Dems question

[Show Me the Wire]

Obama's judgment about his ability to lead. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22246.html

His false senses of his actual abilities is very dangerous and disturbing.

[46zilzal]

Obama's judgment about his ability to lead. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22246.html

His false senses of his actual abilities is very dangerous and disturbing.
His educational background dwarfs most here.

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes most of us were not educated in Indonesia. Maybe that is where he obtained his exagerated sense of abilities.

[46zilzal]

Yes most of us were not educated in Indonesia.
Harvard is in the orient?

It is only graduate education that distinguishes most individuals

[Show Me the Wire]

As I always say about you. You know not of what your speak. But i digress.

[46zilzal]

Saw an interesting interview with Fidel. He opened a drawer and produced about 80 un-cashed checks from the US gubbment: rent on Guantanamo.
He simply stated, it is our land.

[mostpost]

Obama's judgment about his ability to lead. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22246.html

His false senses of his actual abilities is very dangerous and disturbing.
The thread title and subhead are not indicative of the article linked to.
One democratic representative from Hawaii is cited as having concerns about the transfer of prisoners from Guantanamo. This is one item in an almost infinite series of issues. Yet you have turned it into a universal condemnation of the Obama administration among democrats. Believe me we are fine with his ability to lead. We are fine with his policies. And so are almost 70% of the American people.
On the specific issue of Gantanamo, I think Obama needs a more specific plan of action. On the other hand he has set a one year timetable and more details should be forthcoming. And don't fool yourself that Republicans are really concerned about the safety of citizens in areas to which the detainees may be transferred. They are using this as political fodder.

[ezrabrooks]

Harvard is in the orient?

It is only graduate education that distinguishes most individuals


BS..!

[46zilzal]

BS..!
enlighten us with an example. a sports idol perhaps?

[mostpost]

Harvard is in the orient?

It is only graduate education that distinguishes most individuals

Be serious 46. Everyone knows that graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard is not nearly as impressive as graduating 894 of 899 from the Naval Academy (McCain) or attending five colleges in five years (Palin). Or getting into Yale as the result of a legacy (GW Bush), or attending Southeast Missouri State for two semesters and a summer in which "he failed everything including ballroom dancing" according to his mother (Rush).

Calling Obama a "Bumpkin" (SMTW) is beyond bizarre and reflects much more on the maker of the statement than on its object.

In Fairness GW Bush did graduate from Harvard Business School with an MBA. THE HIGHLIGHT OF HIS LIFE. :lol: :lol:

[ezrabrooks]

enlighten us with an example. a sports idol perhaps?

I will take a B.S. in Economics and Sociology from Eureka College any day.

Ez

[46zilzal]

Ever notice that those you condemn education have so little themselves?

[ArlJim78]

great Harvard education ===> community organizer who hates America? :D

all show and no substance if you ask me. bottom line; he's your typical thin-skinned Chicago thug.

[46zilzal]

I will take a B.S. in Economics and Sociology from Eureka College any day.

Ez
How does one get a bachelor of SCIENCE in those disciplines?

[ezrabrooks]

Ever notice that those you condemn education have so little themselves?

I guess my reply went over your graduate degree head..

Ez

[46zilzal]

great Harvard education ===> community organizer who hates America? :D

all show and no substance if you ask me. bottom line; he's your typical thin-skinned Chicago thug.

Following the old FAUX mantra hook, line, and very much sinker

sure you don't want to add
1) He's not a citizen
2) he's a Muslim
3) he cheated at school
4) etc etc

[ArlJim78]

Following the old FAUX mantra hook, line, and very much sinker

sure you don't want to add
1) He's not a citizen
2) he's a Muslim
3) he cheated at school
4) etc etc
don't put words in my mouth. I said what I wanted to say.

I will give him credit though, he has visited all 57 states.

[jballscalls]

don't put words in my mouth. I said what I wanted to say.

I will give him credit though, he has visited all 57 states.

How does Obama hate America?? I dont care for his politics, but i sure dont see that he hates america

[ezrabrooks]

great Harvard education ===> community organizer who hates America? :D

all show and no substance if you ask me. bottom line; he's your typical thin-skinned Chicago thug.

Wish I would have got me one of those advanced degrees...so maybe I could become a picture taker at one of those low tier horse tracks in Canada...

Ez

[newtothegame]

How does Obama hate America?? I dont care for his politics, but i sure dont see that he hates america

I am not sure if he was referring to OBAMA hating america...or harvard putting out community organizers who hate america...But if it were obama he was referring to...I think hate is a strong condemnation. Although everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do think Obama hates the way america is and wishes to change it through his policies though....

[Show Me the Wire]

Be serious 46. Everyone knows that graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard is not nearly as impressive as graduating 894 of 899 from the Naval Academy (McCain) or attending five colleges in five years (Palin). Or getting into Yale as the result of a legacy (GW Bush), or attending Southeast Missouri State for two semesters and a summer in which "he failed everything including ballroom dancing" according to his mother (Rush).

Calling Obama a "Bumpkin" (SMTW) is beyond bizarre and reflects much more on the maker of the statement than on its object.

In Fairness GW Bush did graduate from Harvard Business School with an MBA. THE HIGHLIGHT OF HIS LIFE. :lol: :lol:


Beyond bizarre as calling a sitting President a rutabaga. Do I hear a scathing indictment coming about the reflection making of such beyond bizarre statements by Zilly.

How about Bush being elected President of the U.S. twice as being the highlight :)

My problem does not lie with education, but Obama's belief in his own self-importance.

[ezrabrooks]

How does one get a bachelor of SCIENCE in those disciplines?

Are you sure you want to hang with that one? Jezz...

Ez

[mostpost]

How about Bush being elected President of the U.S. twice as being the highlight

A highlight for him; a lowlight for us.

[Show Me the Wire]

A highlight for him; a lowlight for us.


Maybe not. Without 8 years of Bush, Obama wouldn't have had a clue. Obama demonstrates his dependence on Bush's leadearship everytime he renigs on a campaign promise to embrace a Bush implimented policy. :)

[jballscalls]

Maybe not. Without 8 years of Bush, Obama wouldn't have had a clue. Obama demonstrates his dependence on Bush's leadearship everytime he renigs on a campaign promise to embrace a Bush implimented policy. :)

without 8 years of Bush, there would be no Obama presidency, so bush should get some of the blame for this guy getting elected :)

[Lefty]

46, education and intelligence is not the same thing. Obama has made so many mstks it's almost funny. First, he can hardly put a sentence together without a teleprompter. He announced the closing of gitmo but has no idea where to put the most dangerous men on Earth as no other country wants them. He keeps spending and spending. He is taking over private business'.
He had bombed and killed civilians in a country that's supposed to be an ally. He has completely demoralized and limited the effectiveness of the CIA.
He let Air force one and fighter jets scare the crap out of New yorkers and won't release the pictures but will release pictures of waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques that will put the interrogators in jeapardy. He said Churchill did not torture when Britain beat the hell out of German prisoners. Yet, you guys think he's great.I think, in time, you will change your mind when his policies get into your wallets.
55% of the people think he's spending too much.

[newtothegame]

Yet, you guys think he's great.I think, in time, you will change your mind when his policies get into your wallets.
55% of the people think he's spending too much.

wallets ??? If cap n trade goes through it wont just be wallets he is into...tried education college funds for kids....savings accounts...
I could only hope he would touch the little change in my wallet if this gets through :lol: .

[Lefty]

Yes, new, I know. Conversation I had with a lib buddy at the racebook today. He is retired like me.
Buddy: Obama's sending me $250. i'm sending him a love letter.'
Me: Be sure and send him another when your electricity doubles"
buddy: "Obama hasn't got anything to do with that."
Me: whaat? You ever hear of Cap and Trade, Cap and Trade, Cap and Trade."
Buddy: Silence

[ezrabrooks]

How does one get a bachelor of SCIENCE in those disciplines?

Hey 46? What happened to all of the high handed posts? More evidence of the limitations of an advanced degree. I guess they don't give advanced degrees in common sense.

Ez

[46zilzal]

Hey 46? What happened to all of the high handed posts? More evidence of the limitations of an advanced degree. I guess they don't give advanced degrees in common sense.

Ez
AT MOST major universities a BA is given to theoretical pursuits and a BS to practical pursuits: engineering bacteriology etc.

[Tom]

I guess my reply went over your graduate degree head..

Ez

He graduated shortest in his class! :lol:

[ezrabrooks]

AT MOST major universities a BA is given to theoretical pursuits and a BS to practical pursuits: engineering bacteriology etc.

You were awful quick on the trigger to bash me, to now trying to CYA with "At MOST". BTW, Ronald Reagan graduated from lowly Eureka College, and "MOST" would say he did a pretty good job.

Stick with picture taking, and/or working the starting gate, or what other advanced degree pursuits you are involved.


Ez

[cj's dad]

You are a pompous ass.

Harvard is in the orient?

It is only graduate education that distinguishes most individuals

[46zilzal]

You were awful quick on the trigger to bash me, to now trying to CYA with "At MOST". BTW, Ronald Reagan graduated from lowly Eureka College, and "MOST" would say he did a pretty good job.

Stick with picture taking, and/or working the starting gate, or what other advanced degree pursuits you are involved.


Ez
Little Ronnie? what a dolt

[Tom]

That was a dumb thing to say, 46. The only thing that distinguishes people is their actions.

[Lefty]

46 is well educated...in liberalism. I just don't understand what libs have agains low taxes and defending the country. To be against these things, sounds dumb to me. But then I just graduated from sckool "of hard knocks' not harvard. Yeah!

[Warren Henry]

Harvard is in the orient?

It is only graduate education that distinguishes most individuals


Silly Zilly,

I guess we need a definition of "distinquishes"? There are lots of folks who do not have formal educations much less graduate degrees who have been successful in life.

Did Bill Gates ever finish college? I am under the impression he was too busy becoming the richest man in the world.

[46zilzal]

Silly Zilly,

I guess we need a definition of "distinquishes"? There are lots of folks who do not have formal educations much less graduate degrees who have been successful in life.

Did Bill Gates ever finish college? I am under the impression he was too busy becoming the richest man in the world.
did you miss the word MOST?

[mostpost]

You were awful quick on the trigger to bash me, to now trying to CYA with "At MOST". BTW, Ronald Reagan graduated from lowly Eureka College, and "MOST" would say he did a pretty good job.

Stick with picture taking, and/or working the starting gate, or what other advanced degree pursuits you are involved.


Ez

"MOST" would NOT say that. ;)

[Tom]

Education distinguishes no one.
Education is never an end, never a goal.
Only to those who have one and no clue how to use it.
Hint - bragging about it on horse boards does not count. :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Be serious 46. Everyone knows that graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard is not nearly as impressive as graduating 894 of 899 from the Naval Academy (McCain) or attending five colleges in five years (Palin). Or getting into Yale as the result of a legacy (GW Bush), or attending Southeast Missouri State for two semesters and a summer in which "he failed everything including ballroom dancing" according to his mother (Rush).

Calling Obama a "Bumpkin" (SMTW) is beyond bizarre and reflects much more on the maker of the statement than on its object.

In Fairness GW Bush did graduate from Harvard Business School with an MBA. THE HIGHLIGHT OF HIS LIFE. :lol: :lol:

Sort of interesting no one wants to go near this post. And the one person that did, didn't address any of the points you made. Wonder why.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sort of interesting no one wants to go near this post. And the one person that did, didn't address any of the points you made. Wonder why.The way I read it, every reply since has basically addressed what was in mostpost's reply.

[Dahoss9698]

The way I read it, every reply since has basically addressed what was in mostpost's reply.

Gee, there's a surprise. Are your eyes open when you are reading these posts?

[lsbets]

The way I read it, every reply since has basically addressed what was in mostpost's reply.

PA, you have to understand - these Obama diehards aren't too bright.

[PaceAdvantage]

Gee, there's a surprise. Are your eyes open when you are reading these posts?Completely. Many replies post-mostpost were addressing the topic of intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment, which was the point of mostpost, was it not?

[Dahoss9698]

Completely. Many replies post-mostpost were addressing the topic of intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment, which was the point of mostpost, was it not?

You went from every to many. Maybe after you read it again it will change. Give it another shot.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, you have to understand - these Obama diehards aren't too bright.They're simply acting like anyone else sold a bill of goods...first reaction, I believe, is denial...

[PaceAdvantage]

You went from every to many. Maybe after you read it again it will change. Give it another shot.Every would have been the wrong word to use. And who knew you had the F5 key taped down on your keyboard?

Maybe you can tell me why you think all but one of the follow-ups do not in any way address any of the points raised in mostpost's reply? Perhaps we should go through them one by one...you seem like a guy who loves getting into the minutiae of things...

[Warren Henry]

did you miss the word MOST?

By saying MOST, you are able to duck any criticism. Typical liberal.

Man up (oops, forgot, liberals not too good at that either).

[Dahoss9698]

Every would have been the wrong word to use. And who knew you had the F5 key taped down on your keyboard?

Maybe you can tell me why you think all but one of the follow-ups do not in any way address any of the points raised in mostpost's reply? Perhaps we should go through them one by one...you seem like a guy who loves getting into the minutiae of things...

Blah,blah, blah. The posts are all right there. I don't need to go through them one by one. Maybe you're right....after all, your initial reactions have been pretty spot on this week anyway. Oh wait...

[PaceAdvantage]

If you're trying to goad me into banning you, it won't work.

[PaceAdvantage]

after all, your initial reactions have been pretty spot on this week anyway. Oh wait...What reaction would that be? That Calvin won't get the call on Rachel?

Like you thought he would?

[Dahoss9698]

Nah, I kind of like having you follow me around now. Very amusing.

[Dahoss9698]

What reaction would that be? That Calvin won't get the call on Rachel?

Like you thought he would?

No need to play dumb.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, like I NEVER post in off-topic threads...:lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Yeah, like I NEVER post in off-topic threads...:lol:

Again...no need to play dumb.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know, I know, I'm on your shit list because your most recent nemesis is still alive and kicking...

[Dahoss9698]

Yeah that's it. Right again. Nothing gets past you. :rolleyes:

[mostpost]

Completely. Many replies post-mostpost were addressing the topic of intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment, which was the point of mostpost, was it not?

The point was that dummies don't graduate Magna Cum Laude from Harvard School of Law. And geniuses don't attend five colleges in five years.

As far as intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment; if you can't see Obama's intelligence, that seriously calls yours' into question. His intelligence led to his succcessful education; his successful education led to his successful accomplishments. And all will lead to his success in the future.

Whether you think so or not.

[Tom]

I can understand why there some confusion about Mostpost's point....he didn't have one!

[JustRalph]

T his successful education led to his successful accomplishments.

You wanna post a list of those successful accomplishments?

Btw, there is a 10,000 character limit in a normal post. Feel free to use two

[ezrabrooks]

The point was that dummies don't graduate Magna Cum Laude from Harvard School of Law. And geniuses don't attend five colleges in five years.

As far as intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment; if you can't see Obama's intelligence, that seriously calls yours' into question. His intelligence led to his succcessful education; his successful education led to his successful accomplishments. And all will lead to his success in the future.

Whether you think so or not.

Successful accomplishments? Is that like never cashing anything but a green check?

Ez

[Lefty]

most, the highlight of GW's life is getting elected twice when the media was totally against him. With all the namecalling and criticism he received, he flummoxed the dims at every turn, and amongst their public protests, kept this country safe for 7 yrs. That's a highlight any pres could be proud of. BTw, he never whined, never blamed the prev admin nor the biased media. That's a man!

[mostpost]

You wanna post a list of those successful accomplishments?

Btw, there is a 10,000 character limit in a normal post. Feel free to use two
Tax cuts
$282 BILLION IN Tax relief most for working families. 95%
Expanded tax credits for college tuition
Expanded Earned income tas credit for low income families with three or more children.
Sales tax on new cars now tax deductible
Increased first time home buyer tax credit to $8,000
Increased the number of middle income Americans who do NOT have to pay the alternative minimum tax

Health care
Extended SCHIP to 4 million additional children
Provided $87 billion to protect against state budget shortfalls in Medicaid and SCHIP
Provided investments in health care modernization, community health centers and health care research.
Created a White House office of Health Care Reform with the goal of expanding health care coverage.

Housing
Began a foreclosure prevention package that helps 9 million homeowners obtain better mortgage terms. It allows 5 million homeowners to refinance to cheaper mortgages and invested $75 billion to keep up to 4 million homeowners out of foreclosure.
Since the announcement of these plans, rates on a 30 year mortgage have dropped to 4.78% and refinancing applications are up 88%.
Education
Provided $53.6 billion to states and school districts to prevent layoffs and provide critical services. Invested in support for educating at risk students and those with special needs
Invested in Head Start and Early Head Start providing services for approximately 120,00 additional infants and children
Increased the maximum award for Pell Grants and increased college affordability for more than 7 million students

Clean Energy
Provided financial support for alternative energy companies, renewable energy credits and research and development of alternative energy sources.
Supported local energy efficiency and conservation projects.

Fair Pay
Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. (Look it up)

Iraq
Is in the process of ending our involvement and shifting focus to Afghanistan.
Have I used my two characters yet? I have more :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tom]

In other words, he increased entitlements to those do no produce by stealing from the children of those who do.

He has created a national debt that will surely destroy us and can never be paid back.

He has decreased our national security to pre-9-11 days

[mostpost]

You wanna post a list of those successful accomplishments?

Btw, there is a 10,000 character limit in a normal post. Feel free to use two

Graduate of Columbia University

Magna Cum Laude Graduate of Harvard Law School

First African American president of the Harvard Law Review

Civil Rights attorney in Chicago

Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School

Served three terms in the Illinois Senate

Worked at the Business International Corporation and New York Public Interest Research Group

Hired as a director for the Developing Communities Project. During his three years as director he
increased its staff from one to thirteen and its annual budget from $70,00 to $400,000

Helped set up job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants rights organization.

Wrote “Dreams From My Father” and “The Audacity of Hope”

Elected to the United States Senate

Gave the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention

Served on Senate committees for Foreign Relations, Environment and Public Works, Veterans Affairs, Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, and Government Affairs.

Served as chairman of the Senate subcommittee on European Affairs

Elected the irst African American President of the United States

[mostpost]

You wanna post a list of those successful accomplishments?

Btw, there is a 10,000 character limit in a normal post. Feel free to use two

Oh Yeah, He is correcting the mistakes of George W. Bush. A work in progress
which even he may not finish.

[mostpost]

In other words, he increased entitlements to those do no produce by stealing from the children of those who do.

He has created a national debt that will surely destroy us and can never be paid back.

He has decreased our national security to pre-9-11 days

Only in your tiny and increasingly out of touch world, my fren :D

[Lefty]

most, what did Tom get wrong? how can he be out of touch when he's right. Obama has increased the national debt to the point that our great grandchildren will be in debt when they're born.
He has decreased spending on weapons and the missile shield prgms and the military.
He has increased entitlements. Plus Cap And Trade will increase energy costs.
He pledged no more entitlements, then turned around and signed a yearly budget that has between 8 and 9,000 of them.
So if you think this ain't ahappenin, then you're in denial.

[Tom]

Coming out Monday - announcement of something around 60 million in new taxes.

And don't forget theses coming.....

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/obamas-budget-a.html

[Marshall Bennett]

most, what did Tom get wrong? how can he be out of touch when he's right. Obama has increased the national debt to the point that our great grandchildren will be in debt when they're born.
He has decreased spending on weapons and the missile shield prgms and the military.
He has increased entitlements. Plus Cap And Trade will increase energy costs.
He pledged no more entitlements, then turned around and signed a yearly budget that has between 8 and 9,000 of them.
So if you think this ain't ahappenin, then you're in denial.
Obama is buying his place in history as a hero . However , future generations will view him as one that sold their American dream short . Frankly , I think he's self-centered . He wants to be all he can be at everyone's expense .

[delayjf]

Or getting into Yale as the result of a legacy (GW Bush),

Or getting into Harvard as a result of affirmative action.
According to an article I read today, 91% of Harvard Graduates graduated with honors.

or attending Southeast Missouri State for two semesters and a summer in which "he failed everything including ballroom dancing" according to his mother (Rush).
Yet Rush has achieved more than MOST.

Education is no guarantee of success nor is it the most important quality of a leader. Hell look at Wall Street, how many MBAs did it take to bring down AIG, Merrill Lynch, etc.

[delayjf]

Hired as a director for the Developing Communities Project. During his three years as director he
increased its staff from one to thirteen and its annual budget from $70,00 to $400,000

I got to give credit were credit is due, no doubt Obama's ability to grow a buracracy is second to none. In this endeavor I have no doubt he will suceed.

[mostpost]

most, what did Tom get wrong? how can he be out of touch when he's right. Obama has increased the national debt to the point that our great grandchildren will be in debt when they're born.
He has decreased spending on weapons and the missile shield prgms and the military.
He has increased entitlements. Plus Cap And Trade will increase energy costs.
He pledged no more entitlements, then turned around and signed a yearly budget that has between 8 and 9,000 of them.
So if you think this ain't ahappenin, then you're in denial.

Much of the increase in the National Debt can be laid at the feet of the previous administration and the need to fix problems they created. For instance, Bush cut taxes. He did not make corresponding cuts to the major entitlement programs. Thus the deficit increased. Worse yet, in order to maintain the deficit as low as possible, Bush neglected needed infrastructure repair and replacement. Our roads are crumbling, our bridges need repair, our schools are falling apart and issues in our electricity grid must be addressed.

Obama has put the cost of the war(s) back on budget. If Bush had had the courage to do this, the deficit now would have been much higher. Obama made the tough decision even though he knew he would take the flak.

Under Obama the deficit as a percentage of GDP decreases from 12.3 % in 2009 to 3.5% in 2012

The 2010 defense budget is 4% higher than last year. Emphasis is on programs to help in the problems we face now. Programs like the F-22 have been curtailed because they have no use in today's conflicts. The so-called star wars or star shield has shown no signs of being a viable defense against a threat that doesn't exist right now. Other programs are being curtailed, but less expensive, yet effective alternatives are being put in place.

[mostpost]

Yet Rush has achieved more than MOST.
[QUOTE]

What has he done? He has a radio show. This benefits him. Nothing about it benefits anyone except him (And the few people that work for him.) The ability to bluster and obfuscate is not what I would consider an achievement.
If you put him on the street without an assistant, I doubt if he'd know how to cross the street. He invented nothing. He produces nothing. He provides miniscule employment. He is a success only in his own life. He has contributed nothing to society. He is selfish, self-centered, pompous, arrogant...I'd better stop before I say something bad.

[mostpost]

Or getting into Harvard as a result of affirmative action.
According to an article I read today, 91% of Harvard Graduates graduated with honors.

What article? Harvard Law School designates only the top 10% of graduates as Magna Cum Laude. And only one person can be President of Law Review.
And it is NOT an affirmative action position.

[Tom]

Yet Rush has achieved more than MOST.
[QUOTE]

What has he done? He has a radio show. This benefits him. Nothing about it benefits anyone except him (And the few people that work for him.) The ability to bluster and obfuscate is not what I would consider an achievement.
If you put him on the street without an assistant, I doubt if he'd know how to cross the street. He invented nothing. He produces nothing. He provides miniscule employment. He is a success only in his own life. He has contributed nothing to society. He is selfish, self-centered, pompous, arrogant...I'd better stop before I say something bad.

It benefits the general public as well. You get stuff from Rush, Beck, et al that the MSM will not cover. While being entertainment programs, you get more real news from them than you do from a sham like CNN or MSNBC. Also, thier shows generate revenue for statiions across the country, stations that create jobs, report news, help the economy, help society.

[Tom]

.

What article? Harvard Law School designates only the top 10% of graduates as Magna Cum Laude. And only one person can be President of Law Review.
And it is NOT an affirmative action position.

Where are his college papers? Why are they hidden?
And come on, in Illinois, a position being handed out as a favor......not out of the realm of possibility, now is it? The most corrupt area of the country. A Dem den of corruption for decades?

Your argument could be used for JFK, and my rebuttal, too. You think JFK wins with out the underhanded tactics of the Chicago Daley machine and the mob?
JFK was put in office not by the voters, but by the manipulators.

[exactaplayer]

Please do not criticize Rush, he is doing more for the Democratic party then anyone in the msm. Carry on Rush, carry on.

[mostpost]

Where are his college papers? Why are they hidden?
And come on, in Illinois, a position being handed out as a favor......not out of the realm of possibility, now is it? The most corrupt area of the country. A Dem den of corruption for decades?

Your argument could be used for JFK, and my rebuttal, too. You think JFK wins with out the underhanded tactics of the Chicago Daley machine and the mob?
JFK was put in office not by the voters, but by the manipulators.

The popular perception that Kennedy won the 1960 election because of shenanigans by the Chicago Machine is incorrect. The final count on Electoral votes was Kennedy 303 Nixon 219. Illinois had 27 electoral votes. Even were you to take 27 from Kennedy and give them to Nixon the total would still be 276 to 246 in favor of Kennedy. Now if you are asking me if Daley cooked the election I have to say, "I am shocked...SHOCKED...to find there is gambling...I mean vote fraud... going on in this establishment."
Another thing here is Dupage County. DuPage county is directly west of Chicago and Cook County. DuPage County at the time was heavily Republican and considered as corrupt as Cook county.

I don't know why Obama won't release his college transcripts. I wish he would. But to suggest that Harvard, which is in Massachusetts, would hand a position as President Of Law Review to Obama as a favor to (?) doesn't really pass muster. First of all, why would anyone at Harvard care. Secondly, why would Daley get involved. He may have known who Obama was, but it wasn't until much later that Obama became even moderately well known.
Information on the 1960 Presidential election at
www.uselectionatlas.org

[delayjf]

And it is NOT an affirmative action position.

The article was by Walter E. Williams, it dealt with issue of grade inflation amoung the Universities including Harvard - some of the things he points out in the article about Harvard (not Harvard Law School)
50% of all grades handed out were either A, or A-. Up from 22% in 1966.
91% of seniors graduated with honors.

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2009/05/06/fraud_in_academia

Granted, Obama's time at Harvard preceded the statistics cited in the article, but it still raises some doubt. And I will give Obama credit for doing well once in Harvard, but that doesn't explain to me how anybody can get accepted into Harvard Law School without graduating with honor in undergrad. Without knowing what was his GPA / LSAT scores were at Columbia the most plausible answer is Affirmative Action.

that Harvard, which is in Massachusetts, would hand a position as President Of Law Review to Obama as a favor to (?) doesn't really pass muster
I maybe wrong but I don't believe one is appointed but rather is elected by I believe the other 80 or so students on Law review to that position.

[delayjf]

Much of the increase in the National Debt can be laid at the feet of the previous administration and the need to fix problems they created. For instance, Bush cut taxes. He did not make corresponding cuts to the major entitlement programs. Thus the deficit increased. Worse yet, in order to maintain the deficit as low as possible, Bush neglected needed infrastructure repair and replacement. Our roads are crumbling, our bridges need repair, our schools are falling apart and issues in our electricity grid must be addressed.

The Bush Tax cuts got this country out of a recession and lead to record tax revenues.

He did not make corresponding cuts to the major entitlement programs. Thus the deficit increased.
Agreed, but had he not advocated some kind of Prescription drug program he never would have been elected, Gore would have won and implemented a drug benefit program much more robust the President Bush's. Now, do you think Obama will be cutting any entitlement programs??? Which one, if anything entitlement spending is going through the roof (universal healthcare).
Under Obama the deficit as a percentage of GDP decreases from 12.3 % in 2009 to 3.5% in 2012
Based on what - The most optimist economic scenario with the economy doing a complete flip. Can you tell me when tax increases implemented during a recession ever led to economic prosperity?

[Tom]

Please do not criticize Rush, he is doing more for the Democratic party then anyone in the msm. Carry on Rush, carry on.

:lol::lol:You think all those viewers are DEMS? :lol::lol:

[Lefty]

Like Tom said, Rush, Beck and Hannity bring things to the forefront that the mainstream media neglects to mention. Exacta player, yep, Rush helped Clinton a lot by helping get the 94 congress elected that pushed for welfare reform and Clinton had to sign it. The pushed for the balanced budget that Clinton only talked about and Clinton had to sign it. Then Clinton took all the credit and once again the mainstream media wenrt along with him. Methinks Rush will do the same for Obama in 2010.
mostpost, Rush does his bit for private enterprise and the economy. How? Well he has a big audience. Big audience=sponsers+audience buys from sponsors= jobs because sponsers employ workers=good for economy.
Remember Snapple? They started as a 2 man business. They advertised on Rush's show and their business boomed through the roof. They ended up selling out to Nestle for millions.
BTW, how much do you think Rush would make if he had an audience the size of, say, Air America.
Rush can't raise our taxes, he can't make laws detrimental to us. Obama and Congress can.
So we sut down our missile shield program which has been tested successfully, and wait for a nuclear attack, the we reinstate it? I feel better now...

[PaceAdvantage]

As far as intelligence vs. education vs. accomplishment; if you can't see Obama's intelligence, that seriously calls yours' into question. His intelligence led to his succcessful education; his successful education led to his successful accomplishments. And all will lead to his success in the future.

Whether you think so or not.Now why would you go and do something so stupid as to write that I can't see Obama's intelligence? Please, point to me where I have called his intelligence into question...and please do it now....oh...that's right, you can't!

I can call up numerous posts where I COMPLEMENT HIM ON HIS OBVIOUS INTELLIGENCE....

But you, for some reason, simply ASSUME that I have at one time or another called his intelligence into question, or simply thought he had no intelligence, or whatever other foolishness you assume because you THINK you know me or how I think or what I believe...

You Obama defenders / apologists are getting sloppy. Pelosi is getting sloppy. This whole "Democrat Renaissance" is getting ricketier by the moment.



PS. I'm hurt that you obviously do NOT read my posts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Much of the increase in the National Debt can be laid at the feet of the previous administration and the need to fix problems they created.Now that's some bullshit that I don't even think YOU truly believe.

There is absolutely NO WAY on God's green Earth that Obama needs to spend THIS MUCH to fix anything. No way...he and Democrats are spending this much because it's EASY to do at this moment in history, given all the apologists and defenders such as yourself that provide the wind for his spending sails.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yet Rush has achieved more than MOST.
[QUOTE]

What has he done? He has a radio show. This benefits him. Nothing about it benefits anyone except him (And the few people that work for him.) The ability to bluster and obfuscate is not what I would consider an achievement.
If you put him on the street without an assistant, I doubt if he'd know how to cross the street. He invented nothing. He produces nothing. He provides miniscule employment. He is a success only in his own life. He has contributed nothing to society. He is selfish, self-centered, pompous, arrogant...I'd better stop before I say something bad.You just described all of Hollywood.

[PaceAdvantage]

Please do not criticize Rush, he is doing more for the Democratic party then anyone in the msm. Carry on Rush, carry on.If you're relying on him to benefit your party, then Democrats are in much more trouble than I ever dreamed...no wonder hcap's graph shows such a loss when it comes to folks identifying as Democrats...they lost a higher percentage than Republicans in the last five months...wonder why?

[hcap]

.no wonder hcap's graph shows such a loss when it comes to folks identifying as Democrats...they lost a higher percentage than Republicans in the last five months...wonder why?Over the last 5 months both parties lost the same percentage. Over the last few years you repugs are in the toilet big time. It amazes me how you lose track of the simple things.
Like who-the left or right-dominates off topic.

[exactaplayer]

If you're relying on him to benefit your party, then Democrats are in much more trouble than I ever dreamed...no wonder hcap's graph shows such a loss when it comes to folks identifying as Democrats...they lost a higher percentage than Republicans in the last five months...wonder why?
I am not relying on him to benefit the Democratic party. I am just enjoying watching him drive more and more moderates out of the Republican party. Rush and the base = about 20 percent. This does not win many elections.

[hcap]

Not good for the Party of Reagan.

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/363/House_Control_1969_2009.PNG

[Tom]

hcap, if the right dominates here, then it is only your fault be being non-productive. Oh, wait that is the definition of a lib!

Maybe Obama will give you a bail out and have some of his community organizers post here. Oh, wait again.....they already are! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Over the last 5 months both parties lost the same percentage.You made this mistake earlier. Check your graph again. You're wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am not relying on him to benefit the Democratic party. I am just enjoying watching him drive more and more moderates out of the Republican party. Rush and the base = about 20 percent. This does not win many elections.So now you're relying on independents?

[Lefty]

exacta, moderates do not win elections. If the Republican party needs to get back to strict conservatism. Specter was wrong about the R's going to far right, they're leaning too far left. Maybe only 20% of the people identify themselves as Repubs, but in that same poll 55% identified themselves as conservatives.

[ArlJim78]

look out! the moderates are revolting.:lol:

actually the polling since the election has taken a sharp turn toward Republicans
http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/05/11/rasmussen-and-the-quietly-rusting-democratic-advantage/

the biggest move is on taxes and national security.
see the link for details.

[PaceAdvantage]

Interesting data Jim...I'm sure hcap would never have posted it....:lol:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/RustingDems.gif (http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/05/11/rasmussen-and-the-quietly-rusting-democratic-advantage/)

[hcap]

Over the last 5 months both parties lost the same percentage.
You made this mistake earlier. Check your graph again. You're wrong.


http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/pew-stats-blog.jpg

Ok,

Numbers show a wash over the last 5 months.
Percentage wise

Repugs 26/22 = lost 4
Dems 39/33 = lost 6

Repugs 4/26 = 15.4%
Dems 6/39 = 15.4%

Originally Posted by Me
More importantly long term trends favor the Dems.
That's why you lost in 2006 and 2008.

[hcap]

Not QUITE extinct.
Yet. :D


http://www.bartcop.com/gop-happenin.jpg

[hcap]

As far as independents leaving the repugs.

Here is the latest. Explains why Obama won in 2008, and where independents stand now.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/adqv3bc8oeqcdwuqkxoe3w.gif

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/pew-stats-blog.jpg

Ok,

Numbers show a wash over the last 5 months.
Percentage wise

Repugs 26/22 = lost 4
Dems 39/33 = lost 6

Repugs 4/26 = 15.4%
Dems 6/39 = 15.4%Yup...my mistake...I will scold myself:

"PA, YOU WERE WRONG AGAIN! GO BACK AND LOOK AT YOUR NUMBERS!"

Yup...I was wrong on that one..they both lost the same percentage....

Now, why would that be? Shouldn't the Dems be INCREASING or at least MAINTAINING? Why would they be LOSING to the IND?

I thought Dems were the most popular group on the planet...they rule Congress, they rule governorships, they rule New England...yet folks are abandoning the ship...

Is it kind of like the stock market? Buy the rumor, sell the news?

And where the hell is ddog? Did he tire of telling us all how right he is?

[hcap]

hcap, if the right dominates here, then it is only your fault be being non-productive. Oh, wait that is the definition of a lib!

Maybe Obama will give you a bail out and have some of his community organizers post here. Oh, wait again.....they already are! :lol:How can I be productive? You know the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" ...

Well you gentlemen were shown the watering hole.

On the 'The Reality of Islam' thread alone I wound up arguing against witchcraft. :rolleyes: Kind of difficult being productive when some of you righties still think 1685 was a very good year.

[hcap]

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/3/GOP_in_target.jpg


Although the right wing DOES dominate here, the rest of the world???

Get 'em while their hot!

[Tom]

I want results, not excuses!!!!! :D

[hcap]

Then don't buy the above sign.

[hcap]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118528/GOP-Losses-Span-Nearly-Demographic-Groups.aspx


GOP Losses Span Nearly All Demographic Groups
Only frequent churchgoers show no decline in support since 2001
by Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- The decline in Republican Party affiliation among Americans in recent years is well documented, but a Gallup analysis now shows that this movement away from the GOP has occurred among nearly every major demographic subgroup. Since the first year of George W. Bush's presidency in 2001, the Republican Party has maintained its support only among frequent churchgoers, with conservatives and senior citizens showing minimal decline.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/tsv7ekhtmkmkzrt5kcyt_g.gif


In 2001, voters were 33% Democratic, 32% Republican, and 34% independent, with a Republican edge of 47%-46% after leaners were pushed. But now, it's 36% Democrats, 27% Republicans and 37% independents, with a huge Democratic advantage of 52%-37% with leaners.

Have fun guys. Your solution is obviously to round up every single weekly church goer and get 'em to to the voting booth on time in 2012.

Looks like you guys gained among the conservative base by one point.
WHOOPEEDEEDOO!!!!
YEEHAW!!!!!!

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, I'm kind of glad this year's Triple Crown has reinvigorated the horse-racing side of things here...because this political bullshit has really started to bore the living shit out of me...hcap tops the list with yet another post entitled
"hey, nobody likes Republicans anymore...." :sleeping:

[hcap]

Off course your tired. You have lost these debates. Including your contention about how the "left has dominated".

Would make anybody turn to other less taxing endeavors.

[PaceAdvantage]

Off course your tired. You have lost these debates. Including your contention about how the "left has dominated".

Would make anybody turn to other less taxing endeavors.I never used the word tired. Interesting that you would substitute that for the actual word I used: BORED.

You, as an opponent, bore me. There is no debate here, thus I have lost nothing. You aren't debating, you are spamming. And yes, I have proven numerous times, even with hard numerical evidence, that the left dominated off-topic during the Bush years. It couldn't even be possible to have it any other way, for to have the "right dominate," that would have meant the right had many things to cheer about during the Bush years...

They didn't...so how could they have possibly dominated? They didn't. They were on the defensive. If you are on the defensive, you can't dominate. It's a physical impossibility.

So stop your zillyness.

[Marshall Bennett]

Lately I've been posting more and more on horseracing for the simple fact that its so much more educational . I have a lot to learn about horseracing and there is no better place . On the other hand , off-topic is so routine . hcap for instance has his concrete liberal ideas and beliefs , regardless what you post he'll never budge from them . I'd rather be increasing my knowledge elsewhere than constantly bouncing useful insight off his hard head , and several others with a simular mindset . Its a complete waste of time and I'm not getting any younger .

[hcap]

I never used the word tired. Interesting that you would substitute that for the actual word I used: BORED.

You, as an opponent, bore me.
Maybe I bore you, but I also have gotten the best of you frequently. BTW, most of the views you gentleman babble on and on about are boring as well.

There is no debate here, thus I have lost nothing. You aren't debating, you are spamming. Spamming? And when the right here enters into one of their endless high-fiveing support group threads dissing the left in 4 part harmony, I suppose thats not spamming?
And yes, I have proven numerous times, even with hard numerical evidence, that the left dominated off-topic during the Bush years. It couldn't even be possible to have it any other way, for to have the "right dominate," that would have meant the right had many things to cheer about during the Bush years...

They didn't...so how could they have possibly dominated? They didn't. They were on the defensive. If you are on the defensive, you can't dominate. It's a physical impossibility. Now you have really lost it. Anybody can go back to any point in time in off topic and see the right posting at least 2 to 1 in most threads. Most anti-Obama bullshit threads running recently run somewhere wround 5 to 1. Some are ALL nothing but right wing rants.

So stop your zillyness.You are whistling past the conservative/repug dusty graveyard out there. Still thinking the right here is still alive in some sort of meaningful way out there in the real world.

[Lefty]

The right is still alive in the real world. The polling shows that 55% of the people identify themselves as conservatives. The polling shows Harry Reid in trouble in NV in 2010. We shall overcome socialism.

[Lefty]

BTW, recent polls have also shown the Prolife position has grown to 51%. A clear shift to the right.

[hcap]

The right is still alive in the real world. The polling shows that 55% of the people identify themselves as conservatives. The polling shows Harry Reid in trouble in NV in 2010. We shall overcome socialism.What poll is that Lefty?

We shall overcome socialism sounds like a Pete Seeger song written after he was mugged by some rabid do-gooders :cool:

[Lefty]

I blve it was a Rasmussen poll. I'll write the lyrics and sing it myself. I don't need Pete Seeger. The tide for national will shift too, when people realize they will have pay for part of it by being taxed on their private healthcare.

[Lefty]

also, what about the teaparties? Another sign of a right shift. It wasn't all R's at those deals. So that's the real world h'cap, not your world of an unchallenged messiah come to bring us into a Socialist Utopia, all paid for by the rich

[hcap]

So where's the link?

Meanwhile read it and weep. My post above # 106. Notice I included a link?
Teaparties are about as representative of American sentiments as Limpbag, Coulter and Mista 18%-Darth Cheney

[Lefty]

The polls were on tv news. I have a brain, I don't need a link for everything, you're welcome to find a ramussen poll that proves me wrong. And not one from 2 yrs ago, one no longer than a month. Hop to it, skippy.

[Lefty]

http://conservative247.org/national-politics/561/battleground-poll-majority-consider-themselves-conservative.html

hcap, took pity on ya. here's your link.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hcap, did you gloss over this little ditty from the other day? I can't remember you addressing it directly....I think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/RustingDems.gif (http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/05/11/rasmussen-and-the-quietly-rusting-democratic-advantage/)

[hcap]

http://conservative247.org/national-politics/561/battleground-poll-majority-consider-themselves-conservative.html

hcap, took pity on ya. here's your link.Ok, I didn't think you would.

Looks like this was taken before the election. The only poll to show this. An outlier.
Battleground poll - majority consider themselves conservative
October 13, 2008 · Written by Steve M
Meanwhile something more recent. From 4/09. This Washington Post poll found that only 21 percent self-identify as Republicans. Looks like the GOP is shrinking to the point of irrelevance. Ok this is repubs and the other poll talked about conservatives. Are you saying conservatives did not vote republican in the last election?

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/shrinkinggop.jpg

Hcap, did you gloss over this little ditty from the other day? I can't remember you addressing it directly....I think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle:
1-Rasmussen tends to be a house organ of the republicans.
2-Their automated telephone polling is less reliable than Pew or Gallup.
3-The Poll from Gallup I posted contradicts Rasmussen.

Gallup. My post # 106...

PRINCETON, NJ -- The decline in Republican Party affiliation among Americans in recent years is well documented, but a Gallup analysis now shows that this movement away from the GOP has occurred among nearly every major demographic subgroup. Since the first year of George W. Bush's presidency in 2001, the Republican Party has maintained its support only among frequent churchgoers, with conservatives and senior citizens showing minimal decline.

In 2001, voters were 33% Democratic, 32% Republican, and 34% independent, with a Republican edge of 47%-46% after leaners were pushed. But now, it's 36% Democrats, 27% Republicans and 37% independents, with a huge Democratic advantage of 52%-37% with leaners.

[hcap]

BTW, recent polls have also shown the Prolife position has grown to 51%. A clear shift to the right.Yeah, I saw that one also.
A lot has to do with how the poll questions are worded. A new CNN poll.
They phrase the question "do you want to see Roe vs. Wade overturned?"

30% said “yes”
68% said “no.”


The polling shows Harry Reid in trouble in NV in 2010. We shall overcome socialism.
"MN-SEN: New Rasmussen Poll Says MN Voters Want Norm To Give It Up.

Rasmussen released a poll today on the 2008 Minnesota Senate race. 54% of Minnesota voters want Coleman to concede, while 41% want Coleman to fight on"

I think we shall overcome at least your version is to say the least, premature.

[Lefty]

Isee, hcap, only the polls YOU present are worded correctly, uh huh....
BTW, Rasmussen is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, pollsters in the business.

[Lefty]

hcap, if you're going to quotew me, please be honest enough to use my full quote. I know the dim playbook says, "take your adversaries out of context whenever possible"
Anyway, I did not say 'we shall overcome'
I said, "We shall overcome Socialism"

BTW, Don't you realize how silly, how stupid, how wrong, your Monica Gooding quote is?
We did not serve Bush, He served us.

[hcap]

Your poll from Rasmussen is older. And may not carry as much importance due to the reasons I mentioned.


1-Rasmussen tends to be a house organ of the republicans.
2-Their automated telephone polling is less reliable than Pew or Gallup.
3-The Poll from Gallup I posted contradicts Rasmussen.

I got the 'we shall overcome', "We shall overcome Socialism".
I did say.....at least your version is to say the least, premature.

http://people-press.org/report/517/political-values-and-core-attitudes

"Independents Take Center Stage in Obama Era
Trends in Political Values and Core Attitudes: 1987-2009

"Centrism has emerged as a dominant factor in public opinion as the Obama era begins. The political values and core attitudes that the Pew Research Center has monitored since 1987 show little overall ideological movement. Republicans and Democrats are even more divided than in the past, while the growing political middle is steadfastly mixed in its beliefs about government, the free market and other values that underlie views on contemporary issues and policies. Nor are there indications of a continuation of the partisan realignment that began in the Bush years. Both political parties have lost adherents since the election and an increasing number of Americans identify as independents.

Another (interactive) polling graph shows your predicament.

http://people-press.org/party-identification-trend/

[cj's dad]

hcap, if you're going to quotew me, please be honest enough to use my full quote. I know the dim playbook says, "take your adversaries out of context whenever possible"
Anyway, I did not say 'we shall overcome'
I said, "We shall overcome Socialism"

BTW, Don't you realize how silly, how stupid, how wrong, your Monica Gooding quote is?
We did not serve Bush, He served us.

I would much rather quote Rodney Dangerfield than a political hack like Monica Goodling. At least he is trying to be funny.

[Tom]

I usually get a good chuckle out of hcap's posts......:D

[Marshall Bennett]

I usually get a good chuckle out of hcap's posts......:D
Yeah , like a broken record .

[Lefty]

h'cap, obama is hardly a centrist. He is a pure socialist.

[jballscalls]

h'cap, obama is hardly a centrist. He is a pure socialist.

He is anti gay marriage, thats pretty centrist/right of him LOL

[hcap]

The party of Lincoln is a'sinkin'.....

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/cs_20090523_2195.php

For GOP, A Southern Exposure
Republican strength in the South has both compensated for and masked the extent of the party's decline elsewhere.

by Ronald Brownstein

Saturday, May 23, 2009


http://nationaljournal.com/img/njgraphics/090522_brownstein_modernera.gif

[Lefty]

hcap and other libs, can you stop gloating for a minute and answer a few q's about the Pres?
What do you like about being taxed heavily for energy if he gets any form of cap and trade through?
If you have a private health plan, how do you feel about it being taxed as income if he gets his healthcare plan through.
What do you like about him puttin car dealerships out of business? Let's say you owned a business and Obama comes along and takes it and then gives it to someone else? That has happened to some of the car dealerships. How woild YOU like just having everything you invested in and sweated over to be just taken?
That's just a few q's off the top of my head. Others may feel free to expand on these and see if we can get some lib answers. They have ragged on Bush and Repubs, but have saod practically nothing in support of Obama's plans.
I'm waiting for some Obama voters' answers on these q's.

[Marshall Bennett]

What do you like about becoming a nanny socialist state ?

[jballscalls]

hcap and other libs, can you stop gloating for a minute and answer a few q's about the Pres?
What do you like about being taxed heavily for energy if he gets any form of cap and trade through?
If you have a private health plan, how do you feel about it being taxed as income if he gets his healthcare plan through.
What do you like about him puttin car dealerships out of business? Let's say you owned a business and Obama comes along and takes it and then gives it to someone else? That has happened to some of the car dealerships. How woild YOU like just having everything you invested in and sweated over to be just taken?
That's just a few q's off the top of my head. Others may feel free to expand on these and see if we can get some lib answers. They have ragged on Bush and Repubs, but have saod practically nothing in support of Obama's plans.
I'm waiting for some Obama voters' answers on these q's.

1. Cap and trade stuff doesn't seem like all that great of a plan, however the environment and gases and all that stuff is important for us all to keep in mind, hopefully a better solution comes about.

2. I dont mind being taxed more for healthcare, our healthcare system is very flawed right now. from talking to a couple of friends who are now doctors, they are really hoping some things change in that department.

3. As far as the car dealerships, its basically criminal what the government is doing and it violates a part of one of the amendments, 5th i think. i don't feel bad though for the companies that went in for the bailout, as i dont feel bad for anyone who wants a handout

[Tom]

Somebody tell hcap we have moved on past the election and are discussing issues now. Although with the loser he helped put in office, I can see how he wants to avoid that ugly reality! :lol::lol::lol:

[Marshall Bennett]

Its so much easier to dwell on the past when his man at hand is making such a wreck of our future

[Lefty]

JB, you don't mind paying for Healthcare but what abouting waiting for the govt decides you can have it. Medicare is going bust and it is for 65 and up. If they can't keep medicare stable for us oldsters, how in the hell can they run healthcare for everybody?

Also, the people that own those car dealerships just want what they signed up for and they're getting screwed. I thought the dems were for fairness? Not hardly! A guy in Melbourne Fl called Rush the other day and said his family has owned it's dealership since 78, worked hard to build it up he said the govt took it away, without compensation and given to someone else for FREE! That's fair? Not hardly. Now multiply him by many others. The govt should not be deciding who wins and who loses. That's Socialism.
Cap and Trade when it's instituted, has been said, that it will cost the avg household $3,000 a year. That's a big help to poor and middle class?

[Lefty]

I posted my post this morn, asking libs to defend, if they can, Obama's policies. Evidently they can't No libs have posted.

[Saratoga_Mike]

JB, you don't mind paying for Healthcare but what abouting waiting for the govt decides you can have it. Medicare is going bust and it is for 65 and up. If they can't keep medicare stable for us oldsters, how in the hell can they run healthcare for everybody?

Also, the people that own those car dealerships just want what they signed up for and they're getting screwed. I thought the dems were for fairness? Not hardly! A guy in Melbourne Fl called Rush the other day and said his family has owned it's dealership since 78, worked hard to build it up he said the govt took it away, without compensation and given to someone else for FREE! That's fair? Not hardly. Now multiply him by many others. The govt should not be deciding who wins and who loses. That's Socialism.
Cap and Trade when it's instituted, has been said, that it will cost the avg household $3,000 a year. That's a big help to poor and middle class?

If it was a GM dealership, it wasn't take away. There are about 1,100 dealerships being closed down, 500 of which sell 35 or fewer cars per yr. Now why wasn't it "taken away?" Because GM is merely not extending the franchise agreements when they expire. GM has wanted to trim their network footprint for yrs. Again, the agreements are expiring and they aren't being renewed. How that is socialism is beyond me.

Cap and trade is an outrage. I could not agree with your position on that issue anymore. And Al Gore is the biggest hypocrite in the world on this issue, flying around in private jets and building a huge home in Belle Meade, the nicest section of Nashville. I have no problem with private jets or huge homes in Belle Meade, but I'm not a greenhouse gas nut like Gore.

[Lefty]

Mike, glad you agree about Cap and Trade. This guy called Rush, and told the outrageous story. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

[ArlJim78]

call it what it is, Crap and Charade.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mike, glad you agree about Cap and Trade. This guy called Rush, and told the outrageous story. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

I'm just providing the facts. I'm sure the gentleman calling in wasn't trying to be dishonest. He probably does view it as his business being "taken away," just as he would if he had a McDonald's franchise and they refused to renew it. The agreements are being allowed to expire. Now you may ask why or how does this help GM? Good questions. First, GM has wanted a much smaller dealership footprint for a number of yrs now. Please compare the market share of GM and Toyota and the sizes of their respective dealership networks. Unfortunately GM's lost a lot of market share over the past 30 yrs, but the dealership network has not contracted at the same rate. So what, you might say. Well what has happened is you'll have two or three very weak GM dealers within say a 3-mile radius. In order to win business from each other, they use price (note GM can't directly dictate price due to the Sherman Act, state laws and case law). As a result, you end up with very weak dealers, reduced resale values and stronger competitors. In this example, GM would rather have one strong, well capitalized competitor competing against Toyota than three weak players.

You can blame Obama for a number of things, but this is not one of them.

[jballscalls]

i would think you have to take anything said on Rush about Obama with a grain of salt. surely much of it is true, but obviously Rush has an agenda to make obama look even worse than he is, which is pretty bad anyways LOL

[Saratoga_Mike]

"They were not termination notices. They were basic notifications of our current plans for the future GM, and essentially stated that their dealership would not be part of those plans, and that in essence we didn't plan on renewing their sales and service agreement, when it expired in fourth quarter of 2010." Mark LaNeve, General Motors, VP Sales, Services and Marketing, May 15, 2009, on a conference call with the press.

[ArlJim78]

i would think you have to take anything said on Rush about Obama with a grain of salt. surely much of it is true, but obviously Rush has an agenda to make obama look even worse than he is, which is pretty bad anyways LOL
The guy had written a public letter (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/letter_from_a_dodge_dealer.html). It wasn't anything Rush cooked up or embellished.

[jballscalls]

The guy had written a public letter (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/letter_from_a_dodge_dealer.html). It wasn't anything Rush cooked up or embellished.

i understand, but Rush is liable to embellish in his interpretation. i know he is well liked on this board, and i've tried to listen to him, but i just can't take it. he annoys me almost as much as keith olbermann, jon stewart and hannity. i just can't take any of those 4

[Saratoga_Mike]

The guy had written a public letter (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/letter_from_a_dodge_dealer.html). It wasn't anything Rush cooked up or embellished.

Agreements often expire and no compensation is due. Again, there's nothing socialistic about that. It's plain old contract law.

[ArlJim78]

Agreements often expire and no compensation is due. Again, there's nothing socialistic about that. It's plain old contract law.
I never said it was socialism. I merely posted the mans letter since it was being discussed.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I never said it was socialism. I merely posted the mans letter since it was being discussed.

Lefty used the term - sorry for the confusion.

[ArlJim78]

Lefty used the term - sorry for the confusion.
FWIW, you are using the term expire with regard to these contracts. I really don't think that is accurate. Chrysler asked the court for those contracts to be terminated, canceled.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If you see my original post, I specifically referenced GM dealerships. I can't speak to the details of Chrysler situation. But I will say if the govt hadn't stepped into the Chrysler situation, the company would have largely ceased to exist (perhaps some brands would have been sold off). There was no private DIP (debt-in-possession) financing available for Chrysler. As a conservative, one could argue the govt should have just stayed out of the situation--a good argument, imo. Fine, then there wouldn't have been anything for the Chrysler dealers to sell anyway. Can't have it both ways.

[ArlJim78]

If you see my original post, I specifically referenced GM dealerships. I can't speak to the details of Chrysler situation. But I will say if the govt hadn't stepped into the Chrysler situation, the company would have largely ceased to exist (perhaps some brands would have been sold off). There was no private DIP (debt-in-possession) financing available for Chrysler. As a conservative, one could argue the govt should have just stayed out of the situation--a good argument, imo. Fine, then there wouldn't have been anything for the Chrysler dealers to sell anyway. Can't have it both ways.
there is no easy way out. there will be lots of pain going around.

my only question, actually my first thought when I heard that they were closing a certain percentage of dealers was, gee I wonder if politics was involved in the decision process somewhere along the line (campaign donations). I mean with this bankruptcy they are obviously protecting the UAW, it stands to reason that they would also protect their contributors. I know people are looking into it.

[Warren Henry]

GM not renewing franchise agreements is fine and dandy as long as they gave sufficient notice to the affected dealers so that they could wind down their businesses.

However the job done on some of the Chrysler dealers is WRONG. Forcing the dealers to take excess inventory and then shortly thereafter giving them only a few short weeks before they have to close is wrong. The dealers being closed will not be allowed to even sell their remaining inventory as new cars let alone receive any of the normal incentives. Nor will they be allowed to do warranty repairs - making their parts inventory worthless.

Since the government became a stakeholder in Chrysler and seems to be calling the shots about how they are to handle the bankrupcy, what is happening amounts to illegal seizure of assets. Clearly unconstitutional.

If I were a Chrysler dealer being handed this "deal", I would be hiring a law firm which specializes in constitutional law and going after the government.

[Tom]

With Chrysler, the UAW, which had no money invested, come away with 55%of the company, while dealers, who buy 95% of the products, created the sales revenues, and provide tens of thousands of jobs, get screwed and no one can even tell them what the criteria was to dump the, but most of us already know what that really was.

Obama is a thief. There is no debate on this one.

[Warren Henry]

With Chrysler, the UAW, which had no money invested, come away with 55%of the company, while dealers, who buy 95% of the products, created the sales revenues, and provide tens of thousands of jobs, get screwed and no one can even tell them what the criteria was to dump the, but most of us already know what that really was.

Obama is a thief. There is no debate on this one.


And the actual owners of the company (investors/stockholders) end up with ZIP (actually 1%).

Of course this seems fine to our friends on the left. Corporations and their owners are evil to them. But who stops to think who those investors are -- mutual funds, pension plans, etc.

This is nothing other than a government seizure of assets.

[chickenhead]

And the actual owners of the company (investors/stockholders) end up with ZIP (actually 1%).

Of course this seems fine to our friends on the left.

huh? Stockholders always eat after secured creditors in a bankruptcy. No matter how this bankruptcy was done, the owners were going to end up with jack.

That's why risk premiums exist. Owners of their debt have a potential bitch -- not owners of equity.

[Tom]

And employees - UAW are not even in the dining room.
This was a huge theft of a company by the Obama administration. The president of the Untied States is a thief as well as a liar and a murderer. This garbage belongs in Attica. He is a stain on our country.

[Warren Henry]

huh? Stockholders always eat after secured creditors in a bankruptcy. No matter how this bankruptcy was done, the owners were going to end up with jack.

That's why risk premiums exist. Owners of their debt have a potential bitch -- not owners of equity.

You are absolutely correct. My asset grab statement should have been restricted to what is happening to the dealers and should not have included the shareholders.

However, I don't feel that this is a "normal" wind down of a business gone bad. If the government weren't calling the shots, I would have no comment or complaint.

[chickenhead]

And employees - UAW are not even in the dining room.

I agree, that's why the bondholders are suing over this plan. The Federal government should not be involved in this.

[Warren Henry]

And employees - UAW are not even in the dining room.
This was a huge theft of a company by the Obama administration. The president of the Untied States is a thief as well as a liar and a murderer. This garbage belongs in Attica. He is a stain on our country.

Easy, Tom. Don't pop an aneurysm. This will be a long fight. Stay calm.

A majority will soon see that they have been bamboozled by a silver tongued devil.

[rastajenk]

A majority will soon see that they have been bamboozled by a silver tongued devil. But the media, so heavily invested in that devil, will surely make it difficult for that to happen.