Run up distances

[jasperson]

What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.

[46zilzal]

What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.
Agreed as it represents a minuscule part of the race. It dioes a lot to explain why a place like Philly has extremely fast early fractions however that don't transfer at all. Same with a few other places.

GIMMICK

[thruncy]

What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.

[macguy]

The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.


You do occasionally see a flagman at the odd track... I believe I remember seeing one a either Fpx or Dmr last summer... I'm trying to think, but can't remember which one it was off hand.

[Light]

Why do the run up distances change for the same distance,surface,track? For example the 5th at Belmont on 5/31, a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of 64 feet. But the 2nd race at Belmont on 5/30, also a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of only 40 feet.

[andymays]

Run up distances are a big deal on dirt surfaces and not so much on synthetic surfaces in my opinion. This is especially true on slow synthetic surfaces (closer biased) when all the Jocks have the brakes on early in a race. These are from Santa Anita.


Andy--
Hello. Your request for the various run up distances was relayed to me (I'm the track timer). Here is the info you requested

Main (Dirt) Track:

Distance Run-up from gate to start of timing

2 Furlongs 50 feet

5 Furlongs 82 feet

5 1/2 Furlongs 66 feet

6 Furlongs 85 feet

6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet

7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet

1 1/16 Miles 70 feet

1 1/8 Miles 63 feet

1 1/4 Miles 50 feet

1 1/2 Miles 170 feet

Turf Course

About 6 1/2 furlongs 84 feet (0 rail)*

107 feet (7 foot rail)*

131 feet (14 foot rail)*

1 1/2 Miles 24 feet (0 rail)**

35 feet (8 foot rail)**

89 feet (15 foot rail)**

154 feet (24 foot rail)**

195 feet (30 foot rail)**



1 1/4 Miles 52 feet (0 rail)**

114 feet (8 foot rail)**

163 feet (15 foot rail)**

230 feet (24 foot rail)**

283 feet (30 foot rail)**



1 1/8 Miles 18 feet (0 rail)***

66 feet (8 foot rail)***

80 feet (15 foot rail)***

138 feet (24 foot rail) ***

175 feet (30 foot rail)***



1 Mile 107 feet (0 rail)***

159 feet (8 foot rail)***

66 feet (15 foot rail)***

64 feet (24 foot rail)***

102 feet (30 foot rail)***





* The about six and one-half furlong races (actually 7 feet longer than 6 1/2 furlongs) are run partly downhill. There is a temporary rail that is frequently used to protect a portion of the downhill run and when it is in place it is either 7 feet or 14 feet out from the permanent inside rail. Since this increases the circumference of the turn, there are 3 starting points for the timing of these races and I've designated them as the 0 rail setting, etc. Location of the temporary rail (if in place) on the infield portion of the turf course does not affect the timing of the about 6 1/2 furlong races.



** The 1 1/2 Mile and 1 1/4 Mile turf races start on the downhill portion of the course but the hillside temporary rail is not in place when these races are run. The location of the rail on the infield portion of the course affects these races, so there are 5 run-up distances for each of these races, depending on the location of the rail on the infield oval. The mile and one-half race has approximately 2 1/2 to 3 furlongs of downhill run before the horses cross the dirt and run on the flat infield. For the mile and one-quarter races, there is approximately one furlong of downhill run before the dirt crossing.



*** The mile and one-eighth and one mile races are run on the infield oval with no downhill run. For the mile and one-eighth races, the gate is placed on the main (dirt) track so the horse have a very brief run (from 15-25 feet depending on post position) across dirt before they hit the turf course.



Official charts of the turf races run at Santa Anita include the rail position in the chart heading (usually at the end). If the temporary rail is in place for a six and one-half furlong turf race, the location of the rail is noted at the conclusion of the footnotes (chart comments).



I hope the information is of some value to you. If you have any further questions, feel free to email me at the above address.



Sincerely,



Jeff Tufts

[46zilzal]

Another layer to un-necessarily complicate decision making

[andymays]

I know many on this Forum use sophisticated pace figures. Santa Anita is one of the Tracks that has many different run up distances. Many Tracks I ask won't even give them out and some don't really know.

The differences between 7f and 61/2 on dirt are big and the mile vs. mile and one sixteenth are big..
6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet and 7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet and 1 1/16 Miles 70 feet


My questions are:

Do most Horseplayers that use pace figures know these run up distances?

And are these run ups caluculated into your programs (especially when the rails are out on the turf course)?

[Bruddah]

The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.

:lol: :lol: Now that's a funny post. This site has the largest group of informed/knowledgable Handicappers and Horse people on the internet. And, you don't think the majority are not informed about RUN UPS. I'll take that wager. What they don't get informed about is when the automatic timers aren't working. Just more "keepum' in the dark mentality" by the Blue Bloods of this Industry.

Your post really indicates naievity about the majority of those folks on this web site. Admittedly, there are several "newbies" which come here for information and discussion to learn about Horse Racing. The folks here welcome the opportunity to teach/inform and share knowledge. :ThmbUp:

[BlueShoe]

This is a factor that for decades has been "wish I knew"for this handicapper.In projecting the early pace as to who gets the early lead,raw times can be misleading,even more so when comparing runners from different tracks and different distances.When a horse that has been going 21 4/5 at track A never sees the lead when a horse from track B that shows 22 1/5 foot easily gets the early lead,you begin to see the problem.Often this will occur at the track in which both have been racing,but coming out of different distance races.

[andymays]

Prior to the Pro Ride Junk era I made many good scores exploiting the run up distances when evaluting the pace. Two turn races were especially lucrative. Not only evalutating the early pace but also the video replays of Horses going wide into the first turn at Santa Anita. A typical early fraction on the old dirt course would be 23 2/5 where now it is a about 25. Wide into the first turn when the pace is fast is a big deal because the Horse is being "used" but when it's slow the ground lost is not as important.

[CBedo]

If the runups were to actually change for same distance races on the same day, then having that information would clearly help handicapping, but as long as runups are consistent, the first fraction times will be consistent, and variants for the first fraction can be calculated, which would adjust for different runups at different tracks and distances.

[cj]

If the runups were to actually change for same distance races on the same day, then having that information would clearly help handicapping, but as long as runups are consistent, the first fraction times will be consistent, and variants for the first fraction can be calculated, which would adjust for different runups at different tracks and distances.

That is the point, the run ups are not consistent, even on the same race card. Some tracks are better than others, and some days more consistent than others.

[andymays]

That is the point, the run ups are not consistent, even on the same race card. Some tracks are better than others, and some days more consistent than others.


I have displayed the run ups for Santa Anita up above. Just curious about a few things regarding pace software or calculations from say Brisnet. I am a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff. Can you or anyone on the Board explain?

Are all the Santa Anita run ups caluculated into your pace programs and others like Brisnet?

How about when the rails change on the Turf Course?

Entering the data on a daily basis seems tedious to me but I would think it would pay off on the turf course????

[cj]

I have displayed the run ups for Santa Anita up above. Just curious about a few things regarding pace software or calculations from say Brisnet. I am a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff. Can you or anyone on the Board explain?

Are all the Santa Anita run ups caluculated into your pace programs and others like Brisnet?

How about when the rails change on the Turf Course?

Entering the data on a daily basis seems tedious to me but I would think it would pay off on the turf course????

Personally, I didn't try to track run ups. What I did was note when a particular day didn't make a lot of sense. I would go watch the replays and make note of any run up differences, which usually would explain a lot. So, the run ups would not be part of the program, but they would be built into the variants.

With the new information, which by the way BRIS has not added to their charts files, it will save me a lot of time. There is little doubt in my mind knowing the exact run up can create more accurate pace numbers than I currently am able to produce.

[proximity]

Why do the run up distances change for the same distance,surface,track? For example the 5th at Belmont on 5/31, a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of 64 feet. But the 2nd race at Belmont on 5/30, also a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of only 40 feet.

any track doing this should drop straight to the bottom of the hana rankings.

this is criminal. main track races should always start at the same spot. no exceptions.

[andymays]

any track doing this should drop straight to the bottom of the hana rankings.

this is criminal. main track races should always start at the same spot. no exceptions.


At Santa Anita the run up for 1 mile is way longer than the run up for 1 1/16(see one of my earlier posts) because it gives the Horses a longer run into the turn thereby minimizing the disadvantage of the outside post postions.

Knowing the run ups at your local tracks is a big advantage. Anyone who can create or has created a pace program that accurately takes run ups into account, especially the turf rail changes every week, would do very well. Run ups are a significant handicapping factor on dirt surfaces. Not so much on synthetic surfaces because of the slower pace!

[cj]

At Saratoga a few years ago, I asked the track super personally why the run up changes from day to day, and even race to race. He had no idea and said I had to asked the gate crew.

[andymays]

At Saratoga a few years ago, I asked the track super personally why the run up changes from day to day, and even race to race. He had no idea and said I had to asked the gate crew.


I've gone through that with several Tracks. Many of the people I contact and talk to don't know what I'm talking about when I ask. It would be nice for someone to post all the run ups for every major Track. For example I know the run up for 6 furlongs at Pimlico is very short but when I tried to find out nobody would respond. Santa Anita was one of a few that responded.

[Tom]

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?

[proximity]

At Santa Anita the run up for 1 mile is way longer than the run up for 1 1/16......

i'm fine with this but light's post indicated that belmont was changing the runups for main track races at the same distance. and this should NEVER happen..... :mad:

[andymays]

i'm fine with this but light's post indicated that belmont was changing the runups for main track races at the same distance. and this should NEVER happen..... :mad:


I don't think the changes are drastic but maybe I'm wrong. I know they can't put the gate in the same exact spot every time but it should'nt be more than 5 or 10 feet off. They may do it on the turf courses because of the weight of the gate and not wanting to create a depression in the course. But your right it shouldn't happen often or for great distances!

[andymays]

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?


From playing Santa Anita for years I would say that the extra 102 feet that they have to run up on a mile vs. 1 1/16 would be about 2/5 of a second difference.

There are many other factors like post position and watching the video of the break of the last few races (how the Jock "sent" or didn't "send") to determine the probable pace of a particular Horse in todays race.

[proximity]

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?

not sure there would be any consistency here, at least not in trying to use the published times. gate timers like len ragozin may have a formula that works though.

[Cratos]

I don't think the changes are drastic but maybe I'm wrong. I know they can't put the gate in the same exact spot every time but it should'nt be more than 5 or 10 feet off. They may do it on the turf courses because of the weight of the gate and not wanting to create a depression in the course. But your right it shouldn't happen often or for great distances!

Yes they can and yes they should. The track can put position markers on each side on the track at a standard distance from the start timing light for each race distance.

At the beginning of each race when the gate is rolled into position, it would be positioned such that a permanent feature on the gate is always inline with the markers.

This is a simple inexpensive, but fairly accurate way of maintaining the same run-up distance for each race distance.

[andymays]

Yes they can and yes they should. The track can put position markers on each side on the track at a standard distance from the start timing light for each race distance.

At the beginning of each race when the gate is rolled into position, it would be positioned such that a permanent feature on the gate is always inline with the markers.

This is a simple inexpensive, but fairly accurate way of maintaining the same run-up distance for each race distance.


Do we know which Tracks do what you suggest and which don't?

This seems to be a much bigger issue than most Horsplayers realize.

[Tom]

At FL, I've seen the gate vary by an entire pole for 1m70 races - because I was sitting on a bench directly in line with the gate for both races, and one of them, I had a clear view of the front off to my left.

[andymays]

At FL, I've seen the gate vary by an entire pole for 1m70 races - because I was sitting on a bench directly in line with the gate for both races, and one of them, I had a clear view of the front off to my left.


Racetracks that do this stuff should be called out. I can understand 5 feet or so off but when it gets to 20 feet or more then there's no point in timing a race.

If I were you I would take the time to make detailed notes when this is done and exploit the situation to your advantage. If they're doing it as much as you say on a regular basis then there is a lot of money to be made.

[rwwupl]

I know many on this Forum use sophisticated pace figures. Santa Anita is one of the Tracks that has many different run up distances. Many Tracks I ask won't even give them out and some don't really know.

The differences between 7f and 61/2 on dirt are big and the mile vs. mile and one sixteenth are big..
6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet and 7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet and 1 1/16 Miles 70 feet


My questions are:

Do most Horseplayers that use pace figures know these run up distances?

And are these run ups caluculated into your programs (especially when the rails are out on the turf course)?


Andy,

Thanks to you,Santa Anita and their longtime Linemaker and Timer Jeff Tufts for bringing a wealth of information to this informative thread.

I have known "Pace and Time" handicappers who have no clue to what they were dealing with run up differences.

Thanks for the effort to bring this to light for many.

[FenceBored]

Ok, stupid question time.

The run-up is not included in the distance of the race, right? A 6f with 24ft run up is actually 6f and 24 ft with a timed distance of 6f.

If so, wouldn't that mean that a 1mile 40yd race at a track with a less than 50 ft run-up at that distance is actually shorter gate to wire than a 1 mile race with 172 ft run-up at Santa Anita, even though the timed distance is longer?

[andymays]

Ok, stupid question time.

The run-up is not included in the distance of the race, right? A 6f with 24ft run up is actually 6f and 24 ft with a timed distance of 6f.

If so, wouldn't that mean that a 1mile 40yd race at a track with a less than 50 ft run-up at that distance is actually shorter gate to wire than a 1 mile race with 172 ft run-up at Santa Anita, even though the timed distance is longer?


For timing purposes it's still 6 furlongs but the Horses get a running start. Depending on the distance of the run up the 1 fraction can vary greatly. The longer the run up distance the faster the 1 quarter of the race will be. If memory serves me right a Track like Churchill has a little longer run up for 6 furlongs than the other sprint distances therefore a real quick quarter isn't quite as quick as it may seem in comparison to say a 5 1/2 furlong 1st quarter of the same time. I believe Pimlico has a very short run up for 6 furlongs and thats why you see a lot of 23 and change 1st quarters.

[cj]

For timing purposes it's still 6 furlongs but the Horses get a running start. Depending on the distance of the run up the 1 fraction can vary greatly. The longer the run up distance the faster the 1 quarter of the race will be.

The run up certainly does have an effect on final time, but not near as much as it does on the fractions.

With final time, on dirt at least, horses are slowing down as the race progresses. So, the longer run up will lead to a faster start, but some of that is negated since the horses are running longer and slowing down.

[andymays]

The run up certainly does have an effect on final time, but not near as much as it does on the fractions.

With final time, on dirt at least, horses are slowing down as the race progresses. So, the longer run up will lead to a faster start, but some of that is negated since the horses are running longer and slowing down.


The reason the pace is important is that you can add or eliminate contenders based upon the probable pace of the race and the more educated your guess is as to the probable pace the better chance you have of connecting on all wagers including Tri's and Supers.

On synthetic surfaces like Santa Anita or Golden Gate the pace has almost no bearing in my opinion especially at a distance of ground. That's why I hate most synthetic surfaces! The one at Hollywood right now is more like dirt and therefore the pace is important.

[46zilzal]

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much

[andymays]

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much


Many times you can eliminate a short priced favorite if that favorite is a need the lead type. Knowing another Horse is faster early based on run up discrepancies is a big edge.

[46zilzal]

Many times you can eliminate a short priced favorite if that favorite is a need the lead type. Knowing another Horse is faster early based on run up discrepancies is a big edge.
A need to lead can/ cannot be eliminated without that run up knowledge just as easily if there is sufficient pace pressure from others. Pine Tree Land figured to outbreak the NTL' Groovy without run up distances and negated his chances at Santa Anita's Breeder's Cup.

[andymays]

A need to lead can/ cannot be eliminated without that run up knowledge just as easily if there is sufficient pace pressure from others. Pine Tree Land figured to outbreak the NTL' Groovy without run up distances and negated his chances at Santa Anita's Breeder's Cup.


Totally disagree based on my experience. Any edge you can get in this game helps.

[46zilzal]

Totally disagree based on my experience. Any edge you can get in this game helps.
K.I.S.S. abounds in this game: it is a well guarded secret however.

[andymays]

K.I.S.S. abounds in this game: it is a well guarded secret however.


I certainly appreciate the advice but knowing run ups is a basic part of Pace Handicapping.

[DanG]

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much
46,

I’m very surprised your taking this stance on run-ups and there importance. I’ve seen you post energy profiles and making fine line distinctions with them. Run-ups can have a HUGE impact on velocity / energy numbers as you know...don't you?

BTW: I never thanked you for beating the drum on how ‘median energy’ was a superior measurement to the old Sartin / Brohamer energy formula. You were very right (imo) and thanks very much for the heads up. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

From Churchill Downs. I got this run up information in two separate emails from a guy named Butch Lehr.

The run ups are all approximately 50ft. with one exception for 6 furlongs. It is approximately 80ft. We always move the gate a little bit one way or the other to offset setting in the same spot over and over for safety reasons.

On the turf, when we move our rails for letting the grass recover we have 3 different lanes that we also have separate timing devices for all the distances we race at and they all are calibrated for the purpose of moving the rail, that are true distances from start to finish. The run ups are approx. 50 ft as well.

Santa Anita and Churchill are so different in their run ups that it's scary!

[andymays]

From Del Mar. From: Mac McBride ...Subject: RE: Timer Question


Andrew --
There are standard "run-up" distances at all tracks. We have a set number here at Del Mar and we publish the list periodically in the program. I've posted them below for you:

--- Mac McBride


Main Track --- One Mile --- 220 feet
All other distances --- 45 feet

Turf Course --- (with rails at zero)
Five Furlongs --- 15 feet
One Mile --- 110 feet
One and 1/16th Miles --- 45 feet
One and 1/8 Miles --- 45 feet
One and 3/8 Miles --- N/A

(Rails out)
Five Furlongs -- 20 feet
One Mile --- 145 feet
One and 1/16 Miles --- 36 feet
One and 1/8 Miles -- 36 feet
One and 3/8 Miles -- 156 feet

[andymays]

From Emerald Downs..

Thank you for your correspondence. The run up distance is approximately 50 feet for each race distance at Emerald Downs.

Sincerely,

Kerry Dalton
Director of Merchandising/Website
Emerald Downs

[andymays]

This is the answer I just got from the NYRA..

They change every day with every race, the racing form is keeping this information and publishing it in the past performances.
PJ Campo


Amazing!

If the DRF has the info and is publishing it then it must be available right?

This answer from P J Campo doesn't look good for the NYRA in my opinion.

[cj]

This is the answer I just got from the NYRA..

They change every day with every race, the racing form is keeping this information and publishing it in the past performances.
PJ Campo


Amazing!

If the DRF has the info and is publishing it then it must be available right?

This answer from P J Campo doesn't look good for the NYRA in my opinion.

If the track superintendent couldn't tell me why the gate placement varied, who could? To be fair, I would not expect the racing secretary to be involved or even care much, I'm sure he has better things to worry about.

[andymays]

If the track superintendent couldn't tell me why the gate placement varied, who could? To be fair, I would not expect the racing secretary to be involved or even care much, I'm sure he has better things to worry about.


So far they are the only ones who haven't responded well. I did email him back and asked again where I could get the information and I'll post his response when and if I get it.

[cj]

I understand, I'm just saying he probably isn't the right guy to ask.

It should be the responsibility of the gate crew to be consistent with gate placement. I imagine they have never had anybody give them a hard time about the inconsistency, so they don't care. If one of their bosses made it a point to get it right, it would be fixed pretty damn quick.

I specifically asked if the gate was moved around so as not to wear out the same part of the track. The answer was "It moves?"

[FenceBored]

This is the answer I just got from the NYRA..

They change every day with every race, the racing form is keeping this information and publishing it in the past performances.
PJ Campo


Amazing!

If the DRF has the info and is publishing it then it must be available right?

This answer from P J Campo doesn't look good for the NYRA in my opinion.

"Don't ask me! The guys put the gate where they want. What's it to you?" :lol:

[andymays]

I understand, I'm just saying he probably isn't the right guy to ask.

It should be the responsibility of the gate crew to be consistent with gate placement. I imagine they have never had anybody give them a hard time about the inconsistency, so they don't care. If one of their bosses made it a point to get it right, it would be fixed pretty damn quick.


In the earlier email from him he said that the run ups changed for every race. That doesn't sound right to me. If it's true that if they have 4 races at 6 furlongs and they all have vastly different run ups then early pace figures are useless.

[cj]

In the earlier email from him he said that the run ups changed for every race. That doesn't sound right to me. If it's true that if they have 4 races at 6 furlongs and they all have vastly different run ups then early pace figures are useless.

It is true. Belmont is probably the worst track I have come across in this regard. I would not say the figures are useless if you are aware the run ups change and account for it. I spend probably 5 times as long making figures for Belmont as I do any other track in North America on a daily basis.

[andymays]

It is true. Belmont is probably the worst track I have come across in this regard. I would not say the figures are useless if you are aware the run ups change and account for it. I spend probably 5 times as long making figures for Belmont as I do any other track in North America on a daily basis.


If he doesn't respond by tomorrow I will call and get an answer.

[46zilzal]

Our gate crew varies in the neighborhood of 5 feet race to race all day long. Having watched first hand for years now, they are very consistent.

[andymays]

Our gate crew varies in the neighborhood of 5 feet race to race all day long. Having watched first hand for years now, they are very consistent.


Which track?

[Robert Fischer]

one of the obvious differences with run-ups occur when you compare two races at different distances that happen to have dramatic run up differences. Unless you know and understand the run ups, you must blindly have faith in the accuracy of the early pace figures.

[FenceBored]

In the earlier email from him he said that the run ups changed for every race. That doesn't sound right to me. If it's true that if they have 4 races at 6 furlongs and they all have vastly different run ups then early pace figures are useless.

Here's Light's question from page one of this thread.


Why do the run up distances change for the same distance,surface,track? For example the 5th at Belmont on 5/31, a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of 64 feet. But the 2nd race at Belmont on 5/30, also a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of only 40 feet.

It seems they do change. 48ft for 6f seems to be the standard, but there are some odd ones. 40-64 ft

Quick check on the Equibase charts:

Date __ R# __ Run Up
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/29 __ 2 ___ 48
5/29 __ 5 ___ 48
5/29 __ 9 ___ 48
5/30 __ 2 ___ 40
5/30 __ 6 ___ 48
5/31 __ 2 ___ 56
5/31 __ 5 ___ 64
6/03 __ 2 ___ 48
6/03 __ 3 ___ 48
6/03 __ 5 ___ 48

[cj]

one of the obvious differences with run-ups occur when you compare two races at different distances that happen to have dramatic run up differences. Unless you know and understand the run ups, you must blindly have faith in the accuracy of the early pace figures.

As others have mentioned, the differences in run ups at different distances don't really matter. Any decent figure maker is going to have that built into his numbers. What matters is when the run ups are not consistent.

[andymays]

Here's Light's question from page one of this thread.



It seems they do change. 48ft for 6f seems to be the standard, but there are some odd ones. 40-64 ft

Quick check on the Equibase charts:

Date __ R# __ Run Up
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/28 __ 2 ___ 48
5/29 __ 2 ___ 48
5/29 __ 5 ___ 48
5/29 __ 9 ___ 48
5/30 __ 2 ___ 40
5/30 __ 6 ___ 48
5/31 __ 2 ___ 56
5/31 __ 5 ___ 64
6/03 __ 2 ___ 48
6/03 __ 3 ___ 48
6/03 __ 5 ___ 48


Which track are these for?

[cj]

The run ups are now part of the free charts available at Equibase. Anyone can get the info that wants it.

[FenceBored]

The data I posted was from Belmont.

[andymays]

The run ups are now part of the free charts available at Equibase. Anyone can get the info that wants it.


I've never been to Equibase. Do the run ups for Santa Anita match up with what I posted earlier? How about Del Mar?

Thanks

[46zilzal]

Which track?
Hasting's and I have taped full cards at many other tracks, knowing that the television cameras are stable, and they don't vary much either at those I hav checked.

I spoke with Joe, the starter, about run up differences and he said the stewards would all over him if he varied it too much. He had just come from a starter's convention in Louisville and mentioned that was a topic of discussion there.

[FenceBored]

The run ups are now part of the free charts available at Equibase. Anyone can get the info that wants it.

Yeah, but that raises the next integrity issue, as if another one is needed. How are the distances derived? Is someone for Equibase (since they handle the chart calling) going to laser measure every race? I doubt it. So is the reported data just going to be what the track says. If a track has a set distance and the gate crew places that gate at that point with only minor (5ft or less) variations, fine. But, take those figures from Belmont and Mr. Campo's answer. There are some organizations which would have the crew place it more consistently from now on. Others would not fight the crew, and just say that it's consistent. How would anyone know? And with a range of 24ft (40-64ft) all being reported as 48ft ...:confused:

[andymays]

Yeah, but that raises the next integrity issue, as if another one is needed. How are the distances derived? Is someone for Equibase (since they handle the chart calling) going to laser measure every race? I doubt it. So is the reported data just going to be what the track says. If a track has a set distance and the gate crew places that gate at that point with only minor (5ft or less) variations, fine. But, take those figures from Belmont and Mr. Campo's answer. There are some organizations which would have the crew place it more consistently from now on. Others would not fight the crew, and just say that it's consistent. How would anyone know? And with a range of 24ft (40-64ft) all being reported as 48ft ...:confused:


I think this is an important issue and the reason I'm following up is that as we go on we seem to find out more stuff about the different Racetracks. If people go to the trouble of producing accurate figures then we should know how accurate they really are!

Good Stuff!

[FenceBored]

I've never been to Equibase. Do the run ups for Santa Anita match up with what I posted earlier? How about Del Mar?

Thanks

The free Equibase charts only go back about a week.

[andymays]

The free Equibase charts only go back about a week.


I'm just curious to see if they jive with the info the Tracks sent me. Emeral Downs said all run ups are 50 feet and so did Churchill with the exception of 6F witch is 80 feet. Do those jive?

[andymays]

I just went Equibase and their figures do not jive with what Emerald Downs sent. I emailed Emerald back to double check.

Churchills aren't close either!

This is crap! But I'm glad we're finding this out!

[rwwupl]

I just went Equibase and their figures do not jive with what Emerald Downs sent. I emailed Emerald back to double check.

Churchills aren't close either!

This is crap! But I'm glad we're finding this out!

Early in my horse racing life I was a numbers man. No more.It was things like this that changed my approach. I learned that when a horseplayer tells you that "Time is only important if you are in jail" he has a point.

I now rely on on trip handicapping ,body language and situation handicapping.

rwwupl

[Bruddah]

You get a Big Amen Bruddah!

[andymays]

Early in my horse racing life I was a numbers man. No more.It was things like this that changed my approach. I learned that when a horseplayer tells you that "Time is only important if you are in jail" he has a point.

I now rely on on trip handicapping ,body language and situation handicapping.

rwwupl


I'm with you but predicting the early pace has always been important in my handicapping until synthetics. I have always looked at the DRF and watched videos and read workout comments for the most part. If the run ups vary from race to race at any give track then the first quarter fraction is almost useless.

I'm interested in following this run up thing through a little more though.
Most of the Handicappers here seem to use software programs to do their handicapping so I'm wondering if many of them know about these discrepancies. If we find out that there are discrepancies.

[Robert Fischer]

As others have mentioned, the differences in run ups at different distances don't really matter. Any decent figure maker is going to have that built into his numbers. What matters is when the run ups are not consistent.

well i guess i disagree with "others" as well.

the run up distance differences do matter in my opinion.

the fact that you are aware of them and you are confident in dealing with them, I think says good about your own figures, which happen to have a good reputation.

Gulfstream is one example of a dramatic difference between 7furlongs and a mile in run up time.

I could be wrong but I am also confident in my methodology.

[andymays]

well i guess i disagree with "others" as well.

the run up distance differences do matter in my opinion.

the fact that you are aware of them and you are confident in dealing with them, I think says good about your own figures, which happen to have a good reputation.

Gulfstream is one example of a dramatic difference between 7furlongs and a mile in run up time.

I could be wrong but I am also confident in my methodology.


As this thread goes on we are finding out that the gate is not placed in the same spot for the same distance on a given day and it can vary up to 20 feet either way. If this is true at all Tracks or some Tracks then it is a problem. I think we'll know more in a day or two.

[andymays]

Just got this from Emerald Downs after I sent them the Eqibase Charts with the varying run ups..

Andy,

Thank you for alerting me to the incorrect info that is being posted by Equibase. Our media relations manager is going to contact Equibase tomorrow to have that corrected. Our run-up distances are approximately 50 feet for every race.

Kerry

[cj]

well i guess i disagree with "others" as well.

the run up distance differences do matter in my opinion.

the fact that you are aware of them and you are confident in dealing with them, I think says good about your own figures, which happen to have a good reputation.

Gulfstream is one example of a dramatic difference between 7furlongs and a mile in run up time.

I could be wrong but I am also confident in my methodology.

I actually don't think we are disagreeing. I'm just saying if, for example, the dramatic difference at Gulfstream is consistent, that difference will be built into the figures very accurately. If it is inconsistent (it is at GP), you can have a problem if you don't know about it.

As to the rest of this thread, I agree 100%. If we can't trust the information provided, it is better to have no information at all.

[cj]

Just got this from Emerald Downs after I sent them the Eqibase Charts with the varying run ups..

Andy,

Thank you for alerting me to the incorrect info that is being posted by Equibase. Our media relations manager is going to contact Equibase tomorrow to have that corrected. Our run-up distances are approximately 50 feet for every race.

Kerry

What day? It is very simple to see who is right and who is wrong. Even if you don't know the precise distance via replay, you can certainly see if the gate is in the same place.

[andymays]

What day? It is very simple to see who is right and who is wrong. Even if you don't know the precise distance via replay, you can certainly see if the gate is in the same place.


I'm not sure what your saying. Is Equibase right or is Emerald Downs right?

[cj]

I'm not sure what your saying. Is Equibase right or is Emerald Downs right?

What I am saying is you don't have to ask. Just go watch the REPLAYS and see for yourself.

[andymays]

What I am saying is you don't have to ask. Just go watch the REPLAYS and see for yourself.


We're Talking about a lot of tracks around the country that this affects. I have an email to Equibase asking them where they get their data for the run ups.

[cj]

I already answered that in another thread, they get it from the chart caller. I find it hard to believe the chart caller is going to lie. If so, why make up various distances for the run up, just report the same one. But again, I haven't watched yet to see.

You could know who is right and who is wrong in five minutes rather than firing off emails and waiting for self serving replies.

[andymays]

I already answered that in another thread, they get it from the chart caller. I find it hard to believe the chart caller is going to lie. If so, why make up various distances for the run up, just report the same one. But again, I haven't watched yet to see.

You could know who is right and who is wrong in five minutes rather than firing off emails and waiting for self serving replies.

CJ nothing surprises me anymore. I initially thought Equibase was right but now I'm not so sure. It seems like every time I look into something after assuming something I get a surprise. I want to get these people on the record with their emails so I can post them for all to see. With a couple more days of information I may be able to get someone to write an article on this stuff.

[cj]

OK, so I took the Saturday card and looked them up and watched the replays:

Distance-runup:

8.0 25
6.0 40
6.5 24
6.0 40
5.5 60
6.5 24
6.0 40
6.5 24
6.0 40

If I had to make a bet, I would bet on the chart caller. There are clearly differences in the run up between the 5.5, 6, and 6.5f races. No way are they all "approximately" 50 feet.

[andymays]

OK, so I took the Saturday card and looked them up and watched the replays:

Distance-runup:

8.0 25
6.0 40
6.5 24
6.0 40
5.5 60
6.5 24
6.0 40
6.5 24
6.0 40

If I had to make a bet, I would bet on the chart caller. There are clearly differences in the run up between the 5.5, 6, and 6.5f races. No way are they all "approximately" 50 feet.


You are probably right. The one run up that surprises me is the Mile run up. Most two turn mile tracks have longer run ups for mile races because of the short distance to the first turn.

[cj]

It looked pretty accurate, not much of a run up.

[andymays]

It looked pretty accurate, not much of a run up.


Since you seem to know what to look for what exactly are you looking for when measuring the run up?

[Charlie D]

At a gues, Chart caller will probably use the rail posts

[andymays]

Chart caller will probably use the rail posts


Aren't we looking for the point from the starting gate where the timer is placed and tripped?

[cj]

It is pretty easy to see the gate and the poles and eyeball the distance, and using the rails helps in some instances.

[andymays]

It is pretty easy to see the gate and the poles and eyeball the distance, and using the rails helps in some instances.


The timer is always place on or near the poles?

[Charlie D]

Aren't we looking for the point from the starting gate where the timer is placed and tripped?

You are. I'm just guessing the spacing of the rail posts is what the chart caller uses to estimate the run up.


Someone like CJ however, may know otherwise

[cj]

The timer is always place on or near the poles?

Dude, you are making this WAY too complicated. If they are timing a 6f race, the timer will be at the 6f pole. Same for a mile, and any other distance. Now, odd distances like 1m70y will be tougher, but the standard ones just aren't this tough. EmD is wrong.

[andymays]

Dude, you are making this WAY too complicated. If they are timing a 6f race, the timer will be at the 6f pole. Same for a mile, and any other distance. Now, odd distances like 1m70y will be tougher, but the standard ones just aren't this tough. EmD is wrong.


Thanks for taking the time to give me the info. I appreciate it! There was also a 20 foot discrepancy with Churchill at 6F. Equibase said it was 100 ft and Churchill says it's 80 feet!

[proximity]

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much

at cd we are finding that the runup is typically 100ft for 6f and 34 ft for 6 1/2f. a difference of "only" 66 feet but yet the difference in 1/4 mile pars for these two distances at cd is much greater than it is at most other tracks..... approximately a full second for most classes.

as cj is trying to say this isn't a big deal IF these differences in runups are consistent because such differences would simply be reflected in the pars for each distance at a track. BUT say that for certain 6 1/2 f races churchill would decide to move the gate back 40 feet (about 60% of the current difference) you don't think that this would bring the fractions much closer to the 6f fractions?

well obviously it would and these fractions couldn't be compared with "normal" 34 ft runup 6 1/2 f fractions or normal fractions at any other distance UNLESS you had accurate pace pars for all of the different 6 1/2 furlong runup distances....... AND IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT THERE SHOULD BE MULTIPLE PAR CHARTS FOR RACES CONTESTED OVER THE EXACT SAME COURSE.

[proximity]

What I am saying is you don't have to ask. Just go watch the REPLAYS and see for yourself.

i appreciate your meticulousness in the figure making process, but nobody (you or anyone else) should have to watch replays of every race in north america to see where the (insert favorite expletive) starting gate is positioned.

we should tip our caps to andy for emailing all of these tracks and making them aware that this is an issue that is important to the players. just watching replays and noting differences won't do that.

and this is something that can be easily remedied.

[andymays]

i appreciate your meticulousness in the figure making process, but nobody (you or anyone else) should have to watch replays of every race in north america to see where the (insert favorite expletive) starting gate is positioned.

we should tip our caps to andy for emailing all of these tracks and making them aware that this is an issue that is important to the players. just watching replays and noting differences won't do that.

and this is something that can be easily remedied.


Thanks for the good words. The inconsistencies bother me a lot. I am the furthest thing from a figure player but analyzing the early pace (especially the 1st quarter)has always been something I've done and using the differences in run ups has always been a part of that. Especially at Santa Anita prior to Pro Ride (I hate it).

I like these discussions because we always learn something we didn't know before. I am shocked that the info from the Tracks is wrong if it turns out that way (and I have no reason to not to believe CJ).

[cj]

i appreciate your meticulousness in the figure making process, but nobody (you or anyone else) should have to watch replays of every race in north america to see where the (insert favorite expletive) starting gate is positioned.

we should tip our caps to andy for emailing all of these tracks and making them aware that this is an issue that is important to the players. just watching replays and noting differences won't do that.

and this is something that can be easily remedied.

I completely agree, it is great. My point was it is better to email the party that is wrong and get the information fixed than it is to email and ask for information when you can get it yourself. Hats off to Andy, and I will help any way I can if he needs it.

[andymays]

Belmont is having a hard time coming up with the information but I have been assured that they will. Also asked for Saratoga and Aqueduct.

[andymays]

The Equibase run up and rail positions are good stuff to add. All PP's should include accurate run ups and rail positions on turf!

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2009/May/19/Equibase-adds-run-up-distance-temporary-rail-location.aspx

[andymays]

Butch Lehr just emailed me that Equibase is correct with the 100 ft run up for 6 furlongs and the 80 ft he sent me before was wrong.

Go CJ! Go Equibase.

I may begin buying Equibase PP's because of this! Having accurate run ups and turf rail positions is important.

[andymays]

Butch Lehr just emailed me that Equibase is correct with the 100 ft run up for 6 furlongs and the 80 ft he sent me before was wrong.

Go CJ! Go Equibase.

I may begin buying Equibase PP's because of this! Having accurate run ups and turf rail positions is important.


Butch Lehr from Churchill just sent me this.. All other run ups he sent were accurate and ...

The teletimer people certify the distances and moved rail positions. Hopefully this answers your questions

[andymays]

Mr. Asaro:
Run-up distances are either provided by the tracks or estimated by our chartcallers. In the case of the 6f races at CD, this information is provided by track officials. I'd be interested in knowing where run-up distance is published.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Chuck Scaravilli
Vice President, Track & Field
Equibase Company


I responded to Mr Scaravilli by thanking him for taking the time to respond and let him know that he may have a 30 year DRF guy change teams. I told him that Equibase was right on at the 100 ft figure for 6f and that Churchill retracted the 80 ft they had sent me previously. I appreciate guys like this responding to potential customers. It's good PR and good Business!

Already got this back from Mr Scaravilli...

Andy:

I'm happy to hear that our run-up at CD is accurate. Thanks for the kind words-----AND we'd be delighted to have you as a customer. We really do try to do things the right way.

Thanks again.

Chuck

[Tom]

Gotta hand it to you for perseverance, Chuck! :ThmbUp:

[proximity]

Belmont is having a hard time coming up with the information........

lol, given the information that light posted back towards the beginning of the thread, i bet they are!!:rolleyes:

another thing to consider here is that the relationship between runup and times isn't linear. ie the ultimate difference in times between a zero and 40 ft runup will be greater than the time differences produced by 100 and 140 ft runups (even though both are 40ft in distance).... and if the runups get long enough we will eventually come to a point where the times would start to get slower due to horse fatigue.

[Cratos]

What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.

In reading through this post I find it interesting that there are some who would state that the run-up distance would not have an affect on the final time of a race because of the distance of the race relative to the distance of the run-up.

That is a faulty assumption and the reason why is acceleration. Acceleration is the rate at which the horse changes its velocity.

Simply stated the rate at which the horse changes its position will be its velocity. A horse standing in the gate would have “zero” velocity because it hasn’t change its position, but once the gates open and the horse moves to the timing beam to start the timing of the race it would have moved at “x” velocity.

What does this has to do with the run-up distance and the final time of the race? The longer the run-up distance given the horses’ innate acceleration ability, the higher the velocity will be; and in all probability will generate a race with a faster pace which typically would yield a faster final time.

Additionally, since the smallest winning margin in a horserace is a “nose” which is thought to be about .01 seconds, acceleration is always critical to the final time because pace sets the shape of the race which dictates the final time and the probable winner.

[andymays]

lol, given the information that light posted back towards the beginning of the thread, i bet they are!!:rolleyes:

another thing to consider here is that the relationship between runup and times isn't linear. ie the ultimate difference in times between a zero and 40 ft runup will be greater than the time differences produced by 100 and 140 ft runups (even though both are 40ft in distance).... and if the runups get long enough we will eventually come to a point where the times would start to get slower due to horse fatigue.


Just by coincidence the VP of Equibase Chuck Scaravilli has a meeting at Belmont today. Maybe the subject will come up. I did email the DRF and told them that they had a 30 year customer that was going to jump ship if they didn't start putting this info in their PP's. They will get back to me probably never. The guy from Equibase got back to me in minutes not days!

[miesque]

Just by coincidence the VP of Equibase Chuck Scaravilli has a meeting at Belmont today. Maybe the subject will come up. I did email the DRF and told them that they had a 30 year customer that was going to jump ship if they didn't start putting this info in their PP's. They will get back to me probably never. The guy from Equibase got back to me in minutes not days!

I am not at all surprised at the promptness of your response from Equibase, all my interactions with them have been professional, prompt and top notch.

[andymays]

I am not at all surprised at the promptness of your response from Equibase, all my interactions with them have been professional, prompt and top notch.


As a Dinosaur who has made some good scores in my time it's very hard to change PP's.

The other reason I've never gone to Equibase is that it pisses me off every time I go to a Track Website to get a program and Equibase wants to charge for it. I plan on relaying this to the guy from Equibase. That little thing has probably caused more than a few Horseplayers to wrongly take a negative view of Equibase.


This just in from Hastings...

Good Morning Andy,

Our run up distances are as follows:

- 6 Furlongs the run up is 96 FT
- 6 1/2 it is 24 Ft
- 1 1/16 Mile it is 20 Ft
- 1 1/8 Mile it is 30 ft

Cheers,
Kelly Grant, Marketing Manager
Hastings Racecourse
188 N. Renfrew St.
Vancouver, BC V5K 3N8

[46zilzal]

T


Cheers,
Kelly Grant, Marketing Manager
Hastings Racecourse
188 N. Renfrew St.
Vancouver, BC V5K 3N8
Ask Kelly how her stress fracture is doing. She refuses to treat it correctly wearing high heels with her crutches.

[andymays]

Ask Kelly how her stress fracture is doing. She refuses to treat it correctly wearing high heels with her crutches.


message sent!

[andymays]

Just by coincidence the VP of Equibase Chuck Scaravilli has a meeting at Belmont today. Maybe the subject will come up. I did email the DRF and told them that they had a 30 year customer that was going to jump ship if they didn't start putting this info in their PP's. They will get back to me probably never. The guy from Equibase got back to me in minutes not days!


Just in from DRF...

Andy,

We'll be adding run ups and turf rail positions to our Formulator pp's as soon as development has it ready to go.

Regards,

Mike @ DRF

[andymays]

Just in from Emerald Downs..... and the winner is.... Equibase! And CJ of course!

Dear Andy:

The run-up distances as provided by Equibase (listed below) are correct.

I personally went over each distance with Equibase trackman Gary Norton and am confident that they are accurate.

4 ½ F: 44 ft
5F: 50 ft
5 ½ F: 60 ft
6F: 40 ft
6 ½ F: 24 ft
1M: 25 ft
1 1/16M: 70 ft


Sincerely
Vince Bruun
Director of Media Relations
Emerald Downs

[cj]

Though Emerald did get it right eventually, isn't it amazing how easily the tracks try to pass off erroneous information as fact?

I spent a lot of time in customer service during my Air Force days, and I can't imagine ever giving a customer an answer as fact if I didn't really know the answer.

[proximity]

Though Emerald did get it right eventually, isn't it amazing how easily the tracks try to pass off erroneous information as fact?


lol, it looks like many graduates of the larry king school of public relations have found employment at america's racetracks!!

[andymays]

This ended up being a great discussion that actually led to some real changes at a couple Racetracks in the Country. How often does that happen?

I also learned that Equibase put out accurate information.

[rwwupl]

Thanks to all who participated in this informative thread. A lot of effort went into this discussion.

Andy :ThmbUp:

I enjoyed reading the whole thing, and learned some too.

[jasperson]

Early in my horse racing life I was a numbers man. No more.It was things like this that changed my approach. I learned that when a horseplayer tells you that "Time is only important if you are in jail" he has a point.

I now rely on on trip handicapping ,body language and situation handicapping.

rwwupl
Two things I don't believe in is accurate speed figures and accurate pace figuges.
Jack

[andymays]

You started a great subject here Jack. I don't know if you followed it all the way through but a couple of Tracks had to retract their run up figures and admit that Equibase had it right. It's not often that some guys on a Message Board can change something at a couple of Tracks.

Thanks for starting it!

[Tom]

Hats off for getting it done!
Amazing how slack some tracks are....

[andymays]

Hats off for getting it done!
Amazing how slack some tracks are....


I guess the lesson is not to assume anything. You have to double check stuff and ask questions.

[jasperson]

You started a great subject here Jack. I don't know if you followed it all the way through but a couple of Tracks had to retract their run up figures and admit that Equibase had it right. It's not often that some guys on a Message Board can change something at a couple of Tracks.

Thanks for starting it!
I have being following this with great interest and will have some coments and opinions later on. Right now I have had 4 big glasses of Merlot and I am afraid I might affend somebody with my opinions.:)

[andymays]

I have being following this with great interest and will have some coments and opinions later on. Right now I have had 4 big glasses of Merlot and I am afraid I might affend somebody with my opinions.:)


I know how that goes. Unplug the phones and the computer! Really!

[cj]

Hats off for getting it done!
Amazing how slack some tracks are....

Honestly, sometimes, I wonder if it is better to investigate yourself and let the bad information remain in the public eye.

[andymays]

From NYRA

Andy ,
The distances for the run- ups vary at each location there are not any specific or predetermined locations for gate placement . NYRA now prints the run-up for each starter in our program. The method that is currently in place requires the Asst. Starter to call the Chart Caller after the gate is set. The distance can change where the gate is set depending if we are staggering the tires marks. Hope this is helpful, feel free to contact me if you have any other questions.

Glen

[cj]

From NYRA

Andy ,
The distances for the run- ups vary at each location there are not any specific or predetermined locations for gate placement . NYRA now prints the run-up for each starter in our program. The method that is currently in place requires the Asst. Starter to call the Chart Caller after the gate is set. The distance can change where the gate is set depending if we are staggering the tires marks. Hope this is helpful, feel free to contact me if you have any other questions.

Glen

Let me rephrase Glen's answer:

Andy,

We honestly don't care if people want consistent run up distances. We will put the gate wherever we feel like putting it. Live with it.

Glen

[andymays]

Let me rephrase Glen's answer:

Andy,

We honestly don't care if people want consistent run up distances. We will put the gate wherever we feel like putting it. Live with it.

Glen


Well CJ I guess all this run up stuff is over anyway with Equibase and soon the DRF publishing them in the PP's.

[cj]

Well CJ I guess all this run up stuff is over anyway with Equibase and soon the DRF publishing them in the PP's.

True, but my point was NYRA is going to make things unnecessarily difficult.

[andymays]

True, but my point was NYRA is going to make things unnecessarily difficult.


I haven't dealt with them before so you would know better than me.

[cj]

I haven't dealt with them before so you would know better than me.

What I am saying is even if the run up is reported, having it randomly placed to possibly avoid tire marks is pretty weak. It is adding one more variable to a game that doesn't need them. Try explaining moving run ups to a newcomer to the game for races at the same supposed distance.

[andymays]

What I am saying is even if the run up is reported, having it randomly placed to possibly avoid tire marks is pretty weak. It is adding one more variable to a game that doesn't need them. Try explaining moving run ups to a newcomer to the game for races at the same supposed distance.


You opinion is right on!

[Tom]

Here is my take on it.....who would believe NYRA would actually make a point to report true placements every race? Not me. Thankfully, I seldom play any NYRA races, so They can do what they please. They lost credibility with me years ago during the turn-down shoe controversy. It as evident to me that customers take a back seat at NYRA to certain trainers and owners. They get my action today and once year at Toga, which I am even passing up this year after the pathetic experience there last year.

[thruncy]

If the runups were to actually change for same distance races on the same day, then having that information would clearly help handicapping, but as long as runups are consistent, the first fraction times will be consistent, and variants for the first fraction can be calculated, which would adjust for different runups at different tracks and distances.Variants--nee variation--can be calculated....As long as....

[formula_2002]

The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.
I remenber him and his function.
My question is, why have a runup and an automatic starting gate?

[46zilzal]

What I am saying is even if the run up is reported, having it randomly placed to possibly avoid tire marks is pretty weak. It is adding one more variable to a game that doesn't need them. Try explaining moving run ups to a newcomer to the game for races at the same supposed distance.
MOVING runner ups are more fiction than fact as I have watched gate placement vary only a few feet day to day at most track, NOT ALL but most

GREAT THING about evaluating based upon energy distribution, start up distances would not matter a bit

[cj]

MOVING runner ups are more fiction than fact as I have watched gate placement vary only a few feet day to day at most track, NOT ALL but most

GREAT THING about evaluating based upon energy distribution, start up distances would not matter a bit

That seems a little silly, make that a lot silly, on a few counts.

First, you are at a track that has monumental moves from season to season. Now day to day they seem ok once they make up their mind where it is going for that meet.

I find it hilarious because you mention it only moves a few feet at some outpost of racing very few people follow that means it is more fiction than fact everywhere. That is simply not true. Some tracks are just not as diligent as apparently Hastings Park is, good for them.

As for your energy distribution, if you think varying run ups don't have an effect, good luck to you. I don't see any way a reasonable person could figure otherwise.

One example at Saratoga, the premier meet in the country right now, I have seen run ups at 6.5 furlongs of 48, 56, and 64 feet. The longer the run up, the faster the early fractions. How is that NOT going to effect %E or %M or whatever is the % flavor of the month? Even if you presume the horses are capable of finishing just as fast when the run up is longer (unlikely), the percentages are going to change.

[banacek]

It sure made a difference at Hastings. I wonder how faster than 9.58 seconds U. Bolt would run if he had a 20 foot run up?

[Tom]

The might be why Pha doesn't translate well in your program, 46? Varying run ups?

[cj]

The might be why Pha doesn't translate well in your program, 46? Varying run ups?

Pha is most certainly a track with haphazard run ups. I'm sure that has nothing to do with 46 though as he'll be sure to let us know.

[proximity]

Let me rephrase Glen's answer:

Andy,

We honestly don't care if people want consistent run up distances. We will put the gate wherever we feel like putting it. Live with it.

Glen

i'll be up on thursday. maybe glen can stop by the tent (?) and give a seminar on run-ups, tire tracks, and par times before the card?:jump:

[Show Me the Wire]

Inconsistent run-ups are unfair to the connections too. Imagine your horse gets caught in the last stride because the run-up is twenty feet further than the earlier race, which makes you suffer a significant financial setback in purse distributtion.


So you see it is a problem for the connections, as well as, the handicappers.

[Thomas Roulston]

It does make sense that, after the long run-up for the dirt mile (172 feet), the run-ups for the longer two-turn dirt races taper off steadily after that.

By the way, the run-up at 1 1/16 miles on the "all-weather" at Arlington - no more auxiliary finish line; see this link (https://www.arlingtonpark.com/news/archives/arlington-adjusts-start-1-116-mile-races) - is 150 feet, and the run-up for those ridiculous 1-mile dirt races at Keeneland is 210 feet, in addition to using an auxiliary finish line - and they had the nerve to run a Breeders' Cup race (the Dirt Mile) under such circumstances?

[fellowmen]

That is the point, the run ups are not consistent, even on the same race card. Some tracks are better than others, and some days more consistent than others.

It depends on how much sleep the tractorman got the night before