LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION

[Lefty]

and that's regardless of what sillyzilly says.



http://arizonarighttolife.org/userfiles/File/new_life_begins_at_conception.pdf

[Lefty]

http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html

[46zilzal]

Meet Fred or Linda or even Spot the Cat

[JustRalph]

please God............can we get a moderator.......!!!

Close this thread!!!!

[Floyd]

I thought life began when the kids moved out and the dog died.

[Lefty]

Why Jr. I challenged zilly on another thread and evidently it cut into lsbets entertainment value. I have proved zilly to be wrong and now somehow i've offended you. I started this thread and if I am not happy thatall of a sudden you wanted it closed. You didn't ask for the despicable bestiality thread to be closed but this one that embraces a very serious debate. I'm surprised, really.

[Floyd]

BIRTH CONTROL IS MURDER!!!!!!

[Greyfox]

Life began when I went to a dance with Dad and came home with Mom.

[Lefty]

Floyd, sadly, there ain't know cure for what you got. JR, I think I now understand where you're coming from. The children on this board don't have enough synapses firing at the same time to have a serious discussion.

[Floyd]

Floyd, sadly, there ain't know cure for what you got. JR, I think I now understand where you're coming from. The children on this board don't have enough synapses firing at the same time to have a serious discussion.
Sheesh, Lefty, here I was agreeing with you that birth control is murder most foul and you insult me. I'm hurt. :(
But surely you'd agree that the death penalty would be a fitting punishment for any woman using contraception.

[Lefty]

floyd, hard to agree with something that hasn't been said. But I know where you're going with another convuuluted lib argument.

[Floyd]

floyd, hard to agree with something that hasn't been said. But I know where you're going with another convuuluted lib argument.
What do you mean? You said life begins at conception, therefore birth control is murder. It follows from your position. Now, what do we do with murderers? And do we do the same when they miscarry? How firm are you in your beliefs?

[Lefty]

Yep, that was the convuulted argument I knew you were going to present. It's not really hard to read the lib mind.
See if you can possibly understand this: Life starts at conception, scientists and doctors say that. It cannot possibly start BEFORE conception. Get it? probably not, but i hope and i hope.

[Floyd]

Yep, that was the convuulted argument I knew you were going to present. It's not really hard to read the lib mind.
See if you can possibly understand this: Life starts at conception, scientists and doctors say that. It cannot possibly start BEFORE conception. Get it? probably not, but i hope and i hope.
Maybe you ought to do a little research into how many popular forms of birth control work, then get back to me, O.K.? Your position on conception would preclude the use of many forms of contraception, which would lead to many more unwanted pregnancies. Unintended consequences, Lefty.
Or better yet: don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. Don't believe in abortion? Work to realistically prevent unwanted pregnancies. Don't believe in abortion? Adopt. How many kids have you adopted, Lefty?
I am continually amazed at how the extreme right-wing constantly whines about how they don't want the government telling them what doctor they can go to but they have no problem with the government telling a woman what kind of medical procedure she can undergo or who she can marry.

[Lefty]

Please don't tell me what I believe. I made it as clear as possible, but you want to pose a strawman argument. So, peddle it somewhere else. A 5 yr old could understand what I said.

[mostpost]

Maybe you ought to do a little research into how many popular forms of birth control work, then get back to me, O.K.? Your position on conception would preclude the use of many forms of contraception, which would lead to many more unwanted pregnancies. Unintended consequences, Lefty.
Or better yet: don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. Don't believe in abortion? Work to realistically prevent unwanted pregnancies. Don't believe in abortion? Adopt. How many kids have you adopted, Lefty?
I am continually amazed at how the extreme right-wing constantly whines about how they don't want the government telling them what doctor they can go to but they have no problem with the government telling a woman what kind of medical procedure she can undergo or who she can marry.
You're :lol: :lol: expecting lefty :lol: to do :lol: :lol: :lol: research :lol: :lol: Thanks, now I don't have to spend money at the local comedy club :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Floyd]

Please don't tell me what I believe. I made it as clear as possible, but you want to pose a strawman argument. So, peddle it somewhere else. A 5 yr old could understand what I said.
I'm afraid, Lefty, that you don't seem to understand what you're saying. Like I said, look it up. It's a simple "If>Then" statement. IF you believe life begins at conception, THEN you believe that birth control ends a life. That's what you are saying.

[Floyd]

You're :lol: :lol: expecting lefty :lol: to do :lol: :lol: :lol: research :lol: :lol: Thanks, now I don't have to spend money at the local comedy club :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks! Thanks! I'll be here all week!
Try the veal! Tip your waitress!
Better yet, skip the veal and try your waitress!

[Dahoss9698]

I just had a good laugh. The ad at the top of the page when I clicked on was for "pro life checks".

[Lefty]

well, post, congrats. Wrong again. I presented 2 links proving my point. The thread is not about birth control, floyd, thinking he's somehow presenting a new lib arument posed the birth control aspect. But he's wrong i've seen every dumbass lib argument.
BTW, floyd, the govt does not prevent a woman from having an abortion, or medical procedure as you say. The govt, is ok with it. And ok, i'll bite. What do you mean the govt tells women who they can marry? I'll prob regret it, though.

[Greyfox]

Thanks! Try the veal! Tip your waitress!
Better yet, skip the veal and try your waitress!

I tried my waitress, gave her a beef, and she said I was just "a little tipper."

[mostpost]

well, post, congrats. Wrong again. I presented 2 links proving my point. The thread is not about birth control, floyd, thinking he's somehow presenting a new lib arument posed the birth control aspect. But he's wrong i've seen every dumbass lib argument.
BTW, floyd, the govt does not prevent a woman from having an abortion, or medical procedure as you say. The govt, is ok with it. And ok, i'll bite. What do you mean the govt tells women who they can marry? I'll prob regret it, though.
Indeed you did. My bad. BUT, if you're so smart explain the cartoon posted by 46zilzal. Better yet, explain 46 zilzal :bang:

[mostpost]

well, post, congrats. Wrong again. I presented 2 links proving my point. The thread is not about birth control, floyd, thinking he's somehow presenting a new lib arument posed the birth control aspect. But he's wrong i've seen every dumbass lib argument.
BTW, floyd, the govt does not prevent a woman from having an abortion, or medical procedure as you say. The govt, is ok with it. And ok, i'll bite. What do you mean the govt tells women who they can marry? I'll prob regret it, though.

I hesitate to speak for someone else, but of course I will. I believe Floyd was saying you WANT the Government to tell a woman what kind of medical procedure she can or can't have. As long as it fits your world view. And you WANT the government to tell a woman who she can marry, IF she is marrying someone of her own sex.

[Lefty]

mostyposty, if that's what you think, then you'd be wrong again. Actually what's happening now is, the govt is telling a father, that if the mother wants an abortion, then there's not a damn thing he can do. He has no say.
Life begins at conception, but there are those, like zilly, that rationalize that abortion is ok, because a fetus is not life. But most doctors disagree with him.
There ya go.

[Lefty]

About that woman thing, it's what I thght it was, but why floyd didn't you also say men too? You were tryin to fool me. Not nice. I don't know how life begins at conception slips into gay marriage, but I think the people should decide, and right now it's the govt that goes to court to override the will of the people.

[mostpost]

Indeed you did. My bad. BUT, if you're so smart explain the cartoon posted by 46zilzal. Better yet, explain 46 zilzal :bang:
After further reflection, I take back my "My Bad." No, I don't, but I modify it. Because while you did post links here, you don't often. And you frequently post things which I later find to be inaccurate. Now you post two links that you say prove life begins at conception. I could find just as many that claim to prove it doesn't. But I'm not going to do that, because I actually agree with you. :eek: But, the truth is; none of us really know. Not only that, but before we can agree on when life begins, we need to agree on what life is. Is it the result of fertilization? Is it when the soul enters the body? Are they the same?
Abortion? Opposed. But do I have the right to tell a woman I do not know how to handle her body and her circumstances. I believe the woman and her physician are best equipped to make that decision. I do not believe a woman has an abortion because she "enjoys killing babies". I believe it is a decision she comes to because she feels no other option is open to her. I believe this is so in the vast overwhelming majority of cases.

[PaceAdvantage]

IF you believe life begins at conception, THEN you believe that birth control ends a life. That's what you are saying.Huh? It's kinda late/early, so maybe I'm just extree dumb right now, but how do you come to this point?

Contraception PREVENTS conception. The two most popular forms of birth control (condom/pill) PREVENT conception...they do not END conception.

But you know this. You're just here to have a little fun...so why act all serious?

[Burls]

See if you can possibly understand this: Life starts at conception, scientists and doctors say that.Who would deny that a developing human fetus is a living entity? If it wasn't alive, there would be no need for women with unwanted pregancies to have it killed through the use of medical technology.

The controversial issue is whether or not a living human fetus is the sort of entity that can intelligibly be said to have a right to life that trumps the right of a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to be in control the of the biological processes taking place in her own body.

[Tom]

One could rationally argue ( but not everyone!) that the woman had a choice to have prevented that biological process from ever beginning in her body.
Pregnancies do not randomly occur overnight. They are 99.99% of the time the result of a choice made by the woman.

[boxcar]

Who would deny that a developing human fetus is a living entity? If it wasn't alive, there would be no need for women with unwanted pregancies to have it killed through the use of medical technology.

The controversial issue is whether or not a living human fetus is the sort of entity that can intelligibly be said to have a right to life that trumps the right of a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to be in control the of the biological processes taking place in her own body.

The time to have taken control is a little late after the fact -- after a woman is pregnant. The time to have taken control and to have acted responsibly was before the fact, in order to avoid pregnancy. The primary reason behind most abortions is that women and sometimes couples, too, simply don't want the child. (As you yourself have said, "unwanted pregnancies".) The child would be an inconvenience for one reason or another. A child would upset someone's apple cart by interfering with a woman's or couple's life. Abortions-on-demand account for the vast majority of abortions.

Boxcar

[Floyd]

Huh? It's kinda late/early, so maybe I'm just extree dumb right now, but how do you come to this point?

Contraception PREVENTS conception. The two most popular forms of birth control (condom/pill) PREVENT conception...they do not END conception.

But you know this. You're just here to have a little fun...so why act all serious?
In an effort to prove my point I went to The Google looking for "The most popular form of birth control."
Guess what? The most popular form of birth control is... wait for it... Sterilization!
This is my surprised face. :eek:
The first link was from Planned Parenthood's "Teenlink." (http://www.teenwire.com/ask/2005/as-20050620p1053-sterilization.php)
Dear Experts,

Hi, I am doing a paper for health class and I want to know what is the most popular kind of birth control in America. Thanks!

healthstudent87, 06.20.05

The Answer:

Dear healthstudent87,

It is important for people who cut or intentionally injure themselves to reach out for help.

Cutting is an increasingly common form of self-injury. People often begin to injure themselves when they are teenagers.

Many psychologists and social workers believe that cutting and other forms of self-hurting are ways to release or express feelings that people find too difficult to deal with. Self-injury may be used to calm overwhelming and complicated emotional pain or translate it into something more clear and simple, like a cut or a burn."

See, wasn't that helpful? Ask a question about popular forms of birth control and you get an answer about cutting. And kids these days complain that adults never listen....
Although cutting was involved in my personal form of birth control... ouch.
We're all in agreement here. Abortion is a national tragedy. Anything we can do to reduce the rate of unwanted pregnancy we should do. But, I also agree with mostpost, in that I view abortion as a personal decision between a woman and her doctor. If it takes a national referendum to secure that right for women I'd be in favor of that. I was trying to make a "slippery slope" argument with contraception, which was pretty stupid on my part.

[46zilzal]

Indeed you did. My bad. BUT, if you're so smart explain the cartoon posted by 46zilzal. Better yet, explain 46 zilzal
Not a cartoon a trophoblast

[Greyfox]

Not a cartoon a trophoblast

I was once attached to something like that.:)

[cj's dad]

, Is it when the soul enters the body?

I believe this happens when a pregnant woman hears Smokey Robinson's
"Tracks Of My Tears" for the 1st time.

[cj's dad]

On a more serious note ! Here are a bunch of men debating abortion, not that we don't have that right, but it does seem a bit ludicrous that no women are involved.

Having said that,and I don't know why this incident sticks with me, but I remember Billie Jean King having an abortion while still actively playing tennis at a very high level. When asked about her decision to have the abortion, she stated very matter of factly that being pregnant at this time was not in the best interest of her career. So, a childs life was exterminated because she didn't want to be inconvienced.

Wonderful !!

[46zilzal]

No child was killed. A fetus was stopped in development. BIG difference.
I used to scrub in on multiple ETOPS (Elective Termination
of Pregnancy) and the array of women were over 45, mentally challenged, brittle diabetics, girls around 12/13.

Real life is what it is and is in the PERSONAL, exclusive domain of the INDIVIDUAL who has to go through it. NO ONE ELSE.

Ever seen a septic abortion and experience the horrible smell? See it once and you realize that no matter the way around it, these women will find a way. I would rather see them survive.

[Tom]

Only if you don't believe it is a human being.
Do fetuses sometimes result in dogs? Cats? Horses?
If left alone and not burned up or sucked to pieces, it will become a human being. That is enough for me.

[cj's dad]

Only if you don't believe it is a human being.
Do fetuses sometimes result in dogs? Cats? Horses?
If left alone and not burned up or sucked to pieces, it will become a human being. That is enough for me.

Tom, you're forgetting the one where if the fetus somehow survives, it can be murdered out of the womb on the table by a doctor plunging an instrument into it's brain while alive and self sufficient.

This form of "infanticide" was a yeah vote by BO while a US Senator from Illinois.
Strange that he didn't vote "present" for this one isn't it ??

[46zilzal]

Tom, you're forgetting the one where if the fetus somehow survives, it can be murdered out of the womb on the table by a doctor plunging an instrument into it's brain while alive and self sufficient.

This form of "infanticide" was a yeah vote by BO while a US Senator from Illinois.
Strange that he didn't vote "present" for this one isn't it ??
What science fiction are you quoting from? If a baby is pre-term or disfigured and deemed not to be able to survive, it dies. NO one kills the child. If it comes down to the mother's or the child's life the former takes precedence in the case of placenta preva or some such condition.

You make this up as you go along?

[Tom]

You are not talking about the same thing he was.

[cj's dad]

all these procedures take place while the infant is still in the womb? a legal necessity, i presume ! after all, once outside the womb and crying and kicking, I would think it would be difficult to assert that this "parasite" (ZZ 46 words, not mine) were not alive.

Please read the following carefully, if you can stomach it:

Late Term Abortion – The procedures
There are three general procedures of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions. The first and most popular is called D&E (Dilation and evacuation). Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These “pieces” of your baby will be removed one at a time. Vacuum aspiration is then used to ensure no tissue remains in the uterus.

The second procedure is early induction of labor. This is very painful and intense for the woman and is rarely used as an abortion procedure.

The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby’s leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby’s skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.


Isn't medical science a wonderful thing !!

[46zilzal]

I continually marvel at how non-medical people take on what they think are the realities of everyday in the OR when they have NEVER BEEN THERE AS A PRACTITIONER.
The Canadian Medical Association's abortion policy defines abortion as the active termination of a pregnancy up to 20 weeks of gestation (Canadian Medical Association, Policy on Induced Abortion, 1988). 90% of abortions in Canada are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and just over 9% of abortions take place between 12 and 20 weeks of gestation. A mere 0.4% of abortions take place after 20 weeks of gestation. These are considered late term abortions.

Why Late Term Abortions are Necessary

A very small number of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation primarily because the fetus is gravely or fatally impaired, or the woman's life or physical health is at risk, or both (Statistics Canada, Therapeutic Abortions, 1995). Many impairments or health risks are not detectable until after the 24th week of gestation.

THese procedures are rare

[Tom]

Canadian Stats have no meaning. We live in the USA.
Mass murders are rare, too.....should we ignore them?

[mostpost]

On a more serious note ! Here are a bunch of men debating abortion, not that we don't have that right, but it does seem a bit ludicrous that no women are involved.

Having said that,and I don't know why this incident sticks with me, but I remember Billie Jean King having an abortion while still actively playing tennis at a very high level. When asked about her decision to have the abortion, she stated very matter of factly that being pregnant at this time was not in the best interest of her career. So, a childs life was exterminated because she didn't want to be inconvienced.

Wonderful !!
I went to several sources (search Billie Jean King on abortion), and all of them say that her reason for having an abortion was that she felt her "Marriage was not solid enough to bring a child in the family" You may disagree that is a good reason to have an abortion, but it does show a concern for the type of life a child may lead.
Can you tell me where you read your version, or is it just something you heard
and believe is true because it fits your preconceptions?

[chickenhead]

if we rely on our old friend wikipedia -- we actually end up with interesting stats for both "sides' of the argument so far as late term abortions. Roughly 1.4% of abortions are late term (after 20 weeks). A small percentage, but still a fairly large number of actual abortions. It does roll off really rapidly with time, with only 0.08% done after 24 weeks.

There was some polling done as to why late term abortions occur, very few of them are for medical reasons. I thought the results were interesting.(some of them apparently had compound circumstances)

* 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
* 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
* 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
* 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
* 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
* 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
* 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
* 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
* 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
* 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
* 11% Other

My own personal view has always been that at some point there do begin to be shared rights between the fetus and the mother -- but any technical or theologically definition doesn't really matter -- we live in the real world and the arrangement of laws needs to work in the real world. I'm in favor on some increasingly stricter limits the later the term, while in favor of a strictly hands off approach for everything up to that. Is that contradictory on several levels? Yes. Who cares. I don't. The law and my morality have never exactly had much to do with each other.

[cj's dad]

Gee that must have been what 35-40 years ago. I do remember that she said it while being interviewed on TV. Could not believe the callousness in her voice when she said that. And, back then legal abortion was fairly new on the scene and I found her ambivalence quite disturbing. But then, that's just me; I have children and couldn't imagine what life would be like if any of them were not here.


I went to several sources (search Billie Jean King on abortion), and all of them say that her reason for having an abortion was that she felt her "Marriage was not solid enough to bring a child in the family" You may disagree that is a good reason to have an abortion, but it does show a concern for the type of life a child may lead.
Can you tell me where you read your version, or is it just something you heard
and believe is true because it fits your preconceptions?

[mostpost]

Tom, you're forgetting the one where if the fetus somehow survives, it can be murdered out of the womb on the table by a doctor plunging an instrument into it's brain while alive and self sufficient.

This form of "infanticide" was a yeah vote by BO while a US Senator from Illinois.
Strange that he didn't vote "present" for this one isn't it ??
Obama voted "Present" on one version and "No" on another. The reasons he gave for his vote on the floor of the Illinois Senate were one that he felt the bill was unconstitutional and would be overturned by the courts and, two, if it were not overturned by the courts, it could be interpreted to ban ALL abortions. His arguments can be found here.
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf
Pertinent pages are 84-90 with most of Obama's argument on 86 and 87.

On a later version of the bill he objected to the fact that the bill would undermine the Doctor-Patient relationship. At least that is how I understand it. His words in the Illinois Senate can be found here:
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST040402.pdf

Pages 28 to 35

[ArlJim78]

former "parasite" wins swimming ribbons (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519181,00.html). not bad.

here the "parasite" grabs on to the surgeons hand during fetal surgery four months prior to birth.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SgH-RmbPkQI/AAAAAAAAbdQ/HkcS6JbqjJI/s400/hand+of+hope.bmp

and here the former "parasite" shows off his swimming ribbons.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SgH_ZDBB35I/AAAAAAAAbdY/-kB2rxfx5m8/s400/samuel+armas.jpg

[Floyd]

Here's Pol Pot.
http://www.michaelgormley.com/asia/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/PolPot.JPG

Here's Adolph Hitler.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00681/adolf-hitler-joke-4_681576c.jpg

[Dahoss9698]

:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

After ArlJim's pictures, I'm sure there will be no more discussion from the defenders of the faith on how fetuses are not human until they pop out of the oven.

They tend to disappear when presented with interesting evidence. Or, they do really silly things, like post non sequitur images, or a reply consisting of only an emoticon, which I personally think is the BEST and most constructive sort of reply anyone can give here on PaceAdvantage.

[jballscalls]

After ArlJim's pictures, I'm sure there will be no more discussion from the defenders of the faith on how fetuses are not human until they pop out of the oven.

They tend to disappear when presented with interesting evidence. Or, they do really silly things, like post non sequitur images, or a reply consisting of only an emoticon, which I personally think is the BEST and most constructive sort of reply anyone can give here on PaceAdvantage.

just curious when he posted the link he said "parasite" in quotations, who is he quoting?? I'm assuming its probably a liberal politician, but just curious.

interesting pictures

[Light]

here the "parasite" grabs on to the surgeons hand during fetal surgery four months prior to birth.


Nice cherry picking. FYI, 90% of all abortions in this country are performed on fetuses under 12 weeks old or in the first trimester. An aborted fetus that is 4 months from being born is not representative of a typically aborted fetus.

[PaceAdvantage]

just curious when he posted the link he said "parasite" in quotations, who is he quoting?? I'm assuming its probably a liberal politician, but just curious.

interesting picturesBelieve it or not, the issue of abortion really isn't all that high on my own personal hit parade. So, I don't know who canned that phrase, although I'm pretty sure our own 46zilzal has used it at least once. But I could be wrong.

[Light]

Up till about 8 weeks old, a fetus has a tail. Now if Lefty thinks its still not ok at that point to have an abortion, I would advise him to treat other living creatures that have tails with the same respect as he would a fetus with a tail including cows which some consider sacred. Become vegetarian,back PETA and stop supporting wars that cost innocent lives.

[Lefty]

light, it's very telling that a guy(you) doesn't want this country to defend itself because someone might get killed to see nothing wrong with killing someone before they can even make it through the birth canal. You know what that makes you, don'tcha?

[ArlJim78]

just curious when he posted the link he said "parasite" in quotations, who is he quoting?? I'm assuming its probably a liberal politician, but just curious.

interesting pictures

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=680305&postcount=19

[Floyd]

After ArlJim's pictures, I'm sure there will be no more discussion from the defenders of the faith on how fetuses are not human until they pop out of the oven.

They tend to disappear when presented with interesting evidence. Or, they do really silly things, like post non sequitur images, or a reply consisting of only an emoticon, which I personally think is the BEST and most constructive sort of reply anyone can give here on PaceAdvantage.

Hey, I thought we were posting random pictures of people who weren't aborted. If there was actual, you know, evidence of anything, presented by ArlJim's pictures and article, beyond the obvious appeal to emotion, it wasn't articulated very well.

[ArlJim78]

Hey, I thought we were posting random pictures of people who weren't aborted. If there was actual, you know, evidence of anything, presented by ArlJim's pictures and article, beyond the obvious appeal to emotion, it wasn't articulated very well.
your pictures were random? I thought two of histories most notorious murderers seemed right on point here.

[Tom]

Hey, I thought we were posting random pictures of people who weren't aborted. If there was actual, you know, evidence of anything, presented by ArlJim's pictures and article, beyond the obvious appeal to emotion, it wasn't articulated very well. Maybe not to all, but those who were actually taking part in the discussion and not just trolling the thread got the point.

[jballscalls]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=680305&postcount=19

gotcha, thanks for pointing out Jim.

[Light]

light, it's very telling that a guy(you) doesn't want this country to defend itself because someone might get killed

I never said "no self defense". I've always said,"no unnecessary offense".


to see nothing wrong with killing someone before they can even make it through the birth canal. You know what that makes you, don'tcha?

Bottom line,it should not be up to government to tell people what they can and cant do with their bodies. They should be allowed to choose. What if you were forced to be a vegetarian and I was forced to eat meat. I dont think that's right. People should be free to choose and if they decide to change their minds through awareness,that's the answer.

[Tom]

light, that is not a good analogy. The key point here is that people against abortion believe that the fetus is alive. Pro-abortionists, if they truly believe their rhetoric, should leave it at that - it is not alive yet, but most, and we have seen it here, grab the extremes cases to support their argument - oly X percent, what about rape, what about deformities.......this is not being genuine - if the fetus is not alive, what does it matter what percent?

46 throws an interesting idea out there with his parasite comments. When does life begin? At birth? If so, 46's definition is void because a baby is just as viable a day prior to birth as the day of birth. IF it is at birth, then abortions up to a minute before should be acceptable. But now you are abortion a viable life form.

My observation is that those against abortion are typically solid in our reasoning - it is a alive.

When you talk about having the right to do what you want with your own body, can you rent it out for sex, or fill it with drugs? Can you parade it around naked?

[jballscalls]

tom, why do you say pro-abortionists?? i dont think anyone is actually pro them, they are pro the choice to have them, i know its knit picky, but it seems more the case.

[riskman]

When you talk about having the right to do what you want with your own body, can you rent it out for sex, or fill it with drugs? Can you parade it around naked?

Yes, and to add a 4th, you can top it off with an abortion.

[Tom]

tom, why do you say pro-abortionists?? i dont think anyone is actually pro them, they are pro the choice to have them, i know its knit picky, but it seems more the case.


Isn't being pro-choice the same as being pro-abortion?
You can't be pro-choice and anti-abortion, can you? :D

[46zilzal]

The best position is "hands off" and let the person involved decide.

[Light]

light, that is not a good analogy.

The reason I mention vegetarianism is because anti abortionists curse an abortion clinic on TV while eating their dinner of some poor defenseless animal stuffed all over their face. They are not coming from the right place. If they respected ALL life including animals and people of other countries,religion and race, I would respect that.

[Tom]

The best position is "hands off" and let the person involved decide.

Have you not been paying attention?
The question here is which person. :bang:

[Tom]

The reason I mention vegetarianism is because anti abortionists curse an abortion clinic on TV while eating their dinner of some poor defenseless animal stuffed all over their face. They are not coming from the right place. If they respected ALL life including animals and people of other countries,religion and race, I would respect that.

Most animals eat other animals, That is pretty much natural. We were meant to eat meat. Man has dominion over the animals.

I respect the hell out a good Strip Steak. :p

[46zilzal]

Have you not been paying attention?
The question here is which person.
Only ONE person gets pregnant ...It's in all the books

[Tom]

Only ONE person gets pregnant ...It's in all the books

And only one dies.
Like I said, pay attention.

Here's one for your expertise - conjoined twins.
One wants an abortion,the other doesn't.

[Dahoss9698]

The reason I mention vegetarianism is because anti abortionists curse an abortion clinic on TV while eating their dinner of some poor defenseless animal stuffed all over their face. They are not coming from the right place. If they respected ALL life including animals and people of other countries,religion and race, I would respect that.

Great post. It is a bit hypocritical seeing that most of the loudest voices against abortion here are also not too shy about how they feel about homosexuals, muslims, etc.

[jballscalls]

Most animals eat other animals, That is pretty much natural. We were meant to eat meat. Man has dominion over the animals.

I respect the hell out a good Strip Steak. :p

Timothy McVeigh once said "Humans shouldnt feel bad about eating meat. We need to get comfortable with our place in the food chain"

[Lefty]

light, First you worry about this countrey defending itself, and now you worry about people eating meat, but abortion bothers you not. I wonder about you...

[Lefty]

zilly, yes only one gets pregnant, but she doesn't do it alone. Like it or not, when a woman lays with a man, she's made a choice. After pregnancy it's no long JUSt her body. A simple equation that abortionists can't get through their zilly little heads.

[PaceAdvantage]

Great post. It is a bit hypocritical seeing that most of the loudest voices against abortion here are also not too shy about how they feel about homosexuals, muslims, etc.Like who? I can't even figure out who the loudest voices against abortion are in this thread.

It takes a certain amount of flair to turn a thread about abortion into the patented far-left mantra of bigotry and racism.

Like I said before, without racism, the Democratic party would cease to exist. It is in their best interest to keep racism and bigotry on the front burner for as long as they can. Point to it around every corner, especially ones where it clearly doesn't exist.

Since I would guess Lefty would be one of the loudest voices against abortion in this thread, let's ask him how he feels about Muslims and gays. Something tells me he has no problem with Muslims unless they are of the radical, "chop-the-head-off-westy" kind.

As far as homosexuals and lefty goes, I won't even begin to try and guess what his stance is...best to let him tell us...

[Dahoss9698]

Like who? I can't even figure out who the loudest voices against abortion are in this thread.

It takes a certain amount of flair to turn a thread about abortion into the patented far-left mantra of bigotry and racism.

Like I said before, without racism, the Democratic party would cease to exist. It is in their best interest to keep racism and bigotry on the front burner for as long as they can. Point to it around every corner, especially ones where it clearly doesn't exist.

Since I would guess Lefty would be one of the loudest voices against abortion in this thread, let's ask him how he feels about Muslims and gays. Something tells me he has no problem with Muslims unless they are of the radical, "chop-the-head-off-westy" kind.

As far as homosexuals and lefty goes, I won't even begin to try and guess what his stance is...best to let him tell us...

Read the thread again. It shouldn't be a mystery who is pro life and who is pro choice. I thought Light's point was a good one. That was why I commented. Frankly, I could care less what Lefty thinks. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

[Lefty]

Fair enough, I like all everyone that are not trying to injure this country and kill it's citizens. Muslims are not all haters of America, only the radical ones.
Since I've been in Vegas I've met my share of homosexuals and certainly have nothing against them . I had a gay guy working for me back in the 70's when I was a slot shift boss at the Ca Hotel, and they guy was the best worker I had and a helluva nice guy. I have no animosity towaeds any group, but there are individuals in any group, that I less than admire. Hope it answers the question.

[Lefty]

Gee, here i took time to post and now you don't care what I think. Nuts...

[Light]

When I denounced the 1/2 million children killed in Iraq by American sanctions resulting in starvation and disease,no one gave a shit. I was considered an asshole for sympathizing with the "enemy". A "Jihadist". And yet you want me to believe you really care about an unborn life. Why dont you guys care when America or Israel bombs the hell out of children. You are all just being politically correct to your right wing philosophy and are out of touch with reality.

[Lefty]

light, you are a mixed up guy. You don't give a crap about the unborn, yet you constamntly cite children and animals. I do think you are an america hater because of what you say and how you say it. You say America's sanctions against Iraq killed children. Bullshit. Why don't you blame the real culprit? That would be Saddam Hussein. You take every shot you can at America and Israel. You think we have no right to defend ourselves. light, you're the most in the dark individual i've ever encountered, in cyberspace or anywhere for that matter. Don't pretend to care about the children of the world and then condone the killing of them in the womb.

[Tom]

When I denounced the 1/2 million children killed in Iraq by American sanctions resulting in starvation and disease,no one gave a shit. I was considered an asshole for sympathizing with the "enemy". A "Jihadist". And yet you want me to believe you really care about an unborn life. Why dont you guys care when America or Israel bombs the hell out of children. You are all just being politically correct to your right wing philosophy and are out of touch with reality.

Because the US was not at fault. SH had all the stuff he and his own wanted through the illegal oil deals with the so-called great European nations. HE is the only one who denied his people. And we took him out. Good for us.

[Light]

You say America's sanctions against Iraq killed children. Bullshit. Why don't you blame the real culprit? That would be Saddam Hussein.

Your blaming Saddam is not even a remote excuse. Your country pulled the trigger over and over again till 1/2 million BORN children were dead for the sake of one man and you said "Good". That's insanity. You're not even worthy to discuss this subject.

Your attitude is a disgrace to all the unborn. They need protection from people like you. Your only interest for their birth into this world is if they agree with your politics. You are not a defender of the unborn. You would bomb their mothers to death if they dont agree with you. Stop this BS of your concern for them. You'd rather see them dead.

[jballscalls]

Light,

you said "your country" and you dont have a country listed on your profile. Just curious, where do you reside?