MTB owner talking smack?

[W2G]

Patience is wearing thin over at the MTB camp.

Dr. Leonard Blach: "Part of me hopes she doesn't run. She has such a magnificent record, I'd hate to see it get tarnished."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05282009/sports/horseracing/borel_mount_still_up_in_air_171284.htm

[cj's dad]

Patience is wearing thin over at the MTB camp.

Dr. Leonard Blach: "Part of me hopes she doesn't run. She has such a magnificent record, I'd hate to see it get tarnished."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05282009/sports/horseracing/borel_mount_still_up_in_air_171284.htm

Don't you think this is good for the sport ?

[Jinxed]

So, are you saying jerking Borel around over a horse that probably isn't even runing in the Belmont is good for the sport? I personally think what the owners of RA are doing sux.

[ryesteve]

I personally think what the owners of RA are doing sux.What are they "doing", other than trying to make sure they make the right decision? What do you think, this is all just a ploy to jerk around Borel?

[dartman51]

I don't think he's talking smack, I think he is being very realistic. ANYONE who has been around this game for ANY length of time, knows that ANYTHING can happen in a horse race and especially in the BELMONT. A fresh horse can come in and beat them all, I've seen it. A European invader, (Gitano Hernando), could upset the applecart. RA has already proven she can beat the boys, and the Preakness took a lot out of her. If she does run, and God forbid, something BAD happen, (breakdown) her owner would look like the biggest villain, not to mention a black mark on racing. I hope common sense prevails. I remember after Eight Belles broke down after the Derby, everyone wanted to talk about what a terrific and brave horse she was. If she had continued to run against the girls, she MAY NEVER had been tested the way she was against the boys, and MIGHT still be running today. We'll never know. RA had NEVER been tested, till she ran against the boys. Even though she won, the race still took a lot out of her. The ONLY POSSIBLE way this turns into a positive story, is if she WINS the race. If she runs and loses, there will be all the usual BS excuses. She didn't take to the track, she got a bad ride, she just appeared tired, or, she was pushed too hard and didn't have anything left in the stretch. There are a LOT of ways to LOSE a race. All it takes is one misstep to turn the story to tragedy. Horse racing doesn't NEED that kind of story, we've had enough of those lately. I hope she races another year or two, then retires UNDEFEATED. She will be a terrific brood mare.

Just my rambling thoughts.

[Jinxed]

What are they "doing", other than trying to make sure they make the right decision? What do you think, this is all just a ploy to jerk around Borel?

I don't believe Jackson has any intention of running RA in the Belmont, so yes I do believe they are jerking Borel around. Just say the horse isn't going to run, and quit the crap. I don't believe for one minute they are busy making a decision whether or not to run her. Why would they even contemplate it?

[ryesteve]

I don't believe Jackson has any intention of running RA in the Belmont, so yes I do believe they are jerking Borel around.
Thanks for clarifying... not sure what they'd have to gain by dragging out the decision, other than an irrational desire to screw over Borel...

[Stevie Belmont]

If they had no intention they would have made that call already...

[W2G]

Don't you think this is good for the sport ?

If by "this" you mean the rival camps taking subtle swipes at each other, yes I think it is awesome for the sport.

In a perfect world MTB and RA are perfectly sound animals and go on to forge the kind of rivalry we haven't seen since in decades, going out of their way to face each other on the racetrack. The plucky, blue-collar gelding with the eye-catching late kick vs. the free-running, speedy filly princess. Think of the fanatical following that both of them would surely earn.

In the real world of course this is merely fantasy. A carefully planned HOTY campaign for RA will likely mean at most one more battle between these two, and then it's off to the breeding shed for her. The good news though is that the thus far stouthearted MTB will race as long as he's healthy and performing at a high level. A modern day Kelso/John Henry would be great for the sport.

[onefast99]

If they had no intention they would have made that call already...
Agree.

[Relwob Owner]

I don't believe Jackson has any intention of running RA in the Belmont, so yes I do believe they are jerking Borel around. Just say the horse isn't going to run, and quit the crap. I don't believe for one minute they are busy making a decision whether or not to run her. Why would they even contemplate it?


I am as much of a conspiracy guy as anyone but I think you are reading way too much into this. They have no reason to jerk Borel around at all. If anything, jerking him around would be counterproductive because he seems to fit the horse so well and they would be riunning the risk of pissing him off and jeopardizing him riding the horse in the future. They are just taking their time and frankly, with a horse like RA, they can afford to do that.......

[JustRalph]

you gotta admit............it has lots of people clicking on Racing websites every day to find out the latest

[JWBurnie]

I don't believe Jackson has any intention of running RA in the Belmont, so yes I do believe they are jerking Borel around. Just say the horse isn't going to run, and quit the crap. I don't believe for one minute they are busy making a decision whether or not to run her. Why would they even contemplate it?

Jinxed, I agree with you. I think Jackson is enjoying the spotlight being on him and has not intention of running RA. Personally, I'm tired of Jess Jackson. I hope RA doesn't run, and the MTB connections decide not to ride Borel, and win.

Honest question...has Jackson owned a great horse that he didn't purchase (for a ton of money) before it was already proven? I wish the Arabs would start out bidding him on these private purchases...at least they show class in victory and defeat.

[PaceAdvantage]

So, are you saying jerking Borel around over a horse that probably isn't even runing in the Belmont is good for the sport? I personally think what the owners of RA are doing sux.I personally think she is running, and I personally think that Jackson jerking the MTB boys around is FANTASTIC!

You obviously missed what the owners of MTB publicly floated before the Preakness...that being "stuff the gate to keep the filly OUT."

Payback is a bitch.

[Derbyman32]

I personally think she is running, and I personally think that Jackson jerking the MTB boys around is FANTASTIC!

You obviously missed what the owners of MTB publicly floated before the Preakness...that being "stuff the gate to keep the filly OUT."

Payback is a bitch.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[depalma113]

I don't think he's talking smack, I think he is being very realistic. ANYONE who has been around this game for ANY length of time, knows that ANYTHING can happen in a horse race and especially in the BELMONT. A fresh horse can come in and beat them all, I've seen it. A European invader, (Gitano Hernando), could upset the applecart. RA has already proven she can beat the boys, and the Preakness took a lot out of her. If she does run, and God forbid, something BAD happen, (breakdown) her owner would look like the biggest villain, not to mention a black mark on racing. I hope common sense prevails. I remember after Eight Belles broke down after the Derby, everyone wanted to talk about what a terrific and brave horse she was. If she had continued to run against the girls, she MAY NEVER had been tested the way she was against the boys, and MIGHT still be running today. We'll never know. RA had NEVER been tested, till she ran against the boys. Even though she won, the race still took a lot out of her. The ONLY POSSIBLE way this turns into a positive story, is if she WINS the race. If she runs and loses, there will be all the usual BS excuses. She didn't take to the track, she got a bad ride, she just appeared tired, or, she was pushed too hard and didn't have anything left in the stretch. There are a LOT of ways to LOSE a race. All it takes is one misstep to turn the story to tragedy. Horse racing doesn't NEED that kind of story, we've had enough of those lately. I hope she races another year or two, then retires UNDEFEATED. She will be a terrific brood mare.

Just my rambling thoughts.

She has already lost, so undefeated is out of the question.

What I am really tired of is the breakdown crap always being brought up when a filly runs against the colts. How many tragic filly breakdowns have we had lately? Eight Belles and who else? Somebody needs to fill me in because I'm missing the rest of them. Oh I know Ruffian. Wait that was over 30 years ago, but they did just make a movie about her, so maybe that counts.

If the horse loses, so what. Horses lose all of the time. If she wins, she's a legend.

[Jinxed]

I personally think she is running, and I personally think that Jackson jerking the MTB boys around is FANTASTIC!

You obviously missed what the owners of MTB publicly floated before the Preakness...that being "stuff the gate to keep the filly OUT."

Payback is a bitch.

There is going to be no payback now that MTB's camp have said they will patiently wait for a decison on RA before naming a jockey. Who is turning out to be the classier act after all. All the talk of stuffing the field against RA never took place, so where exactly is any payback involved and for what? Rumors? Inuendos? Who knows the true facts for sure of what transpired?

[Jinxed]

Well, I guess I'm not considering all the facts. My sister just called me from NYC and she is convinced RA is going to run...but for one reason only. Jackson only cares about fame and fortune. Money and horses come easy to him. Asmussen will run any horse into the ground. Hell, he even used to give shots to horses who were hurt to numb them (and yes he was suspended..big deal)...yeh, the two of them together probably don't really give a crap about RA, so maybe I'm wrong. Wiggins..he cared about the horse.

Why or why do I still think someone owns and cares about her that wouldn't run just to be a showoff. I think it's a shame they ever sold to Jackson to be honest, but I guess money is money anyway you look at it, and business is business. Jackson only bought her to be a big deal. I guess I'm simply hoping they don't run her. I have a really bad feeling about it if they do.

[Relwob Owner]

There is going to be no payback now that MTB's camp have said they will patiently wait for a decison on RA before naming a jockey. Who is turning out to be the classier act after all. All the talk of stuffing the field against RA never took place, so where exactly is any payback involved and for what? Rumors? Inuendos? Who knows the true facts for sure of what transpired?


Just because they said they are patiently waiting doesnt mean they are really being patient....they are just saying what they know will appear classy but you know they are chafed....as far as the race stuffing goes, they did make that call, Zayat blabbed about it and the MTB camp and Zayat went into damage control and took things back....their initial actions werent classy in the least.....


Everyone seems to like taking cuts at Jackson....well, do some research on MTB's owners and I cant say that everything is a bed of roses there...

[Jinxed]

There is no "bed or roses" in horseracing. The few people with clean hands are few and far apart. The fact that Jackson is one of the richest men in America, not from horseracing, but from all his winerys, tells me he is all about having the best of everything. I think you would be hard pressed to find an owner as rich as this guy, or one that probably cares as little if he races RA or not. She is a novelty to him, and for now a money maker (even though the man certainly doesn't need horseracing to make him rich).

You have no argument from me on either camp, although I'm still impressed with Chip, broken leg and all, driving cross country with MTB, and absolutely no one having a clue just how good he was. One of the best kept secrets in the Derby ever I would say.

[Watcher]

There is going to be no payback now that MTB's camp have said they will patiently wait for a decison on RA before naming a jockey. Who is turning out to be the classier act after all. All the talk of stuffing the field against RA never took place, so where exactly is any payback involved and for what? Rumors? Inuendos? Who knows the true facts for sure of what transpired?
They would have shut her out had the plan not been plastered all over the news, followed by the pouring of public outcry.

[WinterTriangle]

Who is turning out to be the classier act after all.

Neither.

If this is how they play with each other.

It reminds me of my long stint in corporate america, where you walk out of the office every night with nine knives hanging out your back....esp. if you have a good position/promotion.

This intrigue between connections is only the stories that "got out". One can only assume many of them never do.

I imagine this is why horses find sponges in their noses. :eek: Bad sportsmanship and tit-for-tat, revenge and all the rest.

Good sportsmen, who are classy people, don't play it out like this. Period.

[FlyinLate]

The MTB owners are trashball hillbillies and nothing more. They have no class, which in turn actually leads to better media attention because they are entertaining to laugh at.


I'm still amazed at the world of improvement this horse made after losing the Sunland Derby, then running like a monster in the first two legs of the TC. Damn horse has cost me alot of money :lol:

[RHANDIE]

I'm just amazed that any outfit , let alone the Derby winners, would wait around and denigrate their horse by letting the Rachel camp shit all over them, the notion that Borel, of all jockeys, is the magic potion to this horses success is comical , the horse clearly showed he was superior in the Preakness, the connections should just walk into the jocks room at Belmont and the first jockey they touch will have had only one less ride on the horse, and ten times more experience at Belmont than Borel. For Gods sake and all things Evil pick a rider and be done with it. This Calvin Borel walks on water act is becoming nauseating, the guys a good jock, nothing more, nothing less. He won the Derby because the horse was better, the rail gave him a length or two, or he wins by 5, he also was a freaking 50-1 shot so he could be afforded the dam rail, he didn't win because Borel is the next coming of Eddie Arcaro and thusly, the ONLY rider on the planet who can win on him, this is so comically daft it's unbelievable. Get the dam horse a rider that won't ALWAYS have to hem and haw whether he's going to ride your horse in each and every start, sorry Borel just aint that good to put up with this nonsensical bullshit!!!!!!!!!

[Jinxed]

The MTB owners are trashball hillbillies and nothing more. They have no class, which in turn actually leads to better media attention because they are entertaining to laugh at.


I'm still amazed at the world of improvement this horse made after losing the Sunland Derby, then running like a monster in the first two legs of the TC. Damn horse has cost me alot of money :lol:

So because Jackson is a billionaire and his trainer is crooked that makes them perfect, huh? The term "trashball hillbillies" is very offensive to me. I'm glad MTB cost you lots of money:) It couldn't happen to a nicer person. :lol:

[FlyinLate]

So because Jackson is a billionaire and his trainer is crooked that makes them perfect, huh? The term "trashball hillbillies" is very offensive to me. I'm glad MTB cost you lots of money:) It couldn't happen to a nicer person. :lol:

I never stated Jackson was perfect, you just made assumptions regarding my post. I never compared MTB's connections to anybody, just gave my 2 cents on the way they present themselves on TV. Wolley is nowhere near as bad as the owner. I'm sure MTB cost alot people money, not only me. I have no problems with boasting your own horse, but do it in a classier way, not mumbling nonsense. I was actually one of the few IEAH connection supporters.

[Cat Thief]

I sure agree with all you say

[Jinxed]

I never stated Jackson was perfect, you just made assumptions regarding my post. I never compared MTB's connections to anybody, just gave my 2 cents on the way they present themselves on TV. Wolley is nowhere near as bad as the owner. I'm sure MTB cost alot people money, not only me. I have no problems with boasting your own horse, but do it in a classier way, not mumbling nonsense. I was actually one of the few IEAH connection supporters.

There was no need for you to call any group of people "trashball hillbillies". You didn't have to say a word about Jackson. Everyone knows he is a billionaire. There is no excuse for the words you used to describe the owner or trainer of MTB. The way you perceive people just could be wrong. The fact is you overstepped your boundaries.

As for the other poster..Calvin sure doesn't walk on water, and if he got off the horse from the Derby to ride RA I wouldn't give him the ride now to be honest. He is certainly not the best jockey around. There are a lot of excellent ones. Tap Talamo to ride the horse or one of the other great ones.

[PaceAdvantage]

The way you perceive people just could be wrong.Coming from you, that's simply hilarious. Perhaps you were wrong in the way you perceived Beyer that one short time you say you met him....

[Jinxed]

Coming from you, that's simply hilarious. Perhaps you were wrong in the way you perceived Beyer that one short time you say you met him....

Could have been I perceived Beyer wrong, but I strongly doubt it. You said yourself I had the right to my opinion, didn't you?

I have never called anyone "hillbilly trash" for sure. I said I thought Beyer was arrogant, and I stand by my opinion. What is the big deal about having met this guy anyway? He was outside of Belmont on a stage in 95 talking to people...so I didn't like him, big deal. Did I call him trash or a hillbilly? Glad you find things so hillarious PA. It shows class...NOT.

I've also known Gary Stevens all my life. He was born here in Cadwell, Idaho and starting riding at Les Bois. He is also best friends with Jeff Mullins who started out here. I think it's fair to have an opinion about people you know, and who the heck would want to be proud of knowing Mullins? I didn't like Andy Beyers. Get over it.

You have made several silly remarks in the last couple weeks like how much the gallop out means in horseracing. You kidding me or what? You also have insisted RA is running..yawn...you over that one yet. Oh yeh, I forgot, you get to change your mine in a moment's notice.

[FlyinLate]

There was no need for you to call any group of people "trashball hillbillies". You didn't have to say a word about Jackson. Everyone knows he is a billionaire. There is no excuse for the words you used to describe the owner or trainer of MTB. The way you perceive people just could be wrong. The fact is you overstepped your boundaries.

As for the other poster..Calvin sure doesn't walk on water, and if he got off the horse from the Derby to ride RA I wouldn't give him the ride now to be honest. He is certainly not the best jockey around. There are a lot of excellent ones. Tap Talamo to ride the horse or one of the other great ones.

Are you by any chance married to Draynay?
And I stand firm with my comment on the connections of MTB. If you're offended by it, you may need to take a look at making some changes in ur own life :lol:

[Jinxed]

I don't even know this Draynay. I've been missing from the site for a couple years because my husband was killed in an automobile accident. Is there anything else you would like to know, or insult? Could this Draynay possibly have been any worse then you are? Maybe you are him reincarnated, because you certainly come across as offensive, and I can't imagine anyone being any worse. I think calling anyone "hillbilly trash" puts you in the category of being ignorant to be honest. I actually feel sorry for you.

[JWBurnie]

Are you by any chance married to Draynay?
And I stand firm with my comment on the connections of MTB. If you're offended by it, you may need to take a look at making some changes in ur own life :lol:

FlyinLate, I think you're the one that needs to make some changes in your life and find some class. Do you think you're better than others, or in this case the connections of MTB?

[PaceAdvantage]

Could have been I perceived Beyer wrong, but I strongly doubt it. You said yourself I had the right to my opinion, didn't you?

I have never called anyone "hillbilly trash" for sure. I said I thought Beyer was arrogant, and I stand by my opinion. What is the big deal about having met this guy anyway? He was outside of Belmont on a stage in 95 talking to people...so I didn't like him, big deal. Did I call him trash or a hillbilly? Glad you find things so hillarious PA. It shows class...NOT.

I've also known Gary Stevens all my life. He was born here in Cadwell, Idaho and starting riding at Les Bois. He is also best friends with Jeff Mullins who started out here. I think it's fair to have an opinion about people you know, and who the heck would want to be proud of knowing Mullins? I didn't like Andy Beyers. Get over it.

You have made several silly remarks in the last couple weeks like how much the gallop out means in horseracing. You kidding me or what? You also have insisted RA is running..yawn...you over that one yet. Oh yeh, I forgot, you get to change your mine in a moment's notice.Another who looks to be self-destructing....I will admit though, you take the prize for drawing it out all these years....:lol:

[Imriledup]

I'm just amazed that any outfit , let alone the Derby winners, would wait around and denigrate their horse by letting the Rachel camp shit all over them, the notion that Borel, of all jockeys, is the magic potion to this horses success is comical , the horse clearly showed he was superior in the Preakness, the connections should just walk into the jocks room at Belmont and the first jockey they touch will have had only one less ride on the horse, and ten times more experience at Belmont than Borel. For Gods sake and all things Evil pick a rider and be done with it. This Calvin Borel walks on water act is becoming nauseating, the guys a good jock, nothing more, nothing less. He won the Derby because the horse was better, the rail gave him a length or two, or he wins by 5, he also was a freaking 50-1 shot so he could be afforded the dam rail, he didn't win because Borel is the next coming of Eddie Arcaro and thusly, the ONLY rider on the planet who can win on him, this is so comically daft it's unbelievable. Get the dam horse a rider that won't ALWAYS have to hem and haw whether he's going to ride your horse in each and every start, sorry Borel just aint that good to put up with this nonsensical bullshit!!!!!!!!!

Superior in the Preakness? Huh?

As far as the MTB connections go, they did the right thing to wait for Calvin, CHB understands exactly how these guys want their horse ridden and they are confident that he'll ride to explicit instructions. Calvin is by far the best rider that will actually listen. To just pick any top jock is haphazard because top riders don't have to listen to instructions, especially from a guy with a one horse stable.

[jotb]

Borel says MTB will win the Belmont (really not crazy when a jock says he's going to win) . He worked MTB this morning a 1/2 mile in 50 but trainer would have wanted 49.2. For a jock that has not won at the distance on the Belmont Strip in at least the last 10 years, I think Borel may be going a tad overboard here. Most of his wins at the distance have been on the turf. I could be wrong but Borel has won only once at the distance on the dirt and it was not at Belmont in the last 10 years. To tell you the truth, I have more confidence in the horse than the jock. So, we have a horse that will not train over the surface and a jock that's not that successful at the distance on a dirt track. On top of it, I would think MTB will be an underlay. It might be time to search for another horse. JMHO..I hope I'm wrong.

Joe

[RHANDIE]

Superior in the Preakness? Huh?

As far as the MTB connections go, they did the right thing to wait for Calvin, CHB understands exactly how these guys want their horse ridden and they are confident that he'll ride to explicit instructions. Calvin is by far the best rider that will actually listen. To just pick any top jock is haphazard because top riders don't have to listen to instructions, especially from a guy with a one horse stable.

I'm not understanding whats so difficult to understand the horse's off the pace style, Smith didn't have a bit of trouble, now all of a sudden Borel is the only rider who understands this or can follow directions? The guy has ridden the horse ONE GOD DAM TIME!!!! There is not a jockey in the jocks room at Belmont who couldn't/wouldn't have won the Derby on Mine That Bird, I can't wait till the Belmont is over, than Borels 15 minutes will be up, this notion that he is all of a sudden a super-jock because 2 extremely nice horses carried his bald ass into the winners circle, is getting to be nauseating. If he truly is the next coming of Eddie Arcaro, than I'm assuming he'll have mounts in all the Breeders Cups races right?

[FlyinLate]

Smith didn't have a bit of trouble

That statement right there is just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your argument, I agree for the most part. I really don't see MTB winning the Derby (granted I said this before the other 2 tc races). His running style should make things difficult. Unfortunately, the two that have caught my attention are also closers.

[FenceBored]

There is not a jockey in the jocks room at Belmont who couldn't/wouldn't have won the Derby on Mine That Bird.

Really? Any of them? Every jockey at Belmont has Borel's experience with the Churchill strip and how to game it? :lol:

Raymundo Fuentes?

Of course, that's the downside of using Calvin in the Belmont. I don't think he does as well at Keeneland, and he rides there every year. I'm not sure how familar he is with Belmont and may very well make a mistake a rider more experienced with the track wouldn't. Maybe they should have called Maylan. :)

[JWBurnie]

"Borel would have ridden Kentucky Oaks and Preakness Stakes winner Rachel Alexandra if the filly had entered the Belmont Stakes. But Barbara Banke, wife of co-owner Jess Jackson, says they're looking out for her future. Borel said he is committed to ride the horse for the next year."

http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/9635122/Mine-That-Bird-jockey:-'We're-gonna-win'-Belmont


Since when was Banke so concerned/involved with RA's future? You've owned this horse less than a month.

Oh, and her future wasn't a concern prior to the Preakness? Or, two weeks after? For all those who said RA was going to run in the Belmont...I look forward to your comments. Please speak up...don't be shy.

[Cadillakin]

As for the other poster..Calvin sure doesn't walk on water, and if he got off the horse from the Derby to ride RA I wouldn't give him the ride now to be honest. He is certainly not the best jockey around. There are a lot of excellent ones. Tap Talamo to ride the horse or one of the other great ones.
Joe Talamo is a good rider for his age, but a great one? On the SoCal circuit, he ranks probably 6th or 7th in talent, after Bejarano, Gomez, Rosario, Mike Smith, Victor Espinoza and Tyler Baze. When the big money's down and the top trainers are looking for the best, Joe is not yet one of the go-to riders.

Joel Rosario, if he stays healthy, may soon be in the league with Bejarano and Gomez.. I see nothing wrong with calling him great.. he rides masterfully...but in the present, like Joe, he has relatively few accomplishments..

Maybe we just differ quite a bit on what it means to be great.. For myself, I think a much longer test of time is needed before Joe Talamo can be considered at that level.

[RHANDIE]

Really? Any of them? Every jockey at Belmont has Borel's experience with the Churchill strip and how to game it? :lol:

Raymundo Fuentes?

Of course, that's the downside of using Calvin in the Belmont. I don't think he does as well at Keeneland, and he rides there every year. I'm not sure how familar he is with Belmont and may very well make a mistake a rider more experienced with the track wouldn't. Maybe they should have called Maylan. :)


Yeah, ANY jockey in the Derby field would have won on the bird, see when your horse wins by 7, than it sure as shit ain't the jockey, so lets say ANY of the other jocks ride the horse, they swing out and win by a mere 5, Borel ain't giving ANY horse 7 lengths for Christs sakes!!!!!

[toussaud]

if talemo were 39 and not 19 he would not be the hit he is. He's a very talanted jockey, no question about it.. but Mike and Tyler Baze, joel are just as young (almost) and just as good, and Joel might be better on a day to day basis. Just hasn't picked up the big horse yet.

They are all behind Gomez, Bejerano and Espinosa. those three are still a class by themselves.

and let's not forget Mike smith and Aaron Gryder, neither are my favs but netiher are c hopped liver either.

[PaceAdvantage]

For all those who said RA was going to run in the Belmont...I look forward to your comments. Please speak up...don't be shy.What would you like us to say? If she's healthy and fit, she should run. That's my opinion.

If she's not near 100% and healthy, then she should take a break.

There, I said it. Now what Burnie?

[Imriledup]

Yeah, ANY jockey in the Derby field would have won on the bird, see when your horse wins by 7, than it sure as shit ain't the jockey, so lets say ANY of the other jocks ride the horse, they swing out and win by a mere 5, Borel ain't giving ANY horse 7 lengths for Christs sakes!!!!!
:bang:

[Jinxed]

YOU are the one that brought up Andy Beyer again, not me. You did it just to try and rile me up, but actually I find it funny to be honest. You seem obsessed with the fact I didn't like the guy. If you don't want to hear about it, how about you stop bringing it up and taking little digs at me. How would that work for you? :lol:

[Bruddah]

Superior in the Preakness? Huh?

As far as the MTB connections go, they did the right thing to wait for Calvin, CHB understands exactly how these guys want their horse ridden and they are confident that he'll ride to explicit instructions. Calvin is by far the best rider that will actually listen. To just pick any top jock is haphazard because top riders don't have to listen to instructions, especially from a guy with a one horse stable.

You get a Big Amen Bruddah! Here is what some of these naysayers haven't comprehended as yet. It's their horse and they can favor any jock with the ride on MTB. They came to the Derby with a 50-1 longshot from New Mexico. They get a last minute break with a Quality Churchill Downs jockey (Calvin Borel) and win the Derby. They finish a strong closing second in the next leg of the TC, and lose to Calvin B. and the favorite. If I owned the horse, I damn sure would want Calvin back up for this leg of the TC.

It just comes down to this, it's their damn horse and they can do what ever the F*CK they want to. They don't have to listen to, or please, the "Peanut Gallery". If you don't like their chouce of jocks, go get your own F*CKING horse and win the Ky Derby. Then we can all sit back and make stupid remarks about you and your choice of jocks. :lol:

[FenceBored]

Yeah, ANY jockey in the Derby field would have won on the bird, see when your horse wins by 7, than it sure as shit ain't the jockey, so lets say ANY of the other jocks ride the horse, they swing out and win by a mere 5, Borel ain't giving ANY horse 7 lengths for Christs sakes!!!!!

You orginally said, "There is not a jockey in the jocks room at Belmont who couldn't/wouldn't have won the Derby on Mine That Bird." Now you're changing it to "any jockey in the Derby field." Doesn't help your argument as much as you think, but it's kind of interesting that you tried to slip that past.

Who but Borel would have chosen to ride Mine That Bird in that off-pace style in the Derby? Nobody. Look at his running lines before the Derby. He never hit the board when he was more than 2 1/2 lengths back at the first call. In fact the two times he was more than 4 lengths back he was beaten by more than 9 lengths. So, which of the other riders is going to make that big a change in his approach in the biggest race of the horse's life (to date), and a race that's important to the jockey as well? A change that from the horse's history looks counterproductive.

In an article in the CJ the day after the Derby, Woolley claims he decided to change MTB's style to off pace after the Breeders Cup. I don't find the claim credible. First of all, MTB had won 4 straight close to the pace, and got shellacked in the Breeders Cup when he was just a bit further back. Secondly, the two races at Sunland show no evidence of any such change. At the first call, he's on the lead in the Borderland Derby, and 2 3/4 off the lead in the Sunland Derby. Woolley may, or may not, have talked about making a change, but it looks like Calvin is the one who did something about it.

Would Mine That Bird have won the Derby being ridden more forwardly, out in the center of the track? The middle of that sloppy track was tiring and the energy consumption of being near the lead is greater. I don't believe he would have had the same umph, certainly not enough to get free. So, by giving Mine That Bird the exact same ride he gave Street Sense (1st) and Denis of Cork (3rd) Calvin gave him his best chance of winning.

So you wait on Calvin. Try to line up a good backup, but you wait, because you owe him.

As for Calvin in the Belmont, I've changed my mind. He rode Denis of Cork to a second place finish last year. He may or may not win, but I feel less worried about him badly mistiming his move on the far turn.

[joanied]

You orginally said, "There is not a jockey in the jocks room at Belmont who couldn't/wouldn't have won the Derby on Mine That Bird." Now you're changing it to "any jockey in the Derby field." Doesn't help your argument as much as you think, but it's kind of interesting that you tried to slip that past.

Who but Borel would have chosen to ride Mine That Bird in that off-pace style in the Derby? Nobody. Look at his running lines before the Derby. He never hit the board when he was more than 2 1/2 lengths back at the first call. In fact the two times he was more than 4 lengths back he was beaten by more than 9 lengths. So, which of the other riders is going to make that big a change in his approach in the biggest race of the horse's life (to date), and a race that's important to the jockey as well? A change that from the horse's history looks counterproductive.

In an article in the CJ the day after the Derby, Woolley claims he decided to change MTB's style to off pace after the Breeders Cup. I don't find the claim credible. First of all, MTB had won 4 straight close to the pace, and got shellacked in the Breeders Cup when he was just a bit further back. Secondly, the two races at Sunland show no evidence of any such change. At the first call, he's on the lead in the Borderland Derby, and 2 3/4 off the lead in the Sunland Derby. Woolley may, or may not, have talked about making a change, but it looks like Calvin is the one who did something about it.

Would Mine That Bird have won the Derby being ridden more forwardly, out in the center of the track? The middle of that sloppy track was tiring and the energy consumption of being near the lead is greater. I don't believe he would have had the same umph, certainly not enough to get free. So, by giving Mine That Bird the exact same ride he gave Street Sense (1st) and Denis of Cork (3rd) Calvin gave him his best chance of winning.

So you wait on Calvin. Try to line up a good backup, but you wait, because you owe him.

As for Calvin in the Belmont, I've changed my mind. He rode Denis of Cork to a second place finish last year. He may or may not win, but I feel less worried about him badly mistiming his move on the far turn.

I agree with this and also Bruddah's post...I'd want Calvin back for the Belmont too...

you guys :ThmbUp: said it all...thanks


I was thinking (:eek: ).... is it at all possible, now that Calvin is riding MTB in the Belmont, would Jackson 'change' his mind and decide, at the last minute, to run RA and get one of their guys to ride her? Jackson's way of getting Calvin off her...just a random thought that ran through my mind.

[FenceBored]

I was thinking (:eek: ).... is it at all possible, now that Calvin is riding MTB in the Belmont, would Jackson 'change' his mind and decide, at the last minute, to run RA and get one of their guys to ride her? Jackson's way of getting Calvin off her...just a random thought that ran through my mind.

:blush: I've sworn off conspiracy theories for the week (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=692804&postcount=4). Curse you Reality, that was a good one. But seriously, I don't think so. Trying to get other people to jump before he announced his decision is one thing, going back on a gesture like calling Woolley personally is another.

[RHANDIE]

You orginally said, "There is not a jockey in the jocks room at Belmont who couldn't/wouldn't have won the Derby on Mine That Bird." Now you're changing it to "any jockey in the Derby field." Doesn't help your argument as much as you think, but it's kind of interesting that you tried to slip that past.

Who but Borel would have chosen to ride Mine That Bird in that off-pace style in the Derby? Nobody. Look at his running lines before the Derby. He never hit the board when he was more than 2 1/2 lengths back at the first call. In fact the two times he was more than 4 lengths back he was beaten by more than 9 lengths. So, which of the other riders is going to make that big a change in his approach in the biggest race of the horse's life (to date), and a race that's important to the jockey as well? A change that from the horse's history looks counterproductive.

In an article in the CJ the day after the Derby, Woolley claims he decided to change MTB's style to off pace after the Breeders Cup. I don't find the claim credible. First of all, MTB had won 4 straight close to the pace, and got shellacked in the Breeders Cup when he was just a bit further back. Secondly, the two races at Sunland show no evidence of any such change. At the first call, he's on the lead in the Borderland Derby, and 2 3/4 off the lead in the Sunland Derby. Woolley may, or may not, have talked about making a change, but it looks like Calvin is the one who did something about it.

Would Mine That Bird have won the Derby being ridden more forwardly, out in the center of the track? The middle of that sloppy track was tiring and the energy consumption of being near the lead is greater. I don't believe he would have had the same umph, certainly not enough to get free. So, by giving Mine That Bird the exact same ride he gave Street Sense (1st) and Denis of Cork (3rd) Calvin gave him his best chance of winning.

So you wait on Calvin. Try to line up a good backup, but you wait, because you owe him.

As for Calvin in the Belmont, I've changed my mind. He rode Denis of Cork to a second place finish last year. He may or may not win, but I feel less worried about him badly mistiming his move on the far turn.


You originally said who would ride the horse off the pace, and Borel follows directions, your right, Wooley TOLD HIM TO TAKE THE DAM HORSE BACK, you think Borel invented the running style? I'll say it again, ANY jock in the Derby and ANY jock in the Belmont jocks room could have ridden the horse, the INSTRUCTIONS were to take back, any retard could undertsand that, obviously, Borel did!!!!!!

[miesque]

You originally said who would ride the horse off the pace, and Borel follows directions, your right, Wooley TOLD HIM TO TAKE THE DAM HORSE BACK, you think Borel invented the running style? I'll say it again, ANY jock in the Derby and ANY jock in the Belmont jocks room could have ridden the horse, the INSTRUCTIONS were to take back, any retard could undertsand that, obviously, Borel did!!!!!!

I disagree because it was not just simply the act of taking the horse back which put Mine That Bird in the position to win the Kentucky Derby. A key component in Mine That Bird's victory was the rail skimming ride that he had and to cavalierly state that ANY jockey in the jocks room would have done the same is in direct contrast to what I see day in and day out in races. There are a lot of jockeys (in fact I would say the vast majority) who when coming from behind are predisposed to taking the outside route instead of trying to hustle through a very narrow spot on the rail. Borel is not the only one, but that is his niche and he excels at it. If a paint scraping rail ride was a second nature, common trait for all jockeys, then Calvin would not have the nickname "BoRail."

[FenceBored]

You originally said who would ride the horse off the pace, and Borel follows directions, your right, Wooley TOLD HIM TO TAKE THE DAM HORSE BACK, you think Borel invented the running style? I'll say it again, ANY jock in the Derby and ANY jock in the Belmont jocks room could have ridden the horse, the INSTRUCTIONS were to take back, any retard could undertsand that, obviously, Borel did!!!!!!

Of course Calvin didn't invent the running style, Eddie Delahoussaye did, with Gato Del Sol in 1982, the first Derby winner for a Hancock. :cool:

Seriously, I never said anything of the sort. Reread the thread. That was Imriledup. I'd be curious to see any evidence from before the Derby that Woolley told Calvin to take him back. I looked around a little this morning and haven't run across any pre-Derby mention of riding instructions for Mine That Bird.

What we do have is the evidence of the charts. Here are the positions at points of call from the last three Derby's for Calvin's horse:

Year--1/4---1/2--- 3/4-- mile- Str-- Fin
2009-- 19--- 19--- 19--- 12--- 1--- 1
2008-- 20--- 20--- 20--- 13--- 6--- 3
2007-- 18--- 19--- 11---- 3--- 1--- 1


Anything jump out at you? I guess Calvin really needed Woolley to suggest that a last to ITM finish approach was a good idea.

Give Borel some credit. Two Derby wins and a third in three years is pretty good for a jockey. Better than anybody in the jock room at Belmont.

[JWBurnie]

What would you like us to say? If she's healthy and fit, she should run. That's my opinion.

If she's not near 100% and healthy, then she should take a break.

There, I said it. Now what Burnie?

PA, wouldn't you say she was healthy and fit based on the fact they worked RA twice since the Preakness?

6/1/2009CD Dirt Fast 5f1 :01.60b 11/16

5/25/2009CD Dirt Sloppy 4f 50.20b 10/38



Besides, how would they know how RA comes out of her races?

Her connections didn't seem too concerned with her future by working her 9 days after the Preakness, and on an off track to boot. That's a break? Oh, and then work back 7 days later going 5f. She seems healthy and fit to me.... Based on what your saying, she should be entered in the Belmont.
Why have the decided not to run?

[RHANDIE]

I disagree because it was not just simply the act of taking the horse back which put Mine That Bird in the position to win the Kentucky Derby. A key component in Mine That Bird's victory was the rail skimming ride that he had and to cavalierly state that ANY jockey in the jocks room would have done the same is in direct contrast to what I see day in and day out in races. There are a lot of jockeys (in fact I would say the vast majority) who when coming from behind are predisposed to taking the outside route instead of trying to hustle through a very narrow spot on the rail. Borel is not the only one, but that is his niche and he excels at it. If a paint scraping rail ride was a second nature, common trait for all jockeys, then Calvin would not have the nickname "BoRail."


Like I said, if ANY of the other jocks had ridden him and gone around the field they win by 5, again do you SERIOUSLY think Borel made this horse 7 lengths better? That is insane. The other jockeys in the race also were not on 50-1- shots , it's a hell of a lot easier to make it up the rail when no one gives a crap where you are, trust me, he ain't running up the rail at Belmont.

[miesque]

Like I said, if ANY of the other jocks had ridden him and gone around the field they win by 5, again do you SERIOUSLY think Borel made this horse 7 lengths better? That is insane. The other jockeys in the race also were not on 50-1- shots , it's a hell of a lot easier to make it up the rail when no one gives a crap where you are, trust me, he ain't running up the rail at Belmont.

If you don't think there was a significant strategic element to Calvin Borel's ride in the Derby which put Mine That Bird in the best position to win the Derby when all was said and done then we are just going to have to agree to disagree because otherwise its a pointless argument that I don't even remotely care enough about to have and you obviously care a great deal about. I am not going to get into a hypothetical argument about if Borel had done X then MTB would have won by Y lengths because that is totally based on conjecture and opinion.

[RHANDIE]

If you don't think there was a significant strategic element to Calvin Borel's ride in the Derby which put Mine That Bird in the best position to win the Derby when all was said and done then we are just going to have to agree to disagree because otherwise its a pointless argument that I don't even remotely care enough about to have and you obviously care a great deal about. I am not going to get into a hypothetical argument about if Borel had done X then MTB would have won by Y lengths because that is totally based on conjecture and opinion.


Your right, lets just end the argument, you obviously feel Borel, the nations best jockey, is the ONLY rider in the world who can win on this horse, forget the slobs who did before. He is the only jockey who can understand trainers directions to take back, and if he had been on him in The Preakness they would have again won by 7 lengths, as somehow in the course of May to now, Calvin Borel has become the standard to which other jockeys are measured, he is the best jockey in the land, forget that, the WORLD!!!!!

[miesque]

Your right, lets just end the argument, you obviously feel Borel, the nations best jockey, is the ONLY rider in the world who can win on this horse, forget the slobs who did before. He is the only jockey who can understand trainers directions to take back, and if he had been on him in The Preakness they would have again won by 7 lengths, as somehow in the course of May to now, Calvin Borel has become the standard to which other jockeys are measured, he is the best jockey in the land, forget that, the WORLD!!!!!

That is not even remotely what I stated, I was discussing one race in time, the Kentucky Derby, but if it makes you feel any better, you win. I truly hope you wager big and wager often, the pari-mutuel pools need you.

[FlyinLate]

Your right, lets just end the argument, you obviously feel Borel, the nations best jockey, is the ONLY rider in the world who can win on this horse, forget the slobs who did before. He is the only jockey who can understand trainers directions to take back, and if he had been on him in The Preakness they would have again won by 7 lengths, as somehow in the course of May to now, Calvin Borel has become the standard to which other jockeys are measured, he is the best jockey in the land, forget that, the WORLD!!!!!

wtf? You took everything he said and spun it in your own way.

[miesque]

wtf? You took everything he said and spun it in your own way.

Thank you, you put it better then I did. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Why have the decided not to run?Good question...who should we ask next?

[PaceAdvantage]

YOU are the one that brought up Andy Beyer again, not me. You did it just to try and rile me up, but actually I find it funny to be honest. You seem obsessed with the fact I didn't like the guy. If you don't want to hear about it, how about you stop bringing it up and taking little digs at me. How would that work for you? :lol:Just thought it was quite interesting that someone (you) who posts the following:

The way you perceive people just could be wrong....would hold that kind of perception of Beyer after only one very brief (alleged) meeting.

[FlyinLate]

Just thought it was quite interesting that someone (you) who posts the following:

...would hold that kind of perception of Beyer after only one very brief (alleged) meeting.

LOL @ the (alleged) part :lol:

[FenceBored]

As for Calvin in the Belmont, I've changed my mind. He rode Denis of Cork to a second place finish last year. He may or may not win, but I feel less worried about him badly mistiming his move on the far turn.

Oops, my bad. Calvin rode Denis of Cork in the Derby, but they used Robbie in the Belmont. I feel my worry meter rising again. :bang:

Looking over the entries for wed - fri doesn't help. Damn it, Calvin, getting some trips over the track before Satuday might have been a good idea.

[Jinxed]

Just thought it was quite interesting that someone (you) who posts the following:

...would hold that kind of perception of Beyer after only one very brief (alleged) meeting.

Yeh, the alleged meeting with that big jerk, who is truly a nobody in my world, would have absolutely been the highlight of my life. That almost makes me laugh. Now, meeting Obama might be a big deal, but Beyer is a little fish in a big pond. Who the hell would "brag" about meeting him really? It sounds like you really like the arrogant little guy, but it's your problem, not mine that I don't. Yeh, he is definitely the "king of horseracing" and quite the phenomen isn't he? I don't think I could possibly handicap without his stupid figures. YOU are a true gentlman and a scholar Mr. Big Cheese :lol:

Maybe you need to get over yourself. As the administrator of this forum you seem very full of yourself, and you feel the need to always be right. It seems people absolutely shy away from you, and no one wants to tell PA that he is full of it. What about "I would never see Borel on RA again"? Stupid remark from you right? You don't own up to any of the crap you say. It's always "I have the right to change my mind at any moment". Aren't you special? If you think I'll back down from you, think again.

I think if there is a liar in the house, it is you PA. How about that one?

[JWBurnie]

Good question...who should we ask next?

I think Jess Jackson owes the public an explanation, don't you?



We would all be talking about a potential Triple Crown winner if it were not for him, his ego and big money. I applauded JJ w/ how he handled Curlin early on but then became very tired and annoyed by his antics. Didn't this situation remind you of Curlin, and him running in the Arc? IMO, then like now, it is all about media attention for him and not what is best for the horse(s), or the game. Agree?



He is beginning to remind me of another JJ...Jerry Jones. Ugh. (We need another smiley icon - one throwing up.)

[Jinxed]

Jackson is all about him. He doesn't care what it takes to bring attention to himself. He didn't run RA for any reason except to ruin the chances of a TC. RA could never take the Belmont distance, and he knows it. He has the money and can play the games. He isn't going to answer anything to anyone. He is above everyone else.

[rastajenk]

He didn't run RA for any reason except to ruin the chances of a TC. Which owners are expected to lie down for the sake of a Triple Crown, and which get to run to prevent virtual walkovers; and who decides?

[ghostyapper]

He didn't run RA for any reason except to ruin the chances of a TC.

How about for the 600k in earnings? Or how else is he supposed to recover some of the 10 mill he spent on her? I agree though, he knows RA will get beat in the belmont, probably by 3-4 horses

[Bettowin]

Karma is a bitch. Birdstone runis Smarty's chance and now a son (gelded at that) of Birdstone might have the TC taken away by a girl:)

[Jinxed]

How about for the 600k in earnings? Or how else is he supposed to recover some of the 10 mill he spent on her? I agree though, he knows RA will get beat in the belmont, probably by 3-4 horses

That amount to Jess Jackson is merely peanuts. The man is a bilionaire with his winerys. He did'nt run her for money at all.

[Jinxed]

Damn girl, I just love you. You wouldn't consider marrying an old fat man with a bad heart and A FEW BUCKS IN THE BANK, would ya? :kiss: :lol: :D

Sure, why not? If you aren't arrogant and full of yourself I sure would consider it. :lol: If you love the ponies you can win my heart, and no I don't let men boss me around at all. I can hold my own with any of them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeh, the alleged meeting with that big jerk, who is truly a nobody in my world, would have absolutely been the highlight of my life. That almost makes me laugh. Now, meeting Obama might be a big deal, but Beyer is a little fish in a big pond. Who the hell would "brag" about meeting him really? It sounds like you really like the arrogant little guy, but it's your problem, not mine that I don't. Yeh, he is definitely the "king of horseracing" and quite the phenomen isn't he? I don't think I could possibly handicap without his stupid figures. YOU are a true gentlman and a scholar Mr. Big Cheese :lol:

Maybe you need to get over yourself. As the administrator of this forum you seem very full of yourself, and you feel the need to always be right. It seems people absolutely shy away from you, and no one wants to tell PA that he is full of it. What about "I would never see Borel on RA again"? Stupid remark from you right? You don't own up to any of the crap you say. It's always "I have the right to change my mind at any moment". Aren't you special? If you think I'll back down from you, think again.

I think if there is a liar in the house, it is you PA. How about that one?It has begun...

[Bettowin]

It has begun...


I predict a long drawn out, knock down drag out internet fight with name calling, finger pointing and then BAM...........................

Wedding bells at the 2010 Breeder's Cup:)

[ghostyapper]

That amount to Jess Jackson is merely peanuts. The man is a bilionaire with his winerys. He did'nt run her for money at all.

I don't care if he is a trillionaire. The guy just spent 10 million on a horse, you can't get him for running her in a million dollar race. You're making it out like Jackson is this attention starved person that couldn't bare to think of the attention a tc winner would get, so he spent 10 million just to prevent another group from getting all the attention. That's ridiculous.

Jackson is one of the good guys in today's game. He's one of the few owners that has shown a genuine interest in the well being of the sport.

I know it seems like a hit and run with rachel not running in the belmont but I think it's because her connections know if they ran her she would have very little shot.

[WinterTriangle]

It's very simple, Jinxed.

Jackson ran put Rachel into the Preakness to win the race.

I dunno why that's such an elusive concept. :)


However, he would only have had 2 reasons, IMHO, to put her in the Belmont.

#1: to win it. I haven't come up with a 2nd one yet. :)

He doesn't need the purse money. Rachel doesn't need to win the Belmont to keep her status, notoriety, etc. She is well-regarded, more than any other 3 year old right now.

So, IMHO, either he didn't think she would win, or he didn't feel he had to run her again against the boys again, and esp. not so quickly. There is no other explanation I can personally come up with.

Maybe somebody else can come up with a reason other than what i just said.

OTOH, maybe there is NO REASON. :) He owns the horse, he can do as he wishes.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know it seems like a hit and run with rachel not running in the belmont but I think it's because her connections know if they ran her she would have very little shot.You contend that if she is known to be PHYSICALLY FIT, she should still not have been entered in the Belmont because she would have very little shot. That's your belief?

I think you would agree the did not assemble some super-scary field for Saturday's feature. But you still contend she couldn't win except for some off-chance miracle?

That's wild....

[WinterTriangle]

I think we need a "singles" area down in the general topics. :lol:


Hey Pace, you admin here for 20 years or something? Ever had any of your posters marry each other?

I admined a board for 9 years, and 2 couples met on my forum and married.

Just curious.

[Bettowin]

PA and Jinxed on 2010 BC.

[PaceAdvantage]

No nuptials that I am aware of between board members...

Let's get back on topic.

[ghostyapper]

You contend that if she is known to be PHYSICALLY FIT, she should still not have been entered in the Belmont because she would have very little shot. That's your belief?


Jackson said after the preakness that if the horse recovered well, they would go in the belmont. On the day he announced she wouldn't run, he said she recovered well and was training well but still would not run her.

We can go back and forth all you want about whether she can get 12 furlongs or if she is better than MTB but the proof really is in the pudding. After the preakness you and all the other rachel supporters spoke very confident about her winning the belmont and that she was much the best. Her owner decides to duck the race and you want to just sweep it under the rug and think its meaningless? Not happening

[Bruddah]

I'm truly disappointed PA thought my marriage proposals weren't fit for the internet and deleted them. I have received over 130 offers of marriage. To think they were up only a short time and got that much response. I guess it goes to show there is a shortage of old fat men with bad hearts and money in the bank. :lol: :D

[FlyinLate]

Jackson said after the preakness that if the horse recovered well, they would go in the belmont. On the day he announced she wouldn't run, he said she recovered well and was training well but still would not run her.

We can go back and forth all you want about whether she can get 12 furlongs or if she is better than MTB but the proof really is in the pudding. After the preakness you and all the other rachel supporters spoke very confident about her winning the belmont and that she was much the best. Her owner decides to duck the race and you want to just sweep it under the rug and think its meaningless? Not happening

Duck the race? You have to remember, this filly ran 1 day before the derby as well. Mine That Bird is the ONLY horse that will contend in all 3 legs of the TC. Did Musket Man duck the race after running third?

The biggest bullshit argument about RA is how if the race was longer she would have been passed as MTB was coming. First of all, if the race was longer do you think she would have posted splits as quick as the preakness? Or do you think in the Belmont she'd have to fight w/ a horse off 6 straight wins for the lead?

What is the point of running her 3 times in 5 weeks with nothing else to prove? MTB is a gelding, no future in him for breeding, running the horse is all they have. There is no point to risk tarnishing Rachel's well being with nothing more to prove. Let her rest, beat up on the girls again, and hopefully at the end of the year go heads-up with Zenyatta or face the boys again.

[FenceBored]

Duck the race? You have to remember, this filly ran 1 day before the derby as well. Mine That Bird is the ONLY horse that will contend in all 3 legs of the TC. Did Musket Man duck the race after running third?


You're right that Mine That Bird will be the only horse to contend in all three TC races, but Flying Private will have started in all three. :D

[ghostyapper]

There is no point to risk tarnishing Rachel's well being with nothing more to prove. Let her rest, beat up on the girls again, and hopefully at the end of the year go heads-up with Zenyatta or face the boys again.

So by saying it will "tarnish her record" I guess you're agreeing with me that she wouldn't win the race. And has nothing left to prove? Why because she beat MTB once by a length? It's amazing how low the standards have become when saying a horse "has nothing left to prove"

We can argue forever about whether MTB can beat rachel at 10 furlongs and up. Saturday would be a good day to decide but only 1 horse will show up while the other has been given every excuse in the book for her duck. O well :ThmbDown:

[FenceBored]

So by saying it will "tarnish her record" I guess you're agreeing with me that she wouldn't win the race. And has nothing left to prove? Why because she beat MTB once by a length? It's amazing how low the standards have become when saying a horse "has nothing left to prove"

We can argue forever about whether MTB can beat rachel at 10 furlongs and up. Saturday would be a good day to decide but only 1 horse will show up while the other has been given every excuse in the book for her duck. O well :ThmbDown:

C'mon, be creative. :) Something like: "She's DUCKing the Acorn, she's DUCKing the Belmont, will she even run in the Mother GOOSE."

As a longtime RA bandwagon tenant I'm sorry she's not running in the Belmont, but I don't disagree with not running her. After the Preakness I had real concerns about her ability to get the 1.5m at Belmont AT THIS TIME. I think she can be prepared for it and could win at the distance. But Asmussen hasn't had her long enough to do it (arguments about his slow work times inserted here), and Wiggins wasn't prepping her for the distance. I wouldn't run her just to run her though, and while I'd have backed her, I think she'd likely have lost on Saturday.

[ghostyapper]

C'mon, be creative. :) Something like: "She's DUCKing the Acorn, she's DUCKing the Belmont, will she even run in the Mother GOOSE."

As a longtime RA bandwagon tenant I'm sorry she's not running in the Belmont, but I don't disagree with not running her. After the Preakness I had real concerns about her ability to get the 1.5m at Belmont AT THIS TIME. I think she can be prepared for it and could win at the distance. But Asmussen hasn't had her long enough to do it (arguments about his slow work times inserted here), and Wiggins wasn't prepping her for the distance. I wouldn't run her just to run her though, and while I'd have backed her, I think she'd likely have lost on Saturday.

Fair enough. My comment of ducking was for those that felt her winning the belmont was a certainty and that no other horse was even on the same level as her.

[FlyinLate]

So by saying it will "tarnish her record" I guess you're agreeing with me that she wouldn't win the race. And has nothing left to prove? Why because she beat MTB once by a length? It's amazing how low the standards have become when saying a horse "has nothing left to prove"

We can argue forever about whether MTB can beat rachel at 10 furlongs and up. Saturday would be a good day to decide but only 1 horse will show up while the other has been given every excuse in the book for her duck. O well :ThmbDown:

There is no point to RISK tarnishing Rachel's well being with nothing more to prove.

You're rephrasing my statement. Am I saying RA is a shoe in to win if she ran? No. Do I think she beats MTB if they ran? Of course.

I doubt MTB will even win the Belmont. My money will be with Charitable Man.

[PaceAdvantage]

We can go back and forth all you want about whether she can get 12 furlongs or if she is better than MTB but the proof really is in the pudding.Ain't that the truth. The official score reads Rachel 1, MTB 0

After the preakness you and all the other rachel supporters spoke very confident about her winning the belmont and that she was much the best. Her owner decides to duck the race and you want to just sweep it under the rug and think its meaningless? Not happeningWhat exactly are we sweeping under the rug? And who exactly is she ducking? The horse she beat two weeks ago? How do you duck someone you've already defeated in battle?

[PaceAdvantage]

Fair enough. My comment of ducking was for those that felt her winning the belmont was a certainty and that no other horse was even on the same level as her.First off, the only thing I was certain of was that RA would beat MTB in the Belmont. What I wasn't certain of is if someone else might come along and beat them both. So winning the Belmont was never a certainty for me...but beating MTB is, in my opinion.

[ghostyapper]

Ain't that the truth. The official score reads Rachel 1, MTB 0

What exactly are we sweeping under the rug? And who exactly is she ducking? The horse she beat two weeks ago? How do you duck someone you've already defeated in battle?

Hmm so she beat him by a length and that's the end of the story? It's really that simple? It seems that if beating him is as easy as you make it seem her connections would be running her saturday.

With Rachel "doing well" it seems her connections not running her screams that she's not "much the best" as you believe. Unless of course it's Charitable Man or Dunkirk they are afraid of. Either way, its a serious blow to all those pumping their chests after the preakness about how she was an all time great and by far the best 3yo.

[PaceAdvantage]

If you read what you just wrote, I think you will agree, this is getting us nowhere.

Nothing is more reliable than head-to-head results. Not my citing the "gallop out" nor you citing "added distance would have reversed the result."

The only concrete evidence we have is that Rachel beat MTB. Anything else is pure speculation and opinion. You have yours, and I think I have respected your opinion even though I disagree with it....

[ghostyapper]

If you read what you just wrote, I think you will agree, this is getting us nowhere.

Nothing is more reliable than head-to-head results. Not my citing the "gallop out" nor you citing "added distance would have reversed the result."

The only concrete evidence we have is that Rachel beat MTB. Anything else is pure speculation and opinion. You have yours, and I think I have respected your opinion even though I disagree with it....

Ok fair enough. I'd say we'll let the horses decide it saturday but....

Now if I can only get you to admit that she ducked ;)

[onefast99]

There is one thing for sure about the MTB connections, the good ole Dr hasn't missed a meal. He was on Squawkbox yesterday and his belly is twice the size it was in the winners circle at the Kentucky Derby. I do like MTB and the track will be good which is another plus for him. Good luck MTB and Calvin Bo"rail".

[DanG]

Now if I can only get you to admit that she ducked ;)
Your right; Rachel did when she curtsied in the Preakness winners circle.
http://www.equineclickertraining.com/training/Willy_bow_6-21-02_sm.jpg

BTW: How many legs of the crown did your “incredibly carefully managed” namesake run in again? ;)

[FlyinLate]

Good luck MTB and Calvin Bo"rail".

If there is one thing I can guarentee its that they will not open up that rail for him this time around ;)

[Bettowin]

If there is one thing I can guarentee its that they will not open up that rail for him this time around ;)

How can you guarantee the rail won't be open? I'll bet he won't be more than 2 paths wide coming around the turn.

[FlyinLate]

How can you guarantee the rail won't be open? I'll bet he won't be more than 2 paths wide coming around the turn.

It's a 10 horse field. Half of the horses won't be more than two wide. I'm simply stating that the jocks will be on the watch for his patented move. He's not a disregarded 50-1 shot this time around.

[cj's dad]

It's a 10 horse field. Half of the horses won't be more than two wide. I'm simply stating that the jocks will be on the watch for his patented move. He's not a disregarded 50-1 shot this time around.

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that the jocks on tiring horses coming down the stretch (and most will be tiring) are going to risk harm to themselves and their mounts by blocking CB's path.

[WinterTriangle]

Facts: MTB won Derby fair and square.
Rachel won Preakness fair and square.
Let's see who win the Belmont and also keep track of our favorite horses and what they will do the rest of the year.

In the meantime, thinking maybe somebody needs to provide a happy "ending" for this topic, here's Rachel as a babe:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2w5mt77.jpg

[joanied]

WinterT....
Thanks for the great Rachel photo...I had seen another one of her that showed at that very young age, she always had super conformation & balance.

Did you happen to watch the video clip (I think via BloodHorse.com) of Curlin's full brother...born about 3 weeks ago...they showed him running around the pasture and there was no sign of his Dam...just someone that was out there with a Paint horse on a lead....like this Paint was maybe a bbaby sitter or something...I wondered...where is this little guys mama??

:)

[FlyinLate]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that the jocks on tiring horses coming down the stretch (and most will be tiring) are going to risk harm to themselves and their mounts by blocking CB's path.

Yes because Borel's rail riding move is going to happen during the stretch :D Borel will be coming from dead last, there are going to be horses in front of him waiting to make their move, they won't give him the rail on the backstretch/turn when his move starts (before most horses are tiring). He's not gonna be able to wait until the stretch to make his move. Horse will be fully into gear long before the stretch run starts.

[joanied]

I think WinterTriangle's short but sweet summation said it all...

"Facts: MTB won Derby fair and square.
Rachel won Preakness fair and square.
Let's see who win the Belmont and also keep track of our favorite horses and what they will do the rest of the year."

As for that rail position for MTB tomorrow...no doubt the other jocks will try and keep it shut off...but, IMO, not to the detriment of their own mounts...or, to ride in an unsafe manner.
I think Calvin's timing with his run is the crucial thing here...will he be able to use his 'head clock' and time that move perfectly for MTB.

No sense arguing over what could have been in the Preakness...and I have heard enough expert opinions to last a lifetime...and all the opinions I've heard from the industry people, all say the same thing...MTB was not going to pass Rachel on that day...gallop out or no gallop out...and that is also my opinion.

I'll be waiting with my breath held for Rachel's next start...and hope we don't have to wait too long. I also will wait to see if Jackson & the Moss's are as 'sporting' as they claim to be and find a way to get Rachel & Zenyatta in the same race before Breeders Cup....if these two can go head and head a few times over the course of the season, race fans will be in Heaven...won't matter which one wins...maybe Rachel could take Zenyatta a time or two, and Zenyatta take Rachel a time or two...what ever happened to the best horses in training actually racing against each other several times during a race year...instead of ducking each other...we need a great rivalry...and these distaffer's could give it to us....wishful thinkin'.

[FenceBored]

WinterT....
Thanks for the great Rachel photo...I had seen another one of her that showed at that very young age, she always had super conformation & balance.

Did you happen to watch the video clip (I think via BloodHorse.com) of Curlin's full brother...born about 3 weeks ago...they showed him running around the pasture and there was no sign of his Dam...just someone that was out there with a Paint horse on a lead....like this Paint was maybe a bbaby sitter or something...I wondered...where is this little guys mama??

:)

Didn't you see the follow-up post on the MarketWatch blog at Bloodhorse?
"[Sherriff’s Deputy] is simply not capable of raising a foal on her own," said Shannon White with Fares Farm, which bred two-time Horse of the Year Curlin (http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=7147650&origin=singlesearch). "She has a limited range of motion because of an arthritic knee, so it is tough for her to keep up with a foal. Her milk production is also limited." White said the knee does not bother Sherriff’s Deputy during pregnancy.


So, the foal is being raised by Suzie, a registered Walking Horse and professional nurse mare. Suzie did have a foal, who is now being fed on milk replacer and who will grow up to become someone’s show horse or pet, according to White.

-- http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/market-watch/archive/2009/05/11/curlin-s-full-brother-and-his-nurse-mare-her-name-is-suzie.aspx

The blogger should have included this information in the first post. Too many "XXX died of foaling complications" stories this time of year to leave that obvious question unanswered.

[joanied]

Fencebored....thanks so much for your post:ThmbUp: I never saw any related story about Curlin's little brother....but also figured his birth mama, Sherriff's Deputy, must be OK because there wasn't any mention of 'foaling complications'...and yes, we've had more than the fair share of deaths due to foaling complications this season, which breaks:( my heart and sometimes pisses me off.
Needless to say, I didn't know about SD's arthritus or lack opf milk production...again, thank you for the info...I feel way more better nopw, knowing the little dude is being loved :kiss: on by his nurse mare...and obvioulsy, he gets the very best of everything!!
WHEW:faint:

[PaceAdvantage]

Now if I can only get you to admit that she ducked ;)It can't be ducking when she just BEAT him! How can she duck someone she has already defeated?

[cj's dad]

Yes because Borel's rail riding move is going to happen during the stretch :D Borel will be coming from dead last, there are going to be horses in front of him waiting to make their move, they won't give him the rail on the backstretch/turn when his move starts (before most horses are tiring). He's not gonna be able to wait until the stretch to make his move. Horse will be fully into gear long before the stretch run starts.

So, your opinion is that the jocks on the horses that have little or no chance of hitting the board are going to be concerned with CB and MTB hitting the board are going to block the rail to prevent that from happening.

Are you losing your mind ????

[FlyinLate]

So, your opinion is that the jocks on the horses that have little or no chance of hitting the board are going to be concerned with CB and MTB hitting the board are going to block the rail to prevent that from happening.

Are you losing your mind ????

Did you bother even reading my last post? At the time of CB's rally, the race will be at a point where atleast 90% of the jockeys will feel like their horse has a chance to contend. He's not going to have an open rail from the back of the pack this time around. You make it seem like MTB starts running in the stretch, I think you need to take a look at the other TC races again. He starts motoring halfway through the backstretch. Think when horses like SB and MHS are planning on starting their rallies from right in front of MTB they're going to let him get INSIDE of them? Doubtful.

[FlyinLate]

So, your opinion is that the jocks on the horses that have little or no chance of hitting the board are going to be concerned with CB and MTB hitting the board are going to block the rail to prevent that from happening.

Are you losing your mind ????

Great rail ride there huh? For some odd reason it was closed off when Calvin started his rally halfway down the backstretch. hmmmmm :ThmbUp:

[cj's dad]

Great rail ride there huh? For some odd reason it was closed off when Calvin started his rally halfway down the backstretch. hmmmmm :ThmbUp:


Yeah, I watched the replay and could clearly see all the jocks ahead of CB/MTB turn around in unison @ about 38 mph TO SEE WHERE HE WAS and wholeheartedly agree to move to the rail to block CB's path. :lol:

Those in front dictate pace and POSITION.

The rail being open or closed had absolutely 0 effect on MTB not winning the race. He was in clear position at the top of the lane, ahead by a head and simply lacked the late sustained run needed to WIN !

Summer Bird was widest of all coming home !

Tape available at youtube.com - maybe another look will help you understand.

[ghostyapper]

Yeah, I watched the replay and could clearly see all the jocks ahead of CB/MTB turn around in unison @ about 38 mph TO SEE WHERE HE WAS and wholeheartedly agree to move to the rail to block CB's path. :lol:

Those in front dictate pace and POSITION.

The rail being open or closed had absolutely 0 effect on MTB not winning the race. He was in clear position at the top of the lane, ahead by a head and simply lacked the late sustained run needed to WIN !

Summer Bird was widest of all coming home !

Tape available at youtube.com - maybe another look will help you understand.

No maybe a rail trip does not get MTB home first (though judging how live that rail was you never know) but your premise of other jockey's never trying to get the favorite in trouble or prevent a smooth trip is pretty ridiculous.

[FlyinLate]

No maybe a rail trip does not get MTB home first (though judging how live that rail was you never know) but your premise of other jockey's never trying to get the favorite in trouble or prevent a smooth trip is pretty ridiculous.

Thank you, he doesn't seem to grasp this. He thinks everyone just rides their horse and does not pay attention to the location of the horses likely to beat them.

[cj's dad]

To both of you rocket scientists, what are you thinking ??

Watch the replay and then make some more excuses why MTB did not win.

strange that he was beaten by not one but 2 fresh horses; both with very good jocks and both familiar with the track, unlike CB.

But you guys are probably right. The others in the race were more than willing to risk injury to block the rail and screw CB :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[WinterTriangle]

To both of you rocket scientists, what are you thinking ??

Watch the replay and then make some more excuses why MTB did not win.

strange that he was beaten by not one but 2 fresh horses; both with very good jocks and both familiar with the track, unlike CB.

But you guys are probably right. The others in the race were more than willing to risk injury to block the rail and screw CB :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I still don't think you can underestimate the acceleration MTB accomplished, as the announcer described it, he "catapulted past a whole pack of horses". Summer Bird was in a good position most of the race, on the rail and in mid-pack, that was a good ride and good positioning, kudos to the jock and the horse. MTB had to do that catapulting far off the rail, from way behind, and had to go wide to do it.

I hope I get to see MTB and Summer Bird in another race sometime. Both fresh. I can't judge between any two horses in one race. I was not a big SB fan, I admit, I wasn't ga-ga over him at Oaklawn. But then, I wasn't ga-ga over that other one, Win Willy, either. People always remember a great closing run by a horse.

MTB was ITM in every TC race, and at this point, there is no other horse that can claim that this year. :jump:

[FlyinLate]

To both of you rocket scientists, what are you thinking ??

Watch the replay and then make some more excuses why MTB did not win.

strange that he was beaten by not one but 2 fresh horses; both with very good jocks and both familiar with the track, unlike CB.

But you guys are probably right. The others in the race were more than willing to risk injury to block the rail and screw CB :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Whose making excuses? I didn't bet MTB in ANY of the TC races. He saw the bottom of my tri's in the preakness/belmont and that is all.

Your claim is not necessarily geared only toward this race. You argue that riders do not factor in particular running styles of the other jockeys/horses in the race, which IMO and Im sure several others, is flat out wrong (especially in the case of very big races such as the Belmont).

[cj's dad]

Lets put this to rest shall we? Of course jockeys factor in to positioning at various points in the race. My point is that from talking to several over the years, they will, if ANYTHING, get out of the way if riding a horse which is tiring in the stretch and they sense little to zero chance of hitting the board. Do they race ride early on while there is a competitive chance to win? Yes, I think so.
But, how many 1 1/2 mile races are decided in the backstretch when all are still fresh? Very few I presume.

Do you honestly think that they would risk life/career threatening injury to prevent another rider from getting through?

One of the problems apparently is that tiring horses do not respond well to moving in or out and willingly creating space, which of and by itself causes bad situations to occur.

[FlyinLate]

Lets put this to rest shall we? Of course jockeys factor in to positioning at various points in the race. My point is that from talking to several over the years, they will, if ANYTHING, get out of the way if riding a horse which is tiring in the stretch and they sense little to zero chance of hitting the board. Do they race ride early on while there is a competitive chance to win? Yes, I think so.
But, how many 1 1/2 mile races are decided in the backstretch when all are still fresh? Very few I presume.

Do you honestly think that they would risk life/career threatening injury to prevent another rider from getting through?

One of the problems apparently is that tiring horses do not respond well to moving in or out and willingly creating space, which of and by itself causes bad situations to occur.

Agree to disagree. Both our arguments have good/bad points. We'll leave it at that. Best of luck to you :ThmbUp: