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CryingForTheHorses
06-06-2009, 07:09 PM
Just my opinion but I think Borel rode with to much confidance today letting his horse run much closer to the pace then before,Race riding and scrubbing with still a quarter mile to go blew the wind out of MTB sails,Dont blame Woodley for being pissed,Got a countryboy ride today..

Pell Mell
06-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Just my opinion but I think Borel rode with to much confidance today letting his horse run much closer to the pace then before,Race riding and scrubbing with still a quarter mile to go blew the wind out of MTB sails,Dont blame Woodley for being pissed,Got a countryboy ride today..
:ThmbUp:

Imriledup
06-06-2009, 07:13 PM
You must have not read my comment on another post. I said that when you are riding the favorite (and best horse on paper going in) you can never move too soon, you can only move too late. Calvin rode well, he just lost to a better animal on this day. Stuff happens.

andymays
06-06-2009, 07:15 PM
You must have not read my comment on another post. I said that when you are riding the favorite (and best horse on paper going in) you can never move too soon, you can only move too late. Calvin rode well, he just lost to a better animal on this day. Stuff happens.

I agree. What was up with Dunkirk on the lead?

chickenhead
06-06-2009, 07:16 PM
You must have not read my comment on another post. I said that when you are riding the favorite (and best horse on paper going in) you can never move too soon, you can only move too late.

or he read it and laughed. can't rule out that possibility.

Marshall Bennett
06-06-2009, 07:19 PM
Looked as if Calvin really wanted to wait longer but Bird was tugging at him to go and instead of fighting him he let him run . KD was in a simular situation with BB last year , to a greater extent , and the results were much worse . Just an opinion .

cmoore
06-06-2009, 07:19 PM
I don't think Mine That Bird was as cool and as calm as his previous races...Bailey said that Calvin was struggling with him on the backstretch a little and the horse wanted to run too early..When Calvin moved outside he was pretty much committed at that point. I stood up and yelled..Calvin, what are you doing????? Didn't bet on the race..Just wanted him to win..He had the lead but still had almost a quarter of a mile to go..Mine That Birds next start will be a huge race imo..He needs the time off..Desormeaux ran a great race..Congrats to him and Summer Bird..

Greyfox
06-06-2009, 07:25 PM
I agree. What was up with Dunkirk on the lead?

Yes, I bet Dunkirk. Was Velazquez going to win going wire to wire? By the way,
he still beat Mine That Bird.

Imriledup
06-06-2009, 07:27 PM
Yes, I bet Dunkirk. Was Velazquez going to win going wire to wire? By the way,
he still beat Mine That Bird.

Dunkirk is better than Da Tara, why not?

Speed and inside was great there today, he just got outrun, the guy rode a great race.

andymays
06-06-2009, 07:29 PM
Yes, I bet Dunkirk. Was Velazquez going to win going wire to wire? By the way,
he still beat Mine That Bird.


I bet Dunkirk too! Win only! And Borel didn't blow it he got beat!

cj
06-06-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't think either of the riders blew it. They rode the way the horse wanted to run, nothing wrong with that. Strangling a horse going pretty slow early already is no way to win at a mile and a half.

Velazquez gave a masterful ride on Munnings earlier, much to the chagrin of Garrett Gomez.

Imriledup
06-06-2009, 07:34 PM
This is why Calvin didn't 'blow it'.


Because if he goes on to win, no one says anything about the ride. No one would have said that he moved too soon and won anyway. People would have said it was a perfectly timed ride.

michiken
06-06-2009, 07:35 PM
If you watched the pre race clip of Desormoux and Borel in the jocks room, they were seriously joking around. It was almost like they had decided to set the race up for Kent.. I wonder how much money they won on the side?

DanG
06-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Fair result imo. Calvin is catching WAY too much flack here on a keen animal, but riders should be used to wearing flak jackets.

toussaud
06-06-2009, 07:36 PM
This is why Calvin didn't 'blow it'.


Because if he goes on to win, no one says anything about the ride. No one would have said that he moved too soon and won anyway. People would have said it was a perfectly timed ride.
but he didn't

DanG
06-06-2009, 07:37 PM
If you watched the pre race clip of Desormoux and Borel in the jocks room, they were seriously joking around. It was almost like they had decided to set the race up for Kent.. I wonder how much money they won on the side?
Free country to say anything short of ‘bomb on a plane, but I hope you’re not serious.

toussaud
06-06-2009, 07:43 PM
It's very simple actually

Borel was perfect for the derby. he virtually owns the mortage there


he was a good choice for rachael becuase he gets the best out of the horse and pimlico is not that different from any other track in the country

he was a horrible choice for the belmont. it's the one track where you better be familar with it.

Chip and company should have been beating down new york jock's doors.

Charlie D
06-06-2009, 08:20 PM
Summer Bird and Dunkirk

KD> Belmont


Mine That Bird

KD > Preakness > Belmont


Maybe the big effort in two TC races prior cost The Bird today.

ghostyapper
06-06-2009, 10:08 PM
You must have not read my comment on another post. I said that when you are riding the favorite (and best horse on paper going in) you can never move too soon, you can only move too late. Calvin rode well, he just lost to a better animal on this day. Stuff happens.

This is wrong. With a dead closer you can absolutely blow the race moving too early especially in a 12 furlong race. That theory of yours looks even dumber on turf.

Imriledup
06-06-2009, 10:21 PM
This is wrong. With a dead closer you can absolutely blow the race moving too early especially in a 12 furlong race. That theory of yours looks even dumber on turf.

Mine that Bird is not a 'dead closer'. He's a horse who is specifically ridden a certain way. MTB has speed, he's quick and can be used anyway the rider and trainer want him to be used. A "dead closer' is a very slow, one paced plodding type horse who takes a long time to get into stride.

Most races in America are won by speed or pace pressers, very seldom is a horse going to win from a million miles back. It happens, but not too often. Belmont was playing to speed today. Horses were winning wire to wire. If Calvin had waited a lifetime to move and was 10 lengths back at the top of the lane and flew and missed by a length, people would have his head for waiting too late to move.

Historically, the winner of the Belmont is a horse who is either on the lead, or someone who makes a move on the far turn and gets 'into the race' before they even hit the stretch. The pace of this race was slow despite what Tom Durkin was telling us. Horses were going 107 earlier on the card and if you don't look at the teletimer, you can see the riders were really restraining their mounts big time, they were going very slow 'visually'.

Calvin moved at the right time. When you have a horse you feel is much the best you don't want to wait until its too late. You make your move on the far turn and you let your animal run for home. If you lose, you lose because you got outrun, its not rocket science.

ghostyapper
06-06-2009, 10:31 PM
Mine that Bird is not a 'dead closer'. He's a horse who is specifically ridden a certain way. MTB has speed, he's quick and can be used anyway the rider and trainer want him to be used. A "dead closer' is a very slow, one paced plodding type horse who takes a long time to get into stride.

I don't think you can deny that MTB has had his most success (the tc races) as a dead closer, meaning he runs well off the pace then when it's time to make his move he flies. He is not like afleet alex in the belmont where he can slowly creep up to the lead and then at the top of the stretch just explode. His explosion comes when he's first asked to go. With this type of running style its critical not to move too soon, no matter how the track is playing or the history of a 12 furlong race.

I'm not saying he would have won because summer bird ran a great race, but MTB did not receive the best ride he could have.

Imriledup
06-06-2009, 10:37 PM
I don't think you can deny that MTB has had his most success (the tc races) as a dead closer, meaning he runs well off the pace then when it's time to make his move he flies. He is not like afleet alex in the belmont where he can slowly creep up to the lead and then at the top of the stretch just explode. His explosion comes when he's first asked to go. With this type of running style its critical not to move too soon, no matter how the track is playing or the history of a 12 furlong race.

I'm not saying he would have won because summer bird ran a great race, but MTB did not receive the best ride he could have.

I know what you are saying. I just think that its really hard to criticize this particular ride though. It all looks bad because MTB lost. I think the pace was so slow that he didn't find himself 20 miles back like in his last two races.

At any rate, if people want to criticize this ride, that's up to them. I'm choosing to say the guy rode fine and just got beat.

Robert Fischer
06-06-2009, 11:39 PM
he should have beat Dunkirk.
He let that one get away from him.

statepierback
06-06-2009, 11:52 PM
Rides like that was how he ended up with the mount in the first place. Casey Lambert rode a similar race at Sunland. It wasn't the ride the trainer wanted.

46zilzal
06-07-2009, 12:01 AM
I talked with our DRF rep after the race and he likened it to a blown ride we both called here last year and we almost mouthed the same words at the same time: "He moved far too early." At Belmont, unlike ANY dirt course in North America, there are still about 3/8ths to go when you are at the top of the lane.

Like I ALWAYS say about stone cold closers, they have three major problems:
1) They have nothing to do with the pace and are PASSIVE recipients of whatever pace presented to them. LIABILITY ONE
2) The rider, without that direct pace relationship, has to move at EXACTLY the right time: not too early or too late. LIABILITY TWO.
3) TRAFFIC can be a problem coming late. LIABILITY THREE

Many many GOOD horses just had too much to overcome too often with this style.

Bettowin
06-07-2009, 12:15 AM
Really, who thought when MTB turned the corner and was taking the lead that...........

1) Dunkirk would beat him (to me that was most impressive and hasn't Dunkirk turned the corner and shows he is what we thought he would be?)

2) That anyone would catch him and if some did would it be Summer Bird?

My opinion was that Charitble Man would run the race that Dunkirk did and either win or get second and Summer Bird would get a suck up 2nd or 3rd at best. Same as I thought in the Rebel:(

Gotta give major kudos to Tim Ice, Kent D and Summer Bird and give me a big thumbs down for not giving Summer Bird credit for the 2nd time.

I did bet a Birdstone exacta box and Dunkirk ruined that.


With all that, don't you think this was a great Triple Crown series?

I loved it.

Can't wait for next year.

46zilzal
06-07-2009, 12:19 AM
2) That anyone would catch him and if some did would it be Summer Bird?



Summer Bird's last two races, positionally, were much like Mind that Bird's.

banacek
06-07-2009, 12:28 AM
When they were interviewing Calvin after the race (still on the track with MTB), and asked about the move he said something like "It was unbelievable how slow they went" to explain. Was that what he said? Pace seemed reasonable to me..

DRIVEWAY
06-07-2009, 12:34 AM
Summer Bird's last two races, positionally, were much like Mind that Bird's.

Summer Bird had four races lifetime. Quessing game as to running style and adaptability to a given surface. Throw in Blinkers and the style becomes fuzzy. Add a professional triple crown experienced jockey to the mix and results are unknown.

The question was "Would the addition of blinkers put Summer Bird into a stalking position". Unknown answer now provided.

Summer Bird trained at Belmont. Summer Bird disliked the surface. ICE added toe grabs. Summer Bird adjusted/florished with them.

Past Performances and analytical tools don't know how to handle Blinkers, toe grabs and training over the track.

Tough game.

Greyfox
06-07-2009, 12:35 AM
My opinion was that Charitble Man would run the race that Dunkirk did and either win or get second and Summer Bird would get a suck up 2nd or 3rd at best.
.

We shared a very similar opinion and vision. :ThmbUp:
I envisioned Dunkirk trying to run down Charitable Man in the lane.
I had both Charitable Man and Dunkirk on top of both birds, and others.
For a colt that tried to go wire to wire, even in this paceless race, Dunkirk
did very well. My crystal ball didn't even see Mine That Bird picking up third.

Bettowin
06-07-2009, 12:40 AM
Summer Bird's last two races, positionally, were much like Mind that Bird's.


They were but Mine That Bird still closed better.

I haven't even looked at the individual times for the Belmont but I would think Summer Bird jumped way up today and MTB regressed a bit. That makes a lot of sense and I was a fool not to think SB could win.

For what it's worth, I learned a lot this year. Stuff that you guys probably already know but I picked out the "horses that could improve at big odds" in big races. The only )&%(#)(&) problem was I had them in 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the big spring races:)

Greyfox
06-07-2009, 12:43 AM
I don't think either of the riders blew it. They rode the way the horse wanted to run, nothing wrong with that. Strangling a horse going pretty slow early already is no way to win at a mile and a half.

.

1. First of all cj you can't have a lot of data to base on how to ride a horse in a mile and half race, but you are opining on how not to win one.

2. Was there anything in your numbers that would suggest that Dunkirk would be the pace setter? I can't find them in mine, and I do make my own.

I agree that Strangling a horse is usually not the way to go.

badcompany
06-07-2009, 01:39 AM
With Rachel out, it's back to the drawing board.

I like the Bird exacta.

Mine that Bird/Summer Bird

Good luck.

As someone who bet the Bird exacta, cold, I didn't have a problem with Calvin's ride. In fact, at the top of the stretch, I thought MTB was gonna leave the field in the dust. In fact, my main concern was that Summer Bird wouldn't get 2nd.

IMO, it was more a matter of the horse not having his A-Game, probably due to fatigue from the 1st two legs. I don't think it's an accident that the top two finishers skipped the Preakness.

Greyfox
06-07-2009, 02:10 AM
I don't think it's an accident that the top two finishers skipped the Preakness.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: A pretty astute comment.

jognlope
06-07-2009, 08:11 AM
MTB has such a heart; Calvin was rigth, Jerry Bailey said, to let him out a little at 8th, because to restrain him when he was edgy would have taken out of him. I didn't think he'd win, too long a distance for a tired little boy.

aaron
06-07-2009, 08:35 AM
I thought Borel may have moved too soon. His comment in the Daily Racing Form that the inside wasn't good was crazy. The only reason Dunkirk was able to be 2nd was because he was on the rail.The rail was good all day.

turfbar
06-07-2009, 08:47 AM
Not sure this is the right category but..... The software I use called The Master Hadicapper picked the Belmont exacta ,not cold, but they picked Dunkirk on top with Summer Bird 2nd the reason I say this is, the software completely thru out
thier Kentucky Derby pacelines did not use them ,so in fact used Dunkirk's Florida Derby paceline and used Summer Birds's ARK Derby paceline. Make of it what you will. If you used TMH 1st 4 horses you would have also hit the tri, not giant money but still a cash.......

Also you can't tell me that is the ride Calvin wanted ,he wanted the rail but those guys in NY are not stupid as I said b4 somewhere else on this forum ,"THEY" are not gona let you waltz into town with all your publicity and hype and give you the BELMONT.

Also what happened to the California contingentcy ya think they might
re-think the poly stuff:cool:

P.S. TMH also had Munnings on top and Gio Ponti........



Turfbar

rrbauer
06-07-2009, 09:24 AM
Just my opinion but I think Borel rode with to much confidance today letting his horse run much closer to the pace then before,Race riding and scrubbing with still a quarter mile to go blew the wind out of MTB sails,Dont blame Woodley for being pissed,Got a countryboy ride today..

It was the Smarty Jones' Belmont all over again. Premature move and then nothing left to finish that final 1/8 mile.

rrbauer
06-07-2009, 09:28 AM
Not sure this is the right category but..... The software I use called The Master Hadicapper picked the Belmont exacta ,not cold, but they picked Dunkirk on top with Summer Bird 2nd the reason I say this is, the software completely thru out
thier Kentucky Derby pacelines did not use them ,so in fact used Dunkirk's Florida Derby paceline and used Summer Birds's ARK Derby paceline. Make of it what you will. If you used TMH 1st 4 horses you would have also hit the tri, not giant money but still a cash.......

Also you can't tell me that is the ride Calvin wanted ,he wanted the rail but those guys in NY are not stupid as I said b4 somewhere else on this forum ,"THEY" are not gona let you waltz into town with all your publicity and hype and give you the BELMONT.

Also what happened to the California contingentcy ya think they might
re-think the poly stuff:cool:

P.S. TMH also had Munnings on top and Gio Ponti........



Turfbar

Maybe you should contact this guy. His software doesn't ask you to back in to the winner by virture of who it picks 2nd.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/?

Cadillakin
06-07-2009, 09:48 AM
Also what happened to the California contingentcy ya think they might
re-think the poly stuff:cool:

IMO, training and racing over synthetics has little effect when a horse changes surfaces.. It's neither a disadvantage or an advantage, other than it may have a very small effect on the horse's respective muscle groups and strength, training over the more demanding synthetic..

I've seen literally thousands of horses train their entire lives on dirt, and the moment they are moved over to grass, like ducks taking to water, they thrive. I Want Revenge and hundreds of others that train on synthetic, then move to dirt racing.. have proved that thesis many times over..

The California crew was basically inferior this year... Two of our four best got in the photo for 2nd in the Derby.. The horses that ran in the Belmont didn't belong..

cj
06-07-2009, 10:16 AM
1. First of all cj you can't have a lot of data to base on how to ride a horse in a mile and half race, but you are opining on how not to win one.

2. Was there anything in your numbers that would suggest that Dunkirk would be the pace setter? I can't find them in mine, and I do make my own.

I agree that Strangling a horse is usually not the way to go.

I've been watching races for 30 years now, I don't really need a database to form every opinion. I would never have tried to guess who would be on the lead in that race. When there are no confirmed front runners, and the race is that long, it is pretty much up to the riders.

All this said, the pace was actually on the slow side for that distance and for that track. Not a crawl, but a little below average. In most cases, you want to be up front in that case. Dunkirk was just second best in my opinion. He was ran down by a better horse.

turfbar
06-07-2009, 10:25 AM
IMO, training and racing over synthetics has little effect when a horse changes surfaces.. It's neither a disadvantage or an advantage, other than it may have a very small effect on the horse's respective muscle groups and strength, training over the more demanding synthetic..

I've seen literally thousands of horses train their entire lives on dirt, and the moment they are moved over to grass, like ducks taking to water, they thrive. I Want Revenge and hundreds of others that train on synthetic, then move to dirt racing.. have proved that thesis many times over..

The California crew was basically inferior this year... Two of our four best got in the photo for 2nd in the Derby.. The horses that ran in the Belmont didn't belong..

And last year ? Did you bet them in the Derby and Preakness?

Turfbar

westny
06-07-2009, 11:23 AM
It was the Smarty Jones' Belmont all over again. Premature move and then nothing left to finish that final 1/8 mile.

100% I agree.

Elliot never rode in a 1 1/2 mile race. Never rode at Belmont before the race.
SJ never worked out over the track. Shipped in from Phil the morning of the race.

Borel never rode in a 1 1/2 mile dirt race. Very few rides at Belmont.
MTB never worked out over the Belmont track. Woolley's mistake.
Should have shipped MTB to Belmont AFTER the Preakness. Let MTB get used to Belmont so it would he would feel comfortable...not keyed up like he was.

Borel partied in NY the week of the Belmont...never had another mount until 6:35...said "Belmont is like any other track....turns left...Borel's ego got to his head.

Bad ride by Calvin on a tired MTB. Beat by well rested SB with a HOF jockey on his back. Calvin won't be back at Belmont anytime soon, and neither will Woolley.

FenceBored
06-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Calvin won't be back at Belmont anytime soon, and neither will Woolley.

I'd advise Calvin to ride at Belmont this September, serious, even if he has trouble getting mounts. I'm trying to remember where he generally rides that month. Churchill in Nov, and Kee in Oct, does he do Turfway, or take a vacation? Anyway, it would be a good bit of 'professional development.'

cj
06-07-2009, 09:09 PM
I'd advise Calvin to ride at Belmont this September, serious, even if he has trouble getting mounts. I'm trying to remember where he generally rides that month. Churchill in Nov, and Kee in Oct, does he do Turfway, or take a vacation? Anyway, it would be a good bit of 'professional development.'

In case he gets a Belmont Stakes mount again? Come on, he is a little old to give up his main clients to learn to ride Belmont a little better.

Niko
06-07-2009, 10:07 PM
Borel was way too overconfident and I bet against MTB because of that, his odds and the race shape; but how about these;

Track was playing to inside speed, fractions were very fast all day and horses were still pulling away. If you don't think the pace is super fast don't you want to make a move earlier like Borel did so you're not to late. If Borel moved MTB too early in the Belmont, did M. Smith move too late in the Preakness?.

I've always hated choking a horse to slow him down, takes too much out of them. I was shocked when Dunkirk went to the lead but then thinking about it, there wasn't a ton of speed and the rail was good, I think it allowed Dunkirk to come back for second.

Don't want Borel to ride in another Belmont? You probably wouldn't have wanted Desormeaux then either after last year. It's a long race, you try to make the best decision. Am very surprised Borel didn't try to pick up one mount on dirt earlier in the day to get a feel for it? Again, way too overconfident with all the attention.

Greyfox
06-07-2009, 11:44 PM
I was shocked when Dunkirk went to the lead but then thinking about it, there wasn't a ton of speed and the rail was good, I think it allowed Dunkirk to come back for second.

.
I too was shocked with Dunkirk on the lead. I bet him. If the connections had let #9 Miner's Escape set the fractions it may have been a different outcome as I've suggested elsewhere on this thread. Others don't see it that way.

Cratos
06-08-2009, 01:09 AM
I too was shocked with Dunkirk on the lead. I bet him. If the connections had let #9 Miner's Escape set the fractions it may have been a different outcome as I've suggested elsewhere on this thread. Others don't see it that way.

Pletcher went for a Left Bank vs. Street Cry scenario and almost got away with it.

Dunkirk will be a force to be reckon with going forward.

badcompany
06-08-2009, 02:17 AM
Jazil, a big closer, ran almost an identical race to MTB's and didn't have a problem. The difference is that Jazil also skipped the Preakness.

louisianawoman
06-08-2009, 02:32 AM
Just my opinion but I think Borel rode with to much confidance today letting his horse run much closer to the pace then before,Race riding and scrubbing with still a quarter mile to go blew the wind out of MTB sails,Dont blame Woodley for being pissed,Got a countryboy ride today..

Countryboy trainer and experienced countryboy jockey. It could happen on any given day. The luck of the race. If I were Calvin I wouldn't ride a stick horse for him after the comment made after the race. Piss on the trainer.

JustRalph
06-08-2009, 05:59 AM
I sure had much more fun watching calvin and this crew this year

than I did last year.............

it was a fun triple crown

Thanks to Calvin and Chip............ :ThmbUp:

phatbastard
06-08-2009, 07:13 AM
cue up borel's ill-timed run in this race....looks kinda familiar to me

2007 preakness

joanied
06-08-2009, 01:33 PM
If you watched the pre race clip of Desormoux and Borel in the jocks room, they were seriously joking around. It was almost like they had decided to set the race up for Kent.. I wonder how much money they won on the side?

:eek: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

46zilzal
06-08-2009, 01:35 PM
cue up borel's ill-timed run in this race....looks kinda familiar to me

2007 preakness
Same thing with Afleet Alex in the Derby: moved too soon.

Tom
06-08-2009, 01:54 PM
How can that be when the jockey is just a passenger and the horse's style is hard wired???? And early is the way to win?

joanied
06-08-2009, 02:24 PM
I had MTB on top of everything...but, during the TV coverage, when they mentioned his being quite upset in the D barn, then when I watched the walkover...I suddenly had a change of mind...you'd think after the 1st 2 legs are under his belt, MTB, who is said to be so laid back and intelligent, would have been able to relax...did Woolley crank him up too much? was it the fact MTB was in a new place, under stressful conditions, and simply could not deal with it?
But once I saw how much on the muscle he was, I said out loud, to myself, he's way too much on his toes and this will be the one time MTB won't relax and run his race from well out of it...I was not surprised to see him take Calvin for a run down the backstretch...and it was smart of Calvin not to fight him...maybe Calvin could have waited a bit coming out of the turn, or maybe he had too much horse...and had to go.
I also think Woolley made a huge mistake staying at Churchill...sure the horse was doing great there...would he had trained as well at Belmont...maybe, maybe not...but IMO, any trainer of a Belmont horse that calls someplace else home base, absolutley needs to get that horse over the Belmont surface several times before Belmont Day....like what Ice did for SB...had he come in cold to run that horse, he wouldn't have had the grabs on, wouldn't have had a feel for the surface and probably would not have run the race he did.
It's hard to judge Calvin on this one, except to say he was way too confident...and maybe should have listened to Kent D.'s advice...he should have rode a couple of races on the undercard...I love Calvin, but he let all the attention go to his head...

When I heard that Dunkirk worked 3 seconds faster than Pletcher wanted, easily, on his own...it was a no brainer that the colt was gonna run huge...his unexpected lead wasn't all that surprising...he must have forgetten the bad start in the Derby...or remembered it and wanted to get away from there to stay outta trouble:) ...but he was running easy, ears up, just cruising along...great ride, IMO and one game sonofabitch...he'll just get better off this.
Maybe Charitable Man just can't get that distance...he tried, and no shame in his race.

Kent D & SB...great ride, very nice colt and hope to see Kent on him again...this horse, IMO is going to have a say in future races this season....and Ice is going to get some nice horses offered to him now...good for him!!

One thing...did we notice, no mention of drugs...no wondering if anyone was on steroids or anything else...no D barn raids:) ...which I found quite refreshing.

Great time on the road to the TC this year...sorry as hell we lost IWR, QR & the Mousse...hope we see them again soon...hope we see Pioneer and a few others again too...if ya think about it, we have a talented bunch of colts (and gelding), so let's hope they all run again a few times before BC day...nothing like seeing good horse butt heads all season long...this crap about keeping the good ones apart until BC sucks.

46zilzal
06-08-2009, 02:27 PM
How can that be when the jockey is just a passenger and the horse's style is hard wired???? And early is the way to win?
The better the horse, the greater is that slim bit of variance. in a 12 furlong contest, he was still a gelding with a 66.8 % median

Charli125
06-08-2009, 02:29 PM
"Maybe Charitable Man just can't get that distance...he tried, and no shame in his race."

Does anyone else think Charitable Man getting bumped and taken out of his line hurt him a lot? I think he was going to the lead, but when Dunkirk moved him over, the jock had to pull him up.

onefast99
06-08-2009, 04:56 PM
Don't agree Dunkirk still had momentum CM had lost his, good no call on that one.

Niko
06-08-2009, 05:59 PM
I had MTB on top of everything...but, during the TV coverage, when they mentioned his being quite upset in the D barn, then when I watched the walkover...I suddenly had a change of mind...you'd think after the 1st 2 legs are under his belt, MTB, who is said to be so laid back and intelligent, would have been able to relax...did Woolley crank him up too much? was it the fact MTB was in a new place, under stressful conditions, and simply could not deal with it?
But once I saw how much on the muscle he was, I said out loud, to myself, he's way too much on his toes and this will be the one time MTB won't relax and run his race from well out of it...I was not surprised to see him take Calvin for a run down the backstretch...and it was smart of Calvin not to fight him...maybe Calvin could have waited a bit coming out of the turn, or maybe he had too much horse...and had to go.
I also think Woolley made a huge mistake staying at Churchill...sure the horse was doing great there...would he had trained as well at Belmont...maybe, maybe not...but IMO, any trainer of a Belmont horse that calls someplace else home base, absolutley needs to get that horse over the Belmont surface several times before Belmont Day....like what Ice did for SB...had he come in cold to run that horse, he wouldn't have had the grabs on, wouldn't have had a feel for the surface and probably would not have run the race he did.


I can't remember the last time a trainer admitted they screwed up, always blame the jockey first.

Bruddah
06-08-2009, 06:52 PM
I think this will be a great group of Graded 1 to 3 horses next year. If most of these horses stay healthy, we will see some great races in the months ahead. Last year none were left standing after the Breeders Cup, including the only legitimate 3yr old race horse in the lot.(Big Brown). This years crop seems to have produced a group which will stay on for their 4 and maybe 5 year old racing years. At least, we can all hope so. I think the Breeders Cup will have some great entrants this year. Unfortunately, they will be "dummied down" having to race on plastic in California. Somehow plastic, tinsel town and California seem to be synonomous. :lol:

joanied
06-09-2009, 03:50 PM
I can't remember the last time a trainer admitted they screwed up, always blame the jockey first.

Sometimes you'll hear a trainer admit to some sort of 'goof up' in his training...wish I could think of a few off the top of my head :bang: but I'm certain I have actually heard some trainers use themselves as an excuse for a horse getting beat...
but, yeah, they do almost always blame either the jock or the surface...it'd be nice to hear Woolley admit he should have taken MTB to NY at least a week out...and also give MTB a few more long gallops...or, IMO, shoulda blew him out the morning before the Belmont...ON the Belmont surface!
That gutsy little horse beat himself on Belmont day...this also is my opinion...he was simply way too wired for his own good...in fact, since Calvin knew when he got mounted in the paddock that MTB was wired, IMO, they should have given him a really good warm up...that might have helped settle him.

Water under the bridge now....

onefast99
06-09-2009, 04:04 PM
How can that be when the jockey is just a passenger and the horse's style is hard wired???? And early is the way to win?
Interesting comment.

onefast99
06-09-2009, 04:12 PM
Sometimes you'll hear a trainer admit to some sort of 'goof up' in his training...wish I could think of a few off the top of my head :bang: but I'm certain I have actually heard some trainers use themselves as an excuse for a horse getting beat...
but, yeah, they do almost always blame either the jock or the surface...it'd be nice to hear Woolley admit he should have taken MTB to NY at least a week out...and also give MTB a few more long gallops...or, IMO, shoulda blew him out the morning before the Belmont...ON the Belmont surface!
That gutsy little horse beat himself on Belmont day...this also is my opinion...he was simply way too wired for his own good...in fact, since Calvin knew when he got mounted in the paddock that MTB was wired, IMO, they should have given him a really good warm up...that might have helped settle him.

Water under the bridge now....
Wired or not he had the lead and in the last 50 yards he ran out of gas. Calvin rode a solid race, the trainer did his job getting him ready and the next time someone shows me a virtual of MTB on the rail instead of on the outside vs RA in the Preakness I am going to pull my hair out!

46zilzal
06-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Interesting comment.
Tom doesn't quite understand early/late relativity,but that's okay, MOST don't

46zilzal
06-09-2009, 04:24 PM
I too was shocked with Dunkirk on the lead. I bet him. If the connections had let #9 Miner's Escape set the fractions it may have been a different outcome as I've suggested elsewhere on this thread. Others don't see it that way.
Energy distributions put one of TWO logical contenders UP on the pace as their early/late balance favored running the greater part of their race EARLIER than this field. Charitable and Dunkirk were the predicted pace possibilities.

JustRalph
06-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Tom doesn't quite understand early/late relativity,but that's okay, MOST don't


Why in hell did you let this idiot back on the board?

Another blue screen pasted again............oh how I missed those............ :bang:

rokitman
06-09-2009, 08:14 PM
Why in hell did you let this idiot back on the board?

Another blue screen pasted again............oh how I missed those............ :bang:
You are incapable of using the Ignore feature and you are calling him an idiot?

fast4522
06-09-2009, 08:25 PM
Or.......could it just be Calvin did the best anyone could have and there are few 3 year old's that can put 3 good marathon races together right after another.

Pell Mell
06-09-2009, 09:41 PM
Energy distributions put one of TWO logical contenders UP on the pace as their early/late balance favored running the greater part of their race EARLIER than this field. Charitable and Dunkirk were the predicted pace possibilities.

Of course! That explains everything. I should have thought of that before I bet SB.

JustRalph
06-10-2009, 04:25 AM
You are incapable of using the Ignore feature and you are calling him an idiot?


Oh no, I use it on a few. This wingnut sends me emails to my personal account when he can't get to me on the board............

He was supposed to come back to only the racing side..........he is returning to his old ways..........

it's not worth the argument...........

rastajenk
06-10-2009, 07:10 AM
New term: Blue-boarding. :bang:

joanied
06-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Wired or not he had the lead and in the last 50 yards he ran out of gas. Calvin rode a solid race, the trainer did his job getting him ready and the next time someone shows me a virtual of MTB on the rail instead of on the outside vs RA in the Preakness I am going to pull my hair out!

onefast99.....Glad I didn't refer to Bailey's virtual...I also thought he was way out of line with that stupid virtual thing...and with that, he was knocking the ride MTB got under Smith...so, ya don't have to pull any of your hair out:D ...

I never said Calvin didn't ride a good race...I only suggested that because he knew MTB was really wired, a nice long warm up might have settled the horse a bit, so that Calvin would maybe not have had to let the horse go on...he may have been able to stay further back a little longer, as is MTB's style...and in an interview, Wolley did mention that he may have had his horse a little too sharp...and I think everyone could plainly see that he was...very sharp...so, IMO, had MTB been a little less on the muscle, he'd have settled better for Calvin and maybe waited just a bit longer to start his run....and that if Woolley had shipped into Belmont a week early and trained on the track, even get Calvin up on his back a couple of times in the morning, maybe it would have done some good....it's my opinion that any horse going to a new track sruface needs to get a feel for it before race day.

MTB, Calvin & Woolley all did a good job....but don't you think that if MTB's run had begun maybe 100 yards later, he would have won by a damned nose....his 'tank reserve' would have been used a little later and he may have had that little extra left.

It's all opinion & speculation, onefast...but without a virtual graphic;)
:)

46zilzal
06-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Why in hell did you let this idiot back on the board?

Another blue screen pasted again............oh how I missed those............ :bang:
ORIGINALITY