Possible Changes/Additions to NYRA Wagering Menu?

[Vinman]

Hi Folks.....

Earlier this week I sent a letter to Charles Hayward and Hal Handel at NYRA, requesting four "upgrades" to the NYRA wagering menu, namely.....

o Addition of a 50 cent Pick 5 wager, with a carryover provision

o Reduction of the minimum wager for the Pick 4, Pick 3 and Trifecta to 50 cents.

o Addition of a "Show Pick All" wager....same principle as the SoCal Place Pick All, except including the show spot, with a carryover provision.

o An experimental reduction in the Pick 6 minimum wager to $1.00 for the Saratoga & Belmont fall meets.

In this 9 page letter, (which I tried to post here but I think its length made my posting too long to go through) I spent quite a bit of space on the IRS withholding issue, which this Board has been instrumental in bringing to the forefront via the link to HR 2140. I actually sent each of them as part of my 3 ring binder of "stuff" a printout of all the linked material, including the bill itself, posted on 5/18 under the "Action Required on Withholding" topic by Dean T.

I also encouraged them to stop by here and check out the postings on PaceAdvantage.com.

Feel free to sound off as to which of the four above recommended changes to the NYRA wagering menu would you most like to see happen? Least? Any others?

What other suggestions would you have for Charlie & Hal? They just may read it right here!

Vinman

[OTM Al]

I'm sure they will read your input, but they aren't the ones that control these things. The New York State Racing and Wagering Board is where you want to lobby as well as they are the ones that ultimately set what New York tracks are allowed to do. Contact info is here:

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/

[Vinman]

Al:

Back in early April 2001 I wrote a letter to Barry Schwartz, then CEO at NYRA, about putting in a Pick 4 wager, which they then didn't have, believe it or not. They put the wager in at the start of the 2001 Belmont Spring meet. Bill Nader at the time told me it was something they were thinking of doing, but my letter kind of clinched it. I actually send along a copy of my 2001 corrspondence between Bill, Barry & myself kinda for "good luck".

Evidently Bill & Barry did everything that needed to be done with the NY State Wagering Board to get it put in place.

I view my job in sending the letter to SELL these ideas to NYRA brass, without whose support it ain't gonna happen, regardless of what the NYSWB says.

I have my fingers crossed, especially on the 50 cent Pick 4 & Pick 5.

Vinman

[bishlap]

A $1 pick-6 will definitely increase handle...I can't tell u how many times I wanted 2 horses in each leg only to do the math and cut back from the $128 total to a more manageable amount for my monetary tastes. I usually end up betting into the p-3's and 4's b/c of the $1 option. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person that feels this way. BTW, NYRA hasn't been the same since Barry Schwartz left. Here's hoping your suggestion(s) get a review.

[Indulto]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/05302009-a-horseplayers-appetite-demands-a-varied-menu/#comments (http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/05302009-a-horseplayers-appetite-demands-a-varied-menu/#comments)
A Horseplayer’s Appetite Demands a Varied Menu
By John Pricci May 30, 2009My friend “The Vinman” is at it again. I know that there are several Vinmans populating racing chat rooms everywhere, but we‘re talking about the REAL Vinman here.

… Vinman also would like to see a $1 Pick 6 with mandatory payout offered on an experimental basis, based on the highly successful Hollywood Park experience. …VM,
You are my hero.

I’ve been advocating a lower minimum Pick 6 on weekends and holidays when there isn’t a carryover from the previous day. I look forward to reading your material. :ThmbUp:

[OTM Al]

Al:

Back in early April 2001 I wrote a letter to Barry Schwartz, then CEO at NYRA, about putting in a Pick 4 wager, which they then didn't have, believe it or not. They put the wager in at the start of the 2001 Belmont Spring meet. Bill Nader at the time told me it was something they were thinking of doing, but my letter kind of clinched it. I actually send along a copy of my 2001 corrspondence between Bill, Barry & myself kinda for "good luck".

Evidently Bill & Barry did everything that needed to be done with the NY State Wagering Board to get it put in place.

I view my job in sending the letter to SELL these ideas to NYRA brass, without whose support it ain't gonna happen, regardless of what the NYSWB says.

I have my fingers crossed, especially on the 50 cent Pick 4 & Pick 5.

Vinman

I would think a 50 cent P4 has a good chance to happen. However, you are going to have your fingers crossed for a very long time on the rest. A P5 will never happen because there is no point to it. Places that have a P5 don't do a P6. Just no point to that increment given the current wagering menu, especially if the P6 would drop to a dollar and the P4 to 50 cents. I'm doubtful if they will mess with the P6. The NY P6 is the premier P6 in the country. Other P6 wagers probably did increase pools a lot by making smaller increments, but there really wasn't much there worthwhile other than CA and one day in KY in the first place. I think the bet should stay as is. It is the gold standard and IMO should be hard and should make bettors make hard choices.

Remember though, the political landscape in NY in general and racing in particular has changed greatly in the last decade. This is why I suggest you lobby the controlling party as well, and I wouldn't send them a 9 page letter but rather a very succinct brief on why you think this should be done. NYRA people may well read all of a 9 page letter from a concerned fan, but I guarantee state officials will not.

[Vinman]

John:

Has anyone told you today that you're the greatest writer in the history of the American turf? : ) : )

If not, let me be the first!

Great piece.....let's hope it helps move us all one step closer to enjoying 50 cent P5, P4, P3 & Tri minimum wagers at the SPA this summer, not to mention a $1.00 Pick 6.

Just a slight correction....there was actually a $2.00 minumum on that first $1,000,000 Guaranteed Pick 6 at HOL on 6/14/98. Too bad they didn't keep the mandatory payout provision in place.

Wouldn't it be something if NYRA had a mandatory payout for their $1,000,000 Guaranteed Pick 6 pool on Belmont Stakes Day?

Vinman

[Vinman]

Al:

Oak Tree at Santa Anita has a $1.00 Pick 5 as well as the P6. As part of my "presentation" to NYRA I provided them with projected Pick 5 figures for the 2008 SPA meet based on the relationship between the Oak Tree late Pick 4 and their Pick 5 handle figures.

In terms of Pick 6 handle, the "Gold Standard" is now the Southern California tracks....and this is coming from a lifelong Jersey boy. Whereas in the '80's NYRA could routinely generate a 50K+ one day Pick 6 carryover, nowadays its under 40K. I think it was 38K the other day.

The day before Hollywood's 300K Guaranteed Pick 6 last Monday, they had a one day carryover of $109,000, which enabled them to top 800K on Monday. So if you are talking "handle" in terms of Pick 6 dominance, Southern California wears the crown.

This being the case, why not experiment with a $1.00 Pick 6 minimum at NYRA....and see if the handle goes up. If it doesn't work out, they can always change it back to a deuce.

I'll let Charlie & Hal file with the NY State Wagering board if they think they want to follow through on any of my suggestions. They don't need me to do that for them.


Vinman

[fmolf]

Al:

Oak Tree at Santa Anita has a $1.00 Pick 5 as well as the P6. As part of my "presentation" to NYRA I provided them with projected Pick 5 figures for the 2008 SPA meet based on the relationship between the Oak Tree late Pick 4 and their Pick 5 handle figures.

In terms of Pick 6 handle, the "Gold Standard" is now the Southern California tracks....and this is coming from a lifelong Jersey boy. Whereas in the '80's NYRA could routinely generate a 50K+ one day Pick 6 carryover, nowadays its under 40K. I think it was 38K the other day.

The day before Hollywood's 300K Guaranteed Pick 6 last Monday, they had a one day carryover of $109,000, which enabled them to top 800K on Monday. So if you are talking "handle" in terms of Pick 6 dominance, Southern California wears the crown.

This being the case, why not experiment with a $1.00 Pick 6 minimum at NYRA....and see if the handle goes up. If it doesn't work out, they can always change it back to a deuce.

I'll let Charlie & Hal file with the NY State Wagering board if they think they want to follow through on any of my suggestions. They don't need me to do that for them.


Vinman
i am not a pick 5 or 6 player so i would not care if they made those changes.... i do not want to see the p3 at 50 cents but would welcome the pick 4 being fifty cents allowing all to include more long shots......i think the tri should be left at $1 the frugal exotic players have their 10 cent super's

[DanG]

Al:

Oak Tree at Santa Anita has a $1.00 Pick 5 as well as the P6.
$2 minimum on the P6, not $1.

The overwhelming goal of the track concerning the P6 is carry-overs. A $1 minimum would obviously greatly reduce them and most of the revenue they generate.

On closing day with a forced payout…I guess you could offer $1; even though it’s not at all fair to the people who funded most of the pool. It’s like letting someone sit out a hand in hold-em poker and then allowing them back in on the river when the pot odds gets juicy.

BTW: I agree with your .50 min on the P4 etc. long overdue.

[fmolf]

is their any eveidence about what happens to trifecta payoffs when the minimum is reduced? seems to me the payoffs might drop with the extended coverage many tri players would be afforded...i only occasionally wade into the tri pools so i am not very familiar with what has happened at other tracks offering it as a 50 cent minimum

[Imriledup]

is their any eveidence about what happens to trifecta payoffs when the minimum is reduced? seems to me the payoffs might drop with the extended coverage many tri players would be afforded...i only occasionally wade into the tri pools so i am not very familiar with what has happened at other tracks offering it as a 50 cent minimum

The longer priced Tri's would suffer with the 50 cent bet, but the smaller 'chalk' tri's might get a boost.
I love the 50 cent tri option, it gives you a great cushion for not triggering IRS.

[lamboguy]

Al:

Back in early April 2001 I wrote a letter to Barry Schwartz, then CEO at NYRA, about putting in a Pick 4 wager, which they then didn't have, believe it or not. They put the wager in at the start of the 2001 Belmont Spring meet. Bill Nader at the time told me it was something they were thinking of doing, but my letter kind of clinched it. I actually send along a copy of my 2001 corrspondence between Bill, Barry & myself kinda for "good luck".

Evidently Bill & Barry did everything that needed to be done with the NY State Wagering Board to get it put in place.

I view my job in sending the letter to SELL these ideas to NYRA brass, without whose support it ain't gonna happen, regardless of what the NYSWB says.

I have my fingers crossed, especially on the 50 cent Pick 4 & Pick 5.

Vinmani am glad to hear that they listened to you. you know the people at NYRA are not that bad. i only wish they step up to the plate and try to make some meaningfull reforms in the game.

[fmolf]

The longer priced Tri's would suffer with the 50 cent bet, but the smaller 'chalk' tri's might get a boost.
I love the 50 cent tri option, it gives you a great cushion for not triggering IRS.
you would need to hit a 50 cent tri for $150 dollars right?I usually do not play chalk tri's as i prefer to load up in the exacta pools... i also think they should get rid of that silly grand slam wager!

[Imriledup]

you would need to hit a 50 cent tri for $150 dollars right?I usually do not play chalk tri's as i prefer to load up in the exacta pools... i also think they should get rid of that silly grand slam wager!

No, the only way a 50 cent tri is a signer is if it pays 600 or more. If you hit a 50 cent tri that pays 599 for 50 cents, you don't sign.

[Vinman]

For anyone who may be interested, here are the Pick 5 handle and payoff figures for the 2008 Oak Tree at Santa Anita meet that I submitted to NYRA as part of my "proposal" that they consider putting in a Pick 5 wager....

Date Pick 5 Pool Pick 5 Payoff

9/24 $53,401 $2,248.50
9/25 $45,774 $9,043.30
9/26 $63,446 $4,186.80
9/27 $95,097 $209.20
9/28 $72,765 $4,588.60 (on 4 of 5)

10/1 $69,370 $18,942.30
10/2 $54,057 $8,534.50
10/3 $45,468 $12.008.00
10/4 $65,948 $17,413.70
10/5 $100,521 $11,364.30

10/8 $65,104 $3,438.30
10/9 $57,309 $5,041.40
10/10 $61,622 $3,252.40
10/11 $87,950 $9,948.40
10/12 $90,775 $2,090.30

10/13 $90,830 $23,964.60
10/15 $82,297 $65,169.20
10/16 $95,310 $330.20
10/17 $77,202 $255.10
10/18 $112,593 $654.40
10/19 $94,433 $12,455.50

10/22 $70,228 $2,780.80
10/23 $73,977 $15,558.10


Unfortunately the Pick 5 wager was not offered on Breeders' Cup weekend, as it was the year before at Monmouth.

What is interesting with the above Oak Tree handle figures, as I pointed out in my letter to NYRA, is that the average Pick 5 pool jumped from an average of $65,378 for the first 9 days of the meet to an average of $87,559 for the final 14 days it was offered, an increase of 34% that began with the California Cup day handle of $100,521 on Sunday, 10/5. That day's hefty Pick 5 payoff of $11,364.30 probably didn't hurt either.

Now, let's look at the above 23 Pick 5 payoffs from a perspective of "What if the minimum wager had been 50 cents instead of $1.00?

In that case, the four Pick 5 payoffs between $5,000 and $9,999, on 9/25, 10/2, 10/9 and 10/11, which were subject to 25% IRS mandatory withholding, would no longer be since the payoffs would be halved by the 50 cent minimum wager.

It is also quite possible that the Pick 5 payoffs on 10/3, 10/5 and 10/19, all between $10,000 and $12,500, may have had more winning tickets sold at a 50 cent minimum, possibly pushing those payoffs below the $5,000 mandatory threshhold as well. That would be as many as SEVEN Pick 5 payoffs out of 23 that would not be subject to mandatory withholding via the 50 cent minimum.

Let's hope that NYRA decides to add the Pick 5.....at a 50 cent minimum!!

If you like the idea, feel free to show your support right here!


Vinman

[Indulto]

... What is interesting with the above Oak Tree handle figures, as I pointed out in my letter to NYRA, is that the average Pick 5 pool jumped from an average of $65,378 for the first 9 days of the meet to an average of $87,559 for the final 14 days it was offered, an increase of 34% that began with the California Cup day handle of $100,521 on Sunday, 10/5. That day's hefty Pick 5 payoff of $11,364.30 probably didn't hurt either. ...VM,
I requested your spreadsheet from HRI and agree the column, "Pick 5 Pool as % of Late P4 pool" is the most interesting. Did you happen to look at the prior year's data as well to see what % of the prev. year late P4 pool the curr. year late P4 pool was?

Is there any way to see the full nine-page letter text, e.g., in a PDF that could be linked to? Perhaps HANA could help here?

[Vinman]

Still no "official" word back regarding our proposal to NYRA concerning changes in their wagering menu, consisting of:

o Change the minumum wager to 50 cents for Pick 4, Pick 3 and Trifecta.

o Add a 50 cent Pick 5 wager, with a carryover.

o Add a 50 cent "Daily Showdown" wager, idential to the West coast "Place Pick All", except down to the show spot.

o Reduce the minimum Pick 6 wager to $1.00 on an experimental basis, subject to fan feedback and handle evaluation before making the $1.00 P6 minimum permanent.

Even though I havent received an "official" response on this, there IS a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Our extremely well imbedded and consummately professional racing "mole" who we'll refer to by his unnofficial code name of "Saratoga John", himself a champion of the concept of "fractionalized wagering", was able to squeeze some precious tidbits of info out of the "suits" at NYRA on this subject. One suit revealed that the New York State Racing & Wagering Board is "working on changes that will affect Pick 3, Pick 4 and Pick 6 wagering." Geez, that means NYRA actually had to submit this to the Board!

And wowee!....with regard to any change that will affect the Pick 6. Let's think now...there are really only two things they can do with the Pick 6. One is lower the takeout, which is an area that Barry Schwartz did everything he possibly could to change in favor of the fan for all wagers during his tenure as NYRA Chairman. So that would seem to leave the $1.00 minimum as the other possibility. Wouldn't it be cool if NYRA gave this a go?

Of course we dare not fantasize about this folks, because as Saratoga John was told this week by a Wagering Board official "It's not soup yet". Neither is the resolution of another longstanding issue that has been kicking around for a number of years....the allowing of uncoupled entries in NYRA races. They're working on that too.

But the big revelation here folks is that NYRA actually took the proverbial ball and ran with it after receiving what they apparently believed were some "worthy" suggestions from a member of their clientele.

My guess is that whatever of the NYRA menu changes are ultimately approved by the NYSRWB will not be implemented in time for Saratoga.

As fate would have it, the NYSRWB holds a board meeting, according to their website, at the end of each month.....except one.....that would be June, the month immediately after NYRA received my "proposal". This assumes of course that an entiity that includes the word "Board" in its title would actually have to hold a "Board" meeting to approve any such changes. I'd love to be proved wrong about this!

We'll see what happens.....

Vinman

[Indulto]

Still no "official" word back regarding our proposal to NYRA concerning changes in their wagering menu, consisting of:

o Change the minumum wager to 50 cents for Pick 4, Pick 3 and Trifecta.

o Add a 50 cent Pick 5 wager, with a carryover.

o Add a 50 cent "Daily Showdown" wager, idential to the West coast "Place Pick All", except down to the show spot.

o Reduce the minimum Pick 6 wager to $1.00 on an experimental basis, subject to fan feedback and handle evaluation before making the $1.00 P6 minimum permanent.

Even though I havent received an "official" response on this, there IS a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Our extremely well imbedded and consummately professional racing "mole" who we'll refer to by his unnofficial code name of "Saratoga John", himself a champion of the concept of "fractionalized wagering", was able to squeeze some precious tidbits of info out of the "suits" at NYRA on this subject. One suit revealed that the New York State Racing & Wagering Board is "working on changes that will affect Pick 3, Pick 4 and Pick 6 wagering." Geez, that means NYRA actually had to submit this to the Board!

And wowee!....with regard to any change that will affect the Pick 6. Let's think now...there are really only two things they can do with the Pick 6. One is lower the takeout, which is an area that Barry Schwartz did everything he possibly could to change in favor of the fan for all wagers during his tenure as NYRA Chairman. So that would seem to leave the $1.00 minimum as the other possibility. Wouldn't it be cool if NYRA gave this a go?

Of course we dare not fantasize about this folks, because as Saratoga John was told this week by a Wagering Board official "It's not soup yet". Neither is the resolution of another longstanding issue that has been kicking around for a number of years....the allowing of uncoupled entries in NYRA races. They're working on that too.

But the big revelation here folks is that NYRA actually took the proverbial ball and ran with it after receiving what they apparently believed were some "worthy" suggestions from a member of their clientele.

My guess is that whatever of the NYRA menu changes are ultimately approved by the NYSRWB will not be implemented in time for Saratoga.

As fate would have it, the NYSRWB holds a board meeting, according to their website, at the end of each month.....except one.....that would be June, the month immediately after NYRA received my "proposal". This assumes of course that an entiity that includes the word "Board" in its title would actually have to hold a "Board" meeting to approve any such changes. I'd love to be proved wrong about this!

We'll see what happens.....

VinmanThanks for your efforts, Vinman. :ThmbUp:

Re: an experimental P6. In the past I've proposed that the P6 minimum be lowered on weekend days and holidays inless there is a carryover from the previous day. Any thoughts?

[fmolf]

No, the only way a 50 cent tri is a signer is if it pays 600 or more. If you hit a 50 cent tri that pays 599 for 50 cents, you don't sign.
I thought a signer was on any payout of 300/1 or more? $600 on a $2 bet...$300 on a $1 bet ....$150 on a 50cent bet.... i am assuming then that the amt. collected is all that matters.That amount is $600,anything lower no sign,at or over sign.

[Spendabuck85]

I thought a signer was on any payout of 300/1 or more? $600 on a $2 bet...$300 on a $1 bet ....$150 on a 50cent bet.... i am assuming then that the amt. collected is all that matters.That amount is $600,anything lower no sign,at or over sign.

From the NYRA website:
For winnings that exceed 300-1 odds - more than $600 -the IRS requires that a W2-G tax form is completed