Bris "CR" or Race Class

[1GCFAN]

How do they come up with the number? Friesan Fire has a RC of 124 for the G2 Louisana Derby. Higher than the other prep winners.

[MNslappy]

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A "RACE" RATING AND A "CLASS" RATING ?
A RACE RATING measures the overall quality of horses which actually competed in a race - the higher the number, the tougher the competition. A CLASS RATING measures a horse's actual performance in a race - the higher the number, the better the performance.

WHO CREATES THE RACE & CLASS RATINGS ?
The Race & Class Ratings are generated daily by computers at Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc.. A Race Rating is calculated for EVERY RACE in North America. And a Class Rating is calculated for EVERY START of all horses in North America.

WHAT IS THE THEORY UNDERLYING THE RACE & CLASS RATINGS?
The Race & Class Ratings are based on the premise that a horse's performance in any given race can be accurately gauged by considering the horses which the individual has beaten; those that have beaten him; and by the margins involved. Final Time is NOT a factor used in calculating the ratings.

HOW ARE THE RACE & CLASS RATINGS CALCULATED ?
Using proprietary computer algorithms, the recent Class Ratings for ALL horses in their recent races are calculated, adjusted and then recalculated every time ANY horse crosses a finish line. This calculation process creates complex inter-relationships among ALL thoroughbred racehorses regardless of the track, distance, surface, or country the horses actually ran at. What makes the Race & Class Ratings such a powerful handicapping tool is the daily updates and constant adjustments made to the ratings which reflect the subsequent performances of ALL horses in EVERY race. The net result of this extensive data crunching is reliable, objective data which can accurately quantify the relative merit of any thoroughbred racehorse's performance.

HOW SHOULD A HANDICAPPER USE THE RACE & CLASS RATINGS ?
The RACE Ratings are excellent tools for identifying which horses have truly been facing the toughest or weakest competition. Like the popular "Key Race" concept but more accurate, the Race Ratings accurately identify "class within class" - that is, they will separate the strong and weak fields of identical race types.

The CLASS Ratings provide a convenient means for comparing the relative merits of each horse's recent races to that of it's competitors. Want to catch more winners? Begin incorporating the BRIS CLASS Ratings into your handicapping. One of the great benefits of using them is you'll spot winning horses which the speed handicappers miss. Look for the horse with the highest recent class ratings. You'll be amazed how many more tickets you'll cash.

HOW MANY POINTS ARE CONSIDERED A "SIGNIFICANT" EDGE IN THE CLASS RATINGS ?
A one point edge over a competitor is considered "significant" and an edge of two or more points is considered a "substantial" advantage.

WHAT ARE SOME TYPICAL RACE & CLASS RATINGS FOR 3&UP MALES ?

Race Winner's
Rating Class Rating

An average Grade I stakes race ............ 120 123

An average "OPEN" Claiming $10,000 race ... 112 115

An average Maiden Claiming $10,000 race ... 105 108
The best races (Grade 1 older stakes males) will typically receive a RACE RATING in the 120-125 range. And the winner of these races will typically earn a CLASS RATING in the 123 to 127 range. A $10,000 "Open" Claiming race for older males will typically receive a RACE RATING in the 111-112 range. And the winner of these races will typically earn a CLASS RATING in the 114 to 115 range.

A $10,000 Maiden Claiming race for older males will typically receive a RACE RATING in the 105-106 range. And the winner of these races will typically earn a CLASS RATING in the 108-109 range.




It's interesting you ask this question because I've been considering these numbers myself lately. I really started paying closer attention to them just recently and am finding that at certain tracks and for certain conditions they've been quite useful in separating out non-contenders and horses who clearly dont have a chance at the level they're attempting on that given day.

[fmolf]

It's interesting you ask this question because I've been considering these numbers myself lately. I really started paying closer attention to them just recently and am finding that at certain tracks and for certain conditions they've been quite useful in separating out non-contenders and horses who clearly dont have a chance at the level they're attempting on that given day.
i have found bris ultimate to be the most accurate pp's giving me the most information for the best price.... i am a big fan?....It did take me awhile to learn how to use them but the have a good help section on their website ...click on library from the home page menu... i think you'll find this helpful..those excerpts were directly form them

[Oaklawn]

i have found bris ultimate to be the most accurate pp's giving me the most information for the best price.... i am a big fan?....It did take me awhile to learn how to use them but the have a good help section on their website ...click on library from the home page menu... i think you'll find this helpful..those excerpts were directly form them

The class and race ratings are fantastic IMHO. Many, many allowance races are no step up from claimers at certain levels and I wouldn't know that without the ratings. A great time saver. This helps me tremendously with the class aspect. I like to look at what race rating a horse has won at recently and compare that with the competition.

[CBedo]

I wish the class and race ratings were in the drf data file.

[cmoore]

Who cares about conditions of a race when you got race and class ratings??

Been using them for years..

[fmolf]

Who cares about conditions of a race when you got race and class ratings??

Been using them for years..
they certainly are very informative and i look for a class rating at or around the race rating ....this tells me that a runner was not outclassed.... would like to hear how other players use them ...

[redeye007]

bris RR ( race ratings) are a solid indicator of level of competition. some time ago bris offered a free software program called "common ground" that used bris class ratings as it's primary figure. 90% of the time the winner was in the top 3. for some reason bris figures don't seem to be as effective as they were a few years back, but are still a valuable handicapping tool for those who use them.

[bobphilo]

I find the Bris Class ratings an excellent indicator of a horses ability and their selections pay more than the more popular speed figures. I have worked out a conversion table to equalize the 2 and take an average to get a speed class rating. After all, the 2 best ways to determine a horse's ability is 1) how fast it ran compared to other horses (speed figures) and 2) who it beat and who beat it and by how much (class rating). My rough conversion is that a 90 Bris speed rating is equivalent to a 117 class rating and for each point deviation up or down in class add or subtract 2 speed figure points.

CJ, would you be able to do a table or post a formula to convert Bris Class ratings to Bris Speed ratings or vice-versa? Mine is based on too small a sample and I'd appreciate anything you'd find.

Bob

[fmolf]

I find the Bris Class ratings an excellent indicator of a horses ability and their selections pay more than the more popular speed figures. I have worked out a conversion table to equalize the 2 and take an average to get a speed class rating. After all, the 2 best ways to determine a horse's ability is 1) how fast it ran compared to other horses (speed figures) and 2) who it beat and who beat it and by how much (class rating). My rough conversion is that a 90 Bris speed rating is equivalent to a 117 class rating and for each point deviation up or down in class add or subtract 2 speed figure points.

CJ, would you be able to do a table or post a formula to convert Bris Class ratings to Bris Speed ratings or vice-versa? Mine is based on too small a sample and I'd appreciate anything you'd find.

Bob
i believe the rr or race rating is what measures the level of competition a horse has been facing... the class rating measures how the horse ran in that race against that competition... so a high race rating means nothing if the class rating is low meaning the horse was not competitive

[cmoore]

Many times you'll see a claiming race getting a higher Race Rating then an allowance race...Sometimes mdn claiming races will have a higher race rating then a MSW race..These examples can give you a big advantage when they occur..

Let's not forget the pace figures either..IMO, these figures are just as important as the race and class rating figs..I use tsnhorse pps..They seem to be more accurate then brisnet pps..

When I first started to use bris ultimate pps..I tried using the prime power number in my handicapping..But now I ignore that figure altogether..

When I handicap I look at pace ratings first then race ratings and then class ratings.. When betting maidens..I look at the sires first..

[bobphilo]

i believe the rr or race rating is what measures the level of competition a horse has been facing... the class rating measures how the horse ran in that race against that competition... so a high race rating means nothing if the class rating is low meaning the horse was not competitive

That is correct, the Race rating measures the class level of the field. the Class rating measures horses performance. I average the Class rating with the Speed figure. Both are measures of the horse's performance.
I do not use the Race rating to evaluate a horses performance
If one is going to use the Race Class rating, you have incorporate some form factor to indicate how well the horse did at that Race Class level. That's what the Class rating does.

Bob

[Big Bill]

bobphilo,

In your post you stated that your rough conversion is that a 90 Bris speed rating is equivalent to a 117 class rating and for each point deviation up or down in class add or subtract 2 speed figure points.

If I understand that correctly, a class rating of 118 would be equivalent to a 92 BRIS speed rating and a class rating of 116 would be equivalent to a 88 BRIS speed rating. Right? Or do you make adjustments to your conversion that you didn't mention?

Sure wish CJ, would do your requested table or post a formula to convert Bris Class ratings to Bris Speed ratings or vice-versa.

Big Bill

[fmolf]

That is correct, the Race rating measures the class level of the field. the Class rating measures horses performance. I average the Class rating with the Speed figure. Both are measures of the horse's performance.
I do not use the Race rating to evaluate a horses performance
If one is going to use the Race Class rating, you have incorporate some form factor to indicate how well the horse did at that Race Class level. That's what the Class rating does.

Bobwhat i do is look for a class rating higher than the race rating which indicates to me that this horse was performing better against this level of competition than most of the horses running in that race!... it is important also to know which horses are facing better quality fields...aka the key race method.....i look for horses racing well against better fields using these ratings....

[Oaklawn]

When I first started to use bris ultimate pps..I tried using the prime power number in my handicapping..But now I ignore that figure altogether..

The prime power number, if I read correctly, is meant for dirt surfaces, or at least the inventors tout its accuracy based on on dirt races. I think it is pretty darn good, unless your talking "NA" types where it doesn't have enough data to rank 'em.

[Oaklawn]

what i do is look for a class rating higher than the race rating which indicates to me that this horse was performing better against this level of competition than most of the horses running in that race!... it is important also to know which horses are facing better quality fields...aka the key race method.....i look for horses racing well against better fields using these ratings....

One thing that I think is missing from the class ratings is that I don't believe it takes into consideration the margin of victory. In other words, the winner of a race rating of 115 is assigned a 118 class rating no matter the margin of victory. ( I made the numbers up and I could be wrong, so somebody check this).

[fmolf]

The prime power number, if I read correctly, is meant for dirt surfaces, or at least the inventors tout its accuracy based on on dirt races. I think it is pretty darn good, unless your talking "NA" types where it doesn't have enough data to rank 'em.
i definitely agree with you on this it is excellent....their current class rating and class last three is excellent also!

[cutchemist42]

One thing that I think is missing from the class ratings is that I don't believe it takes into consideration the margin of victory. In other words, the winner of a race rating of 115 is assigned a 118 class rating no matter the margin of victory. ( I made the numbers up and I could be wrong, so somebody check this).

I've wondered about this too actually. Like, is a horse's class rating limited by the race rating? Can you earn a CR of 112 racing in a 105 race?

[dirty moose]

Is there a way to figure out what the "Race Rating" is of the current race your capping? This way you can compare.

[cutchemist42]

Is there a way to figure out what the "Race Rating" is of the current race your capping? This way you can compare.

I've always wondered this, but also thought that maybe the RR is something that is established after the race is run?

[dirty moose]

I've always wondered this, but also thought that maybe the RR is something that is established after the race is run?

I was thinking the same thing, but that would certainly make the stat a lot less useful.

[pandy]

I've been working on a class handicapping book for some time now and it is based on a formula that utilizes the Bris RR and CR ratings.

[HUSKER55]

I think part of the rating depends on how well the horse ran the race today.

[dirty moose]

I think part of the rating depends on how well the horse ran the race today.

The more I think about it, the more likely this seems.

[Johnny V]

I have found that the Bris CR is a very good handicapping tool depending upon how it is used. I do not place nearly as much emphasis on the RR because IMO I want to know how competitive the horse was at that particular race level. Anyone can run last in the Derby for example. In sprints races for example I think the horse must have shown a competitive level at a CR somewhere in a at least couple of races somewhere in his pp.'s to be a contender today regardless of how his speed ratings stack up against the field. It is just something I look at in those particular races.

[Tom]

What is "competitive?"
1 pt, 2 pts....?

[cutchemist42]

I've been working on a class handicapping book for some time now and it is based on a formula that utilizes the Bris RR and CR ratings.

Sounds interesting, I'd be curious about anything you have so far, or your personal insights into it.

[Clocker]

What is "competitive?"
1 pt, 2 pts....?

For what it is worth, from the brisnet FAQ:

A one point edge over a competitor is considered "significant" and an edge of two or more points is considered a "substantial" advantage.

[HUSKER55]

one thing I have noticed is that layoffs don't seem to make an impact in the numbers.

[pandy]

Sounds interesting, I'd be curious about anything you have so far, or your personal insights into it.


I've caught a lot of longshots over the years using the higest last Bris RR ratings but the key is to combine other factors to get some sort of comprehensive method that gets the win percentage up high enough without eroding the ROI.

[Big Bill]

I've caught a lot of longshots over the years using the higest last Bris RR ratings but the key is to combine other factors to get some sort of comprehensive method that gets the win percentage up high enough without eroding the ROI.

Pandy,

Do you mean the highest last RR of each horse in a race, or each horse's highest RR in its last X number of races?

Big Bill

[upthecreek]

Yesterday 3rd race at Tampa #Burleys Gold coming out of a race where it was given a RR of 112 The Horse also got a CR of 112 yet finishing 7 beaten 8 lengths Hows that possible? What did the winner earn I wonder?

[Robert Goren]

One thing that I think is missing from the class ratings is that I don't believe it takes into consideration the margin of victory. In other words, the winner of a race rating of 115 is assigned a 118 class rating no matter the margin of victory. ( I made the numbers up and I could be wrong, so somebody check this).At one time I thought the exact opposite. I was pretty sure that big margin wins were over rated or that the horse who ran behind a big margin winner were under rated.
It is another thing that BRIS does that looks like it ought to be useful, but I am not sure it actually is. If anything, it might be useful in grading shippers if you become convinced that Bris has got the differences between tracks. I never was. Some research on that might be useful especially if you found they off a bit on a couple of tracks. Let say Bris has the difference between PRX and AQU at 2 pts for a MSW race and you found it to be 0. You're up twice. You are using something few people use and you are up on them because you have improved their number. There may be a spot play using it out there. At least there isn't 20 people out there selling class ratings.

[raybo]

Both the CR and RR are assigned after the race. CR (class rating) is Brisnet's assignment of how each horse performed in a race. RR (race rating), according to their explanation of RR, is the combination of all the CR ratings assigned to all the horses in the field, in that race, so if you had a couple of really poor horses in a race, the RR will not truly reflect the strength of that race. A better approach would be to combine only the CRs of the best contenders in that race, IMO. If they did that, then one could sum the CR and RR and find out what kind of performances horses produced, against what quality of contenders they competed, a better "class/performance" figure, IMO.

[zerosky]

I've always wondered this, but also thought that maybe the RR is something that is established after the race is run?

The Race Rating is the average of the horses current class found at the bottom of the Race Summary Report.
The reason it's not given before the race is due to scratches, AE's, MTO's, off tracks etc.

Multicaps used to put it on the race card and so to Allways (I think), I used to calculate it before handicapping a race
but if you just look at the middle 3 or 4 figures it gives you a general idea.

[pandy]

Pandy,

Do you mean the highest last RR of each horse in a race, or each horse's highest RR in its last X number of races?

Big Bill


I meant the highest last RR. But, this type of number also picks a lot of longshot winners if you use best recent RR. On Trackmaster's class rating, same thing, the horse with the highest recent Trackmaster class often wins at a huge price. Trackmaster has longshot symbols (L, + and b) and these symbols are often placed next to horses that recently, or in their last start, and a lot of these horses win at huge prices. I've seen days when several of them won at big prices. I know because I usually use the Trackmaster exe file to run my Diamond System software and we put the Trackmaster class rating on the printout, and the longshot symbols. For people that play exotics like the Pick 3, etc., top RR on bris or top recent CR on Trackmaster, or horses with the longshot symbols on Trackmaster, are good horses to include if you want a chance to hit a big one.

[raybo]

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

[PressThePace]

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

Absolutely the best written explanation of what the numbers mean and what it means to the handicapper.

[Poindexter]

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

Bris is really new to me and I am just trying to get a feel for it. They do provide a lot of information and so far I am fairly impressed(love their track profile and trainer stats and the prime power is always interesting). The one thing I have no clarity on is based off of the quoted post, how does the RR give a proper representation of "class". In my view, the RR should be determined by coming up with a class rating of each horse in the field based on their prior performances and using that to determine the RR for the field. Todays race should not apply(even if the number is useful for whatever reason, it doesn't strike me as a "class rating" although if someone can explain to me how it is I am open minded.

Now I am going to give an example of a situation where the RR makes absolutely no sense. Coming up at Santa Anita on Thursdays 2nd race. The horse is Burns Turns. On February 22nd she won a 32000 claimer at 7/5 and the race was given a rr of 114. On March 23rd she comes back in an nw1x on the same downhill course albeit a much worse jockey and goes of at 24.90-1 yet the race is given an rr of 114(based off of the 24-1 odds I would assume that race probably should have had a RR of 116 and not 114). I also would question their speed figure for the race as this horse was 2 3/4 behind what I would assume to be a much tougher field and earned an 83 figure while when she won the race at on 2/22 she was given an 88 figure. I would guess the two figures should be about the same(not to mention her actual final time was 2/5's faster on the slower figured race). Now they claim that their class ratings are not based off of speed, so even if it is an error in determining the speed rating, that is not the reason for an error in determining the RR.

I do not really have any experience with these ratings like many of you do, but am curious to hear others thoughts on the case I presented.

While I am on the subject of Bris how to they do they come up with a par speed figure for maiden 2yo fillies of a 91(3rd race Thursday) when they have allowance older fillies and mares earning lower figures than that. Makes no sense at all(any of the good older horsed would be 1/5 against the 2 yo's). Once again, any thoughts?

[fmolf]

the race rating is developed by the strength of the field in that given race.Based on how each horse has performed at that given level.....The class rating is how that horses performance rated against that field of horses in that race....The average competive level is level at which horse has been successful at recently.
race rating simply measures the quality of that field in that race ...this helps you determine which horses have been running against better fields..CR measures the performance of that particular horse in that race.the race rating takes into account each horses record and recent levels of competition and puts a number on it.nothing to do with how race was run.Cr is horses rating after race has been run.

[raybo]

the race rating is developed by the strength of the field in that given race.Based on how each horse has performed at that given level.....The class rating is how that horses performance rated against that field of horses in that race....The average competive level is level at which horse has been successful at recently.
race rating simply measures the quality of that field in that race ...this helps you determine which horses have been running against better fields..CR measures the performance of that particular horse in that race.the race rating takes into account each horses record and recent levels of competition and puts a number on it.nothing to do with how race was run.Cr is horses rating after race has been run.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the Bris "RR":

If the bolded portion of the quoted post were true, then the "RR" would be available, pre-race, which it is not. That means that the "RR" assignment takes place after the race, not before, and that it takes into account all the "CR"s earned in that particular race, after the fact. My understanding of the Bris "RR" rating is that it is entirely dependent on the "CR"s that each of the runners earned in that particular race, it is not determined before the race has been run, nor is it independent of the "CR"s earned in the race.

That being said, IMO, the only time the "RR" will be accurate is when most of the field ran, all the way to the wire. If several horses in the field were "out of it" and did not run hard to the wire, then they would receive much lower "CR"s than the others and therefore the subsequent "RR" for that race would be lower, even though the few who did run hard earned good "CR"s. Bris' calculation of their "RR" at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, is based on an average "CR" for that race. Not the best way to develop a true "race rating", IMO.

[Capper Al]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the Bris "RR":

If the bolded portion of the quoted post were true, then the "RR" would be available, pre-race, which it is not. That means that the "RR" assignment takes place after the race, not before, and that it takes into account all the "CR"s earned in that particular race, after the fact. My understanding of the Bris "RR" rating is that it is entirely dependent on the "CR"s that each of the runners earned in that particular race, it is not determined before the race has been run, nor is it independent of the "CR"s earned in the race.

That being said, IMO, the only time the "RR" will be accurate is when most of the field ran, all the way to the wire. If several horses in the field were "out of it" and did not run hard to the wire, then they would receive much lower "CR"s than the others and therefore the subsequent "RR" for that race would be lower, even though the few who did run hard earned good "CR"s. Bris' calculation of their "RR" at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, is based on an average "CR" for that race. Not the best way to develop a true "race rating", IMO.

This would suggest to me that BRIS might be using PAR time for the CRs. The winning horse ran a speed above this class, equal to, or below. BRIS RR and CR are useful inputs to one's handicapping. Yet, i'd hope BRIS would use a class evaluation independent of time.

[Capper Al]

On this topic, I will be testing my generated RRs and CRs soon here in the forum. Over and above strike rate (wins), i'll be checking for compatibility with RR and an improved CR.

[BIG49010]

One nice thing you can use these ratings for are European shippers, which
Bris makes a rating for all the races. I have seen some decent prices over the years with top rated horses.

[raybo]

This would suggest to me that BRIS might be using PAR time for the CRs. The winning horse ran a speed above this class, equal to, or below. BRIS RR and CR are useful inputs to one's handicapping. Yet, i'd hope BRIS would use a class evaluation independent of time.

Al, I don't know what the Bris algorithm is for their "CR", so I don't know if it includes pars, but knowing Bris (all their proprietary data being database/computer generated), it probably does. But, I also don't know what kind of pars they are, if that is indeed the case, it may not be a speed par for all I know.

[Capper Al]

Al, I don't know what the Bris algorithm is for their "CR", so I don't know if it includes pars, but knowing Bris (all their proprietary data being database/computer generated), it probably does. But, I also don't know what kind of pars they are, if that is indeed the case, it may not be a speed par for all I know.

Yeah, I didn't read you as saying it was par time. I was just guessing. In my attempt to generate RRs and CRs, I will code RRs first.

[cutchemist42]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the Bris "RR":

If the bolded portion of the quoted post were true, then the "RR" would be available, pre-race, which it is not. That means that the "RR" assignment takes place after the race, not before, and that it takes into account all the "CR"s earned in that particular race, after the fact. My understanding of the Bris "RR" rating is that it is entirely dependent on the "CR"s that each of the runners earned in that particular race, it is not determined before the race has been run, nor is it independent of the "CR"s earned in the race.

That being said, IMO, the only time the "RR" will be accurate is when most of the field ran, all the way to the wire. If several horses in the field were "out of it" and did not run hard to the wire, then they would receive much lower "CR"s than the others and therefore the subsequent "RR" for that race would be lower, even though the few who did run hard earned good "CR"s. Bris' calculation of their "RR" at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, is based on an average "CR" for that race. Not the best way to develop a true "race rating", IMO.

So basically, the RR algorithm likely does not account for a house who trotted in after being burned out? An rr of 114 with a 1-2 horses trotting in could maybe be a higher rr based on the quality of honest finishing horses if you exclude those few horses?

[Light]

Bris is really new to me and I am just trying to get a feel for it. They do provide a lot of information and so far I am fairly impressed(love their track profile and trainer stats and the prime power is always interesting). The one thing I have no clarity on is based off of the quoted post, how does the RR give a proper representation of "class". In my view, the RR should be determined by coming up with a class rating of each horse in the field based on their prior performances and using that to determine the RR for the field. Todays race should not apply(even if the number is useful for whatever reason, it doesn't strike me as a "class rating" although if someone can explain to me how it is I am open minded.

Now I am going to give an example of a situation where the RR makes absolutely no sense. Coming up at Santa Anita on Thursdays 2nd race. The horse is Burns Turns. On February 22nd she won a 32000 claimer at 7/5 and the race was given a rr of 114. On March 23rd she comes back in an nw1x on the same downhill course albeit a much worse jockey and goes of at 24.90-1 yet the race is given an rr of 114(based off of the 24-1 odds I would assume that race probably should have had a RR of 116 and not 114). I also would question their speed figure for the race as this horse was 2 3/4 behind what I would assume to be a much tougher field and earned an 83 figure while when she won the race at on 2/22 she was given an 88 figure. I would guess the two figures should be about the same(not to mention her actual final time was 2/5's faster on the slower figured race). Now they claim that their class ratings are not based off of speed, so even if it is an error in determining the speed rating, that is not the reason for an error in determining the RR.

I do not really have any experience with these ratings like many of you do, but am curious to hear others thoughts on the case I presented.

While I am on the subject of Bris how to they do they come up with a par speed figure for maiden 2yo fillies of a 91(3rd race Thursday) when they have allowance older fillies and mares earning lower figures than that. Makes no sense at all(any of the good older horsed would be 1/5 against the 2 yo's). Once again, any thoughts?


You have to take all Bris figs with a grain of salt. Most of the time, they are right, sometimes they are wrong.

Here's something to consider about the RR's. I used to get the software files that broke down the RR's by tenths of a point. (They cost $5 each but you can get them for $2 each if you go on a "plan"). Using those software figs, I found out that if a horse is listed as having a RR of 111.4 (for example), he gets rounded down to a 111 in the RR of the Bris "Ultimate" files. If another horse gets a rating of 111.6 he gets rounded up to a RR fig of 112 in the Ultimate files. The difference is negligible here but Bris Ultimates makes one horse look clealy ahead of the other. Bris says 2 points is significant, which it is if it really is 2 points. So consider a horse who has a 111.4 turned to a 111 and a horse who has a 112.6 getting a 113. There really is only a point between them, but Bris Ultimates will mislead you there into thinking it is the seriously more significant 2 point edge.

After grappling with this issue, (since I did not want to keep paying for the software that gives me more specific RR's), I decided to get my "class" ratings from their "pars" which they publish on all their files. But I ran into another Bris problem. The pars contradict each other. For example, one day you will find a specific par listed at 91 and a week later see the same exact par listed at 87. I called Bris and their answer is useless and evasive.

What I ended up doing was compile the speed ratings of specific races into an Excel spreadsheet. I would note the margin of victory, and adjust accordingly. After at least 4 or 5 races for a specific class, I then averaged them and got a true par. This is similar to making track pars for variants, but a lot quicker to pull this data out using their cheap $1 files.

Going back to the RR's, I used to follow their numbers to the letter. Now I use common sense. For example if they give the same RR to a class level I know is a higher level of competition (from my experience doing pars), I will ignore the RR's and give a class edge to the horse who I know is coming out of a stronger par despite what the RR's say. Have not been disappointed yet that way, but do get disappointed when I believe the RR's in a case where RR's are underrating a horse.

[raybo]

So basically, the RR algorithm likely does not account for a house who trotted in after being burned out? An rr of 114 with a 1-2 horses trotting in could maybe be a higher rr based on the quality of honest finishing horses if you exclude those few horses?

Basically. If indeed, Brisnet just averages the CRs from that race to get that race's RR, and if much of the field had bad races, or just didn't finish, then the RR will be lower possibly than the actual quality of horses in the race would indicate.

Example for a 5 horse field:

Race 1
CR
114
113
112
111
110
560 --- 560/5=112 RR

Race 2
CR
118
113
109
109
109
560 --- 560/5=112 RR

In race 1 there were 5 competitive horses and a RR of 112. While in race 2, one horse was clearly the best and the others were more inferior, but the same RR of 112.

I'm not saying this is what Bris does, but from what I have gathered over the years, as a former devout Bris user, since the CR and RR were created, that is what they do, they just average all the CRs from that race to get the RR.