California Dreaming or nitemare ?

[turfbar]

I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed somewhere else on this forum ,but here I go.What has happened to the California contigent showing up on Kentucky Derby day, you guys haven't had a winner this decade except for Giacoma on an off track. The super hype of Baffert is galling,but running second is not winning.
Is it the POLY tracks affecting them recently? Me thinks so! Please don't take this as condesending but when the KD winner comes from Sunland Park doesn't that speak volumes on synthetic tracks across country?


Turfbar

[miesque]

I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed somewhere else on this forum ,but here I go.What has happened to the California contigent showing up on Kentucky Derby day, you guys haven't had a winner this decade except for Giacoma on an off track. The super hype of Baffert is galling,but running second is not winning.
Is it the POLY tracks affecting them recently? Me thinks so! Please don't take this as condesending but when the KD winner comes from Sunland Park doesn't that speak volumes on synthetic tracks across country?


Turfbar

Three of the Top 5 Finishers in the Derby were So Cal horses with one of their leading contenders scratched the morning of the race. In addition, the finish of those three was pretty formful based on their SoCal performances. I scarcely consider that a disgrace especially considering where the other favorites ended up in the race.

[cj]

What synthetics do to the bettor is make form tougher to evaluate when horses race on dirt. I don't think it hurts the horses a bit. The winner raced on polytrack several times to begin his career.

[fmolf]

What synthetics do to the bettor is make form tougher to evaluate when horses race on dirt. I don't think it hurts the horses a bit. The winner raced on polytrack several times to begin his career.
i agree some horses can translate some cannot..sometimes it is very difficult to tell especially with limited experience young 3yr olds

[Relwob Owner]

Three of the Top 5 Finishers in the Derby were So Cal horses with one of their leading contenders scratched the morning of the race. In addition, the finish of those three was pretty formful based on their SoCal performances. I scarcely consider that a disgrace especially considering where the other favorites ended up in the race.


Ditto that.....Also, with respect to the comment that started this thread, Baffert was superhyped? Seemed like most people knocked and questioned his horse, who had really done nothing but win....if you are going to bring up being superhyped, can you possibly think of any horse being hyped more with so little results than Dunkirk(East Coast)? Plus, many were superhyped on the way from the East Coast but never even made it(Old Fashioned? Imperial Council, Mr. Fantasy???)

[andymays]

In my opinion the synthetic thing is a net negative for racing because it clouds the national picture in the biggest races.

The Breeders Cup will be dominated by Europeans because of Pro Ride (Hocus Pocus Junk in my opinion).

The Derby was clouded because of the California (and elsewhere) synthetic thing.

In Europe, who for some reason some have decided to copy, the Horses with the least class and ability race on Synthetic Surfaces.

In my opinion no race on a synthetic surface should be above grade 3 status.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed somewhere else on this forum ,but here I go.What has happened to the California contigent showing up on Kentucky Derby day, you guys haven't had a winner this decade except for Giacoma on an off track. The super hype of Baffert is galling,but running second is not winning.
Is it the POLY tracks affecting them recently? Me thinks so! Please don't take this as condesending but when the KD winner comes from Sunland Park doesn't that speak volumes on synthetic tracks across country?


Turfbar
Maybe when you've been around racing awhile you will learn that the track MTB won the Canadian 2 yr old Championship on is Polyfake; many runners this year have a Poly win on theiur PP's, and most of the top 10 won on fake dirt.
A look at HANA's list of tracks for takeout, field size, and handle you will see that Southern Ca holds its own with the bighgest circuit, NY, like it or not.

[Dahoss9698]

Maybe when you've been around racing awhile you will learn that the track MTB won the Canadian 2 yr old Championship on is Polyfake; many runners this year have a Poly win on theiur PP's, and most of the top 10 won on fake dirt.
A look at HANA's list of tracks for takeout, field size, and handle you will see that Southern Ca holds its own with the bighgest circuit, NY, like it or not.

How many times has NY cancelled for lack of entries?

[Bruddah]

What synthetics do to the bettor is make form tougher to evaluate when horses race on dirt. I don't think it hurts the horses a bit. The winner raced on polytrack several times to begin his career.

Just my take. If POTN had been prepped on dirt and Bo-rail had not been on the winner, POTN wins. For POTN to run on that surface Saturday and run second, tells me he is going to be the winner of the Preakness.

I just proof read this post and I even sound NUTS to myself. :eek: :rolleyes:

[cj's dad]

Just my take. If POTN had been prepped on dirt and Bo-rail had not been on the winner, POTN wins. For POTN to run on that surface Saturday and run second, tells me he is going to be the winner of the Preakness.

I just proof read this post and I even sound NUTS to myself. :eek: :rolleyes:

First time you noticed that huh ?

[fmolf]

i think papa clem was the second best horse in the derby. why bejarano took him five wide i'll never know!....but the poly horses did not do well except for potn.He was not hyped like dunkirk because pletch has the o-fer hanging over his head!

[turfbar]

Fellas fellas is not California top of the food chain along with Kentucky ,NY, Florida--- yea I know Woodbine is poly ----what does that really got to do with it

until they win the derby (0-4) california tracks in my estimation do not rank with the best.


Charlie Whittingham must be rolling in his grave


Turfbar

[turfbar]

Maybe when you've been around racing awhile you will learn that the track MTB won the Canadian 2 yr old Championship on is Polyfake; many runners this year have a Poly win on theiur PP's, and most of the top 10 won on fake dirt.
A look at HANA's list of tracks for takeout, field size, and handle you will see that Southern Ca holds its own with the bighgest circuit, NY, like it or not.


Maybe when you have been around awhile you will learn how to read a racing form ,check out where MTB raced on October 25,2008. Obviously he hated SA,and it looks like R.Mandella had enough savvy to ship him out to a dirt track.

;) Turfbar

[GaryG]

I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed somewhere else on this forum ,but here I go.What has happened to the California contigent showing up on Kentucky Derby day, you guys haven't had a winner this decade except for Giacoma on an off track. The super hype of Baffert is galling,but running second is not winning.
Is it the POLY tracks affecting them recently? Me thinks so! Please don't take this as condesending but when the KD winner comes from Sunland Park doesn't that speak volumes on synthetic tracks across country?


TurfbarSo, Giacomo on an off track doesn't count but POTN finishing 2nd to a 50-1 shot on an off track proves Calif racing is inferior? Sure, if you say so...:rolleyes:

[Relwob Owner]

Fellas fellas is not California top of the food chain along with Kentucky ,NY, Florida--- yea I know Woodbine is poly ----what does that really got to do with it

until they win the derby (0-4) california tracks in my estimation do not rank with the best.


Charlie Whittingham must be rolling in his grave


Turfbar

Question-you say that California is weak....you never responded to the fact that they had three of the top five were from California and California produced what would have been the morning line favorite as well....how would you respond to this?


Also, you said Baffert was hyped but never responded to all the horses from the east who were hyped and ran poorly or didnt make it....Dunkirk, Fresian Fire, Old Fashioned, Imperial Council, Mr. Fantasy.....

In your post above, you just restated your thought on teh thread but didnt answer any of the responses to it....I am interested in you thougts on my post.....

I think the better question would be how does the East Coast produce one out of 5 of the top 5 horses after so much hype went into East Coast Horses going in???

[rrbauer]

How many times has NY cancelled for lack of entries?

How many times has NY cancelled because of weather?

[Dahoss9698]

How many times has NY cancelled because of weather?

Apples and oranges isn't it? You can't really help mother nature. How many times has Cali cancelled because there was an issue with one of the synthetic surfaces?

[turfbar]

Question-you say that California is weak....you never responded to the fact that they had three of the top five were from California and California produced what would have been the morning line favorite as well....how would you respond to this?


Also, you said Baffert was hyped but never responded to all the horses from the east who were hyped and ran poorly or didnt make it....Dunkirk, Fresian Fire, Old Fashioned, Imperial Council, Mr. Fantasy.....

In your post above, you just restated your thought on teh thread but didnt answer any of the responses to it....I am interested in you thougts on my post.....

I think the better question would be how does the East Coast produce one out of 5 of the top 5 horses after so much hype went into East Coast Horses going in???


WINNING WINNING WINNING
not 2nd not 3rd not 5th come on,this is basic
and you're searching for excuses to make sense.

It's all about winning , bragging rights , who gives a shit about the Arizona Cardinals they came in second. As a horseplayer thru the 70's 80's, 90's
always respected the Cali circuit Sunday Silence, Cougar ll , the list goes on.
Ya gotta win
Thats my point


Turfbar

[Relwob Owner]

WINNING WINNING WINNING
not 2nd not 3rd not 5th come on,this is basic
and you're searching for excuses to make sense.

It's all about winning , bragging rights , who gives a shit about the Arizona Cardinals they came in second. As a horseplayer thru the 70's 80's, 90's
always respected the Cali circuit Sunday Silence, Cougar ll , the list goes on.
Ya gotta win
Thats my point


Turfbar

Please point to anywhere in my posts where I made excuses for California horses...they arent there....I just provided facts that contradict your opinion.

Please backup your notion that Pioneer Of the Nile was "hyped" compared with other horses....

As far as winning goes, if you follow racing, you know how hard it is to win the Derby....a California horse did in 2005 so it hasnt been that long.

If you are going to infer that the 3 year olds from Cal atre somehow inferior lately, then the results of the Derby this year, dont back up your assertion....3 out of 5 in the top five proves the opposite
I simply used this years results to show that your point about horses from there declining isnt accurate

[Bobzilla]

I think the California contingent represented themselves rather nicely this year, or more specifically those with an extensive synthetic history did well.

I do think there is something that might work against them in races like the Derby if they're trying dirt for the first time. The early pace scenario of a typical Derby is more often than not going to be more intense than what they're accustomed to experiencing on synthetics. Some developing three year olds might not react well to this when they experience it for the first time. If there is any credence to this than POTN ran a bang up race on Saturday. At least PC and MTB had had some experience with race dynamics more along the lines of a Kentuck Derby, having run in the Arkansas Derby and Sundland Derby respectively. As we go forward I suspect some of the runners we saw the other day might step up, now that they've been toughened up a bit and familiarized with a different type of race.

[turfbar]

Talk about spelling it out

SYNTHETIC , the tracks in CALI are all syn maybe just maybe they are the culprit for inferior races when they come east, those Cali horses PION raced in the grade 1 SA DERBY as did Chocolate.


T

[Quagmire]

Talk about spelling it out

SYNTHETIC , the tracks in CALI are all syn maybe just maybe they are the culprit for inferior races when they come east, those Cali horses PION raced in the grade 1 SA DERBY as did Chocolate.


T

Those Cali horses you mentioned finished ahead of a bunch of horses that raced in G1 races on the east coast.

[miesque]

Those Cali horses you mentioned finished ahead of a bunch of horses that raced in G1 races on the east coast.

Bingo! :ThmbUp:

I will comment that its been very interesting watching the reactions by some to what happened on Saturday in the Derby. I don't think I have ever seen such a widespread level of twisting and distorting of logic all in pursuit of being right. Its starting to come across to me as not being able to handle being wrong very well. :D

[Relwob Owner]

Talk about spelling it out

SYNTHETIC , the tracks in CALI are all syn maybe just maybe they are the culprit for inferior races when they come east, those Cali horses PION raced in the grade 1 SA DERBY as did Chocolate.


T



Kinda confused....the road up to the and the Derby itself actually proved the opposite of what you are contending....the horses who raced on the poly beat up on the horses in the Easr before(I Want Revenge and Papa Clem) and during(3 out of 5 in top 5) the Derby. Your argument isnt based on any facts and you dont seem interested in responding to facts so I can only guess that you posted this thread with no real motivation, other than to intentionally confuse and it has worked.

Good luck to ya

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Fellas fellas is not California top of the food chain along with Kentucky ,NY, Florida--- yea I know Woodbine is poly ----what does that really got to do with it

until they win the derby (0-4) california tracks in my estimation do not rank with the best.


Charlie Whittingham must be rolling in his grave


Turfbar

If you truly believe that then you must think that Sunland Park (1-1) is a top-tier track.

[fmolf]

If you truly believe that then you must think that Sunland Park (1-1) is a top-tier track.
in my estimation polifornia still produces good horses. the derby is evidence of that....but their everyday racing cards have gone so far down in my estimation that i do not know how they will recover i cannot remember any other tier one track cancelling for lack of entries!horseman are leaving the state because the poly is not all its cracked up to be..imho the owners especially do not want to run on it!

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Synth surfaces have nothing to do with Cali's problems; the biggest issue is slot money. Get rid of the monopoly that the Indians have on slots, which probably won't happen, and Cal racing will be back.

[Run Nicholas Run]

Just my take. If POTN had been prepped on dirt and Bo-rail had not been on the winner, POTN wins. For POTN to run on that surface Saturday and run second, tells me he is going to be the winner of the Preakness.

I just proof read this post and I even sound NUTS to myself. :eek: :rolleyes:


take a look at the runner up in the kentucky derby
and see how these horses perform in the preakness.

[turfbar]

Kinda confused....the road up to the and the Derby itself actually proved the opposite of what you are contending....the horses who raced on the poly beat up on the horses in the Easr before(I Want Revenge and Papa Clem) and during(3 out of 5 in top 5) the Derby. Your argument isnt based on any facts and you dont seem interested in responding to facts so I can only guess that you posted this thread with no real motivation, other than to intentionally confuse and it has worked.

Good luck to ya

What planet are you on dude! I said Cali hasn't won a derby since Giacoma that was 2005, now to me it seems simple that since the installation of POLY /SYN tracks none of the Cali based horses have won a KD. Since the inception of poly. That to you doesn't speak volumes?

2005 Giacoma
2000 Fusachi Pegasus
1999 Charismatic
1998 Real Quiet
1997 Silver Charm


Turfbar

[Relwob Owner]

What planet are you on dude! I said Cali hasn't won a derby since Giacoma that was 2005, now to me it seems simple that since the installation of POLY /SYN tracks none of the Cali based horses have won a KD. Since the inception of poly. That to you doesn't speak volumes?

2005 Giacoma
2000 Fusachi Pegasus
1999 Charismatic
1998 Real Quiet
1997 Silver Charm


Turfbar


I am on earth, "dude"....What speaks volumes is the most recent results and those are this year....Papa Clem ran on Poly, came East and Beat Up on horses and ran well in the Derby....I Want Revenge ran on Poly, came East and Beat up on horses before getting hurt...Pioneer of The Nile ran on Poly, came East and beat everyone in the Derby except one....do you need more current proof?

Your contention seems to be that poly to dirt horses dont have the goods and this year seems to be a bad year to prove it....plus, you are using 3 year olds as example wand they are some of the most unpredictable animals to forecast....

To switch things around, since general Quarters, Dunkirk, and West Side Bernie ran badly, does that mean that dirt doesnt prepare horses well for the Derby or that east Coast Horses "suck"....no, it doesnt....

You are correlating California horses not winning with Poly and using the Triple Crown really isnt a good way of doing that IMHO....things like this go in streaks, like you proved in 1997-2000, when the horses in the West won more...who wins the Derby cant be looked at or blamed on one factor....it has to do also with who owns the horse, who trains it, where they want to prep, etc.



NNow, lets go away from the Triple Crown and look recently....didnt seem that Colonel John had too much trouble in the Travers(The Summer Derby) after coming from poly, did he?????

I am all for debate but statement like "what planet are you from dude?" really kind of cheapen you total argument whether you are right or wrong.... :bang:

[GaryG]

none of the Cali based horses have won a KD. Since the inception of poly. That to you doesn't speak volumes? TurfbarNo it doesn't. What does speak volumes is your statement in the original post about the "galling hype of Baffert". As the previous poster said, comments like "what planet are you on" etc just weaken your already tenuous position.

[miesque]

What planet are you on dude! I said Cali hasn't won a derby since Giacoma that was 2005, now to me it seems simple that since the installation of POLY /SYN tracks none of the Cali based horses have won a KD. Since the inception of poly. That to you doesn't speak volumes?

2005 Giacoma
2000 Fusachi Pegasus
1999 Charismatic
1998 Real Quiet
1997 Silver Charm


Turfbar

Dude - I think you better think a little harder before you make such narrow minded statements, your hatred of synthetics is blinding your logic. Its now been 4 YEARS since Giacomo, there were 5 YEARS between FuPeg and Giacomo and that cannot be blamed on synthetic. Also, the mere fact you consider a 4 year draught to be statistically significant is pretty funny. If you go through the list of Kentucky Derby winners its not an evenly dispersed group of winners in terms geographical area.

[rrbauer]

Apples and oranges isn't it? You can't really help mother nature. How many times has Cali cancelled because there was an issue with one of the synthetic surfaces?

You hold out NY as a positive example when compared to Calif because NY has not cancelled days/races because of lack of entries (choosing to run regardless of field size). My post was to point out that Calif's weather makes it a positive example when compared to NY. Both jurisdictions have cancellations for different reasons. Nonetheless the cancellations occur in both jurisdictions.

With regard to "mother nature", NY chooses to flaunt the weather issue by holding racing in the middle of winter so offering up "mother nature" as the reason for cancellations is just an easy way to duck the flaw in the decision-making process that produced racing at that time.

Calif needs to reduce racing days to get them into alignment with their horse population. There are a lot of reasons that their horse population is declining but the primary one is that owners/trainers can do better elsewhere; and, elsewhere is where they're going.

[Dahoss9698]

You hold out NY as a positive example when compared to Calif because NY has not cancelled days/races because of lack of entries (choosing to run regardless of field size). My post was to point out that Calif's weather makes it a positive example when compared to NY. Both jurisdictions have cancellations for different reasons. Nonetheless the cancellations occur in both jurisdictions.

With regard to "mother nature", NY chooses to flaunt the weather issue by holding racing in the middle of winter so offering up "mother nature" as the reason for cancellations is just an easy way to duck the flaw in the decision-making process that produced racing at that time.

Calif needs to reduce racing days to get them into alignment with their horse population. There are a lot of reasons that their horse population is declining but the primary one is that owners/trainers can do better elsewhere; and, elsewhere is where they're going.

It's apples and oranges and you know it. I understand cancellations occur at both places. That was not my point. NY hasn't had to cancel due to lack of entries. I thought the synthetic was supposed to increase field size....not decrease it. If you don't see the huge difference between a track having to cancel because of weather, and a track cancelling because they don't have enough entries than it is you taking the easy way out.

With regard to NY flaunting the weather issue by running during the winter, that's just silly. Should NY just shut down during the winter? That'll be pretty costly to the people that earn a living there won't it? What about mild winters? You can't help mother nature. You know that.

[turfbar]

:D :D :D You wanted facts I showed you facts and now you refuse to acknowledge facts because I used the word "dude" :D :D :D

What I am alluding is the decision to go POLY/SYN ,it seems to have hurt CALI--
handle and the size of fields and with not much success WINNING a classic like the KD it will hurt the breeding shed.


These are 3yo's ,early in the year 3yo's, not established 4 or 5 year old horses.
Believe what you want to believe there is nothing I can say to sway your position, so i guess this is where we say sayonara.

Since the installation of poly in Cali winners of the Kentucky DERBY


OTHER than CALIFORNIA 4 CALIFORNIA 0


Turfbar

[miesque]

:D :D :D You wanted facts I showed you facts and now you refuse to acknowledge facts because I used the word "dude" :D :D :D

What I am alluding is the decision to go POLY/SYN ,it seems to have hurt CALI--
handle and the size of fields and with not much success WINNING a classic like the KD it will hurt the breeding shed.


These are 3yo's ,early in the year 3yo's, not established 4 or 5 year old horses.
Believe what you want to believe there is nothing I can say to sway your position, so i guess this is where we say sayonara.

Since the installation of poly in Cali winners of the Kentucky DERBY


OTHER than CALIFORNIA 4 CALIFORNIA 0


Turfbar


You are right, every other state with a major TC prep has had at least one Derby winner the past four years, its ONLY California that hasn't. :rolleyes:

[Quagmire]

So if the rail wasn't open for MTB polytrack would be OK?

[Bobzilla]

So if the rail wasn't open for MTB polytrack would be OK?


Nope, because under that scenario POTN's nose hits the wire first but the stewards, feeling compelled to take a longer look at the bumping between the top 3, make MM your winner, PC is second and POTN is demoted to 3rd, thus extending the Cali syntho-jinx to 4 years ;) .... ....

Hope you know I'm kiddding with that one, Quagmire. Not a huge fan of what the CHRB did with the California tracks, but the argument that one can't run there and win the Derby is less than compelling. POTN ran a good race and I would expect him to move up after his most recent effort. If the originator wanted to make the argument that one might be at a disadvantage in the Derby if he were to experience fast early pace for the first time, regardless of surface type, then I might buy part of the argument.

[turfbar]

I hate to rub anyone the wrong way but I heard that California Highway Patrol has put out a search warrant for PIONEER of the NILE.

:D :D :D :D

Turfbar

[RHANDIE]

I hate to rub anyone the wrong way but I heard that California Highway Patrol has put out a search warrant for PIONEER of the NILE.

:D :D :D :D

Turfbar

I hope they're not going after him with Take The Points or Dunkirk.