on scheduled wage increases? Our business has slowed (I know, I pay the bills and see the bank account balance.) Nobody has lost their job but nobody's getting a raise right now. I heard about American Airlines but I have a little question. I know management paid themselves bonuses (stupid) but had they received any raises over the troubled years? If they had, doubley stupid but if they hadn't then you have to remember that they don't have a contract, they can't make overtime and their salaries may have been just as stagnant. I really don't know that answer but you have to look at both sides.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't understand unions. Maybe I just work for a good boss. However, isn't our economy based on capitalism? A bit of Dog-Eat-Dog and all? Those that do well I would hope get rewarded. Those that don't should get fired and find another job.

Jen

[Jen]

Oooo look, I'm a Journeyman now!

Jen

[Tom]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz


Truth is, I don't have a problem with them making 1/2 as much. My problem is that $8 per hour is a poverty-level wage and no trained person should work a 40-hr week in this day for $320 (before taxes).

Dave Schwartz

What if the service they provide for 40 hours a week is only worth $320? Or $200?
When trains went ot diesel power, the unions still had them hire on coalmen to sut there all day.
Some jobs are not suited to providing a living for anyone.
Only some income.

[Tom]

Maybe in the construciton field, but in manufacturing, quality and productivity are not so highly valued. It was UAW quality and prodcutivity that allowed the foreign car makers to get such a strong foothold in our country. Granted, stupidity and greed by GM also played a major role, but to this day, the autoworkers have a difficult time knowing what quality is.

[Lefty]

But, but, didn't we start buying Japanese cars cause they were cheaper and better than our own union made cars. And didn't the competition spur our guys to do better. I think competition is wonderful-no matter where it comes from
Unions, kinda like women, hard to live with 'em, can't live without 'em. A delicate dance between corps and unions, waiting for ea. one to lose a step...

[Dan]

I've never worked for a union company but I can tell you that non-union companies can freely do what they want when it comes to employees with health issues.

They can justify anything during layoffs to get rid of employees who have health issues thus skirting the ADA. In the last layoff I was in five of us with health issues were let go with the typical 'this isn't personal'. Yea, BS. Five top workers let go to alleviate medical claims.

That is what I call immoral, un-American, and not patriotic. America is not the loving and caring nation we think we are. Greed rules here.

BL :cool:

[Jen]

Medical or worker's comp? Having a medical claim shouldn't make any difference - they're paying your insurance premium not your bills. Now, if you're missing loads of work due to a medical problem, well... how kind and gentle can a company be if an employee isn't at work? I'm not sure where you draw the line.

Worker's Comp is just a different story altogether. Some are legit and necessary but it's fraught with fraud and the insurance rates are insane.

Obviously, BL, I don't know your story so I'm talking off the top of my head here.

Jen

[Jen]

Truth is, I don't have a problem with them making 1/2 as much. My problem is that $8 per hour is a poverty-level wage and no trained person should work a 40-hr week in this day for $320 (before taxes).

Isn't this just another never ending cycle? Employee needs more money to offset high cost of living, employee gets more salary, company raises costs to offset wage increase, goods cost more, higher cost of living, employee needs more money...

Don't look at me. I don't know what to do about it. Just looks never ending that's all.

Now, if we all got a tax cut... :)

Jen

[Dave Schwartz]

Buddy,

Oh, now you've done it. You've touched the biggest sore point I have... the unconsiconable condition of out health care system.

The problems are fueled by the insurance industry! Doctors only "reccomend" treatment for a patient. Final approval comes from some doctor that decides whether or not a particular treatment is "viable."

What makes this whole situation even worse is that he has the insurance best interests at heart! Making it worse still, he never sees the patient, just the records. And just to add real insult-to-injury, he is probably a mediocre doctor, else he'd be making the big bucks in his own practice.

If you have group insurance but do not work for a GIANT company, your (or your family's) particular claims experience may weigh directly on whether or not your employer can get affordable coverage (or coverage at all).

In a former life (in a galaxy far, far away; about 30 years ago) I sold life and health insurance. I once had a company that I sold a "mini-group" policy to that had terrible claims experience. One of their employees had a wife with cancer AND a child with a luekemia. Their medical bills for the previous year were around $400k, a sizable chunk in 1973.

The insurer refused to renew their policy, and, of course, nobody else would underwrite such a risk (and provide first-day coverage). The employer wound up dropping dependant coverage. As he told me, "It was that or fire the employee."

There was an article I read a few years ago about what is commonly referred to in the insurance biz as "the death spiral." This applies mostly to individual policies.

Imagine that a major company has a policy that has been in force for several years. With individual policies typically they can only increase the rates on a "class basis." That is, they'd have to raise the rates for everyone in a particular age, sex, smoker, etc. class.

What they do (and it is completely legal) is create a new policy, with slightly better coverage and (maybe even) lower rates. They then invite the best risks from the old policy to migrate to the newer, better, (possibly cheaper) policy.

They continue to do this, over a period of time, migrating the good risks and leaving the porr risks. Ultimately, they wind up with the old policy being made up entirely of poor risks (and a few people that are just too stupid to change).

At this point they begin raising the rates to astronomical proportions. How high? One guy in the article had diabetes, and was on dialysis. His premium went to $3,600 per month. As you can imagine, he could not pay it and lost the coverage.

The truth is, that, except for those who work for companies like AT&T, none of us have it any better. We could all wind up without health coverage. Even those at AT&T can lose their jobs and, hence, their health coverage.

Sorry for going on and on, but this is a perfect example of The Big Boys not dealing fairly with their fellow man. The industry needs serious policing. Not government-sponsored health coverage, but government regulated.

Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Dan]

Originally posted by Jen
Medical or worker's comp? Having a medical claim shouldn't make any difference - they're paying your insurance premium not your bills.

Obviously, BL, I don't know your story so I'm talking off the top of my head here.

Jen

That's true about the insurance premium but most companies have very close relationships with their insurance providers. But it is also the mentality of corporations to have the perfect workers.

And no is was not due to missing a lot of days of work. That is the out for most people today - "Well, they are having to take off too much time to get well." "Serves you right to get laid off!" "What's a company to do?" That's why people just blow it off and don't think about that - UNTIL it happens to them.

As in my case, to go from a very successful career (six figure income) to the unemployment rolls because of being diagnosed with an uncurable disease - is hell on earth. Not only for myself but my family. I don't even need to discuss what it is like to try to find another job while undergoing treatment.

Would a union have helped me? I don't know if a union could have or not. But I'll tell you - if or when it happens to you - get ready for a real journey.

BL

[Dan]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Buddy,

Oh, now you've done it. You've touched the biggest sore point I have... the unconsiconable condition of out health care system.



Dave,

Thanks for sharing that. Makes sense to me. That just proves that companies get rid of the risks or "damaged goods" as soon as they get the opportunity.

Interesting that after I was diagnosed I was ostracized by managment, started getting poor reviews, and was overwhelmed by calls from head hunters. Someone was giving my name out!

The human resources department knew all about my dealings with the insurance company. Especially, when they refused to pay for treatment they had authorized earlier.

Thanks for proving my point.

BL

P.S. Noticed I didn't mentioned universal healthcare coverage for everyone. Since Americans freak out if they hear the 'S' word - Socialized medicine. "I've got to be 'free' to pick my own doctor!" Well, if you have no options you will take treatment to stay alive from anyone.

[Dan]

Sorry everyone but I didn't mean to be a buzz killer on this thread talking about my situation. I was just wondering if a union could have helped us in our situation. Humor is always the best medicine and I usually don't talk about these things with anyone.

But I guess this gets me back to what this topic started off with - Bill Bennet's gambling. Why am I on here and why do I handicap? Because I (we) need to make money since I have very few options right now. And to me, horse racing is not gambling but one of the biggest intellectual challenges I have ever pursed in my life.

Peace,

BL :cool:

[Jen]

My heart goes out to you. Truly. I have know idea what I would do in your shoes. I'm not sure what I would expect my employer to do either, though. I work for a small business that could not absorb the cost of paying me and someone else to do my job if I were out. ?? I just don't have the answer. I had over $24,000 in medical expenses not covered by my insurance just last year so I have a tiny inkling of the money situation but, luckily, I could continue working.

Insurance companies and their rates? Yeah, they suck! However, it's just capitalism. They have shareholders to make happy. If they don't show a profit, their stock goes down and so does everyone's 401K. That's the economy we're all complaining about.

I'm not so sure that socialized medicine is your answer, however. I don't know if you saw my post on the Canada thread but the jist was that in Toronto you would have to wait 9 months to get an MRI. Whatever is wrong with you could cripple or kill you by then. There are only 4 MRI machines for a city of 4 million. Makes me wonder what else they don't have and can't afford - new drugs, new treatments, new equipment? How quickly did you need your treatment?

I'm not sure what's to be done and obviously, I'm not the brain to figure it all out.

My best to you and your family.

Jen

[Jen]

No buzzes were killed in the postings of this thread. We're all real people in real situations. Except maybe Amazin :p.

Jen

[Suff]

Originally posted by JustRalph
From: Suff
[B]. He would call us (Air Force Cops ) to escort them off base for the day if they gave him any guff. They would lose a days pay. .

Ralph... I'm an Air Force Veteran. I was with the Security Police. I was Stationed at Camp New Amderstam in Zeist , Holland. I sat in a Lil box, No bigger than a Telephone booth. I had a Loaded M-16, Three Bananna Clips of Ammunition and a SideArm. In the Hanger next to me were Two F-15 Eagles.. Fully Armed with 4 Heat seeking Missiles, and Two Pilots Sleeping on Cots next to the Planes. Its Called "On-Alert status".

They could be at 15,000 feet and in Air to Air Combat inside of 5 minutes. Every so Often when anything at all Happened in Europe... They'd throw the Grenade Launcher on My M-16, Stock me with Ammo, and put me in a Fox Hole on the Base perimeter.

I remember one time an Armory had been Robbed in Germany somewhere. There were reports they were going to attack a US Base somewhere in Europe with thier Booty. .... I was out there with three days of K-9 rations. A box of Grenades and a Box of Bullets. Typing this made me remember how scared I was. When its real, and its just you and the Boogieman.....The words "I want my mommy" are right there on the tip of your tongue. LOL.......

[Dan]

Originally posted by Jen
No buzzes were killed in the postings of this thread. We're all real people in real situations. Except maybe Amazin :p.

Jen

Jen,

Thanks for your responses back and concern. Didn't know that about Canada. Guess you would be up the creek in that situation.

I don't know the answer either. Like in our situation I'm paying for Cobra coverage right now almost $700 a month. That eats up about two unemployment checks.

I was in that same situation the first year with extra medical expenses of over $15,000. What was good about that was I finally was able to deduct it from our taxes. :)

It's a mess. Congress doesn't care because I think they are covered for life. This adminstration doesn't care. Anyone bringing up health care nowadays are lableled a liberal - i.e. traitor and unpatriotic.

Wasn't that photo op on the carrier great? Here's our troops who risked life and limb being told how much they are appreciated. But didn't they realize that this adminstration is cutting the hell out of VA benefits? That's real appreciation for our troops isn't it. The ultimate in hypocrisy. (And yes, I'm being cynical.)

As I've said before, I don't understand this country anymore.

BL :cool:

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
Ralph... I'm an Air Force Veteran. I was with the Security Police. I was Stationed at Camp New Amderstam in Zeist , Holland. I sat in a Lil box, No bigger than a Telephone booth. I had a Loaded M-16, Three Bananna Clips of Ammunition and a SideArm. In the Hanger next to me were Two F-15 Eagles.. Fully Armed with 4 Heat seeking Missiles, and Two Pilots Sleeping on Cots next to the Planes. Its Called "On-Alert status".

Suff.......I didn't know we had so much in common....been there done that. Loring Maine, Nuke loaded Bombers. It sucked! I have spent plenty of time in those phone booths!
I did Priority B alert planes in Ca in early 80's.
I also went to the Army Combat School at Camp Bullis. You having flashbacks yet?

http://www.justralph.com/ramprat_1.jpg

Oh...yeah....now that Bill Bennett is out of gambling the casino's are going to be laying off..............

[Suff]

Originally posted by JustRalph
.
I also went to the Army Combat School at Camp Bullis. You having flashbacks yet? ..............

Camp Bullis ,,yup....During Texas Rain season. Remember the place was so small the had no Airmens club or NCO club or officers club? They had one place....Called the "All ranks club"... I recall it was a big white wooden buidling at the end of TENT ROW. Draft Beers for .75 ... Another thing about Camp Bullis. The DEER......... Hundreds of them everywhere.

http://www.justralph.com/ramprat_1.jpg

Oh...yeah....now that Bill Bennett is out of gambling the casino's are going to be laying off

[Suff]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns


Oh...yeah....now that Bill Bennett is out of gambling the casino's are going to be laying off


Not if thier UNION...thier not!!!

[Jen]

Oh...yeah....now that Bill Bennett is out of gambling the casino's are going to be laying off

Not if their UNION...their not!!!



Didn't you just make part of my point there? A company has to keep union employees whether business can support them or not? That's surely not capitalism!

Jen

[Suff]

Originally posted by Jen
Didn't you just make part of my point there? A company has to keep union employees whether business can support them or not? That's surely not capitalism!

Jen

I was Joking Jen!!! Relax.....

[MikeDee]

Dave there is no question that something has to be done about heath care in this country. They have uniform federal laws on, saftey, pensions. There needs to be some basic rules that companies must follow on heath care.

I worked my entire work life for a major corporation. Last year the company decided to cap the amount it would spend on health care for each management employee and each management retriee. My out of pocket health care monthly cost went up 193%. Of couse they couldn't do this to the union as health care is a contract agreement. First time in the companies history (over 100 years) that management gets poorer benefits then the rank and file.

I guess I should condsider my self lucky that they pay at all.

Buddy - our hearts go out to you, keep fighting, you are in our prayers.

[Jen]

I was Joking Jen!!! Relax.....

Okey, dokey. Just checking...!


MikeDee - I understand what you're going through. My employer is changing over to a Defined Benefit Plan for health insurance. We haven't had the meeting yet but I believe that means he will guarantee a dollar amount rather than a percentage towards a premium. We'll actually have more choices in carriers and levels of our out-of-pocket. Fortunately for me, my boss said that he would raise my salary enough to cover any difference (told you I had a good boss! Helps to have worked for one person for over 20 years, I guess.) Still, I haven't had a raise in a couple of years but close enough.

However, I perfectly understand why he (and I suspect your company) made this change - to stablize his costs. Blue Cross just this May raised their rates...AGAIN. Even the youngest employee covered by the HMO option went up 20 bucks a month, my age on the PPO went up 50 bucks! My company's premium bill went up $1,000.00 per month! That's $12,000.00 annually, folks. We're a small company with about 45 employees and we pay about $7,500.00 monthly - $90,000.00 annually.

Don't even get me started on worker's comp rates! We pay $5,000.00 per month (and that's after an initial deposit, too.) Rates are based on your payroll dollars as well as the type of job. Pay your employees well and you pay higher rates. The carrier audits your payroll. If you go over your estimated payroll costs then they get you with a higher bill retroactively.

I think most employees have no idea of the costs of running a business - rent, insurance, inventory, payroll, supplies, repairs, taxes, legal fees, accounting fees, utilities...the list goes on and on. I pay the bills. Our business can pay upwards of $200,000 per week. And we're a small business!

If you all recall, most businesses are not in great economic shakes right now. It's very hard for businesses to just absorb increasing costs by laying them off on customers when the customers ain't buyin'. Your company's Union workers have their insurance costs stablized irregardless of your company's current economic situation. How nice for them! Rather than everybody's rates going up a little, managment's went up a lot! Charming! Your company is over 100 years old? My best wishes for its continued health!

Jen

[Lefty]

Us old folks are stuck with what we've got but for the future of this country we desperately need medical savings accts to encourage competition in the mktplace, to encourage consumers to shop for best price; to encourage consumers to not run to the dr for "every little thing." And to encourage consumers to pay for their own dr bill for something minor. When insurance pays, when the govt pays, people overuse, fraud also becomes a factor and medical costs are driven through the ceiling.

[Jen]

Regarding worker's comp - our company has had maybe 6 claims in 25 years of business! Not exactly high risk and still insurance costs that much.

Jen

[Pace Cap'n]

Philly Nude Models May Wear Union Label

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/nude_models_union

[Dan]

Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
Philly Nude Models May Wear Union Label

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/nude_models_union

Good one!

:D

[GR1@HTR]

Bill Bennet playing cards:
http://www.thestranger.com/specials/bennett.html

[Suff]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jen
Okey, dokey. Just checking...!


I was thinking...after I posted....":That I was Just Joking"...It really was'nt that easy to tell I was Tongue in cheek there Jen.... My apologies....You'd have to know my personalitiy....and that is hard to do on a Message Board. But I was....Just Kidding. Thanks

Suff

[Jen]

No worries!

Jen

[Tom]

If ever there was an issue I swing towards liberal on it is health care. I firmly believe everyone has a basic human right to adequate and competent health care. I beleive the governmetn shoudl ensure that all health care needs are covered off the top of the spending - before any government salaries are issued, before anything goes to fund the House post office, before anything goes to the senate dinning room. There is enough money to ensure no one does without prescriptions or needed surgery. We could take care of everyone's halt care needs just off the sickening waste our "leaders" generate.
In fact, I think the the congress should give everyone the exact same plan they have - that is only fair.
What I would like to see is everytime a president goes out on a campaign trip, how much badly need medicine that money could have bought our elderly. A president out campaigning is the same thing as an employee playing the horses on You Bet onhis office computer at work - it is stealing.

[MikeDee]

Tom - I am probably more liberal then you in general. But in a country as well off as we are it is a shame that we don't have some mim health care and some federal standards for companies provide health care to their workers.

"More choices for employees" I've heard that before, code words for more cost and lower benefits.


Why are health care cost going up so fast in the first place? Where is all the money going? drug companies? heath care equipment mfg? Doctors? Hospitals? No other segment of our economy has cost esclating like this:confused:

GR where in the hell do you dig up some of those articles you find
:)

[Tom]

Unfortunately the only most companies worry about anymore is ebitda evey month. No one is interested in growth and long term stability - the only thing that matters is this month's P&L statement. Curious that when a manufacturing outfit is in trouble, they hire financial people and not manufacturing people.
As far ar conservative/liberal goes, the raltionship is not linear - you don't have a left and a right side. It is like the equtor - a circle. The farther you go to the felt, the close you get to the right.
Congress is dem/rep wtihin, but in its relationship with the people the represent, it is Us/them.
We alsways have money for parades, state dinners, travel (fact-finding tours) and tons of other things, but never enough for grandma to have her pain medicine. Very sad.

[Jen]

Tom,

I'm sorry if I'm not very savy, but what the heck is "ebitda." I was trying to decipher it as a typo but I haven't a clue.:confused: :)

Jen

[Lefty]

We need 4 big things to happen: term limits for congress(doesn't make sense a pres. can only serve 2 terms and geezers in congress can screw us up forever)
2. Congress needs to be on same plan we are. Damn Dems cry against SS privatization. but that;s what THEY have.
3. Privitization of part of SS. Won't help me but do wonders for my grandkids.
4. Medical savings accts. Medicare has wrecked the health industry.

[Dave Schwartz]

Jen,


You don't know what "ebitda" means? Where have you been all these years? Living in a cave? <G>

Everyone knows it is what Latka used to say on Taxi.

Seriously, I haven't a clue and am checking my computer every 10 minutes to see if Tom has translated it yet.


Dave

[MikeDee]

Tom will have to chip he's the accountant, don't know what the letters stand for, but I believe it is a form of reporting corporate profits to make things look good when they are not.

Worldcom and Enron used it as well as other capital intensive companies, like telcoms that have to spend alot of money befoe any revenues show up.

Funny how we didn't need this accounting term until just a few years ago.

[Tom]

TYPAO? Wha-ME??? <G>
I am not an accountant- I am one whose life is madem iserable by having to answer to ebitdah and not common sense or logic in the work world. It stands for "Earning before interest, taxes, depreciation, and ....I forget the last one....
It is a line item on a P&L statement that everyone is focusing on.
It is the racing equivalent to wiping HSH of your hard drive after one losing race, and then downloading Netcapper for the second race. It is short-term all the way and almost always goaled way too high. It is the reason we do not spend $100 on preventive maintenance on our equipment because it will make June look bad.
(We can always replace the machine when it burns out for only $25,000 - but that is capital expenditures, not expenses, so it will not show up in ebitda!). It is the sanity that says, "I will save $1,000 this month even it costs me $20,000!)
It is like betting 10 races, hitting on 2 for a return of $24 (profit) and then complaining and changing your handciapping method because you wanted a minimum of $26 return of 30% winners.
Letting accountants run business is the reason we are in the doldrums right now - they do not have a clue as to what is going on. I tis like letting the offical scorers in MLRB have at-bats!
Count beans, noting else. Accountants should be score keepers, not strategizers (is that a word).
:rolleyes:

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

Oh. So, it had nothing to do with Latka? "Ebby-da?"

And you should put HSH back right now! <G>

Dave

[Tom]

thankyouverymuch!
dimadodip.