Derby vs Preakness - distance difference matters much?

[oddsmaven]

When handicapping these two jewels of the triple crown, do you consider it very significant in determining who to bet, that some horses may be suited to the distance of one but not the other?

[sonnyp]

When handicapping these two jewels of the triple crown, do you consider it very significant in determining who to bet, that some horses may be suited to the distance of one but not the other?

it's not so much the different distance but the "play" of the two different tracks.

pimlico has sharper turns and shorter stretch and has always been perceived as a track that favors up front, or front running types.

[cj's dad]

When handicapping these two jewels of the triple crown, do you consider it very significant in determining who to bet, that some horses may be suited to the distance of one but not the other?

I think it is important to look at this as a shortening of 110 yards or 6-6.5 seconds in real time. At this distance on May 2nd, all things being equal, POTN wins the race.

I doubt that any horses suitability is going to improve or regress at a + or - 110 yards once the distance is above 1 mile.

[oddsmaven]

it's not so much the different distance but the "play" of the two different tracks.

pimlico has sharper turns and shorter stretch and has always been perceived as a track that favors up front, or front running types.
I was wondering about accounting for that in my poll, but didn't...I thought they altered Pimlico a number of years ago to minimize that but I could be wrong.

[sonnyp]

I was wondering about accounting for that in my poll, but didn't...I thought they altered Pimlico a number of years ago to minimize that but I could be wrong.

well c j's dad ? it's your home track. what's it like these days ?

[46zilzal]

The either or leaves out a myriad of differences in these two

[cj's dad]

well c j's dad ? it's your home track. what's it like these days ?

I rarely venture to Pimlico (I usually go to Laurel Park) and even less frequently wager on racing there. The one thing I can comment on is that the track is fairly flat in the turns (it was in the past) which I would assume gives the front runners an edge.

Someone else here at PA did comment several weeks ago that Pimlico has one of the best dirt surfaces in America, which I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. There are several Md. owners who post here so they might know better than I. Sorry for the lack of insight on my 'home" track.

[fmolf]

it's not so much the different distance but the "play" of the two different tracks.

pimlico has sharper turns and shorter stretch and has always been perceived as a track that favors up front, or front running types.
there has only been one wire to wire winner in the last 25 runs of the preakness louis quatorze...the stretch run is only 84 ft shorter than churchills to me that means longer more sweeping turns as both are one mile ovals...my geometry could be off though.....cj' dad looking for some local info on this sublect!

[cj's dad]

there has only been one wire to wire winner in the last 25 runs of the preakness louis quatorze...the stretch run is only 84 ft shorter than churchills to me that means longer more sweeping turns as both are one mile ovals...my geometry could be off though.....cj' dad looking for some local info on this sublect!

please see post #7

[Robert Fischer]

the biggest difference is the scrum of the 19-20 horse derby vs around 12 or so in the Preakness.

[fmolf]

[/b]

please see post #7
by sweeping i mean longer in circumference..churchills are tighter....am i wrong in this assumption?

[OTM Al]

it's not so much the different distance but the "play" of the two different tracks.

pimlico has sharper turns and shorter stretch and has always been perceived as a track that favors up front, or front running types.

Common misconception. Go to Google maps and call up the satellite pictures of both courses on two different tabs and put them to the same resolution. There isn't a whole lot of difference between the two and if anything, the Churchill turns are tighter. However, its not like it's a 6f bullring. The surfaces may play a bit different, but that's true of any track on any given day, but it is not the turns themselves that are causing this, if it exists at all. Now as cj's dad says, there may well be a difference in banking on the turns.

[Cratos]

it's not so much the different distance but the "play" of the two different tracks.

pimlico has sharper turns and shorter stretch and has always been perceived as a track that favors up front, or front running types.

Pimilco does not have sharper turns than Churchill Downs. Granted the difference is minute, but nonetheless Churchill has the sharper turns.

Also the 1/16th mile difference in distance or 330 feet between the Derby and the Preakness should not be a hindrance in winning. A horse that can get a 1-3/16th distance will most likely get a 1-1/4 distance.

However in the Preakness the distance is shorter and not longer therefore the distance is “coming back” so to speak and if there is an advantage it goes to the front-end speed.

Lastly, the Pimilco stretch is shorter than the Churchill Downs stretch, but only by 82.5 feet.

The two track layouts will verify much of what I have written.

[sonnyp]

never raced at pimlico, but always felt horsemen who had were of the opinion that making up ground in 2 turn races was not the optimum position to be in on that track.

perhaps it is the lack of any bank on the turns which does not lend itself to horses gathering momentum and making up ground in the later stages of 2 turn races.

MTB's trainer, right after the derby, mentioned that pimlico is perceived to play to up close speed.

[fmolf]

never raced at pimlico, but always felt horsemen who had were of the opinion that making up ground in 2 turn races was not the optimum position to be in on that track.

perhaps it is the lack of any bank on the turns which does not lend itself to horses gathering momentum and making up ground in the later stages of 2 turn races.

MTB's trainer, right after the derby, mentioned that pimlico is perceived to play to up close speed.
i believe if you look at the races in the last 25 yrs you will see that front runners do not fare as well as perceived.....only one wire to wire winner and that was louis quatorze

[GaryG]

At the current meet there have been 27 races at 8.5F of which 13 (48%) were won wire to wire. 16 winners (59%) were within less than a length of the lead at the first call. That is the only commonly run two turn distance. 63% of the 6F races were won wire to wire. This is not a closer's track.

[JPinMaryland]

I think there is a perception among the jockeys that CD turns are tighter which might some sort of illusion (in part, some of it is geometry). They did a piece on this a few years ago before the derby w/ someone, I think Bailey, giving you what it looks and feels like to ride in the derby. He said something about the way the turn comes up on you all of a sudden. If you've never ridden there before it can fool you.

I do think the somewhat shorter distance at PIM does make a very important difference. Horses go into a drive often before the end of the second turn and if they are lucky just keep moving to the finish. Like Bernardini. A horse that can make a burst for some 400 yards might do better here than at 10f .

I think that pt. about the flatter turns is also important.

[Marshall Bennett]

Common misconception. Go to Google maps and call up the satellite pictures of both courses on two different tabs and put them to the same resolution. There isn't a whole lot of difference between the two and if anything, the Churchill turns are tighter. However, its not like it's a 6f bullring. The surfaces may play a bit different, but that's true of any track on any given day, but it is not the turns themselves that are causing this, if it exists at all. Now as cj's dad says, there may well be a difference in banking on the turns.
:ThmbUp: I've been echoing this for years but always seems to fall on deaf ears :ThmbUp:

[fmolf]

At the current meet there have been 27 races at 8.5F of which 13 (48%) were won wire to wire. 16 winners (59%) were within less than a length of the lead at the first call. That is the only commonly run two turn distance. 63% of the 6F races were won wire to wire. This is not a closer's track.
look at the past runnings of the preakness and you will find only one wire to wire winner in the last 25 runnings.....