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View Full Version : Adding insult to injury. Why is this a signup at all?


andymays
05-07-2009, 09:08 AM
This is a good example of the ridiculous IRS regulations regarding gambling winnings.

Not only is it a signup but it is also subject to withholding..

This is one of the tickets from the Twin Spires Super Hi-5 yesterday at Churchill and yes it is rediculous to make a bet like this if you're trying to win!

When we talk about fan appreciation day, why haven't the Tracks or TVG, or HRTV ever brought up the idea of a national petition to change this stuff. I would feel appreciated a lot more if the people that say they appreciate us did something besides dollar beers and hot dogs (heart attack and DUI on the way home). The bill brought up by NTRA doesn't go far enough.

How about HANA taking the lead and help in coordinating a national petition?

$1 Super Hi-5 - Ticket C
# 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
Ticket Cost: $15,120.00 *** Winning 5-1-8-3-4 combination paid $15,509.20 (before taxes) ***

startngate
05-07-2009, 09:28 AM
The Government is never going to eliminate the tax on income from gambling, so the best we can hope for is the Bill (H.R. 2140) introduced last month to Congress to get the withholding requirement taken out.

It's been tried before and hasn't gone anywhere since they got the limits raised to $5,000. Getting together some grass-roots support like a petition or a write your Congressman campaign couldn't hurt.

cj
05-07-2009, 09:37 AM
This is already in progress, not via HANA but another group. There is a bill already drafted.

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=39121

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2009/04/27/daily43.html

andymays
05-07-2009, 09:56 AM
This is already in progress, not via HANA but another group. There is a bill already drafted.

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=39121

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2009/04/27/daily43.html


This Bill doesn't go far enough!

You need a national petition for two reasons.

1. Politicians respond to potential votes or non-votes.

2. If HANA coordinated it through TVG and HRTV, and the Tracks, membership would increase 10 fold in a months time.

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 09:57 AM
It is a very stupid bet, plus, to answer your question, the winning bet was $1. The other 15,119 were losers. That's why it is taxed.

andymays
05-07-2009, 09:59 AM
It is a very stupid bet, plus, to answer your question, the winning bet was $1. The other 15,119 were losers. That's why it is taxed.


I got that AL.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the way these things are calculated!

fmolf
05-07-2009, 10:05 AM
I got that AL.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the way these things are calculated!
it irks me that casino winnings get untaxed my dad won 17k playing let it ride and he brought his chips to the cashiers window in increments of less than 5k and he never had to report anything?why are we taxed immediately and you win at the table in a casino and no tax no irs form....its the casino lobby...very powerful!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 10:06 AM
Not really. Its a rule everyone should understand, thus making such a ticket structure the ridiculous thing here, not the law

andymays
05-07-2009, 10:10 AM
Not really. Its a rule everyone should understand, thus making such a ticket structure the ridiculous thing here, not the law

If someone puts 15k to win on an even money shot and wins why shouldn't that person be required to signup also?

I think the regulations as they currently stand are ridiculous!

andymays
05-07-2009, 10:26 AM
One of the points I am suggesting with this is how often do Politicians do something just because it's the right thing to do?

Politicians respond to things that will get them votes or take away votes!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 10:45 AM
If someone puts 15k to win on an even money shot and wins why shouldn't that person be required to signup also?

I think the regulations as they currently stand are ridiculous!

Yes, there are holes in the law. Under the law, an even money shot is not a signer ever because the law requires at least a $600 payout and at least 300-1 odds. Just by that, you can see it was fixed in the days of the $2 minimum bet.

If it's the law you are complaining about, it could stand to be improved, I would agree, but if it is the fact that whoever bought those tickets had to pay, then I have no pity for them as they should have know the rules going in.

andymays
05-07-2009, 10:49 AM
Yes, there are holes in the law. Under the law, an even money shot is not a signer ever because the law requires at least a $600 payout and at least 300-1 odds. Just by that, you can see it was fixed in the days of the $2 minimum bet.

If it's the law you are complaining about, it could stand to be improved, I would agree, but if it is the fact that whoever bought those tickets had to pay, then I have no pity for them as they should have know the rules going in.


You are right Al, but my point is that this stuff has been going on forever and nobody from the racing industry (Tracks, TVG,HRTV) has ever used their forum to advance something that really helps the Horseplayer and by the way would really help them (Horseplayers churn)!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 11:07 AM
You are right Al, but my point is that this stuff has been going on forever and nobody from the racing industry (Tracks, TVG,HRTV) has ever used their forum to advance something that really helps the Horseplayer and by the way would really help them (Horseplayers churn)!

It's a question of where they have to spend their political capital. Many tracks are constantly having to confront issues with their state and local governments simply to maintain the business. The withholding is a federal level law. There is no nationalization of tracks, so as such, they are ill suited to address such an issue. Further, the interstate gambling act always hangs over them. Anger the feds too much and you take a hit that you won't recover from. So it really isn't in their interests to pursue this, though be sure they would prefer the laws were changed as well. The potential benefit from that though simply does not outweigh the risk. Honestly, I think the idea of the churn is a bit overblown anyway. Some will come back, for sure, but I believe less than has been estimated.

As for ADWs, though they do help the players in some ways, I really see them as paracites in the system. They extract money for a service that really shouldn't be needed from them, but due to the mishmash of law, they can exist and do well for themselves. Why would they want to endanger their profits? Again a question of directing political capital to priority issues to maintain the business.

No, the law directly affects one group only, and that is the horseplayer. And that is where the onus for change should lie. Just like any other law, if enough citizens want it changed, then, theoretically at least...., it will get changed. This is where a group like HANA is needed. If the citizenry can gain enough momentum, then other players like the tracks can come in and help, because the will of the people will allow them to face far less risk than if they tried to make a unilateral move.

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:11 AM
If HANA takes the lead on something like this, especially if the current bill fails, it has the potential to take HANA to 40,000 members is a couple short months!

HANA has to sell the concept to the Tracks, TVG, and HRTV!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 11:14 AM
Then write their leadership and express your feelings. Give them concrete ideas that can be acted on. Posting on a message board doesn't count

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:16 AM
Then write their leadership and express your feelings. Give them concrete ideas that can be acted on. Posting on a message board doesn't count


Already did Al. By the way they do read the stuff on the Forum!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm fully aware of that, but since 95% of what goes on here turns into howling at the moon, it is not the appropriate place or way to make concrete suggestions. That would be like the people who write letters to the editor in small time local papers and think federal officials are actually reading them.

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm fully aware of that, but since 95% of what goes on here turns into howling at the moon, it is not the appropriate place or way to make concrete suggestions. That would be like the people who write letters to the editor in small time local papers and think federal officials are actually reading them.


In my recent experience over the last year I know that Racetrack Executives, HANA Leadership, and Industry Executives look and listen to as much as they can.

Many times they will come in a Forum to push or test a marketing strategy!

At least the smart ones do!

Relwob Owner
05-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Then write their leadership and express your feelings. Give them concrete ideas that can be acted on. Posting on a message board doesn't count

From what I have seen on this board, I will say two things...

First, posting here does count because it is viewed by many...

Two, Mr. Mays is very persisitent and will do whatever is necessary....I doubted him once as well and wont in the future...he was very good with the TVG situation a few weeks ago.

BillW
05-07-2009, 11:29 AM
This Bill doesn't go far enough!

You need a national petition for two reasons.

1. Politicians respond to potential votes or non-votes.

2. If HANA coordinated it through TVG and HRTV, and the Tracks, membership would increase 10 fold in a months time.

The NTRA is leading this effort as posted before. This includes a petition, if you consider a letter writing campaign as such.

http://www.capwiz.com/ntra/home/

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:32 AM
From what I have seen on this board, I will say two things...

First, posting here does count because it is viewed by many...

Two, Mr. Mays is very persisitent and will do whatever is necessary....I doubted him once as well and wont in the future...he was very good with the TVG situation a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the compliment. To tell you the truth I didn't think we would win the TVG thing. Mike Marten of the CHRB and Dan Leibman of the BloodHorse pushed it and made it happen.

Back to the topic.. What a lot of people don't realize is that when you send an email that is on point and respectful these guys pay attention. Many times Racing Executives have a bunch of "yes men" around them and never get to hear the truth. They do pay attention!

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:35 AM
The NTRA is leading this effort as posted before. This includes a petition, if you consider a letter writing campaign as such.

http://www.capwiz.com/ntra/home/


Thanks Bill. I guess I'm not making my best case here. What I would like to see is this kind of thing pushed on Track feeds, TVG, and HRTV every couple of hours when the audience is at it's peak. It shows that these entities care about the Horseplayer!

Unless I'm not paying attention I've missed that type of effort.

trigger
05-07-2009, 11:40 AM
IMHO, we Horseplayers have bigger fish to fry with the IRS/congress than getting the withholding on big payoffs changed.....assuming no other "signers", this bettor would get back the withholding after paying a fed tax on $389 when s/he filed their taxes next year.
The tax thresholds of 600-1 and total payoffs of $5000(?) need to be increased substantially so there's no withholding or signing to begin with.

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:43 AM
IMHO, we Horseplayers have bigger fish to fry with the IRS/congress than getting the withholding on big payoffs changed.....assuming no other "signers", this bettor would get back the withholding after paying a fed tax on $389 when s/he filed their taxes next year.
The tax thresholds of 600-1 and total payoffs of $5000(?) need to be increased substantially so there's no withholding or signing to begin with.

Increasing Limits is what is needed! Absolutely!

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:49 AM
By the way, I don't get the best feeling about the NTRA even though I have been a member the last two years. I probably won't re up next time!

BillW
05-07-2009, 11:51 AM
Thanks Bill. I guess I'm not making my best case here. What I would like to see is this kind of thing pushed on Track feeds, TVG, and HRTV every couple of hours when the audience is at it's peak. It shows that these entities care about the Horseplayer!

Unless I'm not paying attention I've missed that type of effort.

Time to start a letter writing campaign to the NTRA :)

andymays
05-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Time to start a letter writing campaign to the NTRA :)


Time for HANA to eclipse the NTRA by taking the lead!

Imriledup
05-07-2009, 03:20 PM
It is a very stupid bet, plus, to answer your question, the winning bet was $1. The other 15,119 were losers. That's why it is taxed.

But, if you bet 15k and get back 15k, that's not 300-1 odds. You are not 'three hundred times-ing your money'

andymays
05-07-2009, 03:24 PM
But, if you bet 15k and get back 15k, that's not 300-1 odds. You are not 'three hundred times-ing your money'


Exactly!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 03:32 PM
But, if you bet 15k and get back 15k, that's not 300-1 odds. You are not 'three hundred times-ing your money'

Look, this goes back to the pre computer days. If you wanted this exata

1+2/3+4

you had to buy these 4 tickets

1/3
1/4
2/3
2/4

whereas today the will (or can) all show on the same ticket. Thus the law does not recognize one bet, but rather 4. Thus they had one winner at 15000-1 odds and a whole bunch of losers, which don't count. This is why the law is the way it is, so yes, it is behind the times and should be fixed, but don't say it doesn't meet the standards of the law because it absolutely does.

andymays
05-07-2009, 03:37 PM
Look, this goes back to the pre computer days. If you wanted this exata

1+2/3+4

you had to buy these 4 tickets

1/3
1/4
2/3
2/4

whereas today the will (or can) all show on the same ticket. Thus the law does not recognize one bet, but rather 4. Thus they had one winner at 15000-1 odds and a whole bunch of losers, which don't count. This is why the law is the way it is, so yes, it is behind the times and should be fixed, but don't say it doesn't meet the standards of the law because it absolutely does.

I does meet the standards of the law.

One other point to make regarding the example that started this post is that at the track when you cash a physical ticket you don't get a ticket back with all the losers on it for your tax records. In an audit you don't have any proof of the losing wagers. It is not shown on the tax form either and it should be on there!

OTM Al
05-07-2009, 05:53 PM
I record all my wagers in a notebook, which if I were to be audited, can be used. I almost never buy paper tickets anymore, so my monthly statements from NYRA would easily take care of this problem as well. Much more efficient for record keeping than a box of tickets. Just because the government does not take into account modern technolgies, that does not mean that we should not.

andymays
05-07-2009, 05:59 PM
I record all my wagers in a notebook, which if I were to be audited, can be used. I almost never buy paper tickets anymore, so my monthly statements from NYRA would easily take care of this problem as well. Much more efficient for record keeping than a box of tickets. Just because the government does not take into account modern technolgies, that does not mean that we should not.


I don't think they would accept Racing losses in a notebook. They would want a ticket or an online statement.

When I was audited for a pick 6 years ago the biggest sticking point was the Las Vegas losses. They weren't too keen on the notebook losses even though I could prove I was there!

Pace Cap'n
05-07-2009, 08:26 PM
I guess the 7 was scratched?

andymays
05-07-2009, 08:49 PM
I guess the 7 was scratched?


Lucky for them!

Imriledup
05-07-2009, 11:42 PM
This is why i love 10 cent supers and 50 cent tri's, they 'stretch' out the 'signer' requirements.

menifee
05-08-2009, 12:02 AM
It doesn't do what it should do, but at least it eliminates withholding. Call your Congressperson.


http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2140/text