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lamboguy
05-20-2009, 08:00 PM
i was going to collect on the second race at penn national, they told me i can't collect due to technical difficulties. i was going to collect aboout $800.

i called the mutual department, they told i am out of luck. i told the girl i know a little about luck because i got plenty of bad luck, i know they take my money when i lose, she told me it was my fault that i bet the race and i should know better!!

Rook
05-20-2009, 08:13 PM
I am also steaming mad about this. I had a winning $3 tri and since the $2 exacta was going to pay $220, I was gypped about $1k. 22 years of betting horses and you think you've seen it all and then something like this happens to prove that racing can hit new lows.:mad:

Now when the race is finished, I won't have to worry about just DQs, I'll have tote malfunctions in the back of my mind even after the race is declared official:mad:

BillW
05-20-2009, 08:24 PM
Did you guys ever think that the tracks are just getting paranoid about keeping quiet about what has been happening all along? I doubt that the tote system has been pristine all along and is suddenly having problems.

lamboguy
05-20-2009, 08:33 PM
I am also steaming mad about this. I had a winning $3 tri and since the $2 exacta was going to pay $220, I was gypped about $1k. 22 years of betting horses and you think you've seen it all and then something like this happens to prove that racing can hit new lows.:mad:

Now when the race is finished, I won't have to worry about just DQs, I'll have tote malfunctions in the back of my mind even after the race is declared official:mad:

i guess this is a new one, the people that work at the track can now claim a tote malfunction if one of their buddies loses a big bet on the race.

if you bet with an adw, i think you will get paid eventually. i am not sure if there is any precedent for this. i only now its not right from any perspective.

maxwell
05-20-2009, 08:35 PM
Lambo,

The "girl" actually told you it was your own fault? That you should have known better?

Known what? :confused:

DeadHeat
05-20-2009, 08:38 PM
I myself have never seen that happen but I really feel for you guys.

lamboguy
05-20-2009, 08:46 PM
they are not answering the phone at the mutual department now. they truly screwed up, they are going to have to pay all the winners otherwise i am going to make sure they lose their gambling license to run the slot machines in that joint.

point given
05-20-2009, 08:47 PM
Sounds like you got a good country musc song title there or maybe a blues riff.

I just won the tri,fecta and didn't get paid. ooo, ooo baby........ they said it was the tote, but baby I Know that note, and its the horseplayer blues for me.......:(

DeanT
05-20-2009, 08:51 PM
Did you guys ever think that the tracks are just getting paranoid about keeping quiet about what has been happening all along? I doubt that the tote system has been pristine all along and is suddenly having problems.
You mean those horses who get an easy lead and drop from 9-5 to 6-5 might not be getting hit by sharp simo money on the pool dump? Say it aint so.

BUD
05-20-2009, 08:58 PM
I would get in touch with your states DA in the Morning--Try to talk to an ADA not an adman. they should direct you to an atty who understands states gambling laws.. Also call the DA of the State the Race track is in--800 bucks-that is something worth persuing.

If they took your money and you legit win. there is no you shoulda known better---they took your C@sh---

oexplayer68
05-20-2009, 09:01 PM
Sorry for you guys who lost out. I am pretty sure what happened is that some of the machines didn't shut off, because that exacta dropped to only $92 after the last batch of money came in. It was definitely over $200 prior to that, and with a 7-1 over an 11-1 $92 looked extremely suspicious to me, and somewhere some way I am sure there was some past-posting going on.

They don't call this place the Pig Penn for nothing.

andymays
05-20-2009, 09:47 PM
Make noise and shake the tree! Contact local media and whoever is in charge(in CA it's the CHRB) . Copy and paste the transaction from your account and send some emails out.

This stuff is totally unacceptable. Make a good effort and even if you aren't successfull in getting the money that is rightfully yours(and I hope you get it), your effort may help prevent this from happening to someone else in the future.

Try to shine as much light as possible on this situation. As Horseplayers we will all be better off from your effort.

Good Luck,

Andy

magwell
05-20-2009, 09:51 PM
You mean those horses who get an easy lead and drop from 9-5 to 6-5 might not be getting hit by sharp simo money on the pool dump? Say it aint so. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rook
05-20-2009, 10:15 PM
Oexplayer is right. The winning exacta was pounded down from $220 to $92 after the race went off. Woodbine's HPI still had the $220 price when the race was declared official but hours afterwards, their exacta grid, which is still up, shows the pounded down price. I have never seen their grid change prices like that before. It's typical of the industry that they expect the horseplayer to pay for their incompetence.:mad:

lamboguy
05-20-2009, 10:26 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: i just got hold of the mutual office, they explained to me that the race wasn't made official.i said oh really?

the guy said yes everyone got their money refunded to him. i then asked him since the race wasn't official then the people that had purse distributions coming to them didn't get paid he either. he said hell no they got paid. then i said the race was official enough to pay the purse but not official enough to pay me for my winning wagers? he answered, you got that right pal.

cj
05-20-2009, 10:29 PM
This is really scary stuff. I really hope this doesn't just "go away", it is a symptom of much bigger problems.

Rook
05-20-2009, 10:35 PM
I was the one who came up with the idea for the HANA track ratings. Here is my next suggestion for them. Create a Wall Of Shame listing the tracks who treat their customers with contempt. Penn National is my inaugural nominee.

toussaud
05-20-2009, 10:39 PM
so let's say I am at santa anita downs, I catch a 7 day carryover and hit a pick 6 ticket for a couple of hundred thousand dollars, only for the last day to be "officnally unoffical".

I'd go postal. "lol, no see, you don't undersatnd. you are going to pay me. I guess you thought I was ASKING for my money.. silly teller."

oexplayer68
05-20-2009, 10:42 PM
I was the one who came up with the idea for the HANA track ratings. Here is my next suggestion for them. Create a Wall Of Shame listing the tracks who treat their customers with contempt. Penn National is my inaugural nominee.

I totally agree. This place could care less about the racing fan. Penn National is the only track that I know of that when there is a gate scratch, they don't back the horses out, change the numbers, or give you anytime to change bets; they just back the scratched horse out and let em' go.

This latest fiasco really smells fishy to me. I knew when the tote delay went on for so long that something was up. I was lucky and got a full refund of my losing wagers, but I don't think it was right really, especially for you guys that got screwed. One thing for sure, the pools were sure a lot lower after this happened.

I sure hope this is investigated. I don't believe they are playing straight here. There is just no way, that combination pays that low. It payed more with the 9-5 chalk underneath than the 11-1. My guess is they knew some of the terminals didn't shut off, and decided to just refund everything.

kyle2227
05-20-2009, 10:45 PM
Penn National is a nice track but way too much funny business goes on there. I would make your voice heard as quick and as loud ad you can. Also I would get in touch with HANA. Do not quit on this one.

Rook
05-20-2009, 10:50 PM
i just got hold of the mutual office, they explained to me that the race wasn't made official.i said oh really?
.
The guy is a bald face liar. The announcer called it official and the word Official was on the screen for at least 20 minutes. I have a screen capture which I would attach if I knew how to do that.

BombsAway Bob
05-20-2009, 11:02 PM
this caught my attention, so I went to TwinSpires.com for the race replay.
Strangely, the video starts with the "Photo finish" caption, with final odds.
There's a long delay, then the track announcer says "It's Official"..
another long delay,and then... fade to black..
It's time for action on this nonsense! :ThmbDown:

cj
05-20-2009, 11:05 PM
I'm trying to figure out what options they had:

1) Refund all

2) Pay winners after the "malfunction"

Why would anyone with a winning ticket not want #2? Losers have no claim, yet they are rewarded with a refund. I am in no way saying the exacta shouldn't have paid more than $92, but isn't that still better than a refund?

point given
05-20-2009, 11:12 PM
Get in touch with Matt Hegarty at the DRF. This type stuff is his job there, he will shine a light on it.

Rook
05-20-2009, 11:15 PM
I'm trying to figure out what options they had:

1) Refund all

2) Pay winners after the "malfunction"


Their other option would have been to take the time to throw out the past post wagers and pay the correct amount. Surely, the technology exists and if it took an hour or two to calculate it properly, so what? That's a hell of a lot better than pissing off customers so badly that some will never play there again. PEN already has a very poor reputation and this is going to just turn off customers like me who have previously ignored the negative word of mouth.

cj
05-20-2009, 11:16 PM
Their other option would have been to take the time to throw out the past post wagers and pay the correct amount. Surely, the technology exists and if it took an hour or two to calculate it properly, so what? That's a hell of a lot better than pissing off customers so badly that some will never play there again. PEN already has a very poor reputation and this is going to just turn off customers like me who have previously ignored the negative word of mouth.

I'm not sure they do have that technology or I would have included it. If so, they haven't used it in other similar situations.

Rookies
05-20-2009, 11:21 PM
they are not answering the phone at the mutual department now. they truly screwed up, they are going to have to pay all the winners otherwise i am going to make sure they lose their gambling license to run the slot machines in that joint.

Please do and get it published everywhere !

Cost me 150 on the winner. I still have the electronic record. This industry is FUBARed in so many areas. Had no idea why I didn't cash. Just total b.s. !!! :mad:

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 12:11 AM
I'm not sure they do have that technology or I would have included it. If so, they haven't used it in other similar situations.

ALL Database transactions have a time stamp. Even an 8th grader could write up a report showing all of the wagers after a certain time and where they were made.

It is technology they had 20 years ago. If they cannot tell where and when a wager was placed then they should just close up shop now, because there is no way any bettor could ever trust them with their money. :ThmbDown:

Bettowin
05-21-2009, 12:22 AM
Just think about how many losing tickets were thrown away and will never be refunded? The track wins again.

The Judge
05-21-2009, 12:27 AM
I'm sure we all have horror stories about seemingly nefarious conduct but we don't have the smoking gun. Here there is a smoking cannon. The track just said they will not pay a winning ticket after the race was announced official. We will pay the owners, the trainers the jocks and ourselves but you degenerates can call the cops.

BillW
05-21-2009, 12:50 AM
I'm trying to figure out what options they had:

1) Refund all

2) Pay winners after the "malfunction"

Why would anyone with a winning ticket not want #2? Losers have no claim, yet they are rewarded with a refund. I am in no way saying the exacta shouldn't have paid more than $92, but isn't that still better than a refund?

Are there pre-existing procedures? Maybe laws in the affected jurisdiction that prevent the track from simply sitting down and deciding what to do?

proximity
05-21-2009, 12:57 AM
I'm not sure they do have that technology or I would have included it. If so, they haven't used it in other similar situations.

like njcurveball said, i'm pretty sure they do have the technology to do this but my hunch is that this sort of resolution may have taken more than the "hour or two" that rook implied. AND (this may sound stupid and also be incorrect but..) i'm not sure that a race at an individual track can be left "pending", meaning i'm not 100% that they can run the next race without having some kind of closure on the prior race (?)......... so it may have been either make this race official or cancel the remainder of the card. of course the winners still should have been paid the (lower) prices but it's out there now and i hope you're right that it doesn't just "go away"....

hoovesupsideyourhe
05-21-2009, 01:06 AM
hana police on the case..id make this an issue.. and boycott penn ..

jballscalls
05-21-2009, 01:14 AM
Just think about how many losing tickets were thrown away and will never be refunded? The track wins again.

unclaimed ticket winnings after a long period of time go to the racing commission aka the state here in oregon, i suspect its the same around the country. so the track doesnt win, actually they lose, because that money goes to the state and not back into the churn and the track doesnt get any takeout on refunds. not to mention you get a ton of players who are absolutely pissed (and rightfully so) so what part of that is the track winning?

I thought something like this happened at hollywood park just last week. And i know it happened on an australia race back in the fall. Its usually just a signal error, or they pools dont close, or something like that. It's really a bad deal when it happens and as a player/bettor, there is nothing you can do, which is a shame.

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 01:16 AM
this is not the first time i have been on here preaching about secure wagering pools.

it looks like penn national, who charges 30% on exotic wagers, choses to treat their customers as victims. i mean if i am stupid enough to bet into those rediculous takeouts, i am stupid enough to sit there and not get paid when i win.

i hope someone from penn national is paying close attention to this board. if you are i am going to let you in on what i am going to do to your one armed bandit facility if i am not paid by friday this week.

i am going to get your license to run slot machines pulled immediately, i know exactly how to do it, so you just sit there and think i am just another victim of your corporate structure that pays off politions to get things done, i got a few of my own friends. this is more than money, you are mistakeing kindness for weakness penn national gaming and no one likes it.

DeanT
05-21-2009, 01:34 AM
John Pricci mentions this incident, as well as the Hollywood one on saturday.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/John-Pricci/

It's An Epidemic

In the midst of an interview last evening with Horseplayers Association of North America president Jeff Platt, HRI learned that the second race at Penn National for Wednesday May 20 was declared a non-betting event when the betting pool didn't close until approximately 20 minutes after the race had been declared official.

The winning Twodoorsdown won the race at 10-1. The race, for $5,000 claimers going a a mile and 70 yards, was declared official and an announcement was made that prices were pending. While the prices were pending, the winner's odds dropped to 9-1, then 8-1, then, after the lengthy delay, the race was declared a non-wagering event and all wagers, including those properly placed, were refunded.

WinterTriangle
05-21-2009, 01:58 AM
Wondering how this stuff happens. Just read another post on other forum where a HOL race paid everyone.......except anyone in Canada, who got a "refund". How can you pay some bettors on a race and not others?

Bettowin
05-21-2009, 02:26 AM
[QUOTE=lamboguy]this is not the first time i have been on here preaching about secure wagering pools.

it looks like penn national, who charges 30% on exotic wagers, choses to treat their customers as victims. i mean if i am stupid enough to bet into those rediculous takeouts, i am stupid enough to sit there and not get paid when i win.

i hope someone from penn national is paying close attention to this board. if you are i am going to let you in on what i am going to do to your one armed bandit facility if i am not paid by friday this week.

i am going to get your license to run slot machines pulled immediately, i know exactly how to do it, so you just sit there and think i am just another victim of your corporate structure that pays off politions to get things done, i got a few of my own friends. this is more than money, you are mistakeing kindness for weakness penn national gaming and no one likes it.[/QUOTE






Keep us informed on how it goes.

takeout
05-21-2009, 03:33 AM
This kind of stuff is total BS and totally unacceptable. Winners get paid, PERIOD! No excuses, no BS, no “non-betting event” crap any time you feel like it. PAY UP you deadbeats! :mad:

trying2win
05-21-2009, 06:40 AM
I was the one who came up with the idea for the HANA track ratings. Here is my next suggestion for them. Create a Wall Of Shame listing the tracks who treat their customers with contempt. Penn National is my inaugural nominee.

Rook,

I like that idea of yours for a H.A.N.A. Hall Of Shame. Penn National certainly belongs in the Hall Of Shame with things like the schemozzle involved with the 2nd race on Wed. May 20/09, plus other things like their outrageous and downright shameful takeouts of 31% on triactors and superfectas.

A boycott of Penn National until they shape up in many areas, sounds like a good idea too.

Just a suggestion here. Bettors that had big-paying tickets on that race mentioned above, and don't get any decent remuneration from Penn National, should consider sending a report to :

www.ripoffreport.com (http://www.ripoffreport.com)

and publicly embarrass Penn National some more.

No doubt, Penn National mangagement will be huddling with some sleazy lawyers and going over the fine print in their TERMS OF USE on their website, track programs etc. to justify their decisons regarding this race in question.

T2W
----------------------------------------------------------------------

~"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

--Winston Churchill

andymays
05-21-2009, 07:35 AM
i just got hold of the mutual office, they explained to me that the race wasn't made official.i said oh really?

the guy said yes everyone got their money refunded to him. i then asked him since the race wasn't official then the people that had purse distributions coming to them didn't get paid he either. he said hell no they got paid. then i said the race was official enough to pay the purse but not official enough to pay me for my winning wagers? he answered, you got that right pal.


Call again and record the conversation if that's legal where you live!

cj
05-21-2009, 08:09 AM
ALL Database transactions have a time stamp. Even an 8th grader could write up a report showing all of the wagers after a certain time and where they were made.

It is technology they had 20 years ago. If they cannot tell where and when a wager was placed then they should just close up shop now, because there is no way any bettor could ever trust them with their money. :ThmbDown:

I agree, but it seems they don't use it. A race at Tampa I believe was bet at Philly well after the bell (or the other way around) and no effort was made to find the past posters. They just paid out. At Hollywood, same thing, they just refunded everyone. Now Penn, same thing.

cj
05-21-2009, 08:10 AM
Are there pre-existing procedures? Maybe laws in the affected jurisdiction that prevent the track from simply sitting down and deciding what to do?

Probably not, because this can never happen, right?

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 08:43 AM
i have called the racing office last night, they refered me to the stewards the stewards have refered me to the racing commission, they are probably going to refer me back to management. they think they are going to wear me out.
the steward told me that there were wagering coming in after the race, i told him that happens everyday at almost every single racetrack these days, he said that is why i am not getting paid. i told him i made my bets 10 minutes before the race and my adw confirms that fact, he told me it doesn't matter.

i told him to go and stick his face in a toilet bowl.

The Hawk
05-21-2009, 08:48 AM
I don't play there much but now I will make a point to never, ever bet Penn National again.

What do you think would happen on the NY Stock Exchange if guys found a way to buy stocks at lower prices after the bell?

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 09:26 AM
the thing that really burns my behind on this deal is that i had played daily doubles and had sucessfully picked the winner of the first race. they didn't even want to give me a consolation double, they gave me a refund. their reasoning was that the 2nd race race was not official, so they have every right to screw me out of my lucky win in the first.

the fine people at the penn national gaming operation are going to learn my name is TUCKER not SUCKER

tag
05-21-2009, 09:32 AM
wow. just wow.

miesque
05-21-2009, 09:42 AM
I really wish the following comments I am about to make were not true, but based on my personal experiences at Penn, I don't expect them to do jack about this issue. If they refuse to properly deal with the recurring track surface issues that having be plaguing the track the last year, I have no faith they will do anything. They just flat out don't care, as long as the slots are running, everything else is just a pain in the ass to them.

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 09:48 AM
I really wish the following comments I am about to make were not true, but based on my personal experiences at Penn, I don't expect them to do jack about this issue. If they refuse to properly deal with the recurring track surface issues that having be plaguing the track the last year, I have no faith they will do anything. They just flat out don't care, as long as the slots are running, everything else is just a pain in the ass to them.

you happen to be right, but in this instance i am not going after the racing, i will be going after the slot machines. people stuff millions of dollars in those things on a daily basis, what they are going to have to pay me will be peanuts compared to what they might lose if their machines are closed down for an hour.

the decision to screw me out of my money may have been made by penn national racetrack, not penn national gaming. i don't think penn national gaming wants to risk loss of slots over a simple little screwjob like this.

The Judge
05-21-2009, 09:51 AM
I will not make another bet at any track in Philadelphia period.

Rook
05-21-2009, 09:56 AM
If PEN wanted to pay the correct prices they could have made a simple call to Woodbine because they had the untainted pool information on their website long after the race was declared official. It wasn't until PEN gave up trying to do the right thing that that the Woodbine exacta grids were updated to reflect PEN's gross negligence.

miesque
05-21-2009, 09:59 AM
you happen to be right, but in this instance i am not going after the racing, i will be going after the slot machines. people stuff millions of dollars in those things on a daily basis, what they are going to have to pay me will be peanuts compared to what they might lose if their machines are closed down for an hour.

the decision to screw me out of my money may have been made by penn national racetrack, not penn national gaming. i don't think penn national gaming wants to risk loss of slots over a simple little screwjob like this.

Well, let us all know how it goes and best of luck in your endeavor. My personal perspective after several years on the ownership and horseplaying side, is that I frankly have no idea why a horseplayer would chose to play Penn National if there are other alternatives available unless you happen to know specific information on a horse or happen to be physically at at the track and can take a good look yourself, because thats the only time I bet Penn.

cj
05-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I will not make another bet at any track in Philadelphia period.

Pennsylvania? Penn is in Grantville, near Harrisburg.

The Judge
05-21-2009, 10:37 AM
Don't know what I was thinking I will nor play any track in "Pennsylvania".

Bruddah
05-21-2009, 10:38 AM
I have to laugh at the Industry not being able to solve the problem. My take, is because they don't want to solve it. Too much for their tiny minds. Hell, I can solve it with simple technolgy, one employee and no investment.

I can envision a track electrician standing by a circuit breaker and throwing the switch to cut power to the tote machines. Naturally when signaled by the starter. No power to the totes and wahla no further betting.

Naturally, I am just joking. I know some of you will think about it, over analyze it and come to the conclusion that won't work. :D

1st time lasix
05-21-2009, 10:40 AM
Evidence points to an overwhelming conclusion: The entire tote system is vulnerable. It needs to be upgraded immediately in the simulcast era.

proximity
05-21-2009, 11:07 AM
the steward told me that there were wagering coming in after the race,.

quite condescending of the steward to be telling you something you already know. is there another job where one can be paid so much for doing so little?

cj
05-21-2009, 11:29 AM
Of course, the main stream racing press is all over the story! :rolleyes:

DeanT
05-21-2009, 11:34 AM
Bloodhorse mentioned the Hollywood one today.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50877/chrb-seeks-explanation-of-past-posting-error

So far I see nothing on PEN, other than Paulick and HANA linking to Pricci's article.

DanG
05-21-2009, 11:35 AM
I prey HANA makes tote security issue numero uno; even over the obscene rakes.

As was said by several PA members; you speak with your bankrolls, although PEN is obviously driven by the casino take.

Bombard the state racing officials with an avalanche of mail, phone calls, smoke signals etc. The track offices should wake up to an e-mail server on tilt every morning for a year.

This is obscene. :mad: :mad:

• E Mail: fred.lipkin@pngaming.com

• Phone: 717-469-2211

cj
05-21-2009, 11:37 AM
Bloodhorse mentioned the Hollywood one today.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50877/chrb-seeks-explanation-of-past-posting-error

So far I see nothing on PEN, other than Paulick and HANA linking to Pricci's article.

No DRF, no Bloodhorse, no Throroughbred Times. To use one of our common Air Force acronyms, racing is FUBAR.

miesque
05-21-2009, 11:43 AM
No DRF, no Bloodhorse, no Throroughbred Times. To use one of our common Air Force acronyms, racing is FUBAR.

Ever since HANA was officially created I have been paying a lot closer attention to news coverage in the racing industry (aka who covers what and who doesn't cover what and to what extent coverage if any exists on a topic) and its been quite fascinating seeing who picks up what stories and at what angle and who doesn't touch certain stories.

DeanT
05-21-2009, 11:45 AM
Cj,

When Mike posted his thoughts on the Hollywood situation, Ray Paulick then dug into the story. He came back and posted this on the HANA blog and asked a question:

Mike,

Thanks for being the watchdog on these wagering integrity issues. As a result of seeing your piece, I've posted a more comprehensive story at paulickreport.com, with comments from Hollywood Park and the California HOrse Racing Board and "no comment" from the tote company (except for an internal email that "explains" the mistake).

My question: if you had not discovered this incident and reported on it here, would Hollywood, SciGames or the California Horse Racing Board voluntarily publicized this major embarrassment? My guess: no.

That question is a good one, imo. I wonder if this has happened before with tote delays and we never knew about it? Who knows, but does it not make you think?

Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but this is why we need people to join HANA, and pass it around to friends who care about racing. If it was six months ago we would not even had anyone to read Mike's story, and if they had not I think I agree with Ray - no one would have ever known.

Mike's original story is here if anyone wants to read it.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/05/past-posting-again.html

cj
05-21-2009, 11:46 AM
Ever since HANA was officially created I have been paying a lot closer attention to news coverage in the racing industry (aka who covers what and who doesn't cover what and to what extent coverage if any exists on a topic) and its been quite fascinating seeing who picks up what stories and at what angle and who doesn't touch certain stories.

I've watched it for a long time, and is part of the reason I have great respect for Crist and Beyer.

cj
05-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Dean,

I have always believed some past posting has been going on for a long time. Every time it gets mentioned, we are assured from tracks and companies that it isn't possible. Obviously, it is possible. If it can happen "accidentally", it most certainly can happen intentionally.

To your point, I would venture for every incident we know about, there are ten times as many we don't.

InsideThePylons-MW
05-21-2009, 11:50 AM
I wonder if this has happened before with tote delays and we never knew about it? Who knows, but does it not make you think?

Almost every tote delay is caused by bets being late in delivery to the host pool.

If all outlets have not reported, there is a tote delay.

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 11:54 AM
If a teller finds an open "back door" and bets into it, they are fired and legal proceedings take place. This happened at ACRC a long time ago when they found betting at Calder still open after the race was over. They decided to bet $50 exactas and $10 trifectas. There was a tote hold, but eventually the race was paid and I would hope those bets removed from the pool, rather than not pay them and the track somehow keep that money.

It has past the point of any excuses being tolerated now. Much like the fix six bettors who had been taking small money out of the Balmoral pools and then decided to take millions from the Breeders Cup. Funny thing about that, none of the people who had 5 winners got any more money after they were caught. So where did all of that money go?

This should be investigated the same way as if a teller had stolen the money. If it is just an "honest mistake" then fine. Say someone went on-line a few minutes after the race and bet a $2 exacta box with 3 horses and happened to include the winners.

However, if they find people, ADws, whatever, whoever went in and bet $50 straight exactas or $10 straight trifectas, then those people need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

My suspision here is that the trifecta was bet so hard it would have paid less than the exacta if they actually paid what was in the pools. What if some moron saw the back door and bet a $100 trifecta or more on the winners?

There are audits on every bet. At the track, they can tell you how much was bet at each window, the exact tickets, time they were bet, etc. Each ADW has the same type of records. If Ian is still around he can say just how quickly they could come up with who bet a race after a certain time and for how much.

This is an even uglier black eye than the fix six! :ThmbDown:

cj
05-21-2009, 11:57 AM
Funny thing about that, none of the people who had 5 winners got any more money after they were caught. So where did all of that money go?



Just to be fair, the 5 of 6 payouts were adjusted accordingly. But so little has been done since that scandal, is there any hope of it ever being fixed?

toetoe
05-21-2009, 12:01 PM
This makes me think that HANA should drop everything and boycott this dump. :ThmbDown: .

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 12:09 PM
i think you guys miss what i said. i picked the winner in the first race and played a daily double. they made the first race offcial and paid the people that were smart enough to bet win instead of double. i was the stupid one i played the daily double. now they penalise me. they take away my winning ticket, and took the money from the double tickets that i bet and lost. so the bottom line is that i could only, which i did, i never had a chance to win.

i will give anyone out there $100 if you can prove that i am wrong on this matter.

if the steward worked all week and the management was 10 minutes late with his paycheck he would have them arrested. that i know for sure.

cj
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
i think you guys miss what i said. i picked the winner in the first race and played a daily double. they made the first race offcial and paid the people that were smart enough to bet win instead of double. i was the stupid one i played the daily double. now they penalise me. they take away my winning ticket, and took the money from the double tickets that i bet and lost. so the bottom line is that i could only, which i did, i never had a chance to win.

i will give anyone out there $100 if you can prove that i am wrong on this matter.

if the steward worked all week and the management was 10 minutes late with his paycheck he would have them arrested. that i know for sure.

I don't think anyone missed it. It is just on equal footing as all the other complaints in my mind. It sucks.

Cangamble
05-21-2009, 12:13 PM
i think you guys miss what i said. i picked the winner in the first race and played a daily double. they made the first race offcial and paid the people that were smart enough to bet win instead of double. i was the stupid one i played the daily double. now they penalise me. they take away my winning ticket, and took the money from the double tickets that i bet and lost. so the bottom line is that i could only, which i did, i never had a chance to win.

i will give anyone out there $100 if you can prove that i am wrong on this matter.

if the steward worked all week and the management was 10 minutes late with his paycheck he would have them arrested. that i know for sure.
Did they give a total refund for all double bets? Still, you are right. You were entitled to at least a consolation double.

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 12:16 PM
Just to be fair, the 5 of 6 payouts were adjusted accordingly. But so little has been done since that scandal, is there any hope of it ever being fixed?

How were they adjusted? Do you have a link for that? The bettor were not caught until long after they paid out. Did they run them down from tax records? If so, did the ten percenters get paid instead?

cj
05-21-2009, 12:20 PM
How were they adjusted? Do you have a link for that? The bettor were not caught until long after they paid out. Did they run them down from tax records? If so, did the ten percenters get paid instead?

Are we still talking about the Breeder's Cup? If so, the 6 of 6 bets were not paid and yes, since 5 of 6 were signers, it was easy to pay the winners. If 10 percenters got paid, that is the original bettor's fault, no sympathy there.

Niko
05-21-2009, 12:21 PM
this is an area where Hana has really helped and done a great job :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: .

I try not to say much about the integrity of the pools anymore so I'm glad these issues are being raised. Anyone remember the story about the players that cracked the off-shore poker site until they were caught by some lawyers on the site. If it smells fishy, it is. It will be up to the players and Hana to bring this issue out. The industry will continue to cover it up until they can't anymore.

boycott, did I finally hear boycott again!!

You know the racino tracks don't give a crap about racing other than to keep their other gambling going. Otherwise they would lower the take as opposed to raising them. The only person that helps is the rebate player.

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 12:22 PM
i think you guys miss what i said. i picked the winner in the first race and played a daily double. they made the first race offcial and paid the people that were smart enough to bet win instead of double. i was the stupid one i played the daily double. now they penalise me.

The Racing Channel shows a consolation double and a pick 3 payoff in their results. Did you get paid the consolation or a refund?

Race:1WinPlaceShow1st8Kitti Lake5.802.802.202nd1Kelly Irish Girl2.402.103rd6Splendor Spender2.404th3Real Art$2 Exacta8-111.60Refunds: 2,4,5,9,10,11,12 Race:2WinPlaceShow$2 D/Double8/05.80 Race:3WinPlaceShow1st2Agave Ridge5.603.202.802nd3Kranz3.002.403rd8Belair Pines3.204th11Peppermento$2 Exacta2-314.40$2 Trifecta2-3-843.40Refunds: 6$2 Pick 383 of 120.40

Cangamble
05-21-2009, 12:25 PM
How were they adjusted? Do you have a link for that? The bettor were not caught until long after they paid out. Did they run them down from tax records? If so, did the ten percenters get paid instead?
http://horseracing.about.com/cs/breederscup/a/aa032003a.htm

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 12:27 PM
http://horseracing.about.com/cs/breederscup/a/aa032003a.htm


Thanks for the link, looks like it was a good day to be a ten percenter. :ThmbUp:

DanG
05-21-2009, 12:40 PM
I watched a teller at the Imperial Palace betting a live harness race around the far turn. Ironically enough he lost the race and borrowed money from my brother to cover his drawer. I was told it was “rare”, but it did happen.

Our entire betting system is so manual in many respects is beyond frightening. This doesn’t even begin to mention the likes of the young child who hacked deep into the Pentagon files.

You lock the betting 1 full minute (or whatever the simulcast dump takes) BEFORE the starter trips the gate. If a late scratch happens, they are backed out and betting is resumed for a specific amount of time and once again betting is LOCKED at one minute. Not one single price should change after they send…period.

Players will get shut out…oh well; they will get used to the rules and wager accordingly.

Go Baby Go… :bang:

Hank
05-21-2009, 01:19 PM
It will be very interesting to see the affect on Penn's handle going forward,I will never bet a dime at Penn again.

proximity
05-21-2009, 01:36 PM
• E Mail: fred.lipkin@pngaming.com

• Phone: 717-469-2211

i don't think lipkin has had anything to do with the racing side of the operation for quite awhile. indeed i don't think anyone is minding the store so to speak. there is a guy named rob marella (sp) who holds a title "director of racing" or something though.

DanG
05-21-2009, 01:44 PM
i don't think lipkin has had anything to do with the racing side of the operation for quite awhile. indeed i don't think anyone is minding the store so to speak. there is a guy named rob marella (sp) who holds a title "director of racing" or something though.
Thanks Prox;

To be honest I wouldn’t know one from another, I just copied something from their website.

Maybe we can bomb their fax machine until the paper costs bankrupt the company. :jump:

I think a great poster [Chickenhead] said it best in situations like this a while back…”I like pudding” :eek:

proximity
05-21-2009, 01:59 PM
The Racing Channel shows a consolation double and a pick 3 payoff in their results. Did you get paid the consolation or a refund?


he could have backwheeled the 2nd race winner with 3 horses, hit the double, and still lost money!! it is a travesty. he should definitely be paid for this....

trying2win
05-21-2009, 02:01 PM
I haven't bet Penn National for a long time. And I won't in the future, unless Penn National compensates the bettors of winning tickets fairly on Race 2 from Wed. May 20/09. I've decided because of this latest debacle there, that I'm in favor of a boycott of this racetrack.

I've seen some PA members create BOYCOTT avatars before. Can you create a new one for us that want to display it here? Let's hit Penn National hard where it hurts...in the parimutuel wallet. I say it's time to take a stand for fairness.

Thanks,

T2W
----------------------------------------------------------------------
~"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

--Martin Luther King Jr.

Niko
05-21-2009, 02:23 PM
I watched a teller at the Imperial Palace betting a live harness race around the far turn. Ironically enough he lost the race and borrowed money from my brother to cover his drawer. I was told it was “rare”, but it did happen.

Our entire betting system is so manual in many respects is beyond frightening. This doesn’t even begin to mention the likes of the young child who hacked deep into the Pentagon files.

You lock the betting 1 full minute (or whatever the simulcast dump takes) BEFORE the starter trips the gate. If a late scratch happens, they are backed out and betting is resumed for a specific amount of time and once again betting is LOCKED at one minute. Not one single price should change after they send…period.

Players will get shut out…oh well; they will get used to the rules and wager accordingly.

Go Baby Go… :bang:

Amen!! I tried to play Canterbury live this last weekend. I bet a brand new supertrainer horse at 3-1 to post-was the 2nd fav. Luckily I won by a nose but the horse that almost beat him went off as the fav-and wasn't in the top 2 at post. Worked out because I got almost 7-2. Another race which I lost, horse was 10-1 (I know because I was going to bet) at or near post and won at 5-1. I tried to bet CBY again this year. Next time if I want to bother I'll take a camera and shoot before and after. I just don't have the time. I have to make time though or just throw in the towel.

If the bets are locked at the track this would be the result of an ADW, they're the best handicappers I've ever seen in my life!!

These horses did not stand out on anything according to Bris, CJ or HTR. All too common occurrence.

Cangamble
05-21-2009, 02:26 PM
Communication router to blame.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/tote-failures-where-is-plan-b/

Not sure what that means in English:)

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 03:02 PM
that they could not diferentiate what time the bets came in last night.

that is pure BBBBBBBBSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. he reccomended penn national not to pay me my money.

i worked in a track that had UNITED TOTE almost 10 years ago, and every single bet that came into that track was time stamped.

i am on this board happy that not to many others got taken for a ride on the reading last night and passed go without the $200. i was the stupid one.

penn national gaming will pay for this scam, they are scumbag liars. i hope pace don't accuse me of name calling on this one, but i am being on the nice side.

takeout
05-21-2009, 04:55 PM
i hope pace don't accuse me of name calling on this one, but i am being on the nice side.If it's true it's not name calling.

Can’t some kind of lawsuits be brought against tote companies and tracks that don’t/won’t do the right thing??? I’m not a big bettor but I would gladly contribute decently to such an effort. Obviously this type of blatant theft of winners’ tickets will continue and never be made right until some sort of action is taken. If some tracks and tote companies are so ethically challenged that they can’t figure out what the right thing to do in a situation like this is, then maybe a few lawsuits might help to clear their minds.

jballscalls
05-21-2009, 05:52 PM
If it's true it's not name calling.

Can’t some kind of lawsuits be brought against tote companies and tracks that don’t/won’t do the right thing??? I’m not a big bettor but I would gladly contribute decently to such an effort. Obviously this type of blatant theft of winners’ tickets will continue and never be made right until some sort of action is taken. If some tracks and tote companies are so ethically challenged that they can’t figure out what the right thing to do in a situation like this is, then maybe a few lawsuits might help to clear their minds.

you realize incidents like this cost the track lots of money and deservedly costs them lots of customers, you realize this is the last thing they want to happen right?

lamboguy
05-21-2009, 06:00 PM
If it's true it's not name calling.

Can’t some kind of lawsuits be brought against tote companies and tracks that don’t/won’t do the right thing??? I’m not a big bettor but I would gladly contribute decently to such an effort. Obviously this type of blatant theft of winners’ tickets will continue and never be made right until some sort of action is taken. If some tracks and tote companies are so ethically challenged that they can’t figure out what the right thing to do in a situation like this is, then maybe a few lawsuits might help to clear their minds. i hate to tell you guys what is behind this whole deal. these casino company's got their slot licenses based on them running race meets. race meets are no longer profitable because they have scared everyone away from the game. these racino's would like nothing more than keep the doors open for slot machines and throwout the horses. everyone knows that there is betting after the bell has rung. the tracks sweep it under the rug as long as they can, because they could care less about the horsemen or the people that bet the horses, they don't want or need us.

all these casino people want to do is take the most amount of money away from the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time with the least anount of effort involved to get it.

dutchboy
05-21-2009, 07:29 PM
1. I seem to recall years ago that either Meadowlands or Monmouth would lock the betting at the same time the first horse entered the gate. Seems like this would be easy for every track to do and would reduce some of the funny stuff.

2. About 10 years ago I was in Fargo, ND to bet the Ky Dby and overhead a conversation. The GM at Penn was to have said at a meeting with the horsemen at Penn "We know you are fixing the races but try to leave the last 3 races alone for the public"

jballscalls
05-21-2009, 07:42 PM
just got Penn's notice in an email regarding the race, basically just explained what happened, what errors occurred and why and how they came to the decision to refund. i'm sure it's available from them or their website if you ask.

Cangamble
05-21-2009, 07:52 PM
just got Penn's notice in an email regarding the race, basically just explained what happened, what errors occurred and why and how they came to the decision to refund. i'm sure it's available from them or their website if you ask.
From the site:
TOTE COMMUNICATIONS PROBLEM CAUSES 2ND RACE WAGERS REFUND ON WEDNESDAY, MAY 20

- May 21, 2009 - 6:23 PM

GRANTVILLE, PA… A communications router failure at the main wagering hub for Penn National Race Course caused race number two (2) on Wednesday, May 20 to be refunded in its entirety. A total of $152,712.76 was refunded to guests on and off-track.

“The main communications router linking Penn National to its Portland, Oregon wagering hub maintained by United Tote went down right before or right at the start of race number two last night” said Rob Marella, Director of Racing. “This prevented the judges stop-wagering function to not work and the standard back-up procedure of the on-site tote operator also was not able to function” added Marella.

The router backup was initiated but can take from 1-2 minutes to restart all links. More than four minutes elapsed from the start of the race until the mutuel pools were actually closed at all pari-mutuel outlets wagering on race number two at Penn National.

“From our initial discussions with United Tote there was an indication that wagers were made after the start of the race. While we were only able to see individual wagers from within our own United Tote network there was a strong probability that wagers were also made at other outlets after the start of the race as well,” said Marella “The process of being able to identify all such wagers would have taken a significant amount of time and still may not have fully identified all such wagers given discrepancies on time stamps from different tote companies - therefore, a decision was made by Penn National management to refund all wagers on the race.”

“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular but we felt that given the information at that time and the potential of not identifying all such potential past post wagers that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”

Penn National also immediately notified the Thoroughbred Racing and Protective Bureau (TRPB) Wagering Integrity unit and the Pennsylvania State Horse Racing Commission regarding the matter and is assisting with any information requests and inquiries.

While the race was never made official nor prices ever calculated for the race, there was confusion as to information indicating the race was official. “A judges inquiry was called on the race and placed on the tote board, however, there was erroneous information given verbally and graphically that the race was official”, said Marella. “This was not the case and we apologize for the confusion. We are very cognizant of the recent issues regarding ‘past posting’ and we feel strongly in terms of providing transparency regarding the issues involved and the decisions made regarding this matter.”

The Judge
05-21-2009, 09:28 PM
All that is new is we now know a router failed at Portland. We know something went wrong so this doesn't help much.

A judges inquiry was placed on the board , however "erroneous information was given verbally and graphically that the race was official". What does that mean who can give information that a race is official, anybody at the track thats not busy at the moment? The parking lot attendant the program sales lady, who. Who said the race was official and why?

"Graphically" you mean just as the "inquiry" was "graphically" displayed so it counts but the "official graphically displayed" sign does count.

Weak as dishwater. Pay up!

The Judge
05-21-2009, 09:46 PM
Does " not" count

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 09:48 PM
This is what i don't get.

Someone knows exactly when the race ran to the second. Aren't they supposed to pay off all the people who can PROVE they bet BEFORE the race?

If you were a person who bet after the race started, wouldn't there be a time stamp on your ticket indicating that you bet too late?

I think that the winners would prefer getting the lower prices rather than their money back. The losing bettors wouldn't care because they lost, it doesnt' matter to them if people bet after the race ran, it didn't affect the losers one bit.

Rook
05-21-2009, 09:53 PM
Here is my response to PEN's press release:

“The process of being able to identify all such wagers would have taken a significant amount of time ..."
So what? If you had the slightest bit of integrity, you would have taken the time to identify who had legitimate winning tickets and paid them regardless if it took all night. Quite simply, there is nothing more important.

"still may not have fully identified all such wagers given discrepancies on time stamps from different tote companies"
So what? Any company with an understanding of public relations would have erred on the side of generosity and made sure that winners got paid regardless if there were some false positives. Winning bettors should not be expected to subsidize incompetence and a failure to modernize equipment.

“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular but we felt ... that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”
This is what happens when you have management that has no clue about their customers. If this guy had any experience as a horseplayer, he would know how completely enraged someone would feel getting ripped off in this manner.

Since they have no clue, I am going to help them out. From my ADW reports, I know the exact amount I have bet over the past year at PEN: $245,507. If I am not properly paid for my winning ticket, over the next year, I am going to bet a grand total of $0.

I hope HANA recognizes that PEN deserves to be a serious candidate for a horseplayer boycott.

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 10:04 PM
Here is my response to PEN's press release:

“The process of being able to identify all such wagers would have taken a significant amount of time ..."
So what? If you had the slightest bit of integrity, you would have taken the time to identify who had legitimate winning tickets and paid them regardless if it took all night. Quite simply, there is nothing more important.

"still may not have fully identified all such wagers given discrepancies on time stamps from different tote companies"
So what? Any company with an understanding of public relations would have erred on the side of generosity and made sure that winners got paid regardless if there were some false positives. Winning bettors should not be expected to subsidize incompetence and a failure to modernize equipment.

“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular but we felt ... that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”
This is what happens when you have management that has no clue about their customers. If this guy had any experience as a horseplayer, he would know how completely enraged someone would feel getting ripped off in this manner.

Since they have no clue, I am going to help them out. From my ADW reports, I know the exact amount I have bet over the past year at PEN: $245,507. If I am not properly paid for my winning ticket, over the next year, I am going to bet a grand total of $0.

I hope HANA recognizes that PEN deserves to be a serious candidate for a horseplayer boycott.

Great post. HANA needs to step up to the plate here. Ever heard of PETA? They send people to stand in front of places with signs. This is unacceptable, we need to vilify Penn National until they make this right.

Rookies
05-21-2009, 10:31 PM
100% agreed !

Attempts should be made to get this putrid smell into the DRF.

Fry them up good...

A very bad piece of biz here, obviously managed by incompetents !

chickenhead
05-21-2009, 10:35 PM
I had a guest blog post on HANA urging players to quit playing Pennsylvania tracks about 3 months ago. Penn has usurous takeout rates, enormous slot subsidies, and obviously does not care about anyone here.

There is no need to have some conditional boycott, depending on whether Penn ends up paying some small percentage of the players effected by this snafu (all of the on track folks are SOL, there is zero chance they get anything).

They screw players over every day in every race for literally millions more than this with the takeout rate that most of the players there end up paying. If we're looking for solidarity -- solidarity against the common every day screw job tactics they employ on most of their bettors should have kicked in long ago.

No conditional boycott is required -- just quit playing Penn. They don't deserve to be played -- they didn't deserve to be played last week, don't deserve it this week, and won't deserve it next week -- no matter what they do about this issue.

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 10:38 PM
I had a guest blog post on HANA urging players to quit playing Pennsylvania tracks about 3 months ago. Penn has usurous takeout rates, enormous slot subsidies, and obviously does not care about anyone here.

There is no need to have some conditional boycott, depending on whether Penn ends up paying some small percentage of the players effected by this snafu (all of the on track folks are SOL, there is zero chance they get anything).

They screw players over every day in every race for literally millions more than this with the takeout rate that most of the players there end up paying. If we're looking for solidarity -- solidarity against the common every day screw job tactics they employ on most of their bettors should have kicked in long ago.

No conditional boycott is required -- just quit playing Penn. They don't deserve to be played -- they didn't deserve to be played last week, don't deserve it this week, and won't deserve it next week -- no matter what they do about this issue.

Good post, couldn't agree more.

cj
05-21-2009, 10:54 PM
you realize incidents like this cost the track lots of money and deservedly costs them lots of customers, you realize this is the last thing they want to happen right?

In this case, I think it saved them money. Otherwise, they have to cancel the rest of the card while the mess is sorted out.

cj
05-21-2009, 10:56 PM
“This prevented the judges stop-wagering function to not work and ...

Can anyone put this in English?

Marlin
05-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Very interesting topic. I've personally benefited from this situation. However I do have a few questions...

1) Because race 1 was official and apparently went off well, why was the double not paid? They refund Super pools every day because of late scratches and do not refund all pools. Why would they refund all pools when it would be possible to save one?

2) When tote systems go down racetracks have submitted insurance claims. Why could winners not be included in these policies and claims?

3) Why do racing officials give ten different answers to the same question? Even if there is no larceny the perception is obviously perpetuated. Advice: DO NOT ASSUME ALL GAMBLERS ARE DUMB! IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER DONT ANSWER THE ******* QUESTION!

In conclusion.... It boggles my mind! I am perplexed.

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 11:10 PM
Very interesting topic. I've personally benefited from this situation. However I do have a few questions...

1) Because race 1 was official and apparently went off well, why was the double not paid? They refund Super pools every day because of late scratches and do not refund all pools. Why would they refund all pools when it would be possible to save one?

2) When tote systems go down racetracks have submitted insurance claims. Why could winners not be included in these policies and claims?

3) Why do racing officials give ten different answers to the same question? Even if there is no larceny the perception is obviously perpetuated. Advice: DO NOT ASSUME ALL GAMBLERS ARE DUMB! IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER DONT ANSWER THE ******* QUESTION!

In conclusion.... It boggles my mind! I am perplexed.

No reason the Double wasnt paid off Winner/ALL

njcurveball
05-21-2009, 11:13 PM
I had a guest blog post on HANA urging players to quit playing Pennsylvania tracks about 3 months ago. Penn has usurous takeout rates, enormous slot subsidies, and obviously does not care about anyone here.

There is no need to have some conditional boycott, depending on whether Penn ends up paying some small percentage of the players effected by this snafu (all of the on track folks are SOL, there is zero chance they get anything).



I agree! It sounds a lot like what I posted a long while back. Looks like it would get more support now. :ThmbUp:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41773&highlight=takeout

Marlin
05-21-2009, 11:14 PM
From what I have read, there were no problems with race 1. IMO the double should be paid WINNER/WINNER.

Marlin
05-21-2009, 11:23 PM
Can anyone put this in English?The stewards have a button. One has the responsibility to push the button when the gates open. This button stops betting.

chickenhead
05-21-2009, 11:24 PM
I agree! It sounds a lot like what I posted a long while back. Looks like it would get more support now. :ThmbUp:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41773&highlight=takeout

That was probably banging around in my head somewhere, I know some posts by rrbauer were.

I'd like to see a group come together around the idea that they won't play a pool with a takeout 25% or above. That doesn't seem like too much to ask -- just take less than a quarter out of our bets. It's not temporary, it's forever. All those pools are dead to us, and always will be. Seems like a good place to start.

I'd sign on to that. Oh wait, I already did. :)

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 11:25 PM
From what I have read, there were no problems with race 1. IMO the double should be paid WINNER/WINNER.

True, i didn't think of that, the DD pool is totally seperate and was unaffected, it should be paid off Winner/Winner.

Light
05-21-2009, 11:26 PM
Several years ago,I was not paid for a bet at EMD I made with an offshore account. Another longshot race,just like the Pen one. They claimed I made the bet after the start of the race. I contacted Emd customer service and was given the official time of the start of the race,which was before the time stamp on my virtual ticket. When I presented this to the offshore account,they changed their tune. Now they claimed it was too close to the start of the race. That it needed to be 1 minute before the start of the race. I asked where it stated that in the TOS. No answer.

So I decided to give them bad publicity. I talked all about this on the web site that sponsored them. Everybody was in my sympathy and said they would not sign up or bet with that outfit. Finally their PR rep contacted me and made an agreement with me. She said they would pay me if I shut up. I agreed. Shortly afterwards another incident occured like this,and again they wouldn't pay. I didn't fight it anymore,just quit. This outfit went nowhere fast with their attitude.

You guys got a much taller task than I had. I dont know where or how you can make this known to a wider audience that would care enough to cause the Pen management to reimburse you. The articles about this incident sound considerate to the track,not the bettors. If you really feel strongly, I would take it to court.Remember,if you win,they would have to pay all court costs including your transpotation to the proper jurisdiction and time off from work. I dont know what your legal rights are here,but I would think that when you bought the tickets,you entered into a legal and binding contract on both sides. Since Pen National employes United Tote,it is the Pen management's responsibility or United Tote's responsibility for any malfunction infringing on the contract, not yours. Otherwise,when you lose a race,can you say you had a brain malfunction that caused you to bet the wrong horse and get refunded? Right? Wrong. They put time stamps on tickets for a reason and this is one of them.

The racetrack puts out a product like any other business puts out a product. If you purchase their goods,they are responsible for their product. Yes,the track loses money when they refund everyone. But that's their own stupidity. They simply dont know how to deal with these problems. Believe me,if they got enough lawsuits on this kind of thing,you'd be amazed how fast they would come up with a more consumer friendly resolution to these disputes.

Imriledup
05-21-2009, 11:40 PM
Several years ago,I was not paid for a bet at EMD I made with an offshore account. Another longshot race,just like the Pen one. They claimed I made the bet after the start of the race. I contacted Emd customer service and was given the official time of the start of the race,which was before the time stamp on my virtual ticket. When I presented this to the offshore account,they changed their tune. Now they claimed it was too close to the start of the race. That it needed to be 1 minute before the start of the race. I asked where it stated that in the TOS. No answer.

So I decided to give them bad publicity. I talked all about this on the web site that sponsored them. Everybody was in my sympathy and said they would not sign up or bet with that outfit. Finally their PR rep contacted me and made an agreement with me. She said they would pay me if I shut up. I agreed. Shortly afterwards another incident occured like this,and again they wouldn't pay. I didn't fight it anymore,just quit. This outfit went nowhere fast with their attitude.

You guys got a much taller task than I had. I dont know where or how you can make this known to a wider audience that would care enough to cause the Pen management to reimburse you. The articles about this incident sound considerate to the track,not the bettors. If you really feel strongly, I would take it to court.Remember,if you win,they would have to pay all court costs including your transpotation to the proper jurisdiction and time off from work. I dont know what your legal rights are here,but I would think that when you bought the tickets,you entered into a legal and binding contract on both sides. Since Pen National employes United Tote,it is the Pen management's responsibility or United Tote's responsibility for any malfunction infringing on the contract, not yours. Otherwise,when you lose a race,can you say you had a brain malfunction that caused you to bet the wrong horse and get refunded? Right? Wrong. They put time stamps on tickets for a reason and this is one of them.

The racetrack puts out a product like any other business puts out a product. If you purchase their goods,they are responsible for their product. Yes,the track loses money when they refund everyone. But that's their own stupidity. They simply dont know how to deal with these problems. Believe me,if they got enough lawsuits on this kind of thing,you'd be amazed how fast they would come up with a more consumer friendly resolution to these disputes.

Another awesome post.

how about this idea. Lets rent a billboard near penn national calling them a disgrace and how they ripped off the horseplayers. If a few of us just pool a few bucks together, im sure we can afford that billboard.

Or, take out a full page ad in the DRF on belmont stakes day denouncing Penn National and their shady and unethical practices.

The Judge
05-21-2009, 11:45 PM
if the details could be worked out and its cost is reasonable, either billboard or add would be O.K with me. Would prefer a group like HANA to handle the action but I can understand if they declined or felt something different were in order.

Rook
05-21-2009, 11:49 PM
I am very pleased to see the total handle at Pen tonight. Last Thursday, they took in $980k over 9 races. Last Friday, $1.101 million over 10 races. Tonight, they dropped down 20% from last Thursday to $780k. They lost my typical $4k a card, so I would just like to thank all of you who helped in the witholding of the other $196k.

This sends a very clear message to Pen's clueless management that they can't take horseplayers for granted.

The Judge
05-21-2009, 11:58 PM
just how much bad luck can you have at one track in one race? Not only did the router fail in Portland but at Penn the official sign went up when it wasn't official.

Are you sure these guys should be handling money.

banacek
05-22-2009, 12:58 AM
This is just bush league. It does remind me of a play I made about 25 years ago. I had $120 in doubles keying a 7-2 shot in the first race. As he crosses the line well ahead, the announcer (Richard Grunder if my memory serves me correctly) states that the Daily Double has been cancelled. They apparently lost only the double wagering info. I was incensed....pay me 7-2 on my $120..heck give me 5-2. Nope..got my money back and would have had a $30 double with the horse in the second. I actually felt like quitting the horses.

InsideThePylons-MW
05-22-2009, 01:34 AM
I know this has already been touched upon but to sum it all up......

Neither Penn National or Scientific Games cares at all about what happened to the bettors as long as it doesn't blow up into some type of PR avalanche which costs them a large amount of money to make it go away.


That's the problem with racing and why it is in a tailspin.

proximity
05-22-2009, 01:58 AM
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular but we felt that given the information at that time and the potential of not identifying all such potential past post wagers that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”



don't know how marella could think this was the "fairest" option to the bettors, let alone the company? some jobs definitely need to be lost over this....

Imriledup
05-22-2009, 01:59 AM
I know this has already been touched upon but to sum it all up......

Neither Penn National or Scientific Games cares at all about what happened to the bettors as long as it doesn't blow up into some type of PR avalanche which costs them a large amount of money to make it go away.


That's the problem with racing and why it is in a tailspin.

Hopefully this will blow up into a PR nightmare. If some of the posters in this thread have any say, this isn't going away anytime soon.

Nor, should it.

DeanT
05-22-2009, 02:18 AM
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line


Serendipitously, Platt had wagered on the second race at Penn National just prior to our interview Wednesday night. He was all set to collect 10-1 on the winner, Twodoorsdown. The race had been declared with an advisory that prices were pending.

As Platt awaited the prices, he noticed the winner’s odds drop from 10-1, 9-1, 8-1 and 7-1. After a delay of approximately 20 minutes, the race was declared a non-betting event and refunds were made on all wagers, including winning bets made prior to post time.

“The stop-wagering mechanisms are not being received from the tracks [in a timely fashion].”

“This happens more often than people think. Everyone’s finding out more about these developments because people are speaking up. The industry needs to pay somebody to create a modern and secure tote system.”

Platt is a programmer by trade and spoke with a number of experts in his field. The bad news is that the cost would be very high. He has been given estimates in the $250-to-$300 million range.

With a combined national annual handle of over $14-billion, the high cost unfortunately is price of doing business. It would be in the interests of all tracks and simulcast venues to pay their fair share based on handle.

CurtisontheBay
05-22-2009, 07:17 AM
Several years ago,I was not paid for a bet at EMD I made with an offshore account. Another longshot race,just like the Pen one. They claimed I made the bet after the start of the race. I contacted Emd customer service and was given the official time of the start of the race,which was before the time stamp on my virtual ticket. When I presented this to the offshore account,they changed their tune. Now they claimed it was too close to the start of the race. That it needed to be 1 minute before the start of the race. I asked where it stated that in the TOS. No answer.

So I decided to give them bad publicity. I talked all about this on the web site that sponsored them. Everybody was in my sympathy and said they would not sign up or bet with that outfit. Finally their PR rep contacted me and made an agreement with me. She said they would pay me if I shut up. I agreed. Shortly afterwards another incident occured like this,and again they wouldn't pay. I didn't fight it anymore,just quit. This outfit went nowhere fast with their attitude.

You guys got a much taller task than I had. I dont know where or how you can make this known to a wider audience that would care enough to cause the Pen management to reimburse you. The articles about this incident sound considerate to the track,not the bettors. If you really feel strongly, I would take it to court.Remember,if you win,they would have to pay all court costs including your transpotation to the proper jurisdiction and time off from work. I dont know what your legal rights are here,but I would think that when you bought the tickets,you entered into a legal and binding contract on both sides. Since Pen National employes United Tote,it is the Pen management's responsibility or United Tote's responsibility for any malfunction infringing on the contract, not yours. Otherwise,when you lose a race,can you say you had a brain malfunction that caused you to bet the wrong horse and get refunded? Right? Wrong. They put time stamps on tickets for a reason and this is one of them.

The racetrack puts out a product like any other business puts out a product. If you purchase their goods,they are responsible for their product. Yes,the track loses money when they refund everyone. But that's their own stupidity. They simply dont know how to deal with these problems. Believe me,if they got enough lawsuits on this kind of thing,you'd be amazed how fast they would come up with a more consumer friendly resolution to these disputes.

What am I missing ? If the race started before you wagered, why would they pay ??

Sweeney
05-22-2009, 09:12 AM
I can add even more fuel to this outrage -- I was at one of the Philadelphia Park Turf Clubs on Wednesday night when this happened.

Like Lamboguy, I also had a live, winning Double ticket. When the tote results were delayed more than 10 minutes, I knew something was amiss, but the video feed from Penn was showing the tote board, and had a message to the effect of "Tote Delay - prices will be up shortly".

So, I waited. The video shot of the tote board, and the message, stayed there for a long time, maybe 20 minutes or more. Finally the video changed, but it simply went straight to the live odds of the third race. Never, at any time, did Penn National ever put up an announcement on their video screen that wagers had been refunded.

I tried to cash the Double ticket, but the teller said that he was getting a weird message, and that I should try later. I did try later, but it still wasn't cashable.

I called Penn National's mutuel office on Thursday night. I spoke to a nice woman, who did apologize, but offered nothing else to make amends; in fact, she seemed to want to get me off the phone as soon as possible. She said that the track announcer had made a statement about wagers being refunded, but she confirmed that at no time was there ever an announcement on the video feed.

She also informed me that there had been a consolation Double payout of $5.80, which was news to me, since I had checked the results online, and neither the Equibase nor the DRF results showed a consolation Double payout.

Despite the fact that I lost a few bucks on the Double payout, I'm not really upset with Penn National for cancelling all wagers -- it's the right thing to do if monkey business was discovered in the pools, and I'm guessing it would have taken days to attempt to sort out which wagers were good and which ones were not, if it was even possible. My disgust is purely how they handled the situation, and their boldfaced lack of communication to simulcasting bettors and outlets.

While Penn National is magnanimously claiming to have refunded $150,000+ in wagers on the race, the fact is that I'm sure a large portion of those tickets will never be refunded, and the track's poor handling of this situation is unconscionable. It's absolutely time for us to band together as horseplayers, and demand more respect as patrons!

rrbauer
05-22-2009, 09:25 AM
Here's a snip from the Blood Horse story (link on PA Home Page):

"Marella said the router backup was initiated, but it can take one to two minutes to restart all links. More than four minutes elapsed from the start of the race until the mutuel pools were closed at all wagering outlets, he said.

“From our initial discussions with United Tote, there was an indication that wagers were made after the start of the race,” Marella said. While we were only able to see individual wagers from within our own United Tote network, there was a strong probability that wagers were also made at other outlets after the start of the race as well.

“The process of being able to identify all such wagers would have taken a significant amount of time, and still may not have fully identified all such wagers given discrepancies on time stamps from different tote companies. Therefore, a decision was made by Penn National management to refund all wagers on the race."

End of snip

Translation: The failure ocurred,

1. Because they did not have any redundancy in their network to automatically switch to (technical term is "to fail over") when their router went down. And,
2. Because the tote network evidently does not use NTP (Network Time Protocol) to synchronize time-stamp settings across their variety of platforms they have a mish-mash of different date/time stamps.

We can expect this kind of crap to go on, and on, and on, and on. Redundancy across critical network links and use of NTP where accurate time information is needed, is pretty basic stuff. If they can't get that right, what makes anyone think that a redesigned, realtime network is even within their grasp from a competence perspective...regardless of cost?

lamboguy
05-22-2009, 12:02 PM
i just spoke for the first time to my adw, they said it was a terrible injustice of what happened to me wednesday night. they said they are going to bat to get me my money, or they MIGHT pay it out of their own pockets if their efforts fail, which i suspect will at this time.

takeout
05-22-2009, 12:21 PM
http://www.pennnational.com/headlines/news/1242944583.shtml

[snip]
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular, but we felt that given the information at that time and the potential of not identifying all such potential past-post wagers, that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”
[snip]

Comment: "Option? OPTION? The only option here was to do the right thing or screw your customers. They chose the latter because it was too much trouble for them to do the right thing. Heaven forbid they should have to check the time on some f*****’ tickets. They should be shut down for this. :mad:

Light
05-22-2009, 01:08 PM
What am I missing ? If the race started before you wagered, why would they pay ??

The word you underlined should be after.Details,details.

lamboguy
05-22-2009, 01:09 PM
http://www.pennnational.com/headlines/news/1242944583.shtml

[snip]
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular, but we felt that given the information at that time and the potential of not identifying all such potential past-post wagers, that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”
[snip]

Comment: "Option? OPTION? The only option here was to do the right thing or screw your customers. They chose the latter because it was too much trouble for them to do the right thing. Heaven forbid they should have to check the time on some f*****’ tickets. They should be shut down for this. :mad:

with all due respect to whoever rote that malarchy, my adw saw what time i made my bet, and they paid me without press release.

how come they can do it and the guy accepting the bets can't?

i honestly believe they had one of their friends take a huge shot at something and derived away of giving him or her back their losing bets.

penn national and or united tote can come out with press releases from here to king buck too, i have no chance in life of having any faith at all in what they are saying.

Light
05-22-2009, 01:19 PM
with all due respect to whoever rote that malarchy, my adw saw what time i made my bet, and they paid me without press release.


Your ADW paid you the $800 you were owed by Penn? Who is your ADW?

Steve 'StatMan'
05-22-2009, 02:01 PM
http://www.pennnational.com/headlines/news/1242944583.shtml

[snip]
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular, but we felt that given the information at that time and the potential of not identifying all such potential past-post wagers, that the fairest option to all bettors was this option.”
[snip]

Comment: "Option? OPTION? The only option here was to do the right thing or screw your customers. They chose the latter because it was too much trouble for them to do the right thing. Heaven forbid they should have to check the time on some f*****’ tickets. They should be shut down for this. :mad:

Yeah! I'm sure the winners, given the option of waiting a few days for their winnings vs. only getting a refund - I'm sure most have plenty of time to wait. If DD refunded, or even consolations, that's not fair, that pool was closed for the first race, not race two. The race itself wasn't affected. Declaring a non-betting event and refunding that money is plain wrong. The Race 1-2-3 pick 3 was paid, with ALL in the 2nd leg. Again, nothing was wrong with the race itself. Why should those with truly correct tickets get cheated because of a laxidasical decision. If this were a financial instituion like a bank, the salaried staff would be working unpaid overtime for however long it took to correct the problem. There are computer files, once you know where the data came from and what the valid time frams are, you can separate the good from the bad, calculate the correct totals and payoff and make them, and refund the late tickets, or the ones too close to call. But not the whole darn pool plus taint the payoffs from other races with properly closed pools and properly run races. Yes, this was quite an injustice. I had no bets on the card, but am incensed that they took the easy way out which had the same effect - intended or not - that they just didn't care to do it right.

I can't bet this track anymore. Not now.

Do these same management people make decisions for their other track, Charles Town? What about all their casino properties?

takeout
05-22-2009, 02:04 PM
i honestly believe they had one of their friends take a huge shot at something and derived away of giving him or her back their losing bets.At this point NOTHING would surprise me.

Penn National has lost ALL credibility over this, along with the tote company and whoever else that doesn’t pay up. There are NO EXCUSES for this. When you book bets you pay the winners. You don't wait until they win and then decide to give them a refund. If we let this just fade away it will only get worse.

proximity
05-22-2009, 02:23 PM
with all due respect to whoever rote that malarchy, my adw saw what time i made my bet, and they paid me without press release.
.

great to hear you got paid !! :jump:

does this mean you're not going to shut down the casino tonight?:)

njcurveball
05-22-2009, 02:25 PM
with all due respect to whoever rote that malarchy, my adw saw what time i made my bet, and they paid me without press release.

.

You are talking about the double, correct? How much was the payoff? And did they pay other people the consolation? If so, they are one heck of an ADW, since they probably took a loss. And along those lines, if they did do this, then they did it out of their own pocket, which is probably against the law, so better we do not know who they are.

keilan
05-22-2009, 02:41 PM
The BIG question for me is why wouldn't those investigating be most concerned with the people who are past posting tickets?

Wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to determine those person's intent?

takeout
05-22-2009, 02:50 PM
But not the whole darn pool plus taint the payoffs from other races with properly closed pools and properly run races. Yes, this was quite an injustice.Excellent post! Sounds like this thing is even screwier than I thought.

Steve 'StatMan'
05-22-2009, 03:02 PM
In the modern, ADW era, there could be far more unintentional past posting than in past eras. If one isn't viewing the video - or that ADW does not offer video, and are getting your bets in and the screen says 0 MTP but doesn't say the race is off & the pool is closed, one could be putting their bets in thinking they are just barely making the deadline, when in fact the race could be off. One could be putting in bets on horses and combos other than the winner, or with bad starts, etc. unlike those who can see the race and (we usually fear) see the start if not the result so they can take advantage of it.

I know just yesterday I had gotten to my computer later than I wanted, got my browsers started and adw and other screens opened up, and saw there was 0 min to post. I didn't bother to start the video, I just found my numbers from my analysis and placed the bets. Only a few seconds later the screen said 'Off', but my bets were in. I assume the race closed properly - and my bets lost. Even if I saw the video, there are lag times, so the video views of the start are not a true indicator of the real off-time for those betting from home. If the steward hit the close pool button a second or two too late after the gate opened, maybe fumbled with the switch or something, I'd have no idea whether I past posted or not. We all are forced to trust that those running the system are doing things right, and that the system is working right, and when something goes wrong, those in charge do the right thing for the bettors regarding properly placed wagers.

I don't know if they can catch all who intentionally place past-post wagers, obviously those on winning combinations are clues, esp. when when at least 1 minute after the supposed start time of the race.

lamboguy
05-22-2009, 03:09 PM
Your ADW paid you the $800 you were owed by Penn? Who is your ADW?

i have no idea if they paid anyone else, i am a good customer of the place and they are on of the larger adw's. i know that they didn't take away the loser's refund either, they just found it wrong what penn national did to me and they decided to take the high road on the deal, penn national decided to take the opposite direction

njcurveball
05-22-2009, 03:12 PM
I don't know if they can catch all who intentionally place past-post wagers, obviously those on winning combinations are clues, esp. when when at least 1 minute after the supposed start time of the race.

It is really easy to tell when someone has an ADW record of boxing 3 horses for $2 and then all of a sudden a mysterious "after post time" bet comes in for $50 or $100 with 2 horses cold.

If the ADW had paid out too much, does anyone wonder how much time they would spend auditing records?

I would guarantee that anyone who has built an access database could take the records and find the most likely suspects for larceny here. If the time stamps are more than a few seconds off then all of the workers who built the system should be fired, seriously. There are many different ways to align time in a global market with computers. Even a high school kid could do it.

The entire incident is a red flag to the Horse racing industry that the problems are so much larger than what we have been told. The technology so much more vulnerable. :ThmbDown:

And the excuses so much more lame. If it took 1 to 2 minutes to "get back on line" why were they still taking bets 4 minutes after the fact? If a router went down in Oregon, why can't people in Grantville throw a switch to cut off betting at their own track? :ThmbDown:

keilan
05-22-2009, 03:20 PM
In the modern, ADW era, there could be far more unintentional past posting than in past eras. If one isn't viewing the video - or that ADW does not offer video, and are getting your bets in and the screen says 0 MTP but doesn't say the race is off & the pool is closed, one could be putting their bets in thinking they are just barely making the deadline, when in fact the race could be off. One could be putting in bets on horses and combos other than the winner, or with bad starts, etc. unlike those who can see the race and (we usually fear) see the start if not the result so they can take advantage of it.

I know just yesterday I had gotten to my computer later than I wanted, got my browsers started and adw and other screens opened up, and saw there was 0 min to post. I didn't bother to start the video, I just found my numbers from my analysis and placed the bets. Only a few seconds later the screen said 'Off', but my bets were in. I assume the race closed properly - and my bets lost. Even if I saw the video, there are lag times, so the video views of the start are not a true indicator of the real off-time for those betting from home. If the steward hit the close pool button a second or two too late after the gate opened, maybe fumbled with the switch or something, I'd have no idea whether I past posted or not. We all are forced to trust that those running the system are doing things right, and that the system is working right, and when something goes wrong, those in charge do the right thing for the bettors regarding properly placed wagers.

I don't know if they can catch all who intentionally place past-post wagers, obviously those on winning combinations are clues, esp. when when at least 1 minute after the supposed start time of the race.


Steve your point is well taken but I'm talking about the guys that are wagering large sums on very specific horse combination's, the guy that's betting $2 or $10 isn't someone I'm concerned with.

The wagers that don't smell right, most of us could recognize those wagers in a heart beat.

takeout
05-22-2009, 04:13 PM
Do these same management people make decisions for their other track, Charles Town? What about all their casino properties?I don’t know but I certainly hope not. I’m sure Charles Town is quite capable of making its own screwed up decisions. :)

Remember the not so long ago superfecta payout screw up? (There were winners that had all four but the track paid it out on “all”.) Wasn’t a whole lot of dough but a lot of people got screwed on that one too. Isn’t it nice when the public actually gets to hear about one of these? I think some employees had to sign paper saying they wouldn’t talk about it. This “keep it hushed up” disease seems to be industry wide.

I actually go there off and on and I don’t know what the heck is going on. Their main concern seems to be landscaping. The end must be near – at least for us.

Imriledup
05-22-2009, 05:09 PM
I can add even more fuel to this outrage -- I was at one of the Philadelphia Park Turf Clubs on Wednesday night when this happened.

Like Lamboguy, I also had a live, winning Double ticket. When the tote results were delayed more than 10 minutes, I knew something was amiss, but the video feed from Penn was showing the tote board, and had a message to the effect of "Tote Delay - prices will be up shortly".

So, I waited. The video shot of the tote board, and the message, stayed there for a long time, maybe 20 minutes or more. Finally the video changed, but it simply went straight to the live odds of the third race. Never, at any time, did Penn National ever put up an announcement on their video screen that wagers had been refunded.

I tried to cash the Double ticket, but the teller said that he was getting a weird message, and that I should try later. I did try later, but it still wasn't cashable.

I called Penn National's mutuel office on Thursday night. I spoke to a nice woman, who did apologize, but offered nothing else to make amends; in fact, she seemed to want to get me off the phone as soon as possible. She said that the track announcer had made a statement about wagers being refunded, but she confirmed that at no time was there ever an announcement on the video feed.

She also informed me that there had been a consolation Double payout of $5.80, which was news to me, since I had checked the results online, and neither the Equibase nor the DRF results showed a consolation Double payout.

Despite the fact that I lost a few bucks on the Double payout, I'm not really upset with Penn National for cancelling all wagers -- it's the right thing to do if monkey business was discovered in the pools, and I'm guessing it would have taken days to attempt to sort out which wagers were good and which ones were not, if it was even possible. My disgust is purely how they handled the situation, and their boldfaced lack of communication to simulcasting bettors and outlets.

While Penn National is magnanimously claiming to have refunded $150,000+ in wagers on the race, the fact is that I'm sure a large portion of those tickets will never be refunded, and the track's poor handling of this situation is unconscionable. It's absolutely time for us to band together as horseplayers, and demand more respect as patrons!

So, what if it takes days or even weeks to sort it all out? isn't that the right thing to do?

When the planes crashed into the WTC on 9/11 they spend YEARS putting together the pieces of the puzzle. Every fragment of DNA of every person they found was sorted, cataloged, analyzed and investigated. Every scrap from every plane was analyzed, sorted and cataloged. Penn National can't spend a few days sorting thru every bet to make sure the rightful winners get paid and the past posters do not? Its not like there is a few hundred grand in every pool, this is Penn national, they have 20 grand in bets, it wouldn't take them months to analyze every transaction and make this right. No excuse for throwing up their hands and not doing the right thing. I'm so sick and tired of racetracks not caring about their customers and getting away with it. Lets stop the madness.

Relwob Owner
05-22-2009, 05:10 PM
Yeah! I'm sure the winners, given the option of waiting a few days for their winnings vs. only getting a refund - I'm sure most have plenty of time to wait. If DD refunded, or even consolations, that's not fair, that pool was closed for the first race, not race two. The race itself wasn't affected. Declaring a non-betting event and refunding that money is plain wrong. The Race 1-2-3 pick 3 was paid, with ALL in the 2nd leg. Again, nothing was wrong with the race itself. Why should those with truly correct tickets get cheated because of a laxidasical decision. If this were a financial instituion like a bank, the salaried staff would be working unpaid overtime for however long it took to correct the problem. There are computer files, once you know where the data came from and what the valid time frams are, you can separate the good from the bad, calculate the correct totals and payoff and make them, and refund the late tickets, or the ones too close to call. But not the whole darn pool plus taint the payoffs from other races with properly closed pools and properly run races. Yes, this was quite an injustice. I had no bets on the card, but am incensed that they took the easy way out which had the same effect - intended or not - that they just didn't care to do it right.

I can't bet this track anymore. Not now.

Do these same management people make decisions for their other track, Charles Town? What about all their casino properties?

Steve,

you make great points-it is just absurd. As far as I know, the management at each track reports to the Penn management. The issue(that has been brought up many times) is that Penn only uses the racing as evhicle to get the slot money and as a result, couldnt care less about it....the question I always have is how strong the agreements are that are in place that allow racing to exist. he big concern is that they wait out that agreement and just get rid of the racing, but I would hope the agreements and the state dont let them do that.

At Charlestown, I dont get the sense that the Penn people even check much on what is going on. That is the only way that I can explain some of the things that go on there.

as far as the betting issue that occurred. I wonder if there is some sort of lawyer/law group that would take this on......your question of what would happen if it was a financial institution seems spot on and I would think some lawyer would want to pursue it.

tcasolo
05-22-2009, 05:16 PM
Did they give a total refund for all double bets? Still, you are right. You were entitled to at least a consolation double.


Consolation? I don't think so. You should have been paid every cent you had coming. I cannot believe that the doubles were not paid out. I believe there was a pick 3 also that started in the first race.

Both the early double and the first pick 3 pool was generated during the first race. The screw up during the second race should have NO BEARING on the payouts of the double or the pick 3.

That is horrible that these winners were not paid.

chickenhead
05-22-2009, 05:20 PM
The big concern is that they wait out that agreement and just get rid of the racing, but I would hope the agreements and the state dont let them do that.

Why? They provide a shitty product coupled with shitty customer service. I hope they stop racing tomorrow.

And it might wake some horse people up that slots will not ultimately do anything for them.

Can't get healthy until the dead tissue gets carved away.

The Judge
05-22-2009, 05:48 PM
strong medicine but so what! I am convinced that if the real estate market hadn't collapsed many more tracks would have been sold for a few coins of silver. No matter what you give them they always want more.

Steve 'StatMan'
05-22-2009, 06:40 PM
Thanks guys, and definitely agree, the obvious ones should stick out like a sore thumb. Would expect it to be stacked with only winning combinations at the end of the data from any and all sources, the larger or frequently repeated, the more suspicious.

Relwob Owner
05-22-2009, 07:15 PM
Why? They provide a shitty product coupled with shitty customer service. I hope they stop racing tomorrow.

And it might wake some horse people up that slots will not ultimately do anything for them.

Can't get healthy until the dead tissue gets carved away.

If they stop racing there , it will put an amazing amount of people out of work in many places and will keep people like me from owning horses and doing something they love....slots arent the whole problem. If managed correctly, they can be part of the solution.

You can make a case that the "dead tissue" is the big tracks as well who are managed just as poorly as the tracks with the slots....

Rookies
05-22-2009, 08:06 PM
[snip]
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular, but we felt that given the fact that we are business simpletons...and believe our clients are as well, and the potential of not identifying all such potential past-post wagers, we decided that the fairest option to all bettors was to screw them !.”
[snip]


Yeah! I'm sure the winners, given the option of waiting a few days for their winnings vs. only getting a refund - I'm sure most have plenty of time to wait. If DD refunded, or even consolations, that's not fair, that pool was closed for the first race, not race two. The race itself wasn't affected. Declaring a non-betting event and refunding that money is plain wrong. The Race 1-2-3 pick 3 was paid, with ALL in the 2nd leg. Again, nothing was wrong with the race itself. Why should those with truly correct tickets get cheated because of a laxidasical decision. If this were a financial instituion like a bank, the salaried staff would be working unpaid overtime for however long it took to correct the problem. There are computer files, once you know where the data came from and what the valid time frams are, you can separate the good from the bad, calculate the correct totals and payoff and make them, and refund the late tickets, or the ones too close to call. But not the whole darn pool plus taint the payoffs from other races with properly closed pools and properly run races. Yes, this was quite an injustice. I had no bets on the card, but am incensed that they took the easy way out which had the same effect - intended or not - that they just didn't care to do it right.

Absolutely right, Steve ! Faced with a choice of doing the right thing and using some intelligence to affect the correct decision... we chose deliberately to do NEITHER ! :mad:

Relwob Owner
05-22-2009, 10:06 PM
[snip]
“We understand the decision to refund all wagers was not popular, but we felt that given the fact that we are business simpletons...and believe our clients are as well, and the potential of not identifying all such potential past-post wagers, we decided that the fairest option to all bettors was to screw them !.”
[snip]


Yeah! I'm sure the winners, given the option of waiting a few days for their winnings vs. only getting a refund - I'm sure most have plenty of time to wait. If DD refunded, or even consolations, that's not fair, that pool was closed for the first race, not race two. The race itself wasn't affected. Declaring a non-betting event and refunding that money is plain wrong. The Race 1-2-3 pick 3 was paid, with ALL in the 2nd leg. Again, nothing was wrong with the race itself. Why should those with truly correct tickets get cheated because of a laxidasical decision. If this were a financial instituion like a bank, the salaried staff would be working unpaid overtime for however long it took to correct the problem. There are computer files, once you know where the data came from and what the valid time frams are, you can separate the good from the bad, calculate the correct totals and payoff and make them, and refund the late tickets, or the ones too close to call. But not the whole darn pool plus taint the payoffs from other races with properly closed pools and properly run races. Yes, this was quite an injustice. I had no bets on the card, but am incensed that they took the easy way out which had the same effect - intended or not - that they just didn't care to do it right.

Absolutely right, Steve ! Faced with a choice of doing the right thing and using some intelligence to affect the correct decision... we chose deliberately to do NEITHER ! :mad:


Not sure if I should start a new thread but figured since they are both owned by Penn and both deal with questionable things......in the sixth race at Charlestown, it sure looked like the 9 beat the 3....if anyone saw the race, let me know if I am seeing things.....

Rookies
05-22-2009, 10:37 PM
Not sure if I should start a new thread but figured since they are both owned by Penn and both deal with questionable things......in the sixth race at Charlestown, it sure looked like the 9 beat the 3....if anyone saw the race, let me know if I am seeing things.....

Ok... just watched it. Now, at my age, I have trouble with colours of the saddlecloth numbers ;) but...

1) At normal speed, the 9 beat the 3;
2) At Slo-Mo speed, the 9 went ahead and was never headed by the 3.
3) Even the picture they froze at the Finish Line looks to me like the 9 is in front, unless I am way off on the line. In which case- 9 one by an easy head...

Relwob Owner
05-22-2009, 10:40 PM
Ok... just watched it. Now, at my age, I have trouble with colours of the saddlecloth numbers ;) but...

1) At normal speed, the 9 beat the 3;
2) At Slo-Mo speed, the 9 went ahead and was never headed by the 3.
3) Even the picture they froze at the Finish Line looks to me like the 9 is in front, unless I am way off on the line. In which case- 9 one by an easy head...

Thank you so much....I thought it was me....last time I was at CT, a guy in management said something about a new laser they have that looks at the photo finishes....so much for that. I lost the race no matter what but this is absurd.....

Saratoga_Mike
05-22-2009, 11:37 PM
Ok... just watched it. Now, at my age, I have trouble with colours of the saddlecloth numbers ;) but...

1) At normal speed, the 9 beat the 3;
2) At Slo-Mo speed, the 9 went ahead and was never headed by the 3.
3) Even the picture they froze at the Finish Line looks to me like the 9 is in front, unless I am way off on the line. In which case- 9 one by an easy head...

Geez, I did the same thing - 4 times at normal speed -- the 9 beat the 3....4 times at slow-mo and the 9 beat the 3. I need to go back and ck the frozen picture - didnt know that was part of the video. Unreal.

takeout
05-23-2009, 12:21 AM
I just watched it and couldn't tell who won even on the slo-mo. Couldn’t have been much more than a coat of paint either way. They need to put up a picture with a line across it or something.
Remember the time they were put up in the wrong order and made official? Ouch. That was another time when the winning bettors got screwed. Am I sensing a theme here?

The chart says a nose.
http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/instant_pdf.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=CT&date=2009-05-22&race=6

Steve 'StatMan'
05-23-2009, 12:34 AM
On that CT race - Youbet's replays have the photo - choose Photo under View if you have an account. It was close. I had to go to full screen to see the very small gap that the 9 was short.

Relwob Owner
05-23-2009, 07:55 AM
On that CT race - Youbet's replays have the photo - choose Photo under View if you have an account. It was close. I had to go to full screen to see the very small gap that the 9 was short.

Hey guys,

Thanks for checking it out....Steve, I checked out the photo and that one looked like a dead heat bit maybe there was a gap....there is just such a big difference between the full speed result and the photo....this weekend, I may try to talk to someone up there and will let you guys know what comes of it(to say I am pessimistic would be an understatement)....if you want another thing to look at, check out the DQ in the 8th....the horse who got DQ'd(the 6) swung out in front of the 9 a bit but was looked to definiely be clear....

lamboguy
05-23-2009, 08:36 AM
the one good thing that came out of this whole mess is the fact that penn national finally admitted to what almost everyone here beleived for years, that there has been past posting going on for ages.

someone that matters is going to read this thread and is going to run with it and demand swift changes to the system. even if there are alot of reporters that get perks from various leaders in the racing industry to let things get swept underneath the rug, they will realise that if this problem is not adressed real soon there will be no horse racing, and this pace advantage board will be full of political posts and cookie recipies, instead of horseracing.

MzDucat
06-03-2009, 02:14 PM
Why isn't Ed Martin, President Of Racing Commisioners International on this? He's in Lexington. Izzy Sobkowski is his computer guy in Vancouver who is mentioned in another board message. They supposedly have the ability to address this sort of stuff. Even if they can't personally do that, don't they have any of their members with the talent to wade in and come up with answers? The computers record virtually everything. Anyone with talent enough to understand it? It would just take a trip to Penn National.

I'm sure the guys who oversee Penn National would welcome the assistance.

Dave Schwartz
06-03-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm sure the guys who oversee Penn National would welcome the assistance.

Yeah, in my 30+ years of experience in computers, that is what I have found: people just love to have outsiders come in to point out and fix their mistakes.

:lol:

Seriously, my guess is that they will spend months or longer in denial, at least on the inside.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

lamboguy
06-03-2009, 03:27 PM
Hey guys,

Thanks for checking it out....Steve, I checked out the photo and that one looked like a dead heat bit maybe there was a gap....there is just such a big difference between the full speed result and the photo....this weekend, I may try to talk to someone up there and will let you guys know what comes of it(to say I am pessimistic would be an understatement)....if you want another thing to look at, check out the DQ in the 8th....the horse who got DQ'd(the 6) swung out in front of the 9 a bit but was looked to definiely be clear....i guarantee you that steve christ from the racing form read my post here. i am not sure if he owns the publication or just works for them, but either way he know's the integrety to the tote could be the ruination of this game. i think that steve crist is thinking about self-preservation when he wrote his article in the form. usually it takes either alot of guts or stupidity to buck the establishment in this game. i think he is doing this because he has no other alternative. if the game don't survive he has no pay check. in any case i am glad that he is trying, simply because he is more respected in this sport than i am, and the right ears might listen. and steve in case you read this post and want to take this game to a higher level you can pm me here and i will be glad to help you with all the wrong things that are going on in this game, and you can have all the credit for making the changes. i will just take the money!!

rokitman
06-03-2009, 04:58 PM
A few years ago I was playing a custom program that was designed to exploit the the bias for the leader at the first call in sprints. One track's results were far out of line with all the others in a manner that I could only make sense of if the races were fixed and/or there was past-posting. You guessed it- Penn National.


If I remember correctly, I posted something about it here- intended as a warning- and somebody All-Knowingly told me it was (paraphrasing) likely me, not them.

lamboguy
06-03-2009, 09:28 PM
A few years ago I was playing a custom program that was designed to exploit the the bias for the leader at the first call in sprints. One track's results were far out of line with all the others in a manner that I could only make sense of if the races were fixed and/or there was past-posting. You guessed it- Penn National.


If I remember correctly, I posted something about it here- intended as a warning- and somebody All-Knowingly told me it was (paraphrasing) likely me, not them.i never knew that one

MzDucat
06-05-2009, 11:39 AM
Yes Dave, and having cashed the paychecks I can tell you that never once was the computer guys name on the letterhead of his paycheck.

Ed Martin can and does look into pretty much whatever he feels needs looking into. The tote guys know that too. His VP in Dakota is no slouch either. I'd never bet against him.