Zenyatta; Why is there no talk of this..

[Cadillakin]

I've never seen anything like it... A horse who trails the field every single time but is seemingly invulnerable to unfavorable pace circumstances...

When Zenyatta debuted, she broke behind her field (as she always does) in the 6.5 furlong race.. but shortly after leaving the 1/8th pole she was taking command. Final time in the low 1:15 range. In 5.5 furlongs, after leaving behind her field, she made up all the ground, and was in command.. Whoa.. This is not a closer, but a horse of devastating speed.. exhibited NOT from the front of the field, but from the back..

When she shipped East to run on the dirt in the Apple Blossom, we, those who thought she was great, worried about her lack of seasoning.. It was just her 4th race, she was shipping to a strange track, and facing last years champion. At the 3/4 pole, the announcer assures the pace is moderate but Zenyatta is way back, perhaps unconcerned.. At the 3/8ths, she is seemingly beaten and it reflects in the call that she has yet to move. Then, in a manner of seconds, while not always in good view of the camera, she is flying and soon competing for the lead, hitting the front at the 1/8th pole and gearing down in the last 100 yards. (Youtube has the replay)

At the end of her campaign, 5 races and many months later, in the Breeders Cup Distaff, facing the best in the world, she runs 6 wide on the curve, and from her trailing position at the 3/8ths, she hits the lead at the furlong marker, running that quarter in approximately 22.2. Who else in modern racing unleashes runs like this in the last part of their races? She did it once again in the Milady on Saturday, a 22.1 quarter mile from the 3/8ths to the furlong marker, racing wide with ears pricked... That is not the speed of a router.. or a horse that takes advantage of tiring horses.. It is the speed of a sprinter..

When I saw Miesque, one of, if not the best turf miler of the modern era, run through the stretch in 22+ seconds, I was in awe.. but she did it mainly on the straight.. Zenyatta is doing it on the turn - while racing wide.

Though Zenyatta has broken last in every race.. and continued last past the half (in all but one) she has been on the lead at the stretch call in 6 of her 10 races.. second in two others, and in traffic, one other time.

Show me another horse of any era who raced/races at the highest class that runs faster than she on that last turn to the stretch call. IF YOU CAN..

I do not pose this so much as a challenge - because I'm fairly sure there is nothing to be found... but more to open the eyes of those who think final time is the supreme and only arbiter of greatness..

[Imriledup]

Awesome post.

When Zenyatta ran at Oaklawn i made one of my biggest lifetime bets on her in that race. I gave her out to every single person i knew and told THEM to bet everything they had.

I agree with you, it just doesn't seem to matter how slow the pace is, she makes this move, stacks 50 wide and mows them all down in hand.

If she would have run in the BC Classic last year, i was prepared to beg, borrow and steal to bet her vs those. I still, to this day, have no doubt she would have crushed them. (getting 5 lbs as the non favorite)

[Imriledup]

Unfortunately for the racing fans, Zenyatta's owners won't ever race her against real competition. She won't face Rachel and she won't run against the boys.

Its sad, we will never know. She'll retire undefeated and there will always be the question of why she ducked average males (California older male division isn't what it used to be) if she was an all time great.

Einstein won the SA Hcp in March and he beat a horse named Cause in that race. While Cause finished 11th, he was only beaten by 10 lengths. Cause is like a 50k claimer. Here are the horses Einstein beat, have you ever heard of any of them?

Heroi Do Bafra is another horse, he ran today at Hollywood in an allowance race and was uncompetitive, losing to a 20-1 shot that showed nothing on paper.

[Cadillakin]

Unfortunately for the racing fans, Zenyatta's owners won't ever race her against real competition. She won't face Rachel and she won't run against the boys.

Its sad, we will never know. She'll retire undefeated and there will always be the question of why she ducked average males (California older male division isn't what it used to be) if she was an all time great.

I have to admit that your posting struck me as funny.. Running in the Breeders Cup against the best in the world is now ducking competition... Where in the world did you get the idea that Zenyatta wont face Rachel Alexandra? As of right now, Rachel is running with her own age group and Zenyatta can't race with her.. Rachel would have to step into Zenyatta's domain and race with the older mares..

Flatly; You are wrong about Zenyatta's owners ducking competition.. Jerry Moss is a sportsman in the best sense of the word.. He has made it very clear.. Zenyatta runs because he wants others to see her and share his and his wife's enjoyment.. He is not protecting her or shielding her from competion, he is sharing her with us..

And lastly, I find nothing odd about scratching a top class horse when a track comes up wet and slippery. Zenyatta is a big mare and putting her on uncertain footing probably is not in her best interests.

[lamboguy]

first of all she is that good. secondly, why is that no one gives her trainer all the credit he deserves for this accomplishment. the guy does not take any chances with her, he won't run of a bad surface, and certainly won't run unless he feels she is 110% going into the race. john sherreffs knows her better than anyone.

its certainly pretty interesting how the 2 best horses are females right now. i guess you can make an arguement for Eistein, but rachel and zenyatta sure provide the excitement in the horse racing world these days.

if team rachel decide to run her in the belmont, she will be a great bet there. no filly has has ever won 2 legs of the tripple crown. i think that even as good as mine that bird is that if she is in the belmont, she will run him off his feet. if she is out he will probably win the race no matter which jockey rides him!

[JustRalph]

for once I would like to see her run full blast..........

I don't think she has ever really run to her top speed

[Stevie Belmont]

No doubt she is a spectacular horse...

[Rapid Grey]

Once a streak reaches double digits it becomes more of a case of maintaiining it rather than facing new challenges.

Guess they just want her to be the best artificial surface racing mare ever.

[JustRalph]

Once a streak reaches double digits it becomes more of a case of maintaiining it rather than facing new challenges.

Guess they just want her to be the best artificial surface racing mare ever.

In California that could make her and her offspring incredibly valuable.........for the foreseeable future

[Tom]

I want to see how her late run does on dirt.
If she sits 10 off Rachael on dirt, I don't think she will be able to catch her.

[Nikki1997]

I want to see how her late run does on dirt.
If she sits 10 off Rachael on dirt, I don't think she will be able to catch her.

You may have seen this already, but this is the '08 Apple Blossom on dirt at Oaklawn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9171jxrlE

[Cadillakin]

I want to see how her late run does on dirt.
If she sits 10 off Rachael on dirt, I don't think she will be able to catch her.
As I noted, she already spotted a champion many lengths in the Apple Blossom, on dirt, in just her 4th race. How many times does she have to run on dirt to prove that she can run on dirt?

But I do agree, she may not be able to do that with Rachel..

With the exception of Rachel Alexandra, it is my opinion that the 3 year old crop is very poor.. so until I can validate Rachel against something I know can run, I'll reserve my judgment about her class and the way she fits. Her numbers are good, but nothing that Zenyatta can't handle...Calvin Borel says she is the best horse he has ever ridden.. and that has bearing for me. But even that's a slippery slope. The great Charlie Whittingham stated Ack Ack was the best horse he trained, bar none. But Bill Shoemaker seemed frustrated with the fact Ack Ack would not properly change leads, so he never mentioned him with the same respect. As we all know, everybody has an opinion.

We will know more in a few months.. but I'm pretty sure Rachel hasn't beaten a good horse to this point.. On the other hand, Zenyatta bested Cocoa Beach. IMO, a mare of championship caliber. Her trainer, Saeed bin Suroor who has trained some great horses, is/was of the same opinion. Carriage Trail, Music Note, Hysterical Lady and even Santa Teresita and Ginger Punch, who were both buried, are highly credentialed horses..

Also, do note that we have not seen anywhere close to the bottom of Zenyatta. With one exception, when Mike Smith inexplicably started a run at the 5 furlong pole, and Zenyatta was struggling in the lane, Zenyatta has done everything well-within herself.. In fact, by the time she hits the 1/16th pole, she seems to be consciously showing us how easily she is winning...

[Rapid Grey]

In California that could make her and her offspring incredibly valuable.........for the foreseeable future

Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra could never win another race and their value as broodmares would remain the same. Neither has anything left to prove in my book.

However, one will likely close out her career with the path of least resistance facing short fields at her optimum racing distance, the other will continue to take on new challenges, surfaces and distances, all to the benefit of the game.

[46zilzal]

Choosing spots carefully is what keeps them running at the top end. It is akin to a savvy boxing manager: keep your fighter where he has the best chance to look good.

I have seen so many good ones mismanaged when their career and potential would have been otherwise.

This one is both talented and in good hands.

[Imriledup]

As I noted, she already spotted a champion many lengths in the Apple Blossom, on dirt, in just her 4th race. How many times does she have to run on dirt to prove that she can run on dirt?

But I do agree, she may not be able to do that with Rachel..

With the exception of Rachel Alexandra, it is my opinion that the 3 year old crop is very poor.. so until I can validate Rachel against something I know can run, I'll reserve my judgment about her class and the way she fits. Her numbers are good, but nothing that Zenyatta can't handle...Calvin Borel says she is the best horse he has ever ridden.. and that has bearing for me. But even that's a slippery slope. The great Charlie Whittingham stated Ack Ack was the best horse he trained, bar none. But Bill Shoemaker seemed frustrated with the fact Ack Ack would not properly change leads, so he never mentioned him with the same respect. As we all know, everybody has an opinion.

We will know more in a few months.. but I'm pretty sure Rachel hasn't beaten a good horse to this point.. On the other hand, Zenyatta bested Cocoa Beach. IMO, a mare of championship caliber. Her trainer, Saeed bin Suroor who has trained some great horses, is/was of the same opinion. Carriage Trail, Music Note, Hysterical Lady and even Santa Teresita and Ginger Punch, who were both buried, are highly credentialed horses..

Also, do note that we have not seen anywhere close to the bottom of Zenyatta. With one exception, when Mike Smith inexplicably started a run at the 5 furlong pole, and Zenyatta was struggling in the lane, Zenyatta has done everything well-within herself.. In fact, by the time she hits the 1/16th pole, she seems to be consciously showing us how easily she is winning...

Rachel beat a horse who won the Ky Derby by a large margin. A Male. As far as the Apple Blossom goes, the Lady horse just threw in a clunker, that was a 'non performance'. We're giving Zenyatta credit for beating her, she would have lost to a 10 claimer that day, she was sick or hurt or something in that race.

No one is saying Zenyatta isn't spectacular, but in order to be whispered as an all time great filly/mare, you have to beat the boys. That's just the way it is, i don't make up the rules.

If Mine that Bird or Musket Man raced Santa Teresita or Model, it wouldn't even be a race.

Gamblers thought that Life is Sweet had a serious chance to beat Zen. LIS has one Beyer fig in her career of over 100. Most of her numbers are less than 100 and she was given serious consideration to be able to beat Zenyatta. I think she was 3-1 or something like that at the end of the betting.

One last thing. Rachel has only had 2 real races where she had the chance to 'beat someone important'. The Oaks and the Preakness. People are saying she beat 'nobody' in the Oaks, but you really can't say that about the Preakness. Rachel is much younger than Zenyatta yet she has A) beaten the boys in a grade 1 race from post 13 on a track known for tight turns and B) run as high or higher of a Beyer figure as Zenyatta has run, not to mention that Beyer figure was when she was on idle and could have gone much faster. I think her Oaks Beyer was a 108 and she could have run much faster than that if she needed to.

At this point, you can make a serious case that Zenyatta and Rachel are equal horses. Rachel being 3 means that she has more improving to do and if she improves at all, she becomes better than Zenyatta. We have seen Zen's best lifetime performance, i think 108 was her best Beyer ever.

All time great horses run Beyer figs in the 120s and beat Males. Zenyatta won't be able to run a 120 Beyer, but the jury is still out on Rachel's ability to do so.

[Oaklawn]

I just think it is great that these two fillies are the best at what they do, with totally opposite running styles. It would be great to someday see them go head to head.

[Cadillakin]

Rachel beat a horse who won the Ky Derby by a large margin. A Male. As far as the Apple Blossom goes, the Lady horse just threw in a clunker, that was a 'non performance'. We're giving Zenyatta credit for beating her, she would have lost to a 10 claimer that day, she was sick or hurt or something in that race.

No one is saying Zenyatta isn't spectacular, but in order to be whispered as an all time great filly/mare, you have to beat the boys. That's just the way it is, i don't make up the rules.

If Mine that Bird or Musket Man raced Santa Teresita or Model, it wouldn't even be a race.

Gamblers thought that Life is Sweet had a serious chance to beat Zen. LIS has one Beyer fig in her career of over 100. Most of her numbers are less than 100 and she was given serious consideration to be able to beat Zenyatta. I think she was 3-1 or something like that at the end of the betting.

One last thing. Rachel has only had 2 real races where she had the chance to 'beat someone important'. The Oaks and the Preakness. People are saying she beat 'nobody' in the Oaks, but you really can't say that about the Preakness. Rachel is much younger than Zenyatta yet she has A) beaten the boys in a grade 1 race from post 13 on a track known for tight turns and B) run as high or higher of a Beyer figure as Zenyatta has run, not to mention that Beyer figure was when she was on idle and could have gone much faster. I think her Oaks Beyer was a 108 and she could have run much faster than that if she needed to.

At this point, you can make a serious case that Zenyatta and Rachel are equal horses. Rachel being 3 means that she has more improving to do and if she improves at all, she becomes better than Zenyatta. We have seen Zen's best lifetime performance, i think 108 was her best Beyer ever.

All time great horses run Beyer figs in the 120s and beat Males. Zenyatta won't be able to run a 120 Beyer, but the jury is still out on Rachel's ability to do so.
I've been around the races for over 40 years. I've bred and owned horses. I worked for a Hall of Fame trainer and a leading breeder and neither ever told me that "the girls have to beat the boys to achieve greatness rule". Thanks for informing me...

Let's wait and see how Rachel, Mine that Bird and Musket Man do when they face these ordinary older horses.. If they thrash them.. then the case for Rachel's greatness is enhanced. If they get buried, then you have to consider that too..

Without a doubt, 3 year old crops are most accurately assessed the following year when the youngsters have competed outside the restricted ranks..

I've lived long enough to know that all the answers don't come in a day... Let's let the season progress and we can discuss the results AFTER they occur.

[PaceAdvantage]

With the exception of Rachel Alexandra, it is my opinion that the 3 year old crop is very poor.. so until I can validate Rachel against something I know can run, I'll reserve my judgment about her class and the way she fits.Don't forget there are a couple of talented 3yos sitting on the sidelines...Quality Road for starters...

[NJ Stinks]

Zenyatta may be the best thing since sliced bread but we will never know how good she may be. The schedule for the rest of the year is downright boring. All CA and all AWS. Will she go off at least 1-2 may be the last curiosity left this year - especially since Rachel Alexandra will likely skip the BC at SA this year.

[toussaud]

zenyatta got a 101 in the milady. her career high is 108, which is freaking fantastic but as far as facing the best of the best.. ON PAPER.... she's very beatable of facing the right group. And yes it's on paper, blah blah blah, I don't want to hear it, i' just thinking out loud here and playing devil's advocate.

with that said. I don't see a mare in the country that can constantly clock 100 beyer going 2 turns. I might be missing something. Maybe Seattle Smooth? And that's on dirt. her 1 dirt start she ran a 104, which means ginger punch ran a mid 90 beyer. didn't beat much that day.

maybe they don't want to chace her becuase she's not good enough and they know it? we will never know.


As visually impressive as she is... if I am the owner of well armed or even ensiten. .I would not be shaking in my boots at the thought of facing her, espically on a dirt surface.

[Imriledup]

I've been around the races for over 40 years. I've bred and owned horses. I worked for a Hall of Fame trainer and a leading breeder and neither ever told me that "the girls have to beat the boys to achieve greatness rule". Thanks for informing me...

Let's wait and see how Rachel, Mine that Bird and Musket Man do when they face these ordinary older horses.. If they thrash them.. then the case for Rachel's greatness is enhanced. If they get buried, then you have to consider that too..

Without a doubt, 3 year old crops are most accurately assessed the following year when the youngsters have competed outside the restricted ranks..

I've lived long enough to know that all the answers don't come in a day... Let's let the season progress and we can discuss the results AFTER they occur.

I just hold greatness to a higher standard than you do. I insist that a filly/mare beat the boys in order for me to annoint her great. Fillies who beat males in grade 1 races are great, even if they only do it one time.

As far as the argument of 'who they beat' i don't like to get too much into that stuff. We could argue all day about who beat who....remember, when a horse wins easy, the natural reaction is that they 'beat nothing'. People are trumpeting the accomplishments of Ruffian, but who'd she beat? She beat 4 and 5 horse fields on the front end while never really challenged.

How about Babe Ruth? People call him the greatest ball player but who'd he hit all those homeruns against? He didn't hit them against the best black or latin players, he hit them against white guys who were out of shape and working full time jobs in the offseason.

There's really no need to start off an argument tossing around 40 years experience and all that jazz, your opinion stands on its own merit whether you have done a lot in this game or nothing in this game. The great thing about racing is that once the sun rises in the morning, we are all on equal footing.

I just want to talk about opinions, what you have done in this game is of no consequence to me as i'm sure what i've done is of no consequence to you.

[Cadillakin]

There's really no need to start off an argument tossing around 40 years experience and all that jazz, your opinion stands on its own merit whether you have done a lot in this game or nothing in this game. The great thing about racing is that once the sun rises in the morning, we are all on equal footing.

Sorry about that, I only mentioned my 40 years experience to mock your notion that the greatness of a female can only be measured if she competes with and beats males...

There is no such rule. You invented it...

[Imriledup]

Sorry about that, I only mentioned my 40 years experience to mock your notion that the greatness of a female can only be measured if she competes with and beats males...

There is no such rule. You invented it...

Well, if i invented it, than its a rule, invented today! :lol:

[Edward DeVere]

By all accounts, Shirreffs is a helluva guy.

So I just hope that, for HIS sake, he doesn't embarrass himself two years in a year by whining that a conservatively-raced Zenyatta isn't named HOY.

[Rapid Grey]

By all accounts, Shirreffs is a helluva guy.

So I just hope that, for HIS sake, he doesn't embarrass himself two years in a year by whining that a conservatively-raced Zenyatta isn't named HOY.

Maybe Sheriffs can lobby for an Eclipse award be started for synthetic HOY.

[NTamm1215]

with that said. I don't see a mare in the country that can constantly clock 100 beyer going 2 turns. I might be missing something. Maybe Seattle Smooth?

Seattle Slow would be absolutely pounded by Zenyatta.

Who can she run against? A rematch between her and Cocoa Beach would be pretty interesting to me. Throw in Music Note, perhaps Seventh Street, One Caroline on a dry surface, and Rachel Alexandra.

I know its really easy to love Zenyatta and appreciate John Shirreffs but the person who said that Moss is such a sportsman based on how they're handling her makes no sense to me at all. Here you have a horse that's vastly superior to everyone in her part of the country, male or female, and you're not even going to try to do something special? Why have this horse end her career with questions like "How good might she have REALLY been?"

A comment like "Saratoga is a long way" basically says it all about just what sportsmen Shirreffs and Moss are.

NT

[joanied]

First, this reply to Cadillakin from Imriledup....priceless:lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally Posted by Cadillakin
Sorry about that, I only mentioned my 40 years experience to mock your notion that the greatness of a female can only be measured if she competes with and beats males...

There is no such rule. You invented it...


"Well, if i invented it, than its a rule, invented today!"

I'm sorry guys....but I'm still laughing:lol:


Second... I read that article where Sherriff's said that shipping 'Z' to Saratoga would be out of the question because it's so close to Breeders Cup Day...well, my reaction to that was kinda the same as Imriledup's post reply...:D I love John S, but come'on dude...too close??

Seems they have just 2 races for 'Z' marked on their calendar before the BC...I guess you can toss in 1 or 2 more...but if they think she can attain HOY on that kind of race scheduel...well...here I go again....:D