From Seth At Equidaily: 15 Ideas

[Cangamble]

http://www.equidaily.com/bestbet/opinion/2009/90527.htm

[Imriledup]

Those ideas make sense, why would the racing industry adopt any of them?

Now, if they DIDN'T make sense, the industry would be ALL OVER THEM.

Also, Seth's ideas mostly help the horseplayer and save HIM money. Racing interests don't look at ideas that help the player, they look at ideas that help themselves *(while not realizing that a more satisfied player might mean a better bottom line)

[46zilzal]

Comment for your fellow there: All photo finishes are shown and they are not grainy since they are just about all digital

[Cangamble]

16. Put down actual running times for horses who run 2nd down to last. It takes a horse more time to run a length the farther it goes.

17. Cut off betting at 1 minute to post time:)

[Imriledup]

16. Put down actual running times for horses who run 2nd down to last. It takes a horse more time to run a length the farther it goes.

17. Cut off betting at 1 minute to post time:)

JUST SAY NO to CG's 17!

[fmolf]

Comment for your fellow there: All photo finishes are shown and they are not grainy since they are just about all digital
i think most are nitpicking ....mostly all pp info is available on line now....go to track website for changes or brisnet for changes....best idea is the slo mo finish line cam....all the others seem unnecessary

[Imriledup]

18) weigh jockeys on a digital scale where the public can actually see what they weigh. Lets stop the madness of these guys riding 5 and 10 lbs overweight and them looking the other way.

19) weigh the horses on a frieght scale on their way to the paddock. Just install a freight scale and have the horse stop and stand on the scale (while he's getting his tattoo checked) lets put that weight in the program. Then, after the weights are gotten, lets announce them or put them on the board.

[Cangamble]

JUST SAY NO to CG's 17!
C'mon, it isn't like I'm looking for equal rights for gay horses. Not that I'd be against that:
Bicsqqg5qaE

[Indulto]

http://www.equidaily.com/bestbet/opinion/2009/90527.htmThanks for sharing this. I really like some of those ideas -- the first time as gelding indicator in particular.

The free PPs issue is not cut and dried. Some data has added value, particulary proprietary values such as speed/pace figuers, comments, and selections. I agree there should be free equibase summary PPs (At HOL there are ones with graphs, (power?) ratings, and selections that aren't bad.) I'll always pay extra for DRF PPs, but they really should sell it per-track, off-line as well, at a lower price per track.

For the life of me I can't understand why the DRF gives free on-line access to Beyer's Columns, but not Crist's; especially when the latter writes about industry and/or player issues rather than specific horses, race analyses, or selections. If they don't warrant the widest possible distribution...nothing does.

[Imriledup]

C'mon, it isn't like I'm looking for equal rights for gay horses. Not that I'd be against that:
Bicsqqg5qaE

:lol:

[Cadillakin]

Indulto!

I bet on you in 1972 in the Meteor Handicap. Unfortunately for both me and you, the fastest horse I ever saw was in the gate with you...

And that was Crimson Saint, the dam of Terlingua, and 2nd dam of the immortal Storm Cat. But you were old in 72.. Maybe in your younger days you could have given her a run..

[CBedo]

16. Put down actual running times for horses who run 2nd down to last. It takes a horse more time to run a length the farther it goes.) :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

17. Upgraded tote system with real time (not batch) information--this would replace Cangambles 17.

18. Information on Multiple Race and Multiple Horse Wager Payoffs before the fact. How hard would it be to have the payoff info either at a terminal at the tracks or through our ADWs?

For example, for trifectas "Enter horse for first:" Then it would put up an exacta type matrix for the second and third horses, or even simpler, "Enter 1st Horse. Enter 2nd Horse" and have it put up the payoffs with all horses for third.

Why should we have to guess what our payouts for Pick 3s and Pick 4s will be when all the data is there obviously?

[Indulto]

Indulto!

I bet on you in 1972 in the Meteor Handicap. Unfortunately for both me and you, the fastest horse I ever saw was in the gate with you...

And that was Crimson Saint, the dam of Terlingua, and 2nd dam of the immortal Storm Cat. But you were old in 72.. Maybe in your younger days you could have given her a run..Cad,
I assume you're aware that my stubborn namesake left the game on his own terms by refusing to leave the gate while entered "last time as gelding." ;)

Maybe Crimson Saint convinced him he was through or else he was too embarassed when the starter yelled "They're off!" :D

[Cadillakin]

Cad,
I assume you're aware that my stubborn namesake left the game on his own terms by refusing to leave the gate while entered "last time as gelding." ;)

Maybe Crimson Saint convinced him he was through or else he was too embarassed when the starter yelled "They're off!" :D
I'm laughin

[saratoga guy]

Comment for your fellow there: All photo finishes are shown and they are not grainy since they are just about all digital

Zil, gimme a little credit -- I realize all photos are "shown", on the video feed for ten seconds after the race replay.

I'm saying they should be posted and archived on a track's website -- for everyone who missed that one, brief showing [or for people who saw it but want another look].

And, as the owner of a television production company, I'm familiar with digital technology and "grain" -- still, I think both of the Indiana Derby photos were "grainy".

Photo that started the debate: http://www.equidaily.com/images/2006/indyphto.jpg

Close-up of actual win photo: http://www.equidaily.com/images/2006/indphtob.jpg

[But either way, one is clearer than the other and if it had been posted on the website right after the race the whole brouhaha wouldn't have happened.]

[saratoga guy]

i think most are nitpicking ....mostly all pp info is available on line now....go to track website for changes or brisnet for changes....best idea is the slo mo finish line cam....all the others seem unnecessary

I don't know if any of the suggestions are "necessary." In fact, a lot of the niceties of racing that we've come to expect aren't really necessary -- but they make the game more enjoyable in some fashion.

So, while the suggestions might not be necessary -- I don't think they're "nitpicking" either.

For example, the suggestion for a symbol noting that a horse ran MTO in an off-the-turf race isn't necessary -- that's proven by the fact that racing goes on without it. BUT, I gave an example of a handicapper making a mistaken decision based on the absence of such a symbol. In other words, having the symbol would make for better, more accurate handicapping.

mostly all pp info is available on line now....go to track website for changes or brisnet for changes

I'm not sure how these facts mitigate the need for any of the suggestions...

[46zilzal]

i think most are nitpicking ....mostly all pp info is available on line now....go to track website for changes or brisnet for changes....best idea is the slo mo finish line cam....all the others seem unnecessary
MOST tracks do that too

[saratoga guy]

Put down actual running times for horses who run 2nd down to last. It takes a horse more time to run a length the farther it goes.

weigh jockeys on a digital scale where the public can actually see what they weigh.

Information on Multiple Race and Multiple Horse Wager Payoffs before the fact

All good ones... I'll have to consider those -- and some others listed here and elsewhere -- for the next list...

[saratoga guy]

MOST tracks do that too

No, they don't.

Most tracks show a slo-mo of the race replay [the same camera that takes the pan shot of the race] -- or perhaps have a close-up of the winner crossing the line on slo-mo.

The dedicated, finish-line slo-mo camera is something only a handful of tracks have. It's pointed at the finish line and only the finish line and it shows a high-quality slo-mo replay of the complete order of finish.

[Greyfox]

I saw a track recently that also has reverse angle replay for the finish.
Watching that in slo mo made it easy to see who won without waiting for the photo.
Unfortunately, I didn't note what track it was. But I liked the idea.

[46zilzal]

No, they don't.

Most tracks show a slo-mo of the race replay [the same camera that takes the pan shot of the race] -- or perhaps have a close-up of the winner crossing the line on slo-mo.

The dedicated, finish-line slo-mo camera is something only a handful of tracks have. It's pointed at the finish line and only the finish line and it shows a high-quality slo-mo replay of the complete order of finish.
Well may provider seems to show that handful everyday of the week: Woodbine, Belmont, etc. We just added it to our harness track coverage this year.

[46zilzal]

I saw a track recently that also has reverse angle replay for the finish.
Watching that in slo mo made it easy to see who won without waiting for the photo.
Unfortunately, I didn't note what track it was. But I liked the idea.

I believe Arlington shows that as they have some of the best coverage, gate to wire, of any track out there.

IT costs a lot of money to have hand helds all over the place every race.

[saratoga guy]

Well may provider seems to show that handful everyday of the week: Woodbine, Belmont, etc. We just added it to our harness track coverage this year.

I'm reasonably certain Belmont doesn't -- unless it's a fairly recent addition. Likewise, if Woodbine does, it's something new this season because I know they didn't last year.

Upshot: The vast majority of tracks don't offer the dedicated, finish-line, slo-mo replay camera.

But I hope they all add it.

[proximity]

16. Put down actual running times for horses who run 2nd down to last. It takes a horse more time to run a length the farther it goes.


that would only be true if they changed the speed at which the photo finish camera was operating during the middle of the race..... beaten "lengths" at the finish are in reality units of time translated to back to lengths.

[Relwob Owner]

http://www.equidaily.com/bestbet/opinion/2009/90527.htm



great list....here is an idea----I may get hammered for this but want to throw it out there....

16. Eliminate the conversations between the jocks and the stewards after a claim of foul. I think it is a complete waste of time. I dont believe that there is any other sport that allows the participants to state their case in terms of officiating before the decision is made and I have never understood why Horse Racing is different. The video should tell the story.

[CBedo]

great list....here is an idea----I may get hammered for this but want to throw it out there....

16. Eliminate the conversations between the jocks and the stewards after a claim of foul. I think it is a complete waste of time. I dont believe that there is any other sport that allows the participants to state their case in terms of officiating before the decision is made and I have never understood why Horse Racing is different. The video should tell the story.
I can see both sides of this, but I know when someone lodges a complaint in a poker tournament (or cash game), I like being able to have both parties (and witnesses) explain their actions.

[Cangamble]

that would only be true if they changed the speed at which the photo finish camera was operating during the middle of the race..... beaten "lengths" at the finish are in reality units of time translated to back to lengths.
Here we go again.:) I'll try this refined example:
Tiring sloppy track. 4 horse takes the lead. 3 horse steams by in the stretch.
At the finish, 3 has beaten the tiring 4 at the wire by 9 visible lengths. 4 isn't done tiring, and is passed by the 5 horse who was behind the 4 when the winner crossed the line by another 3 lengths, and the 5 was running pretty much the same rate the winner ran for the last part of the race.
The running time is 1:14:0
What did the winner win by in the charts? Did the second horse show second by 9 or second by 12?

[Imriledup]

great list....here is an idea----I may get hammered for this but want to throw it out there....

16. Eliminate the conversations between the jocks and the stewards after a claim of foul. I think it is a complete waste of time. I dont believe that there is any other sport that allows the participants to state their case in terms of officiating before the decision is made and I have never understood why Horse Racing is different. The video should tell the story.

Totally agree with this one. If you can't make a DQ off of video leave the result alone and pay off the rightful winners. I don't want to have to worry that Chris McCarron or Jerry Bailey can speak like a politician and some latin rider can't speak at all.

[Imriledup]

Here we go again.:) I'll try this refined example:
Tiring sloppy track. 4 horse takes the lead. 3 horse steams by in the stretch.
At the finish, 3 has beaten the tiring 4 at the wire by 9 visible lengths. 4 isn't done tiring, and is passed by the 5 horse who was behind the 4 when the winner crossed the line by another 3 lengths, and the 5 was running pretty much the same rate the winner ran for the last part of the race.
The running time is 1:14:0
What did the winner win by in the charts? Did the second horse show second by 9 or second by 12?

Awesome post. This might have happened in the Oaks this year too. The 2nd place finisher was staggering. She lost by 20, but it took her longer to get to the wire than it did for Rachel to get there in the last 20 lengths of the race. Did she lose by 20, or more?

[Cangamble]

Awesome post. This might have happened in the Oaks this year too. The 2nd place finisher was staggering. She lost by 20, but it took her longer to get to the wire than it did for Rachel to get there in the last 20 lengths of the race. Did she lose by 20, or more?
I left something out. It was a tiring track as stated before, all horses were staggering, some more than others, and even though the eventual second horse was beaten 12 lengths at the wire, that horse didn't cross the wire until a full 3 seconds went by.
So did the winner win by 15, 9, or 12?

[Imriledup]

I left something out. It was a tiring track as stated before, all horses were staggering, some more than others, and even though the eventual second horse was beaten 12 lengths at the wire, that horse didn't cross the wire until a full 3 seconds went by.
So did the winner win by 15, 9, or 12?

If you think 5 lengths equals 1 second. I think they said its more like 6 lengths equals one second.

At any rate, i agree with your ideas, this is something that chart makers don't consider.

[Cangamble]

If you think 5 lengths equals 1 second. I think they said its more like 6 lengths equals one second.

At any rate, i agree with your ideas, this is something that chart makers don't consider.
This is another problem. It is hard to get agreement on how much exactly is one length (8 ft. to 8 ft 11 inches).
And it depends on the distance whether it takes 5 seconds to do one length or 6 seconds. The farther a horse goes the longer it takes to go a length.

This is why, as a speed handicapper, I want final times within 1/5th of a second for each runner. I can live with length estimations in the charts for fractional times, but at the finish, I want a real time to work with. I highly doubt we are getting one using one length equals one fifth of a second.

[proximity]

Here we go again.:) I'll try this refined example:
Tiring sloppy track. 4 horse takes the lead. 3 horse steams by in the stretch.
At the finish, 3 has beaten the tiring 4 at the wire by 9 visible lengths. 4 isn't done tiring, and is passed by the 5 horse who was behind the 4 when the winner crossed the line by another 3 lengths, and the 5 was running pretty much the same rate the winner ran for the last part of the race.
The running time is 1:14:0
What did the winner win by in the charts? Did the second horse show second by 9 or second by 12?

final beaten lengths in the charts are not determined by visible beaten lengths. they are translated into beaten "lengths". if the 4 is moving slower relative to the 3 and 5 at the end of the race then there will be a relatively bigger space between the photos of the 2nd and 3rd place finishers than there was between the first and second place finishers because it will take more time for the film to pass across the photo finish lens.......irregardless of how much actual distance is between horse A and horse B when horse A hits the wire.

ie if the next horse coming is moving slower, then more film will advance across the lens and ultimately on the charts this will show up as a greater number of beaten lengths, reflecting that it did infact take more time for the slower moving horse to get to the wire. yes?

[BillW]

final beaten lengths in the charts are not determined by visible beaten lengths. they are translated into beaten "lengths". if the 4 is moving slower relative to the 3 and 5 at the end of the race then there will be a relatively bigger space between the photos of the 2nd and 3rd place finishers than there was between the first and second place finishers because it will take more time for the film to pass across the photo finish lens.......irregardless of how much actual distance is between horse A and horse B when horse A hits the wire.

ie if the next horse coming is moving slower, then more film will advance across the lens and ultimately on the charts this will show up as a greater number of beaten lengths, reflecting that it did infact take more time for the slower moving horse to get to the wire. yes?

Agree - the photo finish is a picture of TIME not distance. (a picture of the 4th dimension, if you will)

[proximity]

I left something out. It was a tiring track as stated before, all horses were staggering, some more than others, and even though the eventual second horse was beaten 12 lengths at the wire, that horse didn't cross the wire until a full 3 seconds went by.
So did the winner win by 15, 9, or 12?


race A could go in 1:09 with the winner 50 feet ahead of the horse who finishes second when the winner hits the wire.

race B goes in 1:13 with the winner 50 feet ahead of the horse who finishes second when the winner hits the wire. assume relatively that the runnerup isn't gaining or losing more ground vs the winner than in scenario A.

the beaten lenghts gap in the charts will be greater (not the same) for race B because the gap in the photos between the race B winner and runnerup will be greater since it took more time for the runnerup to get to the wire in the second race than it did in the 1:09 race and more film passed through the lens..... more time, more film, bigger gap, more beaten lengths....

[Cangamble]

race A could go in 1:09 with the winner 50 feet ahead of the horse who finishes second when the winner hits the wire.

race B goes in 1:13 with the winner 50 feet ahead of the horse who finishes second when the winner hits the wire. assume relatively that the runnerup isn't gaining or losing more ground vs the winner than in scenario A.

the beaten lenghts gap in the charts will be greater (not the same) for race B because the gap in the photos between the race B winner and runnerup will be greater since it took more time for the runnerup to get to the wire in the second race than it did in the 1:09 race and more film passed through the lens..... more time, more film, bigger gap, more beaten lengths....
In my example, what did the horse win by, 9, 12, or 15 lengths?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Many of his points I have no use for; I thought basic PP's is what the DRF sold decades ago?; Seems like the electronic changes would not be that inexpensive, the article just proved doubt in his mind about the racing being honest.
Not allowed to bring your own playing cards= I appreciate being able to bring in my own PP's and pre-marking them- I wish I could do that with cards!

[proximity]

In my example, what did the horse win by, 9, 12, or 15 lengths?

that would depend on both the speed of the film AND the amount of film (distance) that the photo finish operators at the particular track deem "one length" to be. to answer your question, probably between 15 and 18 lengths at most tracks....

[saratoga guy]

...the article just proved doubt in his mind about the racing being honest.

Wow -- where did that come from?!?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Wow -- where did that come from?!?
rom #2) "Transparency in the stewards' booth would provide fans with a level of "quality assurance" -- perhaps motivating both the players and the officials to pick up their game a bit with the knowledge that the public is looking over their shoulder." He uses the same reasoning-"As with steward's report" for better camera work, so the winner is not in doubt. If you like I will add "IMHO" he is paranoid of officials cheating, and I also note many longer shots get taken down in favor of favorites. He did not state in the article how he figures his ideas about closer scutiny of stewards' decisions and reports, and better finish line camera work will "motivate the players ...to pick up their game a bit with the knowledge that the public is looking over their shoulder."??

[saratoga guy]

First off I should clarify -- I guess I've been boucning around these forums long enough that I just assume people know me. Wrong assumption.

I am "he". I wrote the piece. So I can say that you've read things into it that weren't intended at all.

If you like I will add "IMHO" he is paranoid of officials cheating

Actually I would put myself squarely in the camp of those that think the sport is fairly clean, which -- at least on many internet forums -- seems to put me in the minority.

Transparency in the stewards' booth doesn't assume cheating. It simply allows the public to have confidence that there is consistency and competence.

He uses the same reasoning-"As with steward's report" for better camera work, so the winner is not in doubt...

You've taken the "As with the idea of the stewards report..." quote out of context here. The sentence continues to say that, as suggested earlier with regard to the daily stewards report, racetrack websites should be used to post photo-finishes. The sentence isn't linking the two ideas intellectually -- it's just saying that websites are appropriate places to publish these two types of things.

And the reason to post photo-finishes isn't to verify the winner after the fact. The Indiana Derby situation was simply used because it was an egregious example of how posting photo-finish photos on a track's website could have proven useful. And, in fact, rather than expose bad officiating -- posting that photo would have verified that the officials made the correct call.

But the reason to post photo-finish photos is actually much more mundane. Simply: People want to see them.

That brief shot of the photo on a track's video feed is easily missed. But if a bettor is involved in a close finish he (or she) would like to see the photo. Not to mention, many jurisdictions require the photo to be displayed.

(New York rule 4105.8.m. They shall examine the photo of the finish before rendering decision on the placing thereof and to cause copies of such photos to be posted and displayed to the public.)

The internet now provides the perfect place to "display" the photo -- making it conveniently available to virutally everyone.

He did not state in the article how he figures his ideas about closer scutiny of stewards' decisions and reports, and better finish line camera work will "motivate the players ...to pick up their game a bit with the knowledge that the public is looking over their shoulder."??

Again, the photo-finish photo has nothing to do with that -- but with regard to transparency in the stewards booth, that will "motivate" precisely because the public is looking over their shoulder. There is no further "how" -- that's it.

[Cangamble]

that would depend on both the speed of the film AND the amount of film (distance) that the photo finish operators at the particular track deem "one length" to be. to answer your question, probably between 15 and 18 lengths at most tracks....
This subjectivity is exactly why I would like to see real times for horses who finish behind the winner.

[Marlin]

rom #2) "Transparency in the stewards' booth would provide fans with a level of "quality assurance" -- perhaps motivating both the players and the officials to pick up their game a bit with the knowledge that the public is looking over their shoulder." He uses the same reasoning-"As with steward's report" for better camera work, so the winner is not in doubt. If you like I will add "IMHO" he is paranoid of officials cheating, and I also note many longer shots get taken down in favor of favorites. He did not state in the article how he figures his ideas about closer scutiny of stewards' decisions and reports, and better finish line camera work will "motivate the players ...to pick up their game a bit with the knowledge that the public is looking over their shoulder."??Someone posted that jocks shouldn't talk to stewards. I would love to hear that conversation. That conversation would be entertaining and informative. Instead of just SHOWING them on the phone, let us LISTEN to the conversation. It would make for great TV.

[proximity]

This subjectivity is exactly why I would like to see real times for horses who finish behind the winner.

they should just standardize this to be 1 length= 1/5 second at all tracks. and it would help if they'd set up a similar system for the pace calls too. because that's where the real subjectivity is !!:)

[fmhealth]

Indulto, actually the DRF does give free access to Crist's column. Here's the link:

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/

Hope this helps you.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Wow - where did that come from?!?
Thank you for the clarification- maybe what threw me most was the "simple" part, but you are much more knowledgeable than I about cameras and probably know how efficient the cost and value of doing the camera things would be.
I apologize for the "paranoid" remark!
As for the context, i am leery about cut and pasting much from other publications or websites. I'm glad you listed the 15 points inividually. Is it possible for you to reprint the entirety here?

[Indulto]

Indulto, actually the DRF does give free access to Crist's column. Here's the link:

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/

Hope this helps you.Thank you, fmh, but I was referring to his columns like that of 5/22 as opposed to his blog entries:
News: Columnists
...


Steven Crist

Can't count on showdowns (http:///drfNewsArticle.do?NID=104168) 05/28/2009 (Subscribers only)
Horse shortage a puzzler but also opportunity (http:///drfNewsArticle.do?NID=104014) 05/22/2009 (Subscribers only)
Preakness showed glass more than half-full (http:///drfNewsArticle.do?NID=103971) 05/21/2009 (Subscribers only)


Andrew Beyer

This time, the jockey made the difference (http:///news/article/103870.html) 05/18/2009
Gender not the issue for Rachel (http:///news/article/103792.html) 05/15/2009
One czar's plan to save Maryland racing (http:///news/article/103678.html) 05/11/2009Note that Crist's "columns" are viewable only by paid subscribers while Beyer's are also viewable by "free" subscribers as are Crist's blog entries..

[Quesmark]

Transparency in the stewards' booth doesn't assume cheating. It simply allows the public to have confidence that there is consistency and competence.

And the reason to post photo-finishes isn't to verify the winner after the fact. The Indiana Derby situation was simply used because it was an egregious example of how posting photo-finish photos on a track's website could have proven useful. And, in fact, rather than expose bad officiating -- posting that photo would have verified that the officials made the correct call.

But the reason to post photo-finish photos is actually much more mundane. Simply: People want to see them.

That brief shot of the photo on a track's video feed is easily missed. But if a bettor is involved in a close finish he (or she) would like to see the photo. Not to mention, many jurisdictions require the photo to be displayed.

The internet now provides the perfect place to "display" the photo -- making it conveniently available to virutally everyone.



When the Meadowlands runs its harness racing meet their website results page includes an option to view the finish strip photo for the entire field[in 2 sizes no less].If the Meadowlands can do it then any track could also post photo finishes on their websites,and provide them electronically to most ADW's with video capability almost instantly after the results are official.Meadowlands 2nd race, Thursday, May 28,2009http://www3.thebigm.com/getThumbnail.asp?width=728&iname=20244%5F205337%5Frace%5F2%2Ejpg

Example from:
http://www.thebigm.com/

[saratoga guy]

Nice.

Hong Kong offers even more -- the entire field at four different points during the race!

http://www.hkjc.com/images/RaceResult/20090527R1_L.jpg