I felt compelled to write....

[PaceAdvantage]

After reading today's news of Rachel Alexandra and those who wish to see her not race in the Preakness, I felt an urge to write something for the front page...something I don't think I've ever done...

Check it out and let me know what you think:

www.paceadvantage.com (http://www.paceadvantage.com)

[cj]

Nice work. I agree it is silly that this would even be entertained as possible.

However, one thing a lot of people forget is that this sport is about individuals. There is no team, you have to look out for yourself first. Tracks don't care about owners or bettors, owners don't care about bettors or tracks, bettors don't care about tracks or owners. This is probably the biggest problem in the game. Every one is short sighted. To that end, is this whole sad story, even if not a story in the end, really that surprising?

[ryesteve]

let me know what you think
You nailed it...

[theveep]

Amen! My two favorite sports always seem to work against the best interest of the sport--boxing and thoroughbred racing.

[Watcher]

:ThmbUp:

It's certainly disappointing this has hit the wire 6 days before the Preakness. With NBC running commercials touting the entrance of Rachel Alexandra, the ordinary fan and media are bound to jump on this story if she is indeed excluded.

Having both the 50-1 long shot Mine That Bird and the presumed "underdog" filly running in this race is something the industry should praise. At a point in time where many Americans are struggling with the recession and joblessness, latching on and rooting for the underdog becomes the compelling story. This race may very well attract new fans to the sport, regardless of who wins.

[singletax]

PA, I don't post very often but have to say good job! I wish you were the commissioner of horse racing. I am curious what the TV network (NBC) has to say. I think they were running a promo of the filly meeting the boys at the Preakness.

[joanied]

PA...:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :jump: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Fantastic job...couldn't have done better myself;) ... seriously, you should email this to the BloodHorse magazine to use either as a guest editorial or one of the letters they publish every week...I don't think any of their writers could do much better...you done good.

[Zaf]

Great Job PA :ThmbUp:

Z

[CBedo]

I listened to Zayat's interview on TVG and was astounded at his perverse logic why it was ok. What BS. Mr. B was tactful, but basically told him, he was wrong--good for him.

[garyscpa]

It's not all bad news. Think of all of the extra publicity, and RA will probably get in.

[Saratoga_Mike]

After reading today's news of Rachel Alexandra and those who wish to see her not race in the Preakness, I felt an urge to write something for the front page...something I don't think I've ever done...

Check it out and let me know what you think:

www.paceadvantage.com (http://www.paceadvantage.com)

Are the MTB connections and Zayat trying to displace IEAH as the most villified* owners in racing? They're off to a good start.

*my opinion of course

[A. Pineda]

Great commentary.:ThmbUp:

The conspirators truly have no clothes now.

Hoping for a good outcome, but some individuals are immune from shame.

[matthewsiv]

PA

Well done,you have said something that needed to be said.
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Good piece. Right to the point, well written.
That should be distributed .....:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[DRIVEWAY]

Daily Racing Form reports on their website that all the extra entry nonsense has reversed itself.

The door is open for the Filly.

[Relwob Owner]

Daily Racing Form reports on their website that all the extra entry nonsense has reversed itself.

The door is open for the Filly.


Let me preface this by saying that I love the Racing Form and its functions....however, in terms of being an up to date source for the news, it is losing some serious steam......The I Want Revenge scratch appeared on the site over two hours after the press conference and I believe the first article today came up at 9:38.....better to come to Pace Advantage, I say!

[DRIVEWAY]

DRF article posted at 9:56 PM. Seems responsible. Let's hope it's correct.

[Watcher]

Paulick Report reporting the same reversal.

[Niko]

spot on!

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Disagree with the notion that the sport is to blame because this is a case of two owners taking advantage of a loophole in the rules. If the powers that be weren't obligated to abide by the rules governing the race they would put RA in there in a heartbeat; obviously the rule needs to be changed but, in the meantime, they have no choice.

[BetHorses!]

Good Job PA ! :ThmbUp:

[Relwob Owner]

DRF article posted at 9:56 PM. Seems responsible. Let's hope it's correct.


Right, but noyhing during the day? This saga had been going on since noon....

[keilan]

I for one am against the best 3yo fillies ever racing against the top 3 yo colts. Sooner than later the best fillies lose their life so a bunch of race fans can wager, discuss and live in denial about fair competition.

When her previous owners stated that AR wouldn't participate in any of the triple crown races everyone sat knowingly shaken their collective heads yes. They had AR best interest but now under different ownership hell yeah lets is if she can beat the boys.

Should she win "so what" if she is injured and put down will everyone here pound their chests and say "hey that's the risk in game"!!!

Here's a question for you PA -- how much did you enjoy Eight Belles or Rags to Riches last race?

Hey just asking :)

[DJofSD]

I for one am against the best 3yo fillies ever racing against the top 3 yo colts. Sooner than later the best fillies lose their life so a bunch of race fans can wager, discuss and live in denial about fair competition.

When her previous owners stated that AR wouldn't participate in any of the triple crown races everyone sat knowingly shaken their collective heads yes. They had AR best interest but now under different ownership hell yeah lets is if she can beat the boys.

Should she win "so what" if she is injured and put down will everyone here pound their chests and say "hey that's the risk in game"!!!

Here's a question for you PA -- how much did you enjoy Eight Belles or Rags to Riches last race?

Hey just asking :)
Wow. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[fmhealth]

This is perhaps the best example of "Viral Marketing" that I've ever seen. It truly has taken on a life of it's own. Good illustration that when people get interested, they take a greater interest in the topic at hand.

Business in general & racing in particular needs to pay sharper attention to this phenomena. It really does work!

[Burls]

Good job, PA. :ThmbUp:

[fmolf]

a very eloquent commentary on a very unsavory situation...the question here is not whether she should or shouldn't run but the rather unsportsmanlike conduct of the other participants in the supposedly genteel sport of kings! :rolleyes: ...excellent job pa..! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[CincyHorseplayer]

After watching the local news tonight and hearing about this my blood was boiling and the first thing I saw on here was your piece PA.Right on.Nailed everything I thought or felt and informed me of what I didn't know:ThmbUp:

And I agree with others.This is a point of view that needs to be put out in the public eye to be read and I don't think what you wrote could be outshined by much if at all.If you can get it out there,by all means do.

[PaceAdvantage]

Here's a question for you PA -- how much did you enjoy Eight Belles or Rags to Riches last race?

Hey just asking :)As much as I enjoyed Barbaro and Union City's...

Great point Keilan...:rolleyes:

[Nitro]

I for one am against the best 3yo fillies ever racing against the top 3 yo colts. Sooner than later the best fillies lose their life so a bunch of race fans can wager, discuss and live in denial about fair competition.

When her previous owners stated that AR wouldn't participate in any of the triple crown races everyone sat knowingly shaken their collective heads yes. They had AR best interest but now under different ownership hell yeah lets is if she can beat the boys.

Should she win "so what" if she is injured and put down will everyone here pound their chests and say "hey that's the risk in game"!!!

Here's a question for you PA -- how much did you enjoy Eight Belles or Rags to Riches last race?Good post! But you omitted one.
Those of you who selfishly clamor to satisfy their hunger for a battle between the sexes in the name adding competitive excitement to the game or claiming that such a race will draw desperately needed new blood at the windows need to be reminded of perhaps one of racing’s biggest promotional disasters: The Ruffian/Foolish Pleasure match race! In case any of you have forgotten, or weren’t around to witness it, I must say that summer day at Belmont was without a doubt my worst experiences at the track. I was so disgusted and downtrodden by that event that I couldn’t even cash my tickets. There you had the Derby winning colt and a brilliant undefeated filly who was at the top of her game, having crushed every other filly in her path. Ruffian was also a more seasoned animal with credentials that the owners of Rachel Alexandra can only hope to achieve. I mention this unforgettable incident only because as avid player, I also recognize the frailty of these animals when they push themselves beyond the capabilities of their bone structure.

It’s refreshing to see that least someone recognizes the potential downside to this whole affair. On the other hand, it never ceases to amaze me how easily people’s minds are manipulated, particularly by the media sharks and those who feed them. The oldest advertising and promotional gimmick in the book is to generate feverish interest by creating controversy and drama. So if you feel you’ve been duped by this weekend’s announcements, don’t feel bad because it happens to everyone at least once. As evidenced here, their timing was perfect!

[PaceAdvantage]

It’s refreshing to see that least someone recognizes the potential downside to this whole affair.You and Keilan both act as if the market for breaking down in major races has been cornered by those of the female persuasion. You both sit there and arrogantly proclaim that a filly is at greater risk of breaking down simply because she is being entered in a race against males.

I will give you two credit though...at least you're writing this BEFORE the race is run...usually, this kind of rubbish gets thrown up here only after a breakdown occurs.

Here's a newsflash...there is POTENTIAL DOWNSIDE to EVERY SINGLE RACE RUN, male, female, dirt, synthetic, turf...it doesn't matter.

Perhaps we should simply eliminate the sport altogether, thereby guaranteeing not one more breakdown ever during a horse race in the United States.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Rules are rules, and in spite of my "paranoia", if she qualifies (By $$$?), then let her in. Besides, she has them pedigree for it. But there is a $$$ reason to have nominations iIthink, to ensure enough cash to help pay the purse.
I just think females have not done well enough against males in big races to justify Jackson jumping into it if it is just to stroke his ego and buy the race. Actually, I would rather see her run against the boys on turf or poly!!

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Allen also told HRTV that he intends to enter INDY EXPRESS (A.P. Indy), a maiden owned by Fourteen Enterprises, in which he has an interest. Indy Express is winless in nine career starts and has earnings of $12,618....LUV GOV, who broke his maiden on the Kentucky Derby Day program"
If these 2 go it will make a mockery of the Preakness and graded stakes competition. I would like to hear from those who were redboard knocking MTB for not having done enough!

[WinterTriangle]

LUV GOV, who broke his maiden on the Kentucky Derby Day program

Well it seems they have now decided to (make a gracious sacrafice) and forego entering Luv Gov.....reportedly because they want RA to get in....good sportmanship and all that.

(Do you guys think I'm getting too cynical? :) )

But c'mon. If Luv Gov was a track-eater, he would be in the race, you can be sure of it?

[NY BRED]

PA :

Great post, just several items to review.

I believe I heard Ms. Whitney would scratch if Rachel was unable to enter
(which I think would allow her to be included in the field).

Maybe you'd like to fire a round at the MTB owners who instigated
this scenario?

I'm still beating the drm for someone to fully investigate these owners
and the havoc created by this so called wonder horse..

[Quagmire]

Well done, PA.

[ryesteve]

it never ceases to amaze me how easily people’s minds are manipulatedYeah, kinda like how someone's mind has been manipulated into thinking fillies are inherently fragile because of a tragedy that occurred over 30 years ago.

[Robert Fischer]

nice editorial PA.

Zayat is full of phoney excuses - that the preakness is somehow a stallion showcase above all else (obviously Mine That Bird is a Gelding, and Rachel Alexandra is just as capable of representing Medaglia D'oro as MTB is of representing Birdstone.)

Or playing to the fallacy that fillies and mares are somehow at a greater risk racing against males...

Or whining about how unfair it is that Rachel didn't face the disadvantage of running in the Kentucky Derby. :faint:

This can only play against Pioneerof the Nile as stallion prospect, unless the horse goes on to prove that his owner's lack of confidence is unfounded.

[turfnsport]

Good post! But you omitted one.
Those of you who selfishly clamor to satisfy their hunger for a battle between the sexes in the name adding competitive excitement to the game or claiming that such a race will draw desperately needed new blood at the windows need to be reminded of perhaps one of racing’s biggest promotional disasters: The Ruffian/Foolish Pleasure match race! In case any of you have forgotten, or weren’t around to witness it, I must say that summer day at Belmont was without a doubt my worst experiences at the track. I was so disgusted and downtrodden by that event that I couldn’t even cash my tickets. There you had the Derby winning colt and a brilliant undefeated filly who was at the top of her game, having crushed every other filly in her path. Ruffian was also a more seasoned animal with credentials that the owners of Rachel Alexandra can only hope to achieve. I mention this unforgettable incident only because as avid player, I also recognize the frailty of these animals when they push themselves beyond the capabilities of their bone structure.

It’s refreshing to see that least someone recognizes the potential downside to this whole affair. On the other hand, it never ceases to amaze me how easily people’s minds are manipulated, particularly by the media sharks and those who feed them. The oldest advertising and promotional gimmick in the book is to generate feverish interest by creating controversy and drama. So if you feel you’ve been duped by this weekend’s announcements, don’t feel bad because it happens to everyone at least once. As evidenced here, their timing was perfect!

Oh please...females race against the boys in Europe all the time. But hey, let's bring up a race that occurred over THIRTY years ago to make your point.

There is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex.

[fmolf]

Oh please...females race against the boys in Europe all the time. But hey, let's bring up a race that occurred over THIRTY years ago to make your point.

There is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex.
the also race in foal at times. i saw it at saratoga two years ago why must people make it a sex thing...the horse deserves to race if her connections so desire......she can take a bad step anywhere...iwr did!

[andicap]

Oh please...females race against the boys in Europe all the time. But hey, let's bring up a race that occurred over THIRTY years ago to make your point.

There is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex.


What do you mean, no proof? You don't accept that anecdotal evidence is based in scientific orthodoxy? I know the sample size is laughable, not to mention the lack of any studies -- not even bad ones! -- but c'mon go with the flow, go with the crowd, go with the conventional wisdom. Yeah, the same CW that said Mine That Bird could not in a million years win the KD.

The Ruffian example -- that was a match race for crissakes! Match races aren't healthy for ANY horse, male or female. That's why you don't see them anymore.

And how do you know Eight Belles' tragedy was caused by being the "weaker" sex? There could have been a million reasons for her breakdown, none of them having to do with her being a filly.

What about Genuine Risk? Sure that was 35 years ago when horses were built like horses instead of skinny supermodels but if you're going to bring up Ruffian.......

[garyoz]

In what is typical for the racing industry, this will have the unintended consequences for increasing viewership and probably handle. Amazing how it works. It's almost like we have a Greek Drama--clearly visible villan (MTB's connnections) and the pure of heart heroine (forget for the week that there's an Asmussen connection). All the drama for NBC's pre-race coverage and candid shots during the running. It would be great if it were part of a PR strategy instead of an unsportsman-like strategy from some of racing's low-lifes.

I was looking forward to watching MTB lose before RA even entered the picture. I am looking even more forward to it. With no cement runway to use, I'll be happy to toss the gelding out of any exotic. I wonder what the MTB connections excuses will be? Want to bet they don't do a postrace interview?

[onefast99]

"Allen also told HRTV that he intends to enter INDY EXPRESS (A.P. Indy), a maiden owned by Fourteen Enterprises, in which he has an interest. Indy Express is winless in nine career starts and has earnings of $12,618....LUV GOV, who broke his maiden on the Kentucky Derby Day program"
If these 2 go it will make a mockery of the Preakness and graded stakes competition. I would like to hear from those who were redboard knocking MTB for not having done enough!
When originally asked the question Allen didn't even know the horses names. The MTB group has gone from heros to zeros in less then 3 weeks.

[cj's dad]

Mike, excellent article - I suggest you send a copy to TVG and HRTV.

[philcski]

What do you mean, no proof? You don't accept that anecdotal evidence is based in scientific orthodoxy? I know the sample size is laughable, not to mention the lack of any studies -- not even bad ones! -- but c'mon go with the flow, go with the crowd, go with the conventional wisdom. Yeah, the same CW that said Mine That Bird could not in a million years win the KD.

The Ruffian example -- that was a match race for crissakes! Match races aren't healthy for ANY horse, male or female. That's why you don't see them anymore.

And how do you know Eight Belles' tragedy was caused by being the "weaker" sex? There could have been a million reasons for her breakdown, none of them having to do with her being a filly.

What about Genuine Risk? Sure that was 35 years ago when horses were built like horses instead of skinny supermodels but if you're going to bring up Ruffian.......

What? While I agree with your post premise, Eight Belles was actually one of the biggest animals in the field last year. It was between her and Proud Spell as to who would go in the Derby and who would go in the Oaks, and Jones decided tiny Proud Spell would have problems with the physical nature of the Derby and the strappier Eight Belles would be able to take a bump (and she did).

Nice writeup, PA. :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

All of you that seem to think racing mares against stallions is a problem, you seem to forget that out in the real world, horses are not separated by sex.

Furthermore, I would wager that given a mixed group of horses in a herd, you'd have to get up real close and look between the legs of each horse to be able to tell the difference between a mare and a stallion.

[joanied]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/collusion-an-online-firestorm-and-surrender/

Hey PA...'paceadvantage' is mentioned and highlighted as a link in Ray Paulick's report on the 'get Rachel out of the Preakness' fiasco... sweet:cool:

PaceAdvantage:jump:

[keilan]

You and Keilan both act as if the market for breaking down in major races has been cornered by those of the female persuasion. You both sit there and arrogantly proclaim that a filly is at greater risk of breaking down simply because she is being entered in a race against males.

I will give you two credit though...at least you're writing this BEFORE the race is run...usually, this kind of rubbish gets thrown up here only after a breakdown occurs.

Here's a newsflash...there is POTENTIAL DOWNSIDE to EVERY SINGLE RACE RUN, male, female, dirt, synthetic, turf...it doesn't matter.

Perhaps we should simply eliminate the sport altogether, thereby guaranteeing not one more breakdown ever during a horse race in the United States.


Serious question -- do you believe male and female horses are created equally? Yes or no will suffice.

[joanied]

What? While I agree with your post premise, Eight Belles was actually one of the biggest animals in the field last year. It was between her and Proud Spell as to who would go in the Derby and who would go in the Oaks, and Jones decided tiny Proud Spell would have problems with the physical nature of the Derby and the strappier Eight Belles would be able to take a bump (and she did).

Nice writeup, PA. :ThmbUp:

Good post...it reflects something I said about colts vs fillies...IMO, nothing wrong with racing fillies against the colts as long as the filly is comparable in size & build... Larry Jones called it right...a little thing like Proud Spell wouldn't deal with a race like the Derby well at all...but an Eight Belles, Rachel A, or Zenyatta are just as strong, tough and intimidating as the colts.

About that post that sights Ruffian's breakdown in the Match Race...I was there too...but not as a fan in the Grandstand, but I was working at Belmont...Ruffian didn't break down because she was running head to head with a colt...she broke down because she was hell bent in all her races, was hard on herself, both her parents had terrible bones, both were put down due to broken legs (and they didn't get them in a race either)...Ruffian sustained a hind leg break as a 2 yar old...I'm sorry to say this, but the writting was already on the wall for Ruffian...she was an accident waiting to happen...it was going to happen sooner or later.

[toussaud]

i really don't even think size has anything to do with it.

Goldikova was a cute little thing. Oujia board was about the plainest looking mare I have ever seen in my life. pretty darn avg looking in all respects including size.

in the stretch goldikova told kippy you can watch my cute little backside as I run by you

[joanied]

i really don't even think size has anything to do with it.

Goldikova was a cute little thing. Oujia board was about the plainest looking mare I have ever seen in my life. pretty darn avg looking in all respects including size.

in the stretch goldikova told kippy you can watch my cute little backside as I run by you

Well, yes, that is true...about those two fillies/mares...but actually, toussaud, I was talking about the Derby...could you imagine a little thing like Proud Spell in mid pack being squeezed by 8 or 9 16 hand colts...makes me cringe.
But your examples are good ones.

[ManeMediaMogul]

It's not all bad news. Think of all of the extra publicity, and RA will probably get in.

You are right Gary, any publicity is good publicity, especially when sports page editors are stingy with column inches for horseracing.

These entry situations arise from time to time and the participants are certainly within their legal rights to enter eligible horses to preclude another horse's entry. (Believe me, if the shoe was on the other foot, Jess Jackson would probably do everything in his power to keep the field as absent of contenders as possible.)

The rub is, it is not very sportsmanlike to do that.

I am a firm believer in Karma, but it often seems that the owners who enter a sub-par horse in the Derby to exclude another, the trainers who screw their clients and the jockeys that cheat on their wives are the ones that do all the good. Their negative Karma may appear in other facets of their life but it is barely evident at the track.

It is written that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. Jackson, Zayat, Whitney, Allen et al might have a little trouble at the pearly gates but they play in rarified air on earth and are not likely to be very "sporting" when noteriety and fortune are on the line. They are accustomed to winning and subscribe to the late, great trainer Charlie Whittingham's theory:

"You've got to squash the ants before they eat the whole picnic."

[Cratos]

After reading today's news of Rachel Alexandra and those who wish to see her not race in the Preakness, I felt an urge to write something for the front page...something I don't think I've ever done...

Check it out and let me know what you think:

www.paceadvantage.com (http://www.paceadvantage.com)
PA, your discourse was well written, but I am not bothered because Rachel Alexandra runs off and wins the KY Oaks by 20+ lengths and there is an outcry because some of the owners of nominated and entered horses to this year’s Preakness were colluding to keep this brilliant filly out of the race by using a loophole in the rules.

However I do find the Rachel Alexandra hoopla puzzling in that last year when Zenyetta was running and winning there wasn’t nearly this amount of noise about her and she was dominant and more accomplished than Rachel Alexandra is now.

Also, I am neither anti-Rachel Alexandra nor pro-MTB, I just want see a good horserace and historical evidence suggests that putting those two in the same race won’t necessarily warrant memories of an Affirmed-Alydar duel.

But I for one want Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness and for selfish reasons which are I don’t believe that she can beat the “boys” and if the race has a legitimate lively pace, her instant popularity should transfer into some under bet contenders.

And if speedsters like Big Drama and Join in the Dance start this will spell trouble for the filly because her forte has been speed and challenged early speed very seldom wins the race.

[ezgoerbaby79]

Serious question -- do you believe male and female horses are created equally? Yes or no will suffice.

I believe they are. When put with males (usually geldings) in a pasture situation, the mares are USUALLY the bosses. Generally one female is dominant, and this occurs in wild horse herds as well, and the dominant female often has rank over the stallion.

[DJofSD]

I believe they are. When put with males (usually geldings) in a pasture situation, the mares are USUALLY the bosses. Generally one female is dominant, and this occurs in wild horse herds as well, and the dominant female often has rank over the stallion.
Exactly right. Go to the head of the class!

[cj]

PA, your discourse was well written, but I am not bothered because Rachel Alexandra runs off and wins the KY Oaks by 20+ lengths and there is an outcry because some of the owners of nominated and entered horses to this year’s Preakness were colluding to keep this brilliant filly out of the race by using a loophole in the rules.

However I do find the Rachel Alexandra hoopla puzzling in that last year when Zenyetta was running and winning there wasn’t nearly this amount of noise about her and she was dominant and more accomplished than Rachel Alexandra is now.

Also, I am neither anti-Rachel Alexandra nor pro-MTB, I just want see a good horserace and historical evidence suggests that putting those two in the same race won’t necessarily warrant memories of an Affirmed-Alydar duel.

But I for one want Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness and for selfish reasons which are I don’t believe that she can beat the “boys” and if the race has a legitimate lively pace, her instant popularity should transfer into some under bet contenders.

And if speedsters like Big Drama and Join in the Dance start this will spell trouble for the filly because her forte has been speed and challenged early speed very seldom wins the race.

Of course Rachel gets more hoopla, as you say, because the Triple Crown is the most important stage in racing. At Rachel's age, Zenyatta had yet to race. It really isn't that puzzling.

I agree with you that she will be a big underlay and worth taking on at the window.

[ezgoerbaby79]

Exactly right. Go to the head of the class!

This however, does not mean I think she'll win Saturday...because I don't. I can't wait to see the race though.

[Imriledup]

I think that this 'controversy' is really good for racing. It just creates a buzz surrounding this race. Whether RA runs or doesn't run, the bottom line is that everyone is talking about it.

As long as no one is actually breaking the rules, its all fair in love and war.

[DJofSD]

I want to see RA in the race too. But my opinion differs. I think taking a full measure of the various horses, RA is toughest.

Will RA wilt as a result of the early heated pace? Maybe. I think she'll let the others go and hopefully the size three hat in the saddle will not try to persuade her the go with them or catch up. It's 9 and 1/2 furlongs and there will be plenty of time for that early speed to burn itself out while RA will have plenty left. She's a horse that has a full measure of herself.

The one match up that I think would be the race of the decade would be one with both QR and RA. Now there would be a battle of wills.

[JustRalph]

I believe they are. When put with males (usually geldings) in a pasture situation, the mares are USUALLY the bosses. Generally one female is dominant, and this occurs in wild horse herds as well, and the dominant female often has rank over the stallion.


Just Like West Hollywood................

[Indulto]

Nice piece, PA.

Do you think this Preakness plot have ever been hatched if it had been Rachel’s previous connections that had decided to run?

Apparently any aversion to Jackson’s agenda for his acquisition has evaporated, and all negative press is now the property of racing’s latest version of Curly and Larry. It was hilarious when the content of the press interniews of the two clueless colluders collided in the media with varying versions of who contacted whom.

[keilan]

I believe they are. When put with males (usually geldings) in a pasture situation, the mares are USUALLY the bosses. Generally one female is dominant, and this occurs in wild horse herds as well, and the dominant female often has rank over the stallion.

That has nothing to do with what we are talking about but nice try.

Mares and the females of most animals are dominant (if you wish to describe it as such) for many reasons but maybe you should have spent sometime understanding the dynamics of sexual science. Hopefully you can understand this -- Mares have what stallions want!!!

[keilan]

Exactly right. Go to the head of the class!


Don't act like a dolt :bang:

[DJofSD]

To quote Homer: D'oh!

[keilan]

To quote Homer: D'oh!


Who's Homer -- is that a kids show?

[magwell]

Just Like West Hollywood................ Now that is way fuuny.........:lol:

[DJofSD]

Who's Homer -- is that a kids show?
Well, it certainly isn't a reference to the Iliad.

[PurplePower]

PA you wrote a well thought out piece. I don't agree with all of your opinion, but I did enjoy reading the professional way you presented that opinion.

I find some of the reaction to the discussion of possibly keeping Rachel out as though this was the first time something like this ever happened in a triple crown event. In 2002 Bob Baffert entered Danthebluegrassman in the Derby to keep out competition for War Emblem, then scratched him and ran him in the Lone Star Derby the next weekend. One of those was Repent, the next one that would have gotten in was Asmussen's Windward Passage. I do not think for one minute that if Jess Jackson had the Derby winner in this race, that Bob Baffert had been the buyer of RA, and that there were 13 runners going to enter, that Mr. Jackson and Mr. Asmussen would not enter one of their nominated runners to keep her out. And they would say, "it's business".

So what happened to the "This is a business" discussion when the "JJ/SA" team bought RA and changed the entire dynamics of the 3-year old picture. In business, companies do what they can to ensure their profitability - even to the extent of buying out a competitor and dismantling it. Those billionaires that do that are revered as icons of business. But horsemen that "discuss" a similar possibility are drawn and quartered here.

The fact that entering enough runners to exclude RA was discussed, the racing world expressed their disgust and the principals changed their minds based on that expression suggests that the racing world dynamics DID work for a change. Whether it was in the "best interest of racing" will be determined on Preakness Saturday.

[JPinMaryland]

What I dont get is why you would write an op ed piece without signing your name? There's a reason op ed pieces are supposed to have a real person's name attached to them. Not some domain name.. :ThmbDown:

[Nitro]

You and Keilan both act as if the market for breaking down in major races has been cornered by those of the female persuasion. You both sit there and arrogantly proclaim that a filly is at greater risk of breaking down simply because she is being entered in a race against males.

I will give you two credit though...at least you're writing this BEFORE the race is run...usually, this kind of rubbish gets thrown up here only after a breakdown occurs.

Here's a newsflash...there is POTENTIAL DOWNSIDE to EVERY SINGLE RACE RUN, male, female, dirt, synthetic, turf...it doesn't matter.

Perhaps we should simply eliminate the sport altogether, thereby guaranteeing not one more breakdown ever during a horse race in the United States. “Arrogantly proclaim”? "Rubbish"? Come on now! My earlier post simply made note of the fact that race promoters in some instances use the “battle of the sexes” to create controversy and thus stimulate the masses in order to create an aura of grandeur about an upcoming racing event. I used the Ruffian/Foolish Pleasure match race as an example that at the time completely back-fired, and turned-off more people then anything else.

By the way I also thought your piece was well written. I believe your heart was in the right place concerning what you believed to be some unfair manipulation. However, I also believe that your reaction as well as those of others was to a well-staged and perfectly timed dog-and-pony show.


In what is typical for the racing industry, this will have the unintended consequences for increasing viewership and probably handle. Amazing how it works. It's almost like we have a Greek Drama--clearly visible villan (MTB's connnections) and the pure of heart heroine (forget for the week that there's an Asmussen connection). All the drama for NBC's pre-race coverage and candid shots during the running. It would be great if it were part of a PR strategy instead of an unsportsman-like strategy from some of racing's low-lifes. This is not unintended at all and is exactly the strategy that I eluded to. Come on folks when was the last time you heard of private telephone conversations between owners, trainers and the like being made public?
H-e-l-l-o-o-o-o-o!


I think that this 'controversy' is really good for racing. It just creates a buzz surrounding this race. Whether RA runs or doesn't run, the bottom line is that everyone is talking about it. That’s exactly the intentions for reaching their goals. It’s just unfortunate they have to go such lengths to capture an audience and create a potentially counter productive incident.


Yeah, kinda like how someone's mind has been manipulated into thinking fillies are inherently fragile because of a tragedy that occurred over 30 years ago. People with you’re way of thinking never seem to learn from past mistakes. Unfortunately historical information is very often forgotten. If our minds can’t be manipulated by past factual information, I’m wondering how you or anyone else can comprehend the Racing Form? Besides the purpose of my post was to simply acknowledge the ploys that are used to generate sensationalism about a racing event. History also shows how the pied-piper can lead people into a frenzy about what? A horserace?


Oh please...females race against the boys in Europe all the time. But hey, let's bring up a race that occurred over THIRTY years ago to make your point.

There is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex. You’re absolutely correct, but what type of surface are they running on (All of the time in Europe!)? And as some have previously pointed out, the breed certainly had a lot more stamina and durability then it does today. If you started playing the horses last week I can sympathize with your remarks and knowledge of the game.


Serious question -- do you believe male and female horses are created equally? Yes or no will suffice. Good question! However, I’m afraid until those who are counting sheep in the pastures wake up and realize that we’re talking about racetracks and not about some grazing land. They might also take note of every track record that’s been set and acknowledge which sex ACTUALLY set them. Only then perhaps will they be able to adequately answer that question - Seriously! Oh, but I forgot that’s only more historical information to be ignored. Besides, its only numbers! Who needs to use those criteria to make judgment calls about racing events or those who participate in them?

In the grand scope of things many here might be betting what, $20, $200, maybe $2000 that something might or might not happen in the Preakness? Well, there’s a new owner of RA that just spent how many millions on a potentially great filly? Is he willing to risk that investment in a race where he would win how much? I guarantee that his biggest bet will be made with Lloyds of London that something might happen! So while everyone is worrying about their bets, some will hoping that nothing dramatic happens to another great animal whose previous connections I believe had its best intentions in mind and not necessarily those who crave this type of competition.

[PaceAdvantage]

Serious question -- do you believe male and female horses are created equally? Yes or no will suffice.I know that there are some female horses that are physically larger than some of their male counterparts...so no...they aren't created equally.

[PaceAdvantage]

What I dont get is why you would write an op ed piece without signing your name? There's a reason op ed pieces are supposed to have a real person's name attached to them. Not some domain name.. :ThmbDown:First off, it's an editorial, not an op-ed. If I asked you to write an opinion, THAT would be an op-ed.

Secondly, there is no reason to sign my name. Is there ever a name attached to the editorials in the New York Times?

[PaceAdvantage]

So while everyone is worrying about their bets, some will hoping that nothing dramatic happens to another great animal whose previous connections I believe had its best intentions in mind and not necessarily those who crave this type of competition.When your line of thinking becomes the norm, it will be time to stop the game altogether. I couldn't disagree with you more over virtually everything you've brought up thus far in this thread.

[WinterTriangle]

I used to be in advertising. The shennanigans were endless. :)

So, the one statement from the previous poster I had to look at twice: "when was the last time you heard of private telephone conversations between owners, trainers and the like being made public? Helllllo?"

This set up some red flags for me.

There is far more going on here than we will ever know. We have a dying racetrack (Pim), a bad economy, etc. We have no idea how the ad and PR people plan behind the scenes. I've been in those meetings in ad agencies on Madison Ave., so I can't discount it completely. :)

Eh, it's just another horse race to me.

[Nitro]

When your line of thinking becomes the norm, it will be time to stop the game altogether. I couldn't disagree with you more over virtually everything you've brought up thus far in this thread.That’s too bad, because I generally like to tell it like it is. Whether anyone wants to accept the realties (the norm) of our society is another question they’ll have to reconcile for themselves.

Perhaps you should revisit a movie called “Network” that was released in 1976. It’s all about TV ratings and the lengths to which some might go to achieve them. The bottom line of course is money and getting the biggest bang for the buck for the advertisers involved in special events like the Preakness. If an audience can be increased exponentially by promotional gimmickry what do you suppose that means to those who advertise?

[turfnsport]

“
You’re absolutely correct, but what type of surface are they running on (All of the time in Europe!)? And as some have previously pointed out, the breed certainly had a lot more stamina and durability then it does today. If you started playing the horses last week I can sympathize with your remarks and knowledge of the game.


Judging from your posts, it appears you may have started playing the horses last week as you seem to lack a basic knowledge of the game.


It is correct the breed does not have the durability it did generations ago. But that goes for the male and female side...So once again, I stand by my statement that there is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex.

If there is a medical study I am unaware of, please enlighten me.

[ryesteve]

promotional gimmickryLetting the best horse (arguably) enter the race hardly constitutes "promotional gimmickry"

And with all of your talk of "learning from past mistakes", please explain why you're focusing on this gender issue, rather than advocating the elimination of the Triple Crown and Breeder's Cup races. The mortality rate in those races has been astronomical over the past few years. You don't need to go back 30+ years to find a problem there. Is this hypocrisy reflective of underlying misogynistic attitudes, or merely a patronizing view towards females?

[keilan]

I know that there are some female horses that are physically larger than some of their male counterparts...so no...they aren't created equally.


You're pathetic :bang:

[keilan]

Judging from your posts, it appears you may have started playing the horses last week as you seem to lack a basic knowledge of the game.


It is correct the breed does not have the durability it did generations ago. But that goes for the male and female side...So once again, I stand by my statement that there is no proof, NONE WHATSOEVER, that running a filly against males is more dangerous than running one against their own sex.

If there is a medical study I am unaware of, please enlighten me.


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, guess what?

And you want a medical study?

When you take the best 3yo fillies and run them against the best 3yo colts and run them at distances they have NEVER run before, at pace times they have NEVER run before, with a jock on their back asking them for everything they have terrible things happen to these fragile animals.

The best fillies are always the gamest and they will push themselves passed the point where they will breakdown. Vitamins / steroids and other meds allow them to reach speeds and race distances that they structurally can sustain.

You and many here talk like newbies, maybe try using a little common sense. The type of proof you are asking for demonstrates your lack of understanding of the topic.

[keilan]

“Arrogantly proclaim”? "Rubbish"? Come on now! My earlier post simply made note of the fact that race promoters in some instances use the “battle of the sexes” to create controversy and thus stimulate the masses in order to create an aura of grandeur about an upcoming racing event. I used the Ruffian/Foolish Pleasure match race as an example that at the time completely back-fired, and turned-off more people then anything else.

By the way I also thought your piece was well written. I believe your heart was in the right place concerning what you believed to be some unfair manipulation. However, I also believe that your reaction as well as those of others was to a well-staged and perfectly timed dog-and-pony show.

This is not unintended at all and is exactly the strategy that I eluded to. Come on folks when was the last time you heard of private telephone conversations between owners, trainers and the like being made public?
H-e-l-l-o-o-o-o-o!

That’s exactly the intentions for reaching their goals. It’s just unfortunate they have to go such lengths to capture an audience and create a potentially counter productive incident.

People with you’re way of thinking never seem to learn from past mistakes. Unfortunately historical information is very often forgotten. If our minds can’t be manipulated by past factual information, I’m wondering how you or anyone else can comprehend the Racing Form? Besides the purpose of my post was to simply acknowledge the ploys that are used to generate sensationalism about a racing event. History also shows how the pied-piper can lead people into a frenzy about what? A horserace?

You’re absolutely correct, but what type of surface are they running on (All of the time in Europe!)? And as some have previously pointed out, the breed certainly had a lot more stamina and durability then it does today. If you started playing the horses last week I can sympathize with your remarks and knowledge of the game.

Good question! However, I’m afraid until those who are counting sheep in the pastures wake up and realize that we’re talking about racetracks and not about some grazing land. They might also take note of every track record that’s been set and acknowledge which sex ACTUALLY set them. Only then perhaps will they be able to adequately answer that question - Seriously! Oh, but I forgot that’s only more historical information to be ignored. Besides, its only numbers! Who needs to use those criteria to make judgment calls about racing events or those who participate in them?

In the grand scope of things many here might be betting what, $20, $200, maybe $2000 that something might or might not happen in the Preakness? Well, there’s a new owner of RA that just spent how many millions on a potentially great filly? Is he willing to risk that investment in a race where he would win how much? I guarantee that his biggest bet will be made with Lloyds of London that something might happen! So while everyone is worrying about their bets, some will hoping that nothing dramatic happens to another great animal whose previous connections I believe had its best intentions in mind and not necessarily those who crave this type of competition.


I'll see if I can get Mike to feature this as the post of the year!!!

[keilan]

PA you wrote a well thought out piece. I don't agree with all of your opinion, but I did enjoy reading the professional way you presented that opinion.

I find some of the reaction to the discussion of possibly keeping Rachel out as though this was the first time something like this ever happened in a triple crown event. In 2002 Bob Baffert entered Danthebluegrassman in the Derby to keep out competition for War Emblem, then scratched him and ran him in the Lone Star Derby the next weekend. One of those was Repent, the next one that would have gotten in was Asmussen's Windward Passage. I do not think for one minute that if Jess Jackson had the Derby winner in this race, that Bob Baffert had been the buyer of RA, and that there were 13 runners going to enter, that Mr. Jackson and Mr. Asmussen would not enter one of their nominated runners to keep her out. And they would say, "it's business".

So what happened to the "This is a business" discussion when the "JJ/SA" team bought RA and changed the entire dynamics of the 3-year old picture. In business, companies do what they can to ensure their profitability - even to the extent of buying out a competitor and dismantling it. Those billionaires that do that are revered as icons of business. But horsemen that "discuss" a similar possibility are drawn and quartered here.

The fact that entering enough runners to exclude RA was discussed, the racing world expressed their disgust and the principals changed their minds based on that expression suggests that the racing world dynamics DID work for a change. Whether it was in the "best interest of racing" will be determined on Preakness Saturday.


Purple Power -- please don't blurr they're vision/rants with facts. :rolleyes:

[turfnsport]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, guess what?

And you want a medical study?

When you take the best 3yo fillies and run them against the best 3yo colts and run them at distances they have NEVER run before, at pace times they have NEVER run before, with a jock on their back asking them for everything they have terrible things happen to these fragile animals.

The best fillies are always the gamest and they will push themselves passed the point where they will breakdown. Vitamins / steroids and other meds allow them to reach speeds and race distances that they structurally can sustain.

You and many here talk like newbies, maybe try using a little common sense. The type of proof you are asking for demonstrates your lack of understanding of the topic.

Actually I was just looking for ANY proof.

You wrote, "The best fillies are always the gamest and they will push themselves passed the point where they will breakdown."

What the **** are you basing that on? Eight Belles? ONE race?

[ryesteve]

I'll say one thing about Nitro... at least I appreciate the way he will organize and consolidate all of his responses into one cogent post, rather than spamming the thread with one meaningless one-liner after another...

[keilan]

Actually I was just looking for ANY proof.

You wrote, "The best fillies are always the gamest and they will push themselves passed the point where they will breakdown."

What the **** are you basing that on? Eight Belles? ONE race?

It's not my mandate to teach or convince anyone of anything, go on believing what you will.

There is a God but sorry I can't give you the proof you're looking for.

[46zilzal]

Friends at Claiborne thought that Winning Colors was "studdish" from hormones and she had a hard time getting in foal as well. Evidence of tampering

[keilan]

I'll say one thing about Nitro... at least I appreciate the way he will organize and consolidate all of his responses into one cogent post, rather than spamming the thread with one meaningless one-liner after another...


Go away -- have you ever written anything that was relevant?

[turfnsport]

It's not my mandate to teach or convince anyone of anything, go on believing what you will.

There is a God but sorry I can't give you the proof you're looking for.

Nor can you answer the simple question that was in my post.

Go figure. :rolleyes:

[keilan]

Friends at Claiborne thought that Winning Colors was "studdish" from hormones and she had a hard time getting in foal as well. Evidence of tampering


46 -- they're examples of this all the time, it's called "the program", and that's what I was eluding to in a early post. Vitamins / steroids and other meds allow them to reach speeds and race distances that they structurally can't sustain.

[ryesteve]

Go away -- have you ever written anything that was relevant?Some people think so. If you don't, trust me, I won't lose any sleep over it.

[keilan]

Nor can you answer the simple question that was in my post.

Go figure. :rolleyes:


listen --quit with the comeback of it's a simple question, therefore if I can't empirically answer it then my observations aren't valid.

It's not a simple question and there isn't any satisfactory way of proving it categorically. There are simply too many variables that exist. Do you understand this?

[DeanT]

When you take the best 3yo fillies and run them against the best 3yo colts and run them at distances they have NEVER run before, at pace times they have NEVER run before, with a jock on their back asking them for everything they have terrible things happen to these fragile animals.


I am having a bit of trouble understanding your point. Does not something similar happen on a daily basis in same sex races, with faster animals?

If a filly, entered against other fillies who is game as hell but up in class stretching out and outclassed, the same thing occurs - she is pushing herself beyond her limits trying to catch the speed of faster horses. It is irrelevant the sex of the animal; she does not know she is racing a horse with testicles or not, just that he/she is faster and she has to go get em.

If you are just saying that stressing a filly in a fast race can lead to a higher risk of breakdowns, then I would agree and RA or any filly against faster horses would have this occur. But I just think this happens about every day in our sport, it is not solely a part of classic races or non same sex ones.

[ezgoerbaby79]

That has nothing to do with what we are talking about but nice try.

Mares and the females of most animals are dominant (if you wish to describe it as such) for many reasons but maybe you should have spent sometime understanding the dynamics of sexual science. Hopefully you can understand this -- Mares have what stallions want!!!


Wow, who pissed in your corn flakes? All I was saying was that they are created at least equal...and what was your point in inferring that they aren't? Where is your proof? Nice try. :rolleyes:

[turfnsport]

listen --quit with the comeback of it's a simple question, therefore if I can't empirically answer it then my observations aren't valid.

It's not a simple question and there isn't any satisfactory way of proving it categorically. There are simply too many variables that exist. Do you understand this?

I just got off the phone with NOW.

They think you are nuts.

[ezgoerbaby79]

Also, for the record...I don't think RA should run in the Preakness, but it has nothing to do with her being a filly. A horse I took care of for a short time won the Derby, and finished second in both the Preakness (maybe should've won that one), and the Belmont. Guess who that was? Maybe you have heard of her. She was a filly. So the argument that fillies break down when they run against colts is pretty ridiculous. This one would've retired completely sound if not for getting out and running her knee into a fire hydrant.

[Robert Fischer]

If a filly, entered against other fillies who is game as hell but up in class stretching out and outclassed, the same thing occurs - she is pushing herself beyond her limits trying to catch the speed of faster horses. It is irrelevant the sex of the animal; she does not know she is racing a horse with testicles or not, just that he/she is faster and she has to go get em.

We are on the same page here with this logic.

Bad steps happen every day, but an animal is either sound or their not.
If it's sound there should be no extraordinary risk to running up in class. If they are unsound he/she has absolutely no business racing, period.

[fmolf]

We are on the same page here with this logic.

Bad steps happen every day, but an animal is either sound or their not.
If it's sound there should be no extraordinary risk to running up in class. If they are unsound he/she has absolutely no business racing, period.
i think they have proven in europe that fillies/mares can compete with the boys with no detrimental effects simply from being a female horse, racing against males..it is a more common ocurrence across the pond with no stigma attached!

[ezgoerbaby79]

i think they have proven in europe that fillies/mares can compete with the boys with no detrimental effects simply from being a female horse, racing against males..it is a more common ocurrence across the pond with no stigma attached!


Don't use this perfectly good logic to make a point, they will simply trash it because those are turf races. We've just had a couple of high profile filly breakdowns in this country, and that's all these people will see or acknowledge. They forget and dishonor the fillies that proved themselves against males time and again with their nonsense. I'm sure PETA would be glad to have them.

[ryesteve]

Also, for the record...I don't think RA should run in the Preakness, but it has nothing to do with her being a filly.I might regret asking, but I'm curious... what is the reason?

[46zilzal]

i think they have proven in europe that fillies/mares can compete with the boys with no detrimental effects simply from being a female horse, racing against males..it is a more common ocurrence across the pond with no stigma attached!
GRASS has always been a more equivalent surface

[ezgoerbaby79]

What I think about it is irrelevant but I think it's a rush job. She wasn't initially pointed for the race, so I think they are going to play catchup a little bit. That and she has lost both times coming off 2 weeks between races. But, I won't complain because I want to see the best race the best. I don't think she'll win Saturday (don't get me wrong, I LIKE this filly, a lot), but good luck to her and hope everyone comes home sound.

[JPinMaryland]

First off, it's an editorial, not an op-ed. If I asked you to write an opinion, THAT would be an op-ed.

Secondly, there is no reason to sign my name. Is there ever a name attached to the editorials in the New York Times?


I really dont understand where you're getting your information. I have gone to the NY Times and did a search for "op ed policy" I come up with the first ten op ed pieces, ALL OF THEM ARE SIGNED.

Here are the signees: T. Friedman, P Krugman (3x) Ross Douthat; Vaclev Havel; Dimitry Rogozin; ALi Zardari et al; Leslie Gelb.

Okay? It seems to me every op ed piece is signed. here is a copy of the NY Times letters to the editor policy:

*****

Letters to the Editor

Letters to the editor should only be sent to The Times, and not to other publications. We do not publish open letters or third-party letters.
Letters for publication should be no longer than 150 words, must refer to an article that has appeared within the last seven days, and must include the writer's address and phone numbers. No attachments, please.
We regret we cannot return or acknowledge unpublished letters. Writers of those letters selected for publication will be notified within a week. Letters may be shortened for space requirements.
Send a letter to the editor by e-mailing letters@nytimes.com or faxing (212)556-3622.
You may also mail your letter to:
Letters to the Editor
The New York Times
620 Eighth Avenue
New York, NY 10018
To submit a letter to the City, Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey or Connecticut weekly sections, please e-mail region@nytimes.com..
About Letters
Thomas Feyer, the letters editor, gives tips for getting your letter published. Click here for full article.
Additional Information?
• Please call (212) 556-1831 for recorded instructions.
• See: Op-Ed Submissions.
• To write the editorial page editor, e-mail editorial@nytimes.com.
• Other article submissions: Send your article to the editor of the department relevant to your piece (e.g. "News Editor," "Sports Editor") via regular mail to the address above.


***END QUOTE****

It seems to me all the letters to the editor need the writers address and phone numbers; and assume they must include the name as well.

WOuld you kindly explain to me your belief that the NY TImes has unsigned op ed pieces?

[andymays]

In my opinion by not disclosing his name he's protecting the integrity of the Forum.

From my bad experience on another Forum, when the Moderator has personal relationships with the Posters it can and will become a cancer on the Forum.

I am guessing Pace feels the same way (allegedly)!

[keilan]

I am having a bit of trouble understanding your point. Does not something similar happen on a daily basis in same sex races, with faster animals?

If a filly, entered against other fillies who is game as hell but up in class stretching out and outclassed, the same thing occurs - she is pushing herself beyond her limits trying to catch the speed of faster horses. It is irrelevant the sex of the animal; she does not know she is racing a horse with testicles or not, just that he/she is faster and she has to go get em.

If you are just saying that stressing a filly in a fast race can lead to a higher risk of breakdowns, then I would agree and RA or any filly against faster horses would have this occur. But I just think this happens about every day in our sport, it is not solely a part of classic races or non same sex ones.



This is my last post on this thread, I don't have the time nor the patience to write about something that you only half read or comprehend.

The best 3yo fillies don't race on a daily bases. We're not talking claimers with big hearts. We're not talking about European Racing or Turf Racing, we're not talking about you're overbearing Mothers or Sisters.

What were are talking about is a 3yo filly being asked to do something she has never do before. The very best fillies have some distinctions that make them vulnerable to this race environment. It is their will to race and win, they can and will stress their bodies past their structural limits.

God created animals of all different shape and sizes etc. For almost all species the males are bigger, stronger and faster but according to PA's brain trust the exception are Thoroughbred Horses. You're a smart guy maybe you can explain why that's so.

[keilan]

Wow, who pissed in your corn flakes? All I was saying was that they are created at least equal...and what was your point in inferring that they aren't? Where is your proof? Nice try. :rolleyes:


Equal --- equal what?

Because you cleaned someones stall hardly qualifies you as an authority other than maybe on horseshit. :)

[keilan]

I just got off the phone with NOW.

They think you are nuts.


Hey turfnsport who dialed the number for you? hey just askin

[DeanT]

This is my last post on this thread, I don't have the time nor the patience to write about something that you only half read or comprehend.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Just a tip for the future. If you insult someone in the first line of a response, whom was asking you an honest question for discussion, do not expect them to even "half read" your posts.

[keilan]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Just a tip for the future. If you insult someone in the first line of a response, whom was asking you an honest question for discussion, do not expect them to even "half read" your posts.


Then don't insult me by asking questions about something I haven't spoken to.

[turfnsport]

Hey turfnsport who dialed the number for you? hey just askin

Actually, got 'em on speed dial buddy! :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

I am on Keilan's side of the fence on this issue. There is too much downside racing a filly against the boys.

In natural world male and female horses do not rrun against each other with a person on their back.

[DeanT]

In natural world male and female horses do not rrun against each other with a person on their back.

In the natural world, no horses run against each other with people on their back :)

Seriously, SMTW, why do you have your opine? I had a very good trainer tell me that "the filly don't know a horse has balls" about this issue.

Honest question: What is the difference between a filly racing a filly whom is faster, instead of a filly running against a colt who is faster? How can the filly know the difference?

[ezrabrooks]

In the natural world, no horses run against each other with people on their back :)

Seriously, SMTW, why do you have your opine? I had a very good trainer tell me that "the filly don't know a horse has balls" about this issue.

Honest question: What is the difference between a filly racing a filly whom is faster, instead of a filly running against a colt who is faster? How can the filly know the difference?

If this trainer was speaking of any filly, I think he is full of it.

Ez

[DeanT]

If this trainer was speaking of any filly, I think he is full of it.

Ez
How come?

Does a 100 beyer filly racing an 80 beyer colt get scared and breaks her leg or something?

he was not speaking that colts are slower than fillies, he was saying a faster filly will beat a slower colt. Sex has nothing to do with it, ability does.

[Saratoga_Mike]

How come?

Does a 100 beyer filly racing an 80 beyer colt get scared and breaks her leg or something?

he was not speaking that colts are slower than fillies, he was saying a faster filly will beat a slower colt. Sex has nothing to do with it, ability does.

Your logic is irrefutable. Therefore, your questions will not be answered.

[keilan]

How come?

Does a 100 beyer filly racing an 80 beyer colt get scared and breaks her leg or something?

he was not speaking that colts are slower than fillies, he was saying a faster filly will beat a slower colt. Sex has nothing to do with it, ability does.


Seriously Dean.. you really don't understand the premise of the discussion. We're not talking about some jughead that you may have owned or about some filly racing the boyz at Woodbine. This discussion is about the very best 3yo old fillies.

That's the distinction so any argument made should be made in that vein.

I doubt every much that the trainer out of Ontario ever had a world class 3yo in his barn. So that comment is of little relevance here. It doesn't apply!!!

[keilan]

Now watch one of the brain surgeons come back with -- Why doesn't it apply? :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Seriously Dean.. you really don't understand the premise of the discussion. We're not talking about some jughead that you may have owned or about some filly racing the boyz at Woodbine. This discussion is about the very best 3yo old fillies.

That's the distinction so any argument made should be made in that vein.

I doubt every much that the trainer out of Ontario ever had a world class 3yo in his barn. So that comment is of little relevance here. It doesn't apply!!!

By your logic (we're talking about the upper echelon of racing here), aren't all the fillies that race against RA endangered each time they race? She seems to tower over the vast majority of them.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Now watch one of the brain surgeons come back with -- Why doesn't it apply? :bang: :bang: :bang:

Why doesn't it apply Einstein?

[keilan]

By your logic (we're talking about the upper echelon of racing here), aren't all the fillies that race against RA endangered each time they race? She seems to tower over the vast majority of them.


If you think for one moment that the other fillies in the Oaks are the very best then I have a bridge I want you to take a look at. ;)

None of those horse will ever win a stakes race at 4 let alone be referred to as one of the very best 3yo in this era.

[keilan]

Why doesn't it apply Einstein?


What did I tell ya --- can't say I didn't warn ya.

Mike-- what do you do for a living?

[Saratoga_Mike]

If you think for one moment that the other fillies in the Oaks are the very best then I have a bridge I want you to take a look at. ;)

None of those horse will ever win a stakes race at 4 let alone be referred to as one of the very best 3yo in this era.

"If you think for one moment that the other fillies in the Oaks are the very best then I have a bridge I want you to take a look at."

You just made my point. Thanks. They're all overmatched.

[Saratoga_Mike]

What did I tell ya --- can't say I didn't warn ya.

Mike-- what do you do for a living?

Lighten up. You made the brain surgeon comment, so I joked with you with the Einstein comment. I've enjoyed our exchange. It wasn't anything personal.

[keilan]

Lighten up. You made the brain surgeon comment, so I joked with you with the Einstein comment. I've enjoyed our exchange. It wasn't anything personal.


It never is!!

Enjoy the race

[DeanT]

Your logic is irrefutable. Therefore, your questions will not be answered.
Thanks Mike. I got a good mark in modern logic in school and I was beginning to think that my prof gave me the mark because I was simply super-sexy :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Thanks Mike. I got a good mark in modern logic in school and I was beginning to think that my prof gave me the mark because I was simply super-sexy :)

No sir, it isn't your looks. You're a modern-day Cicero.

[DJofSD]

Thanks Mike. I got a good mark in modern logic in school and I was beginning to think that my prof gave me the mark because I was simply super-sexy :)
Cue music: I'm too sexy for my prof, too sexy for PA, ....

[Burls]

And thanks to unrelenting pressure from the PaceAdvantage website, Rachel Alexandra is now listed as *CONFIRMED* for the 2009 Preakness at the official Preakness website. :jump: http://www.preakness.com/contenderRachelAlexandra

[PaceAdvantage]

Perhaps you should revisit a movie called “Network” that was released in 1976. It’s all about TV ratings and the lengths to which some might go to achieve them. The bottom line of course is money and getting the biggest bang for the buck for the advertisers involved in special events like the Preakness. If an audience can be increased exponentially by promotional gimmickry what do you suppose that means to those who advertise?So then...you're going to have me believe that NBC, Pimlico, the owners of MTB and Zayat are all in this little PR scheme...I suppose NBC paid them all to put on this little show?

[PaceAdvantage]

You're pathetic :bang:You're just jealous. :p :kiss:

[PaceAdvantage]

When you take the best 3yo fillies and run them against the best 3yo colts and run them at distances they have NEVER run before, at pace times they have NEVER run before, with a jock on their back asking them for everything they have terrible things happen to these fragile animals.You're pathetic. :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll see if I can get Mike to feature this as the post of the year!!!After you called me pathetic? Fat chance mister. :mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

46 -- they're examples of this all the time, it's called "the program", and that's what I was eluding to in a early post. Vitamins / steroids and other meds allow them to reach speeds and race distances that they structurally can't sustain. Goes for them all. Males AND females.

What was your point again?

Eight Belles...Ruffian...Barbaro...Union City...Prairie Bayou...Charismatic...Go for Wand...Mr. Nickerson...George Washington...

[PaceAdvantage]

I really dont understand where you're getting your information. I have gone to the NY Times and did a search for "op ed policy" I come up with the first ten op ed pieces, ALL OF THEM ARE SIGNED.OP EDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM EDITORIALS.

HERE ARE TWO NY TIMES EDITORIALS....see any names on them? All from the same day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13wed3.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13wed2.html

and here is an OP ED...SIGNED...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13divoll.html?ref=opinion

[PaceAdvantage]

For almost all species the males are bigger, stronger and faster but according to PA's brain trust the exception are Thoroughbred Horses.What have you become, a glorified hit-and-run troll?

Nobody here EVER proclaimed that by and large, female T-breds are larger and stronger than male T-breds. Perhaps you ought to read more carefully.

There ARE exceptions however. Think Winning Colors.

Once fear overcomes the will to "run the best against the best," then you might as well turn out the lights on this game.

It's thinking like Keilan's that will be the death of this sport...

[ezrabrooks]

How come?

Does a 100 beyer filly racing an 80 beyer colt get scared and breaks her leg or something?

he was not speaking that colts are slower than fillies, he was saying a faster filly will beat a slower colt. Sex has nothing to do with it, ability does.

I wasn't talking about ability...any time you run a filly with colts you run the chance of the filly being intimidated by the group, and not running her best.

[DeanT]

I wasn't talking about ability...any time you run a filly with colts you run the chance of the filly being intimidated by the group, and not running her best.
EZ,

I understand. The filly is in against a deep, talented group of colts and will be taxed.

However, I will try one last shot.......

What is the difference between what you say above and a rise up in class with that filly against a better group of fillies? By definition (because horses do not know which sex they are racing against) then each time a horse moves up in class, against a deep talented field, he/she is intimidated because she has to run faster and harder.

Standardizing the argument - if RA is racing against a group of 5 claiming colts, is she still intimidated and at the risk of breakdown? If not, then this argument has everything to do with class, speed and ability, and nothing to do with the sex she is racing against.

[rrbauer]

Archive this baby in the "Good threads, gone bad" directory.

[DanG]

PA’s original article is right on in terms of a disingenuous attempt to exclude the filly. In a strict business sense; sure these games are played every day in racing offices in a hundred different ways. However; one would like to think our only series of races that gain national attention would transcend self interest, but as Mike wrote…that would be asking too much.

The core of the fillies vs. colt’s debate comes from the breeding grounds of Kentucky. As Rachel’s last owner said after the Oaks; “fillies should race fillies, and colts should race colts.” This mentality is primarily born of stud fees. There are three things the bluegrass state dreads in a Derby winner…

• A Filly
• A Gelding
• And / or not bred in Kentucky

As far as fillies racing boys and to the points of why it’s more common in Europe. Comparing American dirt classics with turf racing is like comparing roller derby with figure skating.

Complete different dynamics to the race and a very different horse is required in each. The classic American dirt horse has a rear like a Mack truck, while the classic turf horse is narrower behind and doesn’t drive through the soil, but rather springs from it.

I don’t know what planet some of these speed ratings are coming from concerning Rachel. She drowns this field on raw ability and all things being equal (and of course they never are) she is the “fastest” 3yo in the nation imo. Does this mean she wins vs. a big field of colts with a target on her back? Of course not; and at her projected odds to find out she screams one of the most serious major race under-lays in some time.

BTW: Running her back in 2 weeks off that effort is completely nuts imo. :bang: Work up to the Acorn / rip that field a new one / have the NY press say you "beat nothing" and then map out a plan to win the Travers.

[DeanT]

Of course not; and at her projected odds to find out she screams one of the most serious major race under-lays in some time.


I was not going to bet the Preakness but with RA in there it sure does open it up eh? I have not done fair odds of course, but with everyone picking her to win I think I would have her well above board odds. I am looking forward to betting this race and I did not think I would a week ago.

[DanG]

I was not going to bet the Preakness but with RA in there it sure does open it up eh? I have not done fair odds of course, but with everyone picking her to win I think I would have her well above board odds. I am looking forward to betting this race and I did not think I would a week ago.
I’ve heard all types of projections on her odds Dean. Off shore I’ve seen even money.

I just hope they get good weather and a safe race. We starve for national attention…well we’ve got it (briefly) in spades. If Mother Nature cooperates in the slightest; Pimlico will ROCK Saturday.

[Enigma]

Motive.
Publicity....maybe.
Self interest....maybe.
In the end this is nothing more than much ado about nothing.
The true interrogation will come after the race is run.

[ezrabrooks]

EZ,

I understand. The filly is in against a deep, talented group of colts and will be taxed.

However, I will try one last shot.......

What is the difference between what you say above and a rise up in class with that filly against a better group of fillies? By definition (because horses do not know which sex they are racing against) then each time a horse moves up in class, against a deep talented field, he/she is intimidated because she has to run faster and harder.

Standardizing the argument - if RA is racing against a group of 5 claiming colts, is she still intimidated and at the risk of breakdown? If not, then this argument has everything to do with class, speed and ability, and nothing to do with the sex she is racing against.

No...I was not referring to break downs. I think any time you place a 3yo filly in the gate with 13 males, especially for the first time, there is a chance that, regardless of her ability, she might not be on her game, and be intimidated by the smell and feel of all of the male hormones. That was my point.

Ez

[Saratoga_Mike]

OP EDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM EDITORIALS.

HERE ARE TWO NY TIMES EDITORIALS....see any names on them? All from the same day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13wed3.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13wed2.html

and here is an OP ED...SIGNED...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13divoll.html?ref=opinion

JP MD why do you care whether his editorial is signed or not anyway (didn't see the reason stated anywhere-sorry if I missed it)? As for the NY Times, Andrew Rosenthal is the Editorial Page Editor (he oversees the board that writes the editorials at the Times). I think it's fair to say he takes ownership of any editorial that appears in the Times.

[Nitro]

So then...you're going to have me believe that NBC, Pimlico, the owners of MTB and Zayat are all in this little PR scheme...I suppose NBC paid them all to put on this little show?No, I’m not trying to make you believe anything! You’re already up to your elbows protesting things that are contrary to your beliefs in things that have been going in this game for decades. I’m simply presenting a plausible explanation for the intent of those involved using the media to expose the “controversial” events that began on Sun May 10th (1 week before the Preakness).

Whether you want to believe it or not, there are some very clever and extremely creative marketing people out there who know exactly how to manipulate people’s minds in order to create an atmosphere of sensationalism through the media. Obviously their ultimate goals are concerned with publicity and “ratings”. Whether an individual hatched this PR episode or all of the primary parties were involved is immaterial. The bottom line is _ that it worked!

Did anyone else happen to notice that the NBC commercials involving Rachael Alexandra’s appearance in the Preakness preceded her actual confirmation for running in this race?


I'll see if I can get Mike to feature this as the post of the year!!!
After you called me pathetic? Fat chance misterThanks for your consideration of my previous post. I certainly don’t have ambitions for garnering any notoriety here. My points of view may or may not be as gloriously foreboding as some, but I’m notoriously adamant about expressing my thoughts based on life’s experiences, particularly when it involves horseracing.


I don’t know what planet some of these speed ratings are coming from concerning Rachel. She drowns this field on raw ability and all things being equal (and of course they never are) she is the “fastest” 3yo in the nation imo. Does this mean she wins vs. a big field of colts with a target on her back? Of course not; and at her projected odds to find out she screams one of the most serious major race under-lays in some time. Good points Dan!
And perhaps right now the “fastest 3yo” filly, yes, but even it “drowns” this Preakness field (which I doubt) there are few obvious missing entries that preclude us from drawing any overshadowing conclusions at this point. IMO

Good luck with your Preakness selections!

[WinterTriangle]

Everyone has their opinion about this.

For some historical perspective, reading what Baffert said in 1999 when he decided not to run Silverbulletbay in the Preakness, when she drew post 14, and why, was very illuminating.

For the record, I'm not against her running here due to being a filly. I am against it because I think the timing is bad, new barn, new connections, and I wanted the original Derby jockey to ride the Derby winner, and hope for a Triple Crown this year. I think she would have been better in the Belmont, and I think her chances would have been better there, too.

[DanG]

And perhaps right now the “fastest 3yo” filly, yes, but even it “drowns” this Preakness field (which I doubt) there are few obvious missing entries that preclude us from drawing any overshadowing conclusions at this point. IMO

Fair point; but I choose to disagree in this regard.

I don’t need every single 3yo to line up and race each other to make value judgments on their relative ability. Of course; everything changes on race day when the information is in front of us; and the odds are known etc.

If Rachel lined up with Quality Road and I Want Revenge…I would have an opinion on their abilities as of today. Doesn’t make it correct of course, but I always project the raw ability first and then on race day all of the other 9 million variables come into play.

If you took a hypothetical race where each of the three above where in peak condition and you eliminating all bumping / race related chaos / two week rest etc…Rachel has the most raw ability and I believe Quality Road is the best 3yo colt in the nation.

Doesn’t mean a darn thing other then a talking point and like so many of us…you can discuss major races until you drop dead, but you don’t always bet that way when its live fire. The Preakness in all likely hood will present Big Drama with a FAR more inviting risk / reward then the filly.

[ryesteve]

For some historical perspective, reading what Baffert said in 1999 when he decided not to run Silverbulletbay in the Preakness, when she drew post 14, and why, was very illuminating.Silverbulletday wasn't the 8/5 morning line favorite. I'm not saying the outside post helps, but at this point, I don't see how they can back out. Also, if you look at the recent winners from the outside posts, you can see a handful of good horses were able to overcome it; can anyone remember when the last time a favored horse was beaten from an outside post?

[Cratos]

PA’s original article is right on in terms of a disingenuous attempt to exclude the filly. In a strict business sense; sure these games are played every day in racing offices in a hundred different ways. However; one would like to think our only series of races that gain national attention would transcend self interest, but as Mike wrote…that would be asking too much.

The core of the fillies vs. colt’s debate comes from the breeding grounds of Kentucky. As Rachel’s last owner said after the Oaks; “fillies should race fillies, and colts should race colts.” This mentality is primarily born of stud fees. There are three things the bluegrass state dreads in a Derby winner…

• A Filly
• A Gelding
• And / or not bred in Kentucky

As far as fillies racing boys and to the points of why it’s more common in Europe. Comparing American dirt classics with turf racing is like comparing roller derby with figure skating.

Complete different dynamics to the race and a very different horse is required in each. The classic American dirt horse has a rear like a Mack truck, while the classic turf horse is narrower behind and doesn’t drive through the soil, but rather springs from it.

I don’t know what planet some of these speed ratings are coming from concerning Rachel. She drowns this field on raw ability and all things being equal (and of course they never are) she is the “fastest” 3yo in the nation imo. Does this mean she wins vs. a big field of colts with a target on her back? Of course not; and at her projected odds to find out she screams one of the most serious major race under-lays in some time.

BTW: Running her back in 2 weeks off that effort is completely nuts imo. :bang: Work up to the Acorn / rip that field a new one / have the NY press say you "beat nothing" and then map out a plan to win the Travers.
Dan, you have made some good points in your retorts concerning fillies/mares running against male horses.

However the statement “This mentality is primarily born of stud fees. There are three things the bluegrass state dreads in a Derby winner…’” needs a better explanation than the one you gave.

Funny Cide a gelding and the 2003 Derby brought notice to his sire Distorted Humor and gave a boost to the NY State breeding program.

It is not the winner of the Derby that the breeders will just look at, but the sire of the winner typically becomes a hot commodity. Alydar out of Raise a Native (one of the hottest sires ever and who never won at a distance) was highly regarded to be a good sire, but when he produced Alysheba a Derby winner, his Derby fees became stratospheric as did Seattle Slew fees when he became a producer of a Derby winner.

This is not to say that neither horse was lacking in the barn nor either wouldn’t have been a good sire, but producing Derby winners changed the equation.

It will be interesting to watch Smarty Jones the 2004 Derby winner who was given a lot of hoopla during his run in the TC races and his initial stud’s fees were set high, but I think the jury is still out and if he don’t produce soon his fees will plummet .

On the other hand Rachel Alexandra will probably do wonders for Medaglia d’Oro fees because he was a tremendous talent on the racetrack and he has produced a tremendous racehorse in Rachel Alexandra early in his stud career. If that type of production continues he might be another Seattle Slew in shedrow.

[DanG]

Dan, you have made some good points in your retorts concerning fillies/mares running against male horses.

However the statement “This mentality is primarily born of stud fees. There are three things the bluegrass state dreads in a Derby winner…’” needs a better explanation than the one you gave.

Funny Cide a gelding and the 2003 Derby brought notice to his sire Distorted Humor and gave a boost to the NY State breeding program.


On the other hand Rachel Alexandra will probably do wonders for Medaglia d’Oro fees because he was a tremendous talent on the racetrack and he has produced a tremendous racehorse in Rachel Alexandra early in his stud career. If that type of production continues he might be another Seattle Slew in shedrow.
All good points as usual Cratos; in particular with Medaglia d’Oro at stud who is off to a flying start.

I was trying to frame it in terms of Kentucky’s perspective. In the bluegrass a NY bred anything; much less a gelding for example is not what the historic KY breeder’s desire.

This is not unique to them of course. Let a shipper win a marquee NY race over the local connections and the same feelings surface. As was said in this thread that has gone so many places. In almost every facet of our sport; provincial self interest rules over any national perspective and we all participate in that to one degree or another.

[46zilzal]

Let ANYONE run against ANYONE and the results will tell the tale. Remember good old Rick's Natural Star? Nutty as it was, I'll bet there were more people tuned in that day than without him there.

I have seen many a good filly destroy the boys on TURF, (the REMARKABLE Miesque, Pebbles 85 BC Turf at Aqueduct, Royal Heroine 84 BC Mile at Hollywood) and sprinting they can hold their own as many a BC sprint race has shown, BUT routes on the dirt? Only Rags to Riches, Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret ring a bell there outside of the lucky (alone on the lead) Winning Colors.

P.R. if it is good for the game, if it makes people talk and follow the sport, then it is helpful. I just don't want to see another Eight Belles or Ruffian as the game does not need a bit of that.

[PaceAdvantage]

I just don't want to see another Eight Belles or Ruffian as the game does not need a bit of that.Then shut the sport down. Now.

I don't quite understand how Eight Belles or Ruffian is any more tragic than Barbaro, Union City, Prairie Bayou, George Washington, or any of the other countless high-profile breakdowns over the years.

At least with Ruffian you can point to the stress of the match race itself, which is indeed an entirely different animal from a regular race full of horses.

But Ruffian aside, why would it be more tragic if God-forbid something happened to RA while running against boys, as opposed to something happening to her while running against girls?

From all "expert" accounts, Rachel Alexandra is NOT your typical female runner. Many "experts" will tell you that just by looking at her, you would think she WAS a male runner.

And we know that she is definitely JUST AS FAST as males of her generation.

So what really is the problem here? She's big, she's strong, and she's fast.

She could hurt herself just as easily running in the Acorn as she could in the Preakness. That's the bottom line. Some will disagree with their convoluted theories and whatnot, but the simple fact of the matter is that a horse can hurt itself any time, any place.

She could be pushed just as hard in a race against females as she may be pushed in the Preakness.

Extending the logic of some on here (Keilan for one), should we prevent RA from ever meeting up with Zenyatta? After all, look what happened to Go for Wand when she faced off against Bayakoa.

[slewis]

PA makes a good point above....

I know this is going to sound a bit cold... but what the hell are these animals on this planet for??

They are bred to run.. and that's it.... their purpose in the scheme of things...

We, as humans, are the only species capable of reason. No one with a conscience wants to take risk beyond the scope of what these animals can handle..
This is easily within that scope... easily... not even close.
So was Eight Belles last year.....
I believe the condition of the track had more to do with her breakdown then racing vs boys....
Of course it will be a much more difficult task than RA is used to... and she'll be pushed VERY hard... but that's what she's here for... her destiny.
Whether you believe in GOD or not...... it's her destiny....
Sometimes glorious... sometimes tragic...

[Relwob Owner]

PA makes a good point above....

I know this is going to sound a bit cold... but what the hell are these animals on this planet for??

They are bred to run.. and that's it.... their purpose in the scheme of things...

We, as humans, are the only species capable of reason. No one with a conscience wants to take risk beyond the scope of what these animals can handle..
This is easily within that scope... easily... not even close.
So was Eight Belles last year.....
I believe the condition of the track had more to do with her breakdown then racing vs boys....
Of course it will be a much more difficult task than RA is used to... and she'll be pushed VERY hard... but that's what she's here for... her destiny.
Whether you believe in GOD or not...... it's her destiny....
Sometimes glorious... sometimes tragic...



You bring up a hard, but honest truth IMHO....from time to time, I do find myself questioning my involvement and some things about horse racing, especially after a breakdown....then, I remember that these horses are bred to run and that they probably wouldnt be here without horse racing. That being said, we need to do everything we can to protect and take care of them, as they provide so much enjoyment for all of us.

[DanG]

As far as running her etc… (Like all responses that aren’t 2+2; this is all pure opinion here of course.)

If I mention the fact that Thoro-Graph rated her the fastest filly ever since they have made numbers…BEFORE the Oaks / and the Oaks came up in another stratosphere (Neg -4). TG’s research has shown correlations between young horses “reacting” to negative numbers.

Most will say its all nonsense ; or whatever there perception is but there is a body of research from some pretty serious data providers that claim she should not be racing…period 14 days later; much less the Gr-1 Preakness.

Extremely fast thoroughbreds are a completely different sub-group from the population as a whole. The faster / more competitive an animal is; the more they push the needle in red line of their tachometer. The common types often learn to “protect” themselves and know when to shut it down. The top end of the gene pool need more human intervention to protect them…from their extraordinary abilities.

If that is all tea-leaves from your perspective, at the very least; doesn’t the entire thing seem a little rushed? I have a personal bias (and that’s all each of us are representing) against horses who didn’t map out a major race. It seems to me for the last few decades the fast / young animals who have semi-planned schedules / vs. almost knee jerk impulse seem to last a bit longer and retire sounder….in general.

Any or all of the above could be total BS; or not. The one thing we might agree on is we have attracted a pretty well financed group of fringe nuts who would give their last Tofu burger to shut us down. I’m not saying we should react to extremists; but when a Dick Enberg says he can’t broadcast another horse race because of the impact Go For Wand had on him; he is not alone. It then shifts the responsibility on us to put our exceptional runners in the best possible spots and let the racing Gods decide their fate.

IMHO: This is not the “best possible spot” for this brilliant filly’s future regardless of the outcome, but if she had skipped the Oaks I would say let her rip and good luck to all those who dare race against her.

[DeanT]

Extremely interesting and insightful Dan. Nice way to start the morning read.

[DanG]

Thanks Dean;

One thing we can all agree on…we will all watch / bet this one with interest and this board will rock afterward regardless of the result.

[miesque]

As far as running her etc… (Like all responses that aren’t 2+2; this is all pure opinion here of course.)

If I mention the fact that Thoro-Graph rated her the fastest filly ever since they have made numbers…BEFORE the Oaks / and the Oaks came up in another stratosphere (Neg -4). TG’s research has shown correlations between young horses “reacting” to negative numbers.

Most will say its all nonsense ; or whatever there perception is but there is a body of research from some pretty serious data providers that claim she should not be racing…period 14 days later; much less the Gr-1 Preakness.

Extremely fast thoroughbreds are a completely different sub-group from the population as a whole. The faster / more competitive an animal is; the more they push the needle in red line of their tachometer. The common types often learn to “protect” themselves and know when to shut it down. The top end of the gene pool need more human intervention to protect them…from their extraordinary abilities.

If that is all tea-leaves from your perspective, at the very least; doesn’t the entire thing seem a little rushed? I have a personal bias (and that’s all each of us are representing) against horses who didn’t map out a major race. It seems to me for the last few decades the fast / young animals who have semi-planned schedules / vs. almost knee jerk impulse seem to last a bit longer and retire sounder….in general.

Any or all of the above could be total BS; or not. The one thing we might agree on is we have attracted a pretty well financed group of fringe nuts who would give their last Tofu burger to shut us down. I’m not saying we should react to extremists; but when a Dick Enberg says he can’t broadcast another horse race because of the impact Go For Wand had on him; he is not alone. It then shifts the responsibility on us to put our exceptional runners in the best possible spots and let the racing Gods decide their fate.

IMHO: This is not the “best possible spot” for this brilliant filly’s future regardless of the outcome, but if she had skipped the Oaks I would say let her rip and good luck to all those who dare race against her.

Dan - That was superbly written and your comments, especially the part about about it feeling a bit rushed, nicely encapsulates why I been feeling a bit uneasy about this whereas normally I would be very enthusiastic about a filly like Rachel Alexandra running in a race such as the Preakness.

[Cratos]

Something appears to be very wrong with the nay Sayers reasoning about Rachel Alexandra racing in the Preakness against the “boys.”

Historically the racing conditions in thoroughbred racing are based on gender and age. Female horses get a weight allowance from male horses at any age and 3yo horses get a weight allowance from older horses. In thoroughbred racing 2yos do not race out of their age group although this sometimes happens in harness racing.

However there tends to be a thought by a vocal minority in racing that the “girls” can’t beat the “boys” and the best or most repeated examples of that weak assertion is the breakdowns of Ruffian, Go For Wand, and Eight Belles.

I believe that the injury Ruffian suffered on July 6, 1975 in her match race against Foolish Pleasure didn’t have anything to do with her racing against Foolish Pleasure as “girl” vs “boy”. It was a random event that happened in a high profile race, but had it happened in the race before the match race we would not be having that race as a spurious reference today.

And can anyone say that the forces exerted by Winning Colors and Personal Ensign in their thrilling duel in the 1988 BC Distaff at Churchill Downs was any less than the ones exerted by Ruffian? No, you cannot and it will be simply hyperbole if you try.

Furthermore I didn’t hear any outcry when Vindication, War Pass, and Old Fashioned had to be retired (not death) due to racing injuries. Where were the Dick Enbergs of the world when Left Bank and Swale suddenly fell to their deaths?

Also two of the best racehorses to ever run in North America fell to injury and recovered to have stellar racing and breeding careers. They were Dr. Fager and Buckpasser; and those of you who were on the NYRA circuit during the seventies should remember the problems that the great Forego had and still raced to be a hall of famer.

Another point should be recognized and that is many years ago (and maybe today) the small ovals consistently raced male and female horses together particularly at the claiming level because typically there wasn’t enough horses on the grounds to always fill the race by gender.

The nay Sayers need to get pass their ignorance and biases and let Rachel Alexandra run. I don’t believe that she will win, but I do believe that her connections deserves the right run her in any race that they feel is right for their horse because that is what horseracing is about, making choices

[keilan]

.

Extremely fast thoroughbreds are a completely different sub-group from the population as a whole. The faster / more competitive an animal is; the more they push the needle in red line of their tachometer. The common types often learn to “protect” themselves and know when to shut it down. The top end of the gene pool need more human intervention to protect them…from their extraordinary abilities.





Seems like a light might a gone on for you!!!

See how the best 3yo are maybe a little different than all 3yo's

[ezgoerbaby79]

This is my last post on this thread, I don't have the time nor the patience to write about something that you only half read or comprehend.

The best 3yo fillies don't race on a daily bases. We're not talking claimers with big hearts. We're not talking about European Racing or Turf Racing, we're not talking about you're overbearing Mothers or Sisters.

What were are talking about is a 3yo filly being asked to do something she has never do before. The very best fillies have some distinctions that make them vulnerable to this race environment. It is their will to race and win, they can and will stress their bodies past their structural limits.

God created animals of all different shape and sizes etc. For almost all species the males are bigger, stronger and faster but according to PA's brain trust the exception are Thoroughbred Horses. You're a smart guy maybe you can explain why that's so.


Thought this was your last post on the subject. Unfortunate. No reason to take such a condescending attitude with everyone because undoubtedly you don't know everything. Highly opinionated does not make you an expert. All you really have is your opinion which is no more right or wrong than the rest of us. I bet you can't wait for her to break down so you can come back and say "I told you so..."

[tzipi]

"Generally tell it like it is" Wow,so basically translated to,"I generally blow hot air out my mouth thinking people actually think my words are worth listening to"
Same guy who thinks these horses should just run for his bad money because they are just "race horses" and their not freaking "pets",and who cares if they break down basically.

[Show Me the Wire]

In the natural world, no horses run against each other with people on their back :)

Seriously, SMTW, why do you have your opine? I had a very good trainer tell me that "the filly don't know a horse has balls" about this issue.

Honest question: What is the difference between a filly racing a filly whom is faster, instead of a filly running against a colt who is faster? How can the filly know the difference?


I missed this post. I did not try to avoid answering. If it is not too late here is my answer. The act of racing usually takes a a larger toll on the females. It is harder to keep flesh on the females.

Usually female horse will not extend themselves to their detriment, but some exceptional (because they are the exception to the rule) females will extend themselves to their detriment to stay in front of the pack.

If the male is faster and stronger (more muscle mass) the female is at a disadvantge, because as the trainer said, she doesn't understand the male has more muscle mass than her. The testerone gives the male more muscle mass, meaning more power and stamina. The alpha female will sacrifice her self trying to out run a more powerfull animal, causing unecessary stress to limbs, joints, etc.


In RA's specific case the males, including the older ones. RA competed against were not quicker or faster than her and she was able to run most of the race well within herself.

She is an exceptional filly, but I would not like to see her compete against the likes of a Gayego.