Did They Put the Wrong Horse On Top????

[Relwob Owner]

In the 6th race at Charlestown last night(May 22), there was a photo between the 9 on the inside and the 3 on the outside. It looks like the 9 won by a nose but they put the 3 up. I have never seen anything like this and wanted to get more opinions on it. If anyone has the time to look at the replay, let me know what you think!

[cj]

Do you have an image of the photo? That is all that really matters, not how it looks on replay.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I was watching last night, so I've watched the replay 15 times now. In my opinion, the video tells the whole story. If you watch it, you won't believe the photo.

[Relwob Owner]

Do you have an image of the photo? That is all that really matters, not how it looks on replay.



I know and I have looked at the Youbet photo but honestly, I am not buying the photo either....the people I know up at CT say that everyone is talking about it and wondering how it happened.

There should be a photo on most replay sites. The one on Youbet looks like a dead heat at first galnce but if you look at the replay, I think you wont believe the photo either....

[cj]

I watched, but I've been fooled by replays before. I have not seen the photo, but it really doesn't lie.

[Relwob Owner]

I watched, but I've been fooled by replays before. I have not seen the photo, but it really doesn't lie.


Most places maybe not. However, once up there, the photo line was crooked Also, I believe they just had some new "laser" photo device put in up there and after watching that replay, i am not trusting it too much.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I watched, but I've been fooled by replays before. I have not seen the photo, but it really doesn't lie.

From the video, who did you think won the race? I didn't even think it was close - I even used pause mode on Real Player, stopping the race every few inches near the finish and the 3 just wasn't ahead. I watch CT all the time and I know the camera angle. This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

[Imriledup]

Can someone put the video on youtube and post a link so we can all see it? I dont have access to charlestown replays to my knowledge.


Thanks.

[Relwob Owner]

Can someone put the video on youtube and post a link so we can all see it? I dont have access to charlestown replays to my knowledge.


Thanks.


I wish I knew how to do it....,if anyone can, that would be great!

[Citation1947]

This isnt nothing. I once witnessed a race up north, back in the eighties where the big favourite won by over a length and a 99/1 shot ran second. It was the last race with superfecta wagering. The ONLY race at the time which the track offered it.
There were no claims of foul. No steward inquiry. No disqualifications. No nothing. Just an immediate posting of the race being official and the payoffs.

The only problem was, they put the 99/1 shot up on top. They failed to show any replay whatsoever. But what they did do however, after showing the payoffs on the screen, was put a bogus photo finish pic up showing the 99/1 winning over the favourite by over a length. The fans went nuts, booing. You could hear them up there from the track kitchen. Not very happy campers, or bettors.
We went up there a few days later to see if we could take a look at or get a copy of the race and the guy that makes copies of the videos said that unfortunetely they didnt have that race because the recording system had messed up or something. Go figure. :bang:

[kyle2227]

I would like to see this race as well a youtube video would be great if someone could post it.

[Relwob Owner]

This isnt nothing. I once witnessed a race up north, back in the eighties where the big favourite won by over a length and a 99/1 shot ran second. It was the last race with superfecta wagering. The ONLY race at the time which the track offered it.
There were no claims of foul. No steward inquiry. No disqualifications. No nothing. Just an immediate posting of the race being official and the payoffs.

The only problem was, they put the 99/1 shot up on top. They failed to show any replay whatsoever. But what they did do however, after showing the payoffs on the screen, was put a bogus photo finish pic up showing the 99/1 winning over the favourite by over a length. The fans went nuts, booing. You could hear them up there from the track kitchen. Not very happy campers, or bettors.
We went up there a few days later to see if we could take a look at or get a copy of the race and the guy that makes copies of the videos said that unfortunetely they didnt have that race because the recording system had messed up or something. Go figure. :bang:



Wow. Here, they didnt show a photo immediately after the race was official, which they normally do. There is a photo on YouBet but I just cant believe it after watching the replay several times. Thanks for the info in terms of showing that these things do happen, in spite of what the photo appears to indicate.

[comet52]

Ahh, the crookedness of racing. Just another new example of something that goes on all the time. And people wonder why the game is dead :lol:

[justin13892002]

I just watched the replay. The 3 did win on the head-bob. At first, I was looking at the pole as the line, but after seeing the actual line a little to the left, and re-watched it, it looks as though the 3 did hold on barely. It was very close though and could have gone either way.....

Just my eyes opinion.

[justin13892002]

Although this is a little AFTER the line, it was with the 9 driving.


The 3 bobbed JUST RIGHT at the line, as i see

[Saratoga_Mike]

Although this is a little AFTER the line, it was with the 9 driving.


The 3 bobbed JUST RIGHT at the line, as i see

Is your attachment suppose to show the finish? It doesn't seem to work. After your post, I watched the finish another 5 times in slow mo (using equibase replays on Real Media) and I just can't agree with your take on it. I've never seen anything like this, but maybe I'm just wrong.

[justin13892002]

Like I said it could have gone either way. I am not sure the camera angle bc I dont play Charlstown, I just posted the picture of the finish. I tried getting it as close to the line as possible.


The people who had the 9 are mad, people who had the 3 are happy...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Like I said it could have gone either way. I am not sure the camera angle bc I dont play Charlstown, I just posted the picture of the finish. I tried getting it as close to the line as possible.


The people who had the 9 are mad, people who had the 3 are happy...

I appreciate your efforts on the picture, but I clicked on it and it's blank. There's a screen view of a video, but where the picture should appear is just black.

[justin13892002]

Really?? Sorry, I pasted the pic on there, not sure why it didnt show up?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Really?? Sorry, I pasted the pic on there, not sure why it didnt show up?

Doesn't show up for me - again thanks for your efforts.

[toetoe]

I just saw the photo, and I would call it a dead heat. The place horse has insufficient background to make out exactly where his nose is, but :3: has definitely hit the wire.

[PaceAdvantage]

I actually had the winner of that race (yeah, I know...redboard)...so I was pleasantly surprised when they put my number up...

I thought I may have lost when I was originally watching the race, but when they showed the replays right after the finish, I thought I had a chance....

You must remember the finish line is NOT at that big white pole...the mirror is to the left of that pole...and the 3 had the bob right at the mirror...

[Relwob Owner]

I actually had the winner of that race (yeah, I know...redboard)...so I was pleasantly surprised when they put my number up...

I thought I may have lost when I was originally watching the race, but when they showed the replays right after the finish, I thought I had a chance....

You must remember the finish line is NOT at that big white pole...the mirror is to the left of that pole...and the 3 had the bob right at the mirror...


I know where the finish line is and still question the result....a ton of people who go to the track regularly and have seen a zillion races up there do as well, despite what the photo showed...again, I believe they have a new camera up there so maybe that has something to do with it...or, maybe I am just crazy, wrong or both....

Congrats on picking that horse-I couldnt come up with a 7 year old who was 1 for 17 lifetime, had a 4 percent jock,had sub par Beyers and an 0 for 44 trainer.

[tucker6]

Congrats on picking that horse-I couldnt come up with a 7 year old who was 1 for 17 lifetime, had a 4 percent jock,had sub par Beyers and an 0 for 44 trainer.
Other than that, it's an easy game to play. :cool:

[titans1127]

I just took a look at the replay and to me it clearly looked like the 9 won. Even the slow-mo shot of the stretch run shown right after freezes at what we can assume is the line and clearly shows the 9 just ahead. I hope someone can post the photo so I can see the difference.

[TonyK@HSH]

I actually had the winner of that race (yeah, I know...redboard)...so I was pleasantly surprised when they put my number up...

I thought I may have lost when I was originally watching the race, but when they showed the replays right after the finish, I thought I had a chance....

You must remember the finish line is NOT at that big white pole...the mirror is to the left of that pole...and the 3 had the bob right at the mirror...

Mike,

Great selection! I couldn't get to the winner but I'm glad you did.

TonyK

[MNslappy]

here's what I could do, not the best quality, but I had to get it under the file size limit. The TS/RR video didnt show the photo, but the last pic is where they stopped the feed for 5 seconds, so I assume that's the photo they used, we just dont have the line.

I think in this case the video and our eyes are deceiving us. When I watched initially I couldnt believe what I was seeing when they put the results up. Looking at in Photoshop, especially that last image, I think they got the call right. It was certainly closer upon further inspection than it appeared to be watching it in real-time.

[startngate]

The last photo could not have been the one they used to determine the order of finish. It's very clear from this camera angle that the track is not square to the camera that produced that frame. All you have to do is look at the rail.

With a camera angle such as this one, the horse on the inside will always 'appear' to be further in front of a horse outside it than it acutally is.

I haven't seen the photo, so I can't comment directly on this result, but based on the last frame above it would not surprise me at all if the 3 was the winner.

With the (relatively) new video systems most tracks are using now a photo finish can be split by as little as one pixel. This means fewer dead heats as the film cameras were not that good in terms of resolutions and what a placing judge could see with the naked eye looking at a print.

This leads to one additional problem. Horses that can be split on a computer monitor can not be split on a hard copy print of the same image as printers (especially inkjet) don't have the same resolution as the monitor does. It gets even worse when the lower resolution print then gets shown on television, which also distorts the image even more (This was also true by the way when using the 'film' system when prints were made) so sometimes close photos are not shown on TV.

Assuming the result was actually correctly called by the placing judges and no one is trying to hide something, then you may be able to ask (nicely of course) to see the result on the monitor in the Placing Judge's stand. If you know the owner of the horse that finished second, I'm sure they will show it to them. Depends on the track, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Imriledup]

Is there ever a photo that shows the 3 in front? At these little bullring tracks the inside always seems to have the 'advantage'.

Looks like they messed up. 9 is the winner.

[Imriledup]

The last photo could not have been the one they used to determine the order of finish. It's very clear from this camera angle that the track is not square to the camera that produced that frame. All you have to do is look at the rail.

With a camera angle such as this one, the horse on the inside will always 'appear' to be further in front of a horse outside it than it acutally is.

I haven't seen the photo, so I can't comment directly on this result, but based on the last frame above it would not surprise me at all if the 3 was the winner.

With the (relatively) new video systems most tracks are using now a photo finish can be split by as little as one pixel. This means fewer dead heats as the film cameras were not that good in terms of resolutions and what a placing judge could see with the naked eye looking at a print.

This leads to one additional problem. Horses that can be split on a computer monitor can not be split on a hard copy print of the same image as printers (especially inkjet) don't have the same resolution as the monitor does. It gets even worse when the lower resolution print then gets shown on television, which also distorts the image even more (This was also true by the way when using the 'film' system when prints were made) so sometimes close photos are not shown on TV.

Assuming the result was actually correctly called by the placing judges and no one is trying to hide something, then you may be able to ask (nicely of course) to see the result on the monitor in the Placing Judge's stand. If you know the owner of the horse that finished second, I'm sure they will show it to them. Depends on the track, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Here's the problem that i have with all of this.

If Charlestown had a very distored view of the camera and it really appeared like the inside appeared to win yet the outside horse always seemed to get the photo, i think someone would have come on this thread and said "this happens all the time at Charlestown, to your eye it looks like the inside horse wins by a long neck or a half length yet the outside horse gets the photo"

If CT had this 'crazy' camera angle that favored horses that looked like losers, wouldn't we know it? Wouldn't we know this idiosyncrasy about CT?

Also, the original poster, i believe, is a seasoned player, its not like this is the first time he's ever watched CT.

Has anyone contacted CT and told them they put up the wrong horse?

[startngate]

Here's the problem that i have with all of this.

If Charlestown had a very distored view of the camera and it really appeared like the inside appeared to win yet the outside horse always seemed to get the photo, i think someone would have come on this thread and said "this happens all the time at Charlestown, to your eye it looks like the inside horse wins by a long neck or a half length yet the outside horse gets the photo"

If CT had this 'crazy' camera angle that favored horses that looked like losers, wouldn't we know it? Wouldn't we know this idiosyncrasy about CT?

Also, the original poster, i believe, is a seasoned player, its not like this is the first time he's ever watched CT.

Has anyone contacted CT and told them they put up the wrong horse?Maybe the guy that wrote the post was a 'seasoned' placing judge in his youth ... and no, not at CT ... :)

Again, I haven't seen the picture of the finish on the monitor in the placing judge's stand for this race, so I can not (and did not) say for certain that the 3 was the winner.

All I am saying is based on the pictures that were posted I am not the least bit surprised that the 3 won the race. That also implies (and I state it directly here for clarity) that I would be shocked if the 9 actually won the race.

Could the placing judges have screwed up? Yes, they are human. I would make the line on that less than 1/9 based on the pictures currently presented here.

Should someone post additional clips my opinion could change, but as it stands now if you want to offer me a win ticket on either of those horses I'll take the 3.

[Imriledup]

Maybe the guy that wrote the post was a 'seasoned' placing judge in his youth ... and no, not at CT ... :)

Again, I haven't seen the picture of the finish on the monitor in the placing judge's stand for this race, so I can not (and did not) say for certain that the 3 was the winner.

All I am saying is based on the pictures that were posted I am not the least bit surprised that the 3 won the race. That also implies (and I state it directly here for clarity) that I would be shocked if the 9 actually won the race.

Could the placing judges have screwed up? Yes, they are human. I would make the line on that less than 1/9 based on the pictures currently presented here.

Should someone post additional clips my opinion could change, but as it stands now if you want to offer me a win ticket on either of those horses I'll take the 3.

I'll offer you a win ticket on the 3 if you give me one on the 9! :lol:

[takeout]

It looks like in the 4th picture they haven’t quite gotten to the finish line yet. The line is supposed to be in the middle of where that little break in the rail (brown spot) is. In the 5th picture they are already about a half-length past it and the rump of the jock on the inside horse looks to be right about where the line is. In the last picture they look like they’re both past the line because they are both past the break in the rail.

[proximity]

The last photo could not have been the one they used to determine the order of finish. It's very clear from this camera angle that the track is not square to the camera that produced that frame. All you have to do is look at the rail.

.

good post.

and it's always seemed to me sitting in the grandstand there that the wire itself doesn't come straight across the track but slants back a few feet.... which will tend to favor the outside horse in photos.

[takeout]

The last photo could not have been the one they used to determine the order of finish. It's very clear from this camera angle that the track is not square to the camera that produced that frame. All you have to do is look at the rail.

With a camera angle such as this one, the horse on the inside will always 'appear' to be further in front of a horse outside it than it acutally is.They used to have a wire that went across the track that appeared to favor the outside. Maybe it was to give some prospective of what you are saying about the camera angle. It was accidentally torn down while they were working on the track and never put back up.
In the last photo they both look to me like they are about a half a head past the line.

[takeout]

and it's always seemed to me sitting in the grandstand there that the wire itself doesn't come straight across the track but slants back a few feet.... which will tend to favor the outside horse in photos.I kind of miss that wire, I wish they would put it back up. :)
Always wondered if it was really that slanted or just compensating for the grandstand not being exactly parallel to the track and/or the camera angle on the film?
I wonder why they don’t put the camera right on the line? I mean why have a camera angle on the finish line if you don’t have too?

[Cubbymac26]

What's up guys new to the site..... I've bet ct in the past and never recall the angle being that out of whack if u want to see one worse do to delta downs Sunday nite in middle of the card it came out 2-1-9 notsure if the 1 was the 3 but the prob is the 9 won eeeeeezy and he's third come on how often do u call a number and ur off that much

I no u guys are sharp can I get verification on this not sure the race and I've won photos there with the outside horse where I didn't think he reached....

When they showed photo 9 wasn't even in regular photo or mirror image!!!!!!!!!!!????!!!!!!!!!

[Relwob Owner]

Here's the problem that i have with all of this.

If Charlestown had a very distored view of the camera and it really appeared like the inside appeared to win yet the outside horse always seemed to get the photo, i think someone would have come on this thread and said "this happens all the time at Charlestown, to your eye it looks like the inside horse wins by a long neck or a half length yet the outside horse gets the photo"

If CT had this 'crazy' camera angle that favored horses that looked like losers, wouldn't we know it? Wouldn't we know this idiosyncrasy about CT?

Also, the original poster, i believe, is a seasoned player, its not like this is the first time he's ever watched CT.

Has anyone contacted CT and told them they put up the wrong horse?



To all you guys, thank you.....I really appreciate you looking at the race and also, putting up the pics--I havent been able to get in touch with anyone up there. In my experience, protesting anything up there is very difficult. I am going to try again this week and will let you know if I get any info.

[Relwob Owner]

here's what I could do, not the best quality, but I had to get it under the file size limit. The TS/RR video didnt show the photo, but the last pic is where they stopped the feed for 5 seconds, so I assume that's the photo they used, we just dont have the line.

I think in this case the video and our eyes are deceiving us. When I watched initially I couldnt believe what I was seeing when they put the results up. Looking at in Photoshop, especially that last image, I think they got the call right. It was certainly closer upon further inspection than it appeared to be watching it in real-time.



Thanks for putting up the pics....looking at those, I am still not sure....I also need to see about the new camera that I have heard they are using-there have been a few others that have looked off and maybe with the new camera came a new angle--either way, I am glad I got some feedback because I thought I was going nuts after I watched it.....been going to CT for a long time, and I thought I had seen it all!

[CyberBet]

I have made this comment before.

The building is not parallel to the track, thus giving the appearance the finish line is not perpendicular. It is this way at most every track. Google Map these places and you will see what I am talking about. This will make the finish line seem skewed. With the outside being further back from the inside. I just looked up Saratoga, Oaklawn, Charles Town, Colonial Downs, and they are all that way. Keep looking.......Belmont seems parallel.

[takeout]

The building is not parallel to the track, thus giving the appearance the finish line is not perpendicular. It is this way at most every track. Thanks. I’ve wondered about that for a long time. Any idea why so many were not built perfectly parallel to each other? Seems sort of odd.

[startngate]

Thanks. I’ve wondered about that for a long time. Any idea why so many were not built perfectly parallel to each other? Seems sort of odd.Actually this is done intentionally. It allows the people seated past the finish line to have a better view of the stretch. This is especially true for enclosed grandstands as the structural supports for the glass further impeed vision.

Even when this occurs, the photo finish camera will always be set up perpendicular to the track. It has to be for accuracy.

Also keep in mind that at most racetracks the placing judge's stand is on the finish line and the photo finish camera is either in the placing judge's stand, or immediately above it. This makes it very difficult for the pan camera to also be on the finish line, as most tracks do not have a three story press-box on top of the grandstand.

[cj's dad]

There is a well known track photographer/cameraman on this site and I am sure if he posts here he will immediately clear up who the winner was putting this discussion to bed !!

[takeout]

Actually this is done intentionally. It allows the people seated past the finish line to have a better view of the stretch. This is especially true for enclosed grandstands as the structural supports for the glass further impeed vision.Thanks. Glad to know there was some reasoning behind it. :ThmbUp:

[CyberBet]

Just came back to the thread but startngate hit the nail on the head. It was done for the fans at the track to give them a better view, which of course at one time was tens of thousands at the bigger facilities. That was done long before there was any such thing as simulcasting. But of course with all of the conspiracy theorists it has to be something sinister?:lol:


A little tid bit for watching the stretch run on television. Watch the horses hooves to see who is actually in front in the stretch. Most times it appears the outside horse rushes late (again due to the angle) but if you check the "feet" it is actually a good bit further up the track that the pass occurs. Try it...:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Has anyone contacted CT and told them they put up the wrong horse?Who are you, and what have you done with Imriledup?

They put up the right number. What, you've never seen a close finish before?