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Lateralus
05-27-2009, 12:33 AM
Something I meant to post after the derby but forgot to do.

I always go over to Trackmaster the day after big racing days to see how each of the public handicappers there did. I have to say, I now have a profound respect for "Trackmaster Rick" Rick Needham for having stated something in his handicapping report that day that I have believed for a long, long time. Two year old horses should flat out not be raced. He went a lot farther than that though: he said that although it was his job to handicap all of the races including two year old races, he felt so strongly about it that he refuses to bet on two year old races. He basically said "bet on this race if you must" but that he was refusing to. Now THAT is conviction. He went on to say that to solve many of the issues involving horses becoming injured or breaking down, it could be solved to a large degree if everyone just flat out refused to bet on races for 2 year olds.

I agree 100% with Rick Needham. I have ALWAYS believed that, even in spite of the unsound Northern Dancer horrible soundness genes that plague modern thoroughbreds, if horses began their careers at age three and in their three year old season performed the light racing that two year olds now perform, the soundness issues would largely resolve themselves. FAR better than polytrack or any other high tech surface manipulation could accomplish.

And, perhaps the Northern Dancer lines are not really unsound at all! Perhaps his progeny are simply "late bloomers" like many HUMANS are. Many humans are solid and strong by age 14, but there are plenty who are rather frail even at age 17, perhaps not reaching full muscular and bone / ligament growth and strength until as late as age 19 or even 20 (especially true with human males). Those people are not "unsound", they simply develop at a slower rate. But ultimately, excepting those who are simply naturally destined to be frail, as adults the majority of "slow bloomers" end up as "sound" as everyone else. Why should it be any different with horses or any other species for that matter? Although you can't tell it by simply looking at a two year old horse, perhaps certain lineages such as the Northern Dancer line simply need more time for bones to fully harden and ligaments to a safe level of development and strength. I would go so far as to say even two year olds with proven soundness lineages should not be raced at two however. A horse raced lightly at age 3 and then starting their real career at age four should allow for ANY genetic line to become fully sound and injury therefore to become far less likely. And, although this is probably wishful thinking - perhaps breakdowns to become almost unheard of. Dramatically reduced at the very least though.

Protecting the very best horses should be accomplished in the same manner as for all horses. No racing as 2 year olds, light racing as 3 year olds. If the the Triple Crown series was moved ahead one year and became a series for four year olds, (as well as all of the other top races for three year olds moved up to four) we'd see the Nation's best horses around for much longer, more productive careers with significantly more starts per horse during the course of their career. That alone could solve a lot of the 5 and 6 horse field nonsense we see on many circuits.

The way I see it, this would be a WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN course of action. Certainly, during the transition a SMALL amount of pain would be required, but only for a 2-3 years. After that, I would predict more racing with fuller fields of much stronger horses. It would be a WIN for the owners and trainers because their horses would have longer careers with more starts = more money. A WIN for the jockeys because they'd be getting more mounts as well. A WIN for the tracks because the handle would go up dramatically with bigger fields of much stronger horses which would mean much better, more interesting racing. A WIN for all of us, because we'd have more racing and much BETTER racing to handicap and wager on. And of course, most importantly, a BIG WIN for the horses themselves who would be stronger and healthier, hopefully lifelong. I see the current situation as an example of the tracks, trainers, and owners allowing the goose that laid the golden egg to be gutted, rather than giving the goose time to lay golden eggs and reaping massive, permanent rewards into the future after a short period of transition.

Back to Rick Needham. I love the idea, and I'm going to start refusing to wager on 2 year old races myself. I won't know if I've missed a juicy overlay because I'm not going to handicap 2 year old races, either. It will take some small amount of enjoyment out of the game but nothing serious; I'll know I'm doing the right thing for the horses. Rick Needham has no choice but to handicap those races; it's his job. Imagine the kind of conviction it takes for Rick Needham to see a superb overlay on the board and refuse to bet it! My hat is off to you, Rick. The question is, to anyone interested in joining in this, what actions would you suggest could start and ignite a movement to get the public at large aware and to stop betting on two year old horses?

rastajenk
05-27-2009, 12:46 AM
Cue the windmills.

toussaud
05-27-2009, 12:54 AM
why should I not bet on 2YO races when I think he's wrong?

I don't think there is anything wrong with 2YO races. I think the probelm lies in the 2YOracing we have NOW as in like.. look at the card tomorrow. No races under 5F IMHO

macguy
05-27-2009, 01:13 AM
Well it's not exactly "WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN."

The whole reason that there is 2 year old racing is because people want (need?) to see a return on their investment quickly.

Why do you figure the 2 year old in training sales are so popular? The "idea" is buy a horse and take it to the races. None of this buying yearlings, breaking them and waiting months and months (sometimes years) before they are ready to race. Paying the bills month after month and seeing no return on investment.

Someone will have to pick up the additional costs of owning a racehorse that will not be able to perform until age 3 at the earliest, and that person (be it the breeder or an owner) will not be in a winning position.

Though I do not agree with the idea of outlawing 2 year old racing, I do believe middle ground can be found.

What's the point of having 2 year old's running 2f in March or April?

Instead of outlawing 2 year old racing, simply postpone two year old racing until the summer of their 2 year old year, June maybe July. By this time, most 2 year old's will ACTUALLY be two years old. Slightly more mature and ready to go, knees closed and all.

I also don't see the need to make 2 year old races so lucrative, if there wasn't so much money available in Futurities and Stakes races for 2 year old horses, than perhaps people would not be so inclined to push their stock so hard. Perhaps a "Purse Cap" on 2 year old racing. Create an environment where 2 year old horses can be run and earn purse money, but make the purses for 3 and 4 year old horses more lucrative. Therefore owners and trainers are pushed towards the idea of running their young stock, but at the same time thinking about the horses 3 and 4 year old years, and not pushing the young horse to try and make the quick "easy money" as a 2 year old.

Most horses are able and capable of being run as 2 year old's, and have been doing so for centuries. I honestly believe that the reason 2 year old horses are having shorter careers is more a result of the current training methods (including medication use) being utilized by the vast majority of today's owners and trainers, and less to do with the horses themselves.

kenwoodallpromos
05-27-2009, 03:16 AM
1) There are several major causes of unsoundness and breakdowns, one of which is running them too soon.
2) Jan 1 is the date that counts now- how about using the real foaling date?
3) Tbreds are raced as early as possible to avoid lost purses, and to get the real income, breeding, rolling as early as possible. If all breeding were done 1 year later, how much income would be lost?
4) My suggestion- no gelding allowed to race until actual age according to foaling date is 3, If raced at 2 as a colt then gelded, must wait 1 yr from gelding date to race; Colts and Fillies actual age 2 1/2.
5) I already do not bet on 2's.
6) Start giving horses and mares 1 lb off for each year of age over 6.

Lateralus
05-27-2009, 05:23 AM
Why do you figure the 2 year old in training sales are so popular? The "idea" is buy a horse and take it to the races. None of this buying yearlings, breaking them and waiting months and months (sometimes years) before they are ready to race. Paying the bills month after month and seeing no return on investment.

And yet, there are trainers who somehow manage to succeed without racing their horses at 2.

I still maintain that the overall return on investment would be significantly higher if they were to wait until age 3, even in spite of the cost of an extra years worth of bills. Most of the people who can afford to purchase yearlings could afford an extra years expenses easily. People looking for 2 year olds in training would then have to look for 3 year olds in training.

Anyone wanting to "buy a horse and take it to the races" should buy a claimer.

Lateralus
05-27-2009, 05:36 AM
1
5) I already do not bet on 2's.

Is this on principle or do you not do well on 2yo races?

lamboguy
05-27-2009, 07:11 AM
the horses that don't race at 2 are more prone to injuries than the ones that start early in their career's. its pretty simple to understand this concept, the ones that start early that have good bottoms underneath them, compete much better than the ones that were unfortunate to get their starts at the 3 yo year. the 3 yo now runs against much more advanced horses that had their start at 2. its astounding how many more injuries the 3 yo starters have compared to their counterparts that had the opportunity to start at 2.

the longevity factor also comes into play here, where the horses with the 2 yo bottoms actually have longer racing career's than the ones that start later.

macguy
05-27-2009, 01:05 PM
I will mention that I do know of an owner that absolutely refuses to race his horses at the age of two. And what I mean by that is he breeds his own horses, and doesn't allow them to be in training until their three year old year.

I can also tell you that his current 4 year old is unraced. He put the horse into training as a three year old. The first thing that happened is his shins went.
He ended up his three year old year not starting, and merely getting in a few breezes in the fall.

He's now got a few 5f works into him and will probably be hitting the races pretty soon, but now you're looking at a four year old who's going to be racing against 3 year old and upward maidens who've likely already got a handful of starts under their belts.

This is a pretty common occurrence with this particular owner, he doesn't race or train his two year old's, but he seems to end up with three year old's that have two year old's problems.

Cadillakin
05-27-2009, 01:38 PM
the horses that don't race at 2 are more prone to injuries than the ones that start early in their career's. its pretty simple to understand this concept, the ones that start early that have good bottoms underneath them, compete much better than the ones that were unfortunate to get their starts at the 3 yo year. the 3 yo now runs against much more advanced horses that had their start at 2. its astounding how many more injuries the 3 yo starters have compared to their counterparts that had the opportunity to start at 2.

the longevity factor also comes into play here, where the horses with the 2 yo bottoms actually have longer racing career's than the ones that start later.
I think there is a flaw in that argument. I heard Bramledge or one of the other vets offering that up as proof that 2 year old racing is actually beneficial...

But the fact is.. Many horses that are kept out of racing at 2 are not being kept out because of any conviction that it will make them better racers, but rather, they have soundness issues... Others are backwards or show no athletic inclination at that early age.. So, comparing horses who are sound and racing at 2 with horses that might have ongoing issues, or are lacking in athletic disposition, is neither fair or scientific.

Furthermore, I don't see the logic in nature.. The suggestion that a human athlete beginning at 10 is more likely to be sound than one beginning competition at 15 doesn't resonate with me.. I'm more likely to wonder, why the heck the 15 year old didn't start sooner if he had the ability and inclination to compete..

Angel Penna and Charlie Whittingham, two of the greats in modern racing both believed that 2 year olds racing was to be avoided... Whittingham said; "2 year olds are too soft-boned to endure the stress and strain of hard racing and competition"

It would be hard to find men that know more about the affects of racing than they do..

46zilzal
05-27-2009, 01:47 PM
Epiphyseal plates are NOT closed of course it is damaging to babies not any differently than a little league pitcher often distracting the head of the radius throwing too hard.

toussaud
05-27-2009, 02:23 PM
1) There are several major causes of unsoundness and breakdowns, one of which is running them too soon.
2) Jan 1 is the date that counts now- how about using the real foaling date?
3) Tbreds are raced as early as possible to avoid lost purses, and to get the real income, breeding, rolling as early as possible. If all breeding were done 1 year later, how much income would be lost?
4) My suggestion- no gelding allowed to race until actual age according to foaling date is 3, If raced at 2 as a colt then gelded, must wait 1 yr from gelding date to race; Colts and Fillies actual age 2 1/2.
5) I already do not bet on 2's.
6) Start giving horses and mares 1 lb off for each year of age over 6.


i'm fairly confident, at least in socal, that you cannot race a foal that is not 2YO as far as actual live foal date. if your foal was born april 20th and there is a 2F race on the 15th, you have to wait untilt he next one

lamboguy
05-27-2009, 03:38 PM
I think there is a flaw in that argument. I heard Bramledge or one of the other vets offering that up as proof that 2 year old racing is actually beneficial...

But the fact is.. Many horses that are kept out of racing at 2 are not being kept out because of any conviction that it will make them better racers, but rather, they have soundness issues... Others are backwards or show no athletic inclination at that early age.. So, comparing horses who are sound and racing at 2 with horses that might have ongoing issues, or are lacking in athletic disposition, is neither fair or scientific.

Furthermore, I don't see the logic in nature.. The suggestion that a human athlete beginning at 10 is more likely to be sound than one beginning competition at 15 doesn't resonate with me.. I'm more likely to wonder, why the heck the 15 year old didn't start sooner if he had the ability and inclination to compete..

Angel Penna and Charlie Whittingham, two of the greats in modern racing both believed that 2 year olds racing was to be avoided... Whittingham said; "2 year olds are too soft-boned to endure the stress and strain of hard racing and competition"

It would be hard to find men that know more about the affects of racing than they do..the most important thing to note is the way racing is actually structured. now if you want to change the structure of racing all together, i would say start racing at 3 would be good. but that is not how the game is played these days. therefore it is my opinion that the horses that start at 3 are at a disadvantage to those that start at 2. also from what i have seen these days, the guys that start at 3 have problems and are much more prone to career threatening injuries than the ones that make their debut at 2

1st time lasix
05-27-2009, 04:32 PM
As a player with an interest in breeding...........I have always really enjoyed two year old races. In fact one of my favorite days at Churchill is when they have all two year old races on the day's card. As a part owner {of just two horses now} with a couple of good friends that have more in the barn We long ago agreed to restict the "BABY" races to a maximum of two ---late in the two year old year assuming the horse is sound and considered a go by the trainer. Mixed results.....

Lateralus
05-28-2009, 07:00 AM
the most important thing to note is the way racing is actually structured. now if you want to change the structure of racing all together, i would say start racing at 3 would be good. but that is not how the game is played these days. therefore it is my opinion that the horses that start at 3 are at a disadvantage to those that start at 2. also from what i have seen these days, the guys that start at 3 have problems and are much more prone to career threatening injuries than the ones that make their debut at 2

If this is truly the case then they should be REQUIRED to begin at 2 rather than be unraced at 2.

Now, because I am saying "no racing at 2" does NOT mean I am suggesting no training at 2. Cadillakin mentioned Charlie Whittingham who I had the ultimate in respect for precisely because of how gentle he was with his horses especially the youngest ones. I do not know anything about Whittingham's breakdown and injury rate compared to the average trainer, but if it was significantly lower than average, it would pretty much verify what I suspect. CONVERSELY, if what some people are suggesting about 2 year old horses who have been raced suffering LESS injuries, then Whittingham's statistics on injury and breakdown of 3 and 4 year old horses should be much worse than average. I would be absolutely shocked beyond belief if that turned out to be the case.


Of course, training would be very good for a 2 year old. I would think actual racing would be unnecessary for proper development however. Training, appropriate for the age and development of a 2 year old horse (and of course, all are individuals as well), should not only be all that's required, it should result in a much more sound adult horse. Again, Whittingham's record would be near proof of this if those stats are available somewhere.

My instinct and general distrust for the people at the top levels of this sport tells me that the claim that 2 year olds who are raced end up more sound than unraced 2 year olds (who, though unraced, are STILL definitely trained, let us not forget) comes from people people at the top levels with vested interests in things remaining just the way they are.

I would be VERY interested to hear what some of the world's top veterinarians who are completely unconnected to the sport would have to say on this subject.