Jim Hightower on Horse Drugging

[The Judge]

Jim Hightower has an article on drugs and the horse business. Its a take off I assume from a NYTimes article. His articles change daily so if you are interested better check it now.http://www.jimhightower.com/node/6816

[andymays]

There were no medication positives for the Derby or Oaks.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50721/no-medication-positives-for-derby-oaks?id=50721&source=rss

I am in the minority but I think this drug issue stuff (paranoia) has become so overblown it is one of the things that is destroying racing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

There were no medication positives for the Derby or Oaks.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50721/no-medication-positives-for-derby-oaks?id=50721&source=rss

I am in the minority but I think this drug issue stuff (paranoia) has become so overblown it is one of the things that is destroying racing.

Paranoia, on this board, about drugs? Never seen it!

In all seriousness, I think drugs in racing are a problem, but the baseless accusations about MTB's Derby win were disgraceful.

[KathleenImposter]

There were no medication positives for the Derby or Oaks.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50721/no-medication-positives-for-derby-oaks?id=50721&source=rss

I am in the minority but I think this drug issue stuff (paranoia) has become so overblown it is one of the things that is destroying racing.

The problems are not paranoia, they are very real. Ask anyone on the backside.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The problems are not paranoia, they are very real. Ask anyone on the backside.

I don't think anyone on the backside has anymore hard facts than most on this board. We watch certain "super-trainers' claim horses and consistently improve their Beyers by 10 to 20 pts. You just can't consistently do that, especially in a few weeks time without added "help." But if anyone on the backside knows what certain trainers are actually using for this "help," I'd assume they'd report it to the stewards immediately. Correct?

[Citation1947]

I don't think anyone on the backside has anymore hard facts than most on this board. We watch certain "super-trainers' claim horses and consistently improve their Beyers by 10 to 20 pts. You just can't consistently do that, especially in a few weeks time without added "help." But if anyone on the backside knows what certain trainers are actually using for this "help," I'd assume they'd report it to the stewards immediately. Correct?


Let's say I doped horses and you knew what I was using and you turned me in, how many other trainers do you think are going to be in a hurry to hire you? Or allow you to hang around knowing their business? Needing a paycheck to pay bills, soon you'll be looking for a new line of work or new friends to BS with.
The problem is there isnt enough honest trainers anymore where you could actually pull that off and still be welcomed. Just take a look at Jose Canseco, shunned for speaking out the truth about a drug problem in baseball that was rampant.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Let's say I doped horses and you knew what I was using and you turned me in, how many other trainers do you think are going to be in a hurry to hire you? Or allow you to hang around knowing their business? Needing a paycheck to pay bills, soon you'll be looking for a new line of work or new friends to BS with.
The problem is there isnt enough honest trainers anymore where you could actually pull that off and still be welcomed. Just take a look at Jose Canseco, shunned for speaking out the truth about a drug problem in baseball that was rampant.

A somewhat educated guess: probably about 80% to 90% would hire such a person. Most trainers don't cheat and want cheats out of the game. In any case, if you defintively knew what a trainer was using to gain an illegal edge, you could just as easily send the stewards an anonymous, yet detailed letter. I believe it would be taken seriously.

[Citation1947]

A somewhat educated guess: probably about 80% to 90% would hire such a person. Most trainers don't cheat and want cheats out of the game. In any case, if you defintively knew what a trainer was using to gain an illegal edge, you could just as easily send the stewards an anonymous, yet detailed letter. I believe it would be taken seriously.


lol ok if you say so.

[Saratoga_Mike]

lol ok if you say so.

How many trainers do you know personally?

[Relwob Owner]

Let's say I doped horses and you knew what I was using and you turned me in, how many other trainers do you think are going to be in a hurry to hire you? Or allow you to hang around knowing their business? Needing a paycheck to pay bills, soon you'll be looking for a new line of work or new friends to BS with.
The problem is there isnt enough honest trainers anymore where you could actually pull that off and still be welcomed. Just take a look at Jose Canseco, shunned for speaking out the truth about a drug problem in baseball that was rampant.


Actually, most of the trainers I know would hire such a person in a second, I would think....that person who turned in the trainer who was doing illegal things will have proven that he/she doesnt believe in "looking the other way" or going with the flow just to stay employed. Call me naive, but I think that the majority of the trainers dont cheat and as a result, the person wouldnt have a hard time finding new employment....

[Saratoga_Mike]

Actually, most of the trainers I know would hire such a person in a second, I would think....that person who turned in the trainer who was doing illegal things will have proven that he/she doesnt believe in "looking the other way" or going with the flow just to stay employed. Call me naive, but I think that the majority of the trainers dont cheat and as a result, the person wouldnt have a hard time finding new employment....

There's a certain track on the east coast where I think such a person might just be hoisted on the shoulders of the trainers and carried around the backstretch.

[Citation1947]

How many trainers do you know personally?


Let's put it this way and then im gonna shut up about anything more on this subject. I have been in the business for nearly 40 years. I have been on the backsides of 30-35 tracks and numerous training centers. I have witnessed an increasingly decaying world in the industry that goes on and it isnt pretty.

Sure there are many honest horse people left, but there are more than ever those who feel they have to cheat some way or another simply because others are in order to compete with them.

How many auto garages to you feel you can take your car to and not get screwed? Most people have lost their way these days due to greed(making money), regardless of the industry. Horse racing isnt any different. You should understand that by knowing what the breeding end of it has become.

[Citation1947]

Actually, most of the trainers I know would hire such a person in a second, I would think....that person who turned in the trainer who was doing illegal things will have proven that he/she doesnt believe in "looking the other way" or going with the flow just to stay employed. Call me naive, but I think that the majority of the trainers dont cheat and as a result, the person wouldnt have a hard time finding new employment....


I hope you are right.

[KathleenImposter]

I don't think anyone on the backside has anymore hard facts than most on this board. We watch certain "super-trainers' claim horses and consistently improve their Beyers by 10 to 20 pts. You just can't consistently do that, especially in a few weeks time without added "help." But if anyone on the backside knows what certain trainers are actually using for this "help," I'd assume they'd report it to the stewards immediately. Correct?

Depends. I know some people who do act as informants and that is truly one of the ways the front side keeps up with things...the vets don't report it because they make money on the meds. Some jurisdictions don't want to hear about it, they just want to ignore it. I know trainers who use EPO, but I'm not going to turn them in because there is no test for it anyway so what good would it do? The trainers that improve 20 points like you say are most likely using EPO, it's the easiest way to improve on a good trainer, simply give the med and your horse suddenly gets many more RBC's to process oxygen quicker. The problem is it causes horses to crash and even die when the come off of it so most trainers with any class - most on the backside - don't mess with the stuff and settle for winning at a decent rate, not at 30%+. In my opinion, you simply can't win at 30% even if you claim and drop unless you are cheating...too many things happen to prevent you from winning. The one exception to this rule is in certain circuits at bush tracks where an outfit has superior horses and runs against short fields.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Let's put it this way and then im gonna shut up about anything more on this subject. I have been in the business for nearly 40 years. I have been on the backsides of 30-35 tracks and numerous training centers. I have witnessed an increasingly decaying world in the industry that goes on and it isnt pretty.

Sure there are many honest horse people left, but there are more than ever those who feel they have to cheat some way or another simply because others are in order to compete with them.

How many auto garages to you feel you can take your car to and not get screwed? Most people have lost their way these days due to greed(making money), regardless of the industry. Horse racing isnt any different. You should understand that by knowing what the breeding end of it as become.

The breeding end has arguably been ruined by the introduction of too many legal race-day drugs over the past 30 yrs. Most trainers use a standard pre-race vet regiment, which is perfectly legal. That said, I'd like to see most of it banned especially Clenbutrol (which obviously isn't part of the pre-race regiment per se). But that stuff is legal. You can be pre-racing everyone of your horses to the "legal" limit and still want to get rid of those trainers with an "edge."

[KathleenImposter]

A somewhat educated guess: probably about 80% to 90% would hire such a person. Most trainers don't cheat and want cheats out of the game. In any case, if you defintively knew what a trainer was using to gain an illegal edge, you could just as easily send the stewards an anonymous, yet detailed letter. I believe it would be taken seriously.

Good point. If I had to guess, here is how I would break down the trainers on an average backside.

10% cheat and use all sorts of meds that aren't tested for and also push the limit with legal ones (clen b, Dex, etc)

10% will occasionally push the limit with therapeutics and they'll get a positive once-twice a year, pay the fine, and many don't hear about it

80% try to do it right and may get a positive for a groom error or poor organization, but try to do it right

I agree, most trainers would prefer Lasix / Bute only, no exceptions.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Depends. I know some people who do act as informants and that is truly one of the ways the front side keeps up with things...the vets don't report it because they make money on the meds. Some jurisdictions don't want to hear about it, they just want to ignore it. I know trainers who use EPO, but I'm not going to turn them in because there is no test for it anyway so what good would it do? The trainers that improve 20 points like you say are most likely using EPO, it's the easiest way to improve on a good trainer, simply give the med and your horse suddenly gets many more RBC's to process oxygen quicker. The problem is it causes horses to crash and even die when the come off of it so most trainers with any class - most on the backside - don't mess with the stuff and settle for winning at a decent rate, not at 30%+. In my opinion, you simply can't win at 30% even if you claim and drop unless you are cheating...too many things happen to prevent you from winning. The one exception to this rule is in certain circuits at bush tracks where an outfit has superior horses and runs against short fields.

You can't test for EPO, but you can test for EPO anti-bodies.

With enough money, you can certainly win at a 30% clip with a drop-down strategy.

[KathleenImposter]

You can't test for EPO, but you can test for EPO anti-bodies.



Correct. Now find me a jurisdiction who is then going to spend a half million dollars fighting it in court because the antibodies can stay in the system for years and it becomes a case of "how do you know my client gave the medication when the horse was trained by eight other people in the past three years."

[Saratoga_Mike]

Correct. Now find me a jurisdiction who is then going to spend a half million dollars fighting it in court because the antibodies can stay in the system for years and it becomes a case of "how do you know my client gave the medication when the horse was trained by eight other people in the past three years."

Simple, most tracks are private property and may ban whomever they care to ban. Common law backs this assertion. The Meadowlands and MTH being the most glaring exceptions.

[KathleenImposter]

Simple, yet I've never heard of anyone banned from racing for using EPO.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Simple, yet I've never heard of anyone banned from racing for using EPO.

It's happened in harness racing. But off the top of my head, I can't think of someone in t'bred racing. I'm sure someone will come up with one example at least. Have a good one.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Don't have to have a high % using as long as you have Biancone and Cobra Venom, Cole Norman with 2 of Toby Keith's horses in 1 stakes race, Mullins' breaking of NY and KY rules within 1 week, and Pletcher appealing to the NY Appeals Court, Big Brown's steroids. That is plenty enough of "perception" IMO to make drugs look rampant in TBred racing.
Combine all that with the attempt to keep RA out of the Preakness, lax attitudes toward breakdowns by some big shots, the slaughter issue, no TC winner, bigger fields in slots states, ADW problems; and the seeming view of those in charge of CD, Ellis, and KY racing that they did not know that racing has been going downhill for the last 15+ years in sires, races, TBred population, starts per race, and stagnant in betting.
What you have is more proof that controlling powers in racing are not up to speed in the long-term health of the industry and just in-fight between states and tracks in terms of revenue, concerned only for momentary gains by horsemen and breeders.
Ward said "redesign the sport" to save $$$ going to everyone but bettors.

[PaceAdvantage]

In all seriousness, I think drugs in racing are a problem, but the baseless accusations about MTB's Derby win were disgraceful.There were no accusations...only questions raised...accusations would not be tolerated without merit.

[Tom]

The way racing is run today pretty much ensure questions will be raised.
My philosophy, guilty until proven innocent.

[KathleenImposter]

I know a lot of good trainers who have never had any positives. The proof is in the pudding. You can be clean in this sport and make a living...you just won't get the big owners who run it like a business and nothing more.

[ddog]

Let's put it this way and then im gonna shut up about anything more on this subject. I have been in the business for nearly 40 years. I have been on the backsides of 30-35 tracks and numerous training centers. I have witnessed an increasingly decaying world in the industry that goes on and it isnt pretty.

Sure there are many honest horse people left, but there are more than ever those who feel they have to cheat some way or another simply because others are in order to compete with them.

How many auto garages to you feel you can take your car to and not get screwed? Most people have lost their way these days due to greed(making money), regardless of the industry. Horse racing isnt any different. You should understand that by knowing what the breeding end of it has become.



Well said and true as I see it these days.

Many will hide from it, but it's the truth.

[Imriledup]

Depends. I know some people who do act as informants and that is truly one of the ways the front side keeps up with things...the vets don't report it because they make money on the meds. Some jurisdictions don't want to hear about it, they just want to ignore it. I know trainers who use EPO, but I'm not going to turn them in because there is no test for it anyway so what good would it do? The trainers that improve 20 points like you say are most likely using EPO, it's the easiest way to improve on a good trainer, simply give the med and your horse suddenly gets many more RBC's to process oxygen quicker. The problem is it causes horses to crash and even die when the come off of it so most trainers with any class - most on the backside - don't mess with the stuff and settle for winning at a decent rate, not at 30%+. In my opinion, you simply can't win at 30% even if you claim and drop unless you are cheating...too many things happen to prevent you from winning. The one exception to this rule is in certain circuits at bush tracks where an outfit has superior horses and runs against short fields.

Good post.

Jerry Hollendorfer, the king of Northern California, is currently winning at 23 percent at golden gate. He's a trainer who will have absolutely no problem dropping a recent 10 or 20k claim in for 4k to get a win and he isn't really all that close to 30 percent.

If that guy can't win 30 percent in N Cal with 5 horse fields all over the place, than no one can (unless, like you say, cheating is going on)

Also, it depends on how many starters you have. There are a couple trainers in No Cal right now that are about 30 percent, but they have only a fourth or a fifth of the amount of starters that Dorf has.

[razzle]

Good point. If I had to guess, here is how I would break down the trainers on an average backside.

10% cheat and use all sorts of meds that aren't tested for and also push the limit with legal ones (clen b, Dex, etc)

10% will occasionally push the limit with therapeutics and they'll get a positive once-twice a year, pay the fine, and many don't hear about it

80% try to do it right and may get a positive for a groom error or poor organization, but try to do it right

I agree, most trainers would prefer Lasix / Bute only, no exceptions.
Kathleen, I just read through this string. My compliments to you on your clarity about the juicers. That said, your estimates seem conservative as if you are willing to give benefit of doubt wherever possible, but it is one of the better positions I have read. As you obviously know, there's a reason Jack Van Berg called racing "chemical warfare" during his congressional testimony.

[castaway01]

Kathleen, I just read through this string. My compliments to you on your clarity about the juicers. That said, your estimates seem conservative as if you are willing to give benefit of doubt wherever possible, but it is one of the better positions I have read. As you obviously know, there's a reason Jack Van Berg called racing "chemical warfare" during his congressional testimony.

Good work Kathleen---I agree with your optmistic view, and I hope you are right. I think most trainers try to be "honest" but some stricter drug restrictions would only help those who want to walk the straight-and-narrow compete with those who don't.

[Greyfox]

Track and field and Cycling contestants are tested for EPO.
Racing seldom tests for it as the costs per test are somewhat prohibitive.

[jonnielu]

There were no medication positives for the Derby or Oaks.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50721/no-medication-positives-for-derby-oaks?id=50721&source=rss

I am in the minority but I think this drug issue stuff (paranoia) has become so overblown it is one of the things that is destroying racing.

Now here is something that we can agree on.

jdl

[Gallop58]

..... I know trainers who use EPO, but I'm not going to turn them in because there is no test for it anyway so what good would it do? ....

May I ask what racing jurisdiction/circuit this would be in?

[fmolf]

What is Biancones record since returning?....Why is canani all of a sudden winning at such a high rate?..I do not follow cal. racing...doesn't hollendorfer run in a lot of 5 horse fields up there?