Cameras at stoplights

[Valuist]

Much to my surprise, going thru the mail the other day, I received a ticket. Apparently my town recently installed cameras in a few spots and claimed I ran a red light. The sight even has a link to view the video of one's "violation". I can tell you from personal experience, they will nail you for right turns on red in what they feel are "rolling stops". These are violations an actual police officer would not even bother with. Obviously to "serve and protect" in my town means protecting their revenue streams.

[NJ Stinks]

I hate the idea of the damn things. They are still somewhere down the line in Jersey but I fear that day may come soon. :mad:

[The Judge]

Can you tell who is driving? The question isn't do you know who is driving, of course you know, but could someone who has never seen you before say that its you behind the wheel ? Was the mirror in the way? Was the driver wearing sun-glasses,a cap or hat, was the head turned to the side. Can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were the person behind the wheel.

Remember you can remain silent you don't have to prove it wasn't you driving they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was you and not someone else. Most of these pictures you can't tell who was behind the wheel. This may have changed maybe with new technology the picture might be clear.

If a person is running red lights the police should stop them and give them ticket. Not get a ticket in the mail a week or two after the incident.

[boxcar]

I hate the idea of the damn things. They are still somewhere down the line in Jersey but I fear that day may come soon. :mad:


I'm stunned. I would have thought you'd relish the idea of "big brother" watching your every move -- for your good and the good of society. :lol:

Boxcar

[slewis]

Can you tell who is driving? The question isn't do you know who is driving, of course you know, but could someone who has never seen you before say that its you behind the wheel ? Was the mirror in the way? Was the driver wearing sun-glasses,a cap or hat, was the head turned to the side. Can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were the person behind the wheel.

Remember you can remain silent you don't have to prove it wasn't you driving they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was you and not someone else. Most of these pictures you can't tell who was behind the wheel. This may have changed maybe with new technology the picture might be clear.

If a person is running red lights the police should stop them and give them ticket. Not get a ticket in the mail a week or two after the incident.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

You cannot be a real judge or lawyer giving that advice.....

From what I understand there are no points against you're license (or anyone's for that matter) but the registered plates on the vehicle is responsible for the fine.

Case closed... your honor.....:rolleyes:

[MONEY]

Can you tell who is driving? The question isn't do you know who is driving, of course you know, but could someone who has never seen you before say that its you behind the wheel ? Was the mirror in the way? Was the driver wearing sun-glasses,a cap or hat, was the head turned to the side. Can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were the person behind the wheel.

Remember you can remain silent you don't have to prove it wasn't you driving they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was you and not someone else. Most of these pictures you can't tell who was behind the wheel. This may have changed maybe with new technology the picture might be clear.

If a person is running red lights the police should stop them and give them ticket. Not get a ticket in the mail a week or two after the incident.

The camera tickets are issued to the owner of the vehicle (Just like a parking ticket) it doesn't matter who was behind the wheel.

money

[slewis]

Can you tell who is driving? The question isn't do you know who is driving, of course you know, but could someone who has never seen you before say that its you behind the wheel ? Was the mirror in the way? Was the driver wearing sun-glasses,a cap or hat, was the head turned to the side. Can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were the person behind the wheel.

Remember you can remain silent you don't have to prove it wasn't you driving they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was you and not someone else. Most of these pictures you can't tell who was behind the wheel. This may have changed maybe with new technology the picture might be clear.

If a person is running red lights the police should stop them and give them ticket. Not get a ticket in the mail a week or two after the incident.

And BTW... where do you get this "beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff??

You've been watching replay's of the OJ trial:lol:

If an officer had pulled the driver over, he explains to the Judge (the real one, not you) what the driver did...
THERE IS NO BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.... this is traffic court... the cop tells his side, you tell yours... If you take the 5th... YOU WILL BE FOUND GUILTY....
The judge basis his decision on testimony and experience.. not "beyond reasonable doubt"

Sometimes this forum cracks me up...:lol:

[riskman]

[A lawyer defending a man accused of burglary tried this creative defense...]

“My client merely inserted his arm into the window and removed a few trifling articles. His arm is not himself, and I fail to see how you can punish the whole individual for an offense committed by his limb.”

“Well put,” the judge replied. “Using your logic, I sentence the defendant's arm to one year's imprisonment. He can accompany it or not, as he chooses.”

The defendant smiled. And, with his lawyer's assistance, he detached his artificial limb, laid it on the bench and walked out.

[NJ Stinks]

I'm stunned. I would have thought you'd relish the idea of "big brother" watching your every move -- for your good and the good of society. :lol:

Boxcar

It was the law of averages finally catching up with me, Boxcar. :)

[The Judge]

In many states a "moving violation" is a criminal offense its called a "infraction" there are felonies, misdemeanors and infractions the standard of proof is the same in all three "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". In this case there is no police officer its just a camera. In California they must prove who was driving the car. I don't see how it could be different in other states but it maybe. Only 1% of these tickets are fought the rest just pay the fine or go to traffic school.

Those of you who think its a slam-dunk as soon as a cop shows up in traffic court then pay your fine and go about your merry way. For those of you with a little back bone, you have the internet google and see what you can fine to help your case go to traffic court and sit in to see what happens before you go.

Here are a few sites http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca-appellate-court-invalidates-80-of-red-light-camera-tickets/

Without photographs showing "appellant" committing the violation, the system must be proven reliable "beyond a reasonable doubt" in order for the people to meet their burden of proof,” Presiding Judge, M*****ne G. Gilliard, wrote.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10901008/detail.htm

[JustRalph]

they are civil in most areas. Not criminal violations

That's how they get around the 6th Amendment

[Marshall Bennett]

JR is right . Cameras have been in use in the Houston area for quite some time now . Very few offenders pay their tickets , and with the issue being a civil matter when it comes to collecting , most never do , and imo , as it should be .

[slewis]

JR is right . Cameras have been in use in the Houston area for quite some time now . Very few offenders pay their tickets , and with the issue being a civil matter when it comes to collecting , most never do , and imo , as it should be .

Hey Marshall....

Whats the point of installing the camara's if they're gonna let people slide on the tickets???

One of these days someone is gonna wise up and do as they do in NY and Philadelphia (and other cities)

Have a city marshall or sheriff armed with a computer linked to the Texas DMV and a flat bed tow truck following and drive around and run a check on every car parked on the street or in a parking lot, etc... and anyone who didn't pay..... take the car to the city pound... If you want your car back... pay the tickets in full.... or they will give you a hearing date to defend yourself..... but they hold the car....since you didn't pay on the original due date....

Works like a charm...

[slewis]

In many states a "moving violation" is a criminal offense its called a "infraction" there are felonies, misdemeanors and infractions the standard of proof is the same in all three "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". In this case there is no police officer its just a camera. In California they must prove who was driving the car. I don't see how it could be different in other states but it maybe. Only 1% of these tickets are fought the rest just pay the fine or go to traffic school.

Those of you who think its a slam-dunk as soon as a cop shows up in traffic court then pay your fine and go about your merry way. For those of you with a little back bone, you have the internet google and see what you can fine to help your case go to traffic court and sit in to see what happens before you go.

Here are a few sites http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca-appellate-court-invalidates-80-of-red-light-camera-tickets/

Without photographs showing "appellant" committing the violation, the system must be proven reliable "beyond a reasonable doubt" in order for the people to meet their burden of proof,” Presiding Judge, M*****ne G. Gilliard, wrote.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10901008/detail.htm


Your Honor,

I just read that case you posted and the decision rendered is NOT what you're suggesting here.
That decision was based on THAT particular camara installation and how the angle maybe flawed in determining who is actually in the intersection when the light is against them... That's where the "doubt" comes into play.

Of course if a faulty system or bad cam angles (like in the case cited in Sacramento) are in place in any juristiction and you can prove that.. you stand a chance of having the ticket dismissed....

Good research ...

[Valuist]

I still may contest this ticket. One does not have to go to court to contest; they can write a letter with their side of the story, get it notarized and send it in. Funny thing is, in the two photos, I haven't even entered the intersection. Photo 1 has my car behind the crosswalk line. Photo 2 is 1.4 seconds later and my car has crossed into the crosswalk.....but for good reason. The car in my adjacent lane was a visual obstruction and I could not see eastbound traffic from behind the first line....and obviously the photo shows no pedestians in the area. The irony is in watching the video, AFTER the second photo, I make what appears to maybe be a bit of a rolling stop. If there was any violation, this would be it. If they look at the video, I'll be guilty. If they go just by photos, I think I have a good shot at beating it.

[Marshall Bennett]

Hey Marshall....

Whats the point of installing the camara's if they're gonna let people slide on the tickets???

It is my opinion they never should have been installed in the first place . Let me put it to you this way . Say money were no issue , lets install cameras through-out America , on every street corner , outside every home , in every building . Once you allow machines to patrol and police and make the decisions , what's next ? The installation of cameras at intersections is a small step in this direction . I'd never pay such a ticket , I'd fight it , and I'd win . Trust me .

[slewis]

It is my opinion they never should have been installed in the first place . Let me put it to you this way . Say money were no issue , lets install cameras through-out America , on every street corner , outside every home , in every building . Once you allow machines to patrol and police and make the decisions , what's next ? The installation of cameras at intersections is a small step in this direction . I'd never pay such a ticket , I'd fight it , and I'd win . Trust me .

I hate to break the news to you but camara's are already on every corner in NYC as they've taken a page right out of London's security manuel.

I'll trust you saying you'd win the case in Houston.... dont fight it in other cities because you wont... I also think it's just a matter of time until insurance co's lobby hard enough to have a chip installed in every car... There will be a bar-code on your drivers license. You will need to scan it to drive the car... If you go say 15% over the speed limit... you'll be fined....
Several times and revoked.....

BIG BROTHER HAS ARRIVED!!!!:jump:

[cj's dad]

Maryland has loads of red light cameras and it is posted on a state web site where they are located. The great state of Md. is now in the process of installing speed cameras. It's all about the money !!

Rear end collisions at the red light camera sites are commonplace.

Probably be installing these in the San Francisco area next.

[ezrabrooks]

The Texas Legislature is working to sunset red light cameras (passed the House and now being debated in the Senate). They should be phased out in the next 2-3 years. I am sure they had no desire to tangle with Marshall B!

Ez

[1st time lasix]

Cameras in place in Florida at several intersections on trial basis....just got green light to start the money machine. I laugh when i hear it is for public safety....if it was the fine would be modest. Here they are going to hit anyone pictured pretty darn hard! The companies that put them in...get a cut of the action going forward. $$$$ Yikes!

[Dave Schwartz]

In typical Reno fashion, we have the cameras everywhere. However, they are used for absolutely nothing.

[acorn54]

I hate to break the news to you but camara's are already on every corner in NYC as they've taken a page right out of London's security manuel.

I'll trust you saying you'd win the case in Houston.... dont fight it in other cities because you wont... I also think it's just a matter of time until insurance co's lobby hard enough to have a chip installed in every car... There will be a bar-code on your drivers license. You will need to scan it to drive the car... If you go say 15% over the speed limit... you'll be fined....
Several times and revoked.....

BIG BROTHER HAS ARRIVED!!!!:jump:

there is a simple solution to this. you can do what i do and ride a bike if you stay local. bikes in my area get from point a to point b just about as fast as cars do and it's a heck of alot cheaper. you can walk a bike out of target fully assembled for an adult for 90 bucks.

[The Judge]

has been here for at least 12 years there has to be a sign posted saying you are about to enter a red light intersection, but whats the point you can't read it before you enter the intersection anyway if you are paying attention to the intersection.

The police hated the program and dismissed most of the tickets before they went to the traffic division. Any ticket that was blurred, drivers head turned, driver in hat ,driver in sun glasses, were dismissed by the police department , who reviewed the tickets before they were refered to the traffic department of the City and County.

Even if its civil the person issuing the ticket has some burden of proof to prove their case. Civil its by a perponderance of the evidence that some violation took place. I am not saying its easy to win or that if you fight the ticket you will win I am saying that you "can" win. We as horse players should know the deck is stacked against "us" but when has that stopped us from "going to the window". 50-1 shot just won the Derby.

If part of the offense is "driving" then its only logical that you must show "who" was driving. Maybe the pictures are so clear now that there is no question as to who is driving the car. It wasn't that way a few years ago.

Parking tickets are also civil in nature those are protested all the time and sometimes the protester wins.

[slewis]

there is a simple solution to this. you can do what i do and ride a bike if you stay local. bikes in my area get from point a to point b just about as fast as cars do and it's a heck of alot cheaper. you can walk a bike out of target fully assembled for an adult for 90 bucks.

Yeah,

But it's a pain getting to Saratoga by bike.... All those hills up the damn Adirondacks.....Plus, it's a long painful ride home by car if you lose... It would REALLY be painful by Schwynn!

[DJofSD]

There has been "red light cameras" in San Diego for over ten years.

There has been various challenges the least of which was the "outsourcing" of the tickets to a private firm. That was successfully challenged but now the city administration has been able to rework the relationship so the city now is the issuing authority.

Another salient item that came out was the duration of the yellow lights was being shortened in order to catch more violators. I believe that was finally changed to be more in line with the recommendations from a national organization. It now has the duration set to match the minimum duration for the posted speed.

The initial reason for the installation of the cameras was public safety. Every one knew it was a sham especially when the cities own statistics showed an increase in rear end accidents at the monitored intersections.

Red light cameras are just another way for the city to add another revenue income stream, nothing more.