Seeking advise

[Will Gamble]

Howdy to you all or, should I say it properly, hi y'all.

I am a recreational horse player who wants to see if he can improve his picks and hopefully get good enough before he retires in 7 years to make gambling on horses an affordable hobby.

I lived in Shreveport in the 70's when they opened LA Downs and went ever day for about 3 years before moving away and now just go to an OTB in Mounds La off and on. I bought Mike Pizzolla's Handicapping Magic and that is about all I know about anyones 'system.' I understand a fair amount about some general things, but this is the first number crunching book I have read.

I would like to get your advise on where to get past performance information in raw data form. I only want to get a couple Louisiana Downs races each week and see what I can do with the data using SQL server and Visual Basic. I have looked at Brisnet and DRF. DRf seems to expensive for what I want to do and I don't fully understand Brisnets program yet. The other problem I discovered with Brisnets sample is that it contains 1043 columns of information and SQL server will only import a maximum of 1024. Of course, if Brisnet is the source of choice, it won't be a problem to elliminate some columns before importing it.

Anyhow, long story made short... Who do you suggest for delimited past performance data.

Thanks in advance

[BillW]

WG,

The multiple file format that Bris offers may help you out.

http://www.bris.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=drfmff

[ranchwest]

WG,

The multiple file format that Bris offers may help you out.

http://www.bris.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=drfmff

Yeah, I would think that if you're going to use SQL Server that you'd want to normalize the data into multiple tables so I wouldn't let the width of the raw data bother me.

[Will Gamble]

Yeah, I would think that if you're going to use SQL Server that you'd want to normalize the data into multiple tables so I wouldn't let the width of the raw data bother me.

Good point, I hadn't considered that... duh. I guess I will break it up with something and then import the separate files.

I take it that you think Bris is the best available source then?

I guess they explain their deal somewhere on the website. I noticed you had a $30 and $100 membership plan and I guess there are different perks for each one.

I just didn't want to start with the wrong source of data and have to do it over again. I am a mainframe programmer by trade and it will take me a while to get familiar with VB. I have done some work with VB and this will help me get more comfortable with it.

All my spare time for the last five years has gone into online poker and it is time to switch gears as I am bored with that.

Thanks again

[ranchwest]

Good point, I hadn't considered that... duh. I guess I will break it up with something and then import the separate files.

I take it that you think Bris is the best available source then?

I guess they explain their deal somewhere on the website. I noticed you had a $30 and $100 membership plan and I guess there are different perks for each one.

I just didn't want to start with the wrong source of data and have to do it over again. I am a mainframe programmer by trade and it will take me a while to get familiar with VB. I have done some work with VB and this will help me get more comfortable with it.

All my spare time for the last five years has gone into online poker and it is time to switch gears as I am bored with that.

Thanks again

I can't really tell you which is best. I use the TSN ProCaps files. It works okay for me, but it has taken me a while to figure out what some of the "reserved" fields really are. There's a lot that ARE defined.

[raybo]

Bris has the DRF files that cost $1 per track per day. Then they have the MCP files which are $3 per track per day (but if you're a silver member they are $1, $30 minimum per month). TSN has the $.50 files (same format as the .DRF files) and the ProCaps files (same format as the MCP files). TSN files and Bris files are very similar but TSN lacks some of the data that the Bris files have.

Basically, the $.50 TSN and the $1 DRF files have everything the ProCaps and MCP files have except Race Ratings, Class Ratings, and Prime Power figures. There are a few other differences but there aren't many.

All these files are single file format files with 1400+ fields in them. If you have Excel 2007 you can open them in Excel and then split them into separate tables for import into your DB. Otherwise you must parse them or use the DRF multifile format files.

[CBedo]

Actually, the drf files do have the Primer Power rating now.

[CBedo]

One more thing, the multicap files are $2, even with the higher memberships. I got excited for a minute that I would be able to get the class and race ratings for a buck. Rats!

[BillW]

One more thing, the multicap files are $2, even with the higher memberships. I got excited for a minute that I would be able to get the class and race ratings for a buck. Rats!

What about the $59/month TSN equivalent?

[CBedo]

What about the $59/month TSN equivalent?I didn't think the class rating numbers were in the ProCAPS files. I just looked at the structure, and in the description, it says it contains class ratings, but I didn't find it any of the defined fields?

Also, another quick question about the TSN files. Are the pace numbers the same as the BRIS pace numbers? I know the TSN contain BRIS race shape data.

I wish BRIS would do something like this with their multicaps or the drf files. It would be nice to download unlimited files for a decent price.

[BillW]

I didn't think the class rating numbers were in the ProCAPS files. I just looked at the structure, and in the description, it says it contains class ratings, but I didn't find it any of the defined fields?

Also, another quick question about the TSN files. Are the pace numbers the same as the BRIS pace numbers? I know the TSN contain BRIS race shape data.

I wish BRIS would do something like this with their multicaps or the drf files. It would be nice to download unlimited files for a decent price.

It's been a few years since I've used them, but If I remember correctly the Class and race ratings were in two of the mystery (undefined) fields. I figured that out by association (looking at similar file definitions from the Bris product library). I believe the pace numbers are not compatible I remember having problems when switching from Bris to TSN and having to keep them separate. But I'd confirm this with someone more familiar with them.

[CBedo]

Thanks. I just installed ProCAPS for fun and it does have the race and class ratings, so you must be correct that they are just in field that isn't defined in the structure library. Good to know. Thanks.

I sent BRIS asking them if there was any chance they might offer any similar unlimited program any time soon, hehe. I won't keep my fingers crossed...

[Toss_DeLoser]

WillGamble, I'll be at Mound today and tomorrow, in the back by the bar sucking on a Mt. Dew with no form.

[raybo]

Thanks. I just installed ProCAPS for fun and it does have the race and class ratings, so you must be correct that they are just in field that isn't defined in the structure library. Good to know. Thanks.

I sent BRIS asking them if there was any chance they might offer any similar unlimited program any time soon, hehe. I won't keep my fingers crossed...

Thanks for correcting my errors in the previous post. I would think that Bris would listen to your inquiry concerning unlimited pricing for the PPs. They have it for the charts.

Also, the DRF single and multi files are now called PP files.

[ranchwest]

Thanks. I just installed ProCAPS for fun and it does have the race and class ratings, so you must be correct that they are just in field that isn't defined in the structure library. Good to know. Thanks.

I sent BRIS asking them if there was any chance they might offer any similar unlimited program any time soon, hehe. I won't keep my fingers crossed...

Yeah, that's how I found the race and class ratings, matching the ProCaps display to the delimited data. There's a lot of data that is listed as "reserved" in the docs that is actually real data. For instance, AE and MTO is in a field but the docs don't mention it. That's pretty desirable info if you're playing NYRA, for instance.

[ranchwest]

Good point, I hadn't considered that... duh. I guess I will break it up with something and then import the separate files.

I take it that you think Bris is the best available source then?

I guess they explain their deal somewhere on the website. I noticed you had a $30 and $100 membership plan and I guess there are different perks for each one.

I just didn't want to start with the wrong source of data and have to do it over again. I am a mainframe programmer by trade and it will take me a while to get familiar with VB. I have done some work with VB and this will help me get more comfortable with it.

All my spare time for the last five years has gone into online poker and it is time to switch gears as I am bored with that.

Thanks again

Also, if you normalize the data with unique keys, you can decline duplicate data and save a lot of disk space and file records that way.

[Will Gamble]

WillGamble, I'll be at Mound today and tomorrow, in the back by the bar sucking on a Mt. Dew with no form.

I only go on weekends since I have a real job to tend too.

Maybe I can catch you there some other time. I hope there nobody else drinks MD. :)

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I will keep you posted with my progress.

[Will Gamble]

Interesting. I went to Brisnet this morning to get the file layout and a sample so I could start working on something to break the 1423 column file up into individual files. What I found this morning was a chart layout marked 'new' and the sample file was actually 6 different files.

I am uncertain if this is new from Bris of if I just stumbled upon something different this morning. I didn't want to subscribe to a data feed until I was certain it was what I wanted/needed.

This six file setup seems pretty good, if only they had the field names on the first line.

I guess I will just have to take the plunge and find out.

[CBedo]

Interesting. I went to Brisnet this morning to get the file layout and a sample so I could start working on something to break the 1423 column file up into individual files. What I found this morning was a chart layout marked 'new' and the sample file was actually 6 different files.

I am uncertain if this is new from Bris of if I just stumbled upon something different this morning. I didn't want to subscribe to a data feed until I was certain it was what I wanted/needed.

This six file setup seems pretty good, if only they had the field names on the first line.

I guess I will just have to take the plunge and find out.That sounds like the comprehensive chart files, which you can get an unlimited subscription to. The 6 file setup is not too bad; it's actually somewhat relational.

[Will Gamble]

When you say 'you can get an unlimited supply,' does that mean you can't get one track for one day?

Initially I want to download a few files to work with and don't mind the $30 membership if that will get me data files for $1 per day/track. When I looked at DRF it appeared that unlimited data files were your only choice and they were more than I wanted to spend at this point.

Thanks

[raybo]

Interesting. I went to Brisnet this morning to get the file layout and a sample so I could start working on something to break the 1423 column file up into individual files. What I found this morning was a chart layout marked 'new' and the sample file was actually 6 different files.

I am uncertain if this is new from Bris of if I just stumbled upon something different this morning. I didn't want to subscribe to a data feed until I was certain it was what I wanted/needed.

This six file setup seems pretty good, if only they had the field names on the first line.

I guess I will just have to take the plunge and find out.

Are you looking for past performances or results/charts files? In your initial post you were talking about past performances. Now you're talking about the Comprehensive Charts files. (?)

[CBedo]

When you say 'you can get an unlimited supply,' does that mean you can't get one track for one day?

Initially I want to download a few files to work with and don't mind the $30 membership if that will get me data files for $1 per day/track. When I looked at DRF it appeared that unlimited data files were your only choice and they were more than I wanted to spend at this point.

ThanksYou don't have to get an unlimited plan. They have single file pricing. If I remember right, they are 50 cents a pop (could be wrong). Just note that these are charts, not PPs.

[Will Gamble]

Are you looking for past performances or results/charts files? In your initial post you were talking about past performances. Now you're talking about the Comprehensive Charts files. (?)

WhenI first *glanced* at it this morning before work I thought I saw fields that would have past performance, but now I don't think so. This is why I am asking, because I am notorious for jumping to conclusions only to find out I should have looked more closely.

Back to the big file - PP data files (single)

This is going to be quite an effort parsing all this out, typing in field names and properties etc.

Thanks again

[CBedo]

WhenI first *glanced* at it this morning before work I thought I saw fields that would have past performance, but now I don't think so. This is why I am asking, because I am notorious for jumping to conclusions only to find out I should have looked more closely.

Back to the big file - PP data files (single)

This is going to be quite an effort parsing all this out, typing in field names and properties etc.

Thanks againSome time ago, I went through the drf files quickly and put in a somewhat descriptive label for the drf files (not exactly the bris description). I'd be more than welcome to share. PM me your email address if you want it and I'll try to dig it up.

[Will Gamble]

I downloaded a file description from their site but wouldn't mind seeing what you have if you find it.

My email is will_gamble2 at yahoo dot com

[raybo]

I downloaded a file description from their site but wouldn't mind seeing what you have if you find it.

My email is will_gamble2 at yahoo dot com

You could always import the file into Excel. Separate the data for your tables with field names then export to your DB.

[Wiseguy]

Yes, one could use Excel 2007, as it will Import up to 2048 columns/fields,. However, if you're like me (God forbid) and you want to automate the process then Excel just won't do. If you have mad skills and can parse and normalize the data on the way in, that's the way to go in the long run. If not, a good alternative would be to use InfoTransFOR, which is available at the BRIS site for free: http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/dynamic.cgi?page=utils.

The InfoTransFOR utility will allow you to parse and arrange the data fields to your liking, and will also allow you to Import each line of a PP as an individual record, rather than all PP lines as one overly wide record. Of course there's still work to be done on the data once you Import it but at least it can get the entire file in with one operation, as opposed to the BRIS multi-file format. If you decide to try it and need any help, PM me. Adversely, if you write a VB routine to Import your data, and it's something that would work in Access, I'd be interested in getting help from you instead. :)

As for which file you use, if you're only handicapping 8-10 days max, per month, I'd go with the TSN .50 cent file. No need for any type of membership and your monthly cost wouldn't go over a measly $5. As for any unique BRIS ratings, TSN has their own Power Rating (Field 251) and Field 15, which is listed as "Reserved for future use" is actually some sort of Race Class rating. There appears to be some other new fields, for example, the formerly blank field 275 now displays the number of days since the previous race for the 10th race back. Unfortunately the structure information hasn't been updated for a couple years. The file which "almost" lists the format structure is here: http://www.tsnhorse.com/downloads/eqb_sing.txt

And a sample of the .50 "TSN Past Performance Data File" is here: http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/HTML/products.html (scroll down)

Your Past Performance data starts in Filed 256 and runs through Field 1145. There are a total of 1,435 fields in the file. You can open it in Excel 2007 and see the data at fields IV through ARA. If you opt to use InfoTransFOR then you simply use the number listed in the File Structure. The data still needs to be normalized as it's all in a single, flat table, with plenty of redundant data. Again, if you can send it into the proper tables during the Import, life will be much easier down the road. I'm currently working on a way to get my imported data into the appropriate tables but I have no programming experience and I'm just learning to use Access, which is proving to be a challenge for that task (for me). I imagine your goal is similar to mine, in that you want to view the data in a certain way, and/or, perform your own calculations on the data. Good luck and if I can help, I'll try.

[Will Gamble]

Wiseguy,

Lots of information there, thanks. I will look into it all.

Even though I am a programmer by trade, I am not a VB programmer. There are many youngsters in the shop that are real good with VB and I have written a few VB apps. I am much more experienced with Access, but mostly using the sql query to select and format data. I found that a little limited and decided if I was going to use VB I might as well load Visual Studio and learn that while I was at it.

I think that I need to decide which data source to use and long term I am leaning toward the Bris file, but I haven't looked closely at their deal. At this point I just want past performance information to make Pizzolla fulcrum and balanced speed calculations. From there I will integrate other concepts as I learn about them here.

If I go with Bris I will be looking for suggestions on how to normalize the data and would be happy to share the parsing program.


Thanks

[ranchwest]

Yes, one could use Excel 2007, as it will Import up to 2048 columns/fields,. However, if you're like me (God forbid) and you want to automate the process then Excel just won't do. If you have mad skills and can parse and normalize the data on the way in, that's the way to go in the long run. If not, a good alternative would be to use InfoTransFOR, which is available at the BRIS site for free: http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/dynamic.cgi?page=utils.

The InfoTransFOR utility will allow you to parse and arrange the data fields to your liking, and will also allow you to Import each line of a PP as an individual record, rather than all PP lines as one overly wide record. Of course there's still work to be done on the data once you Import it but at least it can get the entire file in with one operation, as opposed to the BRIS multi-file format. If you decide to try it and need any help, PM me. Adversely, if you write a VB routine to Import your data, and it's something that would work in Access, I'd be interested in getting help from you instead. :)

As for which file you use, if you're only handicapping 8-10 days max, per month, I'd go with the TSN .50 cent file. No need for any type of membership and your monthly cost wouldn't go over a measly $5. As for any unique BRIS ratings, TSN has their own Power Rating (Field 251) and Field 15, which is listed as "Reserved for future use" is actually some sort of Race Class rating. There appears to be some other new fields, for example, the formerly blank field 275 now displays the number of days since the previous race for the 10th race back. Unfortunately the structure information hasn't been updated for a couple years. The file which "almost" lists the format structure is here: http://www.tsnhorse.com/downloads/eqb_sing.txt

And a sample of the .50 "TSN Past Performance Data File" is here: http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/HTML/products.html (scroll down)

Your Past Performance data starts in Filed 256 and runs through Field 1145. There are a total of 1,435 fields in the file. You can open it in Excel 2007 and see the data at fields IV through ARA. If you opt to use InfoTransFOR then you simply use the number listed in the File Structure. The data still needs to be normalized as it's all in a single, flat table, with plenty of redundant data. Again, if you can send it into the proper tables during the Import, life will be much easier down the road. I'm currently working on a way to get my imported data into the appropriate tables but I have no programming experience and I'm just learning to use Access, which is proving to be a challenge for that task (for me). I imagine your goal is similar to mine, in that you want to view the data in a certain way, and/or, perform your own calculations on the data. Good luck and if I can help, I'll try.

Does anyone know what that TSN field 15 is? It appears to be some sort of par, but I can't figure out exactly what it is. I seem to have most of the others.

[Wiseguy]

Does anyone know what that TSN field 15 is? It appears to be some sort of par, but I can't figure out exactly what it is. I seem to have most of the others.

I checked with TSN regarding Field 15 and it is, indeed, a Race Class Rating. As an example, the races at Belmont last Saturday ranged from a low of 66.82, a Maiden race, to the Belmont Stakes at 144. According to TSN this field is currently still in "testing." As a matter of fact, any fields that are not listed on the File Structure list are not yet "official" and are in testing or are experimental. It is undecided at this time if those fields will find a permanent home in the data files . Fields 219-223 would be included in that group. I was in error when I stated that the file needs updating. It actually is current for the fields that TSN supports.

[ranchwest]

That is mighty interesting because that means that some of the fields that they don't support in the Procaps files are used by the Procaps software.

[CBedo]

Wiseguy,

Lots of information there, thanks. I will look into it all.

Even though I am a programmer by trade, I am not a VB programmer. There are many youngsters in the shop that are real good with VB and I have written a few VB apps. I am much more experienced with Access, but mostly using the sql query to select and format data. I found that a little limited and decided if I was going to use VB I might as well load Visual Studio and learn that while I was at it.

I think that I need to decide which data source to use and long term I am leaning toward the Bris file, but I haven't looked closely at their deal. At this point I just want past performance information to make Pizzolla fulcrum and balanced speed calculations. From there I will integrate other concepts as I learn about them here.

If I go with Bris I will be looking for suggestions on how to normalize the data and would be happy to share the parsing program.


ThanksIn choosing which file, make sure to think about how much you will use it in the future. If you will be playing multiple tracks per day for more than a couple days a week, then you probably should spend a little more now to save later. The TSN proCaps files although more expensive than than the BRIS drf file (it does contain a little extra info like race/class ratings) have an unlimited plan where you get the data file and the exotic results files to go with it. This is just under 60 a month. So if you think you might use 60 or more files a month down the road, I'd go this way.

[raybo]

Yes, one could use Excel 2007, as it will Import up to 2048 columns/fields,. However, if you're like me (God forbid) and you want to automate the process then Excel just won't do. If you have mad skills and can parse and normalize the data on the way in, that's the way to go in the long run. If not, a good alternative would be to use InfoTransFOR, which is available at the BRIS site for free: http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/dynamic.cgi?page=utils.

The InfoTransFOR utility will allow you to parse and arrange the data fields to your liking, and will also allow you to Import each line of a PP as an individual record, rather than all PP lines as one overly wide record. Of course there's still work to be done on the data once you Import it but at least it can get the entire file in with one operation, as opposed to the BRIS multi-file format. If you decide to try it and need any help, PM me. Adversely, if you write a VB routine to Import your data, and it's something that would work in Access, I'd be interested in getting help from you instead. :)



This is what I had in mind, I have Excel 2007 but wouldn't think of just opening a Bris file, as is. It's much better to use Infotran to parse the data and organize it the way you want it. The control file is the key to all that and allows the user to do almost anything concerning which data and in what order that data comes into Excel. Most new users of Infotran can't figure out how to modify the included control files or write one from scratch. It's really not that difficult once you see what the included control file does with the data, then you simply modify it to do what you want it to do.

[ranchwest]

Can InfoTran process all of the files you haven't yet processed as one process? Just one instruction from the user?

[Wiseguy]

Can InfoTran process all of the files you haven't yet processed as one process? Just one instruction from the user?

Unfortunately not. You can only process one file at a time, and you can only produce one flat table from that process. Worse yet, it's DOS based and you have to type in three file names; your control file, the name of your data file, and a name for the output file. It is, however, lightning fast, and in my opinion, the best free choice to get the job done. If you consider the solutions that cost money there's Import Wizard ( http://www.beside.com/ ) which will do much more, but runs $149. It's a Windows based GUI, and if you're using Access or Excel it will even incorporate itself into that application. Access will also open external programs so you can program it to open the InfoTran dialog from within your database/application.

[ranchwest]

Yeah, or it would be possible to write a program that writes a DOS batch file so that processing all of the files would be somewhat automated, assuming that each iteration can be run from the DOS prompt without intervention.

What I need is something that would download ProCaps files from Vista. It gets old getting the files one at a time.

[Tom]

Here's a solution - join the files an dthen process the one combined file.
Simple File Joiner is a great little program that I have been using for a long time. You select which files to join, then name the output file, and the orignals are untouched.

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/sfj.html

[ranchwest]

TSN ProCaps field 15 is the track record.

[Wiseguy]

TSN ProCaps field 15 is the track record.

Interesting, because the person, Matt, who I talked to at TSN, told me that the rating was related to Class for the race. While track records are typically held by higher class horses, that's quite a generalization. Upon comparing the Belmont day's races I can see that the field is directly proportional to the distance of the race. Thanks for the update ranchwest, the field might be useful to me now.

[CBedo]

Here's a solution - join the files an dthen process the one combined file.
Simple File Joiner is a great little program that I have been using for a long time. You select which files to join, then name the output file, and the orignals are untouched.

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/sfj.htmlEven easeir way (with a windows machine) is to pull up the good ol' command prompt and just use the copy function.

"copy *.drf newfile.txt" will copy combine all the drf files in the current directory into one file.

[Tom]

CBedoe........no kidding?
I used to use that in the good old DOS day ( it's been downhill since DOS 3.1!)
That's good to know - I will definitely give it a shot.....thanks!

[CBedo]

CBedoe........no kidding?
I used to use that in the good old DOS day ( it's been downhill since DOS 3.1!)
That's good to know - I will definitely give it a shot.....thanks!
I had forgotten all the old DOS stuff as well. I was trying to find an easy way to combine the csv files into one and wasted a bunch of time searching google and looking at freeware. Then, for some some unknown reason, the DOS copy command just popped into my head. Remembering the wild card characters was the hardest part, lol.