Dutrow not big on rest

[oddsmaven]

The only time I really see a horse coming back on the NYRA circuit in less than a week, it's always Dutrow...Wednesday he has one in the 6th that ran on 5/16.

With other trainers I count the weeks between starts...this one ran in the 10th race Saturday, so let me see - how many HOURS is that between starts :confused:.

[riskman]

The only time I really see a horse coming back on the NYRA circuit in less than a week, it's always Dutrow...Wednesday he has one in the 6th that ran on 5/16.

With other trainers I count the weeks between starts...this one ran in the 10th race Saturday, so let me see - how many HOURS is that between starts :confused:.


How often does he win with horses coming back in 5 or 7 days?

[slewis]

The only time I really see a horse coming back on the NYRA circuit in less than a week, it's always Dutrow...Wednesday he has one in the 6th that ran on 5/16.

With other trainers I count the weeks between starts...this one ran in the 10th race Saturday, so let me see - how many HOURS is that between starts :confused:.

You are very mistaken about it being only Dutrow....

I couldn't believe how many trainers were doing it this winter.....

Since I always update my database on Monday for the prior race week Sun thru Thurs... I was constantly stumbling across horses that I hadn't data for inside 7 days... This year was the most I'd ever seen.

[BlueShoe]

Is it Dutrow that trains Reptilian Smarts?The last I heard,he had reeled off six straight wins.Recall a few months ago he came back in 3 or 4 days off of a win and promptly repeated.

[DrugS]

Yes.

Dutrow also trained Golden Man .. a horse who ran 3rd in the Long Branch Stakes at Monmouth and the very next day came back and ran 2nd to Sun King in the Len Richards at Delaware Park.

[macguy]

If the horse is in reasonably sound condition there is no reason it can't run back quickly.

It wasn't that long ago that claimers would run 2-3 times a week, stakes horses would often run every two weeks, perhaps even more frequently.

The cheaper the tracks you go to the more often the horses have to run to make any kind of money.

I remember last year seeing a horse run at SunDowns on Washington's "C" circuit on a Saturday then back again on Sunday. I believe it ran 3rd on Saturday and won on Sunday.

Up in British Columbia's "B" circuit (Kamloops, Princeton and Vernon) it's a regularity to see the same horses running every Saturday. They, however, are not allowed to run on Lasix.

[BlueShoe]

We had a very active thread just a few days ago about recency.The data base research seemed to point at runners away more than 4 weeks as being better bets.Still,it spite of that,horses coming back quickly off of fast,easy wins with good figures and stepping up in class,are black type best bets for me.

[wisconsin]

Gaspar Moschera used this move a lot, same for Allen Jerkens, although been awhile. This used to be a solid angle, so solid that Ainslie's book on jockeys devoted an entire chapter to the five day horse.....

The studies may show that these horses should be bet against lately, but that is including the mutts with no form. The ones in good form or stepping up off of a win are definately a threat to win anywhere, when placed in the right spot. If nothing else, it is a good angle to dink with when you can't otherwise seperate 2 horses. Had a $169 grass horse at Hialeah back in the 80's on an angle like this, and had a $100 maiden at Aqueduct some years back in the 90's.

[wisconsin]

Come to think of it, I had a nice bet on Conquistador Cielo off 4 days rest in the Belmont. Forgot about that one.

[joanied]

I recently saw an interveiw with Dutro on TV...maybe it was during Preakness week...anyway, he was asked about lay offs...he said he'd rather run a horse back within several days of his last race, than go several weeks with him.

With some exceptions, I think most sound horses do fine running back in a few days to a week...back in the 'good old days'...horses ran like that...trainers were not affraid to run right back...it's better than training them for weeks at a time, then run them...if they are sound and hold their weight...IMO...run 'em back right away. Keeps them fit, healthy & happy.

[DanG]

You are very mistaken about it being only Dutrow....

I couldn't believe how many trainers were doing it this winter.....

Since I always update my database on Monday for the prior race week Sun thru Thurs... I was constantly stumbling across horses that I hadn't data for inside 7 days... This year was the most I'd ever seen.
I agree 200% with that statement.

The NYRA racing office must have used a shotgun to fill some of these races. Before some were cooled out they were being led over again.

Horse shortages are upon us for a variety of reasons. Reducing the racing schedules will be met with incredible tax recipient resistance, but something has to give before the horses give out.

[46zilzal]

How many of you have actually gone back to the barns and observed even a fit and sound thoroughbred the first few days after a contest? They get nicked by flying items on the track, many get body sore, off their feed, filling in their flexor tendon sheath etc. etc.

They need time between races.....ALL of them

[JustRalph]

We had a very active thread just a few days ago about recency.The data base research seemed to point at runners away more than 4 weeks as being better bets.Still,it spite of that,horses coming back quickly off of fast,easy wins with good figures and stepping up in class,are black type best bets for me.

55 days is a the magic number

I don't know why......... when they don't race for 55 days........the win percentage drops huge...........

[joanied]

How many of you have actually gone back to the barns and observed even a fit and sound thoroughbred the first few days after a contest? They get nicked by flying items on the track, many get body sore, off their feed, filling in their flexor tendon sheath etc. etc.

They need time between races.....ALL of them

First, let me tell you that my vet tells everyone that when he dies, he's coming back as one of my horses...

now...some of those things, getting nicked by flying items...well, it's dirt...may not be pleaseant, but it's still just dirt...off their feed...prob'ly not...IF they are, then something ain't right...body sore...not if they are fit, horses that get body sore need to have their muscles used more...if you sit around the house for 4 weeks, then go do something hard...or run a ways...I bet you get sore...but, if you are out doing something, running, or working at some sort of labor intensive job, and you are fit as a fiddle...and you have to go out and work harder or run a little further...your body won't object and your muscles are fine and dandy....filling in the tendon...only under extreme circumstances...now, yeah, you may have a tired horse, if it happens to be in a really tough race...but you have an even more tired horse, an exhausted horse, if he has to run a hard race off of nothin' but training for 4 or 5 weeks.
My opinion...but based on working on the track back in the day:)

[dutzman]

I recently saw an interveiw with Dutro on TV...maybe it was during Preakness week...anyway, he was asked about lay offs...he said he'd rather run a horse back within several days of his last race, than go several weeks with him.

With some exceptions, I think most sound horses do fine running back in a few days to a week...back in the 'good old days'...horses ran like that...trainers were not affraid to run right back...it's better than training them for weeks at a time, then run them...if they are sound and hold their weight...IMO...run 'em back right away. Keeps them fit, healthy & happy.


I saw this interview. He said he didn't like coming back in two weeks. He likes 4,5,or 6 days....and if not that to give them 30 days....but he said he didn't like 2 weeks.

[wisconsin]

First, let me tell you that my vet tells everyone that when he dies, he's coming back as one of my horses...

now...some of those things, getting nicked by flying items...well, it's dirt...may not be pleaseant, but it's still just dirt...off their feed...prob'ly not...IF they are, then something ain't right...body sore...not if they are fit, horses that get body sore need to have their muscles used more...if you sit around the house for 4 weeks, then go do something hard...or run a ways...I bet you get sore...but, if you are out doing something, running, or working at some sort of labor intensive job, and you are fit as a fiddle...and you have to go out and work harder or run a little further...your body won't object and your muscles are fine and dandy....filling in the tendon...only under extreme circumstances...now, yeah, you may have a tired horse, if it happens to be in a really tough race...but you have an even more tired horse, an exhausted horse, if he has to run a hard race off of nothin' but training for 4 or 5 weeks.
My opinion...but based on working on the track back in the day:)

Bingo! Great post. We are talking about horses that are sharp or rounding into form. Sometimes, a trainer will run back quick when racing a horse into shape. But those look obvious on paper. Other times, there are 4 horses coming out of the same race six days ago, but one must assume there is not a condition in the book that fits these for awhile. Gimme a horse wheeled right back over one who has not raced in 4 or 6 weeks, has no workouts, or a real slow breeze, and I will assume the latter has barely jogged, and was probably walked around shed row for excersize instead of going to the track in the morning. This is a great angle still under the right circumstances. You just have to read between the lines.

[sandpit]

I saw this interview. He said he didn't like coming back in two weeks. He likes 4,5,or 6 days....and if not that to give them 30 days....but he said he didn't like 2 weeks.

And while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I never touch his horses if they are coming back in the 10-21 day range; they just don't seem to be up to the task for whatever reason. (Big Brown in the Preakness a glaring exception to this).

[big frank]

Remember the days of Oscar Barrera in ny ? he would run them off the claim in 3 to 5 days .. if he didnt run a horse within 14 days ,, they would run like they were off 2 years

[bishlap]

Remember the days of Oscar Barrera in ny ? he would run them off the claim in 3 to 5 days .. if he didnt run a horse within 14 days ,, they would run like they were off 2 years
yes i do...and everyone and their mother claimed he was cheating even though none of his horses ever tested positive 4 anything. Fickle fans and a fickle sport.

[bishlap]

Dutrow has to be the most underrated trainer in the sport. His excellence is obscured by a major personaity flaw, unfortunately. BTW, wasn't it Dutrow (might've been Contessa) a few yrs back won 2 consecutive races w/ the same horse? Okay, I'm being cute - he won the last race on a sunday and the 1st race the next wednesday...we don't race mon/tue. ;)

[joanied]

I saw this interview. He said he didn't like coming back in two weeks. He likes 4,5,or 6 days....and if not that to give them 30 days....but he said he didn't like 2 weeks.

yes, that is what he said. I would like to know his reasoning about not liking the to weeks, though.

[joanied]

Bingo! Great post. We are talking about horses that are sharp or rounding into form. Sometimes, a trainer will run back quick when racing a horse into shape. But those look obvious on paper. Other times, there are 4 horses coming out of the same race six days ago, but one must assume there is not a condition in the book that fits these for awhile. Gimme a horse wheeled right back over one who has not raced in 4 or 6 weeks, has no workouts, or a real slow breeze, and I will assume the latter has barely jogged, and was probably walked around shed row for excersize instead of going to the track in the morning. This is a great angle still under the right circumstances. You just have to read between the lines.

Thank you:blush: :)

[46zilzal]

Remember the days of Oscar Barrera in ny ? he would run them off the claim in 3 to 5 days .. if he didnt run a horse within 14 days ,, they would run like they were off 2 years
A friend claimed a few from Oscar until the pharmacological remnants showed up big time in trying to breed them

[joanied]

Dutrow has to be the most underrated trainer in the sport. His excellence is obscured by a major personaity flaw, unfortunately. BTW, wasn't it Dutrow (might've been Contessa) a few yrs back won 2 consecutive races w/ the same horse? Okay, I'm being cute - he won the last race on a sunday and the 1st race the next wednesday...we don't race mon/tue. ;)

Agreed:ThmbUp:

[Citation1947]

Most trainers prefer(for whatever reason) to train more and run less, while it is my belief that one can train far less(as long as you are putting air into them) and run more often, with even a lesser chance of injury.

I think that a majority of minor, career ending or life threatening injuries that occur, begin from senseless, aggressive over-training in the mornings as vital structures are weakened over time due to the TOO MUCH factor. When a horses tired muscles, tendons and ligaments, etc...(from daily grinding) are not given time to re-strengthen, these structures break down.

In other words, a huge majority of those horses who pull up lame or breakdown in either their morning breezes or afternoon races were already primed and ready.

But, due to many factors and changes to both the industry and the horse that we produce today, I personally wouldnt run back that soon(5-7 days).

[joanied]

"I am so sick of this way of thinking. It is suffocating the sport and, I am convinced, it is ultimately detrimental to the well-being of the animal. Horses need to run more often than they do to have the proper foundation and the strength and toughness to get through what is asked of them when they do race. What other athlete competes five times a year, trains for less than an hour a day and spends the rest of their time holed up in what amounts to a large box? How is that possibly a good idea?"

The above quote is from an article on the ESPN Triple Crown web site written by Bill Finley...
I know this thread is old, but when I read this story, this paragraph jumped out at me (he was actually writting about wether or not Rachel A should run in the Belmont)

Here is a link to the entire article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown09/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4185605

It pretty much says what I said within this thread about less training and more racing for sound, healthy, fit horses...(regardless of sex)...I thought this was quite interesting...
any thoughts?

[miesque]

"I am so sick of this way of thinking. It is suffocating the sport and, I am convinced, it is ultimately detrimental to the well-being of the animal. Horses need to run more often than they do to have the proper foundation and the strength and toughness to get through what is asked of them when they do race. What other athlete competes five times a year, trains for less than an hour a day and spends the rest of their time holed up in what amounts to a large box? How is that possibly a good idea?"

The above quote is from an article on the ESPN Triple Crown web site written by Bill Finley...
I know this thread is old, but when I read this story, this paragraph jumped out at me (he was actually writting about wether or not Rachel A should run in the Belmont)

Here is a link to the entire article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown09/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4185605

It pretty much says what I said within this thread about less training and more racing for sound, healthy, fit horses...(regardless of sex)...I thought this was quite interesting...
any thoughts?

The following are just my comments and I know there are some who probably disagree, but this is my opinion. There is part of me that thinks that trainers are overbabying and not working/racing their horses hard enough anymore and as this trend continues it makes it less and less likely we will ever see a Triple Crown winner if they keep the same format of 2 weeks rest then 3 weeks rest. You cannot race a horse every 5 weeks and then expect the horse to be able to adequately cope with all of a sudden having three races within that same time frame over longer distances. That is pretty cut and dry to me, in fact it does not surprise me in the least to see horses with that pattern get injured. I ran cross country and track in High School and played polo for 15 years so I understand the concept of conditioning and if you condition an athlete, be it a horse or a human, to compete every X number of days or weeks, their bodies eventually get used to that cycle and if they aren't fit enough to begin with for it eventually they will get fit enough (unless of course an injury pops up). Workouts are great, but there is nothing like full out competition.

[wisconsin]

The following are just my comments and I know there are some who probably disagree, but this is my opinion. There is part of me that thinks that trainers are overbabying and not working/racing their horses hard enough anymore and as this trend continues it makes it less and less likely we will ever see a Triple Crown winner if they keep the same format of 2 weeks rest then 3 weeks rest. You cannot race a horse every 5 weeks and then expect the horse to be able to adequately cope with all of a sudden having three races within that same time frame over longer distances. That is pretty cut and dry to me, in fact it does not surprise me in the least to see horses with that pattern get injured. I ran cross country and track in High School and played polo for 15 years so I understand the concept of conditioning and if you condition an athlete, be it a horse or a human, to compete every X number of days or weeks, their bodies eventually get used to that cycle and if they aren't fit enough to begin with for it eventually they will get fit enough (unless of course an injury pops up). Workouts are great, but there is nothing like full out competition.


I call it the wussification of the breed. Old time trainers must be rolling in their graves. The purse money is so great, and there is no need to run the horses very often, but the breed has become so frail in my opinion. My dad owned some harness horses, and they ran 50 times a year. You don't even see that anymore..... A thoroughbred that runs 20 times is rare. Seabiscuit ran 35 times as a 2 year old! Times have definately changed.

[fmolf]

I call it the wussification of the breed. Old time trainers must be rolling in their graves. The purse money is so great, and there is no need to run the horses very often, but the breed has become so frail in my opinion. My dad owned some harness horses, and they ran 50 times a year. You don't even see that anymore..... A thoroughbred that runs 20 times is rare. Seabiscuit ran 35 times as a 2 year old! Times have definately changed.
i agree i think fit horses need to run more often...contessa runs back just like dutrow does...years ago trainers would use races to train their horses and keep them fit....bodybuilders need to work out at least every other day...most long distance runners everyday...scott also gave extra credit to horses running back in less than 7 days....strike while the iron is hot theory!

[macguy]

I never lived in the "Good Old Days" but certainly from what I have seen over the years horse racing is not going in the right direction.

I'm personally a big believer in SEASONAL race meets. If you live in a colder climate a meet should run from about April to September. If you're living down south, a meet running from October to March.

I don't like that horses are run in the freezing cold on frozen tracks in freezing rain, and I don't like that horses are run in the very hot, humid mid-day conditions of Florida in the middle of summer. I honestly believe that it just isn't necessary.

I would like to see horses run at their meet, then lay off for a good 2-3 months before starting up again for the next year; not shipping in the "mega" trainers barns from coast to coast to coast 12 months of the year, until they are finally burnt out and "retired."

I would like to see more older horses making their 50th start of their career, and not just at the back country "bush" tracks.

Some trends going the wrong way -

Horses rarely used to go to the paddock in lip chains. I don't really know when this started, but I'm pretty hard pressed these days to find horses that DON'T show up in the paddock with a halter and lip chain. Why is this?

Pony Horses were the exception, not the rule. Nowadays it's a rarity to see horses going to post without a pony, why is it the jockey's can't seem to hold the horses anymore prior to a race? Perhaps the same reason every horse needs a lip chain these days.

As we all know, medications in most jurisdictions are completely out of control. It's pretty much commonplace to see horses running on a variety of medications these days including but not limited to, Lasix, a Lasix Adjunct, Bute, Flunixin, Ketoprofen, etc, etc.

Where would a lot of trainers be these days without Acepromazine? I certainly don't want to put all trainers into the same category, because that is just not fair, but I can honestly say many trainers abuse Tranquilizers. Why is it so many horses need to be tranquilized on a DAILY basis just so they can go out and gallop? Either the horses are just not getting enough exercise, or there is just a general lack of proper horsemanship going around. I suppose it is easier to medicate than it is to take the time to train the horse properly.

Breakdowns are an everyday thing. I don't know if it's just because there are more races being run, so naturally there are more breakdowns. Prior to the 1970s, catastrophic breakdowns on the racetrack were quite rare.

Bleeding. If you were to go by the medication used on race day, then apparently 99.9% of racehorses in North America bleed enough when they run that they require lasix. I know bleeding has been a problem in performance horses since the dawn of time, but is it just my imagination that there are more bleeders now more than ever? It's scary to see horses that are currently ON Lasix, coming back after races with nosebleeds out of both nostrils. I don't know what to think of this.

Oh well, at least the horses are running a few seconds faster than they were 30 years ago, so I suppose things are going in the right direction... :faint:

[joanied]

The following are just my comments and I know there are some who probably disagree, but this is my opinion. There is part of me that thinks that trainers are overbabying and not working/racing their horses hard enough anymore and as this trend continues it makes it less and less likely we will ever see a Triple Crown winner if they keep the same format of 2 weeks rest then 3 weeks rest. You cannot race a horse every 5 weeks and then expect the horse to be able to adequately cope with all of a sudden having three races within that same time frame over longer distances. That is pretty cut and dry to me, in fact it does not surprise me in the least to see horses with that pattern get injured. I ran cross country and track in High School and played polo for 15 years so I understand the concept of conditioning and if you condition an athlete, be it a horse or a human, to compete every X number of days or weeks, their bodies eventually get used to that cycle and if they aren't fit enough to begin with for it eventually they will get fit enough (unless of course an injury pops up). Workouts are great, but there is nothing like full out competition.

I won't disagree, miesque...and in the mornings, after a nice warm up (very, very important and most horses just don't get enough time to really stretch and warm up their muscles)...loooooooong gallops...2 miles or maybe more, depending on the horse...it's something most horses just don't get these days...building muscle tone, strong tendons, bone mass and lung power. ASnd let them stay out on the track for a while...jog them around, walk here and there (if possible)...these horses need time away from their stalls, and I don't mean 30 minutes of grazing outside the barn.

[joanied]

macguy....very good post:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[macguy]

macguy....very good post:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:


I needed to get it all out... :bang:

...I just realized I didn't even mention the cut back's in distances that today's horses run. :mad: