Papa Clem is in!

[Shelby]

What do you think?

[Relwob Owner]

What do you think?


Probably the favorite....is Bejerano up again?

[Jinxed]

Some may back out, but for the most part I think some of the owners/trainers are going to send their horses to the Preakness. I think they are still in shock over WTB winning. I think we shall see some new blood also, and that's always interesting. I hope it's a great field.

[Shelby]

Probably the favorite....is Bejerano up again?

I'm not sure. I can't find any information on that.

I didn't know until reading this article that Papa Clem got bumped by Pioneer of the Nile.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2009/May/04/Papa-Clem-confirmed-for-Preakness.aspx

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not sure. I can't find any information on that.

I didn't know until reading this article that Papa Clem got bumped by Pioneer of the Nile.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2009/May/04/Papa-Clem-confirmed-for-Preakness.aspx


He did.....one thing I find surprising is that there is so much speculation on this forum about the winner and no talk about how none of the jocks said anything about the POTN deal.....there was so much money at stake for the owners, bettors, etc. that someone should start digging into what is going on there....thanks for posting the article and maybe it has some answers!:)

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not sure. I can't find any information on that.

I didn't know until reading this article that Papa Clem got bumped by Pioneer of the Nile.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2009/May/04/Papa-Clem-confirmed-for-Preakness.aspx


Stute said this about the bumping....


I looked at the charts this morning and I was only beaten a nose and a head for second,” Stute said. “To be honest, Baffert’s horse [Pioneerof the Nile] came over and bumped me. If it were a normal race there might have been an inquiry. With any luck we could have been second.”



Doesnt this seem to raise a ton of questions????

Can the stewards at CD take a horse down?
Why didnt Coa or Bejerano object?
Why didnt any of the owners or trainers object?
Does anything go in the Derby in terms of fouls?


The "if this were a normal race" thing is strange and a bit disconcerting, isnt it?

[Shelby]

He did.....one thing I find surprising is that there is so much speculation on this forum about the winner and no talk about how none of the jocks said anything about the POTN deal.....there was so much money at stake for the owners, bettors, etc. that someone should start digging into what is going on there....thanks for posting the article and maybe it has some answers!:)

Not many answers....it surprised me, though, finding this out. I would think in such a high stakes race that every little rub and bump would be an inquiry.

[slewis]

Stute said this about the bumping....


I looked at the charts this morning and I was only beaten a nose and a head for second,” Stute said. “To be honest, Baffert’s horse [Pioneerof the Nile] came over and bumped me. If it were a normal race there might have been an inquiry. With any luck we could have been second.”



Doesnt this seem to raise a ton of questions????

Can the stewards at CD take a horse down?
Why didnt Coa or Bejerano object?
Why didnt any of the owners or trainers object?
Does anything go in the Derby in terms of fouls?


The "if this were a normal race" thing is strange and a bit disconcerting, isnt it?

Rel,

I posted on another thread why Coa didn't claim foul....

Regarding Stute, call me biased, but someone should tell him, Sir, if those 3 horses stay in path with no bumping, we know who easily runs second... add another 50 yards to the race and both those jocks might be getting a good look at Musket Man's butt.

[Quagmire]

Rel,

I posted on another thread why Coa didn't claim foul....

Regarding Stute, call me biased, but someone should tell him, Sir, if those 3 horses stay in path with no bumping, we know who easily runs second... add another 50 yards to the race and both those jocks might be getting a good look at Musket Man's butt.

I think MM is getting his picture taken in Baltimore.

[fmolf]

Probably the favorite....is Bejerano up again?
i love papa clem in this race ..I hope we can get 4/1 on him... i also hope they put a local jock up on him like rose or pimentel... bejarano gave him a terrible ride in the derby!he should stay out in polyfornia!

[Jinxed]

I guess because everyone still has lots of faith in the favorites, I'll once more bet the longshots and hope for the best. Anything could happen.

[Relwob Owner]

Rel,

I posted on another thread why Coa didn't claim foul....

Regarding Stute, call me biased, but someone should tell him, Sir, if those 3 horses stay in path with no bumping, we know who easily runs second... add another 50 yards to the race and both those jocks might be getting a good look at Musket Man's butt.



Agreed....seemed like it affected MM just as much....did you have a good time? Looking for the Coa info...which thread?

[miesque]

Historically speaking the Preakness is not the TC race to go looking for longshot winners, in fact since 1986 you only have two winners that paid over $20.00, Hansel at $20.20 and Bernardini at $27.80 with the average payout around $10.00. The longshot value is underneath with horses like Magic Weisner (45-1), Oliver's Twist (25-1) and Midway Road (20-1) coming in second to spice up the exacta even though the favorite won the race.

[newtothegame]

I guess because everyone still has lots of faith in the favorites, I'll once more bet the longshots and hope for the best. Anything could happen.

I am thinking a mixture of medium to longs on top, a few favorites in the middle...and a few longs on bottom. Now of course this is speculation as the field hasnt been set yet. But I would not be surprised to see a few horses garner money that I feel shouldnt. I think with this derby fresh in peoples minds, alot of the longs will be bet down over looking a few of the true favorites who might get 4 or 5-1. But, lets see the field and get a preakness selection thread going :eek:

[slewis]

Agreed....seemed like it affected MM just as much....did you have a good time? Looking for the Coa info...which thread?



To save you time, Coa told us after the race that he thought Bejarano caused the problem and since he knew he had beaten Papa Clem, he didn't claim.
After he got back to the room, he watched the replay and realized it was Gomez who caused the bumping with Pioneer into Papa Clem into us.
He felt that it didn't matter that in a race of this magnitude, they would not change the order of finish and we (owner Fein and myself) agreed.

Had a great time... it truly is a once in a lifetime deal...to do it 2 yrs in row, and to hit the board this time around, I feel very fortunate.
Derek has done a sensational job with this colt and is not getting enough recognition from the media.

[Relwob Owner]

To save you time, Coa told us after the race that he thought Bejarano caused the problem and since he knew he had beaten Papa Clem, he didn't claim.
After he got back to the room, he watched the replay and realized it was Gomez who caused the bumping with Pioneer into Papa Clem into us.
He felt that it didn't matter that in a race of this magnitude, they would not change the order of finish and we (owner Fein and myself) agreed.

Had a great time... it truly is a once in a lifetime deal...to do it 2 yrs in row, and to hit the board this time around, I feel very fortunate.
Derek has done a sensational job with this colt and is not getting enough recognition from the media.



good info....my wife had 40 to win and place on Musket Man so I just passed the info onto her....good job and sounds like an awesome experience....now get back to getting some people riled up

[Relwob Owner]

To save you time, Coa told us after the race that he thought Bejarano caused the problem and since he knew he had beaten Papa Clem, he didn't claim.
After he got back to the room, he watched the replay and realized it was Gomez who caused the bumping with Pioneer into Papa Clem into us.
He felt that it didn't matter that in a race of this magnitude, they would not change the order of finish and we (owner Fein and myself) agreed.

Had a great time... it truly is a once in a lifetime deal...to do it 2 yrs in row, and to hit the board this time around, I feel very fortunate.
Derek has done a sensational job with this colt and is not getting enough recognition from the media.


I have now heard it twice but I am pretty confused and disappointed that so many feel like no matter what happens in the Derby, because it is such a "big race", noone objects and noone can be taken down---I have heard this concept many times and never understood....so many posts about drugs and things and noone seems to be particularly outraged that the final order should have probably been changed.....it hurts the bettor, the owner and the trainer....I guess everyone in the really big races just accepts this is the way it is? Just in the Derby?

[PaceAdvantage]

It's the same as when the refs swallow their whistles late in a playoff game and just "let them play."

Unless it's insanely flagrant, it ain't getting called...just like in hockey, basketball, etc.

[Relwob Owner]

It's the same as when the refs swallow their whistles late in a playoff game and just "let them play."

Unless it's insanely flagrant, it ain't getting called...just like in hockey, basketball, etc.


That is what I figured. Good analogy and it frustrates me just as much as it does in other sports. I think that the rules should be the same for a 4K claimer as it should be for big races but thats just my opinion.

[Skanoochies]

On the topic of the Preakness isn`t the race limited to 14 starters at Pimlico?

[Jinxed]

I am thinking a mixture of medium to longs on top, a few favorites in the middle...and a few longs on bottom. Now of course this is speculation as the field hasnt been set yet. But I would not be surprised to see a few horses garner money that I feel shouldnt. I think with this derby fresh in peoples minds, alot of the longs will be bet down over looking a few of the true favorites who might get 4 or 5-1. But, lets see the field and get a preakness selection thread going :eek:

Now that I know Hull is going, this is a whole different game, but I will still bet the liveshots. I'm just going to key on him for some races.

[Cratos]

What do you think?

Papa Clem was one of my choices (Dunkirk was the other) to win the Derby and of the two Papa Clem had the worst of it during the running of the Derby in that he was bumped out of the gate, bumped again by Dunkirk, lastly bumped by POTN. This horse had a rough ride and still finished 4th on an off track.

If he starts in the Preakness, he will be a tough customer no matter which other horses go and this is not a slight against MTB, but I am not convinced.

[Robert Fischer]

musket rat should have been placed 2nd , with pioneer 4th...

It was a bad call.

[Relwob Owner]

musket rat should have been placed 2nd , with pioneer 4th...

It was a bad call.


Yep, couldnt agree more....I have always been disappointed with the idea that just because it is such a "big race" the Derby is thought to be exempt from any claims of foul, etc.....seems to be kind of backwards since there is so much money on the line and integrity wise to the public, is the most visible.

[Run Nicholas Run]

i love papa clem in this race ..I hope we can get 4/1 on him... i also hope they put a local jock up on him like rose or pimentel... bejarano gave him a terrible ride in the derby!he should stay out in polyfornia!


Agree with the factual opinion of Bajabignose, that was a
poor ride on may 2nd.
As for a new rider, Pimentel is actually a step down he is horrible.

How about Rosie Napravnik instead if Jeremy isnt available?

[fmolf]

Agree with the factual opinion of Bajabignose, that was a
poor ride on may 2nd.
As for a new rider, Pimentel is actually a step down he is horrible.

How about Rosie Napravnik instead if Jeremy isnt available?i would welcome that but is she strong enough if the going gets a bit rough in a 14 horse field?
i think it will be bejarano!who is your prelim pic to fill out the ex.?i am thinking hull/musketman

[TommyCh]

Regarding "race too sacred for an inquiry": Gotta remember the Derby is a huge corporate affair. CD Inc. being a huge factor. I doubt NBC would have stayed with the Derby if there had been an inquiry, and the CDI and YUM suits would not have been happy to have the "pageantry" of the winners ceremony cut out of the telecast. If the jocks and trainers imply that inquiries and objections are simply not done in the Derby, then apparently that is a concrete attitude/unwritten rule/implied directive, whatever you want to call it. Also, these corporations often find a way to avoid unpleasantness, ala 'we don't want no controversy after what happened last year.' The Kentucky Derby, if it hasn't become one already, is bordering on a joke of a race, certainly not representative of the great races we see the rest of the year. It compromises the ability of too many horses to run to even a semblance of their talent. I've had newbies ask me "do all horse races have 20 horses?" Uh, no. To hear of horses' nostrils and/or eyes get completely plugged with mud...

And yeah, I'll admit, I didn't make a dollar on the race. I still wouldn't pick Mine That Bird to win that race.

[JPinMaryland]

...' The Kentucky Derby, if it hasn't become one already, is bordering on a joke of a race, certainly not representative of the great races we see the rest of the year. It compromises the ability of too many horses to run to even a semblance of their talent ..


Other than MIne that Bird, nearly every horse ran formful on sat., and of those that didnt e.g. Friesan Fire had legit excuses. I didnt think much of Musket Man and he may have had exuces as well. Are there any other horses that you think were compromised?

I dont really buy this reasoning, at least not for last Sat.'s race. THere have been big derby disappointments in the past for sure, but I think I'd really need to see some stats before I conclude this.

[JPinMaryland]

Sorry, instead of "Musket Man" I meant to say "Dunkirk" who apparently was stepped on. Musket Man ran about as well as I thought

[Relwob Owner]

Regarding "race too sacred for an inquiry": Gotta remember the Derby is a huge corporate affair. CD Inc. being a huge factor. I doubt NBC would have stayed with the Derby if there had been an inquiry, and the CDI and YUM suits would not have been happy to have the "pageantry" of the winners ceremony cut out of the telecast. If the jocks and trainers imply that inquiries and objections are simply not done in the Derby, then apparently that is a concrete attitude/unwritten rule/implied directive, whatever you want to call it. Also, these corporations often find a way to avoid unpleasantness, ala 'we don't want no controversy after what happened last year.' The Kentucky Derby, if it hasn't become one already, is bordering on a joke of a race, certainly not representative of the great races we see the rest of the year. It compromises the ability of too many horses to run to even a semblance of their talent. I've had newbies ask me "do all horse races have 20 horses?" Uh, no. To hear of horses' nostrils and/or eyes get completely plugged with mud...

And yeah, I'll admit, I didn't make a dollar on the race. I still wouldn't pick Mine That Bird to win that race.


I generally agree with everything you said the reasons are for the lack of objections and it proves just how backwards the thinking is from the corporations and the tracks....Saturday, racing ran a big risk of taking an integrity hit because every fan, from the casual to the serious one, could sit there and wonder whay a horse that broke the rules was allowed to stay in second place.....the attitiude in place is more likely to cause controversy and will at some point in the future IMHO.

[Relwob Owner]

Agree with the factual opinion of Bajabignose, that was a
poor ride on may 2nd.
As for a new rider, Pimentel is actually a step down he is horrible.

How about Rosie Napravnik instead if Jeremy isnt available?


I would stick with Bejerano....I think Saturday he just had a bad day....


Couldnt disagree with you more about Pimentel... He hit at 18 precent at Laurel without always getting the best mounts and is 32 percent so far at Pimlico....I dont see how that can be described as "horrible".....

[fmolf]

I would stick with Bejerano....I think Saturday he just had a bad day....


Couldnt disagree with you more about Pimentel... He hit at 18 precent at Laurel without always getting the best mounts and is 32 percent so far at Pimlico....I dont see how that can be described as "horrible".....
i agree ......rose is a good aggressive rider and so is pimentel....but i think we will have bejarano up....maybe with a dry track and less horses to contend with he can get us home first!!

[Relwob Owner]

i agree ......rose is a good aggressive rider and so is pimentel....but i think we will have bejarano up....maybe with a dry track and less horses to contend with he can get us home first!!


Me too