Best Fillies of all time?

[keithw84]

There's lots of comparisons of RA to Ruffian (a little premature). I'd like to know who you all would rank as the top 5 fillies of all time.

[cj]

1) Ruffian
2) Inside Information
3) Go For Wand
4) Personal Ensign
5) Princess Rooney

[tucker6]

What was the longest race Ruffian won?? I always thought she was more a sprinter.

[cj's dad]

No Zenyatta ?? 10 for 10 lifetime !?!

[cj]

What was the longest race Ruffian won?? I always thought she was more a sprinter.

She won at a mile and a half, the CCA Oaks...easily.

[cj]

No Zenyatta ?? 10 for 10 lifetime !?!

Nope, not yet. She hasn't beaten much or run particularly fast to date. There are SEVERAL more I would have on my list before her name was considered, including Lady's Secret, Paseana, and Bayakoa.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Nope, not yet. She hasn't beaten much or run particularly fast to date. There are SEVERAL more I would have on my list before her name was considered, including Lady's Secret, Paseana, and Bayakoa.
Its just too bad that Zenyatta cannot run as much as these other horses did, because she definitely would be considered one of the best. These horses you mentioned all raced more than 30 times. Zenyatta will be lucky to run 15 times. I think by the end of the year, however, she'll be close to the top of your list.

[tucker6]

She won at a mile and a half, the CCA Oaks...easily.
Well, it took me 21 hours today, but I did learn something new. Thanks! I watched her go down, and to this day have never seen the replay. That broke my heart more than any other breakdown since the early 70's.

[cj]

Well, it took me 21 hours today, but I did learn something new. Thanks! I watched her go down, and to this day have never seen the replay. That broke my heart more than any other breakdown since the early 70's.

Ga50lpOMEus

[tucker6]

Ga50lpOMEus
CJ,

Despite what 100% of the posters on PA said in the poll about you, you're alright in my book. :)

That was a mighty fine race. She looked a lot like her uncle Secretariat in that race. Get out in front, coast to the middle of the far turn, and jet home. RA certainly took a page from this book last week.

Thanks again for the video.

Tom

[keithw84]

Genuine Risk make anyone's list?

[Jinxed]

There are a lot of great fillies, but Serena's Song was a favorite, along with Ruffian and Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

Despite what 100% of the posters on PA said in the poll about you, you're alright in my book. :) Huh? Whadid I miss?

[DanG]

Zarkava & Miesque belong in this conversation.

I have my doubts about the way she will be handled going forward to show her best, but there has not been an American filly in my lifetime that would have beaten Rachel on Oaks day. Including the legendary Ruffian imo.

BTW: At a mile Melair was awesome and before her 2yo demise Landaluce was a stone cold freak.

[BetHorses!]

1) Ruffian
2) Go For Wand
3) Personal Ensign

[toussaud]

1. personal ensign
2. ruffian
3. open mind
4. Bayakoya
5. Princess Rooney

[Cadillakin]

There's lots of comparisons of RA to Ruffian (a little premature). I'd like to know who you all would rank as the top 5 fillies of all time.
It is not my intention to diminish Ruffian too much.. I realize she was a high class filly, perhaps one of the greats, but until a runner beat horses of top class and in doing so, validate their speed figures, their class remains mostly unknown. Frank Whiteley attempted to give Ruffian those legitimized credentials by matching her with Foolish Pleasure.. Unfortunately, the effort ended in tragedy.

The best horse Ruffian every faced other than Foolish Pleasure was Hot N Nasty (by Reflected Glory), who was a good California based filly at age 2 and 3. Nasty ended up 9 for 26, with an SSI of 20.26. Not bad, but not exactly a world beater.. The collection of runners Ruffian trounced at age 3 were wholly undistinguished...

On raw speed figures, California's Melair was every bit as fast as Ruffian... and unchallenged in all five of her races. In her last race she faced colts and dominated Preakness winner Snow Chief in a fairly run matchup, completing the one turn mile in 132.4, with the 7/8ths in 1:19.4. The highly credentialed Snow Chief, on that day, wasn't breathing the same air as the blazing gray, Melair.

Read Dan Illman's blog recapping that race..
http://community.drf.com/formblog/2009/05/weekend-thoughts.html

[WinterTriangle]

No Zenyatta ?? 10 for 10 lifetime !?!

Well if you're using her, can I use:
http://i41.tinypic.com/28ciwyo.jpg

Zarkava unbeaten 8F to 12F, took on the OLDER boys when she was only 3. Never touched with the whip in the Arc, and demolished the boys.

(Just wanted an excuse to use this photo. :) If you didn't know it was a thoroughbred race, you might think "jumper". This one was at the finish line where she still had enough energy to actually "jump a shadow".)

[LottaKash]

A mighty potent case for......Zarkava....

Great, great shot of her......wow....unreal !

Thx, WT.....:ThmbUp:

best,

[Bobzilla]

Well if you're using her, can I use:
http://i41.tinypic.com/28ciwyo.jpg

Zarkava unbeaten 8F to 12F, took on the OLDER boys when she was only 3. Never touched with the whip in the Arc, and demolished the boys.

(Just wanted an excuse to use this photo. :) If you didn't know it was a thoroughbred race, you might think "jumper". This one was at the finish line where she still had enough energy to actually "jump a shadow".)




Great photo, I had never seen that one before. I often wonder what might have happened if Zarkava had been pointed for the 2008 Distaff (Ladies Classic) rather than the Arc. I tend to think Zarkava would have defeated Zenyatta but who knows? If the race was any longer than 9f I'm certain Zarkava would have won.

I don't want to get too sentimental here, but I was wondering if anyone else was at the Breeders' Cup in 1995, which was run on a very wet afternoon at Belmont Park. I thought Inside Information's performance in the Distaff was one of the strongest I had ever witnessed. After seeing something like that one can't help but experience an overwhelming positive feeling totally unrelated to the more typical feelings of excitement we experience usually associated with the gaming side of the sport. I couldn't help think how my feelings at the time were in direct contrast to those experienced five years prior, the last time the BC Distaff had been run at Belmont. I never heard much mention of it but right on the heels of II's win a rainbow suddenly appeared behind the backstretch. It was almost as if it were a message of approval from Go For Wand. Maybe a message of "I'm no longer here but in another way I'm still here". Anyway, I looked at it as though the five year gap had been surrealistically bridged. Sorry if this personal account was on the gushy side but I was always surprised that I didn't hear that much about it.

[tucker6]

Great photo, I had never seen that one before. I often wonder what might have happened if Zarkava had been pointed for the 2008 Distaff (Ladies Classic) rather than the Arc. I tend to think Zarkava would have defeated Zenyatta but who knows? If the race was any longer than 9f I'm certain Zarkava would have won.

I don't want to get too sentimental here, but I was wondering if anyone else was at the Breeders' Cup in 1995, which was run on a very wet afternoon at Belmont Park. I thought Inside Information's performance in the Distaff was one of the strongest I had ever witnessed. After seeing something like that one can't help but experience an overwhelming positive feeling totally unrelated to the more typical feelings of excitement we experience usually associated with the gaming side of the sport. I couldn't help think how my feelings at the time were in direct contrast to those experienced five years prior, the last time the BC Distaff had been run at Belmont. I never heard much mention of it but right on the heels of II's win a rainbow suddenly appeared behind the backstretch. It was almost as if it were a message of approval from Go For Wand. Maybe a message of "I'm no longer here but in another way I'm still here". Anyway, I looked at it as though the five year gap had been surrealistically bridged. Sorry if this personal account was on the gushy side but I was always surprised that I didn't hear that much about it.

That's a very nice story.

[Cratos]

It is not my intention to diminish Ruffian too much.. I realize she was a high class filly, perhaps one of the greats, but until a runner beat horses of top class and in doing so, validate their speed figures, their class remains mostly unknown. Frank Whiteley attempted to give Ruffian those legitimized credentials by matching her with Foolish Pleasure.. Unfortunately, the effort ended in tragedy.

The best horse Ruffian every faced other than Foolish Pleasure was Hot N Nasty (by Reflected Glory), who was a good California based filly at age 2 and 3. Nasty ended up 9 for 26, with an SSI of 20.26. Not bad, but not exactly a world beater.. The collection of runners Ruffian trounced at age 3 were wholly undistinguished...

On raw speed figures, California's Melair was every bit as fast as Ruffian... and unchallenged in all five of her races. In her last race she faced colts and dominated Preakness winner Snow Chief in a fairly run matchup, completing the one turn mile in 132.4, with the 7/8ths in 1:19.4. The highly credentialed Snow Chief, on that day, wasn't breathing the same air as the blazing gray, Melair.

Read Dan Illman's blog recapping that race..
http://community.drf.com/formblog/2009/05/weekend-thoughts.html

I will not attempt to convince you of Ruffian’s achievements and for you to compare Melair to Ruffian borders on “I wasn’t there” mentality.

Because had you been on the NYRA circuit in the seventies (and maybe you were) you would realize that fillies like Laughing Bridge, Aunt Jin, and Equal Change were not just “race fill-ins,” they were legitimate competitors, but just not equal to Ruffian.

There are horses that become larger than life after their racing careers are over, but the following 3 horses; all of whom I had the pleasure and opportunity to see run would have in my opinion been great at anytime in racing history and they are Secretariat, Ruffian, and Dr. Fager.

Also, you apparently didn’t know Frank Whiteley because if you did, you would have never made such ridiculous assertion about him.

[Wright Stuff]

The MIGHTY Ta Wee would definitely be on my list. She raced from 1968-1970 with a 21-15-2-1 lifetime record. As a 3yo she won 8 of 10 races with 5 consecutive wins in the Prioress, Comley, Ms. Woodford, Test and Fall Highweight against males where she carried 130lbs beating King Emperor (131). She also won the Interborough and defeated older males in the 7 furlong Vosburgh. Her out of the money finishes in 1969 were experiments on grass and in a route race.

As a 4yo racing secretaries in New York and New Jersey must have thought the meaning of Ta Wee was “freight train” because the loaded her with weight. Despite the imposts her record that year was 7-5-2-0 and included wins in the Correction (131), Hempstead (132), Regret (136), Fall Highweight (140) and the Interborough (142). She won the Fall Highweight giving 19lbs to Towzie Tyke and the Fall Highweight giving 29lbs to Hasty Hitter. Her second place finishes were in the Distaff (134) and the Gravesend (134).

Here is the 1970 Interborough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWafPy3XBeM

[Cadillakin]

I will not attempt to convince you of Ruffian’s achievements and for you to compare Melair to Ruffian borders on “I wasn’t there” mentality.

Because had you been on the NYRA circuit in the seventies (and maybe you were) you would realize that fillies like Laughing Bridge, Aunt Jin, and Equal Change were not just “race fill-ins,” they were legitimate competitors, but just not equal to Ruffian.

There are horses that become larger than life after their racing careers are over, but the following 3 horses; all of whom I had the pleasure and opportunity to see run would have in my opinion been great at anytime in racing history and they are Secretariat, Ruffian, and Dr. Fager.

Also, you apparently didn’t know Frank Whiteley because if you did, you would have never made such ridiculous assertion about him.
As we handicap and watch our races, we often bet young horses with the thought that they are potentially great...The overpowering maiden winners often disappoint as they move to NW1 and NW2. Yesterday, at Hollywood Park, I singled the undefeated Canonize in the feature race who I thought had good numbers and very high potential.. But he was defeated soundly. It was only the step up to the higher class that revealed my perceptions were incorrect. I will now re-examine where he truly fits in the 3 year old picture...

When Seattle Slew won the Triple Crown, he beat nothing, and most of the able handicappers knew it.. But he stayed on, matured, and raced at 4. It was in that year that he met and passed the tests of class and became a worthy champion. IMO, other than Secretariat and possibly Dr. Fager, Seattle Slew was the best horse in the last 50 years..

But when you submit Equal Change and Laughing Bridge as worthy and classy competitors for Ruffian.. you're definitely reaching... trying to make a case that you don't have. Equal Change never won a stakes and her one and only stakes placing was behind Ruffian in the CCA Oaks.. Laughing Bridge raced two seasons and won just one stakes at 2... hardly worth a mention.. Aunt Jin was a worthy competitor winning the Selima and the Monmouth Oaks.. I was remiss not to include her in my posting.. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if you or I were there to see Equal Change or Laughing Bridge, the first never won a thing other than two allowance races and the last, won one stakes. Those are the facts, not subjective opinions..

And finally my friend, you may claim to understand Whiteley..to be his best friend or confidante, but since the beginning of time, there is only one reason to run a match race.. and that is to settle a score... and to leave no doubt about who is best. That's why Ruffian ran.. I don't think anybody of experience would argue that point..

[thruncy]

Nope, not yet. She hasn't beaten much or run particularly fast to date. There are SEVERAL more I would have on my list before her name was considered, including Lady's Secret, Paseana, and Bayakoa.Ladies Secret...beat G-1 horses wire to wire under ol' "Break em down D. Wayne off the plane," who asked her for her life too frequently and too often. She fixed that nicely...she just broke and galloped along on the outside fence all the way around. I think it took a couple repetitions of that behavior before he caught on.

[Cratos]

And finally my friend, you may claim to understand Whiteley..to be his best friend or confidante, but since the beginning of time, there is only one reason to run a match race.. and that is to settle a score... and to leave no doubt about who is best. That's why Ruffian ran.. I don't think anybody of experience would argue that point..

I neither am Frank Whiteley’s best friend nor am I his confidant, but from what I know of him, he was a fierce competitor as a trainer and clearly one of the best handicapping trainers I have ever witness.

But the thesis of your argument wasn’t about Whiteley; it was about Ruffian and Melair comparison which I disagreed with you about.

If I remembered it correctly, it was Jack J. Dreyfus Jr., NYRA chairman at the time who wanted this race and given the women’s movement at the time with the cry of the battle between the sexes the match race in 1975 between Foolish Pleasure and Ruffian took on a life on its own and had little or anything to do any egotistical motivation by Frank Whiteley.

I not posting to make Ruffian larger than life, but I am posting to assert that Melair was not in the class with Ruffian at anytime or at any distance.

[46zilzal]

There are DOZENS of fillies that have done much more than these shallow recent ones, namely
Ta Wee, Miesque, Cicada, Gallorette, Frizette, Maskette, etc

how about Pan Zareta alone? 151 76-31-21

Shallow recent yardsticks don't cut it in the history of the breed.

[46zilzal]

some more
Bewitch 55 20-10-11 defeated Citation in Washington Park Futurity
Bayakoa 39 21-9-0
Davona Dale 18 11-2-1
Chris Everet 15 10-2-2
Imp 171 62-35-29 "My Coal Black Lady"
Gallant Bloom 17 11-3-2
Morvich 16 12-2-1
Maskette 17 12-3-0
La Prevoyante 39 25-5-3

etc etc

[Norm]

I'm an old guy so my list is a little different -

Ruffian
Idun
Shuvee
Serena's Song
Personal Ensign

Any of you old-timers remember when Shuvee beat the boys in the Jockey Club Gold Cup two years in a row back when the Gold Cup was run at two miles ?

[Imriledup]

Is this list the best of all time, or the best fillies of yesteryear?

[46zilzal]

Is this list the best of all time, or the best fillies of yesteryear?
Buy yourself a book and learn what MOST of us learn: HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE and then you might understand this game a little bit better. It has all happened before, should you ever decide to learn that.

Kincsem undefeated in 54 starts

Pretty Polly 24 22-2-0 champion at two and three in England

[Cadillakin]

I neither am Frank Whiteley’s best friend nor am I his confidant, but from what I know of him, he was a fierce competitor as a trainer and clearly one of the best handicapping trainers I have ever witness.

But the thesis of your argument wasn’t about Whiteley; it was about Ruffian and Melair comparison which I disagreed with you about.
The thesis of my argument was that Ruffian never met a credentialed horse until she met Foolish Pleasure.. Therefore, though her speed was unquestionably of very high quality.. her class was never validated..

The mention of Melair was incidental to that assertion... Whether Melair would beat Ruffian or not, I do not know.. Nor do you, nor does anybody else.

But I DO know this.. Ruffian never ran 6 furlongs in 1:07.4, or 7 furlongs in 1:19.4, nor did she ever face a horse in the same stratosphere as Snow Chief until she faced Foolish Pleasure..

[Imriledup]

[QUOTE=46zilzal]Buy yourself a book and learn what MOST of us learn: HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE and then you might understand this game a little bit better. It has all happened before, should you ever decide to learn that.

:rolleyes:

[Warren Henry]

If we waited for 46 to post the absolute facts. Once he had done that we wouldn't need to waste time posting our own trivial opinions. :faint:

[Imriledup]

Unfortunately for Zenyatta, she won't ever crack the top 20 all time because she'll never race against the boys. You can't be an all time great filly if your owners and trainer keep ducking real competition. Right now, the older males in California are at an all time low. Zenyatta would be 3-5 in the Hollywood Gold cup if she ran, She would be getting 5 lbs at a mile and a quarter (the farther the better for her) Here's what Shirreffs had to say.


Shirreffs is not interested in trying Zenyatta against males in a race such as the $700,000 Hollywood Gold Cup on July 11.

"The Gold Cup is a mile and a quarter," he said. "She's never run that far. It would be an ambitious spot and against the boys? Let's make it even harder."

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I thought RAGS TO RICHES `07 campaign stamped her as one of the greatest filly's to ever step on the track. If anyone wants to see a truly awesome race, see of you can access the `07 Las Virgenes. John White has seen a race or two in his career, and his assessment of that race was that it was the "best performance in a Grade 1 race" that he had ever seen.

I might have to agree.

Hard to fault that stretch duel in the Belmont either. Was that the HOY she beat? What about her performance in the slop of the Kentucky Oaks? Hers was a short, but brilliant career, and that brilliance earns her a spot on the short list.

Two others I saw on numerous occasions that would find a spot on my list were WINNING COLORS and MELAIR, and BAYAKOA was as good as they come.

[RXB]

Unquestionably, this was the best Ky Oaks field I've ever seen. Tomisue's Delight became a multiple Grade 1 winner later in the year but this would be just another unthreatening runner-up finish against the same horse. Sharp Cat already had four Grade 1 wins; ended up with seven in her career. Well-beaten third. Glitterwoman was the favourite; this would be the only race in her 23 career tries where she finished worse than second.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyQsGdZ10kM

Ajina won three Grade 1 stakes that year including the Breeders' Cup Distaff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyV5nps4tyo

So, if it's about the quality of competition that a horse beats, and how soundly it defeats them, combined with how fast it runs... here is the most underappreciated 3YO filly of recent times.

[joanied]

Great photo, I had never seen that one before. I often wonder what might have happened if Zarkava had been pointed for the 2008 Distaff (Ladies Classic) rather than the Arc. I tend to think Zarkava would have defeated Zenyatta but who knows? If the race was any longer than 9f I'm certain Zarkava would have won.

I don't want to get too sentimental here, but I was wondering if anyone else was at the Breeders' Cup in 1995, which was run on a very wet afternoon at Belmont Park. I thought Inside Information's performance in the Distaff was one of the strongest I had ever witnessed. After seeing something like that one can't help but experience an overwhelming positive feeling totally unrelated to the more typical feelings of excitement we experience usually associated with the gaming side of the sport. I couldn't help think how my feelings at the time were in direct contrast to those experienced five years prior, the last time the BC Distaff had been run at Belmont. I never heard much mention of it but right on the heels of II's win a rainbow suddenly appeared behind the backstretch. It was almost as if it were a message of approval from Go For Wand. Maybe a message of "I'm no longer here but in another way I'm still here". Anyway, I looked at it as though the five year gap had been surrealistically bridged. Sorry if this personal account was on the gushy side but I was always surprised that I didn't hear that much about it.

Bobzilla.... Your post touched my heart...you made me cry:(

[joanied]

http://www.foolishdreamfarm.com/files/IconsandMiscfornewsite/Equal-Change.jpg
EQUAL CHANGE (Arts & Letters/Fairness)

I've been reading through this thread since it got started...I didn't post my favorite mares or the ones I believe are the great ones, because everyone here has posted all the ones I would have named...
Ruffian keeps coming up...in fact, she's been on the other threads we have here for Zenyatta & Rachel A...and I posted about her myself and thought I would maybe get bashed for it...I mentioned, like kadillakin & cratos...that Ruffian, if you want to compare the competition , really didn't face much...which also brings up the fact that when you have a horse that is so much the best in any given year...the competition he/she faces always seems, with some exceptions, like they 'aren't much'...but, in the case of Ruffian, maybe she's one of those exceptions, we'll never know...but the fillies she faced were 'not much'....also, Ruffian only ran one time outside of NY...in NJ...and, other than going head and head with Foolish Pleasure for 1/4 mile...she never faced colts...one can wonder what she would have done once she ran out of fillies to run against and had to run with the colts...with her hell bent style of running, she probably would have eventually been beaten...we'll never know.
The point is...when we speak of great race horses it's almost impossible to know just how great they would have been in a year when thier peers may have all been exceptional horses...

And, by the way...Equal Change didn't ever win a stakes race...the CCAO was her best effort, and we knew going in, that we were running for the place money...I was right at the wire that day, and we(all of us working for Buddy H) were all mighty proud of the effort Equal Change put in that day.
Oh...about the Match Race...it had nothing to do with Franks W's competitive nature...hell, 99% of trainers are fiercly competitive (they'd better be:) )...it started out as a regular race, but all but Foolish dropped out...and niether Frank or Leroy wanted it to be a match race...but by time everyone knew it would be just her & Foolish...it was too late to back down...fans & media would have gone on a war path.

[46zilzal]

If we waited for 46 to post the absolute facts. Once he had done that we wouldn't need to waste time posting our own trivial opinions. :faint:
well someone had to post the reality of their relative records without leaving out some of the best of all time who happened to run before most of us followed the sport. You know from those books that few have and fewer ever read before they spout an opinion?

[Pell Mell]

I kind of liked Silver Spoon. I don't remember her record but I know she won the Oaks and SA derby and only 1 other filly has done that. She also ran 5th in the KY Derby won by Tomy Lee. The funny thing was that her 1st race was in a claimer.

[46zilzal]

1956 SILVER SPOON,f,Citation 3 27 13 3 4 313,930 49.26
DP = 6-6-24-6-2 DI = 1.20 CD = 0.18
At 3 Won Santa Anita Derby (100,000), Cinema H (50,000), Santa Susana
(20,000), La Centinela S (15,000), Santa Ynez S (15,000), 2nd
Delaware Oaks (35,000), 3rd Monmouth Oaks (50,000)
At 4 Won Santa Margarita H (50,000), Vanity H (35,000), Santa Maria H
(25,000), Milady H (20,000), Santa Monica H (20,000), 2nd Sequoia H
(15,000), 3rd Arlington Matron H (50,000)

No Oaks but SA Derby

[PaceAdvantage]

I thought RAGS TO RICHES `07 campaign stamped her as one of the greatest filly's to ever step on the track. If anyone wants to see a truly awesome race, see of you can access the `07 Las Virgenes. John White has seen a race or two in his career, and his assessment of that race was that it was the "best performance in a Grade 1 race" that he had ever seen.Obviously Mr. White never saw the 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup...for starters.

[46zilzal]

Obviously Mr. White never saw the 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup...for starters.
OR the 1979 one either

[Cadillakin]

I thought RAGS TO RICHES `07 campaign stamped her as one of the greatest filly's to ever step on the track. If anyone wants to see a truly awesome race, see of you can access the `07 Las Virgenes. John White has seen a race or two in his career, and his assessment of that race was that it was the "best performance in a Grade 1 race" that he had ever seen.

I might have to agree.

Hard to fault that stretch duel in the Belmont either. Was that the HOY she beat? What about her performance in the slop of the Kentucky Oaks? Hers was a short, but brilliant career, and that brilliance earns her a spot on the short list.

Two others I saw on numerous occasions that would find a spot on my list were WINNING COLORS and MELAIR, and BAYAKOA was as good as they come.
I'm glad to see Winning Colors on your list. Till my last breath, I will retain some bitterness towards Lukas for forcing her into the Belmont. On Preakess day, Woody Stephens sent Pat Day and Forty Niner on a grudge match to avenge their loss in the Derby.. Day rushed Colors, bumped her, pushed her out on the turns, intimidated her all the way around, but still, she came away from him at the end beating him 3 lengths in their personal match race.. before Risen Star ran by both..

She gave it all that day.. There was nothing left.. And Lukas ran her in the Belmont... He should have had his license revoked for that...

She never returned to her former greatness.. In fact, when Personal Ensign beat her to complete her illustrious career.. between them in the photo was Goodbye Halo. Colors, at her best, was 30 lbs better than Goodbye Halo.. She beat that filly with disdain in the runup to the TC.. and at the end, the shell that once was Winning Colors could barely hold her..

[46zilzal]

She gave it all that day.. There was nothing left.. And Lukas ran her in the Belmont... He should have had his license revoked for that...

She never returned to her former greatness.. In fact, when Personal Ensign beat her to complete her illustrious career.. between them in the photo was Goodbye Halo. Colors, at her best, was 30 lbs better than Goodbye Halo.. She beat that filly with disdain in the runup to the TC.. and at the end, the shell that once was Winning Colors could barely hold her..

POST EDITED FOR BALONEY COMMENTS

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey 46, where's that article about Lukas you teased us with here a few years ago? Did that ever see the light of day? I thought not...guess the facts didn't back up your ill-conceived bias.

[PaceAdvantage]

She gave it all that day.. There was nothing left.. And Lukas ran her in the Belmont... He should have had his license revoked for that...

She never returned to her former greatness.. In fact, when Personal Ensign beat her to complete her illustrious career.. between them in the photo was Goodbye Halo. Colors, at her best, was 30 lbs better than Goodbye Halo.. She beat that filly with disdain in the runup to the TC.. and at the end, the shell that once was Winning Colors could barely hold her..Oh man, it's posts like this that make me just want to toss the monitor to the floor.

[Cadillakin]

What may I ask... do you find so offensive in that post? Any misstatements of fact? Or you don't like me knocking Lukas?

[the little guy]

Oh man, it's posts like this that make me just want to toss the monitor to the floor.

That is a pretty special post.

Yeah, poor Winning Colors, sapped of all her talent after the Belmont, so pathetic that she lost to Personal Ensign ( that bum! ) by a half length in the Maskette and a nose in the BC Distaff.

Tis ( apparently ) the season to distort reality.

[Cadillakin]

That is a pretty special post.

Yeah, poor Winning Colors, sapped of all her talent after the Belmont, so pathetic that she lost to Personal Ensign ( that bum! ) by a half length in the Maskette and a nose in the BC Distaff.

Tis ( apparently ) the season to distort reality.
Gary Stevens is of the same opinion.. that Winning Colors never regained her best form after the Belmont...

So, I hardly think it's a distortion of reality.. If anybody knows how good she was before and after, it's Gary..

[the little guy]

Gary Stevens is of the same opinion.. that Winning Colors never regained her best form after the Belmont...

So, I hardly think it's a distortion of reality.. If anybody knows how good she was before and after, it's Gary..


I like Gary, in fact I spoke with him the other day, but I'll stick to her on track performances to judge her. She ran some dynamite races that Fall after the Belmont Stakes.

[Cadillakin]

I like Gary, in fact I spoke with him the other day, but I'll stick to her on track performances to judge her. She ran some dynamite races that Fall after the Belmont Stakes.
After winning the Derby against a very good field and battling her eyeballs out with the very high class Forty Niner in the Preakness - and besting him... Winning Colors was shelled and eased in the Belmont.. Thereafter she lost 5 consecutive races.. so 6 losses in a row including the Belmont...

I lost track of her after that.. but I do know she ran poorly at age 4, winning one stakes, the Maskette, and one allowance race and losing some very easy races against horses she once would have dominated..

[the little guy]

I lost track of her after that.. but I do know she ran poorly at age 4, winning one stakes, the Maskette, and one allowance race and losing some very easy races against horses she once would have dominated..

If you lost track of her, how do you know she lost some " very easy races against horses she once would have dominated? "

She also did not win the Maskette.

[Cadillakin]

If you lost track of her, how do you know she lost some " very easy races against horses she once would have dominated? "

She also did not win the Maskette.
My mistake, it was the ungraded Turfway Breeders Cup...

I meant I didn't follow her closely at 4.... Simply, if Winning Colors was anywhere near her best form, she wouldn't lose to anybody but those of the highest class..

[the little guy]

My mistake, it was the ungraded Turfway Breeders Cup...

I meant I didn't follow her closely at 4.... Simply, if Winning Colors was anywhere near her best form, she wouldn't lose to anybody but those of the highest class..

She was terrific at the end of her 3YO season, after the Belmont Stakes, but not good at 4 ( according to you ). Many good 3YO fillies lose their form at 4. The evidence does not suggest that it was the Belmont that caused this.

[46zilzal]

Hey 46, where's that article about Lukas you teased us with here a few years ago? Did that ever see the light of day? I thought not...guess the facts didn't back up your ill-conceived bias.
When I again have access to the archives, WHICH I DO NOT PRESENTLY HAVE, that research will substantiate my assertions.

Yes horsemen I have spoken to for years believe it, hundreds of fans believe it but you want to throw you monitor on the floor. Strange response.

[Cadillakin]

She was terrific at the end of her 3YO season, after the Belmont Stakes, but not good at 4 ( according to you ). Many good 3YO fillies lose their form at 4. The evidence does not suggest that it was the Belmont that caused this.So, you're of the opinion that when a great, competitive race horse gets their head kicked in, after two hard fought, all-out races in the Triple Crown, then eases and loses by 42 lengths.. it has little or no effect on their subsequent form? I doubt you'd get much support for that suggestion from any competent horseman..

Further, I don't know how you can characterize her racing after the Belmont as terrific. Winning Colors was 6 for 8 going into the Belmont, and 2 for 11 afterwards.. She didn't hit the board in 5 of her post-Belmont races. Both of her post-Belmont wins were in non-graded company, one an allowance race..

I'll stand by my assertion that she was pushed beyond her capacity when running and easing in the Belmont, and was not adequately rested afterwards... Therefore, her subsequent form was compromised..

I'll leave it at that. You can have the last word..

[the little guy]

Further, I don't know how you can characterize her racing after the Belmont as terrific. Winning Colors was 6 for 8 going into the Belmont, and 2 for 11 afterwards.. She didn't hit the board in 5 of her post-Belmont races. Both of her post-Belmont wins were in non-graded company, one an allowance race..





Yes, I think losing two races, by a combined distance of less than a length, to a horse ( Personal Ensign ) that is considered one of the all-time greats, to be terrific. If you disagree with this that's fine.....but I think it's an opinion that stands on firm ground. Also, when you add that many good 3YO fillies do not hold their form as 4YOs, I think it's at least reasonable to suggest that her less than stellar form the next year at least could have been for reasons other than her strenuous campaign early in her 3YO season. To me, she ran too well subsequant to her TC campaign to say that Wayne ruined her by running her in the Belmont.

There was no need for your " last word " comment. It's a disagreement. It doesn't make one or the other of us bad people.....it just means we have different opinions. If, and when, one of us feels they no longer have anything to say, the argument ends. It's not about the " last word. "

[ManeMediaMogul]

Personal Ensign
Landaluce
Azeri
Serena's Song
Winning Colors
Lady's Secret
Rachel Alexandra
Allez France
All Along
Dahlia

[PaceAdvantage]

So, you're of the opinion that when a great, competitive race horse gets their head kicked in, after two hard fought, all-out races in the Triple Crown, then eases and loses by 42 lengths.. it has little or no effect on their subsequent form? I doubt you'd get much support for that suggestion from any competent horseman..Tell that to Big Brown. He got his head kicked in after two dominating efforts in the Triple Crown, was eased in the Belmont after a very rough race, and then went on to win the remainder of his career races.

Just one very recent example.

[46zilzal]

Tell that to Big Brown. He got his head kicked in after two dominating efforts in the Triple Crown, was eased in the Belmont after a very rough race, and then went on to win the remainder of his career races.

Just one very recent example.
That was the result of a horrible ride not the colt

[Pace Cap'n]

That was the result of a horrible ride not the colt

Or the result of a loose shoe.

[46zilzal]

Or the result of a loose shoe.
OR the fact that the Brown Out couldn't run inside of horses. Why do you think Dutrow picked Post 20 in the Derby and watch how this one tried to get out around the far side of the clubhouse turn in the Preakness.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

She never returned to her former greatness.. In fact, when Personal Ensign beat her to complete her illustrious career.. between them in the photo was Goodbye Halo. Colors, at her best, was 30 lbs better than Goodbye Halo.. She beat that filly with disdain in the runup to the TC.. and at the end, the shell that once was Winning Colors could barely hold her..I saw WINNING COLORS step on the track for the first time as a 2 year old at Saratoga in `87. In the field that day was GOODBYE HALO and the juvenile filly Eclipse Award winner that year, EPITOME. WINNING COLORS absolutely smoked `em both along with the rest of the field. She was an impressive amazon. If she wasn't juiced, then she was a total freak.

[SaratogaSteve]

Why do you think Dutrow picked Post 20 in the Derby

:confused: How did he manage to do that?

[rastajenk]

I think he had the next-to-last pick. It was either the one-hole or the twenty.

[eastie]

Personal Ensign
Landaluce
Azeri
Serena's Song
Winning Colors
Lady's Secret
Rachel Alexandra
Allez France
All Along
Dahlia

no room for this filly on your top 10 ?

[Imriledup]

Maybe if Rachel wins a few more grade 1 races vs males she can squeeze into the bottom 20 of some of the lists on here.

[KingChas]

I'd give an honorable mention too;
Silverbulletday :ThmbUp:

[Marlin]

no room for this filly on your top 10 ?Is Go For Wand really in the top 10? She was a very nice filly. The tragedy was horrible. How come when horse racing tradgedy occurs we move a horse up ten lengths? I guess it's human nature. Our softer side perhaps. There was NO WAY GFW was getting by Bayakoa. She ran as hard as she could, ultimately leading to her demise. She would have NEVER won. I'd put her on par with Silverbulletday. Best ever? Top 10? Nope.

[juanepstein]

makybe diva

[Imriledup]

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/preakfav.jpg

[juanepstein]

makybe diva

3 melbourne cups in a row against males and females.

2003 melbourne cup

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2004 melbourne cup


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[juanepstein]

melbourne cup 2005

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[juanepstein]

2005 cox plate

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2005 bmw....going the other direction

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tribute

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rachael or zenyatta do this? i dont think so!

[classhandicapper]

Criteria: overall record, retained peak, high ability at various distances, dirt horses, horses I have seen

1) Ruffian
2) Go For Wand
3) Personal Ensign
4) Bayakoa
5) Rachel Alexandra

RA could easily be second on this list, but I am reserving judgment until I see her against several more high quality fields on fast tracks.

I'm going to have a tough time ever putting her ahead of Ruffian because I think Ruffian would dominate all these horses at 8F or less and probably outrun them and hold on going longer also. I think she was simply a faster filly than the others and would always have the edge unless a rabbit was used. Trying to run with Ruffian would be suicidal and letting her loose would spell doom.

[Space Monkey]

Did I actually see a top 10 list without Ruffian on it??? I must be dreaming :confused: . Surely, nobody with any brain activity at all would leave Ruffian off.
Must be an attention whore.

[juanepstein]

theres a real solid mare running down under in about 18 minutes.

TYPHOON TRACY

they have her up from 2/1 to 12/1 right now.

probably not gonna stay thee but if she does im on it.

[Stillriledup]

20 years ago yesterday Bayakoa ran her last lifetime race.

[sonnyp]

shuvee
tawee
safely kept

[nijinski]

Her name said it all!

DYNANITE 7 FURLONGS BOLD N DETERMINED PACHENA 1:21 2/5
1981 BEWITCH STAKES G3 BOLD N DETERMINED 8.5 FURLONGS LIKELY EXCHANGE SAVE WILD LIFE 1:43 4/5
1981 APPLE BLOSSOM HANDICAP G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 8.5 F LA BONZO KARLAS ENOUGH 1.44 1/5
1980 ACORN STAKES G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 8 F MITEY LIVELY SUGAR AND SPICE 1:36 4/5
1980 SPINSTER STAKES G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 9 F LOVE SIGN LIKELY EXCHANGE 1:49 1/5
1980 MASKETTE STAKES G2 BOLD N DETERMINED 8 F GENUINE RISK LOVE SIGN 1:35.40 TRACK: FAST
1980 FANTASY STAKES G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 8.5 F SATIN RIBERA HONEST AND TRUE 1:45.20 .
1980 PASADENA STAKES BOLD N DETERMINED 6 FURLONGS 1:09 4/5
1980 MOTHER GOOSE STAKES G1 SUGAR AND SPICE 9 F BOLD N DETERMINED ERINS WORD 1:49 3/5
1980 KENTUCKY OAKS G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 8.5 F MITEY LIVELY HONEST AND TRUE 1:44.80
1980 SANTA SUSANA STAKES G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 8.5 F STREET BALLET TABLE HANDS 1:41 1/5
1980 COACHING CLUB AMERICAN OAKS G1 BOLD N DETERMINED 1-1/2 MILES ERINS WORD FAREWELL LETTER 2:31 4/5
1979 OAK LEAF STAKES G2 BOLD N DETERMINED 8 FURLONGS HAZEL R ARCADES AMBO 1:46 1/5

[turninforhome10]

Ta Wee
Personal Ensign
Goldlikova

[andtheyreoff]

20 years ago yesterday Bayakoa ran her last lifetime race.

You sure this couldn't have merited its own thread?