A-Rod

[John_Dobson986]

More news today about A-Rod came out today with some new news that he took steroids on the Yankees now & even took em through High School. I am seriously sick of hearing it and ESPN is making me feel like turning the damn TV off.

Do you guys care about this or is it "old news."

[Show Me the Wire]

Old news common problem now. Should have been dealt with during the rise of Sammy Sosa.

[OTM Al]

Completely fail to care. The language in the exerpt is that of innuendo and rumor and not fact anyway. I really doubt this book sells at all and I have no idea what the point was anyway.

[John_Dobson986]

I'm sick of the A-Rod BS. I hope the book fails, but I doubt it will.

[melman]

As much as I detest most of the modern media and there "gotcha" articles and books based on next to nothing we still have to remember that A-Roid did admit to cheating the game by using roids. That part is a fact.

What I get sick of hearing is that he is the "best player in the game today" repeated over and over again. Give me Mr Albert Pujols who does everything as well as A-Roid and without the "juice" at anytime in his career.

[Show Me the Wire]

I give him credit for admitting. Acknowledgement of wrong doing is a better position than denying wrong doing like certain pitchers with hall of fame credentials.

BTW did you see the colorful nickname, supposedly bandied about in the clubhouse about A-rod. Supposedly, it described a physical change to his body?

[OTM Al]

As much as I detest most of the modern media and there "gotcha" articles and books based on next to nothing we still have to remember that A-Roid did admit to cheating the game by using roids. That part is a fact.

What I get sick of hearing is that he is the "best player in the game today" repeated over and over again. Give me Mr Albert Pujols who does everything as well as A-Roid and without the "juice" at anytime in his career.

Don't be so sure....

[melman]

Al---In MLB I'm not sure of anything. :) However the facts are A-Roid has admitted cheating and so far at least no one has accused Pujols. He hits for avg, hits with power, drives in runs, has very few strikeouts for a power hitter, runs the bases well, and is a very good defensive first baseman. Plus he has a WS ring.

[melman]

Saw today a new Sporting News Poll of the "best players" in the game.

1. Albert Pujois

2. Alex Rodriquez

3. Johan Santana

This was selected by a panel of 100 Hall of Famers, major award winners and other baseball personalities.

It's all subjective of course but I have no problem with the top three picks. What amazes me is that the name of Ryan Howard is not found in the top 10. All Howard does is year after year hit 45-50 HR's and drive in over 140 runs.

[OTM Al]

It's all subjective of course but I have no problem with the top three picks. What amazes me is that the name of Ryan Howard is not found in the top 10. All Howard does is year after year hit 45-50 HR's and drive in over 140 runs.

Most take points away from Howard due to the low batting average and large number of strikeouts. Of course I'd take a 1-4 with 3 strikeouts and a 3 run homer about any day......

[DanG]

Side note: If the Ray’s offered Evan Longoria for A-Rod straight up, the Yankees would throw in 7 monuments and set a land speed record in a limousine making that deal.

BTW: Price in his two starts has had a fastball that is rarely seen in a left hander. Just awesome velocity so far.

[Valuist]

Interesting discussion on the local sports radio station yesterday. While the steroid era hitting numbers are inflated, there are other periods where numbers got inflated. How about in the 1930s? You basically didn't have relief pitchers, or at least they were a fraction of what they are today. It also was the "pre-brown/black" era where there were no Latin or black players so the talent pool was considerably smaller. If Satchel Paige didn't make his major league debut until age 46 and he was successful at that point, either a) he was really, really damned good before mainstream America got to see him, or b) the talent level in MLB at that point was subpar.

[OTM Al]

Side note: If the Ray’s offered Evan Longoria for A-Rod straight up, the Yankees would throw in 7 monuments and set a land speed record in a limousine making that deal.

BTW: Price in his two starts has had a fastball that is rarely seen in a left hander. Just awesome velocity so far.

Of course they would because he is A-Rod 10 years younger and a whole lot cheaper. That's just business. Hopefully Evan will have as good of a career as Alex so far, because he sure looks good, but right now he is potential while Alex has a career's worth of stats behind him and is still playing very well. His impact on the Yankees after his return has been tremendous.

[DanG]

Of course they would because he is A-Rod 10 years younger and a whole lot cheaper.
You left out he’s flat out better right now Al, not to mention when its late season and your down a run he doesn’t go AWOL.

Evan is banged up at the moment however; bad elbow is more concern then the hamstring.

[njcurveball]

You left out he’s flat out better right now Al, not to mention when its late season and your down a run he doesn’t go AWOL.

Evan is banged up at the moment however; bad elbow is more concern then the hamstring.


You are a great handicapper Dan, but your baseball compass is broken.

I give you a pass on the injury excuse for Longoria, but you have to also give Arod a pass for his early season struggles coming off surgery as well.

As for late season and going AWOL, did you watch the World Series last year? The Phillies handled Mr. "I am better than Arod" longoria like a $3 suitcase. If Arod had a series like that, there would have been enough written about it to make a Dan Brown trilogy! :eek:

As for the rest of the post season he was average at best. NO Mr. October t-shirt on his chest at this point. 4 for 15 in the divison series, 7 for 27 in the championship and ONE for TWENTY in the biggest series of his life. And with 9 strikeouts. At this point in his career he is a .450 strikeout player in big games.

I like the guy and would love to have him on my team, but he is no Reggie Jackson until he performs under the big lights and gets some rings. Same with Arod, he needs to perform in October and will probably get his chance this year.

If you are saying a healthy Evan is flat out better than a healthy Arod, given the same salary and a choice for GMs for one season, I doubt more than a few would pick Mr. Longoria at this point in his career.

He could be great, almost as good as Arod, but doubtful he will get to 600 home runs after 17 seasons with a lifetime 300 average as Arod has a chance to do this year.

[DanG]

You are a great handicapper Dan, but your baseball compass is broken.

I give you a pass on the injury excuse for Longoria, but you have to also give Arod a pass for his early season struggles coming off surgery as well.

As for late season and going AWOL, did you watch the World Series last year? The Phillies handled Mr. "I am better than Arod" longoria like a $3 suitcase. If Arod had a series like that, there would have been enough written about it to make a Dan Brown trilogy! :eek:

As for the rest of the post season he was average at best. NO Mr. October t-shirt on his chest at this point. 4 for 15 in the divison series, 7 for 27 in the championship and ONE for TWENTY in the biggest series of his life. And with 9 strikeouts. At this point in his career he is a .450 strikeout player in big games.

I like the guy and would love to have him on my team, but he is no Reggie Jackson until he performs under the big lights and gets some rings. Same with Arod, he needs to perform in October and will probably get his chance this year.

If you are saying a healthy Evan is flat out better than a healthy Arod, given the same salary and a choice for GMs for one season, I doubt more than a few would pick Mr. Longoria at this point in his career.

He could be great, almost as good as Arod, but doubtful he will get to 600 home runs after 17 seasons with a lifetime 300 average as Arod has a chance to do this year.
No doubt my compass is broken Jim; we are discussing two players who I have strong feelings about and that’s the genesis of sports.

You’re missing a broken forearm from Longoria for the remainder of the year and his swing wasn’t close to what it was healthy. Always fun to hit live pitching coming off injury when its ’30 degrees in a sleet storm! The guy has driven in more clutch runs in his short span then Mr. May has in any 5 years, not to mention in the bottom of the 9th its not even close at 3rd.

A-Rod is a fantasy’s players dream. He stuffs the stats in 9-1 games better then anyone in history. He shrinks from the big moments, has stone hands under fielding pressure has the 3rd person personality of Carl Lewis that inspires no one.

Wow…we really see this one different Jim (not that that’s a bad thing) I think your ‘180 off on the GM count. The Yankees themselves would have a heart attack from joy if that deal was offered.

No doubt your right about career #’s. Fortunately for the next few years I get to watch a player I respect (as I do Jeter) and for my viewing pleasure that’s almost as important as their production. Championships in this division with this salary structure will be like $9,500 gelding winning the Derby :faint: , You could stack all the production of Reggie, Bonds, and A-Rod in a burning pile and I would have to think twice about relieving myself to put it out.

Thanks Jim! I was a little tired this morning and now I’m raring to go! Best of luck betting today and please ask your Yank’s to take it easy on the small market / 10 players on the DL Rays.

BTW: You know more about baseball then anyone outside of my brother that I know. No doubt in a black and white sense your right and can talk circles around my knowledge…but when your in a division with ‘the Nation and the’ Empire who have come to Tampa for 10 years and beat you like a step child; the rational side of your brain can go bye-bye. Hence the word “fan” that is derived from “Philly Fanatic” :)

[njcurveball]

You’re missing a broken forearm from Longoria for the remainder of the year and his swing wasn’t close to what it was healthy. Always fun to hit live pitching coming off injury when its ’30 degrees in a sleet storm! The guy has driven in more clutch runs in his short span then Mr. May has in any 5 years, not to mention in the bottom of the 9th its not even close at 3rd.



Arod will always be a whipping post, as was Barry Bonds and even Hank Aaron before him. Top Dog always gets a target on their back.

And Arod will never get a pass for playing injured. His hip did not just spring up from dating Madonna. But the Press has never coddled him and the steroid issue just gives them another round of ammunition.

The premiere "club" in baseball has always been the 500 home run club. Collectors would rather have a bat signed by everyone in the group than a night out with Giselle or Madonna or even Angelina Jolie.

Arod was and probably will always be the youngest to join that club. I certainly do not have time to analyze each and every home run, but I can assure you that the difference between Mr. Longoria hitting them with the bases empty in the first 5 innings isn't much with Arod doing it. Should he get penalized for hitting more home runs?

He does have 1,628 lifetime RBI and there are only 3 players in the history of baseball to go over 2,000 in that category. Four more years and he will join that club.

I agree he needs some rings on his finger, but guess what? He has just as many as Evan right now. We can discuss "clutch" and put the name Dennis Rodman in that picture. He played 14 years and won 5 championships. And he once wrestled the "Macho Man". :rolleyes:

Give Evan some time to get some rings and I may be right behind you on this. But given a man with 500+ home runs, 1600+ rbi, and a chance to lead all time in those categories and I have to disagree until I see different.

You are being a "homer" here, and that is great! You are a fan of a team that did the impossible, but remember they did not win it all.

Here is an interesting web page for stat lovers. Arod has hit 190 home runs with his team behind and 155 with the game tied. He has hit 73 home runs with the team leading by 4 runs or more. Take all of those away, have him retire today and Evan still probably will not catch him.

He also has hit 151 in the last 3 innings.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?t=b&n1=rodrial01

Chipper Jones who people say is clutch and a winner has hit 116 of his 413 in the last 3 innings.

And Arod has 8 walk off homers, 46 tying, and 188 go ahead.

You let me know how Evan is doing.

[cj]

Everything you say is true. He is also a cheater.

[DanG]

Some fair points Jim and I’ll be the first to admit I’m a homer in sports. No doubt the reason I SUCKED betting them and no longer do it.

I see the Rays almost everyday so I don’t need a stat sheet to tell me what’s happening. I weight the trailing 3-2 situations off tough pitchers completely differently then a blanket last 3=inning number. If you pole the Rays players to a man they would tell you Evan is the man they want up…if you silent pole the Yankee players I really wonder how many would choose Mr. May?

I view “championships” different in sports however, I view each players contribution separately…but these are ”team” sports and rings are handed to teams, not individuals per-say. The dynamic that goes into a team’s performance can get lost on a baseball stat sheet. The Rays this year dwarf last years offensive numbers, but when they score and their median production is not nearly as effective as last year.

Down here Jim; the Rays didn’t “lose” last year. It was 110% mission accomplished after beating the Bo-Sox and the WS was an after-thought to be honest with that brutal weather etc.

Time to go racing…thanks for the rational discussion on your part and for tolerating my emotional rant! :D

[Marshall Bennett]

Everything you say is true. He is also a cheater.
Yeah ... are cheaters worth all this coverage ? :)

[DanG]

How sweet was that 1st inning HR Jim?

He only missing down here was the infamous John Sterling call. :D
http://janeheller.mlblogs.com/arod.hr.o%27s.jpg

[DanG]

Jim with your baseball record you know how this will play out…

5-3 Rays in the 7th and this thread is all set up for an A-Rod ‘3 run bomb in the 9th to shut me up. If and when he hits it I think my sports posting privileges will be rightfully revoked! :D

[njcurveball]

All Tampa Bay today Dan, hope you enjoyed Rivera imploding and Arod grounding out in a big spot.

Is there even one good reliever between those 2 teams? Oh wait, there are two and both them are starting. Tampa needs to Price in the pen and the Yanks need Joba there.

No heroics for the pinstripes today depsite scoring 4 runs in the 8th and 9th.

The beat goes on. As for the cheating stuff, it seems that no one knows what is cheating and what isn't.


when Pete Rose showed up in the Phila clubhouse with a Pharmacy in his bag, baseball turned it's head. I would love to see if they gave Mantle more than coffee after his late night drinking binges.

Perhaps we have to go back to the Babe for the last true "drug free" bomber?

Paradigm changes come over time. Todays Belmont is being run with all 10 horses using Lasix. 20 years ago trainers were worried their horse could run in New York without lasix and 40 years ago they ran the entire triple crown without lasix.

I would be curious if the people accusing Arod of cheating are so naive they think he is one of the few to take something.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would be curious if the people accusing Arod of cheating are so naive they think he is one of the few to take something.I doubt anyone is naive anymore.

Steroids have been around competitive sports since the 50s and 60s, so it's not really clear, as you say, how far one needs to look back to find a relatively clean game...

[OTM Al]

The thing many people who just scream cheater also never seem to remember is that the steroids don't make you strong by themselves. They simply give you the ability to work your ass off during the season so you can stay strong. Maybe this is why I just don't care that much. I'd prefer they were taking nothing, but at least they don't just magically get the result from them. Besides that, baseball is and always has been a game about cheating and trying to get away with it.

[cj]

I doubt anyone is naive anymore.

Steroids have been around competitive sports since the 50s and 60s, so it's not really clear, as you say, how far one needs to look back to find a relatively clean game...

Agreed, but clearly there was a "boom" right around the time baseball really needed one. A-Rod, if I remember correctly, averaged 14 more home runs per year during the years he admitted to taking steroids. Of course I have no reason to believe him because he has proven not only a cheater, but a liar.

It is obvious they do change performance. They do make you stronger as an end result. The reason I care is baseball has suffered because of it. A lot of the strategy and intricacies of the game are gone or severely neglected. Maybe with a clean game, it will be a better game.

[Marshall Bennett]

The thing many people who just scream cheater also never seem to remember is that the steroids don't make you strong by themselves. They simply give you the ability to work your ass off during the season so you can stay strong. Maybe this is why I just don't care that much. I'd prefer they were taking nothing, but at least they don't just magically get the result from them. Besides that, baseball is and always has been a game about cheating and trying to get away with it.
I have the impression you are ok with steroids and sports in general . Okay , lets go with that for a moment . Do you draw a line anywhere where human function can be substituted by chemical enhancement ? Eventually drugs will be produced that will dwarf what they're using today . I beleive to turn our backs on what has become a tragedy in modern day sports is the beginning of the end of sports in general . Where does it end ? You tell me ?

[Valuist]

I've never heard anyone say anything about steroid use in the 50s and 60s. To my knowledge, the first talk of steroids was in the bodybuilding world in the 1970s. Arnold and Franco Columbo acknowledged they were users in the early/mid 70s.

[OTM Al]

I have the impression you are ok with steroids and sports in general . Okay , lets go with that for a moment . Do you draw a line anywhere where human function can be substituted by chemical enhancement ? Eventually drugs will be produced that will dwarf what they're using today . I beleive to turn our backs on what has become a tragedy in modern day sports is the beginning of the end of sports in general . Where does it end ? You tell me ?

No, not ok with it, but I also don't see it as the beginning of the end either. Sports are entertainment and nothing more no matter how we glorify them. We showed we were enamored with the home run, so they did whatever they could to give it to us. There is nothing inherantly better about those who played before there was ready access to these drugs because they would have done it too if they had the chance. The heros of yesterday are no more noble than the players of today.

As I said, because of the fact that the athletes still had to work very hard to be stronger, its not like they were getting something for nothing. Maybe such wonder drugs as you predict will be around some day. Players will use them. There is nothing that will stop them. There is no end. If that idea bothers you so much, then maybe it is time for you to walk away from it all. I wouldn't blame you for it, but nothing you or I or anyone does will ever overcome what is basic human nature. And we wanted it, whether we knew it or not.

[DanG]

njcurveball ~ Is there even one good reliever between those 2 teams?

We will gladly take Rivera Jim if the Yank’s are tired of him! :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

I've never heard anyone say anything about steroid use in the 50s and 60s. To my knowledge, the first talk of steroids was in the bodybuilding world in the 1970s. Arnold and Franco Columbo acknowledged they were users in the early/mid 70s.Steroids were first banned in the Olympics in 1967, so obviously they were in use before that date.

In 1954, a physician named John Ziegler attended the World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria, as the team's doctor. The Soviets dominated the competition that year, easily breaking several world records and winning gold medals in legions of weight classes. According to anecdotal reports, Ziegler invited the Soviet´s team doctor to a bar and the doctor told him that that his lifters had used testosterone injections as part of their training programs. Whether that story is true or not, ultimately, the Americans returned from the World Championships that year and immediately began their efforts to defeat the Soviets using pharmaceutical enhancement.
As you may have expected, when they returned to the United States, the team doctor began administering straight testosterone to his weightlifters. He also got involved with Ciba, the large pharmaceutical firm, and attempted to synthesize a substance with strength enhancing effects comparable or better than testosterone's. In 1956, Methandrostenolone (/Dianabol.php) was created, and given the name "Dianabol".

In the following years, little pink Dianabol tablets found their way into many weightlifter´s training program, fast forward a few years, and in the early 1960s, there was a clear gap between Ziegler´s weightlifters and the rest of the country, and much less of one between them and the Soviets. It was also in the 1960´s that another anabolic steroid had been developed and used to treat short stature in children with Turner Disease syndrome (13)http://www.steroid.com/main.php

[OTM Al]

Book sales much as I thought.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4248828