They Are Gonna Load the Field Up....No RA?

[SmartyLane]

Just watced HRTV's Race Day American and Ahmed Zayat was interviewed and said that the owner of MTB called and they are going to try and keep the field in the Preakness loaded, to prevent RA to make it. Whitney and Zayat will both enter a horse, and Alan MTB's owner is going to enter one as well.

Alan told Ahmed that he wanted to prove his MTB was not a fluke and knew POTN wanted a rematch. I can understand all this, but it seems to me they are just wanting to side-step RA.

I can see both sides of this.

Thoughts?

[cj's dad]

If true,another great move by the owners with the fans best interests in mind.

[Tom]

If it is true, says a lot for his respect for his own horse. Maybe he knows something we don't about the Derby win?

[fmolf]

Just watced HRTV's Race Day American and Ahmed Zayat was interviewed and said that the owner of MTB called and they are going to try and keep the field in the Preakness loaded, to prevent RA to make it. Whitney and Zayat will both enter a horse, and Alan MTB's owner is going to enter one as well.

Alan told Ahmed that he wanted to prove his MTB was not a fluke and knew POTN wanted a rematch. I can understand all this, but it seems to me they are just wanting to side-step RA.

I can see both sides of this.

Thoughts?
If this happens it would be in such poor sportmanship!this would be very bad for racing to have this kind of underhanded (albeit within the rules)dirty dealing going on...... racing is supposed to be about the best horse winning...if she wants to try the boys i hope they let her!

[andymays]

I was watching and heard news.

These people have ego's so big they could care less about the fans (Zayat was just relaying the information). Jealousy and envy come to mind as well.

This would be a really weak move to exclude her from the Preakness!

[garyscpa]

So now the other owners enter or don't based on the whims of MTB's owner? :D

[Smarty Cide]

so basically i guess this all means that if she is in the race bet the house on her...

[46zilzal]

If it is true, says a lot for his respect for his own horse. Maybe he knows something we don't about the Derby win?
OR, there will be an outcry that they "ganged up" on the poor girl like Forty Niner did to Winning Colors.

[JustRalph]

It's about Jess Jackson............get with it..........guys


This has nothing to do with the horses............

It is about keeping Jess Jackson from buying more eclipse awards

[badcompany]

The Official Preakness site has her in.

[Edward DeVere]

When elephants fight, it is the grass which suffers.

[Tom]

When elephants fight, it is the grass which suffers.

OK, post of the month so far.....:lol:

[Bruddah]

When elephants fight, it is the grass which suffers.

Edward Please! You are wasting wonderful thought provoking posts of wisdom on our little group. :lol: :D

[JustRalph]

I heard on the Steve Byk show that they have until Wednesday afternoon to enter

[fmolf]

I heard on the Steve Byk show that they have until Wednesday afternoon to enter
a poster on another thread says this is "conspiracy to fix a horse race"..could it be? i do not think so...suppose it goes like this hello mmr. zayat i am thinking of entering a rabbit in the preakness to set a fast pace for mtb to run at.....mmmm yes.. i may do the same....i am worried she may just run off uncontested!...you see where it could happen would that be race fixing...i do not think so?

[toussaud]

it's not race fixing, but it's patheticly unsportsmanlike

I didin't like POTN before today. Now I hope he comes in dead last

[fmolf]

whatever happened to the gentlemanly sport of kings!

[CincyHorseplayer]

When elephants fight, it is the grass which suffers.

Is that on the undercard??1mile Turf Stakes for elephants 3yo and up??

[Relwob Owner]

whatever happened to the gentlemanly sport of kings!


Yeah, I agree.....dont really like this at all....now, I am reminded of the articles that shed negative light on MTB's owners....that, combined with this situation sheds some light on their general integrity....

Betting wise, I am praying she is in because I cant wait to bet against her....

[Relwob Owner]

It's about Jess Jackson............get with it..........guys


This has nothing to do with the horses............

It is about keeping Jess Jackson from buying more eclipse awards


How many Eclipse Awards has Jess Jackson bought?

I, for one, respected him as an owner with what he did with Curlin. He went everywhere with the horse and rarely walked away from too many challenges, including his last race on the poly at the BC...

Plus, if Jackson was buying RA to win an Eclipse award with her, he would simply keep her against fillies and run away with the filly award...by going agaist the boys, he ios taking the risk she comes out of the race like Rags to Riches did and isnt heard from much again....

[SmartyLane]

This is all is being talked about on HRTV right now.............

The more I think about it and whether you like RA's new connections or not I think this is out of line. The only part I feel bad for is that MTB looses his jockey to the newly entered RA. Other then that, I think this is not right. Zayat says that the TC races are for colts along with Whitney. What if they were owners of RA? Put themselves in the others shoes and they might feel differently.

In my opinion no matter the sex of the horse the TC are for the best horses in the world to compete against each other. She is one of the best, and this race would prove it. I never look at the owners to decide on whether I like a horse or not, b/c the horse has no choice as to who owns them. They are merely pawns in which the owners do what they want with them.

These guys are just plain ole' afraid to race against her.

[SmartyLane]

How many Eclipse Awards has Jess Jackson bought?

I, for one, respected him as an owner with what he did with Curlin. He went everywhere with the horse and rarely walked away from too many challenges, including his last race on the poly at the BC...

Plus, if Jackson was buying RA to win an Eclipse award with her, he would simply keep her against fillies and run away with the filly award...by going agaist the boys, he ios taking the risk she comes out of the race like Rags to Riches did and isnt heard from much again....

I'm with ya. Curlin was one of my favorites in the last few years. Like Jackson or not, he never shyed away from running against the best. He took Curlin everywhere and tried to promote the sport. Whether he did this to make himself look good or not, he did what most other owners won't. Keep a great horse running as a 4 year old and run him all over the world, on all types of track. Synthetic, Dubai's sand, Grass, Dirt. Like it or not you got to respect the guy.

[812crew]

I'm kind of new to the game, so I don't know how all this works, but I'm wondering if a track can ever choose to make a special exemption in a case like this. Rachel Alexandra obviously elevates the drama of the Preakness exponentially. Could Pimlico theoretically put her in, no matter how much the other owners try to load up the field with qualified contenders? I can only imagine that a struggling track like this would look for any way to make their race one of the most talked about of the year.

[toussaud]

I'm kind of new to the game, so I don't know how all this works, but I'm wondering if a track can ever choose to make a special exemption in a case like this. Rachel Alexandra obviously elevates the drama of the Preakness exponentially. Could Pimlico theoretically put her in, no matter how much the other owners try to load up the field with qualified contenders? I can only imagine that a struggling track like this would look for any way to make their race one of the most talked about of the year.
golf has one


at the end of the day, RA = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for pimlico. I think the people of maryland find a way to make sure she runs at the end of the day. It's a decision that could cost millions of dollars by wagering, track attendence, TV coverage, media exposure, and I don't see them letting some unsportman owners ruin their one day in the sun

[Cat Thief]

That buying her for an Eclipse Award is not I believe accurate. I think he primarily bought her for breeding purposes (Curlin's baby) but will see how she does against the colts

[Relwob Owner]

I'm kind of new to the game, so I don't know how all this works, but I'm wondering if a track can ever choose to make a special exemption in a case like this. Rachel Alexandra obviously elevates the drama of the Preakness exponentially. Could Pimlico theoretically put her in, no matter how much the other owners try to load up the field with qualified contenders? I can only imagine that a struggling track like this would look for any way to make their race one of the most talked about of the year.


Absoultely no clue and I am assuming someone on here has an answer....good question. Monmouth had a race just for Big Brown so i guess anything is possible but I imagine it being a Triple Crown race would make it more restrictive

[dutzman]

The only reason Zayat says the Triple Crown races are for colts is because he is scared to run against RA. If he had a superstar filly with a legitimate chance to beat the boys you bet your last dollar she would be in there.....running against the boys. He's not going to sit back and say "No, I think she can win the Preakness but I'm not going to run her, because TC races are for colts".....please......he is scared to run against her.....as well he should be.


You know, he talks a big game when it comes to his superstar horses, but when it comes down to it he doesn't want to run against the best to see if he is the best.......

[toussaud]

allen says it's not right for a filly to race against colts at this stage in their career.


(but it's perfectly okay to throw a utterly outclassed colt into a race he has no chance in just to keep out a filly that just so happens to have drasctly much more talent than your horse has.)

[sonnyp]

[QUOTE=fmolf]whatever happened to the gentlemanly sport of kings![/QUOTE


listen....this owner's father admitted in a plea bargain that this man {his son) had paid off a u.s.senator in alaska which put millions of $$$$ in each member of the family's pockets.

why would ANYONE be shocked or surprized at this move? these people have NO scrupples.... a lot of money....thats how they get it...no scrupples.

the illustrious ken ramsey, a few years back, when he was being considered for owner of the year (of all things) pulled the same crap. these are vicious, self centered people who live vicariously through their horses.

real creeps. the sad part is that the average stand up guy admires these jerks because of their wealth and position.

[sonnyp]

I'm kind of new to the game, so I don't know how all this works, but I'm wondering if a track can ever choose to make a special exemption in a case like this. Rachel Alexandra obviously elevates the drama of the Preakness exponentially. Could Pimlico theoretically put her in, no matter how much the other owners try to load up the field with qualified contenders? I can only imagine that a struggling track like this would look for any way to make their race one of the most talked about of the year.


no exemptions, no exceptions. horses not nominated and needing to be supplimented get at the end of the line as far as getting "in" to race. if 14 others, who were nominated originally, enter....she's out.
could happen in the belmont also.

baffert, once, entered 4 horses in a stake to ensure the race office would have to card "split" divisions in hopes his big horse would end up in the division other than his main rival (divisions are put together by luck of the draw). when that objective came to pass as he had hoped, he simply scratched the other 3. nice.

[ryesteve]

Zayat is speaking on TVG right now, and he is so full of crap, it's making me sick. Does he really expect anyone to believe that he's doing this "for the good of the game" and to "protect" the filly??? For crissakes...

[miesque]

I have an observation to make and its purely my opinion, but I am starting to think that people are starting to lose their collective minds over Rachel Alexander potentially being in the Preakness and are making an awful lot of assumptions. Everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath. I get a bit wary when (1) plans are changed mid-stream for a horse and a horse is then asked to do something its never done before and (2) when past results are blindly extrapolated upon to make a future result appear to be a foregone conclusion. As talented as Rachel Alexander is (an I believe that is one point on which we all agree on), the fact is she has been put on a training regime by her prior to run in the Kentucky Oaks and then in the Acorn five weeks later and her races has been spaced accordingly heading towards that goal. Now you have a change of both owner and trainer and the path has been altered with only a few days of training under the new connections as a result it has a feel like she is getting pushed to make the Preakness. Rachel Alexander has yet to face a field even remotely resembling what she will face in the Preakness and little as may be thought of those lining up. It will be a full, rough field of 14 with a healthy dose of early speed and its even a little further then she has previously gone. She may well dust the field, but its also possible that she doesn't deal as well if things don't go her way. In addition, while the popular premise is that the Oaks win was just a workout since she did it so easily, how often do we see those types of blowouts and it looks like the horse is running easily until they run a subpar effort next out and then it becomes apparent that did have a greater toll then initially though. Also, its just one race, the Preakness, if she doesn't race in it, its not the end of the world by any means.

[toussaud]

I have an observation to make and its purely my opinion, but I am starting to think that people are starting to lose their collective minds over Rachel Alexander potentially being in the Preakness and are making an awful lot of assumptions. Everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath. I get a bit wary when (1) plans are changed mid-stream for a horse and a horse is then asked to do something its never done before and (2) when past results are blindly extrapolated upon to make a future result appear to be a foregone conclusion. As talented as Rachel Alexander is (an I believe that is one point on which we all agree on), the fact is she has been put on a training regime by her prior to run in the Kentucky Oaks and then in the Acorn five weeks later and her races has been spaced accordingly heading towards that goal. Now you have a change of both owner and trainer and the path has been altered with only a few days of training under the new connections as a result it has a feel like she is getting pushed to make the Preakness. Rachel Alexander has yet to face a field even remotely resembling what she will face in the Preakness and little as may be thought of those lining up. It will be a full, rough field of 14 with a healthy dose of early speed and its even a little further then she has previously gone. She may well dust the field, but its also possible that she doesn't deal as well if things don't go her way. In addition, while the popular premise is that the Oaks win was just a workout since she did it so easily, how often do we see those types of blowouts and it looks like the horse is running easily until they run a subpar effort next out and then it becomes apparent that did have a greater toll then initially though. Also, its just one race, the Preakness, if she doesn't race in it, its not the end of the world by any means.
all of this is specuation.

No one knows what she will or won't do until she actually RUNS. you might be right. I might be right. but that's why they play the game.

[miesque]

all of this is specuation.

No one knows what she will or won't do until she actually RUNS. you might be right. I might be right. but that's why they play the game.

I was actually not trying to predict what will or will not happen in the Preakness, more pointing out its not a foregone conclusion. If she runs, there is a good chance she will be somewhere on my tickets but she will by no means be a single.

[toussaud]

moral of today's story=

if you have a graded stakes winning 2YO pay the damn 600 dollar supplimental fee.

or if you have a graded stakes winning 3YO before april, pay the 6,000 dollar supplimental fee.

[Relwob Owner]

I have an observation to make and its purely my opinion, but I am starting to think that people are starting to lose their collective minds over Rachel Alexander potentially being in the Preakness and are making an awful lot of assumptions. Everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath. I get a bit wary when (1) plans are changed mid-stream for a horse and a horse is then asked to do something its never done before and (2) when past results are blindly extrapolated upon to make a future result appear to be a foregone conclusion. As talented as Rachel Alexander is (an I believe that is one point on which we all agree on), the fact is she has been put on a training regime by her prior to run in the Kentucky Oaks and then in the Acorn five weeks later and her races has been spaced accordingly heading towards that goal. Now you have a change of both owner and trainer and the path has been altered with only a few days of training under the new connections as a result it has a feel like she is getting pushed to make the Preakness. Rachel Alexander has yet to face a field even remotely resembling what she will face in the Preakness and little as may be thought of those lining up. It will be a full, rough field of 14 with a healthy dose of early speed and its even a little further then she has previously gone. She may well dust the field, but its also possible that she doesn't deal as well if things don't go her way. In addition, while the popular premise is that the Oaks win was just a workout since she did it so easily, how often do we see those types of blowouts and it looks like the horse is running easily until they run a subpar effort next out and then it becomes apparent that did have a greater toll then initially though. Also, its just one race, the Preakness, if she doesn't race in it, its not the end of the world by any means.

Couldnt agree more...how people can think that a horse doing so many things for the first time and facing 13 other talented horses is some kind of "lock" or "no brainer" is really beyond me....people are very susceptible to hype and this is a clear example of that mentality.....I really, really hope she runs because I cannot wait to bet against her

[Burls]

I can't help saying that, not only would it be unsportsmanlike to exclude Rachel Alexandera from the Preakness, it would also be yet another marketing and public relations disaster for thoroughbred racing.
The horseracing business has failed miserably at getting women bettors out of the casinos and onto the racetracks.
Can't they see that the most obvious way to attract more bettors and more handle is to get more females out there?
It should be a foregone conclusion that RA is in the Preakness and they should be strategically advertising this race to get as many women into the game as possible.
If the exclusionary owners have their way, one of the results will be even less overall interest in thoroughbred racing by 50% of the potential new bettors out there.

[Relwob Owner]

moral of today's story=

if you have a graded stakes winning 2YO pay the damn 600 dollar supplimental fee.

or if you have a graded stakes winning 3YO before april, pay the 6,000 dollar supplimental fee.


If the previous owners had no plans ever to run against boys, why would they pay the fee?

[toussaud]

I was actually not trying to predict what will or will not happen in the Preakness, more pointing out its not a foregone conclusion. If she runs, there is a good chance she will be somewhere on my tickets but she will by no means be a single.
funny enough as much as I want her to run, and god knows I do, i'll bet against her if she does run.

[toussaud]

If the previous owners had no plans ever to run against boys, why would they pay the fee?
2 reasons

1. the owner knew good and damn well he wanted to sell the filly or at the very least, he knew it was a distinct posiblity. IF it's a posbility you are going to sell the filly, you pay the nomination to leave the option open for the possible new connections.

2. Options options optons. I had accecpted the fact she wasn't going to run in the derby. but for 600 bucks or even 6,000 dollars, why not keep all your options open? we are talking about 6 grand, in the grand scheme of things, not a lot of money. It's not like they are asking a 10,000 supplimentnal fee


zayat has 22 horses nominated for the TC. he has options.

RA doesn't have ANY options

[fmolf]

funny enough as much as I want her to run, and god knows I do, i'll bet against her if she does run.
i agree if her new connections want to run her and she gets shut out because one or more owners puts an inferior but nominated horse into the race ..that would be poor sportsmanship and a black eye for a sport struggling to right its ship......obviously J Jackson is not showing much respect for mtb and this crop of 3 yr olds....that in its self says alot!...question ...if she runs well win or lose will she run in the belmont?

[toussaud]

I don't htink so. s he doesn't have a running style condusive to the belmont and she's not a colt. her stallion resume is not going to improve by winning the belmont.

I think they try the preakness and depending on how she runs, if she blows them away I'd be suprised if honestly she ran against fillies again, maybe the distaff.

Jess doesn't strike me as the type of guy scared to take a loss.

I thinks he's the best horse but if she runs big drama and hull will be unholy underlays.

[Imriledup]

Keep in mind that Pimlico really wants her to get in the gate, its going to mean a lot more money for them, bigger attendance, etc.

Pimlico should have Rachel as an also eligible and then one of their vets can scratch some ridiculous horse who just 'happens' to have a cough the morning of the race.

[toussaud]

NOW

Zayat came just called carolyn conley at HRTV and told them that if the racing fans want RA to run, they won't block her.

[Smarty Cide]

Rachel Alexandra is going to win by at least 5....

[Imriledup]

i agree if her new connections want to run her and she gets shut out because one or more owners puts an inferior but nominated horse into the race ..that would be poor sportsmanship and a black eye for a sport struggling to right its ship......obviously J Jackson is not showing much respect for mtb and this crop of 3 yr olds....that in its self says alot!...question ...if she runs well win or lose will she run in the belmont?

Its poor sportsmanship to try and win money?

[NY BRED]

Let's see, if you are the dope that can't win a race no matter how much money
you have and spend, just load up the field and get everyone out of the race
so you can win.

After all,isn't that the usual mode at Dubai????:mad:

[miesque]

funny enough as much as I want her to run, and god knows I do, i'll bet against her if she does run.

I am not making any firm decisions about who I am including or exlcuding until post positions are drawn. I try to keep an open mind until that point (I admit I am not alway succesful at that by any means :D )

[toussaud]

Let's see, if you are the dope that can't win a race no matter how much money
you have and spend, just load up the field and get everyone out of the race
so you can win.

After all,isn't that the usual mode at Dubai????:mad:
no actually the shiekh's have a pretty lousy record over in dubai. this year's godolphin mile was the first race they won in years.

[joanied]

I've been oputside most of the day, didn't see the interview on TV about all this entering horses to keep RA out....amd IF that is the case...shame on these guys.
But, I see more posts than not concerning the betting angles and ether or not running her is good for the sport, Pimlico needs her...all that...
but the bottom line here, IMHO, IS the filly...I don't doubt that she can beat colts...but I am in doubt that can can do this in the preakness, for all of the obvious reasons, most of which have been discussed on other RA & Preakness posts...these other trainers that are scared she'll be in the gate, should consider the facts...she's in totally new surroundings with new people she needs to get a chance to know...she's already be taken to a new barn, and now they'll ship her to another strange place, and just 3 days out...which won't give her much time to acclimate to everything that she's been going through this past week...talk about a whirlwind of activity...plus the 2 weeks, and these trainers plotting against her running really shouldn't be scared at all.
IF she runs, I'll be rooting for her so loud they'll hear me from here in WY to Maryland... I would so love to see her win, if for no other reason, but to dispell all of the negatives we have been talking about.
:)

[sonnyp]

i agree if her new connections want to run her and she gets shut out because one or more owners puts an inferior but nominated horse into the race ..that would be poor sportsmanship and a black eye for a sport struggling to right its ship......obviously J Jackson is not showing much respect for mtb and this crop of 3 yr olds....that in its self says alot!...question ...if she runs well win or lose will she run in the belmont?

i think, with her running style and the shorter distance of this race, her new connections feel this is the optimum spot to take their best shot. if she should win, she has nothing more to prove. if she runs and loses, i can't imagine them rushing her back into the belmont. if she doesn't run, for whatever reason, i'd think they would simply go back to plan A and look at the acorn on the belmont undercard, especially if it was a conspiracy by the other owners that kept them from racing in the preakness, their first thought.

i guess what i'm saying, IMO, the belmont is not going to be one of their priorities.

p.s. there are some talented, fresh horses "lying in the weeds" as they always are for the belmont.

[toussaud]

I've been oputside most of the day, didn't see the interview on TV about all this entering horses to keep RA out....amd IF that is the case...shame on these guys.
But, I see more posts than not concerning the betting angles and ether or not running her is good for the sport, Pimlico needs her...all that...
but the bottom line here, IMHO, IS the filly...I don't doubt that she can beat colts...but I am in doubt that can can do this in the preakness, for all of the obvious reasons, most of which have been discussed on other RA & Preakness posts...these other trainers that are scared she'll be in the gate, should consider the facts...she's in totally new surroundings with new people she needs to get a chance to know...she's already be taken to a new barn, and now they'll ship her to another strange place, and just 3 days out...which won't give her much time to acclimate to everything that she's been going through this past week...talk about a whirlwind of activity...plus the 2 weeks, and these trainers plotting against her running really shouldn't be scared at all.
IF she runs, I'll be rooting for her so loud they'll hear me from here in WY to Maryland... I would so love to see her win, if for no other reason, but to dispell all of the negatives we have been talking about.
:)

I think the whole point is, it's not up to other owners to decide what's best for this filly.. who. considenclly will be the even money choice if she were to run. bu t of course that's not the issue here, it's 10000% the wellbeing of this precious filly.

[/scarcasm]

[toussaud]

and let me step on my soapbox for a second

the hyprocisy of this situtation is sickening. everyone (trainers, connections) are talking about the well being about the filly and how they are worried about her.

NO worry about Indy express? He's a freaking maiden!

marylou is entering a horse that just broke his maiden


yet no one gives a damn about the well being of these poor horses? what did they do wrong besides being talanted enough to run in big races but not talanted enough to actually win them or be competitive? they are too good to go in for a tag but not good enought o actually win anything, so they get put to the wolves.

all while the connections hide behind the mask of doing what's right by the game and looking out for the filly.

[Relwob Owner]

Keep in mind that Pimlico really wants her to get in the gate, its going to mean a lot more money for them, bigger attendance, etc.

Pimlico should have Rachel as an also eligible and then one of their vets can scratch some ridiculous horse who just 'happens' to have a cough the morning of the race.


What you just suggested is illegal.....

[dutzman]

In my opinion, this all boils down to Ahmed Zayat, Mike Allen, and the majority of other big time owners who think they are bigger than the game....

No one is bigger than the game itself.........but these guys beg to differ

[Imriledup]

What you just suggested is illegal.....

What i suggested is not illegal. What's illegal about it?

[Indulto]

Who was the Derby contender pushed out by Baffert when he entered Danthebluegrassman and then scratched him?

[Imriledup]

Who was the Derby contender pushed out by Baffert when he entered Danthebluegrassman and then scratched him?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2012.html

[toetoe]

When elephants fight, it is the grass which suffers.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: , but in the interest of pith, please truncate.

[toussaud]

now, zayat won't block but others will

[foregoforever]

This could be a good one for the lawyers. The Pimlico conditions book says absolutely nothing about preferences for original nominees.

THE PREAKNESS STAKES
$1,000,000 Guaranteed
FOR THREE-YEAR-OLDS. $10,000 to pass the entry box, starters to pay $10,000 additional. Supplemental nominations may be made in accordance with the rules, upon payment of $100,000, 60% of the purse to the winner, 20% to second, 11% to third, 6% to fourth and 3% to fifth. Weight 126 pounds for colts and geldings, 121 lbs., for fillies. Starters to be named through the entry box on Wednesday, May 13, 2009, three days before the race by the usual time of closing (the "Closing"). The Preakness field will be limited to fourteen (14) entries and shall be determined on the Wednesday immediately preceding the day of the race. In the event that more than fourteen (14) horses are properly nominated and pass through the entry box by the usual time of Closing, the starters will be determined at the Closing with the first (7) horses given preference by accumulating the highest earnings in Graded Stakes (lifetime), for purposes of this preference the graded status of each race shall be the graded status assigned to the race by the International Cataloguing Standards Committee in Part 1 of the International Cataloguing Standards as published by the Jockey Club Information Systems, Incorporated each year. The next four (4) starters will be determined by accumulating the highest earnings (lifetime) in all non-restricted stakes. "Non-restricted Sweepstakes" shall mean those sweepstakes whose conditions contain no restrictions other than that of age or sex. The remaining three (3) starters shall be determined by accumulating the highest earnings (lifetime) in all races. Should this preference produce any ties, the additional starter(s) shall be determined by lot. In application of the above described rule, each horse will be separately considered without regard to identity of its owner. If the rules described in this paragraph result in the exclusion of any horse, the $10,000 entry fee previously paid will be refunded to the owner of said horse. The above conditions notwithstanding , no horse which earns purse money in The Kentucky Derby shall be denied the opportunity to enter and start in The Preakness Stakes. A replica of the Woodlawn Vase will be presented to the winning owner to remain his or her personal property. First closing January 24, 2009. Second closing March 28, 2009.
Nominations Close Saturday, March 28, 2009

The Kentucky Derby conditions do make the distinction.

Supplemental Nominees will be allowed to enter but will not have preference over any Original Nominee and will not be allowed to start the Race if the maximum number of starters has otherwise been reached by Original Nominees prior to or at the Closing.

The Triple Crown site says nothing about any preferences, just noting that "Each Association reserves the right to make all decisions regarding preferences and conditions with regard to its respective Race and its decision shall be final."

I can't find the conditions for the Belmont on NYRA's site.

[Relwob Owner]

What i suggested is not illegal. What's illegal about it?


You had the race track actively doing things to ensure that a certain horse gets in.....that isnt allowed and is illegal

[joanied]

I think the whole point is, it's not up to other owners to decide what's best for this filly.. who. considenclly will be the even money choice if she were to run. bu t of course that's not the issue here, it's 10000% the wellbeing of this precious filly.

[/scarcasm]

That is what I said in my post...I assume you are in agreement, then.

[joanied]

Here is the printed story....

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50705/zayat-wont-block-rachel-but-others-will

...in all it's glory:faint:

The part that really makes my blood boil is Allen making this call...what kind of scumbag is this dude:mad: ...I shouldn't be surprised since reading about his 'background', but figured if he's a friend of Woolley, maybe he was an OK guy...NOT.
This goes so far beyond comprehension...I hope this won't hit the general public's attention...what would it do for getting new fans...this is simply criminal, IMO...not literally, but criminal behavior, it sucks, this Allen dude is a disgrace and doesn't deserve to have a Derby winner...
can ya tell I'm just a little pissed off:eek: ...and shame, shame, shame on Marylou Whitney...I hate to think of Zito going along with this, I will never think of her being a 'horsewoman' again if I live to be 100...and the worse thing, is she probably has absolutle no guilt about doing such a thing...bad, bad, bad Marylou:ThmbDown: ....'money talks' :bang:

OK...I'm done 'venting':faint:



"Zayat had earlier told HRTV: "I got a phone call earlier today that I wasn't familiar with the phone number of that particular person, and that person kept calling and, lo and behold, it was the owner of the Derby winner, Mine That Bird, and he said, 'Mr. Zayat, you don't know me, I'm Mark Allen. Listen I have a request for you. I think this race is between me and you. You'd have been the favorite if Rachel Alexandra is not in the field and I'm looking for vindication that my colt was not a fluke and I'm sure you are looking to beat us also. I think this match is between us, it's a rivalry. I'm going to be entering a colt, an A.P. Indy (http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=1245197&origin=BHonline) colt, to fill the field. I understand you are the number one owner in number of nominations -- 22 colts -- can you please help us. It's good for the game."

[Relwob Owner]

Here is the printed story....

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50705/zayat-wont-block-rachel-but-others-will

...in all it's glory:faint:

The part that really makes my blood boil is Allen making this call...what kind of scumbag is this dude:mad: ...I shouldn't be surprised since reading about his 'background', but figured if he's a friend of Woolley, maybe he was an OK guy...NOT.
This goes so far beyond comprehension...I hope this won't hit the general public's attention...what would it do for getting new fans...this is simply criminal, IMO...not literally, but criminal behavior, it sucks, this Allen dude is a disgrace and doesn't deserve to have a Derby winner...
can ya tell I'm just a little pissed off:eek: ...and shame, shame, shame on Marylou Whitney...I hate to think of Zito going along with this, I will never think of her being a 'horsewoman' again if I live to be 100...and the worse thing, is she probably has absolutle no guilt about doing such a thing...bad, bad, bad Marylou:ThmbDown: ....'money talks' :bang:

OK...I'm done 'venting':faint:



"Zayat had earlier told HRTV: "I got a phone call earlier today that I wasn't familiar with the phone number of that particular person, and that person kept calling and, lo and behold, it was the owner of the Derby winner, Mine That Bird, and he said, 'Mr. Zayat, you don't know me, I'm Mark Allen. Listen I have a request for you. I think this race is between me and you. You'd have been the favorite if Rachel Alexandra is not in the field and I'm looking for vindication that my colt was not a fluke and I'm sure you are looking to beat us also. I think this match is between us, it's a rivalry. I'm going to be entering a colt, an A.P. Indy (http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=1245197&origin=BHonline) colt, to fill the field. I understand you are the number one owner in number of nominations -- 22 colts -- can you please help us. It's good for the game."


Ugh....good points JD...

Question for anyone who might know......is it legal for an owner to call another and conspire to do this? I can see one owner doing it on his own but owners doing it together? Seems like there would be a rule against this.....

[joanied]

If there isn't a rule against this sort of thing...there should be...if nothing else, it's the perfect description of 'unethical behavior'.

I wonder if Wolley knew this was going down...according to that story, he's left KY. because of an infection in his leg...

[Relwob Owner]

If there isn't a rule against this sort of thing...there should be...if nothing else, it's the perfect description of 'unethical behavior'.

I wonder if Wolley knew this was going down...according to that story, he's left KY. because of an infection in his leg...



Also brings back to mind the story about the co-owners' dad admitting his son took a bribe....nice to see the son learned a lesson from that incident and is trying to bring the same wonderful sort of behjavior to racing.

[joanied]

Also brings back to mind the story about the co-owners' dad admitting his son took a bribe....nice to see the son learned a lesson from that incident and is trying to bring the same wonderful sort of behavior to racing.

Right...this dude has no scruples, has no idea about guilt or what the right thing to do is...

[cj's dad]

[QUOTE=fmolf]
the sad part is that the average stand up guy admires these jerks because of their wealth and position.

What average stand up guy are you talking about. Most average stand up guys I know hate these jerks; you know, the ones with the $200 sunglasses and $100 haircuts who think their stuff don't stink. You want good people? talk to Zito, the late Sonny Hine (RIP), and a few others.

[toussaud]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50710/whitney-will-not-exclude-rachel-alexandra


plan? what plan? I don't know bout no plan

[Cat Thief]

I would be very pessimistic about this whole story. Who knows maybe the owner called and said that in jest, maybe the owner never called at all, what kind of person is this Zayat and why go to the press with this story and I can hardly believe Marylou Whitney does not have more integrity than this. Interested to know how this all plays out.

[toussaud]

I would be very pessimistic about this whole story. Who knows maybe the owner called and said that in jest, maybe the owner never called at all, what kind of person is this Zayat and why go to the press with this story and I can hardly believe Marylou Whitney does not have more integrity than this. Interested to know how this all plays out.
Zayat always has rubbed me the wrong way, ever since that whole maimonides situtation out at del mar.

[SmartyLane]

Whitney is now saying that she never had any plans to try and keep RA out of the race. I would like to believe what she told Lucas about running Luv Gov only if RA wasn't excluded. Zayat now going back on what he said.

Looks like she will be running now.

We all may of gotten a little trigger happy on the whole situation but the thought of this even taking place hit a lot of emotion with people, as we can all tell with the amount of posts on this thread I started this morning.

[SmartyLane]

Lets say she runs for sure along with POTN, PC, MM, MTB, FF.

What would Hull and Big Drama odds be. Might be worth playing big show bets on one or the other??? Thoughts

[toussaud]

i plan on playing Hull. he'll be every bit of 12 to 1 if not higher.

big drama will be around 8 to 1.

[toussaud]

well the viva la revolution against rachael seems all but not, and I have to think alot of it has to do witht he backlash racing fans all across th country have provided.


SI Article, now allen won't block Rachael either. the gunpowder plot is dead

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_layden/05/10/Allen.Preakness/index.html

[Relwob Owner]

well the viva la revolution against rachael seems all but not, and I have to think alot of it has to do witht he backlash racing fans all across th country have provided.


SI Article, now allen won't block Rachael either. the gunpowder plot is dead

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_layden/05/10/Allen.Preakness/index.html


What I find funny is that Zayat went around blabbing about the call....why on earth would he do that? Didnt he realize the backlash it would cause...also, MTB's owner must be pissed at him too....tough crap for them....

[Jinxed]

What gives the right of other owners to "enter more of their horses" to keep RA out? How is this possible? It's already been stated she will run in the Preakness. This story kind of stinks of something illegal. I think it has everything to do with keeping Borel on MTB to be honest.

I'm not understanding I guess why RA has already been declared an entry for the Preakness and now more horses are turning up...explain please.

[toussaud]

i have hard time believing "backlash" is the reason he isn't entering.

wthin a 2 hour time frame, everyone was put in their place, very very quickly.

I want to be a fly on the way to hear the phone call the networks/pimlico sent these people.

[cj]

What gives the right of other owners to "enter more of their horses" to keep RA out? How is this possible? It's already been stated she will run in the Preakness. This story kind of stinks of something illegal. I think it has everything to do with keeping Borel on MTB to be honest.

I'm not understanding I guess why RA has already been declared an entry for the Preakness and now more horses are turning up...explain please.

They were nominated, they can enter. There is nothing illegal. Sporting, probably not, but oh well. What if Mine That Bird had "blocked" a so called "better horse" from running in the Derby? Imagine the outcry.

[cj]

i have hard time believing "backlash" is the reason he isn't entering.

wthin a 2 hour time frame, everyone was put in their place, very very quickly.

I want to be a fly on the way to hear the phone call the networks/pimlico sent these people.

You honestly think the Pimlico or network people have any influence over what these people do with their horses? Wake up man...

[Relwob Owner]

What gives the right of other owners to "enter more of their horses" to keep RA out? How is this possible? It's already been stated she will run in the Preakness. This story kind of stinks of something illegal. I think it has everything to do with keeping Borel on MTB to be honest.

I'm not understanding I guess why RA has already been declared an entry for the Preakness and now more horses are turning up...explain please.


I think the owner admitted keeping Borel was his motivation.

I think an owner entering mulyiple horses is OK and just using the rules that are in place...however, two owners colluding could be a rules violation-dont know.

Entry wise, I believe that a Triple Crown nominated horse would trump RA...I am no expert on this stuff but this is just what I think...

[toussaud]

You honestly think the Pimlico or network people have any influence over what these people do with their horses? Wake up man... no you wake up.

fans sure as hell don't have that much influence. that much has been proven

[joanied]

What I find funny is that Zayat went around blabbing about the call....why on earth would he do that? Didnt he realize the backlash it would cause...also, MTB's owner must be pissed at him too....tough crap for them....

I thought that too...what a dufas!!!
:lol:

[Jinxed]

I think the owner admitted keeping Borel was his motivation.

I think an owner entering mulyiple horses is OK and just using the rules that are in place...however, two owners colluding could be a rules violation-dont know.

Entry wise, I believe that a Triple Crown nominated horse would trump RA...I am no expert on this stuff but this is just what I think...

On the Preakness web site RA is listed as having the 12 post, and the rest of the field is set also. I don't believe they are going to pull her out of that spot. Mine That Bird is listed in the 1 hore, but the 1 and the 12 both have Borel listed as the jockey.. Interesting. Is this all about keeping Borel in MTB? This really sucks for horseracing if what is being said is true. I have lost respect for the owner of MTB. If it wasn't a fluke, they why are they afraid to run against RA?

[joanied]

[QUOTE=sonnyp]

What average stand up guy are you talking about. Most average stand up guys I know hate these jerks; you know, the ones with the $200 sunglasses and $100 haircuts who think their stuff don't stink. You want good people? talk to Zito, the late Sonny Hine (RIP), and a few others.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[ryesteve]

I think this is all talk honestly. On the Preakness web site RA is listed as having the 12 post, and the rest of the field is set also.How can the field be set when entries haven't been drawn yet?

[joanied]

I think this is all talk honestly. On the Preakness web site RA is listed as having the 12 post, and the rest of the field is set also. I don't believe they are going to pull her out of that spot.

The draw for post positions isn't til Wensday :confused:

[Imriledup]

You had the race track actively doing things to ensure that a certain horse gets in.....that isnt allowed and is illegal

I'm not suggesting anything illegal. You must have me confused with another poster.

[joanied]

well the viva la revolution against rachael seems all but not, and I have to think alot of it has to do witht he backlash racing fans all across th country have provided.


SI Article, now allen won't block Rachael either. the gunpowder plot is dead

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_layden/05/10/Allen.Preakness/index.html


"I was hanging out with my girlfriend and riding my Harley around here and I got to thinking about it,'' Allen said. "It just ain't right, and when you do things that ain't right, it'll come back on you."

Ya think?????

nothin' like gettin' caught with yer pants down:D

[cj]

no you wake up.

fans sure as hell don't have that much influence. that much has been proven

Do you honestly think the owner of Mine that Bird would have ANY reason whatsoever to listen to Pimlico? What are the chances they ever run a horse there again? I'm sure the bad press had a lot to do with it, but not any pressure from supposed "powers" of racing...there are none.

[Jinxed]

The draw for post positions isn't til Wensday :confused:

Sorry. I went to the Preakness site and it looked like posts had been drawn. I thought it was strange also. I'm guessing it is just listing it as having 12 horses in the race, so if they want RA out they have to come up with 3 horses to enter. That would suck for horseracing any way you look at it. If MTB isn't a fluke, why would he be afraid of running against the filly...unless it is all about Borel and I think it is. The horse doesn't stand a chance without him. Just my thoughts.

[theveep]

Anyone notice that Alexandra is now being displayed on the homepage of the Preakness as a contender. This wasn't the case this morning. Two spots are still being viewed as open and blank. Any chances that the connections entered this horse, but an official press announcement is still forthcoming? I think the speculation and anticipation alone would warrant the delay of an official statement.

http://www.preakness.com/

Lou

[Canadian]

Good on MTB's owner in admitting he was wrong for even thinking about the idea. He admitted the idea was wrong, he withdrew the plan and now he'll take his shot. I wish them luck.

[joanied]

Sorry. I went to the Preakness site and it looked like posts had been drawn. I thought it was strange also. I'm guessing it is just listing it as having 12 horses in the race, so if they want RA out they have to come up with 3 horses to enter. That would suck for horseracing any way you look at it. If MTB isn't a fluke, why would he be afraid of running against the filly...unless it is all about Borel and I think it is. The horse doesn't stand a chance without him. Just my thoughts.

Good thoughts...and if MTB HAS to have Calvin...then they must not think all that much about their own horse...IMO:)
I can't wait for the Post position draw...hope she draws good:jump:

[joanied]

Good on MTB's owner in admitting he was wrong for even thinking about the idea. He admitted the idea was wrong, he withdrew the plan and now he'll take his shot. I wish them luck.

I realize you are probably a fan of MTB...I think we all like the HORSE...but, sorry, his apology came only because he got caught...every one that gets caught like that says they are sorry...and most often, as in this case, it just don't wash.
:)

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not suggesting anything illegal. You must have me confused with another poster.


No, I dont....here is your post....


Keep in mind that Pimlico really wants her to get in the gate, its going to mean a lot more money for them, bigger attendance, etc.

Pimlico should have Rachel as an also eligible and then one of their vets can scratch some ridiculous horse who just 'happens' to have a cough the morning of the race

You noted that Pimlico has an interest in having RA run....then, you suggested that they shoudl use their vets and their power to scratch a horse who has a "cough"....the quotes imply that the horse doesnt really have a cough and instead is being scratched by the vet to achieve Pimlico's goal of having RA race-so, Pimlico would be using the vet to scratch a longshot for no reason to get RA in and that wouldnt be allowed, I believe... is that clear enough?

[NY BRED]

Thank you Mr.Zayat for confirming my suspicions of the Derby win of
MTB and the ownership of this horse.

Anyone doubt what these two Yuks are capable of after listening to
Mr.Zayat and his discussions with "deep throat ?

Hopefully, the officials will have a wakeup call and:

Suspend the MTB owners and their horse from ther remainingTriple Crown
races.

Take another review of the Derby and dig deeper into the huge
form reversal of ths horse.

Investigate the race records of thoroughbreds that have run in
the names of these owners.

Revise and/or reduce field size for future races and negate such
a possiblity of owner(s) stacking the deck against the competition.

Medication issues and now this revelation further shake the
confidence of the public.

[Relwob Owner]

Thank you Mr.Zayat for confirming my suspicions of the Derby win of
MTB and the ownership of this horse.

Anyone doubt what these two Yuks are capable of after listening to
Mr.Zayat and his discussions with "deep throat ?

Hopefully, the officials will have a wakeup call and:

Suspend the MTB owners and their horse from ther remainingTriple Crown
races.

Take another review of the Derby and dig deeper into the huge
form reversal of ths horse.

Investigate the race records of thoroughbreds that have run in
the names of these owners.

Revise and/or reduce field size for future races and negate such
a possiblity of owner(s) stacking the deck against the competition.

Medication issues and now this revelation further shake the
confidence of the public.

Question for you or anyone else that may know....are there any rules that prevent owners from conspiring with one another to add or subtract horses from a race?

[Relwob Owner]

2 reasons

1. the owner knew good and damn well he wanted to sell the filly or at the very least, he knew it was a distinct posiblity. IF it's a posbility you are going to sell the filly, you pay the nomination to leave the option open for the possible new connections.

2. Options options optons. I had accecpted the fact she wasn't going to run in the derby. but for 600 bucks or even 6,000 dollars, why not keep all your options open? we are talking about 6 grand, in the grand scheme of things, not a lot of money. It's not like they are asking a 10,000 supplimentnal fee


zayat has 22 horses nominated for the TC. he has options.

RA doesn't have ANY options


Good points all around....

[sonnyp]

[QUOTE=fmolf]whatever happened to the gentlemanly sport of kings![/QUOTE


listen....this owner's father admitted in a plea bargain that this man {his son) had paid off a u.s.senator in alaska which put millions of $$$$ in each member of the family's pockets.

why would ANYONE be shocked or surprized at this move? these people have NO scrupples.... a lot of money....thats how they get it...no scrupples.

the illustrious ken ramsey, a few years back, when he was being considered for owner of the year (of all things) pulled the same crap. these are vicious, self centered people who live vicariously through their horses.

real creeps. the sad part is that the average stand up guy admires these jerks because of their wealth and position.

as i stated above, earlier in this thread, ken ramsey, in his quest to be the leading owner, tried to bribe another owner to scratch his horse so that ramsey's would draw into a race from the AE list.

if im not mistaken, i believe ramsey was suspended by the stewards.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=sonnyp]

as i stated above, earlier in this thread, ken ramsey, in his quest to be the leading owner, tried to bribe another owner to scratch his horse so that ramsey's would draw into a race from the AE list.

if im not mistaken, i believe ramsey was suspended by the stewards.



Gotcha...thanks for the info-I would assume there is some anti-trust so of stuff but didnt know.....

It will be interesting to see if anyone talks to the MTB owner about what he did, even after his half assed apology

[PaceAdvantage]

Thank you Mr.Zayat for confirming my suspicions of the Derby win of
MTB and the ownership of this horse.

Anyone doubt what these two Yuks are capable of after listening to
Mr.Zayat and his discussions with "deep throat ?

Hopefully, the officials will have a wakeup call and:

Suspend the MTB owners and their horse from ther remainingTriple Crown
races.

Take another review of the Derby and dig deeper into the huge
form reversal of ths horse.

Investigate the race records of thoroughbreds that have run in
the names of these owners.

Revise and/or reduce field size for future races and negate such
a possiblity of owner(s) stacking the deck against the competition.

Medication issues and now this revelation further shake the
confidence of the public.Man, this thread just goes from bizarre to completely screwy at times.

Whatever happened to "think, then post?"

[bishlap]

it's not race fixing, but it's patheticly unsportsmanlike

I didin't like POTN before today. Now I hope he comes in dead last
I've always had a distaste 4 baffert...add the latest scenario into the mix (I know he's not the owner) and the obnoxious kid, Bode, well....

[WinterTriangle]

Okay. lemme play devil's advocate. Not saying this is my opinion, just was taught in debating class that unless you take the other side, and can argue for it, then you can't fully support your own side:

On the Whitney thing, it's easy to be gracious when it doesn't cost you anything. Luv Gov has about zero chance of winning the race. What if you had a real possible *winner*? Do you think you would withdraw them?

If we're talking ethics, then why is it okay for new owners of RA to essentially "buy" their way into a race?

And, it doesn't matter if Calvin has never rode MTB......tell me if it's common, historically, for a jockey who won the KY Derby on a horse, to get off that horse for another horse? How many times has this happened?

Next:
It's a competition, isn't it?

(I seem to remember Da'Tara being entered in a race last year at the last minute, we were all scrambling to find info.)

IF I was playing tennis doubles, or volley ball, for $1 million----against some really incredible player that might make us lose-----and I had some connections who would get people like Martina Navratilova or Karch Kiraly or Paula Weishoff to play on my team, they'd be in. :)

This is about winning, isn't it? Any horse that has a real chance of winning this thing should be in the race.

[NY BRED]

Question for you or anyone else that may know....are there any rules that prevent owners from conspiring with one another to add or subtract horses from a race?


An owner can include and entry(more than one horse) in a field,
and later scratch if the race doesn't fit the conditions(ie Turf race carded
on the race comes off the grass).

Conspiring with another Owner to create a "winning" scenario for one of the Owners might well occur without our knowledge, but I'm sure the
Stewards would prevent this situation and/or fine/suspend all parties
were they aware of the conspiracy.

I'll attempt to answer the question with respect to rules at NYRA.

[classhandicapper]

I'm kind of on the fence on this one.

From a purely business perspective, I think locking the filly out of the Preakness would be a brilliant financial move. However, considering that almost all the owners lose money, I'm not sure racing should even be considered a business. It's an entertainment sport and most of the owners are in this for reasons other than maximizing their return on invested capital. :lol:

What I think should really happen is the rules need to be adjusted so that no one is ever tempted to do this again. I don't think its right to hold semi-business people to a code that doesn't allow them to profit from bad rules.