MTB Owner wants no part of Rachael

[Mineshaft]

MTB owner called Zayat begging him to enter horses in the Preakness to keep out Rachael. It was on HRTV..

And on top of that Asmussen trains for Zayat so would Zayat enter horses to keep Rachael out who is trained by one one of Zayats trainers.





Can you throw this in the General Discussion thread?

[kenwoodallpromos]

If true that is what I call conspiricy to fix a race. And it weould be pretty stupid if Ass. trains for Z.

[Mineshaft]

If true that is what I call conspiricy to fix a race. And it weould be pretty stupid if Ass. trains for Z.





Asmussen doesnt need Zayat i would tell him to come pick his horses up.

[Mineshaft]

One thing Jess Jackson did wrong was telling everyone she was pointing to the Preakness. I would of kept my mouth shut and entered her with Robbie or Shaun. If you would of told Calvins agent then it would of been too hard to pull it off.

[Imriledup]

If you own a horse this good, its a good idea to tell everyone where you are going....you want people to duck you.

[KingChas]

Zayat said she (RA) shouldn't run because she didn't face the rigors the 3yr old colts did to get to the TC races....What about Rags to Riches?

MaryLou calls begging because she wants to up the ante on Birdstone as a sire...
Economy must be bad?

MTB owner calls and says ,I lost my jock and the horse gets no respect...
Ducking a fillie will get him more respect?

:lol: :lol:

[Mineshaft]

Should be an interesting 2-3 days till they enter for the Preakness.

[bobphilo]

If true that is what I call conspiricy to fix a race. And it weould be pretty stupid if Ass. trains for Z.

Zayat (POTN) and Allen (MTB) are both conspiring to keep the filly out of the Preakness with the excuse that they're protecting the filly from the big bad boys.

http://tinyurl.com/qvbg75 (http://tinyurl.com/qvbg75)

Bob

[KingChas]

“People are concerned that it would not be for the good of the sport,” Zayat said. “Nobody wants a situation like we had last year with Eight Belles.”


Be real! :liar:

[Mineshaft]

I wonder what Asmussen will do with Zayat if Zayat enters a horse that doesnt belong and scratches. Gotta believe he will be pissed off.

[Mineshaft]

“People are concerned that it would not be for the good of the sport,” Zayat said. “Nobody wants a situation like we had last year with Eight Belles.”


Be real! :liar:






Exactly hes a clown....

[Relwob Owner]

Exactly hes a clown....


Move over IEAH....looks like this forum has a new owner to attack.....and man, does it seem like he deserves it

[Imriledup]

Zayat (POTN) and Allen (MTB) are both conspiring to keep the filly out of the Preakness with the excuse that they're protecting the filly from the big bad boys.

http://tinyurl.com/qvbg75 (http://tinyurl.com/qvbg75)

Bob

haha, they're actually protecting them from HER!:jump:

[toussaud]

Move over IEAH....looks like this forum has a new owner to attack.....and man, does it seem like he deserves it
the thing about IEAH is they just look slimy. people didn't like them becuase of envy. you get to go and watch races and own horses with other people's money. Mike is a little of an attention monger but he's not that bad of a guy I don't think.

Zayat is just down right insane and unsportsman.

[Relwob Owner]

the thing about IEAH is they just look slimy. people didn't like them becuase of envy. you get to go and watch races and own horses with other people's money. Mike is a little of an attention monger but he's not that bad of a guy I don't think.

Zayat is just down right insane and unsportsman.

yep

[MONEY]

If I had a colt running in the Preakness or any major stakes race, I would try to block a filly like Rachel Alexandra from entering. Not because I wouldn't want to compete against her, but because I don't want to compete against her and give her 5 pounds.


money

[bobphilo]

“People are concerned that it would not be for the good of the sport,” Zayat said. “Nobody wants a situation like we had last year with Eight Belles.”


Be real! :liar:

On the other hand Zayat is also saying it's a "business decision" to knock out his main competition. The same filly who allegedly needs protection from the colts. Pure hypocrisy.

[Relwob Owner]

On the other hand Zayat is also saying it's a "business decision" to knock out his main competition. The same filly who allegedly needs protection from the colts. Pure hypocrisy.



Great point....if he wants to knock out his competition, I can live with that but dont really agree with it.....the whole "protecting" thing is just absurd and a total copout

[bobphilo]

haha, they're actually protecting them from HER!:jump:

So true. The sad thing is it looks like the rules will let these creeps (Zayat and Allen) get away with packing the field and keeping RA out. Lets hope Pimlico, as well as Jackson, has good lawyers as I'm sure they'll want to keep her in.

Bob

[cj's dad]

If I had a colt running in the Preakness or any major stakes race, I would try to block a filly like Rachel Alexandra from entering. Not because I wouldn't want to compete against her, but because I don't want to compete against her and give her 5 pounds.


money

You have to be kidding right ??

[Sunday.Silence]

People need to start looking into this owner Allen, i think there is ALOT more dirt on this lowlife then people realize

[Cratos]

MTB owner called Zayat begging him to enter horses in the Preakness to keep out Rachael. It was on HRTV..

And on top of that Asmussen trains for Zayat so would Zayat enter horses to keep Rachael out who is trained by one one of Zayats trainers.





Can you throw this in the General Discussion thread?

I am not buying that MTB connections are afraid of RA. However I am willing to believe that MTB connections might feel that they have a good combination with Borel and MTB and that combination would not be there if RA is entered because Borel would be aboard RA.

Therefore the MTB strategy is a sensible move to maximize their chance to win the Preakness.

[cj's dad]

- Mary Lou Whitney will NOT enter her horse IF that would keep RA out of the Preakness Stakes

[matthewsiv]

- Mary Lou Whitney will NOT enter her horse IF that would keep RA out of the Preakness
Stakes

Well done Mary Lou Whitney.
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::T hmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Mineshaft]

The real question is why is Lukas running Flying Private in the Preakness? Hes the one taking a spot from Rachal.

[toussaud]

The real question is why is Lukas running Flying Private in the Preakness? Hes the one taking a spot from Rachal.
becuase lukas has manifest destiny to all triple crown races.

[Mineshaft]

becuase lukas has manifest destiny to all triple crown races.





If im Assmussen i will stuff the entry box next year if Lukas and Zayat or on the fence in any Triple Crown race or Breeders Cup races.

[cj]

If im Assmussen i will stuff the entry box next year if Lukas and Zayat or on the fence in any Triple Crown race or Breeders Cup races.

They nominate their horses.

[toussaud]

They nominate their horses.this

like I said, this all comes back to the utter stupity of not nominiating your horse when it's so damn c heap to do so. all this could have been avoided. even if you have no intentoin of running her against boys, you know you might sell her and that person might not think like you do

[Mineshaft]

They nominate their horses.





I know they nominate but when its time to enter you enter a horse you really dont want to run to keep the others out

[cj]

I know they nominate but when its time to enter you enter a horse you really dont want to run to keep the others out

My point was stuffing the entry box only helps if the horses you enter are preferred according to the rules in place. Obviously, the Preakness/Belmont will have new rules in place next year I would think.

[Imriledup]

Stuff the entry box and scratch. This will be another year without a triple crown winner virginia if the filly gets to race in Baltimore.

[cato]

Trust me there will not be a triple crown winner this year no matter who enters the Preakness and belmont...

[dutchboy]

Since the worst favorites are the ones that win their last race by more than 6 lengths I hope she gets in and is the huge favorite.

[Mineshaft]

My point was stuffing the entry box only helps if the horses you enter are preferred according to the rules in place. Obviously, the Preakness/Belmont will have new rules in place next year I would think.





Thats what im talking about cj. Stuff the entry box with preferred horses and scratch them. Say you have a horse thats 18th on the list but have no desire to run him in the Derby. There is Zayat sitting at 21 or 22. Enetr the horse and scratch him so Zayat doesnt get in.

[Imriledup]

Pimlico won't be too happy if you stuff the entry box with runners who have no intention of racing and you keep a mega box office attraction on the bench.

[bishlap]

Since the worst favorites are the ones that win their last race by more than 6 lengths I hope she gets in and is the huge favorite.
couldn't agree more...RA due to bounce. Was looking 4ward to root/bet against her until all this Zayat nonsense. :confused:

[toussaud]

bounce? there is a trend from the martha washington to the oaks to the fantasy to the oaks... her numbers are going one way. up. in fact, something else should startle the crap out of everyone in the race. the farther she goes, the better she gets.

[PaceAdvantage]

the thing about IEAH is they just look slimy. people didn't like them becuase of envy. you get to go and watch races and own horses with other people's money. Mike is a little of an attention monger but he's not that bad of a guy I don't think.Come on man...up your game just a little. They look slimy? What?!?!?!?

And how is IEAH all that different from every other racing partnership out there? A group of people pool their money and off we go...

I guess a hate post on West Point Thoroughbreds or Team Valor is next? After all, don't they get to go and watch races and own horses "with other people's money" too?

Maybe we can call Barry Irwin some names as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Great point....if he wants to knock out his competition, I can live with that but dont really agree with it.....the whole "protecting" thing is just absurd and a total copoutExactly. It was his whole bringing up of the Eight Belles and Ruffian thing that really got me to write what I did on the front page.

If he had just said "Yeah, that's a great idea...it will give me a better chance to win," I could accept that. But to paint it as "I'm saving the filly from potential doom" came off as utterly revolting and completely disingenuous.

[Imriledup]

Come on man...up your game just a little. They look slimy? What?!?!?!?

And how is IEAH all that different from every other racing partnership out there? A group of people pool their money and off we go...

I guess a hate post on West Point Thoroughbreds or Team Valor is next? After all, don't they get to go and watch races and own horses "with other people's money" too?

Maybe we can call Barry Irwin some names as well.

During their run with Big Brown, their trainer turned a lot of people off with his attitude and things he said, not to mention, he's a convicted drug cheat with a long laundry list of rules breaking. Why don't you understand that a lot of people don't like or respect these connections?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Pimlico won't be too happy if you stuff the entry box with runners who have no intention of racing and you keep a mega box office attraction on the bench.
Pimlico is bankrupt! Stronach wants RA's $100,000!!LOL!!

[Valuist]

One very simple rule both Pim and Bel could make is to exclude any maiden entered. And I'm sure someone will point out that the forgettable Nolan's Cat ran 3rd in the Belmont a few years ago and if one had a GPS, they maybe could've seen him when Afleet Alex crossed the wire.

[GaryG]

It's all over. all of them now say there will be no more entries. No plans to block RA.

http://drf.com/news/article/103668.html

[Moyers Pond]

I don't like blocking horses and I would think that she might be a little vulnerable with just 2 weeks rest anyway. I still don't think she is as good as Zenyatta but she should handle the Preakness field the way it is setting up. It will be a little different for her though because the pace is not going to be what she is used to.

[ryesteve]

One very simple rule both Pim and Bel could make is to exclude any maiden entered.They'd have to do a lot more than that. Of the 22 horses Zayat could've entered, I'm sure he had enough that were winners.

[toussaud]

Come on man...up your game just a little. They look slimy? What?!?!?!?

And how is IEAH all that different from every other racing partnership out there? A group of people pool their money and off we go...

I guess a hate post on West Point Thoroughbreds or Team Valor is next? After all, don't they get to go and watch races and own horses "with other people's money" too?

Maybe we can call Barry Irwin some names as well.

I think you mis understand my point. I don't HATE IEAH. I acutally LIKE IEAH. I'm just stating why there is so much hatred for them. I have no problem with them at all

[rokitman]

I wonder if I can still get my horse, Zippy Chippy Jr., in there.

[fmolf]

handicapping the preakness thru connections:

a)Jackson rushes to buy her when her price is at its apex.....so she must be capable in his and asmussens eyes to win the preakness

b)allen acting like he is scared of her and does not want mine that bird facing her

c)baffert and zayat must also think she is the real deal because they entertained thoughts of blocking her entry

i find these three facts very telling!

[toussaud]

d) borel jumping off mine that bird as if it were the titanic to get on RAchael even though he won the derby on mine that bird

e) he didn't get alot of pup but stute was also stating he wanted the box stuffed... but was saying so in a joking manner.. unless you are going to do it, then I'm serious... but seriously I don't mean it.. or do i?

[Relwob Owner]

d) borel jumping off mine that bird as if it were the titanic to get on RAchael even though he won the derby on mine that bird

e) he didn't get alot of pup but stute was also stating he wanted the box stuffed... but was saying so in a joking manner.. unless you are going to do it, then I'm serious... but seriously I don't mean it.. or do i?


I have a question.....Zayat admitted that owners were conspiring to keep a horse out.....this seems to me to be pretty darn close to race fixing, doesnt it? I wonder if any of the powers that be are going to take a look at that....


I had four people already today who saw the story yesterday and know I am into horses ask me this question and as usual when people ask me about horse racing's policies that make no sense and arent enforced, I just shrugged my shoulders....

[toussaud]

I have a question.....Zayat admitted that owners were conspiring to keep a horse out.....this seems to me to be pretty darn close to race fixing, doesnt it? I wonder if any of the powers that be are going to take a look at that....


I had four people already today who saw the story yesterday and know I am into horses ask me this question and as usual when people ask me about horse racing's policies that make no sense and arent enforced, I just shrugged my shoulders....


I would think the legal definiation of race fixing is fixing a set race to have the desired outcome. Not dealing with having horses entered that would dicated your outcome. I think that's a fine line.

[Relwob Owner]

I would think the legal definiation of race fixing is fixing a set race to have the desired outcome. Not dealing with having horses entered that would dicated your outcome. I think that's a fine line.



I agree.....However, I have read that stewards have suspended owners and trainers for doing it and I am almost possible it isnt allowed. I just think that in this era of "lots of rules and no enforcement" in horse racing, a high profile admitted that the Derby winner's owner called him to try and manipulate the horses in a race and it seems like noone is questioning it at all.

[bobphilo]

Ahmed Zayad and Mark Allen, probably embarrassed by the overwhelming uproar over their attempts to block the entry of RA as well as the absurd reasoning behind their plans, have decided to not enter extra horses to block the entry of the Filly in the Preakness. D. Wayne Lukas, who also said he would enter last place Derby finisher, Flying Private as part of the conspiracy, also has had a change of heart.


An unrepentant Zayat still claims that his threatened actions were not the cause of the uproar but blames RA owner Jesse Jackson for having entered the filly against colts. As if an owner does not have the right to enter a talented horse, and favorite no less, where he feels she belongs.


Apparently, Zayats plot would not have worked anyway since there the is no such written ”rule” favoring nominated horses over supplemental entries like RA.


It would be nice if racing got its rules straight.


http://www.drf.com/news/article/103668.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/103668.html)


Bob

[ezrabrooks]

Ahmed Zayad and Mark Allen, probably embarrassed by the overwhelming uproar over their attempts to block the entry of RA as well as the absurd reasoning behind their plans, have decided to not enter extra horses to block the entry of the Filly in the Preakness. D. Wayne Lukas, who also said he would enter last place Derby finisher, Flying Private as part of the conspiracy, also has had a change of heart.


An unrepentant Zayat still claims that his threatened actions were not the cause of the uproar but blames RA owner Jesse Jackson for having entered the filly against colts. As if an owner does not have the right to enter a talented horse, and favorite no less, where he feels she belongs.


Apparently, Zayats plot would not have worked anyway since there the is no such written ”rule” favoring nominated horses over supplemental entries like RA.


It would be nice if racing got its rules straight.


http://www.drf.com/news/article/103668.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/103668.html)


Bob


Common sense would be that original nominees would have preference over supplementals.. The original nominees have run the risk of the nominating process.

Ez

[bobphilo]

Common sense would be that original nominees would have preference over supplementals.. The original nominees have run the risk of the nominating process.

Ez

True in general, however a nominee with low earnings and who is entered for the sole purpose of keeping another horse out and then is scratched should get no preference.

Whatever the rules, what makes the most common sense is that the rules, whatever they are, should be clear and in writing. Owners should also be better informed about the real rules before they announce entry plans and journalists covering the race should also know the rules before they write anything.

Bob

[mostpost]

I would think the legal definiation of race fixing is fixing a set race to have the desired outcome. Not dealing with having horses entered that would dicated your outcome. I think that's a fine line.

I think a better word to use would be "Collusion".
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

Whether this fits the legal definition I don't know.

[ezrabrooks]

True in general, however a nominee with low earnings and who is entered for the sole purpose of keeping another horse out and then is scratched should get no preference.

Whatever the rules, what makes the most common sense is that the rules, whatever they are, should be clear and in writing. Owners should also be better informed about the real rules before they announce entry plans and journalists covering the race should also know the rules before they write anything.

Bob

I see your point..but, how do you Supplement into a race that is filled?

Ez

[PaceAdvantage]

I think you mis understand my point. I don't HATE IEAH. I acutally LIKE IEAH. I'm just stating why there is so much hatred for them. I have no problem with them at allI was merely pointing out that there are plenty of entities out there that get to watch races and buy horses with other people's money. Why you felt the need to bash IEAH because they are a racing partnership is beyond me...

[PaceAdvantage]

I have a question.....Zayat admitted that owners were conspiring to keep a horse out.....this seems to me to be pretty darn close to race fixing, doesnt it? I wonder if any of the powers that be are going to take a look at that....I wish people would stop with the race fixing nonsense. It's completely inaccurate to assign such a label to what could have happened in this case.

Keeping a horse out of the starting gate by way of completely LEGAL maneuvers is not race fixing.

[toussaud]

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of entities out there that get to watch races and buy horses with other people's money. Why you felt the need to bash IEAH because they are a racing partnership is beyond me...

again, i wasn't bashing them. however it is this forum's favoriate pasttime which is why I brought him up. I LIKE IEAH.


me= like IEAH

forum= bashes IEAH beucause of envy/jealousy/etc

[Imriledup]

again, i wasn't bashing them. however it is this forum's favoriate pasttime which is why I brought him up. I LIKE IEAH.


me= like IEAH

forum= bashes IEAH beucause of envy/jealousy/etc

People bash IEAH because of their loudmouth trainer who did his best job of insulting everyone and acting like a jackass during Big Brown's run to the Triple Crown. I'm not sure that has anything to do with jealousy or envy. I don't want to get into Michael Iavarone either, if you want to find all about him, google his name and find out all you need to know, but i seriously don't think people are jealous of them.

There are plenty of owners in horse racing who have lots of money (much more than IEAH) and are actually nice likeable people who employ honest trainers...THOSE are the people you ought to be jealous of if you are in the jealousy and envy business.

[toussaud]

People bash IEAH because of their loudmouth trainer who did his best job of insulting everyone and acting like a jackass during Big Brown's run to the Triple Crown. I'm not sure that has anything to do with jealousy or envy. I don't want to get into Michael Iavarone either, if you want to find all about him, google his name and find out all you need to know, but i seriously don't think people are jealous of them.

There are plenty of owners in horse racing who have lots of money (much more than IEAH) and are actually nice likeable people who employ honest trainers...THOSE are the people you ought to be jealous of if you are in the jealousy and envy business.


who?


Godolphin= Sorry wrong answer
IEAH= see your post
Coolmore= no
Jess jakcson= too egotistical

why stop there?


So my question is... who exactly IS good for racing? Apparantly it's not anyone with any money.

see, NBC has it figured out, has us pegged to the core. Unless you are working in a convenience store and you pawn your house to spot this 3 legged colt in the yearling ring, and had your lights cut out more than once beucas eyou had to pay trainer bills all while trying to get this one horse to the track, then when the horse flashes some talent you decide not to sale becuase "the dream is more important than money", you are bad for the sport.Becuase that's all NBC or anyone else cares about.

all week of the derby we heard how great a story tom mccarthy was. how is a 5% career trainer who can't and won't give credit to a guy that helped him out in a dier time of need good for racing? I mean dont' get me wrong.. it's not BAD for racing. Oh, it's becuase he doesn't have money and he "got over" on the rich Ken Ramsey. he STUCK IT TO THE MAN!


I don't particually like dutrow but the man is one of the better trainers in the country. And I freankly dont' care what Mike did in the past, I have a past as does everyone here, not all of it is peaches and cream.

[toussaud]

you can be the biggest asshat on earth but if you are broke it's a great story and it's great for horse racing. Mine that bird when he first crossed the wire, everyone looked at the Kmart dressed crew and assuemd they were broke and it was a great story. then they found out that they probably had more money than majority of the field, and now they are scandlous..ohhhhhh.


also, to be a good story your trainer must not have more than 3 horses. Maybe 4 if more than 1 are claiming horses. any trainer that has anytype of resemblenace of anything that looks like the word success is considered bac for horse racing. god forbid you have more than one string of horses. you might as well punch yourself in the black eye for all the damage you are to the sport!

nevermind that trainers routainly beat themselves up to get to the claim box to claim your horses to move them up and make money. Nevermind your horses dosage is probably higher than your win percentage. none of those "trival" things matter. like stakes wins and training titles. I mean who keeps up with that type of stuff anyway?

[Relwob Owner]

I wish people would stop with the race fixing nonsense. It's completely inaccurate to assign such a label to what could have happened in this case.

Keeping a horse out of the starting gate by way of completely LEGAL maneuvers is not race fixing.


Pace,

I was simply asking the question, which you have to admit, is one that comes up in this situation. Also, on this forum, someone responded that owners or trainers being caught doing this have gotten suspended by the stewards(not sure which thread but I had asked the question and gotten that response, I believe), so isnt it then illegal?


Let me ask you this if you think this is "nonsense"....lets say that there are 10 horses in a race and four have early speed.....the owner of one calls the other three and tries to persuade them to scratch so he/she is lone speed....you are saying this is legal? If it is, then fine but that would be the answer I was looking for...

I agree that the correlation to race fixing may not be accurate(which is why when I have mentioned it, I have asked the question to others on the forum and havent come close to stating it as fact). However, saying it is "nonsense" doesnt ring true to me because it seems like a logical question.

In the MTB situation, cant you see that it could be construed as some sort of antitrust/collusion situation? Think of it this way-each owner is running a business through their horse....they collude with others(Zayat) to keep another out.....I was simply asking if this was accurate and if so could be looked at as race fixing?

Maybe wrong, maybe right but I think it is a question that is logical to be asked...


Lastly, to your question of "wishing people would stop with the race fixing nonsense", I am surprised by that reaction....I didnt make any accusations at all-just laid out the situation to others and looked for a response, which seems to me to be totally appropriate.

[Imriledup]

Pace,

I was simply asking the question, which you have to admit, is one that comes up in this situation. Also, on this forum, someone responded that owners or trainers being caught doing this have gotten suspended by the stewards(not sure which thread but I had asked the question and gotten that response, I believe), so isnt it then illegal?


Let me ask you this if you think this is "nonsense"....lets say that there are 10 horses in a race and four have early speed.....the owner of one calls the other three and tries to persuade them to scratch so he/she is lone speed....you are saying this is legal? If it is, then fine but that would be the answer I was looking for...

I agree that the correlation to race fixing may not be accurate(which is why when I have mentioned it, I have asked the question to others on the forum and havent come close to stating it as fact). However, saying it is "nonsense" doesnt ring true to me because it seems like a logical question.

In the MTB situation, cant you see that it could be construed as some sort of antitrust/collusion situation? Think of it this way-each owner is running a business through their horse....they collude with others(Zayat) to keep another out.....I was simply asking if this was accurate and if so could be looked at as race fixing?

Maybe wrong, maybe right but I think it is a question that is logical to be asked...


Lastly, to your question of "wishing people would stop with the race fixing nonsense", I am surprised by that reaction....I didnt make any accusations at all-just laid out the situation to others and looked for a response, which seems to me to be totally appropriate.

Um, this is kinda the way the world works. As an example, think of nepotism in the job market. Also, think of racism. There are plenty of times and situations where people don't do the right things morally and technically, you could be right about collusion and race fixing going hand in hand.

How about this example.....lets say a jock is beaten for the win and just stops riding hard and gets nosed for 2nd....is THAT race fixing also? You can make the case that it is.

As far as your 'early speed' angle, that happens all the time. Owners sometimes pay off people in order to get a better 'pace' result, especially in big races. I'm quite sure jockeys talk amongst themselves so they don't get in speed duels. Happens all the time.


How about 'rabbits'? Rabbits are entered all the time with no intent to win, just to make the early pace faster. Zayat entered a 'pace rabbit' to mess with The Pamplemousse, but when he got scratched, they scratched the rabbit.(only to have baffert say in the post race interview that he wished Zayat would have kept the rabbit in the race so Pioneer of the Nile wouldn't have been pulling so hard early in the race)
Racing looks the other way unfortunately and lets all this stuff go on.

[Relwob Owner]

Um, this is kinda the way the world works. As an example, think of nepotism in the job market. Also, think of racism. There are plenty of times and situations where people don't do the right things morally and technically, you could be right about collusion and race fixing going hand in hand.

How about this example.....lets say a jock is beaten for the win and just stops riding hard and gets nosed for 2nd....is THAT race fixing also? You can make the case that it is.

As far as your 'early speed' angle, that happens all the time. Owners sometimes pay off people in order to get a better 'pace' result, especially in big races. I'm quite sure jockeys talk amongst themselves so they don't get in speed duels. Happens all the time.



How about 'rabbits'? Rabbits are entered all the time with no intent to win, just to make the early pace faster. Zayat entered a 'pace rabbit' to mess with The Pamplemousse, but when he got scratched, they scratched the rabbit.(only to have baffert say in the post race interview that he wished Zayat would have kept the rabbit in the race so Pioneer of the Nile wouldn't have been pulling so hard early in the race)
Racing looks the other way unfortunately and lets all this stuff go on.


I agree and your points are well taken. I was just curious if there were rules in place. In the Mid Atlantic, this does happen all of the time, especially with specific outfits that seem to always get in off of the also eligible list.
The sum of it is as you said is,

[I]Racing looks the other way unfortunately and lets all this stuff go on.

In my opinion, if there isnt a rule in place there should be because the way I see it, manipulating things before the race is just as questionable as doing it during the race....

[Imriledup]

I agree and your points are well taken. I was just curious if there were rules in place. In the Mid Atlantic, this does happen all of the time, especially with specific outfits that seem to always get in off of the also eligible list.
The sum of it is as you said is,

[I]Racing looks the other way unfortunately and lets all this stuff go on.

In my opinion, if there isnt a rule in place there should be because the way I see it, manipulating things before the race is just as questionable as doing it during the race....
Absolutely agree.

There's all sortsa games going on.

[PaceAdvantage]

the owner of one calls the other three and tries to persuade them to scratch so he/she is lone speed....It depends entirely on what you mean by "persuade."

[PaceAdvantage]

Entering a rabbit is called strategy. Everybody knows its a rabbit and what it is there to do...

Hell, Zayat entering a bunch of second-stringers to keep Rachel out is also called strategy.

Like I've said elsewhere, I would have had MUCH LESS of a problem if Zayat had been HONEST with the public as to why he considered stuffing the gate. But he had to go all high and mighty on us and bring up Eight Belles and Ruffian and how he was just looking out on "his watch."

If he had simply said "I'm thinking about stuffing the gate to keep out a horse who very well might cost me the Preakness," I probably wouldn't have written what I did on the front page the other day....

[Imriledup]

Entering a rabbit is called strategy. Everybody knows its a rabbit and what it is there to do...

Hell, Zayat entering a bunch of second-stringers to keep Rachel out is also called strategy.

Like I've said elsewhere, I would have had MUCH LESS of a problem if Zayat had been HONEST with the public as to why he considered stuffing the gate. But he had to go all high and mighty on us and bring up Eight Belles and Ruffian and how he was just looking out on "his watch."

If he had simply said "I'm thinking about stuffing the gate to keep out a horse who very well might cost me the Preakness," I probably wouldn't have written what I did on the front page the other day....

Totally agree. He thinks because he has more money than most of us he can just feed us lines and we'll buy into his nonsense. Just be honest about it, you want her out so you have a better shot to win. Its not a crime to want to win.

[rastajenk]

Regarding "collusion" vs. race-fixing, it seems to me entry-box stuffing is on the same moral plane as the racing office hustling horses with no chance just to make a race go, which happens every day everywhere. Bettors will analyze, handicap and bet real money on runners that may fit the conditions, but realistically have little chance or intention of winning. Is that race-fixing? I don't think so.

[Relwob Owner]

Regarding "collusion" vs. race-fixing, it seems to me entry-box stuffing is on the same moral plane as the racing office hustling horses with no chance just to make a race go, which happens every day everywhere. Bettors will analyze, handicap and bet real money on runners that may fit the conditions, but realistically have little chance or intention of winning. Is that race-fixing? I don't think so.


I do think this sort of thing happens all the time....however, I dont see the analogy with racing offices hustling to make races go. They do that to ensure all races are as filled as possible and the races go off as planned to fill a card. The entry box stuffing or owners getting together is done to keep horses OUT and that seems to be a very different situation.

[rastajenk]

I understand the difference you're pointing out; I'm just saying that both situations involve pre-entry maneuverings that run counter to the idealistic, perfect world notion that every horse entered has an equal chance to win, based on the conditions (weight, age, sex, winnings, etc) of any given race.

[Relwob Owner]

I understand the difference you're pointing out; I'm just saying that both situations involve pre-entry maneuverings that run counter to the idealistic, perfect world notion that every horse entered has an equal chance to win, based on the conditions (weight, age, sex, winnings, etc) of any given race.


Gotcha-I see what you are saying

[Relwob Owner]

Entering a rabbit is called strategy. Everybody knows its a rabbit and what it is there to do...

Hell, Zayat entering a bunch of second-stringers to keep Rachel out is also called strategy.

Like I've said elsewhere, I would have had MUCH LESS of a problem if Zayat had been HONEST with the public as to why he considered stuffing the gate. But he had to go all high and mighty on us and bring up Eight Belles and Ruffian and how he was just looking out on "his watch."

If he had simply said "I'm thinking about stuffing the gate to keep out a horse who very well might cost me the Preakness," I probably wouldn't have written what I did on the front page the other day....


I totally understand the concepts of entering a rabbit and other moves done by owners to keep a certain horse IN THE RACE from doing welll...I know they exist and can live with that....the house I brought up is keeping a horse OUT of a race. This is an entirely different question than entering a rabbit, jockeys making the pace hard, etc.

Plus, Zayat stuffing the race is different than what I am questioning because he is ONE owner. I can understand the legality of him entering as many as he wants but I think when it gets to multiple owners, it can be viewed in a much more different and negative light.

In any business situation it does happen all the time that different entities get together and make life hard for another competing business....however, they cannot work together to keep another entity from doing business in the first place....that is collusion, as far as I know.

My stance/question is whether or not MULTIPLE owners of horses are held to the same standard in terms of keeping another horse OUT of the race entirely. As I have said before, maybe there arent rules against it but I think there should be.

Lastly, does anyone know for sure if there are specific rules against it(owners openly getting together-like MTB and Zayat and Whitney were alledged to be discussing) to keep a horse out of a race? I have gotten mixed responses from people at the track. Im not trying to beat a dead horse(no pun intended) but am simply looking for a definitive answer.