More Jockey BS

[LemonSoupKid]

You gotta love Borel, "She was struggling at the end to get a hold of the surface."

So she wasn't struggling at the beginning of the race with the surface? Gimme a break. She was spent after being pressured and was about to be passed. She deserves all the credit in the world, she withstood everything and started well (which is to her credit and skill) ... but to act like they got so close because "she didn't like the surface" is just hyperbole BS from Borel.

The fact is that she's a great filly but let's not act like this wasn't a perfect scenario for her to win a Triple Crown race --- not a great year, all in all, in terms of competition.

[Derbyman32]

You gotta love Borel, "She was struggling at the end to get a hold of the surface."

So she wasn't struggling at the beginning of the race with the surface? Gimme a break. She was spent after being pressured and was about to be passed. She deserves all the credit in the world, she withstood everything and started well (which is to her credit and skill) ... but to act like they got so close because "she didn't like the surface" is just hyperbole BS from Borel.

The fact is that she's a great filly but let's not act like this wasn't a perfect scenario for her to win a Triple Crown race --- not a great year, all in all, in terms of competition.

I hear what your saying but I think he is probably telling you how he felt. You have to remember that he was used to cruising home not hitting her with a whip. In his mind she is the best horse he has ever seen or been on (his quote not mine) and I think it probably upset him to have to get after her the way he did thus the remark about not liking the surface.

[rgustafson]

You gotta love Borel, "She was struggling at the end to get a hold of the surface."

So she wasn't struggling at the beginning of the race with the surface? Gimme a break. She was spent after being pressured and was about to be passed. She deserves all the credit in the world, she withstood everything and started well (which is to her credit and skill) ... but to act like they got so close because "she didn't like the surface" is just hyperbole BS from Borel.

The fact is that she's a great filly but let's not act like this wasn't a perfect scenario for her to win a Triple Crown race --- not a great year, all in all, in terms of competition.

Just wondering who you are to tell Calvin Borel how his horse feels underneath him. I'm pretty sure he knows the horse better than you do. I guess you are saying he is making excuses for not winning by 20 lengths.:)

[Oaklawn]

I think we are undercutting RA's performance. Overcomes #13 hole for the first time EVER, holds fast fractions and hangs on, all while stepping up in class. Bravo, honey.

Borel was definitely sad he had to hit her in the stretch, and I absolutely loved that. He loves that horse and knew she extended herself.

[oddsmaven]

Just wondering who you are to tell Calvin Borel how his horse feels underneath him. I'm pretty sure he knows the horse better than you do. I guess you are saying he is making excuses for not winning by 20 lengths.:)
Actually, the LemonSoupKid is the one making sense here, not Borel who seems like a nice fellow but is biased towards his filly...the trainers and jockeys are often full of BS when they blame the "surface" (usually for losses)...Rachel is terrific and a deserving winner, but to win this today and say she had trouble with the track is obviously be a crock.

[toussaud]

in lemonsoups defense, calvin is not necesssarily known for being fair and balanced... lmao. I remember his tampa bay derby on street sense and he said that the horse should have won by 15.

there are times you can listen to him but he gets caught up in the moment at times.

[DanG]

I actually agree with Mr. Bo-Rail;

When you don’t water a track because you expect rain…and the rain doesn’t come it can become very cuppy; tiring etc. You would hard press to name the colts this decade who could set those fractions / over this track and still win.

This was 80% of an exceptional thoroughbred for several reasons with the surface being one of them. From a figure perspective to lump the early routes with this race is apples and oranges imho.

100% of a rested Rachel over a glib strip leaves this field in her vapor trails imo.

[oddsmaven]

I actually agree with Mr. Bo-Rail;

When you don’t water a track because you expect rain…and the rain doesn’t come it can become very cuppy; tiring etc. You would hard press to name the colts this decade who could set those fractions / over this track and still win.

This was 80% of an exceptional thoroughbred for several reasons with the surface being one of them. From a figure perspective to lump the early routes with this race is apples and oranges imho.

100% of a rested Rachel over a glib strip leaves this field in her vapor trails imo.
One time I have to disagree respectively with some of what you've written Dan...the times i've heard Calvin, he's always full of hyperbole, but I find what you're saying about Rachel to be questionable...on one hand the pace was a killer (agreed), had to be carried 1 3/16 & she still won this premium race, yet she wasn't handling the track?

To me she was the best horse today, and was coming into this race is peak condition but I could easily see her losing down the road, and on a normal surface, merely by facing another decent class horse that comes along in sharp form.

[Imriledup]

just the fact that she only won by 1 length kinda makes Calvin seem credible.

[nijinski]

just the fact that she only won by 1 length kinda makes Calvin seem credible.
I can't agree I was thinking Calvin expected a larger margin which has happened many times in the Preakness and especially since she sat wasn't
in the Derby so an excuse came in handy.

[hencicleva]

[QUOTE=DanG]I actually agree with Mr. Bo-Rail;

When you don’t water a track because you expect rain…and the rain doesn’t come it can become very cuppy; tiring etc.

As a newbie I don't feel qualified to get too involved in this argument I, but as someone who was there, they did water the track 3 times yesterday including right before the race.

[Robert Fischer]

can i agree with Borel and LemonSoupKid ??

All those factors (the pace, the trip, the track) came into play.
She passed the test yesterday.

[Donnie]

Entertain this = Rachel won, but not by the margin neither the public not the jockey himself expected (kudos to her and him BTW). The look back just at the line by Calvin, IMHO, was to see what the fast diminishing distance to the Bird was gonna be. If they hook up again in the Belmont, and maybe now Calvin realizes there may be some distance limitations on the filly when placed against a little faster pace than the girls could throw at her, what do you think he is thinking? "I don't think we should send her to the Belmont". I say another 1/16 of a mile and we'd have been looking at another TC try in 3 weeks. But I am not taking ANYTHING away from Rachel! Super job! Super effort!! It was a great horse race!!

[DanG]

[QUOTE=DanG]I actually agree with Mr. Bo-Rail;

When you don’t water a track because you expect rain…and the rain doesn’t come it can become very cuppy; tiring etc.

As a newbie I don't feel qualified to get too involved in this argument I, but as someone who was there, they did water the track 3 times yesterday including right before the race.
Thanks for that information.

Someone I knew (2nd hand) at the track claimed it was a ”beach” in his words as compared to early in the day; but it is very subjective. I saw several exhausted animals after this race; but again…we each bring a different set of bulbs to the event.

All fair points in this thread and the best part is; we may all be very right; or very wrong. There are several aspects to this sport that will never be X+Y = Z and that is a good thing for all of us.

[Robert Goren]

For what ever reason RA looked to me like the wire couldn't come fast enough. As a person who bet on her I was yelling "WIRE WIRE" at the TV set.

[ghostyapper]

For what ever reason RA looked to me like the wire couldn't come fast enough. As a person who bet on her I was yelling "WIRE WIRE" at the TV set.

That was painfully obvious to anyone who watched the race but to borel he said "mtb wasn't catching her." That shows how off base his judgement so him using handling the track as an excuse does not make it valid

[DanG]

That was painfully obvious to anyone who watched the race but to borel he said "mtb wasn't catching her." That shows how off base his judgement so him using handling the track as an excuse does not make it valid
You may be right; but you can’t say that with certainty imo.

Just past the wire she kicked again and won the gallop out by a mile. MTB veered sharply to his right and slowed to a walk soon after. She may very well have responded if he got to her flank just as she did on the backstretch when she and Drama had that mini-drag race.

[Derbyman32]

You may be right; but you can’t say that with certainty imo.

Just past the wire she kicked again and won the gallop out by a mile. MTB veered sharply to his right and slowed to a walk soon after. She may very well have responded if he got to her flank just as she did on the backstretch when she and Drama had that mini-drag race.

What Dan said :ThmbUp:

[LemonSoupKid]

Am I missing something? The fractions I saw weren't slow, but they weren't fast. Didn't six furlongs go in 1:11+?

She won the gallop out? I find that a little funny.

Comparing trips and finishes, Mine That Bird wins with any added distance. Is that not obvious?

[JustRalph]

Am I missing something? The fractions I saw weren't slow, but they weren't fast. Didn't six furlongs go in 1:11+?

She won the gallop out? I find that a little funny.

Comparing trips and finishes, Mine That Bird wins with any added distance. Is that not obvious?

I dont' think it is obvious at all........ I think she had much more left and I think his run was over right at the line. I played it over and over and he is closing like hell until the last few jumps. if you have it on tape.........compare his close on Musket man right up until the last few jumps and you can see that it looks to me that he starts to drop off right at the end.

But for the record we are trying to analyze this shit in 5 seconds of video or less.......so who knows. I am told that the gallop out was telling though........and yes........ I think those gallop outs count for something.

[Derbyman32]

Calvin can get by with anything sometimes. Today at Churchill in the 3rd or 4th race he was riding the 2 horse and they broke and the 1 and 7 broke with him and with Calvin in the middle. Next thing you know Calvin is dropping back and just as suddenly here he comes up the rail . of course the 2 lets him do it... he wins naturally by daylight, I wonder why the jockeys let him do these things sometimes. :bang:

[Relwob Owner]

Am I missing something? The fractions I saw weren't slow, but they weren't fast. Didn't six furlongs go in 1:11+?

She won the gallop out? I find that a little funny.

Comparing trips and finishes, Mine That Bird wins with any added distance. Is that not obvious?


Its not close to obvious.....who knows how the race would shape up going longer-the result of the race was for that specific distance. You think Borel goes 46 and 2 for a mile and a half?


Ever seen a horse close at 7F but cant at a mile and a sixteenth or longer????

[LemonSoupKid]

The fractions were slightly faster than when Smarty won ... and slower than the last few years especially at 6 furlongs.

The pace was good, not hot.

Depending on the horse, I think Calvin does go similar to that fast, because she has run 1 or 2 on every call of every race for 6 straight races now.

[Bettowin]

When Calvin said she wasn't handling the track I thought he said at the end of the race. I took what he said that as RA was tiring she starting having a hard time with the surface. That's how I heard and understood what he said and it makes sense to me.

Either way she looked good coming down the lane:)

When they were showing how fast RA and MTB ran the last 3/8ths of their last races MTB was almost a second faster at a longer distance. I told my friends watching that if Borel could get her a 7 or 8 length lead on MTB on the turn she would be able to hold on. I was surprised how close MTB got having to go around those horses but he is a nimble little horse with a big heart.

[PaceAdvantage]

That was painfully obvious to anyone who watched the race but to borel he said "mtb wasn't catching her." That shows how off base his judgement so him using handling the track as an excuse does not make it validSo painfully obvious that MTB never passed Rachel, not even on the gallop-out...

A dead-tired filly (as some here claim), and she was even able to hold off his "freight train" close well past the wire as they galloped out...

Do you see where this is going?

[fmolf]

For what ever reason RA looked to me like the wire couldn't come fast enough. As a person who bet on her I was yelling "WIRE WIRE" at the TV set.
in a mile an 1/4 race she gets hooked by mtb....but she got the job done congrats to her and her jockey .... i respect woolley more now since he came out and gave the mount to smith even if rachel does not run...i hope calvin sees loyalty as good when it works against him!i do not think rachel will run in the belmont after such a taxing race on a tiring track against the toughest group of horses she has faced.i do not believe in the gallop out to me it means nothing

[DanG]

The fractions were slightly faster than when Smarty won ... and slower than the last few years especially at 6 furlongs.

The pace was good, not hot.

Check the Preakness charts of the horses that set the pace for the last decade. If you’re of the opinion the track was fair the pace comes up very hot. If you’re of the opinion the track was not conducive to her position (as I am) the pace comes up exceptionally hot.

My feeling is your crediting the eventual winner with the pace setters heavy lifting. The leader after a half in the Preakness has needed a cab to finish this decade.

Leader after the 1/2 since 2000...

YEAR FINISH FIN-LEN
2000 7th 8+
2001 10th 27
2002 10th 21
2003 4th 10+
2004 4th 13+
2005 5th 11+
2006 7th 26
2007 8th 25+
2008 11th 26
2009 1st 1st by 1

[freehouse2002]

I've seen the race plenty of times and although MTB was making up ground, in my estimation, RA was not getting caught. I think the length win was a little deceiving because, once again, (although I like Borel) he pulled her up right before the wire to go into his celebratory posing. He really needs to stop with that IMO.

Also, for all those saying that she shouldn't go to the Belmont....why not? I think that horses are babied too much nowadays and feel that more frequency on racing provides a fitter horse overall. I hope we get to see a rematch.


freehouse2002

[toetoe]

Just wondering who you are to tell Calvin Borel how his horse feels:)

How he feels and his powers of ratiocination are two distinct things, worlds apart. Would you bet the ranch on a runner because the trainer loved his workouts, and had him "right where he wanted him ?" I would not.

[freehouse2002]

Well, it seems as if this was on of the few times the jock made the right decision. RA & MTB have made this TC that much more intriguing.


freehouse2002

[David-LV]

I think we are undercutting RA's performance. Overcomes #13 hole for the first time EVER, holds fast fractions and hangs on, all while stepping up in class. Bravo, honey.

Borel was definitely sad he had to hit her in the stretch, and I absolutely loved that. He loves that horse and knew she extended herself.

When we talk about the first horse overcoming the #13 post we still have to understand that in all the history of the 133 Preakness's that have been run only 14 horses had to try and overcome the #13 post and in 119 races there was no #13 horse.

RA ran a great race, but the greatest of all time seems to really be stretching it at this point in her career as some people on some of these threads think.
_______
David-LV

[toetoe]

You would hard press to name the colts this decade who could set those fractions / over this track and still win.



I will try:

Congaree;
War Emblem;
Funny Cide --- maybe --- he did beat nothing by 9;
Smarty Jones;
Hard Spun;
Big Brown.

[DanG]

I will try:

Congaree;
War Emblem;
Funny Cide --- maybe --- he did beat nothing by 9;
Smarty Jones;
Hard Spun;
Big Brown.

I understand your point TT, but not one of those was "on" the lead at the 1/2m.

[joanied]

Although this thread seems to have taken a turn around from the subject...which is Jockey BS...to get back to it, I cannot imagine why anyone would question what Calvin said after the race...that RA struggled with the surface...first of all, even though Calvin does get caught up in the moment, and wears his emotions on his sleeve (all of which I think is super)...no one can know what he flet under him out of the last turn...if he says she struggled with the surface, hell...that is good enough for me. He sure wasn't looking for any excuses...RA ran an incredible race...and I seriously doubt Calvin has it in him to lei or even stretch the truth...he's as honest as the day is long.

[ghostyapper]

You know racing fans have a funny way of believing certain information they hear from the connections while tuneing out other.

Mike Smith says he would have caught Rachel if he had a little more distance or if the horse had not been slowed from traffic and thats nonsense. Calvin says his filly wasn't handling the track and MTB wasn't catching him and thats gospel

[LemonSoupKid]

I don't think it has anything to do with honesty. Emotions get in the way of stating the degree to which things happen all the time --- in everyday life and in horse racing.

At the end she didn't take to the track? What a joke! All of a sudden, what's more likely? She was tired and someone was gaining on her after he had some trouble around the home turn, or that she is "just so good that it had to be the 'surface' and not the horse." What a joke.

I'd take Street Sense over her any day, any time. Without question. And I was a Curlin guy anyway at that point in time.

[Derbyman32]

I don't think it has anything to do with honesty. Emotions get in the way of stating the degree to which things happen all the time --- in everyday life and in horse racing.

At the end she didn't take to the track? What a joke! All of a sudden, what's more likely? She was tired and someone was gaining on her after he had some trouble around the home turn, or that she is "just so good that it had to be the 'surface' and not the horse." What a joke.

I'd take Street Sense over her any day, any time. Without question. And I was a Curlin guy anyway at that point in time.

Calving Borel rode Street Sense, he also rides Rachel, he has stated more than once that Rachel is the BEST horse he has ever ridden. I don't understand how you could possibly know more about the two horses then the jockey who rode them both. I am listening to Calvin sorry. :bang:

[ghostyapper]

Calving Borel rode Street Sense, he also rides Rachel, he has stated more than once that Rachel is the BEST horse he has ever ridden. I don't understand how you could possibly know more about the two horses then the jockey who rode them both. I am listening to Calvin sorry. :bang:

Jockey's are usually in the here and now when discussing best horses they've ever ridden, trainers too.

In 2006 Javier Castellano continually referred to Bernardini as the best horse he's ever ridden and this was a year removed from him riding ghostzapper

Pletcher said this year dunkirk will be his best chance at the derby so far.

[Derbyman32]

Jockey's are usually in the here and now when discussing best horses they've ever ridden, trainers too.

In 2006 Javier Castellano continually referred to Bernardini as the best horse he's ever ridden and this was a year removed from him riding ghostzapper

Pletcher said this year dunkirk will be his best chance at the derby so far.

You make a good point in the hear and now statement and that is probably true but he has really been vocal when speaking of Rachel. He also turned down a ride on the Derby winner (don't think that would have happened with Street Sense) and that sorta backs up his talking about the filly and taking her over a colt to ride against in the Preakness.

[Pell Mell]

Calvin can get by with anything sometimes. Today at Churchill in the 3rd or 4th race he was riding the 2 horse and they broke and the 1 and 7 broke with him and with Calvin in the middle. Next thing you know Calvin is dropping back and just as suddenly here he comes up the rail . of course the 2 lets him do it... he wins naturally by daylight, I wonder why the jockeys let him do these things sometimes. :bang:

I would think for several reasons. One is a jock can be DQd for failure to maintain a stright course, especially if it's thought that it was a deliberate move. Another is that not too many jocks take kindly to being involved in a spill.

[Derbyman32]

I would think for several reasons. One is a jock can be DQd for failure to maintain a stright course, especially if it's thought that it was a deliberate move. Another is that not too many jocks take kindly to being involved in a spill.

Okay I hear what your saying and gotta agree. Calvin is the only rider at Churchill Downs that I know of that uses the rail to his advantage to the extent he does though. That was a really small opening he went through with MTB in the Derby he really has the skills for riding like that even in light of the danger it brings to him.

[Imriledup]

Am I missing something? The fractions I saw weren't slow, but they weren't fast. Didn't six furlongs go in 1:11+?

She won the gallop out? I find that a little funny.

Comparing trips and finishes, Mine That Bird wins with any added distance. Is that not obvious?

Rachel wins the belmont by more. The only reason MTB got close to her was because she had post 13 and had to be used hard to get around everyone. RA will get a 5 lb weight break in the Belmont, she'll have a slower pace and she'll just gallop and no one will get close to her.

Of course, this argument i'm making assumes that the Preakness took nothing out of her....im talking about Rachel at her peak form.

If she loses the Belmont its not because she's not talented enough or can get the distance, it will be because the Preakness took too much out of her.

[Imriledup]

Calving Borel rode Street Sense, he also rides Rachel, he has stated more than once that Rachel is the BEST horse he has ever ridden. I don't understand how you could possibly know more about the two horses then the jockey who rode them both. I am listening to Calvin sorry. :bang:

Rachel is the best horse ANYONE has ever ridden.

[Derbyman32]

Rachel is the best horse ANYONE has ever ridden.

Wow that is really big and ambitious statement to make and I really hope that Rachel can validate our faith in her. Racing really needs a Superstar to showcase and just maybe they have found one in Rachel Alexandra

[PaceAdvantage]

Rachel is the best horse ANYONE has ever ridden.Completely false, and if you say it again, I will be convinced that someone has stolen your account, thus I will be forced to take the appropriate action.

[WinterTriangle]

If she loses the Belmont its not because she's not talented enough or can get the distance, it will be because the Preakness took too much out of her.

In other words, as far as you're concerned, if she ran in the Belmont, and lost..... ..............................she still won. :rolleyes: ;)


I'm sure you realize that there are people saying the KY Derby took something out of MTB and that's why he didn't win the Preakness. Ditto for the Belmont after running the Derby AND the Preakness.

Heck, any horse who ran in either race will now have an excuse in the Belmont. :)

[ghostyapper]

If she loses the Belmont its not because she's not talented enough or can get the distance, it will be because the Preakness took too much out of her.

And the excuses already begin without the race even been run. On one thread you compare her to michael jordan and here you offer this lame excuse if the "best of all time" fails to win the belmont :confused:

[Hosshead]

Completely false, and if you say it again, I will be convinced that someone has stolen your account, thus I will be forced to take the appropriate action.
:lol: LMAO !

[LemonSoupKid]

Right, how could she be the greatest if there have been Triple Crown horses that won all three? Are they the greatest-er because they overcame arduous Preaknesses? Haha, this is hysterical.


"Of course, this argument i'm making assumes that the Preakness took nothing out of her....im talking about Rachel at her peak form."

That's the point of gambling and odds. Will she be at peak form? Are you betting on her being "peak form"? What's the difference between you saying that she won the race if you bet on her vs. if I bet on Mine That Bird and justified it by saying that "he wasn't in peak form."

It's all hooey. "Didn't take to the surface, "wasn't herself", etc. are all excuses that ulimately mean nothing."

The only tangible thing that might mean something are things OUTSIDE of the horse that he can't control (ie not surface, anxiety, etc.) like the position of other horses and getting boxed in. Interestingly, we can use these excuses precisely to predict future races by the fact that it can be obvious why a horse wasn't allowed to run up to his ability. And that's what handicapping is all about.

[QuarterCrack]

Rachel is the best horse ANYONE has ever ridden.

Ron Turcotte might disagree.
;)

[FenceBored]

Okay I hear what your saying and gotta agree. Calvin is the only rider at Churchill Downs that I know of that uses the rail to his advantage to the extent he does though. That was a really small opening he went through with MTB in the Derby he really has the skills for riding like that even in light of the danger it brings to him.

You think that was small, did you see what he did with Miss Isella in the Louisville Distaff on Oaks day. One Caroline comes over on them, and they still bull through for the win.

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