Do You Think Betting Should Be Cut Off At 1 MTP

[Cangamble]

Odds will still change as batching programs will still identify overlays at 2 MTP and cause those horses to drop in odds. But by the time the race goes off, the odds should be set. One thing that won't happen is people won't be able to bet or cancel maybe a second or two or 10 into the race. It is probably best for pool integrity to close at 1 MTP.
But is it worth getting shut out over this? And since we are in the 21st Century, it should be a given that no new bets will be accepted when the gates open, but unfortunately, it isn't.

[andymays]

I would like betting to close at the moment the gate opens. The technology must exist to make this work.

[Relwob Owner]

Odds will still change as batching programs will still identify overlays at 2 MTP and cause those horses to drop in odds. But by the time the race goes off, the odds should be set. One thing that won't happen is people won't be able to bet or cancel maybe a second or two or 10 into the race. It is probably best for pool integrity to close at 1 MTP.
But is it worth getting shut out over this? And since we are in the 21st Century, it should be a given that no new bets will be accepted when the gates open, but unfortunately, it isn't.


My opinion is yes, it should, assuming the techology doesnt exist to do it when the gates open(which it is fair to say does not exist now because of recent mess ups). People complain they will be shut put but if there is a solid, set time, bettors will adjust.

[Canadian]

Here is an angle in Harness racing I have used before. With trotters, well before the gate opens, often 1 or 2 horses are out of the race via braking, before the race even starts. Sometimes the bettor has 2 to 8 seconds to make a quick decision on whether to make a bet or not. I have in the past got good prices on horses that were kept high because of being braking risks and have bet them only after seeing them looking on the game and not braking as they came down the stretch They can still brake shortly after and into the turn or anywhere else- and that has happened- But dodging that break at the gate and just seeing if they are trotting definately helps.

Also, if you like a trotter say at 5,8 or 10-1, you can see how the favorites are approaching the gate, I've also won money by blurting out a $50 win on a horse after seeing the 1-2 favorite brake going down the stretch.

I would think that if you were dissiplined enough you could turn that into a long term winning angle.................... Unfortunately, I'm not nearly that dissiplined.

[Cangamble]

Here is an angle in Harness racing I have used before. With trotters, well before the gate opens, often 1 or 2 horses are out of the race via braking, before the race even starts. Sometimes the bettor has 2 to 8 seconds to make a quick decision on whether to make a bet or not. I have in the past got good prices on horses that were kept high because of being braking risks and have bet them only after seeing them looking on the game and not braking as they came down the stretch They can still brake shortly after and into the turn or anywhere else- and that has happened- But dodging that break at the gate and just seeing if they are trotting definately helps.

Also, if you like a trotter say at 5,8 or 10-1, you can see how the favorites are approaching the gate, I've also won money by blurting out a $50 win on a horse after seeing the 1-2 favorite brake going down the stretch.

I would think that if you were dissiplined enough you could turn that into a long term winning angle.................... Unfortunately, I'm not nearly that dissiplined.
I think most bettors are turned off by this type of angle. In fact, there was a betting syndicate at Woodbine and Greenwood in the early 80's or maybe even the late 70's (I'm not Larry King so I don't remember exactly) that bet a contender and sometimes a couple of contenders a race in a very large way, and they would cancel the ticket if the horse didn't get out good in harness races mostly. There were a few tellers that were in on the syndicate as well....they knew how important it was to cancel the bets (I think they had up to 30 seconds after the race started).

[Cangamble]

It would be nice to see why people are voting no to this question. I know track execs won't like this idea because of gate scratches and the opportunity bettors have to make replacement bets, and also track execs know that the bulk of the money is actually placed around 2 MTP and less.
But I think bettors will adjust if the rules are laid out, much like NFL bettors know that they have to have their bets in by 1 PM for early games.

[oddsmaven]

I'm okay with betting until the gate opens...either way you aren't going to be able to bet & guarantee getting the odds you see until the final bets are added in after it closes...for those that see the odds drop on a winner when the race is in progress, they need to realize that these betes were made before the gate opened...as far as cancelling bets - that shouldn't be allowed at the end.

[miesque]

I would prefer the cut-off to be as soon as the first horse loads into the starting gate, I think thats a good compromise.

[BillW]

I would prefer the cut-off to be as soon as the first horse loads into the starting gate, I think thats a good compromise.

I would agree except that there needs to be a good solution for when the 8th horse in backs out/breaks thru etc. then consequently gets scratched. Leaving the pools locked thru this doesn't work for me.

[Dave Schwartz]

I think that the racing industry has it backwards... The gate does not open and THEN the betting stops. The betting should be completed and all pools locked down before the horses load the gate.

[David-LV]

I would like betting to close at the moment the gate opens. The technology must exist to make this work.
I agree with you 100% that betting should close at the moment the gate opens.

All other methods have been tried with very limited if any success as most of the betting is done at or near to post time as possible.

If the New York Stock Exchange can post a trade that can be viewed worldwide within seconds then the geniuses that own these racetracks have to invest the money into updating their systems to bring pari-mutual out of the dark ages. :bang:

_______
David-LV

[stu]

I think that the racing industry has it backwards... The gate does not open and THEN the betting stops. The betting should be completed and all pools locked down before the horses load the gate.

I vote for this as well.

[macguy]

No betting shouldn't be cut off at 1MTP.

The same people that screw up pushing the button to stop betting when the gates open are the same people that are going to screw up when they are supposed to stop betting at 1MTP.

If you were to have the tote automatically stop accepting wagers at 1MTP, you open up a whole bunch of cans of worms.

The biggest deal would be the very common delays that occur when the horses are loading/getting ready to load, late scratches, etc. You could easily end up losing upwards of 5 minutes of betting per race, which translates into A LOT of handle.

As we all know, and as mentioned above, the vast majority of betting is done in the last few minutes prior to the gates opening. I doubt very much any racetrack would be willing to give that up.

[njcurveball]

Here is an angle in Harness racing I have used before. With trotters, well before the gate opens, often 1 or 2 horses are out of the race via braking, before the race even starts. .

Often? Where does this happen Often with one or two horses per race, I want to play there. :ThmbUp:

[Canadian]

If you were going to do it.... You would have to have a big count down clock come up on the screen somewhere with 1 minute left........ so people knew exactly how long they had.

[Relwob Owner]

No betting shouldn't be cut off at 1MTP.

The same people that screw up pushing the button to stop betting when the gates open are the same people that are going to screw up when they are supposed to stop betting at 1MTP.

If you were to have the tote automatically stop accepting wagers at 1MTP, you open up a whole bunch of cans of worms.

The biggest deal would be the very common delays that occur when the horses are loading/getting ready to load, late scratches, etc. You could easily end up losing upwards of 5 minutes of betting per race, which translates into A LOT of handle.

As we all know, and as mentioned above, the vast majority of betting is done in the last few minutes prior to the gates opening. I doubt very much any racetrack would be willing to give that up.



I feel like people wait until the last minute because they know they can. Once a rule is in place with a definitive cutoff time in place, bettors will have to adjust and will do so.

As far as late scratches and delays at the gate, you make a good point that it does create a logistical challenge and tracks would have to find a solution for that....however, these types of delays occur a small percentage of the time and as a result, I dont feel that they should dictate the overall rules.

[macguy]

I feel like people wait until the last minute because they know they can. Once a rule is in place with a definitive cutoff time in place, bettors will have to adjust and will do so.

As far as late scratches and delays at the gate, you make a good point that it does create a logistical challenge and tracks would have to find a solution for that....however, these types of delays occur a small percentage of the time and as a result, I dont feel that they should dictate the overall rules.

That makes sense. I just wonder where we draw the line?

Let's say a track implements this, then we find out one day, for whatever reason, betting wasn't cut off at 1MTP. Let's say it happens a few more times at different tracks within a couple of months.... Are we all going to be sitting on the board and arguing that betting should be cut off at 2MTP?

[Canadian]

Just looking at Mohawk tonight, 3 trot races so far and in two of those races trotters were out of it before the race even started.

Freehold today had 3 trot races in the first race one 2 starters could be counted out.

[point given]

Bring back ontrack bookmakers , licensed, who we can lock in odds with and give the player a choice of parimutual or fixed odds. In case this doesn't fly :rolleyes: , create a no bet zone at "o' mins to post when all horses are behind the gate but not yet loading . have a 2 minute warning siren etc all the htech stuff:eek:

[chickenhead]

The pools need to be finalized before the gates open. The pool needs to be closed far enough in advance so that happens. Whether thats 10 seconds or 10 minutes depends on the technology they use. If a horse flips and there is a scratch, open the pool back up. Just close it again in time to finalize the pool before they start. Obviously its in everyones best interests to have it be 10 seconds.

[Relwob Owner]

That makes sense. I just wonder where we draw the line?

Let's say a track implements this, then we find out one day, for whatever reason, betting wasn't cut off at 1MTP. Let's say it happens a few more times at different tracks within a couple of months.... Are we all going to be sitting on the board and arguing that betting should be cut off at 2MTP?


Good point....I dont think anyone has an answer to that....it is just really amazing that with all the technology that exists, a solid solution cant be found to avoid the incidents that have occurred.

One thing that I guess would help as well would be a standard, across the board solution when a problem does occur if there isnt one now.

[Warren Henry]

If the tracks and tote companies continue to use their current methods and technology, it doesn't matter when the cut off is supposed to be. There will still be foul-ups. The real solution to the problem is to have them use realtime technology so that the acceptance of bets is stopped immediately upon the opening of the gate and final pool updates are made within seconds of the off.

[Cangamble]

My only solution for gate scratches would be to announce that 2 minutes will be added on. If it is past the 1 MTP, then there could be a procedure to open up the windows for 2 minutes (of course, this could only happen if the horses who have been loaded be taken out of the gate).

[Cangamble]

If the tracks and tote companies continue to use their current methods and technology, it doesn't matter when the cut off is supposed to be. There will still be foul-ups. The real solution to the problem is to have them use realtime technology so that the acceptance of bets is stopped immediately upon the opening of the gate and final pool updates are made within seconds of the off.
It does matter with respect to the ability to cancel tickets. Right now, tellers have 15-30 seconds after the bell rings to cancel a ticket. This is in case a mistake was made at post time or if the person who bought a ticket doesn't pay up. At least I think this rule is still in place.
By cutting off at a minute to post, shenanigans can't be part of the cancellation process.

[stu]

My only solution for gate scratches would be to announce that 2 minutes will be added on. If it is past the 1 MTP, then there could be a procedure to open up the windows for 2 minutes (of course, this could only happen if the horses who have been loaded be taken out of the gate).

I believe that it takes 10 minutes to re-open the tote system. At least that is what I was told to motivate me not to hit the stewards button before they kick it.

[fmolf]

It does matter with respect to the ability to cancel tickets. Right now, tellers have 15-30 seconds after the bell rings to cancel a ticket. This is in case a mistake was made at post time or if the person who bought a ticket doesn't pay up. At least I think this rule is still in place.
By cutting off at a minute to post, shenanigans can't be part of the cancellation process.
i would cut off betting at 2 minutes off track and when the first horse is loaded on track....cancellations off track in the last two minutes after betting closes(no rebetting cancelled monies)and cancellations ontrack till gates open...this will at least give the people on track fixed odds to bet into instead of having them drop while the horses are rounding the clubhouse turn!

[Cangamble]

i would cut off betting at 2 minutes off track and when the first horse is loaded on track....cancellations off track in the last two minutes after betting closes(no rebetting cancelled monies)and cancellations ontrack till gates open...this will at least give the people on track fixed odds to bet into instead of having them drop while the horses are rounding the clubhouse turn!
Why should people on track have an advantage?

[ryesteve]

Let's say a track implements this, then we find out one day, for whatever reason, betting wasn't cut off at 1MTP.
Does that really make a difference? If the windows are supposed to close at 1 mtp, and once in a blue moon someone gets in a bet at 30 seconds, is that going to get you as upset as a bet that occurs 30 seconds late under the current system??

No matter when betting gets cut off, you're always going to see weird odd shifts when the simulcast money comes in. The only thing the early cutoff will do is convince everyone that none of the money is coming in from bets that are being placed during the race.

[macguy]

Does that really make a difference? If the windows are supposed to close at 1 mtp, and once in a blue moon someone gets in a bet at 30 seconds, is that going to get you as upset as a bet that occurs 30 seconds late under the current system??

No matter when betting gets cut off, you're always going to see weird odd shifts when the simulcast money comes in. The only thing the early cutoff will do is convince everyone that none of the money is coming in from bets that are being placed during the race.


That's the point I am trying to get across... :jump:

No matter when you make the cut-off, there's always a chance that errors will be made. Whether betting stops at the opening of the gate, one minute to post, or 5 minutes to post, as long as there is a human element, there's going to be a chance that things are going to go wrong.

The way the tote system works now, when betting cuts off at the opening of the gate, you will occasionally (depending on the tracks sometimes more often than not) get odds fluctuations as the race is running.

So what's the big difference when you have already placed your bets, betting has closed off at 1MTP, then as the computer is catching up with the late money, you watch your odds drop. The horses are now at the gate, the odds have still fluctuated after you've placed your bet, the only difference is the horses are standing at the gate instead of running down the backstretch.

The late money has still come in, just in time, and you've still had the big odds change, the only difference is the horses are at the post, instead of running.

To me there is no difference. I happen to believe that the VAST majority of the time betting is closed at the appropriate time. I do not believe that every time an even money shot drops down to 3-5 during the duration of the race that some big whale is past-posting at some dog track OTB in Florida.

[sandpit]

I voted to cut off betting early, but see why the late scratches would cause an outcry. However, couldn't everyone be given the option of getting a refund if they weren't able to cancel their tickets? I know the tracks wouldn't like giving back money, but you would think the good will shown would outweigh the short-term loss.

Tom Meeker, retired president CDI, used to get more infuriated by the inability of the tote companies to come up with new technology than anything else he had to deal with. But the 3 companies operate on such small margins, because of negotiated deals with the tracks, that they have little or no money to spend on upgrades, at least that is what they have often claimed. Who is to blame is of no consequence, but whatever the solution is, somebody should step up to the plate and be willing to fork over the cash to fix it.

PS: In company meetings years ago, Meeker used to often speak of the need of consolidation of racing and tracks. Maybe he had a better sense of what was going to happen than the technology genius they hired to replace him.

[NJ Stinks]

Las Vegas used to cut off wagering when the first horse entered the gate. (I don't know if they still do.) I think it worked well enough. It's certainly better than what we have now IMO.

[Imriledup]

I voted no and here's why.

I don't think the players should be the ones to 'compromise' because the tote companies and racetracks won't spend the money to make sure the tote system is failproof and accurate.

I think there should be no cancelling tickets. Tellers shouldn't be allowed to ever cancel, none of this 8 seconds after the race starts junk.

Stop making the bettors 'pay'. Its not up to the bettors, its up to the tote companies and racetracks to make sure no one is betting after the start. Not rocket science.

[Norm]

It would be nice to see why people are voting no to this question. I voted "No" because I don't think it would help me as a bettor if the betting closed at 1 MTP. It's not when the betting closes that matters to me, it's when the money is posted on the board that matters. Many times I have accepted an even money bet on what I consider a solid horse only to have it win but pay $2.10 because of late betting posted after the start. If I knew it would pay only $2.10, I wouldn't bet, but that wouldn't make track management happy. Actually, I don't think there is any way to prevent that from happening EXCEPT to legalize bookmaking. You could have the bookies licensed by the State so that the politicians get all their nickels and dimes and bettors like me would be happy because I would get the odds I accepted when I placed the bet. Yeah, I know ... fat chance.

[startngate]

It would be nice to see why people are voting no to this question. I know track execs won't like this idea because of gate scratches and the opportunity bettors have to make replacement bets, and also track execs know that the bulk of the money is actually placed around 2 MTP and less.
But I think bettors will adjust if the rules are laid out, much like NFL bettors know that they have to have their bets in by 1 PM for early games.I voted no because I agree with andymays ... the technology should be upgraded to allow for it. Locking the pools at 1 minute to post doesn't fix the problem.

It does matter with respect to the ability to cancel tickets. Right now, tellers have 15-30 seconds after the bell rings to cancel a ticket. This is in case a mistake was made at post time or if the person who bought a ticket doesn't pay up. At least I think this rule is still in place.
By cutting off at a minute to post, shenanigans can't be part of the cancellation process.The largest close-cancel delay is down to 8 seconds, and was never at 15-30. The maximum I have ever seen was 10. By the way, 8 seconds is at Turf Paradise. All the California tracks are at 4. Here's the complete list:

http://www.tra-online.com/c-dupdate.html

Yes, there can be shenanigans if a customer and mutuel teller are in bed together, but the close cancel delay only works on the last ticket the teller punched and therefore are pretty obvious to a line supervisor and/or mutuel manager assuming they are paying attention.

Irregardless, all tracks should be at zero, even if it means they have to cover a teller mistake or two. The teller unions are the primary reason these haven't been completely wiped out.

[BlueShoe]

Just when is 1 mtp?When there are bad actors behind the gate the load can take several minutes.Keep it the way it is and bring the technology into the 21st century.

[rastajenk]

I think the Law of Unintended Consequences would be hugely in play if you started cutting people off too soon. I don't see any significant upside to it. In fact, I think there should be a third choice in the poll: Absolutely Not. :ThmbDown:

Am I reading this right: "Many times I have accepted an even money bet on what I consider a solid horse only to have it win but pay $2.10 because of late betting posted after the start." Many times? Even money to 1-9? On a last flash? Many times? I don't think it's happened even once, unless I'm early morning stupid and not interpreting it correctly. Statements like this and the 30-second cancellation thing undercut much of the validity the early cutoff folks have.

[DanG]

If you watch the DOW at 4:00 EST it is still calculating up to a few minutes after they ring the bell.

If Wall Street can’t get absolute numbers when they clang the bell with their infrastructure, then we need to close the pools the day before with our crayons and abacus.

Post time is post time…1 minute prior unless you scratch ½ the field at Charlestown; then you re-set post time and re-open the tote.

When they spring the latch is just too late given current technology. If the pools don’t move at all after the bell; it does greatly reduce the past posting possibility and that is the goal. You can still theoretically have the MIT geeks who backdoor the tote through cancelled tickets or whatever means and play four singles / All – All P6, but it’s a start.

[ryesteve]

To me there is no difference. I happen to believe that the VAST majority of the time betting is closed at the appropriate time.
You've just illustrated the difference. Is it really good enough to believe that merely "the VAST majority" of races aren't getting tainted by past-posting? Wouldn't it be preferable to know that ALL races aren't being bet in-progress?

[David-LV]

If you close the pools at anytime before the gate opens you will see a dramatic drop in the handle.

Playing and betting the horses for over 50 years and watching how and when people bet leads me to this conclusion.

It is time to spend the money and update the ancient pari-mutual systems that are in use today.

There is a much different visual effect on the player knowing that betting is closed when the gate opens vs when the time changes from two minutes to post to one minute to post.

Closing the pools at anytime before the gate open is one of the few things that track management has gotten right.

________
David-LV

[DanG]

If you close the pools at anytime before the gate opens you will see a dramatic drop in the handle.

Playing and betting the horses for over 50 years and watching how and when people bet leads me to this conclusion.

It is time to spend the money and update the ancient pari-mutual systems that are in use today.
________
David-LV
Who will finance it?

If you can get this industry to post an on-line shoe board David you have gotten blood from a Magna stone. I’ve heard estimations of a ¼ billion +. It just isn’t going to happen in our lifetime; so it seems like a reasonable workaround.

You could very well be right some players will have a cow, as horseplayers as a group have roots like an Oak tree. If we can’t adjust to a +- 60 second alteration in our routine, then I feel we have lost credibility in challenging an industry that also fails to adapt.

[David-LV]

Who will finance it?

Let the states finance it. They tax this sport up the wazoo.

BTW: Dan, When are you going to make it to Las Vegas ?
If there ever was a speaker that could add some great insight to this sport at Ken's seminar it is you. Let's start making plans right now for 2010.

______
David-LV

[Cangamble]

If you close the pools at anytime before the gate opens you will see a dramatic drop in the handle.

Playing and betting the horses for over 50 years and watching how and when people bet leads me to this conclusion.

It is time to spend the money and update the ancient pari-mutual systems that are in use today.

There is a much different visual effect on the player knowing that betting is closed when the gate opens vs when the time changes from two minutes to post to one minute to post.

Closing the pools at anytime before the gate open is one of the few things that track management has gotten right.

________
David-LV
I highly doubt you will see a drop in the handle. Players will adjust, and you might even see less fluctuations in odds as players will make sure they don't get shut out, so what you see at 5 minutes to post, may not change all that much.

[DanG]

I’m all for the state financing David, but I don’t believe either of us should hold our breath.

Thanks for the kind words David, but the seminar is in far better hands then I could ever provide. I’m trying to work out last second scheduling for this year, but it’s still up in the air.

[Cangamble]

Lets not forget a big plus in shutting off at 1 MTP. It gives the totes 1 minute to realize if the totes are actually shut off. If not, they can tell the track to delay the start until the problem is fixed.

[David-LV]

I highly doubt you will see a drop in the handle. Players will adjust, and you might even see less fluctuations in odds as players will make sure they don't get shut out, so what you see at 5 minutes to post, may not change all that much.


Having lived in Las Vegas since the beginning of pari-mutual I have seen first hand that when the casino race books were shutting the betting off when the first horse entered the gate there was a significant drop in their handle.

This significant drop in handle was the reason that this policy was short lived.

It is time to find the money and update these systems. When something is broke as these systems seem to be you fix them you don't try to patch them up.

_________
David-LV

[Cangamble]

Having lived in Las Vegas since the beginning of pari-mutual I have seen first hand that when the casino race books were shutting the betting off when the first horse entered the gate there was a large drop in their handle.

The large drop in handle was the reason that this policy was short lived.

It is time to find the money and update these systems. When something is broke as these systems seem to be you fix them you don't try to patch them up.

_________
David-LV
There is a difference when others have an advantage, which was the case when it came to those not betting in Vegas, as people tend to procrastinate and wait the odds out. Those in Vegas were playing at a disadvantage. A drop in handle would be expected in that case.

[David-LV]

There is a difference when others have an advantage, which was the case when it came to those not betting in Vegas, as people tend to procrastinate and wait the odds out. Those in Vegas were playing at a disadvantage. A drop in handle would be expected in that case.


Maybe, but I don't think that it even entered the mind of the average player in Las Vegas that somebody, somewhere had an advantage over them.

________
David-LV

[FenceBored]

Lets not forget a big plus in shutting off at 1 MTP. It gives the totes 1 minute to realize if the totes are actually shut off. If not, they can tell the track to delay the start until the problem is fixed.

Exactly. :jump: The only way you can stop past posting, is to ensure that the pools are locked before the gate opens. The only way to ensure the pools are closed, is to give yourself time to check before the gate opens.

[FenceBored]

Why should people on track have an advantage?

To encourage higher attendance figures? :D

[andymays]

One of the biggest problems with stopping betting with a minute to post is if there is an incident in the gate and you want to cancel before the race goes off. How will they handle that? How will they handle scratches at the gate? Will betting be "turned on" again and then shut off?

The main reason tracks don't want to shut off the betting prior to the gates opening is that it can only cost them handle.

[Relwob Owner]

One of the biggest problems with stopping betting with a minute to post is if there is an incident in the gate and you want to cancel before the race goes off. How will they handle that? How will they handle scratches at the gate? Will betting be "turned on" again and then shut off?

The main reason tracks don't want to shut off the betting prior to the gates opening is that it can only cost them handle.



That is definitely their reason for doing it....however, with the recent incidents, it is clearly flawed and the tracks are setting themselves up for some sort of lawsuit should this continue to happen.....that should be some sort of motivation for change but maybe not....


As far as late scratches go, reset the post time for 5(maybe more?) minutes and close it then.

I really do think that once they have clear rules, bettors will adjust.

[David-LV]

I really do think that once they have clear rules, bettors will adjust.
Good luck.

Getting all the different tracks in different jurisdictions to agree on one set of clear rules will by itself be nothing short of a miracle. :bang:

_______
David-LV

[rwwupl]

Las Vegas used to cut off wagering when the first horse entered the gate. (I don't know if they still do.) I think it worked well enough. It's certainly better than what we have now IMO.


People adjust to the situation.

If post time for the first race is 1:00Pm, then everyone who wants to will arrive to do business at 1:00PM.

If post time is 12:30,everyone will arrive to do business at 12:30

If you cut off wagering after the first horse enters the gate,any loss of revenue will be temporary,and customers will adjust accordingly.

It is important to solve the late odds changes NOW.

If anyone gets shut out under new conditions, it is their fault,just as it is now.

[andymays]

They ought to be able to find out where the late bets are coming from and sanction those outlets or individuals with fines or suspensions of their betting privileges.

This can't be that hard a problem to solve if everyone is on the same page but it seems that there are powerful interests here that don't want change!

[DeanT]

One thing about closing the betting when the first horse loads which might help the business is with scheduling. Far too often we have a haphazard off times grid in racing. A race is supposed to go off at 10:40 and it goes off at 10:50; throw in four other tracks running at the same time and we see more often than not an overlap. If a strict set of off times is adhered to, we might see better handles, as bettors will know that in ten minutes another race will go off, come hell or high water.

In the UK it is pretty interesting how they stick to off times with four major venues racing at the same time in the day - pretty much a race every ten minutes. We can do much better with that, imo.

[silk]

Do horseplayers really think tracks will voluntarily spend the money to upgrade the tote? We know they won't. And tote companies are too broke to upgrade.

That leaves national industry organizations and state racing commissions, very little shot for a mandated upgrade there.

So the tracks have it figured out, why spend millions to upgrade when players will accept a faulty tote system?

I support demanding the closing of pools at 1-2 minutes to post so that ALL pools, not just the win, are closed before the first horse is loaded. If there is a problem with merging the pools, then circle the horses until all pools are final. No past posting, no mid race odds changes, no manipulation of the cancel-delay to take an edge.

It's my understanding that re-opening the wagering because of a gate scratch wouldn't be feasible under this plan, but as a professional player, I'll reluctantly accept that in exchange for much more secure pools.

This plan would give the tracks a real reason to invest in new technology if they want to return to pools closing when the gates open.

[andymays]

Maybe we're all missing the next big thing in racing. Allow anyone who wants to to make a bet up until the first two furlongs are run.

I don't think so!

[Cangamble]

Maybe we're all missing the next big thing in racing. Allow anyone who wants to to make a bet up until the first two furlongs are run.

I don't think so!
Betfair has many races where you can bet them "in play" Right to the wire.
Same with football, hockey and basketball games.

[andymays]

Betfair has many races where you can bet them "in play" Right to the wire.
Same with football, hockey and basketball games.

I get it in sports betting but in Horse racing? It's gotta be the end of the world soon!

[Hajck Hillstrom]

....comes sacrifice.

What we are looking for is integrity in the pools, and a 1 minute pre-post tote lockdown will offer that.

I find no problem with race odds posted when the gates open. This should be the objective.

Cangamble has it right.... bettors will adjust, and a major flaw in the sport will be eliminated.

[rwwupl]

Scientific Games was asked at a CHRB meeting last year in California why they had not been able to stop late odds changes as they had promised.

The explanation boiled down to the fact they could, but it would require a major investment in new hardware,not only for Scientific games,but for all the sites the signal was transmitted to,and the new hardware for the sites would have to be paid for by the sites.

The proposal was then made(By myself) to the Board to put an end to late odds changes now by simply requiring that betting be stopped when the first horse entered the gate.

It was pointed out the only cost would be temporary until the customers made the adjustment, and it would clear up one big question in this area that the public believes that there is a lack of integrity in the pari-mutuel process.

The CHRB Board decided to give Scientific Games more time to do what they said they could not do at this meeting and study more software methods and extended their contract to do so.

The result has been zero accomplished and the perception of lack of integrity problem has increased.

Ref: CHRB Pari-Mutuel Committee meeting Oct. 19th,2007
--------------------------------------------------------------


The following is a letter to the CHRB Chairman 12-19-07 with addresses blocked out concerning the matter.


12/19/07


Richard B. Shapiro, Chairman, CHRB
xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx
Dear Richard


Past posting has become a fact with many examples. I am sure it has not escaped you. The CHRB has made an effort some time ago to control the problem by gaining a promise from Scientific Games to modify its software to give proportional payouts when a dead heat occurs and put an end to late odds changes.

Scientific Games at the October 19th meeting of the Pari-Mutuel Committee that I attended said they could not do the job.
The discussion established two main points. It could be done with an investment in new hardware by Scientific Games and the connecting racetracks but it was described as too expensive. Scientific Games asked for two more years to solve the software problems that they said could not be done.

The second point was when others and I proposed verbally that the CHRB solve the problem now on late odds changes with a simple solution while Scientific Games continued research, by cutting off betting when the first horse enters the gate.

The racetrack people there opposed this idea on the grounds that someone may be shut out and there may be some revenue loss until the bettors get used to the cutoff. It was very clear at the meeting that the CHRB wanted to please the racetracks at the expense of the public bettor.

The late odds changes goes to the very integrity of the game. The perception is that the betting process is tainted, and one would think that the CHRB would do everything possible to change that, yet it does, basically, nothing.

Inconveniencing a few fans and losing a few dollars in handle, is a small price to pay for solving a problem that needs resolution.

When many public dollars are being bet and have it change hands under such lax security, you are inviting larceny.

It is part of your mission statement that the CHRB is to protect the bettor. I view that the CHRB is not protecting the bettor or the public trust on this issue that they have been given. In effect you are violating that trust.
I ask you as Chairman to reconsider the CHRB position on this matter at your earliest convenience.


Thank You.

xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Copy: Mike Marten xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Relwob Owner]

Good luck.

Getting all the different tracks in different jurisdictions to agree on one set of clear rules will by itself be nothing short of a miracle. :bang:

_______
David-LV



Agreed....

[CBedo]

It just seems to me that a change in policy (shutting off betting at a certain MTP) is just a band-aid. There will just be new problems and complaints. To fix the problem, we need an actual structural change (capital investment) in technology that will shut off betting everywhere at the same time and with the low cost of communications, get rid of old batch technology and transmit wagers real time so that what we see is what we get.

I also recognize that in an industry that is on the decline, getting new investment in technology is unfortunately unlikely, but I can dream.

[Cholly]

History indicates that cutting off betting at 1MTP will cost the tracks business. I suspect there is a segment accustomed to placing their bet after seeing the first furlong of the race. If denied this advantage, they will quit gambling on horses and move on to other scams.

[Imriledup]

The biggest problem in all of this is that racetracks MAKE MONEY by people being able to bet after the start. Every dollar that goes into the pools is more money for the track. It doesn't matter if its the biggest pro bettor in the country or the little old lady from Pasadena, its all the same, more money for the track.


So, what we are proposing to do is tell racetracks and tote companies to spend a lot of money to make sure that they make less revenue? usually, when an expensive investment is made, its made on the premise that the investment will be recouped at some point in the very near future. Not only will this investment NOT be recouped, but its a money loser. Horseplayers are creatures of habit and it will take some people months or years to figure out that betting closes 1 mtp. I know, that you'll say its the players fault for not adjusting, but the tracks don't care about that....every race someone gets shut out is money lost forever that can never be recovered.

[Cangamble]

The biggest problem in all of this is that racetracks MAKE MONEY by people being able to bet after the start. Every dollar that goes into the pools is more money for the track. It doesn't matter if its the biggest pro bettor in the country or the little old lady from Pasadena, its all the same, more money for the track.


So, what we are proposing to do is tell racetracks and tote companies to spend a lot of money to make sure that they make less revenue? usually, when an expensive investment is made, its made on the premise that the investment will be recouped at some point in the very near future. Not only will this investment NOT be recouped, but its a money loser. Horseplayers are creatures of habit and it will take some people months or years to figure out that betting closes 1 mtp. I know, that you'll say its the players fault for not adjusting, but the tracks don't care about that....every race someone gets shut out is money lost forever that can never be recovered.
Money is not lost forever. Joe Blow only has so much to lose a year, and Joe will lose it on later races eventually.

[Imriledup]

Money is not lost forever. Joe Blow only has so much to lose a year, and Joe will lose it on later races eventually.

Its lost forever and here's why. Even though Joe Blow will eventually lose it, because it takes him LONGER to lose it, that costs the track money. They need to get that money as quick as possible.
The longer it takes the track to get Joe's money, the more it costs them.

[Cangamble]

Its lost forever and here's why. Even though Joe Blow will eventually lose it, because it takes him LONGER to lose it, that costs the track money. They need to get that money as quick as possible.
The longer it takes the track to get Joe's money, the more it costs them.
I disagree. Over the long run, you are only going to get X amount a year off Joe. Joe will get his bets in on time most of the time, he'll get shut out some of the time, and sometimes he'll get refunds from scratched horses...but in the end, collectively all the Joe's will lose X amount a year.

[Imriledup]

I disagree. Over the long run, you are only going to get X amount a year off Joe. Joe will get his bets in on time most of the time, he'll get shut out some of the time, and sometimes he'll get refunds from scratched horses...but in the end, collectively all the Joe's will lose X amount a year.
I know what you're saying, i just think that it costs the track more money if it takes them 12 months to get Joe's money as opposed to 6 months. Look at it this way. If Joe was the only customer of the racetrack and they got his entire bankroll in 6 months, they could close the track the other 6 months and save money on expenses. If Joe was the only customer, they wouldn't want to wait 12 months to accomplish the same thing they could in 6 months. Joe's attendance in the last 6 months of the year cost the track money. it costs them money to turn on the electricity and pay the employees.

[Cangamble]

I know what you're saying, i just think that it costs the track more money if it takes them 12 months to get Joe's money as opposed to 6 months. Look at it this way. If Joe was the only customer of the racetrack and they got his entire bankroll in 6 months, they could close the track the other 6 months and save money on expenses. If Joe was the only customer, they wouldn't want to wait 12 months to accomplish the same thing they could in 6 months. Joe's attendance in the last 6 months of the year cost the track money. it costs them money to turn on the electricity and pay the employees.
In most cases it is days if not just a race before the track gets Joe's missed money.

[fmolf]

most tracks whose handle is going down are not going to invest money in any capital improvement no matter what it is....so unless it is mandated by law then it will never happen....we will just have to live the tote system that is now in place ....and let the bettor beware!.. maybe the wave of the future is conditional wagering everywhere?..i think that is the best solution to an ongoing problem......then you may see horses going the other way....go off at 6/5 and jump back to 2/1 as the horses head for home :lol:

[JohnGalt1]

I would prefer the cut-off to be as soon as the first horse loads into the starting gate, I think thats a good compromise.


I voted yes, but I would've voted for this if this was one of the options.

[Greyfox]

History indicates that cutting off betting at 1MTP will cost the tracks business. I suspect there is a segment accustomed to placing their bet after seeing the first furlong of the race. If denied this advantage, they will quit gambling on horses and move on to other scams.

What track are you talking about? I've never seen anyone watch the first furlong of a race and then bet. Not at any of the tracks I've ever played.

[Cangamble]

I voted yes, but I would've voted for this if this was one of the options.
If you start counting from when the first horse is loaded to when the bell rings, even in a six horse field, it is probably close to a minute or longer most of the time. At least 30 seconds.

[rastajenk]

You beat me to it, greyfox. I was going to say, "Prove it," and then I thought he just might have posted it facetiously; can't really tell from here. Or he might really believe it; there's no shortage of misinformed racing experts out there, you know.

[beertapper]

this might sound dumb, but wouldn't a betting exchange w/ fixed odds resolve this issue?

the wps pools should convert into a betting exchange system, where people can lock into prices..

pari-mutuel pools could then focus on exactas, supers, p4, p6, etc.. bets with thousands of combinations that would not work well with on a betting exchange..

[Imriledup]

this might sound dumb, but wouldn't a betting exchange w/ fixed odds resolve this issue?

the wps pools should convert into a betting exchange system, where people can lock into prices..

pari-mutuel pools could then focus on exactas, supers, p4, p6, etc.. bets with thousands of combinations that would not work well with on a betting exchange..

:lol:
This is America, the land of buying someone off. The right people haven't bought off the right politicians as of yet. Hopefully Betfair can change all that at some point before i die of old age.

[Cangamble]

this might sound dumb, but wouldn't a betting exchange w/ fixed odds resolve this issue?

the wps pools should convert into a betting exchange system, where people can lock into prices..

pari-mutuel pools could then focus on exactas, supers, p4, p6, etc.. bets with thousands of combinations that would not work well with on a betting exchange..
I've seen Betfair allow matches 3-5 seconds into the race. There are people that have real time feeds versus those who have delayed feeds by a couple of seconds. Many times you don't worry about pulling your play once it is in with seconds to post or when the race goes off. There are those who take advantage of the possibility that they can play after seeing the start, and they play accordingly. This gives them what I think is an unfair edge.

I'm not talking about IN PLAY races here, obviously.

[jballscalls]

the only problem with ending betting 1 minute to post in my opinion is that your going to still get those last minute huge odd swings when the late money comes in. you'll be betting your horse at 2 to 1 and half way through the loading process he goes down to 7/5. it's going to change late either way with the money coming in late as it always does.

i guess you would have a small amount of time to cancel, but then instead of going to your seat you have to sit by a machine cause their will be a mad rush to the tellers to cancel bets.

And spoken as a true race track employee, then you have lots of bets cancelling, handle goes down, purses go down, and i get fired!! ;)

[Cangamble]

the only problem with ending betting 1 minute to post in my opinion is that your going to still get those last minute huge odd swings when the late money comes in. you'll be betting your horse at 2 to 1 and half way through the loading process he goes down to 7/5. it's going to change late either way with the money coming in late as it always does.

i guess you would have a small amount of time to cancel, but then instead of going to your seat you have to sit by a machine cause their will be a mad rush to the tellers to cancel bets.

And spoken as a true race track employee, then you have lots of bets cancelling, handle goes down, purses go down, and i get fired!! ;)
The key is not allowing cancellations after 1 MTP. Just allow 5 seconds for teller errors after the betting shuts off.
And I still contend that the odds will fluctuate much less because people will be trained to bet earlier.

[so.cal.fan]

I voted yes to this poll question, because it would add more integrity to the pools.
However....there needs to be a catch.....you can CANCEL a bet up until the flag goes up.

[Imriledup]

The key is not allowing cancellations after 1 MTP. Just allow 5 seconds for teller errors after the betting shuts off.
And I still contend that the odds will fluctuate much less because people will be trained to bet earlier.

No 5 seconds for teller error. Most money that's bet today is bet off track, most people have absolutely no use for tellers. With the 5 second window, that just leaves room for larceny. If you are a teller, find a way to not make a mistake.

[CBedo]

I still maintain that although cutting off betting 1 minute before post would prevent (in this technology environment) some past posting, that there would still be some who would find a way to gain advantage by betting up to post time while you and I were cut off at 1 minute.

We don't need a rule change, we need a change in structure and attitude in the integrity of the process and systems.

[Imriledup]

I still maintain that although cutting off betting 1 minute before post would prevent (in this technology environment) some past posting, that there would still be some who would find a way to gain advantage by betting up to post time while you and I were cut off at 1 minute.

We don't need a rule change, we need a change in structure and attitude in the integrity of the process and systems.

The problem with cutting betting off at 1 MTP is this. If you cut the betting off early, you are saying "we understand that you don't want to spend the money to get the tote systems secure, we accept that and to prove how much we love you, we, as bettors, will compromise and let you shut off betting at 1 MTP. We don't want you to spend money upgrading tote systems, you keep that money and buy your wife a new outfit at the mall"

Cutting off the tote early just lets the tote company slide. If we permit them to NOT upgrade their systems, what else, as bettors, are we going to permit?

Bettors have been getting the shaft since the beginning of time. Its time for someone else to step up to the plate and spend THEIR money to get stuff done. Its their responsibility to make sure the tote system is secure, its not the players responsibility.

[FenceBored]

I still maintain that although cutting off betting 1 minute before post would prevent (in this technology environment) some past posting, that there would still be some who would find a way to gain advantage by betting up to post time while you and I were cut off at 1 minute.

We don't need a rule change, we need a change in structure and attitude in the integrity of the process and systems.

If the host track stops accepting bets at 1 MTP, and refuses to honor bets made at other locations after that point, I don't see how someone makes a bet into the pool.

[CBedo]

If the host track stops accepting bets at 1 MTP, and refuses to honor bets made at other locations after that point, I don't see how someone makes a bet into the pool.
If they could do that at 1MTP, why can't they do it on the start of the race? It doesn't make sense to think that the integrity of the system is going to get better just because we move the supposed cut-off point.

[Relwob Owner]

If they could do that at 1MTP, why can't they do it on the start of the race? It doesn't make sense to think that the integrity of the system is going to get better just because we move the supposed cut-off point.



I am sure there are logistics and challenges that would make this impossible but.....why cant each track simply have a direct betting outlet to the track and all the money for each track would come through there? People that are off track could bet and have video on one site and if they wanted to bet more than one track, they could go to each site. I have wondered about this since the advent of ADW's.....seems like the middlemen are a huge part of the problem-this is more of a question to all you guys in terms of why it cant be done....

[Cangamble]

If they could do that at 1MTP, why can't they do it on the start of the race? It doesn't make sense to think that the integrity of the system is going to get better just because we move the supposed cut-off point.
The public will accept that when the horses load and they see the last odds change that it was late money before 1 MTP that moved the odds.
Now, many think that some have an edge being able to view the start or even first 5-10 seconds. Plus it gives the tote companies a great chance to close the system if there is a failure at 1 MTP, by the time the race begins.

[BIG49010]

If a horse acts up on the way to the gate, or is tough to load it's a scratch, with betting closed a minute to post?

If I am betting a horse with a bad gate history, I wait to see how it goes in before I hit the button to bet.

[FenceBored]

If they could do that at 1MTP, why can't they do it on the start of the race? It doesn't make sense to think that the integrity of the system is going to get better just because we move the supposed cut-off point.

The integrity improves based on one thing: Reaction time.

Let's say you you go to your favorite swimming pool at opening time. You walk straight out of the locker room and climb up the ladder to the 10ft diving board. You then proceed to dive off the board. As you fall you look at the pool's interior. If there's water in the pool, you're good. If there's no water in the pool, it's too late to do anything about it. Closing the betting pools long enough before the start of the race to make sure they're closed is like looking in the swimming pool to insure there's water before you dive. Most of the time it won't matter, but when it does you'll be glad you looked first.

[CBedo]

The integrity improves based on one thing: Reaction time.

Let's say you you go to your favorite swimming pool at opening time. You walk straight out of the locker room and climb up the ladder to the 10ft diving board. You then proceed to dive off the board. As you fall you look at the pool's interior. If there's water in the pool, you're good. If there's no water in the pool, it's too late to do anything about it. Closing the betting pools long enough before the start of the race to make sure they're closed is like looking in the swimming pool to insure there's water before you dive. Most of the time it won't matter, but when it does you'll be glad you looked first.
So then, we're just band-aiding the system, saying "we can't guarantee the system will shut off bets as soon as the race goes, but trust us that we will get it shut off in less than a minute; therefore, if we shut it off at 1 MTP, it will be closed before the beginning of a race.

This makes sense to me (if you can show me that 1 MTP is actually a long enough period of time--how far do we have to go, 10MTP, haha), but if you don't think that someone will still gain advantage by having that extra minute in some way, then yiou underestimate people gaming a poorly implemented system.

The only advantage I see of this solution is cost to the tracks (not to be underestimated), but I like cures, not band-aids!

[FenceBored]

So then, we're just band-aiding the system, saying "we can't guarantee the system will shut off bets as soon as the race goes, but trust us that we will get it shut off in less than a minute; therefore, if we shut it off at 1 MTP, it will be closed before the beginning of a race.


It's not a band-aid, it's common sense.

You don't start a race and then turn to the paramutuel dude and say, "did you get the pools closed?" If the integrity of the betting pools are important and the pools aren't closed you don't start the race. The minute buys you time to verify that they closed properly, and cue the starter to proceed. If you can't verify that the pools are closed, you circle the horses, let the jockey's play 'pin the tail on the lead pony', or whatever until you can.

Or, just not allow wagering.:)

[CBedo]

It's not a band-aid, it's common sense.

You don't start a race and then turn to the paramutuel dude and say, "did you get the pools closed?" If the integrity of the betting pools are important and the pools aren't closed you don't start the race. The minute buys you time to verify that they closed properly, and cue the starter to proceed. If you can't verify that the pools are closed, you circle the horses, let the jockey's play 'pin the tail on the lead pony', or whatever until you can.

Or, just not allow wagering.:)
So basically, you're saying that we need another step (check to see if pools are closed) in the process, and that it doesn't make sense to do that when the horses are already loaded. If I'm reading that right, I'll buy that argument, but it's still just patching a screwed up system (why can we check to see if the pools are closed....but not be able to close them?).

[Hajck Hillstrom]

If we permit them to NOT upgrade their systems, what else, as bettors, are we going to permit?:lol: :lol: :lol:

.... he asked while waiting on line at the parimutuel window.....

[Greyfox]

Who determines when it is 1 minute to post?

When exactly is it 1 minute to post?

[PaceAdvantage]

The tote board? When it says "1mtp". As soon as the 2 switches to a 1, the windows close...

I say make it 0mtp...that still leaves plenty of time before the horses actually break from the gate (except in NY...lol)

[kuusinen27]

Windows should remain open but no very large bets that create
odds swings should be allowed. An insider who wants to bet in
thousands should not be able to do it at postime.

[David-LV]

Why don't we just elimitate all pari-mutual betting and just watch racing for the sport of it.

That would get rid of all the problems of when to close the windows.:lol: :lol:

_______
David-LV

[Greyfox]

The tote board? When it says "1mtp". As soon as the 2 switches to a 1, the windows close...

I say make it 0mtp...that still leaves plenty of time before the horses actually break from the gate (except in NY...lol)

In the simulcast O.T.B. I've seen the screen say O minutes to post many times at many tracks for periods of several minutes before the gates are loaded.
Seems to me that the track handle would be reduced using the Tote time.

[Cangamble]

In the simulcast O.T.B. I've seen the screen say O minutes to post many times at many tracks for periods of several minutes before the gates are loaded.
Seems to me that the track handle would be reduced using the Tote time.
If you knew that betting stopped at 1 MTP or 0 MTP you would adjust, and every bettor on this planet would adjust.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

CG,

Where did you get the $250 million figure to update the tote technology?

Was it from the incompetent tote companies, or from a competent source?

[Cangamble]

CG,

Where did you get the $250 million figure to update the tote technology?

Was it from the incompetent tote companies, or from a competent source?
I've seen it kicked around in media. I've seen the numbers $100-250 million, but because the track execs always quote the highest number, it means they aren't about to spend a buck.

[thespaah]

I would like betting to close at the moment the gate opens. The technology must exist to make this work.I agre. But there those who see the odds change on the tote board while the race is in progress as a shady deal.
Years ago NYRA used to close the windows once the horses had reached the gate and began loading.
The one minute rule is a bit too cut and dried for me. I think the pools should close once the first horse loads.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I've seen it kicked around in media. I've seen the numbers $100-250 million, but because the track execs always quote the highest number, it means they aren't about to spend a buck.

You are correct....racetracks don't want to spend a quarter.

There is no possible way that a system update would cost even close to $250 million if opened up to bids by competent people/companies.

Instead, we've got a company that has been proven incompetent numerous times (except for their blackmail genius as they obviously have some very revealing photos on the people who hand out the tote contracts), saying that it will cost $250 million when it appears they might not be able to program a PONG game for under $100 million.

[FenceBored]

From Dan Liebman's column in the Bloodhorse this week:

At The Jockey Club Round Table in 1999, Mark Elliott, manager of IBM Global Services, the world’s leading provider of information technology, discussed ways his company could assist Thoroughbred racing. IBM Global Services had been hired by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association to examine the industry’s wagering technology, and Elliott found much that could be improved upon.

However, Elliott saw nothing that could not be fixed, and IBM Global Services offered to invest, through loans to the industry, $100-$200 million that would have been repaid with interest, a percentage of handle from an industry-owned tote system, and bonuses based on both reductions in cost and increases in handle.

-- http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2009/05/27/better-betting-by-dan-liebman.aspx

[lamboguy]

my good buddy billy nader uncoverd the pick six scanadall otherwise those guys would have been getting away with it today. i had spoken with billy on numerous ocasions long before the pick 6 breeders cup scandal was ever dreamt up about the after the bell betting. he was always astounded with it. billy is now in japan. he was at that time the only guy that would listen to you and understood the problem. maybe because he was a bettor, or maybe because he has common sense.

today we have plenty of computer hackers that can get into systems in ways that we can never dream of. how tough is it to get into the mutual pools after the race is run and punch out a $2.00 trifecta or superfecta ticket that the public has no idea about. i don't have that answer, but i would love to know. what i am sure is that if is possible to do, someone or many someones are doing it.

[DanG]

my good buddy billy nader uncoverd the pick six scanadall otherwise those guys would have been getting away with it today. i had spoken with billy on numerous ocasions long before the pick 6 breeders cup scandal was ever dreamt up about the after the bell betting. he was always astounded with it. billy is now in japan. he was at that time the only guy that would listen to you and understood the problem. maybe because he was a bettor, or maybe because he has common sense.

today we have plenty of computer hackers that can get into systems in ways that we can never dream of. how tough is it to get into the mutual pools after the race is run and punch out a $2.00 trifecta or superfecta ticket that the public has no idea about. i don't have that answer, but i would love to know. what i am sure is that if is possible to do, someone or many someones are doing it.
I believe its still Hong Kong for Nadir btw, but your point is well taken and so true.

[lamboguy]

I believe its still Hong Kong for Nadir btw, but your point is well taken and so true.it is hong kong, i mix all those places up. i get mixed up about alot of things lately! lol

[rastajenk]

Punch it out on what?

[Imriledup]

Windows should remain open but no very large bets that create
odds swings should be allowed. An insider who wants to bet in
thousands should not be able to do it at postime.

I thought about this too, why wouldn't this theory work? The most money you can bet when the clock says 1 mtp would be 100 bucks or so. If you want to bet more, you have to bet before 1mtp.

[Warren Henry]

Asking the existing tote companies how much it would cost is ridiculous. They currently have a monopoly/captive audience.

Years ago, I was a freelance programmer. I had a number of clients. Some of them would never consider anyone else but me to work on their systems. Others had each job bid by multiple providers. Want to guess who got the better deals? Human nature.

I had one client who gamed the system. He put his jobs out for bid and then showed the bids to me. He wanted me to do the work, but he tried to put my feet to the fire on each contract.

There are plenty of folks who could do a state of the art tote system. Any company who could develop a state of the art reservation system for hotels or airlines, or a just-in-time inventory system for a major manufacturer with multiple factories and multiple product lines (think auto manufacturers) could do a tote system.

[Robert Fischer]

Asking the existing tote companies how much it would cost is ridiculous. They currently have a monopoly/captive audience.

Years ago, I was a freelance programmer. I had a number of clients. Some of them would never consider anyone else but me to work on their systems. Others had each job bid by multiple providers. Want to guess who got the better deals? Human nature.

I had one client who gamed the system. He put his jobs out for bid and then showed the bids to me. He wanted me to do the work, but he tried to put my feet to the fire on each contract.

There are plenty of folks who could do a state of the art tote system. Any company who could develop a state of the art reservation system for hotels or airlines, or a just-in-time inventory system for a major manufacturer with multiple factories and multiple product lines (think auto manufacturers) could do a tote system.

Great post.

[Robert Fischer]

REFRESHING
The tote has to update faster. (more frequent refresh rate)

ALMOST REAL TIME
Streaming Video delay needs to be minimized at ADWs. (for the benefit of the player)

DIGITAL TIME
The stop-wager signal has to time-stamped, and significant late wagers need to be time stamped (example all last 100 wagers, all "large" wagers last minute, and/or > 10-1payout odds wagers last minute of time flagged)

STRAGGLERS?
Any wagers or cancellations timestamped at greater than a certain difference in time should be flagged. (for example last wager's time was 30 seconds later than the next to last wager.)

DON'T PEE IN THE POOL KID
Some steps must be made to make Pool Manipulation more difficult. (Cancellations greater than a certain amount are flagged, penalties for suspected manipulation such as losing the right to bet another entry in a race with canceled wager greater than x$ )

[rastajenk]

Have any of you ever worked behind a mutuel machine? Here's an idea that's no more crazy than some of the stuff here: gamblers should be licensed, and have to pass a short test on working one before they can bet. :eek:

[Imriledup]

Have any of you ever worked behind a mutuel machine? Here's an idea that's no more crazy than some of the stuff here: gamblers should be licensed, and have to pass a short test on working one before they can bet. :eek:

Huh? What does a gambler working behind a mutuel machine have to do with anything?

[thespaah]

ok..I put up the TVG tote on the computer and did some observing. I used the pools at Belmont.

For the first three races roughly 40% of the win and exacta pools showed up in the numbers with less than one minute to post.
Now that is not to assume all those bets were made with say 90 seconds or less to off time. But the pattern was clear. A large pct of the money showed up in the last two flashes of the tote board.
Here's an example from the first race.
With one minute to post there was $69,418 in the win pool. At the final flash about 30 seconds into the race the final total of $133,866 was displayed a difference of $64,448 or 48%.
For the exacta pool. With one minute to post there was 139,212 in the pool. Again about 30 seconds or so after they went that total increased to $208,501 for a difference of $69,589 or 33%.
What this means to me in the context of this thread is that all things being relative heavy amounts of late money would come in with the one minute or "first to load" cutoff. No less money would be wagered. The sharps and other who wait until the last nano-second to wager will adjust.
The bottom line is always to prevent even the appearance of past posting.

[thespaah]

all employees of racetracks and racong association should be barred from wagering at their employer's racing facilities while on duty. Period. End of story.
Cancellations. This practice must end immediately. All bets should be final once the player presses submit or whichever term is used on their self service machine or if a live teller used once that teller presses the send or whichever button commits the wager.
The exception is if a players horse is declared a late scratch or a non-starter. In which case the player is either offered a refund or as in the case of advance wagers (DD's Pick 3's, 4's and 6's) the post time favorite.
Sorry guys but wagering is a risk.As long as the rules govereniung wagering are followed to ther letter, no one should complain.
All this IMO is to give rock solid integrity to the system.

[rastajenk]

Huh? What does a gambler working behind a mutuel machine have to do with anything?
Not much, but it might cut down on the flow of loony ideas like your hundred dollar max from being floated in topics like this.

[Imriledup]

Not much, but it might cut down on the flow of loony ideas like your hundred dollar max from being floated in topics like this.

So, its a loony idea because you don't agree with it? I think its a good idea personally and see nothing wrong with it. Maybe you can explain, in detail, to me why its a bad idea, i'd love to hear what you have to say on the matter.

[Greyfox]

So, its a loony idea because you don't agree with it? I think its a good idea personally and see nothing wrong with it. Maybe you can explain, in detail, to me why its a bad idea, i'd love to hear what you have to say on the matter.

Nothing wrong with it? Hmm.
So tellers would have to remember how much each player in the last minute was betting. For example, player A buys a $ 30 win ticket. He drops back in 35 seconds and wants another ticket worth $ 75. Oh, oh. "Sorry sir that's over $100 and I can't sell it to you." But that's just player A.
Player B initially buys a $ 60 ticket. The teller would have to remember that he can't buy more than $ 40 more. Or conversely he steps into a second line up and buys a $ 100 ticket and on it goes.
If you can't see what's wrong with the idea, we can't help you.

[Fleur-de-lis]

Forget that one minute to post noise.

Let's make it 5 minutes to post. That way they can get the carrier pigeons out of the coops with plenty of time to spare.

[DanG]

Like most long time players I’ve come to expect very little in regards to change from our fractured industry.

If this 1~MTP cut-off point was tried however and it turned out that we the gamblers couldn’t adjust…shame on us and we deserve our fate of betting in the dark.
http://pmccord.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/one-minute-closer.jpg

[andymays]

We can cut off betting 5 minutes to post.

Then we should not be able to cash tickets for 3 weeks until all the tests have been completed on the top 4 finishers and all challenges to the result are exhausted!

[FenceBored]

The Bloodhorse already has a story up on the Penn National disaster from last night. Communications equipment is again the cause, they say.

The track determined the pools closed 27 to 28 seconds after a race began, Chris McErlean, vice president of racing for track owner Penn National Gaming, said June 6

...

“We’re still waiting on an answer from United Tote,” McErlean said. “A, we’re embarrassed, and B, we’re frustrated. We might discuss closing our pools early, but right now I can’t tell you how early.”

Penn National officials will discuss the situation June 6, and could have a plan in place by the start of the evening’s races. McErlean acknowledged closing pools early—at zero minutes to post or when the first horse is loaded into the gate, for instance—isn’t ideal.

--http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51132/penn-ponders-options-after-second-tote-glitch

[Tom]

Foolproof the system.

Tie the money to the gate - when the gate button is pushed to open it, the acceptance of wagers intot eh system is locked. No more money can be added once thegates open.



Or, just shut off all betting 5 minutes to post.

[BillW]

Foolproof the system.

Tie the money to the gate - when the gate button is pushed to open it, the acceptance of wagers intot eh system is locked. No more money can be added once thegates open.



Or, just shut off all betting 5 minutes to post.

The problem is not the time it takes to shut off betting, it's a failure in the system. When the stop betting signal is supposed to go out, it doesn't. Shutting off betting at one minute to post and having the stop betting signal fail doesn't solve anything. It just allows betting after the one minute to post deadline.

[Tom]

I'm saying let them bet as long as theywant to - stop accepting it when the gate opens. That could be the track. This seems to be a pretty simple problem that a bunch of morons don't want to figrue out.

I hate to say it, but maybe iti time for the governement (:eek: ) tostep and outlaw all off track wagering until the industry proves it can run a clean, honest game.
I think racing night be the only group around that is not as bright as the governement, so meybe they need the help. Iwould support a 6 month ban on all off track wagering if it would lead to a clean honest game afterwards. Let's face it, the industry will never solve its problems - too many morons in charge of it. And they breed!

[jballscalls]

Penn National just announced they will close the pools when the first horse goes in the gate

[Cangamble]

Penn National just announced they will close the pools when the first horse goes in the gate
Effective immediately and until further notice Penn National Race Course will close wagering on all live races as soon as the first horse enters the starting gate.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and assistance with this matter. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
David Koepp
Simulcast Manager
Penn National Gaming, Inc

[Imriledup]

Effective immediately and until further notice Penn National Race Course will close wagering on all live races as soon as the first horse enters the starting gate.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and assistance with this matter. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
David Koepp
Simulcast Manager
Penn National Gaming, Inc


hahahaha!!!!!! what a joke of a track.

[Cangamble]

hahahaha!!!!!! what a joke of a track.
It would be good if every track followed suit now.
At least Penn is admitting it now. How many tracks don't admit it?

[Imriledup]

It would be good if every track followed suit now.
At least Penn is admitting it now. How many tracks don't admit it?

I don't think it would be good if every track followed suit. What would be better is if they figured out a way to not let anyone past post. I know, it sounds complex, but its not really that complex.

[eqitec]

Went to the Finger Lakes yesterday mostly to track live win pool timing to corroborate what I'm seeing on YouBet. It's no different.
For example here is the progressive size of the win pool in the 4th

under 1 min. before post - $4504
going in the gate - $8815
after gate opened - $13,908

That's 2/3 of the win pool action coming in under one minute before post.
That's 1/3 of the win pool action coming after the gate opened.

Only a digitally connected whale could react fast enough to such late changes, which may be cause by other digitally connected whales.

I propose shutting only the whales off 4 minutes to post and giving the bait fish a reasonable chance to survive.

[Tom]

I propose shutting off ALL whales. Period. All bet in to the pools be made on tracks or through and authorized AWD only, No special feed or computer bets allowed.

[Imriledup]

I propose shutting off ALL whales. Period. All bet in to the pools be made on tracks or through and authorized AWD only, No special feed or computer bets allowed.

I agree that no computers should be allowed, but you can't take the whale out of the pond. I feel that anyone should have to either verbalize their bets to a live opertator over the phone, or punch their bets into their computer themselves, if internet betting is their thing.

[Imriledup]

I think that the racing industry has it backwards... The gate does not open and THEN the betting stops. The betting should be completed and all pools locked down before the horses load the gate.

Disagree.

This just lets the industry slide on updating tote systems and technology. This lets the industry off the hook. We need a total overhaul of the system, there's no reason we can't stop betting the split second before the latch springs.

[cj]

Disagree.

This just lets the industry slide on updating tote systems and technology. This lets the industry off the hook. We need a total overhaul of the system, there's no reason we can't stop betting the split second before the latch springs.

There is a reason, money. Since we (bettors) pay for everything, I say we can't afford to pay for an overhaul right now. I'd rather betting close before a horse enters the gate than have takeout raised again.

[raybo]

Personally, I'd be satisfied if the betting was locked out at post time. If the ADWs and others can't get their bets into the pool by then, screw 'em, they'll lose customers who placed wagers in time but got locked out. Would serve them right.

However, if all tracks started locking the pools at post time, pretty soon the ADWs would have to adjust to keep their customers, and they would, or go out of business.

All we need the tracks to do is lock down the pools at post time, no more money in the pools after that time. That means that at 1 minute to post there is exactly 60 seconds left to get all the money in the pool (not when the gate opens but at post time, if that's 3 minutes before the gate opens, so be it), if late money doesn't make it in the pools, tough.

I know, when I was with YouBet several years ago, they would not take wagers after about 45 seconds to post. I made my wagers at 1 minute to post, or there abouts, and only got shut out a few times. That was my fault, not YouBet's.

[comet52]

I don't actually get why this is supposed to be a good idea. Betting closes a minute earlier and this changes what?

[raybo]

I don't actually get why this is supposed to be a good idea. Betting closes a minute earlier and this changes what?

Doesn't change anything unless the tracks lock down the pools at or before the gate opens.

[fmolf]

Doesn't change anything unless the tracks lock down the pools at or before the gate opens.
betting closes at post time but the simulcast signal is put on a 2 or 3 minute tape delay so people cannot past post from home or their local simulcast facility.The feed leaves the track on tape delay so noone can receive it earlier.

[Imriledup]

There is a reason, money. Since we (bettors) pay for everything, I say we can't afford to pay for an overhaul right now. I'd rather betting close before a horse enters the gate than have takeout raised again.

They are going to have to find a way to pay for it themselves.

[Imriledup]

I think that tracks could easily prevent past posting with the current system that's set up but they don't want to. Lets face it, what incentive does a racetrack have to NOT let bettors bet after the start? They get a nice chunk of every dollar wagered, its in their best interests to let as many people bet as late as possible and turn a blind eye.

The only way this stuff is going to stop is if the federal govt steps it in and makes it a crime for a racetrack to let anyone bet after the start.

Its not currently a crime by the racetracks so its in their best interest to keep letting it happen.

[Cangamble]

John Pricci is in agreement with me, and two thirds of the voters here:
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/On-The-Line/comments/07102009-california-step-closer-to-monitoring-wagers-in-real-time/

[cj]

I don't actually get why this is supposed to be a good idea. Betting closes a minute earlier and this changes what?

It changes the fact that people can no longer bet after the gate opens. At the very least, there is a bad perception that there is betting (and we know bets are canceled) after the gate opens.

There have also been several reported instances of betting after the gate opens in the past year. Who knows how many unreported incidents there have been.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

OK...So they shut down betting at 0 MTP or when first horse loads......

What happens when money comes in during race due to the same tote delay/communication delay that happens all the time now even though those bets are made before the new shutoff time?

In other words, what happens when the same old barbaric tote system does the same thing as it is now with just an extra minute or so to cover for it?

[Jeff P]

IMHO the optimal solution is for the industry to be forward thinking and invest in the future: Step up to the plate and obtain a modern secure tote system fast enough to render odds and payoffs in real time.

However I understand that these are tough economic times and that spending money on a new tote system is a tough sell to the industry.

Until they step up to the plate and invest in a modern secure tote system to insure pool integrity... Do the the following... it has the advantage of creating pool integrity at very little cost to the industry:

1- Close wagering early enough to allow ALL pools to be merged and final before the first horse is loaded into the gate. Show a countdown timer graphic on the track video feed. When the countdown reaches 0:00 close all wagering for that race. Merge and finalize all pools. Once all pools are confirmed as merged and final then load the field and run the race. If a problem is encountered in merging the pools, circle the horses behind the gate until the pools are final. This would be similar to the delay we often see before the first race of a large pick-six carryover.

2- Install a "dead man's switch" and have guest site's pools close at the listed post time (to be synchronized with the countdown graphic) unless the tote employee manually keeps betting open. This will prevent past posting when a transmission error occurs... They will still occur - but when they do the horses will still be behind the gate.

3- Put a mechanism into place whereby the pools are reopened for a short 2:00 or 3:00 countdown period in the event of a gate scratch. Simply repeat step 1 above when the new countdown reaches 0:00.




Now, here's what this DOES:

FINAL odds and pool totals can be shown before the race begins, no more changing of odds during the race.

Larcenous use of the cancel delay is eliminated by these changes. Mutuel tellers would still be protected with a 10-15 second cancel delay period. The key element here is that at 0:00 minus 10 seconds the teller could still cancel a wager in the event a mistake is made - but the horses would not be running yet. They would still be circling behind the gate. No more theft through abuse of the cancel delay. Under this plan the field isn't loaded until all pools are merged and final pool totals and odds are posted. And that doesn't take place until AFTER the cancel delay period has closed.

Under this plan bettors can even be alerted before the race if their bets are to be refunded due to failure to merge into the host pools because of a hardware/transmission problem. The kind of stupidity that happened a few weeks ago at PEN becomes a thing of the past.

With appropriate promotion by the industry explaining the purpose and benefit (hint: the importance of pool integrity) after a short adjustment period handle will be driven upward as a result of vastly improved player perception about the integrity of the game... where in fact the improvement in perception is actually justified.


-jp

.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

1- Close wagering early enough to allow ALL pools to be merged and final before the first horse is loaded into the gate. Show a countdown timer graphic on the track video feed. When the countdown reaches 0:00 close all wagering for that race. Merge and finalize all pools. Once all pools are confirmed as merged and final then load the field and run the race. If a problem is encountered in merging the pools, circle the horses behind the gate until the pools are final. This would be similar to the delay we often see before the first race of a large pick-six carryover..

If every track does this, handle would be down so much it would make all the tracks sick that they did this instead of paying for the new tote system.

There will be so much dead/wasted time that handle will be down at least 10%-20% extra added on to the decreases we are already seeing.

The typical horseplayer....makes a bet on a race....watches that race....then looks to see when the next race is going off at another track.

Under this system, the dead time (3-5 minutes it takes to finalize all bets and get the horses ready to load and load them) between the bet and watching the race, will cause many players to miss many races they would normally bet on.....therefore any track that sets their bet closing time 5 minutes ahead of their competition track's closing time, would absolutely crush that track's handle whether they were doing it on purpose or not.

If the typical simulcast/racebook bettor usually bets 6 races an hour using the handicap/bet/watch/look for next race/handicap/bet/watch.....with the added dead time now, he will bet 3, maybe 4 bets per hour.

Pools will be smaller....dead money will be in less pools.....big bettors will bet less......handle loss will snowball.

Would anybody here, if they had a broken fuel gage in their car, fix the problem by keeping a full 2 gallon gas can in the trunk? I certainly hope not.

The tote system needs to be fixed....period. There is no other solution.

[rwwupl]

This tells about Sen. Yee's bill(S/B 662) on oversight from his website:
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Committee Approves Horse Racing Oversight Bill
Wednesday, July 08, 2009
Yee’s bill will provide independent oversight of all pari-mutuel wagers at California horse tracks

SACRAMENTO – The Assembly Governmental Organization Committee today overwhelmingly approved legislation authored by Senator Leland Yee (D-San Francisco/San Mateo) to provide independent oversight of all pari-mutuel horse race wagering in California. Specifically, SB 662 will require the California Horse Racing Board (CHRB) to institute real-time monitoring of all pari-mutuel wagering transactions...

[hue21998]

Alot of the big money goes in at the wire. If you would like smaller pools than go to 1 minute before, or how about 5 minutes before or when they are leaving the padduck. Technology should be able to handle this.

[Bruddah]

If the Industry management wanted a fix, I guarantee, they would allow nothing to stand in the way of fixing the problem. The problem is, Industry management sees the "fix" as a disincentive. (smaller pools). Even if Congress were to hold hearings on this problem, they (Industry mgmt) would tell Congress they were working on the problem and all the 'camera profiling' Congressmen will go their merry way, and the status quo continues to go forward. How many times have we seen that scenario? Answer, To damn many!

The problem will not go away until Industry management sees the "fix" as a solution to shrinking pools and not a cause for pools to shrink. This won't happen until the bettors say enough and withold their betting dollars. Then and only then will the Industry react. Until then, their will be no fixes and the bettors will continue to be like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

A wiser person than I said it correctly thousands of years ago, "Money is the root of all evil" and pari mutual problems in horse racing. :D

[Java Gold@TFT]

A few years back at Saratoga I wanted to bet Birdstone in the Travers with a couple of exactas after seeing him in the paddock. I never heard the annoncement that they had moved up post time due to an immenent thunderstorm. They also cut the post parade and basically loaded the horses in the gate 4-5 minutes before scheduled post. NYRA estimated about a $1M loss in handle after the fiasco and having to cancel the last race when the storm hit.

Basically tracks don't want to take the handle loss by changing betting cutoff times.

[cj]

Alot of the big money goes in at the wire. If you would like smaller pools than go to 1 minute before, or how about 5 minutes before or when they are leaving the padduck. Technology should be able to handle this.

If they want bigger pools, just wait til 30 seconds after post, or a minute, or how about after the finish. Oh wait, this has already happened SEVERAL times.

[Fleur-de-lis]

Stopping wagers at x-minutes to post is idiotic. Why are gamblers being punished?

[Cangamble]

Bettors will adjust. For the small percentage of players who actually wait for horses to load into the gate to bet, more and more players are turned off by the perception of past posting.

Also, if someone gets shut out, and people will always get shut out, and they still do regardless, they can always lay their money in the next race instead, as usually happens. Or if they are betting multiple tracks, they can bet one of 10 tracks going off within the next 20 minutes.

[comet52]

You're gonna need something a lot more solid than the "perception" of past posting to make this happen. At least in the clubby industry that you're dealing with.

Personally I think it's a dumb idea. If the tote tech were updated, there wouldn't be a significant delay. Then an odds drop after a period of time would be cause for a genuine investigation. Jiggering the end time of bets is just monkey business piled on top of monkey business, imho. Especially looking at the tortured constructs that some people here are proposing. K.I.S.S. :bang:

[Cangamble]

You're gonna need something a lot more solid than the "perception" of past posting to make this happen. At least in the clubby industry that you're dealing with.


What happened at Hollywood Park and Penn twice recently is more solid than perception. And there is no reason to believe that just because those three were made public, it doesn't happen a lot more than you think.
I think it might be like cockroaches, you see one on the floor, and you know there are a thousand or so in the walls.

[rwwupl]

This tells about Sen. Yee's bill(S/B 662) on oversight from his website:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.senate.ca.gov/yee
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Committee Approves Horse Racing Oversight Bill
Wednesday, July 08, 2009
Yee’s bill will provide independent oversight of all pari-mutuel wagers at California horse tracks

SACRAMENTO – The Assembly Governmental Organization Committee today overwhelmingly approved legislation authored by Senator Leland Yee (D-San Francisco/San Mateo) to provide independent oversight of all pari-mutuel horse race wagering in California. Specifically, SB 662 will require the California Horse Racing Board (CHRB) to institute real-time monitoring of all pari-mutuel wagering transactions.

...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Also ,take note that Adam was on the Roger Stein Show Saturday 7-11-09 and is available on archives,(First 20 min.)-- also find out who opposes this Bill S/B662 later in the show, They call themselves the "Alliance"-- hint, watch your car in the parking lot.

http://www.rogerstein.com/

[senortout]

And even a big, count down clock would fail in some cases...for instance if you are watching via dish satellite, the video and audio are noticeably delayed by the time it takes the signal to be uploaded to the satellite and beamed back downward to the customers dishes!......I'm sure most of you have experienced this at home when perhaps you were watching a network show on a rabbit ear in one room and have the same show on your dish on the big tv in the living room?

senortout

[Cangamble]

And even a big, count down clock would fail in some cases...for instance if you are watching via dish satellite, the video and audio are noticeably delayed by the time it takes the signal to be uploaded to the satellite and beamed back downward to the customers dishes!......I'm sure most of you have experienced this at home when perhaps you were watching a network show on a rabbit ear in one room and have the same show on your dish on the big tv in the living room?

senortout
It won't fail on the internet. You'll have a countdown going for you at your favorite ADW.
And still, if you are still uncomfortable with the satellite delay, your bet will be in long before the countdown minute.

[BillW]

And even a big, count down clock would fail in some cases...for instance if you are watching via dish satellite, the video and audio are noticeably delayed by the time it takes the signal to be uploaded to the satellite and beamed back downward to the customers dishes!......I'm sure most of you have experienced this at home when perhaps you were watching a network show on a rabbit ear in one room and have the same show on your dish on the big tv in the living room?

senortout

That same delay is in effect now :confused:

[raybo]

This is exactly what I said in my previous post. ADWs, simulcast facilities, and bettors will adjust in order to get their money in the pools.

All that needs to happen is for the tracks to lock the pools at post time or when the 1st horse enters the gate, whatever.

There may be a temporary decrease in handle because players/wagering facilities have not adjusted to the new format, but that will change rather quickly. When wagering facilities realize that they need 45 seconds or so, in order to get the money in the pools before the pools are locked, they will adjust. When players realize that they need to place their wagers by 45 seconds to 1 minute to post, in order to get their wagers into the track pools, they will adjust.

[sjk]

This has all been done before. It certainly cost me bets when I had to be earlier.

If you are in the routine of betting the race when you think you need to in order to not get shut out and then watching the race each race now takes a couple more minutes and I was getting shut out at other tracks.

You don't realize how much time goes into getting the horses in the gate until they do this.

Perhaps they should take a poll among the people who were betting the races the last time they did this and see if they were glad it went away.

[Cangamble]

This has all been done before. It certainly cost me bets when I had to be earlier.

If you are in the routine of betting the race when you think you need to in order to not get shut out and then watching the race each race now takes a couple more minutes and I was getting shut out at other tracks.

You don't realize how much time goes into getting the horses in the gate until they do this.

Perhaps they should take a poll among the people who were betting the races the last time they did this and see if they were glad it went away.
We could also poll the people who left or are thinking of leaving. And maybe we can do a poll of how much people bet less to win because they fear odd fluctuations.

My point is that big bettors with an opinion will not get shut out. And the $2 bettors and average bettors will all adjust, just like we do with football games.

[BillW]

This has all been done before. It certainly cost me bets when I had to be earlier.



Steve,

The only thing that's been done before is shut the pools down early which by itself is nothing but a cosmetic glossing over of the problem. What hasn't been done before is implementing a process by which the pools will be required to be merged and final before the race goes off (as Jeff suggests above). This is the key to any short term fix. Of course the long term fix is obvious (and implement the same requirement only more seamlessly with the use of a more modern system), but expensive and takes a lot of time.

[DeanT]

It was only done at a few venues for a short period of time as well. It is pretty difficult to get proper metrics with that. Doing it for six months or a year, right across racing would be the only way to figure out its impact, imo.

[lamboguy]

maybe they should leave it on for 10 minutes after the race is over so that the people that have poor eyesight get a better look at what happened.

[cj]

It was only done at a few venues for a short period of time as well. It is pretty difficult to get proper metrics with that. Doing it for six months or a year, right across racing would be the only way to figure out its impact, imo.

Exactly, as with most things in racing, there was no consistency. It was done at some tracks, and not at others. At the ones where it was done, the rules were all different. Of course people couldn't figure it out.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

It was only done at a few venues for a short period of time as well. It is pretty difficult to get proper metrics with that. Doing it for six months or a year, right across racing would be the only way to figure out its impact, imo.

I have no idea how anybody can not see that this would be a disaster for handle.

If we had 1 circuit running, like Hong Kong, it would not be a problem to change the betting off times.

With 90%+ of the money bet offtrack and 20 different tracks racing at the same time, it would be a disaster.

There are only so many minutes in an hour and if you waste 15 of those with dead time where it takes away betting time/opportunity, it will hurt handle.

If I could get 12 races an hour all 5 minutes apart, I would bet at least double what I bet now. Because of all the overlaps, I can only do so much. Now throw in the added dead time with this nonsense, and my handle will go down even more due to time issues and also smaller pools.

[DeanT]

it's a biz where tracks can not even decide how to post probables on the screens - some with $1 payouts and some with $2, and they do not even tend to tell us which is which in the graphic. Getting them to all to close a betting window at the same time is a pretty big task.

[Cangamble]

I have no idea how anybody can not see that this would be a disaster for handle.

If we had 1 circuit running, like Hong Kong, it would not be a problem to change the betting off times.

With 90%+ of the money bet offtrack and 20 different tracks racing at the same time, it would be a disaster.

There are only so many minutes in an hour and if you waste 15 of those with dead time where it takes away betting time/opportunity, it will hurt handle.

If I could get 12 races an hour all 5 minutes apart, I would bet at least double what I bet now. Because of all the overlaps, I can only do so much. Now throw in the added dead time with this nonsense, and my handle will go down even more due to time issues and also smaller pools.
Do you think handles with bookies who take bets on the phone would go up if they took action right up until the kick off?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Do you think handles with bookies who take bets on the phone would go up if they took action right up until the kick off?

I don't know what you are asking.

If you are talking about football.....

There are many online shops and bookies that take wagering after kickoff because they have every game on directTV/network TV and will only stop betting on it once something significant happens.

[Cangamble]

I don't know what you are asking.

If you are talking about football.....

There are many online shops and bookies that take wagering after kickoff because they have every game on directTV/network TV and will only stop betting on it once something significant happens.
I'm saying that people adjust and that those who use bookies to phone in bets with don't get shut out because they know they have to get it in by 1 PM usually for early games.

[DeanT]

I have no idea how anybody can not see that this would be a disaster for handle.

If we had 1 circuit running, like Hong Kong, it would not be a problem to change the betting off times.

With 90%+ of the money bet offtrack and 20 different tracks racing at the same time, it would be a disaster.

There are only so many minutes in an hour and if you waste 15 of those with dead time where it takes away betting time/opportunity, it will hurt handle.

If I could get 12 races an hour all 5 minutes apart, I would bet at least double what I bet now. Because of all the overlaps, I can only do so much. Now throw in the added dead time with this nonsense, and my handle will go down even more due to time issues and also smaller pools.

Marshall Gramm did a study about too many races going off at the same time, and lack of scheduling on Saturday's which exacerbates the problem. There are may reasons for not having optimum handle. The hodge podge we currently see is certainly one of the reasons.

It is pretty obvious that you would be right in your assertion as the game is presently presented. If we have less time between races, less people can bet them.

However, with some proactive thinking and some change, this can be changed, imo.

1. Conditional wagering is being widely adopted. With hard stops this will be embraced even more.

2. Having a clock on every screen, in large font on when stop betting occurs will allow a change in behavior. I dont know about you, but I miss post times often because I have no idea if 1 min to post is a minute or four minutes. If I see a countdown clock on two screens, one with 3:30 and one with 1:40 I will know which one to bet, and I will change my behavior to get my bets in. This would be a godsend to me, as I play up to 7 tracks at the same time.

3. Betfair has worked a clock for UK racing for several years. It gives a player, even if they do not have UK racing on a TV screen, a good idea when they can get their bets in. People get them in there, and are doing fine with a hard stop. They have changed their behavior.

Will it work? I have no idea, but with handle falling, ridiculous situations like in So cal and Penn National, the status quo is clearly not an option, imo.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I'm saying that people adjust and that those who use bookies to phone in bets with don't get shut out because they know they have to get it in by 1 PM usually for early games.

I don't possibly know how you are trying to compare 7 football games going off at a time that was known months in advance with the mayhem of horse racing.

I've never called in or gone to the window and made 30 different bets on one football game. I do on a horse race all the time.

[raybo]

I have no idea how anybody can not see that this would be a disaster for handle.

If we had 1 circuit running, like Hong Kong, it would not be a problem to change the betting off times.

With 90%+ of the money bet offtrack and 20 different tracks racing at the same time, it would be a disaster.

There are only so many minutes in an hour and if you waste 15 of those with dead time where it takes away betting time/opportunity, it will hurt handle.

If I could get 12 races an hour all 5 minutes apart, I would bet at least double what I bet now. Because of all the overlaps, I can only do so much. Now throw in the added dead time with this nonsense, and my handle will go down even more due to time issues and also smaller pools.

So, it is your suggestion to just leave the pools open until after the race has begun? That's the problem now.

Close the pools no later than the opening of the gates (that's common sense not rocket science), would that work for you?

The tech problems are not going to be fixed any time in the foreseeable future. The next best thing is to lock the pools at some specific point, but, not after the gate has opened. Even then there will be odds drop after the race has begun (at ADWs and simulcast facilities due to lag), I'm sure, but there will not be any post-gate-opening money hitting the pools after the race has started, which would be a huge improvement, IMO.

This is do-able, but, all tracks must implement it or the problem will still exist, albeit, on a smaller scale.

[sjk]

What some of us are trying to say is that if you bet a lot of races (and you would think the concerns of that group would be of interest) closing the windows early has a real impact on the number of races that you can bet unless you are willing to forgo watching the races you have bet on and that would take away enjoyment from the whole experience.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

So, it is your suggestion to just leave the pools open until after the race has begun?

My only suggestion is to get a new tote system....period.

I am just pointing out that the dirty band-aid being proposed to "fix" the problem will cause infection which will be a much worse option.

[DeanT]

What some of us are trying to say is that if you bet a lot of races (and you would think the concerns of that group would be of interest) closing the windows early has a real impact on the number of races that you can bet unless you are willing to forgo watching the races you have bet on and that would take away enjoyment from the whole experience.

I understand that. But think a year down the road. You walk into a teletheater and each race has a LCD clock over the screen with a countdown. You can see and plan your betting on hard stops. In addition, if this works across racing four big tracks can get together and work the hard stops so races go off every seven minutes. You can bet your race, watch your race, cash and still have a few minutes to get your bet in on the next big track.

This is what has been done in the UK. They have races going off with hard stops at a prescribed time. I know people that play there and get more bets in because of this, not less.

Is now what you really want? A post time listed on the form which goes off nowhere near it? Tote cancel delays? Seeing a horse you bet at 5-2 be 7-5 at the half, wondering if someone got an edge by betting the speed horse off the break, or someones cancelled their tickets when their horse broke bad due to the bet cancel delay? Penn National canceling wagers because the pools did not close? There has to be a better way. And the better way of spending $200M on new technology has absolutely zero chance to get done this decade. Why cant we try something in the meantime?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

However, with some proactive thinking and some change, this can be changed, imo.

1. Conditional wagering is being widely adopted. With hard stops this will be embraced even more.

So basically, we shouldn't worry about all gimmick wagers (about 70% of all handle).

2. Having a clock on every screen, in large font on when stop betting occurs will allow a change in behavior. I dont know about you, but I miss post times often because I have no idea if 1 min to post is a minute or four minutes. If I see a countdown clock on two screens, one with 3:30 and one with 1:40 I will know which one to bet, and I will change my behavior to get my bets in. This would be a godsend to me, as I play up to 7 tracks at the same time.

I don't even know what to say about this one

3. Betfair has worked a clock for UK racing for several years. It gives a player, even if they do not have UK racing on a TV screen, a good idea when they can get their bets in. People get them in there, and are doing fine with a hard stop. They have changed their behavior.

Betfair needs someone who shuts off their races to have a clock. The other day at Hol, one of the races was shut off as the horses were entering the far turn. Late shutoffs are commonplace.



ITP

[FenceBored]

What some of us are trying to say is that if you bet a lot of races (and you would think the concerns of that group would be of interest) closing the windows early has a real impact on the number of races that you can bet unless you are willing to forgo watching the races you have bet on and that would take away enjoyment from the whole experience.

Why, if they all close the same amount of time ahead of gate opening? You place your bet at track A, look away to track B to make your final selection, glance at track C to see where they're at, look back to track A to watch the race, bet track B, look away to track C to make your final selection, etc.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

We all know the current system sucks. Nobody is arguing that it doesn't.

[HuggingTheRail]

I dont know the answer to this, but does any foreign racing use a different tote shut off system than North America (besides of course, bookies)??

(I know Australia doesnt unload when there is a gate scratch, unless they need to for safety reasons - maybe they close their tote early, so there's no need to load/unload?)

[DeanT]

PS: For the folks who want racing to invest in new tote technology I do too of course. But for a shot of reality:
According to an article in today's New York Times, New York state is not testing harness horses for anabolic steroids or conducting regular testing for "milkshakes" due to financing issues.

In early May, a $10 fee was imposed on horse owners for each horse that races in New York, which is intended to raise $1 million annually for the program in addition to a $4 million annual contribution made by the state.

Dr. Michael I. Kotlikoff, Dean of the College of Veterinary Medicine at Cornell University that conducts the testing, says the program is underfinanced as the college is using that money to recoup costs incurred by the program in the past years. He also told the New York Times that the situation could get worse if the testing facilities are shut down due to disrepair.



New York has probably received well over $1B in slots subsidies and they can not even keep their testing going. The chances of them putting $200M into tote technology is about equal to us betting our next race from a teletheater on Mars.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Dean,

Nobody is arguing that racing doesn't want to/won't put up the $200 million to do it.

What I am saying is that handle will be off at a bare minimum 1 billion per year, probably 2 billion, if they do the band-aid method proposed.

[DeanT]

What I am saying is that handle will be off at a bare minimum 1 billion per year, probably 2 billion, if they do the band-aid method proposed.

You could very well be correct. If it is done without some forethought I bet 100% it would.

Do you see a proactive way to change things that might work? The HANA folks have been looking into integrity and stuff like this trying to speak to as many people as we can to formulate a plan. Any help is appreciated.

[Cangamble]

Dean,

Nobody is arguing that racing doesn't want to/won't put up the $200 million to do it.

What I am saying is that handle will be off at a bare minimum 1 billion per year, probably 2 billion, if they do the band-aid method proposed.
That is nonsensical. Are you saying no one will adjust? Everyone will. How much does closing the windows when they do right now when the bell goes when the gate opens cost the industry in handle? I tell you. Nothing. All it does it let players last longer. If they get shut out one race, they'll bet more the next or last a few extra races before they take a break like we all do.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Do you see a proactive way to change things that might work?

No....None

To close all pools and wait until they are all reported will cause massive time delays.....plus you have numerous people to go through before you can tell starter to load.....each of these take up time......I have no answer for loss of time.

You would need "scheduling czar" to have control over off times for all tracks........this would never happen or ever work.

Anything but an actual new tote system would just be a failure of epic proportions.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

That is nonsensical.

Yes it is. I'm a dolt.

Every track that has tried the shutoff early has gotten fractured way worse than the 7.5% handle drop that 1 billion would be.

I guess if every track does it, there will be no dropoff. Sounds logical.

I'm sure that I'm missing something (time fairy, human nature shift etc) and am in a fog about this stuff as usual.

[Cangamble]

Yes it is. I'm a dolt.

Every track that has tried the shutoff early has gotten fractured way worse than the 7.5% handle drop that 1 billion would be.

I guess if every track does it, there will be no dropoff. Sounds logical.

I'm sure that I'm missing something (time fairy, human nature shift etc) and am in a fog about this stuff as usual.
Again, you are missing my other points. I'm talking total handle. It is the same premise that lower takeouts will increase handle eventually.

Also, when only a few tracks shut off early, it will have an affect on those tracks because players will either avoid those tracks given a choice or bet back the money they got shut off with at another venue.

There is no way handle will drop if racing adopts this ruling. No chance.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

There is no way handle will drop if racing adopts this ruling. No chance.

Well mine would drop off at a minimum of 25% and probably much more.

[ryesteve]

Well mine would drop off at a minimum of 25% and probably much more.Are you saying that much of your decision-making is dependent on how the horses load into the gate??

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Well mine would drop off at a minimum of 25% and probably much more.

Actually the more I think about it, it would be much more.

25% was just based on time considerations.

I wouldn't make the numerous bets I make per day when I see a fav that looks horrible either walking to the gate or behind the gate.

I would be betting with extreme caution for a long while trying to gauge what I can still bet because a lot of my bets are pool sensitive.

On a Mon night, if Mountaineer is 5 minutes to post and Ind is 9 minutes to post, I wouldn't even bother looking at Ind because I know that their pool will be way down due to the Mnr race finishing just as Ind is shutting off betting will kill thier handle.

[Cangamble]

Well mine would drop off at a minimum of 25% and probably much more.
Well then my betting would be up around 33% because sharpies like you wouldn't be betting with your edge when the horses load into the gate:)

[raybo]

I understand that. But think a year down the road. You walk into a teletheater and each race has a LCD clock over the screen with a countdown. You can see and plan your betting on hard stops. In addition, if this works across racing four big tracks can get together and work the hard stops so races go off every seven minutes. You can bet your race, watch your race, cash and still have a few minutes to get your bet in on the next big track.

This is what has been done in the UK. They have races going off with hard stops at a prescribed time. I know people that play there and get more bets in because of this, not less.

Is now what you really want? A post time listed on the form which goes off nowhere near it? Tote cancel delays? Seeing a horse you bet at 5-2 be 7-5 at the half, wondering if someone got an edge by betting the speed horse off the break, or someones cancelled their tickets when their horse broke bad due to the bet cancel delay? Penn National canceling wagers because the pools did not close? There has to be a better way. And the better way of spending $200M on new technology has absolutely zero chance to get done this decade. Why cant we try something in the meantime?

Exactly!!

[bettheoverlay]

Interesting thread, but I missed seeing proposals on how you are going to get this change accomplished. A National Racing Czar? An act of Congress? Won't all tracks, or at least all major tracks, have to agree to make this change -together?

[rwwupl]

I thought this column by John Pricci fit in with this discussion. It is from his Horserace Insider Blog.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line

He is asking for your help and vote, He will write to racing managers about the results.

There are 38 comments and votes as of this writing.

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Sunday, July 12, 2009


If You Have a Minute, We Need Your Help

SARATOGA SPRINGS, NY, July 11, 2009--We've been trying to take the temperature of the betting public on the idea of closing betting windows at post time to stop the perception that past posting is something that happens routinely. In fact, it does not. The rest of this piece tells that story. But we'd love your input, and so might track executives. So, please, just an up and down vote in the comment section is all that's necessary. Thank you.

There’s been some progress made in the area of wagering integrity as it relates to programming glitches, late-odds drops, and failure to close pools in a timely manner that can result in past posting. In the state of California, anyway.

After getting approval by the State Senate in May on SB 662, legislation authored Senator Leland Yee (D-San Francisco/San Mateo), the bill received overwhelming endorsement from the Assembly Governmental Organization Committee to provide independent oversight of all parimutuel horse race wagering in the state.

The rest at the link above....

[LottaKash]

I thought this column by John Pricci fit in with this discussion. It is from his Horserace Insider Blog.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line

He is asking for your help and vote, He will write to racing managers about the results.

There are 38 comments and votes as of this writing.

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Comments (38)

Thanks for the heads-up RWWUPL...Been there and said my piece....It is good that many other invested parties have been energised lately, and are taking steps to have their voices be heard....

best,

[Cangamble]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/07152009-players-take-sensible-approach-to-odds-drop-issue/#comments

[LottaKash]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/07152009-players-take-sensible-approach-to-odds-drop-issue/#comments

Thx, Cangamble....I admire your unceasing tenacity in these matters....:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

best,

[FenceBored]

Can I get a 'poll close.'

And who's this Cangamble dude, sounds like a poor man's Horseplayersbet.com to me. ;)

[lamboguy]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/07152009-players-take-sensible-approach-to-odds-drop-issue/#commentsi am glad this came up again so i got to read this article. i like whobet's idea of having pools close at different times. if they can do the futures bets that way for the kentucky derby, they can do it the same way for these. the only problem that could come up would be horses that scratch late for whatever reason.