The Reality of Islam

[Trijack]

What an eye opener!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

[toetoe]

I swear the Mexicans are our last hope. Not so bad when compared to Sharia, bay-bee. Oops, is it okay to type that word ? I don't want to cause riots anywhere.

I'm looking forward to that spooky horn going off here, and all the clones bowing toward Mecca.

Oh, if only our cause were just enough, we could send suicide bombers right into Mecca. Tut, tut. Such violence. What's wrong with me ?

[DJofSD]

Kind of puts birth control and abortion in a different light.

[NJ Stinks]

Unfortunately, I have been in Belgium. IMO the statistics quoted in this "documentary" are a figment of somebody's imagination. Finding a non-Caucasian in much of Belgium is a challenge.

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/belgium/belgium_people.html

Even in the UK where there are a lot of Muslims (2.5M according to the documentary), that's 2.5M out of the current UK population of 61M* or a mere 4% of the UK's population.

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/environment-population-conference-britain

This documentary is an eye opener? Propaganda is more like it.

[HUSKER55]

Mount your horses and draw your swords and render the final solution.

[chickenhead]

Anyone interested in whats going on in Pakistan -- Frontline on PBS (yes, the commie pinko station) had a good piece "Children of the Taliban". If you feel like being worried, check it out.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=180209865174

[Tom]

The Taliban just might acquire nukes on Obama's watch.
Good thing we have lots of warrants.

[boxcar]

The Taliban just might acquire nukes on Obama's watch.
Good thing we have lots of warrants.

Would that be warrants for arrest or search warrants? :D

Boxcar

[hcap]

What an eye opener!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYUThere are many more Muslims in the world than the Taliban or other extreme groups.

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm

The Reality of Islam is not the reality you are trying to imply. Just like the Inquisition or Salem witch hunts, or persecution and killing of thousands of Jews, is not the reality of Christianity.

Another racist thread begins. Probably a few dozen since I have been posting.

[cj's dad]

There are many more Muslims in the world than the Taliban or other extreme groups.

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm

The Reality of Islam is not the reality you are trying to imply. Just like the Inquisition or Salem witch hunts, or persecution and killing of thousands of Jews, is not the reality of Christianity.

Another racist thread begins. Probably a few dozen since I have been posting.

The denial never ends !!

[Floyd]

The denial never ends !!

I wouldn't blame Christianity for the Holocaust, but if you want to....

[cj's dad]

Floyd, My reference was to the "thousands" of Jews,!! but, I think you got that !

[toetoe]

All that is needed for evil to predominate is for (cough, cough) good men such as hcap to do nothing. Trying to censor and personally attack those that don't like his Kool Aid does NOT count as doing something worthy. :ThmbDown: .

[DJofSD]

All that is needed for evil to predominate is for (cough, cough) good men such as hcap to do nothing. Trying to censor and personally attack those that don't like his Kool Aid does NOT count as doing something worthy. :ThmbDown: .
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

Go back through all recorded history and it is the same tired thing. Pick an ethnic group to be blamed for ALL of mankind's problems and then run with it. Not a thing new about it

[Light]

Oh!,I get it. That's why Israel and the U.S. keep targetting and killing Muslims.Controlling the balance.Like sea turtles who lay thousands of eggs and only a few survive,Muslims have to produce alot with Israel and the U.S. killing em by the thousands.

What that video does not point out is that the worlds's population rate is growing faster than the Muslim population rate. The relation of Muslims to the world's population has decreased in the last 30 years and continues to do so. Furthermore,Muslims mostly immigrated to European countries after WW2. The video tends to portray Muslims as currently breeding and immigrating for world domination. The only country that used immigration for domination were the Jews, in a Zionist plot,pre planned and implemented for the creation of Israel.

[Tom]

You are starting to sound like Baghdad Bob.

[BlueShoe]

For a more in depth look at this topic read Patrick Buchanans "Death of the West,and "State of Emergency".Grim stuff.If true,at least I wont be alive to see it.

[boxcar]

Go back through all recorded history and it is the same tired thing. Pick an ethnic group to be blamed for ALL of mankind's problems and then run with it. Not a thing new about it

Not much difference than what BO and his ilk do with America, is it? They blame the U.S.A. for "ALL of mankind's problems". Not enough diplomacy. Too many wars. We contribute too much to problems concerning the environment. We don't contribute enough to international welfare. We're not doing enough medical research to cure the world's major diseases, etc., etc., etc. This is a country that, apparently, can't get anything right in the world or even here domestically -- but oddly enough people are still risking their lives to come and live here -- legally or illegally.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You are starting to sound like Baghdad Bob.

They're probably related. PropagandaRUs.

Boxcar

[toetoe]

Zilz,

It's a distinction you need not make to ensure that you sleep well, I guess, but Islam is

NOT AN ETHNIC GROUP !!! :mad: (:Frustrated.)

[46zilzal]

Zilz,

It's a distinction you need not make to ensure that you sleep well, I guess, but Islam is

NOT AN ETHNIC GROUP !!! :mad: (:Frustrated.)
ANY grouping to direct "it's all your fault" is the same thing no matter how one organizes it. Jews were not all of a single blood nor were many of histories boogey men

[toetoe]

Now, Light's tirade is indeed targeting an ethnic group. That's his right, but will the Jews --- ethnic and/or religious --- ever be as cool as zealots of the Religion of Peace ? The funny thing is that the ethnic superset includes Arabs and Jews.

One man's Mede ...

[toetoe]

Zilz,

That's fine, but if your college professors were less interested in bombthrowing than in diligence and accuracy, you wouldn't make such an embarrassing, although oh so trendy, mistake.

[46zilzal]

Zilz,

That's fine, but if your college professors were less interested in bombthrowing than in diligence and accuracy, you wouldn't make such an embarrassing, although oh so trendy, mistake.
Of course ALL those bearded physiology and biochemistry professors EACH and EVERYONE of them were making bombs.

You are doing the same thing I described: taking a group and labeling each one of them based upon a few.

[boxcar]

ANY grouping to direct "it's all your fault" is the same thing no matter how one organizes it. Jews were not all of a single blood nor were many of histories boogey men

Oh, goodie. Americans are now an "ethnic group". :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Oh, goodie. Americans are now an "ethnic group". :rolleyes:


Wee they sure "Stuck out" last year when I was in Europe.

[Light]

Now, Light's tirade is indeed targeting an ethnic group. .

I'm not targetting an ethnic group. The video is.If everyone loved Muslims,who would care how many there are in the world? Usually stuff like this video is put out by right wing Jewish extremists or affiliates. So I pointed out that what this video portrays Muslims being guilty of ( conquest via immigration) has been done by those who probably created this clip (with Israel). The dramatic start of this video does not come off as an informative little documentary. Rather more scare tactics of Muslims seeking world domination. That is what I'm objecting to.

[mostpost]

You are starting to sound like Baghdad Bob.

With less credibility

[Light]

I forgot to mention that there are twice as many Chritsians as Muslims in the world. Look for my Oscar winning documentary about the doom and gloom of Christianity at a theatre near you. OOPS. I forgot. Offending Christians is politically incorrect. Offending Muslims is not only tolerarated but encouraged. That's what has no credibility.

[toetoe]

Yes, zilzal, I am indeed attacking the ethnic subset known as professors --- in fact, that teensy sub-subset known as wildeyed socialistic professors ( :rolleyes: ) --- because I am a racialist.

[boxcar]

Wee they sure "Stuck out" last year when I was in Europe.

As much as you did? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[toetoe]

Light,

Apologies if you meant exclusively religious Jews, and not ethnic Jews. :blush: .

[newtothegame]

Oh!,I get it. That's why Israel and the U.S. keep targetting and killing Muslims.Controlling the balance.Like sea turtles who lay thousands of eggs and only a few survive,Muslims have to produce alot with Israel and the U.S. killing em by the thousands.

What that video does not point out is that the worlds's population rate is growing faster than the Muslim population rate. The relation of Muslims to the world's population has decreased in the last 30 years and continues to do so. Furthermore,Muslims mostly immigrated to European countries after WW2. The video tends to portray Muslims as currently breeding and immigrating for world domination. The only country that used immigration for domination were the Jews, in a Zionist plot,pre planned and implemented for the creation of Israel.


Gee...here we go on the Isaeli kick again :bang:

[toetoe]

I distinguish between Christians, who acquiesced in the shame game and gave up all their colonies (possible exception --- Northern Ireland), and Muslims, who indeed seek global domination, public sentiment be damned. Also notable is the fact that colonized people always fought back, whereas Americans rarely do. Indeed, even the first step in fighting back --- alerting compatriots to the problem --- is berated as the ravings of modern-day Chicken Littles.

[46zilzal]

Over the years I worked with many Muslim nurses. Other than their head being covered you would never know the difference to any others

[Light]

Gee...here we go on the Isaeli kick again :bang:

It only appears that way to you because you have double standards.

[PaceAdvantage]

Go back through all recorded history and it is the same tired thing. Pick an ethnic group to be blamed for ALL of mankind's problems and then run with it. Not a thing new about itI don't recall any mankind's problems being blamed on any group in this thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

Another racist thread begins. Probably a few dozen since I have been posting.How is this a racist thread? What, we can't talk about religion anymore...now that's racist too? Or population demographics? That's racist.

Everything is racist. I get it now. Nuke Canada...that's racist...call Ken Rudulph on TVG an idiot..that's racist...but call Simon Bray on TVG an idiot...that's NOT racist...

You libs are a curious bunch. You love the labels. And you love scarlet letters...that shit won't fly forever.

[PaceAdvantage]

Rather more scare tactics of Muslims seeking world domination. That is what I'm objecting to.So you're saying Khadafi's quotes in that little clip were never uttered by him? They made that up about him?

[PaceAdvantage]

Does anybody have any real stats to refute the stats presented in the clip?

If what is presented in the clip is anywhere near reality, I find it fascinating...don't you? And if it's not anywhere near reality, I'd like to know that too...

So, all those highly informed uppity libs...please respond back with better info...

[hcap]

There are many more Muslims in the world than the Taliban or other extreme groups.

From Wiki.....

The Reality of Islam is not the reality you are trying to imply. Just like the Inquisition or Salem witch hunts, or persecution and killing of thousands of Jews, is not the reality of Christianity.

Another racist thread begins. Probably a few dozen since I have been posting.

The denial never ends !!

At many points in Christian history, the finer points of "love thy neighbor" was severely lacking. Many "Christians were zealots as bad as the Taliban and present day literal minded Koran knee-jerkers. But I doubt YOU know that.

Many religions are a double edged sword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews


Christian antisemitism

In the Middle Ages Antisemitism in Europe was religious. Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, have held Jews responsible for killing Jesus, a practice originated by Melito of Sardis. As stated in the Boston College Guide to Passion Plays, "Over the course of time, Christians began to accept... that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for killing Jesus. According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus Christ's death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time, have committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. For 1900 years of Christian-Jewish history, the charge of deicide has led to hatred, violence against and murder of Jews in Europe and America."[1]

During the High Middle Ages in Europe there was full-scale persecution in many places, with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and massacres. Jews were frequently massacred and exiled from various European countries. The persecution hit its first peak during the Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed; see German Crusade, 1096. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were subject to frequent massacres. The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320. The Crusades were followed by many horrific, nasty expulsions, including in, 1290, the banishing of all English Jews; in 1396, 100,000 Jews were moved from France; and, in 1421 thousands were moved from Austria. Many of the moved Jews fled to Poland.[2]

As the Black Death epidemics devastated Europe in the mid-14th century, annihilating more than a half of the population, Jews were taken as scapegoats. Rumors spread that they caused the disease by deliberately poisoning wells. Hundreds of Jewish communities were destroyed by violence. Although the Pope Clement VI tried to protect them by the July 6, 1348 papal bull and another 1348 bull, several months later, 900 Jews were burnt alive in Strasbourg, where the plague hadn't yet affected the city.[3]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

....The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.




Another racist thread begins. Probably a few dozen since I have been posting.
How is this a racist thread? What, we can't talk about religion anymore...now that's racist too? Or population demographics? That's racist.

Most threads that use the term "Religion of Peace" mockingly and started by the right wing crusaders here are out and out racist. And demonstrate very little understanding of Islam and very little understanding of Christian history.

And for that matter the good and bad of all religions.

[hcap]

Welcome back Tim!

[The Judge]

Heres a little something from a document called the Magna Carta of 1215 not the Koran.

10. If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond.

11. And if anyone die indebted to the Jews, his wife shall have her dower and pay nothing of that debt; and if any children of the deceased are left under age, necessaries shall be provided for them in keeping with the holding of the deceased; and out of the residue the debt shall be paid, reserving, however, service due to feudal lords; in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews are to be dealt with similarly.

[hcap]

From Juan Cole....

"Obama has engaged in a number of acts of public diplomacy toward the Muslim world that were intended to change the image of the United States in the region and to marshal for his purposes American soft power, which is among its largest assets in the region. (Contrary to what the American Right used to confidently assert, the Muslim world does not hate "our way of life," but rather loves the idea of democracy and loves US media. What they say they don't like is a lot of sleeping around and tolerance of gays; in other words, Muslim public opinion is not so different from that of many Americans in the deep red states).

Obama did an interview with al-Arabiya, the Dubai-based Arabic satellite news station, soon after he got into office. He offered a hand of friendship to Muslims, insisted that you can't stereotype 1.5 billion people with the actions of a few terrorists, and implied that al-Qaeda seemed to be running scared that it had lost George W. Bush as a recruiting tool.

Obama was making an important point. Radicalism in the Muslim world is very much wrought up with anti-imperialism, with a desire to push back against what local people see as an overbearing and arrogant American dictation to them of how to live their lives. Bush was a poster boy for that arrogance, slipping up and talking of a "crusade," denouncing "Islamic fascism" or "Islamic terrorism" (you can't have either since Islam forbids them), encouraging the Israeli right wing, and invading and occupying Muslim countries on a vast scale. The new president hoped to set a different tone, and by doing so to blunt the recruiting efforts of the radicals."

[Tom]

This is funny. A comedian on XM - I didn't get his name, but he is Jewish. He says he went to Germany on vacation. He thought the place was beautiful and he was in very good mood one sunny morning, so as he walked through town, he waved to people and shouted out Good Morning.

Then he explains, "Now, their custom is apparently not to actually wave, but to point at you with their finger. And I guess the German word for Good Morning is Juden! But what a friendly town, so many of them followed me everywhere, waving and yelling good morning!"

[Show Me the Wire]

At many points in Christian history, the finer points of "love thy neighbor" was severely lacking. Many "Christians were zealots as bad as the Taliban and present day literal minded Koran knee-jerkers. But I doubt YOU know that.

Many religions are a double edged sword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews


Christian antisemitism

In the Middle Ages Antisemitism in Europe was religious. Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, have held Jews responsible for killing Jesus, a practice originated by Melito of Sardis. As stated in the Boston College Guide to Passion Plays, "Over the course of time, Christians began to accept... that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for killing Jesus. According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus Christ's death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time, have committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. For 1900 years of Christian-Jewish history, the charge of deicide has led to hatred, violence against and murder of Jews in Europe and America."[1]

During the High Middle Ages in Europe there was full-scale persecution in many places, with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and massacres. Jews were frequently massacred and exiled from various European countries. The persecution hit its first peak during the Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed; see German Crusade, 1096. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were subject to frequent massacres. The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320. The Crusades were followed by many horrific, nasty expulsions, including in, 1290, the banishing of all English Jews; in 1396, 100,000 Jews were moved from France; and, in 1421 thousands were moved from Austria. Many of the moved Jews fled to Poland.[2]

As the Black Death epidemics devastated Europe in the mid-14th century, annihilating more than a half of the population, Jews were taken as scapegoats. Rumors spread that they caused the disease by deliberately poisoning wells. Hundreds of Jewish communities were destroyed by violence. Although the Pope Clement VI tried to protect them by the July 6, 1348 papal bull and another 1348 bull, several months later, 900 Jews were burnt alive in Strasbourg, where the plague hadn't yet affected the city.[3]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

....The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.



Most threads that use the term "Religion of Peace" mockingly and started by the right wing crusaders here are out and out racist. And demonstrate very little understanding of Islam and very little understanding of Christian history.

And for that matter the good and bad of all religions.


Sigh, hcap you just love to revise history and leave out salient points. The Jews and Christians violent relationship did not begin in the middle ages. It began when the political Jewish infrastructure persecuted the fledging Christian community.

The Gospels clearly state the Jews killed Christ and St. Peter, the apostle of Christ, accused his fellow Jews of killing the Messiah and then demanded the Jews to repent.

The Jewish leadership was responsible for the death of the Christ and the continuing genocide against Christ's early followers.

I am sure this animosity continued through the ages, but as you said there was no official doctrine of Christianity to persecute the Jews, which like the Jews officially sanctioned against the follower's of Christ.

The animosity against the Jews in the middle ages resulted due to Jews practicing banking commerce and high interest rates levied against borrowers. For indeed the love of money is the root of all evil.

It was very easy to turn against people whom you owe large amounts of money and to have the masses do your work by promoting falsehoods.

One very important concept you always miss is the ordinary people in these earlier times had no political power. Ordinary people did not contribute to public policy. If the ruling class wanted to welch on their debts to the Jewish lenders, they did not need favorable public opinion by the masses nor did the nobles need the Christian Church to make anti-Semitic policies.

Of course the nobles tried to justify their greed by accusing the Jews of deicide. This brings up a very interesting bilical point.

The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world.

As for the Spanish inquisition this has been discussed here prior. The Jews were singled out because the influential Jewish community plotted against the Spanish nobles with the Moors from Africa. It seems the Spanish Jewish community sided with the eventual losers and suffered the consequences.

Bottom line. If you want to justify Islam and its "mythical" creator just do it. Your attempt at justifying Islam, or any religion, is not dependant on Roman Catholic Dogma as you insightfully posted or the fundamentals of Christianity. So stop bearing false witness against Christianity to make your factually inaccurate flawed biased opinions.

[hcap]

You excuse overt hate and racism by Christians against Jews throughout history by certain parts of the gospels. Taken out of context. This is your interpretation and it is a hateful one. Spare me the external literal false understanding that YOU and others like you try to pass off as another "cosmic truth". You and the Taliban are close brethren of justifiable hatreds.
The Gospels clearly state the Jews killed Christ and St. Peter, the apostle of Christ, accused his fellow Jews of killing the Messiah and then demanded the Jews to repent.

.......The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world.Utter crap. You should be ashamed of yourself!
The animosity against the Jews in the middle ages resulted due to Jews practicing banking commerce and high interest rates levied against borrowers. For indeed the love of money is the root of all evil.

It was very easy to turn against people whom you owe large amounts of money and to have the masses do your work by promoting falsehoods.Why didn't you quote the "Elders of Zion"?
Such rantings as above is 10x worse than than the bull you and others have accused Light of when he spoke of a real political circumstances of Zionism.

I have studied many religions. Practiced with Sufis and Zen monks. Studied Hindu meditation and spent some time with Christian mystics and kind selfless missionaries. The underlying universal truth that is shared by all is compassion. Something lacking in your biblical rants

I am Jewish. I have relatives that survived and perished in the Holocaust.
I sincerely hope you will apologize for your racist crap.

.................................................. .................

Maybe you should have used Pastor Hagee as a source, that is until he was forced to apologize for his bullshit? Seems to have real enlightened take....

"John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader and endorser of Sen. John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God's behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a "hunter," sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God's will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.

Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that.

......Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen."

[Show Me the Wire]

Everything I stated is factually and historically correct. You try to distort statements and facts.

Once again you stoop to the Alinsky strategy of of personal attacks attempting invalidatation of factually correct statements that you are not comfortable with because the facts show the futileness of your agenda.

No where in any of my statements did I personally advocate hate against any group. If you have a problem with what the Gospel authors wrote, that is your problem not mine.

The only utter crap is yours.

BTW I don't believe I ever accused Light of being racist or anti-semetic.

[Show Me the Wire]

You excuse overt hate and racism by Christians against Jews throughout history by certain parts of the gospels. Taken out of context. This is your interpretation and it is a hateful one. Spare me the external literal false understanding that YOU and others like you try to pass off as another "cosmic truth". You and the Taliban are close brethren of justifiable hatreds.
Utter crap. You should be ashamed of yourself!
Why didn't you quote the "Elders of Zion"?
Such rantings as above is 10x worse than than the bull you and others have accused Light of when he spoke of a real political circumstances of Zionism.

I have studied many religions. Practiced with Sufis and Zen monks. Studied Hindu meditation and spent some time with Christian mystics and kind selfless missionaries. The underlying universal truth that is shared by all is compassion. Something lacking in your biblical rants

I am Jewish. I have relatives that survived and perished in the Holocaust.
I sincerely hope you will apologize for your racist crap.

.................................................. .................

Maybe you should have used Pastor Hagee as a source, that is until he was forced to apologize for his bullshit? Seems to have real enlightened take....

"John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader and endorser of Sen. John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God's behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a "hunter," sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God's will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.

Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that.

......Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen."

How does someone take out of context Mt 27, 24-25? The Jewish people in the crowd yell "His blood be upon us and upon our children. " to Pilate after Pilate insists he could find no guilt in Jesus and yet the Jewish elite press for Jesus' execution. It is plain language. How do you personally interpret this passage?

My remark about disproportionate persecution is because the Jewish people have been horribly persecuted. They were targeted in the Crusades, targeted by Hitler, the Russians, Arabs and Europeans. Do you believe the burdens and atrocities the Jewish people have suffered and still suffer are proportionate to their population. I don't.

I don't quote Haggee because he is not divenly inspired. But here is the rub or the nuance you miss. You try to compare an opinion to a fact. Hagee has opinions. I correct your faulty facts.

The Jews persecuted the early followers of Christ. The Jews factually drew first blood. It is not as you opine the Christians always picked on Jews. With that said that did not give Christians the right to exact revenge. However, there was ill will and feelings between the Jews and the follwers of Christ, especially after the Jewish elite excluded the followers of Christ from the Jewish community and started religious persecutions.

The first follwers of Christ were Jews and wished to remain so. But the Jewish leadership saw fit to reject these devout Jews and persecute them.

For someone who has allegedly studied so many religions you are woefully lacking in substance.

[boxcar]

SMTW, you're wasting your time with this infidel. Leave him be; for God, I fear, has given him over to a reprobate mind. Jews today are in denial about the Christ, but the Jews of His day understood perfectly what Jesus was teaching in this parable:

Matt 21:33-46
33 "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey. 34 "And when the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35 "And the vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36 "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37 "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and seize his inheritance.' 39 "And they took him, and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" 41 They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,

'The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes'?

43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. 44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." 45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 And when they sought to seize Him, they feared the multitudes, because they held Him to be a prophet.
NASB

The Jewish leaders of Christ's day, for the most part, hated Jesus; for he posed no small threat to apostate Judaism. He was betrayed by a Jew (Judas) who delivered his Lord up to the religious leaders for the paltry sum of those 30 pieces of silver -- the same leaders who were always seeking ways to discredit the Christ during his public ministry and even how to kill him.

Matt 26:3-5
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas; 4 and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth, and kill Him. 5 But they were saying, "Not during the festival, lest a riot occur among the people."
NASB

And Jesus scathingly condemned the Jewish religious establishment of the day not only because of what they would do to believers once he was gone, but what they had done for centuries to so many of the prophets God sent the nation!

Matt 23:29-39
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say,' If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. ' 31 "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
NASB

But even in the light of all this scriptural evidence, we should never forget that both Jew and Gentile share equal guilt in Christ's death and in the deaths of all his disciples who the world has martyred over all these many centuries. Jews and Gentiles are equally wicked. Neither is better than the other, or more noble, or more virtuous. For as it is written, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Boxcar

[dav4463]

www.thereligionofpeace.com

[hcap]

You both are assuming the "rightness" of your one-level interpretation of events written by fallible MEN in the NT. That combined with a huge game of historical/religious telephone is the failure of most interpreters of many scriptures.Actually the NT and OT are teaching stories with a psychological inner component both of you choose to ignore. And you both don't get the historical context much of which is political.

The anti-Jewish polemics in the New Testament as cobbled together by the boxcars and SMTWs of the world continues to be the basis of the antisemitism associated with Christianity at different periods in its history. Read this list, and tell me how "love thy neighbor" applies. Or how anything you can say justifies how Christians treated Jews. I would argue that these atrocities are as bad as any religious extremist group-ever.

Year

613 Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.

1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom
.
1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.

1181 French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.

1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.

1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.

1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.

1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.

1306 King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.

1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.

1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.

1370 Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.

1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.

1394 Second banishment of Jews from France.

1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.

1478 The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.

1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.

1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.

More...

Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court.

535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians."

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism.

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
bullet 612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.

613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off."

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

855: Jews were exiled from Italy

1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians.

078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)

1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.

1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.

1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians."

1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.

1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

[cj's dad]

Interesting that your last noted event has a date of 1497 - I guess that things have changed a bit since then eh !

I prefer to live in the reality of now.

[hcap]

My point is that you cannot say all practitioners of any religion are represented by some in its past or a small extremist fringe. Christianity cannot be judged by the atrocities in it's past. Islam cannot be judged by terrorists and sub groups like the Taliban.

1.5 billion Muslims are not the Taliban. The Spanish Inquisition or Crusades are not Christianity.

Problem occurs when devotees of their faith lose their conscience and common humanity and justify all sorts of unbalanced out of context philosophies-usually diametrically opposed to the real core beliefs of their religion.

[Cangamble]

Interesting that your last noted event has a date of 1497 - I guess that things have changed a bit since then eh !

I prefer to live in the reality of now.
Hitler used the "Jews killed Christ" effectively to promote anti-semitism in the 1930's and during WW2 on his mostly Catholic audience.
I know that there a few Protestants who don't consider Catholics to be Christian, but I think they are.:)

I'm not going to say Hitler was a Christian (he had some weird beliefs, he wasn't atheist, he did believe in a creator though), but he sure used the Germans Christianity to try to achieve his nefarious goals.

Anti-semitism is growing wherever Muslim populations are growing fast. In France for example, Jews were harassed to the point that 3,000 left for Israel a couple of years ago.

This also illustrates the necessity of Israel's existence today even for non religious reasons.

[Cangamble]

Oh!,I get it. That's why Israel and the U.S. keep targetting and killing Muslims.Controlling the balance.Like sea turtles who lay thousands of eggs and only a few survive,Muslims have to produce alot with Israel and the U.S. killing em by the thousands.

What that video does not point out is that the worlds's population rate is growing faster than the Muslim population rate. The relation of Muslims to the world's population has decreased in the last 30 years and continues to do so. Furthermore,Muslims mostly immigrated to European countries after WW2. The video tends to portray Muslims as currently breeding and immigrating for world domination. The only country that used immigration for domination were the Jews, in a Zionist plot,pre planned and implemented for the creation of Israel.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IeHiolIJzWA/SWwRYNmQl5I/AAAAAAAAAMg/KHW9GtgJfPc/s1600-h/world+conflicts.jpg

By the thousands? Yeah, Israel is the worst of the worst conflict on this planet.:bang::bang:
Muslims kill Muslims at a much higher rate by far (see Darfur)
There are many parts in Europe now where non Muslims are completely shunned and made to feel uncomfortable.

Lets look at a middle east map to see how huge of a land grab that Zionist plot is:
http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=mozclient&oe=utf-8&q=middle%20east%20map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

One more thing, in 1948, the same year the UN OKed Israel, it also OKed Pakistan as a Muslim majority country. The Arabs didn't get worked up about that one though.

[DJofSD]

My point is that you cannot say all practitioners of any religion are represented by some in its past or a small extremist fringe. Christianity cannot be judged by the atrocities in it's past. Islam cannot be judged by terrorists and sub groups like the Taliban.

1.5 billion Muslims are not the Taliban. The Spanish Inquisition or Crusades are not Christianity.

Problem occurs when devotees of their faith lose their conscience and common humanity and justify all sorts of unbalanced out of context philosophies-usually diametrically opposed to the real core beliefs of their religion.
Very well stated. I agree. It is a philosophical error to attribute qualities of a small sect of a group to the entire group.

And as an aside, two things about the Inquisition: the Roman Catholic church was an equal opportunity persecutor. They started with a sect of their own religion, the Cathars. Also, the techniques and methods used by the Inquisition were seen during the last century in Nazi Germany.

[Show Me the Wire]

You both are assuming the "rightness" of your one-level interpretation of events written by fallible MEN in the NT. That combined with a huge game of historical/religious telephone is the failure of most interpreters of many scriptures.Actually the NT and OT are teaching stories with a psychological inner component both of you choose to ignore. And you both don't get the historical context much of which is political. .....

.

Revealing statement hcap about the New Testament being written by fallible MEN. I assume you then believe the Books of Moses a/k/a The Pentateuch are also written by fallible Men?

You are correct, I am rightious in my statement as the New Testament is Divinely inspired writtings by Jewish writers writing about their own Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the Son of God.


Furthermore, I forgive you for your trespass aginst me via you personal attack and offer my other cheek.

I pray:
In the tender compassion of our God the dawn from on high shall break upon us, to shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death.

[Light]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

By the thousands?

I was being literal,not funny. The Iraqi sanctions alone (mainly sponsered by the U.S and Israel) during the Clinton era killed almost 1.5 million Iraqi's.At that time Madeline Allbright said on 20/20 that the deaths of over 1/2 million innocent Iraqi children was "worth it". This is the sick mentality that pervades Washington and Tel Aviv. If 1 Jew is killed in the ME,an all out invasion by Israel killing and maiming thousands of Muslims is justified by that 1 Jewish death. Kill 1/2 million Muslim children and you go on television as a hero.If you cant see that is wrong, you cant see.

[Cangamble]

Revealing statement hcap about the New Testament being written by fallible MEN. I assume you then believe the Books of Moses a/k/a The Pentateuch are also written by fallible Men?


Since there is no evidence to back up the Exodus, and in fact there is evidence that runs contrary to that of the Exodus, the Book Of Moses was definitely written by fallible men.
As for the NT, it wasn't written until many many years after "the fact." And the writers had the Romans to worry about. It was easier and also safer to make the Jews look like the bad guys.
If you do some research and compare the stories attributed to Jesus and those attributed to Dionyssus, you may be shocked that the Jesus story is most likely pure myth.

[Show Me the Wire]

Light:

One thing you must understand. Americans have been taught revisionist history through people that now label themselves progressive. Americans were not told of the duplicity involved in securing historical Palastinain land and the innocent Palastinian families that were displaced.

Americans in general are unaware of the initial friendship offered by the Arab world and the trust that was betrayed.

I am sorry to say your posts here will fall mainly on deaf ears, because of our ignorance.

With that said, hate spewed toward specific groups of people do not go over very well here. The violence caused by Hamas and radicalized Islamic extremist do not help your cause, with Americans.

Myself, I detest revionist history and that is why I call hcap out when he misrepresents historical facts to further a revionist progressive agenda. The truth will set us free, only if we seek the truth. Too many people are comfortable getting the "truth" through politicians and self-promoting experts, so it is indeed difficult to be set free.

[Cangamble]

I was being literal,not funny. The Iraqi sanctions alone (mainly sponsered by the U.S and Israel) during the Clinton era killed almost 1.5 million Iraqi's.At that time Madeline Allbright said on 20/20 that the deaths of over 1/2 million innocent Iraqi children was "worth it". This is the sick mentality that pervades Washington and Tel Aviv. If 1 Jew is killed in the ME,an all out invasion by Israel killing and maiming thousands of Muslims is justified by that 1 Jewish death. Kill 1/2 million Muslim children and you go on television as a hero.If you cant see that is wrong, you cant see.
Blaming deaths during Iraqi sanctions on Israel? Are you for real? And how many Muslims did Israel really kill again? And how many Muslims would Israel kill if the Muslims put their arms down?

Is Darfur Israel's fault too? Do you blame deaths in Cuba on America as well?

[Show Me the Wire]

Cangamble:

I know your position. I already have done lots of research and study regarding religion.

I have made my decsions based on my efforts.

I asked hcap his postion on The Pentateuch since he is so sure about the New Testament being written by fallible men. Given his disdain for Christianity and his self-declared spiritual beliefs, I don't believe he feels the same about The Pentateuch. I think he believes the Books of Moses are divinely inspired.

[46zilzal]

If you do some research and compare the stories attributed to Jesus and those attributed to Dionyssus, you may be shocked that the Jesus story is most likely pure myth.
The film Zeitgeist pointed that out. In over 30 different cultural accounts of a "son: coming back, same story, different cultures, except they meant SUN not son

[boxcar]

You both are assuming the "rightness" of your one-level interpretation of events written by fallible MEN in the NT.

And what about you? YOU are not assuming the 'rightness' of your... interpretation of events written by fallible MEN"? :bang: :bang:


That combined with a huge game of historical/religious telephone is the failure of most interpreters of many scriptures.Actually the NT and OT are teaching stories with a psychological inner component both of you choose to ignore. And you both don't get the historical context much of which is political.

What would the world do without "enlightened" people like yourself? You always seem to have the keys that unlock the more accurate historical contexts, the more mystical, the more spiritual and now...more "psychological inner" components to life that leads inevitably to deeper understanding. :rolleyes:

Oh to be sure....the history of the Jews post-NT era is replete periods of severe persecution -- persecution, I might add brought on by themselves! Just as they have rejected their Messiah so, too, God has rejected them for a season, as this Jew wrote -- a Jew named Paul:

Rom 11
11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, they have torn down Thine altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."

4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,"God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day."

9 And David says,
"Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever."

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27 "And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
NASB


Why do you think Israel is so hated by the world? There is no nation on this earth (including the U.S. probably) more hated and despised than the nation of Israel. They stand virtually alone in this world. And there's a reason for this; for when the day of salvation comes to Israel -- when Israel escapes the violent hands of their enemies that would annihilate them from the face of this earth, they will only be able to give the glory to God their King -- to their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ! For it will be He who will ultimately deliver his people.

In closing, let make this clear: No true, Christ-loving Christian would harbor any ill-feeling toward the Jews. We know what God has in store for Israel nation, as this age reaches its climax. We know that the true Israel, the real Israel will yet be saved. True Christians share Paul's sentiments:

Rom 9:1-13
9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is a word of promise: "At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NASB


Therefore, ALL Israel -- all true Israel, according to how sacred scripture defines this term will be saved. All will be brought into Christ's flock at the appointed time.

One would think that the NT would support antisemitism, wouldn't you, since virtually the entire world, including numerous professing Christians within Christendom hate Israel -- despise Jews. But one would be very hard-pressed to find any such support for this hatred in the bible. In fact, Christians are warned against having even an arrogant attitude toward Jews, let alone a hostile one (Rom 11:18ff).

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

[QUOTE=CangambleAs for the NT, it wasn't written until many many years after "the fact." And the writers had the Romans to worry about. It was easier and also safer to make the Jews look like the bad guys.
If you do some research and compare the stories attributed to Jesus and those attributed to Dionyssus, you may be shocked that the Jesus story is most likely pure myth.[/QUOTE]

You really think the parables cited by boxcar in his posts were about the Romans?

Yes, the first Gospels were written later but based upon first hand knowledge of the Apostles.

If you think the the writers intentionally made the Jews look bad for safety from the Romans, you really need to educate yourself on the entire subject.

Peter, the Apostle was crucified by the Romans, and many other of the original twelve were put to death under Roman rule and later Paul was beheaded by the Romans. Your theory of safety from the Romans falls flat, because the Apostles never hid or ran from Roman punishment and were eventually executed by Rome.


No, I am not shocked that they are many stories that resemble each other. Similarity does not invalidate. Did you follow my previous discussion with hcap about evil and how far flung cultures basically believed evil entered into the world through man. So is similarity evidence of falseness or truth? You decide, you may be shocked.

[Cangamble]

You really think the parables cited by boxcar in his posts were about the Romans?

Yes, the first Gospels were written later but based upon first hand knowledge of the Apostles.

If you think the the writers intentionally made the Jews look bad for safety from the Romans, you really need to educate yourself on the entire subject.

Peter, the Apostle was crucified by the Romans, and many other of the original twelve were put to death under Roman rule and later Paul was beheaded by the Romans. Your theory of safety from the Romans falls flat, because the Apostles never hid or ran from Roman punishment and were eventually executed by Rome.


No, I am not shocked that they are many stories that resemble each other. Similarity does not invalidate. Did you follow my previous discussion with hcap about evil and how far flung cultures basically believed evil entered into the world through man. So is similarity evidence of falseness or truth? You decide, you may be shocked.
I've got Boxcar on IGGY. And I'm not missing anything.
You are assuming the story of Apostles is true. My contention is that the blame on the Jews didn't happen until the 2nd or 3rd Century when the Roman powers were amalgamating the Christians with the Pagans.

The reality is that there is zero contemporary evidence for Jesus outside the bible.

The first time he is mentioned was by Josephus (50 years after "the fact"). Sure, he observed Christians by that time, and by that time the Christians were starting to believe that there was really a Jesus, and not the figure of Gnostic dream.

For someone who was supposed to have such an impact on those alive at the time, there is absolutely nothing to back up his existence.

Great read (only one long page):
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

Up-8l5dIeso

[Show Me the Wire]

You say the following "The reality is that there is zero contemporary evidence for Jesus outside the bible."

Then you completely contradict yourself with the following:

The first time he is mentioned was by Josephus (50 years after "the fact"). Sure, he observed Christians by that time, and by that time the Christians were starting to believe that there was really a Jesus, and not the figure of Gnostic dream

As if Josephus could have not personnally seen Jesus 50 years is well within a lifetime, or talked to a contemporary of Jesus and that he did not factually examine the Roman record of Jesus' crucifixtion. Your entire premise that it was impossible to have personal knowledge of Jesus is faulty and without any foundation.

God Bless and take care.

[Show Me the Wire]

Now I am going to play hcap's game. In fact cangamble, there is no record of the existence of the great prophet of Islam outside the Koran. Not even a Josephus type of reference to this mythical figure.

If you really want to challenge a faith based on the non-existence of its founder, Islam is the one. Absolutely not one iota, shred, or scintilating tidbit of historical proof that the prophet is no more than a fairy-tale that hcap likes to tlk about.

[Cangamble]

You say the following "The reality is that there is zero contemporary evidence for Jesus outside the bible."

Then you completely contradict yourself with the following:

The first time he is mentioned was by Josephus (50 years after "the fact"). Sure, he observed Christians by that time, and by that time the Christians were starting to believe that there was really a Jesus, and not the figure of Gnostic dream

As if Josephus could have not personnally seen Jesus 50 years is well within a lifetime, or talked to a contemporary of Jesus and that he did not factually examine the Roman record of Jesus' crucifixtion. Your entire premise that it was impossible to have personal knowledge of Jesus is faulty and without any foundation.

God Bless and take care.
The video explains it better. But there was no contradiction on my part. Again, my point is explained in Armstrong's video.

Contemporary evidence would be writings done between 0-35 AD observing Jesus. There are none. Nothing outside the bible. Don't shoot the messenger.

[chickenhead]

Oh to be sure....the history of the Jews post-NT era is replete periods of severe persecution -- persecution, I might add brought on by themselves! Just as they have rejected their Messiah so, too, God has rejected them for a season

They stand virtually alone in this world. And there's a reason for this; for when the day of salvation comes to Israel -- when Israel escapes the violent hands of their enemies that would annihilate them from the face of this earth, they will only be able to give the glory to God their King -- to their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ!

So God is orchestrating all the jew killing, so that one day in the future, when he decides to stop, they will say thanks? I had no idea God operated on the level of a shallow, jilted, sociopathic teenager. That's good to know.

[Cangamble]

Now I am going to play hcap's game. In fact cangamble, there is no record of the existence of the great prophet of Islam outside the Koran. Not even a Josephus type of reference to this mythical figure.

If you really want to challenge a faith based on the non-existence of its founder, Islam is the one. Absolutely not one iota, shred, or scintilating tidbit of historical proof that the prophet is no more than a fairy-tale that hcap likes to tlk about.
I definitely think that there may have been no Mohammed. I haven't researched it as intently as Moses or Jesus, but you are right, evidence is lacking in a big way.
Though there is a Josephus type of reference, because his story was written for sure around 50 years after he supposedly existed.

The same is true of Zeus and Thor too:)

[Show Me the Wire]

Oh it is really not that chickenhead. It is about Karma. The spiritual world has its laws, just as the physical world does. For example, in the physical world for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

In the spiritual world what you do comes back to you, good Karma and bad Karma, cast bread upon the waters and it shall come back to you.

Rejecting the Son of God could be construed as very bad karma and that is what the New Testament Jewish writers were communicating to the Jewish people.

Once, we understand this premise, we must acknowledge once the laws are established they work independently, just like the physical laws of nature.

God as you said is not personally doing all the killing. God set up the framework and the rules. The laws of the spiritual realm react to how we use our free will.

If you use your free will to call curses upon yourself, the spiritual laws of the universe will let it come back to you.

[Show Me the Wire]

I definitely think that there may have been no Mohammed. I haven't researched it as intently as Moses or Jesus, but you are right, evidence is lacking in a big way.
Though there is a Josephus type of reference, because his story was written for sure around 50 years after he supposedly existed.

The same is true of Zeus and Thor too:)

No there is the rub it is not the same. Josephus did not write the story of Jesus. Josephus is an independant observer with no dog in the fight. He wrote history for the Romans, not the Jews nor the Christians.

Your comparison compares a Gospel writer like Mark to the story telller of the mythical prophet. If you can't take the 4 Gospel writers as primary evidence of Christ, you certainly cannot take one writer writing about a prophet as primary evidence of the prophet's existence.

[chickenhead]

Right, so people who kill Jews are only delivering karma -- someone has to do it after all. They can't really be blamed for it, it can't really be seen as a personal stain on them -- God set up these rules after all. Someone has to do it....the Jews have earned it.

[Show Me the Wire]

Is that what I said? No. The people who kill Jews or anyone else for that matter will have to answer for their evil use of free will.

Listen no one in this thread, or any other, advocated the killing of Jewish people. hcap is the one that raised the evil Christian against the unsuspecting Jewish population argument throughout history. I only reminded him of the jewish on Jewish violence regarding the first followers of Christ.

And I answered your question in a respectful way. If you beleive in a spiritual nature of man and a spiritual world you must accept laws relating to that nature exist, just like the laws of the physical universe.

Unfortunately, there are misguided people that may beleive that someone has to do it after all. However, that thought pattern has never been dogma in mainline Christian thinking and has been actively discouraged.

Scripture says what Scripture says. Scripture does not say kill the Jewish people and I nor any Christian, I personally know, were ever taught Scripture says otherwise..

[chickenhead]

If you beleive in a spiritual nature of man and a spiritual world you must accept laws relating to that nature exist, just like the laws of the physical universe.

Actually, if you believe in free will, you cannot believe in a "law" of karma. The two cannot even conceptually coexist. Physical laws are not open to human free will, neither would a spiritual "law" that acted "just like the physical ones". You can't have it both ways.

What karma is is a description of common social dynamics. It's not a "law" of anything, spiritual or otherwise.

[Cangamble]

No there is the rub it is not the same. Josephus did not write the story of Jesus. Josephus is an independant observer with no dog in the fight. He wrote history for the Romans, not the Jews nor the Christians.

Your comparison compares a Gospel writer like Mark to the story telller of the mythical prophet. If you can't take the 4 Gospel writers as primary evidence of Christ, you certainly cannot take one writer writing about a prophet as primary evidence of the prophet's existence.
The story of Jesus was written after Josephus almost certainly. Again, he observed Christians who may or may not believed that Jesus was a real person. I'm pretty certain you didn't watch the video I provided.

And I lean towards Mohammed being a fictional person btw. That is what works best in almost every religion. Invent a person....not on purpose but just over time. And don't forget to attribute lots of miracles and discussions with God too.

The exception to the founder not being real rule might be Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith got away with his mystical experiences but no one else witnessed what he said he witnessed. Why people believe what he said he witnessed today is mind boggling.

[Show Me the Wire]

The story of Jesus was written after Josephus almost certainly. Again, he observed Christians who may or may not believed that Jesus was a real person. I'm pretty certain you didn't watch the video I provided.

And I lean towards Mohammed being a fictional person btw. That is what works best in almost every religion. Invent a person....not on purpose but just over time. And don't forget to attribute lots of miracles and discussions with God too.

The exception to the founder not being real rule might be Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith got away with his mystical experiences but no one else witnessed what he said he witnessed. Why people believe what he said he witnessed today is mind boggling.

Okay your original point has nothing to do with your first paragraph. Let's be clear. That is the importance of Josephus, that he did not wirte the story, but contrary to your assertion he was a contemporary that independently verified that a man named Jesus lived on earth and was crucified by the Roman Empire. Josephus' writings only verify that Jesus existed, during this specific time period, and was crucified.

About the leaning part, if you beleive by your set of criteria that Jesus is mythical you must affirmatively believe the prophet is mythical too.

As I said God bless.

[Cangamble]

Okay your original point has nothing to do with your first paragraph. Let's be clear. That is the importance of Josephus, that he did not wirte the story, but contrary to your assertion he was a contemporary that independently verified that a man named Jesus lived on earth and was crucified by the Roman Empire. Josephus' writings only verify that Jesus existed, during this specific time period, and was crucified.

About the leaning part, if you beleive by your set of criteria that Jesus is mythical you must affirmatively believe the prophet is mythical too.

As I said God bless.
First off, Josephus, if all his writings were not forged, just confirms there were Christians around 95 BC. Nothing more, nothing less. And these Christians may have believed that Jesus was a real or person, or for all I know, they believed he was a mystical vision.

And no, by my set of criteria, if Jesus was just mystical, it means that someone said he was, and just as I dismiss Joseph Smiths dreams, I also dismiss the first person who believed Jesus was a real dream.

[Show Me the Wire]

Actually, if you believe in free will, you cannot believe in a "law" of karma. The two cannot even conceptually coexist. Physical laws are not open to human free will, neither would a spiritual "law" that acted "just like the physical ones". You can't have it both ways.

What karma is is a description of common social dynamics. It's not a "law" of anything, spiritual or otherwise.

They can coexist and they do. In the physical world there is an opposite reaction, in the spiritual world there is a greater same reaction.

Karma is a spiritual concept, that can influence social dynamics, like any other spiritual doctrine. Like love thy neighbor is a spiritual concept that certainly influences social dynamics.

If I use my free will to do evil, I certainly that evil will return to me. Even the pagans believe this. Ask a practicing Wiccan if they believe in karma being returned.

[boxcar]

So God is orchestrating all the jew killing, so that one day in the future, when he decides to stop, they will say thanks? I had no idea God operated on the level of a shallow, jilted, sociopathic teenager. That's good to know.

I guess the concept of divine justice is foreign to you? Do you think the only kind of justice in this world is temporal in nature? Not only does scripture teach us much about divine justice but with respect to the Jews, specifically, we learn how God uses secondary means to implement it such as their enslavement in Egypt, the Babylonian Captivity and the Great Diaspora in 70 A.D. by the Roman army. Do you think the Israelites were overjoyed during these periods of captivity, upheaval and calamity? Do you think no Israelite suffered any harm during these historical periods? God, as righteous judge of all the earth, pours out his wrath upon unrighteous men in this world, as well in the age to come.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

First off, Josephus, if all his writings were not forged, just confirms there were Christians around 95 BC. Nothing more, nothing less. And these Christians may have believed that Jesus was a real or person, or for all I know, they believed he was a mystical vision.

And no, by my set of criteria, if Jesus was just mystical, it means that someone said he was, and just as I dismiss Joseph Smiths dreams, I also dismiss the first person who believed Jesus was a real dream.

But you don't dimiss the prophet or the only person that dreamed the prophet up. Okay fair enough.

[Show Me the Wire]

Let's take this a step further. Suppose I concede to you Josephus met with Christians after Christ's death.

Does that mean Josephus could have not heard of Christ during his youth from an eyewitness? Does it preclude that Josephus could not have talked to one of the original Apostles? Does my conceding your point prove that Josephus did not have access to Roman records of public execution? The time frame of his birth and life (unless that is wrong too) makes it very possible for him to have met an actual eyewitness to Christ.

Even if I concede your major point your argument fails for the lack of intellectual integrity. It fails because you have no more personal knowledge about what or who Josephus saw during his life than I do or anyone else that is currently living.

[Cangamble]

Let's take this a step further. Suppose I concede to you Josephus met with Christians after Christ's death.

Does that mean Josephus could have not heard of Christ during his youth from an eyewitness? Does it preclude that Josephus could not have talked to one of the original Apostles? Does my conceding your point prove that Josephus did not have access to Roman records of public execution? The time frame of his birth and life (unless that is wrong too) makes it very possible for him to have met an actual eyewitness to Christ.

Even if I concede your major point your argument fails for the lack of intellectual integrity. It fails because you have no more personal knowledge about what or who Josephus saw during his life than I do or anyone else that is currently living.
Of course it is possible, but it was never recorded by him. What prevented him or anyone else for that matter from writing about Jesus prior to then?
There were quite a few historians alive between 0-35 AD and not a peep was written about Jesus.

I'm sorry, but you aren't winning a thing with your spins here, and to be honest, you haven't written anything that I haven't seen before. And like I said, I doubt you watched the video or read the link I provided.

[Show Me the Wire]

My spin ha ha. Sure the historians are going to write the story before it happened, that is a good one. Jesus made his appeaence in a forsaken part of the Roman Empire. Far away from the limelight of Rome and yet his story was recorded, in a timely manner, and believed by enough of his contemporaries to change the whole Roman Empire.

I forget there is a large muslim population in Canada and I beleive the prophet himself acknowledged the existence of Jesus. However, the prophet clearly states that Jesus was not killed by the Romans. There you go another independent source verifying Jesus existed.

And I've heard your insipid arguments before. You think you are winning? Winning what? Neither of us have personal knowledge why Josephus wrote what he wrote, only faith and that is good enough for me.

[chickenhead]

I guess the concept of divine justice is foreign to you? Do you think the only kind of justice in this world is temporal in nature? Not only does scripture teach us much about divine justice but with respect to the Jews, specifically, we learn how God uses secondary means to implement it such as their enslavement in Egypt, the Babylonian Captivity and the Great Diaspora in 70 A.D. by the Roman army. Do you think the Israelites were overjoyed during these periods of captivity, upheaval and calamity? Do you think no Israelite suffered any harm during these historical periods? God, as righteous judge of all the earth, pours out his wrath upon unrighteous men in this world, as well in the age to come.

Boxcar

See, I knew I interpreted you correctly -- I don't know what SMTW was bringing up Wiccans for. (-- he tells me to ask a Wiccan. Do you have any idea how hard it is to even find a Wiccan, much less get a straight answer from one?)

And no, I don't believe in divine justice in this world. In the next perhaps, but not this one.

[Show Me the Wire]

-- I don't know what SMTW was bringing up Wiccans for. (-- he tells me to ask a Wiccan. Do you have any idea how hard it is to even find a Wiccan, much less get a straight answer from one?)....

:lol: To illustrate that pagans believe in spiritual karma. It wasn't in reference to boxcar.

Wiccans are not too difficult to find. Go to your local Barnes & Nobles and hang out in the New Age section or by the practice of Wicca books.

Or you may even want to check out the philosophy of reincarnation and spritual karma.

[Cangamble]

My spin ha ha. Sure the historians are going to write the story before it happened, that is a good one. Jesus made his appeaence in a forsaken part of the Roman Empire. Far away from the limelight of Rome and yet his story was recorded, in a timely manner, and believed by enough of his contemporaries to change the whole Roman Empire.

I forget there is a large muslim population in Canada and I beleive the prophet himself acknowledged the existence of Jesus. However, the prophet clearly states that Jesus was not killed by the Romans. There you go another independent source verifying Jesus existed.

And I've heard your insipid arguments before. You think you are winning? Winning what? Neither of us have personal knowledge why Josephus wrote what he wrote, only faith and that is good enough for me.
I'm not trying to win, I'm just backing up my statement that there is no contemporary evidence (from 1-35 AD) that backs up the existence of Jesus.

I don't know what the Muslim population of Canada has to do with anything. And Mohammed's writings backing up the existence of Jesus means the same to me as Horton saying there is a Whoville.

[Show Me the Wire]

No you are rejecting the possible evidence. You are rejecting the tradition of the Church that Mark's Gospel was the eyewitness account of Peter the Apostle and the written documents from the 1st century.
There is a difference between rejecting and proving.

You are simply rejecting. To quote hcap open your mind to other possibilities, put on the new wine skins.

What Islam has to do with it is this: you deny the existence of Jesus, but you will not deny the existence of the prophet of Islam. Therfore, you should believe an independent statement from a real person you believe in. After all isn't the prophet's writings and sayings divinely inspired?

[boxcar]

See, I knew I interpreted you correctly -- I don't know what SMTW was bringing up Wiccans for. (-- he tells me to ask a Wiccan. Do you have any idea how hard it is to even find a Wiccan, much less get a straight answer from one?)

And no, I don't believe in divine justice in this world. In the next perhaps, but not this one.

Then I can understand your objection. You hold to some kind of hybrid deism, perhaps? A god out there somewhere might be concerned about us in the next world, but certainly not this one?

And why do you ask me about Wiccans? If you're so interested in them, why don't you search for them on the web? You can find anything out there with a little effort.

Boxcar

[Light]

Blaming deaths during Iraqi sanctions on Israel? Are you for real? And how many Muslims did Israel really kill again? And how many Muslims would Israel kill if the Muslims put their arms down?

Is Darfur Israel's fault too? Do you blame deaths in Cuba on America as well?

1.5 million Iraqi's died due to the sanctions,half of them innocent children. And your first response is to defend Israel. Wow! I think even Hitler might have had a more sympathetic response than yours. I am humbled by your darkness.

[Cangamble]

No you are rejecting the possible evidence. You are rejecting the tradition of the Church that Mark's Gospel was the eyewitness account of Peter the Apostle and the written documents from the 1st century.
There is a difference between rejecting and proving.

You are simply rejecting. To quote hcap open your mind to other possibilities, put on the new wine skins.

What Islam has to do with it is this: you deny the existence of Jesus, but you will not deny the existence of the prophet of Islam. Therfore, you should believe an independent statement from a real person you believe in. After all isn't the prophet's writings and sayings divinely inspired?
I do deny the prophet of Islam. I said that it is very likely Mohammed never existed. Haven't you been reading?

And the eyewitnesses accounts of Peter appear to have been written way after the fact, and not even by Peter, if he ever existed.

I also reject Zeus and Thor. My list is long.

[Cangamble]

1.5 million Iraqi's died due to the sanctions,half of them innocent children. And your first response is to defend Israel. Wow! I think even Hitler might have had a more sympathetic response than yours. I am humbled by your darkness.
Excuse me, but you are the one who even brought Israel into this thread. And you are the one blaming Israel for the deaths of children in Iraq. I don't even think David Duke has thought about doing that. I still don't see where I'm showing any darkness here. But then again, the way you see the world is the way a Hamas leader most likely does.

[hcap]

Revealing statement hcap about the New Testament being written by fallible MEN. I assume you then believe the Books of Moses a/k/a The Pentateuch are also written by fallible Men?

You are correct, I am rightious in my statement as the New Testament is Divinely inspired writtings by Jewish writers writing about their own Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the Son of God.


Furthermore, I forgive you for your trespass aginst me via you personal attack and offer my other cheek.

I pray:
In the tender compassion of our God the dawn from on high shall break upon us, to shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death.Of course the OT was written by fallible men. As all scriptures from all the worlds' religions. As I said a great historical game of telephone.
Still, the original messages are well worth discovering.

You actually said this?
"Furthermore, I forgive you for your trespass aginst me via you personal attack and offer my other cheek."

I asked you to apologize to Jews and myself who read your Elders of Zion diatribe about Jewish bankers.....
The animosity against the Jews in the middle ages resulted due to Jews practicing banking commerce and high interest rates levied against borrowers. For indeed the love of money is the root of all evil.

And more importantly this statement...
The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world.

[fast4522]

Christianity, is one of the things that helped to make this country great. This country does not have to do as Europe does. There is no need to be less extreme when dealing with fire. We will follow this left wing agenda until the full US House is up for reelection. Make no mistake when things look the worst and things are very dim, our people rise to the occasion and reject European ways and revert to what is in the best interest of this country. We are not there yet, things will get much worse before they get better. During the peanut years the whole country knew Jimmy Carter was a good man in the wrong job, today this country will find out both accounts the hard way.

[Show Me the Wire]

Of course the OT was written by fallible men. As all scriptures from all the worlds' religions. As I said a great historical game of telephone.
Still, the original messages are well worth discovering.

You actually said this?
"Furthermore, I forgive you for your trespass aginst me via you personal attack and offer my other cheek."

I asked you to apologize to Jews and myself who read your Elders of Zion diatribe about Jewish bankers.....


And more importantly this statement...

You have a reading comprehension problem. I did not launch into any diatribes. I gave you reasons why things happend. In fact I called the Nobles welchers (deadbeats) as they did not want to repay rightful debts. It is easy not to pay a debt if the person you owe is persecuted or dead.

The only apology should come from you to me. You see I offer you the other cheek and you slap it too, with this vile accusation about a non-existent diatribe. I forgive you again.

Hcap, I try to find the common bonds in spirituality while you make it your life's work to be diivisive. This is evident in many of the threads, which we engage in religious and spiritual debate.

[Show Me the Wire]

I do deny the prophet of Islam. I said that it is very likely Mohammed never existed. Haven't you been reading?

And the eyewitnesses accounts of Peter appear to have been written way after the fact, and not even by Peter, if he ever existed.

I also reject Zeus and Thor. My list is long.

Yes, I do read. I read the "modifier", likely, meaning there is a possibility he existed. You use this modifier in every post with regard to the prophet.

This means you have not definitely made your decision as to the prophet's existence.

you expressly omit any modifiers in referrence to Christ. You declare absolutely Christ did not exist. So yes I can read.


You cannot backup your statement about Peter's eyewitness account with any factual authority. Mark's Gospel fits well into the timeline of Peter's life.

I am not going to debate the same thing over and over. The bottom line, you reject any evidence. It is not my job to convince you in the existence of Christ and it is not your job to convice me otherwise.

But you should really educate yourself more, instead of listening to rehashed propoganda videos.

Hcap is right about this. You need to look at the context of the time period. In those times Jesus would not have written anything. Jesus was not a scribe, nor educated as one. What was important to the people is eyewitness testimony of at least two people. That is why Peter says we "testify" to the witnessing. This is the highest form of validation.

Another problem associated with the not so novel idea Jesus didn't write anything relates to what Jesus was teaching. Jesus interpreted the written word of Scripture. Jesus talked about what was already written in the Books of Moses and other sacred writings. It was already written, there was no need to write it again. Additionally, almost everyone was illeterate in those times and the preferred teaching device was parables or story telling. This is exactly what Jesus did.


I forgot to add this to the above.. According to Jewish tradition Scripture is the word of God and no writting shall be added to or subtracted from. Therefore, if Jesus wrote his teachings he would have violated Jewish law.

Now you can look at the above in historical context and say yes there is a reasonable explanaiton for Jesus' failure to leave writtings, since writing was reserved for a certain class jesus did not belong too, what Jesus taught was already written down in sacred text, and due to mass illeteracy the better way to communicate was through oral parables and teachings, without commiting blasphemy in the eyes of his audience.

[boxcar]

Mr. Cap wrote to SMTW:

And more importantly this statement...
Quote:
The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world.

You've gone off the deep end, 'cap. You have indeed taken the plunge! You want SMTW to apologize for a passage in the bible? You're out of your mind. :bang: :bang: When you meet Christ at the Judgment Seat, make your demands for apologies to him!

Boxcar

[Light]

Excuse me, but you are the one who even brought Israel into this thread.

Get a clue. What's the title of this thread? What group is being targetted in this thread? Who is Americas biggest enemy? What group are they?Who is America's biggest ally?Who is their biggest enemy?

When you connect the dots,you can answer your own wonderment for Israel being brought in the discussion.

And you are the one blaming Israel for the deaths of children in Iraq.

America,Britain and Israel. The Middle East axis of evil. They were all responsible for the deaths of 1.5 Iraqi Muslims as a result of their sanctions which included prohibiting medical supplies to aid dying children in Iraq which they needed because they were being starved to death by the sanctions. You cant get any more direct than that as to who's responsible for their deaths

I still don't see where I'm showing any darkness here.

You ignore the deaths of 1.5 million people in Iraq sponsered by the ME axis of evil due to your political predisposition. Anyone of those who died as a result of your country's stupidity and their allies,could have been as dear to you as members of your own family if you got to know them. In fact they could have been someone you loved more than yourself. Would your allegiance to America or Israel be more powerful than your love of someone more important to you than yourself? Its impossible. You would do everything in your power to keep them safe,including if they lived in a country that was being sanctioned. And when they died from lack of supplies due to your country's refusal to allow medical aid,how would you feel? There is only one answer. Since you cant see that or choose to ignore it,you will always be in darkness until you do.

[Show Me the Wire]

Sorry for the typos in my prior post, especially regarding the word illiterate. I know typos distract at times, but I am still confident the gist of my post is valid.

[Cangamble]

Yes, I do read. I read the "modifier", likely, meaning there is a possibility he existed. You use this modifier in every post with regard to the prophet.

This means you have not definitely made your decision as to the prophet's existence.

you expressly omit any modifiers in referrence to Christ. You declare absolutely Christ did not exist. So yes I can read.


You cannot backup your statement about Peter's eyewitness account with any factual authority. Mark's Gospel fits well into the timeline of Peter's life.

I am not going to debate the same thing over and over. The bottom line, you reject any evidence. It is not my job to convince you in the existence of Christ and it is not your job to convice me otherwise.

But you should really educate yourself more, instead of listening to rehashed propoganda videos.

Hcap is right about this. You need to look at the context of the time period. In those times Jesus would not have written anything. Jesus was not a scribe, nor educated as one. What was important to the people is eyewitness testimony of at least two people. That is why Peter says we "testify" to the witnessing. This is the highest form of validation.

Another problem associated with the not so novel idea Jesus didn't write anything relates to what Jesus was teaching. Jesus interpreted the written word of Scripture. Jesus talked about what was already written in the Books of Moses and other sacred writings. It was already written, there was no need to write it again. Additionally, almost everyone was illeterate in those times and the preferred teaching device was parables or story telling. This is exactly what Jesus did.


I forgot to add this to the above.. According to Jewish tradition Scripture is the word of God and no writting shall be added to or subtracted from. Therefore, if Jesus wrote his teachings he would have violated Jewish law.

Now you can look at the above in historical context and say yes there is a reasonable explanaiton for Jesus' failure to leave writtings, since writing was reserved for a certain class jesus did not belong too, what Jesus taught was already written down in sacred text, and due to mass illeteracy the better way to communicate was through oral parables and teachings, without commiting blasphemy in the eyes of his audience.
This is getting stupid. Read post 61. I used the words most probably. Sorry, but that doesn't mean 100%. I can't know for sure.
Secondly, I said I didn't do as much research into the myth of Mohammed as I did Moses or Jesus. I have no idea why you call him the prophet. Do you think he was a prophet?
And again, John Armstrong beat the heck out of your apologetics regarding Jesus' supposed existence.
He most likely didn't exist. That's a fact Jack.

[Cangamble]

Sorry for the typos in my prior post, especially regarding the word illiterate. I know typos distract at times, but I am still confident the gist of my post is valid.
No problem. I figured it all out, and again, what you want to call evidence, is not evidence in the least.

[Cangamble]

[Get a clue. What's the title of this thread? What group is being targetted in this thread? Who is Americas biggest enemy? What group are they?Who is America's biggest ally?Who is their biggest enemy?
*****************************
Islam is being targeted in this thread. Nothing to do with Israel. Sorry. But I've looked back and you are nothing but a Jihadist loving moron.

When you connect the dots,you can answer your own wonderment for Israel being brought in the discussion.
*******************
Paranoid freaks like you probably blame stubbing your toe on Jooos.



America,Britain and Israel. The Middle East axis of evil. They were all responsible for the deaths of 1.5 Iraqi Muslims as a result of their sanctions which included prohibiting medical supplies to aid dying children in Iraq which they needed because they were being starved to death by the sanctions. You cant get any more direct than that as to who's responsible for their deaths
************************************
Why were the sanctions imposed? It had nothing to do with Israel. Again, and this valid, who do you blame for Darfur?

Your axis of evil is my Western civilization. I don't think you belong here.



You ignore the deaths of 1.5 million people in Iraq sponsered by the ME axis of evil due to your political predisposition. Anyone of those who died as a result of your country's stupidity and their allies,could have been as dear to you as members of your own family if you got to know them. In fact they could have been someone you loved more than yourself. Would your allegiance to America or Israel be more powerful than your love of someone more important to you than yourself? Its impossible. You would do everything in your power to keep them safe,including if they lived in a country that was being sanctioned. And when they died from lack of supplies due to your country's refusal to allow medical aid,how would you feel? There is only one answer. Since you cant see that or choose to ignore it,you will always be in darkness until you do.
***********************************
I don't live in Iraq, I don't live in Darfur. There are terrible things that go on everywhere in the world. If you ask me who I empathize more with, I empathize with the family of a suicide bombing victim way more than I do a family that supports suicide bombings.

Anyone who gets their information off of Rense is a complete joke.

[Show Me the Wire]

As I said you have your opinion and I have mine. BTW I gave you reasoning, not apologetics or evidence, for the lack of Jesus' own writings. You cannot prove he did not exist so stop trying to force your opinion on me.

What I take from this discussion is that I have problems making you understand the distinction between my reasoning thought process from my factual evidence process.


A qualified expert will state something cannot have happened, because the technology, the science, or whatever is not at a certain level of sophistication. He will never say never because something may change… Your so-called experts are ready to say never without affirmative proof.


No qualified expert can say Jesus' lack of personal writings is absolute proof Jesus did not exist, nor can they say Josephus never wrote that statement, or say Josephus never talked to an eyewitness, etc. because they do not have any personal knowledge of the events nor any documentation to prove the Jesus story is a fraud.

You have offered no proof either, because you can't. Lack of proof does not mean something did not happen. For example, if I kept a diary and I failed to write in it I met a specific person today, it does not prove I never met that person.


All you have and everyone else has is circumstantial evidence of his existence or non-existence. Further, for your edification, in a court of law, circumstantial evidence is used to prove an affirmative action. Circumstantial evidence is not used to prove negatives. The circumstances make it likely that a specific event happened.

So if we use circumstantial evidence, the proper use it is to prove the existence. The whole reasoning behind using circumstantial evidence to prove a non-event is convluded and an improper use.

Based on the above, reasoning regarding circumstantial evidence is why I think your assertions are worthless. I should have been more detailed in my discussion about the use of circumstantial evidence.


So as you say this is getting ridiculous as you try to shove your opinion about the non-existence of Christ upon me. I hope we end this merry-go round ride at this time.


I wish you the best and hope you have many winning wagers.





p.s. Look up the word prophet in the Encarta Dictionary, English and you will get the reference.

[Cangamble]

As I said you have your opinion and I have mine. BTW I gave you reasoning, not apologetics or evidence, for the lack of Jesus' own writings. You cannot prove he did not exist so stop trying to force your opinion on me.

What I take from this discussion is that I have problems making you understand the distinction between my reasoning thought process from my factual evidence process.


A qualified expert will state something cannot have happened, because the technology, the science, or whatever is not at a certain level of sophistication. He will never say never because something may change… Your so-called experts are ready to say never without affirmative proof.


No qualified expert can say Jesus' lack of personal writings is absolute proof Jesus did not exist, nor can they say Josephus never wrote that statement, or say Josephus never talked to an eyewitness, etc. because they do not have any personal knowledge of the events nor any documentation to prove the Jesus story is a fraud.

You have offered no proof either, because you can't. Lack of proof does not mean something did not happen. For example, if I kept a diary and I failed to write in it I met a specific person today, it does not prove I never met that person.


All you have and everyone else has is circumstantial evidence of his existence or non-existence. Further, for your edification, in a court of law, circumstantial evidence is used to prove an affirmative action. Circumstantial evidence is not used to prove negatives. The circumstances make it likely that a specific event happened.

So if we use circumstantial evidence, the proper use it is to prove the existence. The whole reasoning behind using circumstantial evidence to prove a non-event is convluded and an improper use.

Based on the above, reasoning regarding circumstantial evidence is why I think your assertions are worthless. I should have been more detailed in my discussion about the use of circumstantial evidence.


So as you say this is getting ridiculous as you try to shove your opinion about the non-existence of Christ upon me. I hope we end this merry-go round ride at this time.


I wish you the best and hope you have many winning wagers.





p.s. Look up the word prophet in the Encarta Dictionary, English and you will get the reference.
I'm not trying to force my opinion on you. I'm backing up my own opinion.
Let me just add something, as far as a historical Jesus goes, there is as much contemporary evidence to back him up as there is evidence that Leprechauns exist.
If someone tells me they saw a Leprechaun, I cannot prove the Leprechaun doesn't exist. I'll readily admit to that.

[Show Me the Wire]

I wrote:

The animosity against the Jews in the middle ages resulted due to Jews practicing banking commerce and high interest rates levied against borrowers. For indeed the love of money is the root of all evil.

I get it. I do apologize for my transcribing error. The bolded statement as it stands infers the Jewish lenders were greedy.

The bolded sentence was meant to apply to the Christian nobles. I left out a prior sentence during my editing.

It was the nobles love of money I was talking about which led to the persecution of the Jewish lenders.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm not trying to force my opinion on you. I'm backing up my own opinion.
Let me just add something, as far as a historical Jesus goes, there is as much contemporary evidence to back him up as there is evidence that Leprechauns exist.
If someone tells me they saw a Leprechaun, I cannot prove the Leprechaun doesn't exist. I'll readily admit to that.

That is where we disagree. We disagree on the definition of contemporary and the proper use of circumstantial evidence.

And I won't say we will never agree as I do not know what discoveries the future will bring.


As I said best wishes.

[PaceAdvantage]

GREYFOX, I can't believe you just posted that picture of the beheading.

I don't know what people are smoking these days, thinking they can just post whatever the hell they want, but I assure you, this is not the case.

I don't know why I just don't ban the lot of idiots who continue to make my task a rather unpleasant one by ignoring the few rules that have been in place since the beginning.

[lsbets]

PA - would you object if someone posted a picture of the people jumping out of the WTC? Radical Islam is the enemy of civilization, yet many live in denial. When does it become inappropriate to offer a graphic representation of the evilness of the ideology?

[Greyfox]

GREYFOX, I can't believe you just posted that picture of the beheading.

I don't know what people are smoking these days, thinking they can just post whatever the hell they want, but I assure you, this is not the case.

I don't know why I just don't ban the lot of idiots who continue to make my task a rather unpleasant one by ignoring the few rules that have been in place since the beginning.

My apologies for sure.
The thread was about The Realities of Islam.
Public beheadings are a reality in Islamic countries.
Sometimes they take place in stadiums.
The picture that I posted was the least gruesome of many that are on the internet. But if we ignore that reality, we're papering over a major difference between cultures.
However, I can see where us in the west would find that picture distasteful,
so my apologies indeed.

Greyfox.

[PaceAdvantage]

If you read the terms here, one of them is that you are not to post anything that would be considered obscene. After looking up the term obscene in MW dictionary, your image would certainly fit that definition.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA - would you object if someone posted a picture of the people jumping out of the WTC? Radical Islam is the enemy of civilization, yet many live in denial. When does it become inappropriate to offer a graphic representation of the evilness of the ideology?Sex is a beautiful and wonderful thing as well, yet I don't allow people to post hardcore images of people engaging in various sex acts (much to toetoe's chagrin).

To directly answer your question lsbets, no, I wouldn't object to people posting an image of someone jumping out of the WTC, just as I wouldn't have objected to Greyfox posting an image of these terrorists and their murdered, beheaded victim (whose name escapes me at the moment) MOMENTS BEFORE the beheading....

If you post a picture of the 9/11 jumpers splattered on the ground, yeah, I would give you the same message I gave Greyfox.

Again, this is all common sense...you guys really should know better.

[lsbets]

Sex is a beautiful and wonderful thing as well, yet I don't allow people to post hardcore images of people engaging in various sex acts (much to toetoe's chagrin).

To directly answer your question lsbets, no, I wouldn't object to people posting an image of someone jumping out of the WTC, just as I wouldn't have objected to Greyfox posting an image of these terrorists and their murdered, beheaded victim (whose name escapes me at the moment) MOMENTS BEFORE the beheading....

If you post a picture of the 9/11 jumpers splattered on the ground, yeah, I would give you the same message I gave Greyfox.

Again, this is all common sense...you guys really should know better.

Fair answer. Thanks.

Now about that sex thing ........... :lol:

[rastajenk]

It could give your traffic numbers a real boost.

[Light]

Islam is being targeted in this thread. Nothing to do with Israel. Sorry.
Islam has nothing to do with Israel? Tell that to Bin Laden.

Why were the sanctions imposed? It had nothing to do with Israel....

You're out of touch. You think American policy has nothing to do with Israel's
interests? You do know that most of those who orchestrated the invasion of Iraq were Jews dont you? You do know that Douglas Feith an extreme right wing Jew had Cheney eating out of the palm of his hand with respect to ME foreign policy, don't you? But maybe you were taking a nap. Let's take a look at the Obama administration.

Recently Charles Freeman, a veteran diplomat set to become the top U.S. intelligence analyst in Obama's administration had to withdraw his nomination due to AIPAC's character assasination on him.He released this statement:

The libels on me and their easily traceable email trails show conclusively that there is a powerful lobby determined to prevent any view other than its own from being aired, still less to factor in American understanding of trends and events in the Middle East. The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth. The aim of this Lobby is control of the policy process through the exercise of a veto over the appointment of people who dispute the wisdom of its views

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123672847973688515.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Anyone who gets their information off of Rense is a complete joke.
That's from the Wall Street Journal,not Rense.

But I've looked back and you are nothing but a Jihadist loving moron.

This is a top U.S.official ,with similar views as me regarding Israel's control of U.S. foreign policy. Is he a Jihadist now?

Try saying something intelligent instead of name calling. Or is name calling your highest level of intelligence?

[hcap]

I wrote:

The animosity against the Jews in the middle ages resulted due to Jews practicing banking commerce and high interest rates levied against borrowers. For indeed the love of money is the root of all evil.

I get it. I do apologize for my transcribing error. The bolded statement as it stands infers the Jewish lenders were greedy.

The bolded sentence was meant to apply to the Christian nobles. I left out a prior sentence during my editing.

It was the nobles love of money I was talking about which led to the persecution of the Jewish lenders.Thank you.


Now about this....
The Gospels clearly state the Jews killed Christ and St. Peter, the apostle of Christ, accused his fellow Jews of killing the Messiah and then demanded the Jews to repent.

.......The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world."acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line" So I am cursed today? And suffer divine persecution that God set in motion 2000 years ago?

Don't you see how twisted your interpretation of Christianity has become?

Maybe that does explain the very long list of Christian on Jewish atrocities I listed in post # 53? Should I list them again? Don't you see that by early Christians ( and you ) taking passages literally-that "the Jews killed Jesus", you devalue the inner meaning of the gospel story/myth, and have set in motion a twisted chain of events that allowed rampant Christian antisemitism.
This is what I meant by all religions being a double edged sword.

The "Jews" that killed Jesus are an inner representation of the resistance of the Pharisees and "official" Scribes within us to spiritual growth.

You and boxcar talk religion. I talk spirituality. When religion turns 180 degrees against it's own counsel of inner growth it is no longer the same religion. And generally a new teaching arrives. The OT as practiced by many Jews at that time became encrusted by the literal. And a shell of its' former understanding. Christianity was a spiritual correction. Meant for that time and age. Eventually it as well turned 180 degrees.

But the "real" Judaism and Christianity still exist beneath the surface.

[PaceAdvantage]

You do know that most of those who orchestrated the invasion of Iraq were Jews dont you? You do know that Douglas Feith an extreme right wing Jew had Cheney eating out of the palm of his hand with respect to ME foreign policy, don't you?If what you say is the truth (and here you go again, bordering on the stereotypical, offensive and bigoted "Jews control the world, the money, etc. etc."), then why didn't these "Jew orchestrators" simply pull a "Tom" and take out all of Israel's enemies in one fell swoop in the ME, thereby creating utopia for Israel and everyone lives happily ever after (who isn't an enemy of Israel).

Hell, according to your own words, Bush told Israel they couldn't even go and get rid of Iran's nuclear program.

You're not adding up here...which is pretty much par for the course when it comes to this topic.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only country that used immigration for domination were the Jews, in a Zionist plot,pre planned and implemented for the creation of Israel.I just got to reading my email which had been backed up due to a Vista boondoggle...here's what a concerned reader wrote me regarding your quote above:

There is your specific example of a vile racist post from Light The "pre=planned" plot he and his ilk are referring to is the holocaust. That might be the most disgusting post ever on this board, and that says a lot.How is hcap going to defend you on this one Light?

[hcap]

If you let Light defend himself, it would be correct not to edit his words.
Meanwhile I am defending myself and other Jews from SMTWs' biblical cosmic antisemitism. Theoretically ordained by God in the NT. Theoretically because according to SWTW Jews admitted and "acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ".

Consider the following:

1-Traditional Judaism does not accept the New Testament.
2-There is no evidence that God wrote any books of the bible
3-There is quite a bit of evidence that Christian antisemitism is originated because of SMTWs very points. See my post # 53
4-Many Jews consider the entire argument as stated by SWTW and supported by boxcar insulting and antisemitic.

Here is a statement by the Vatican in 1965 officially declaring that the entire Jewish race shouldn't be held guilty of deicide
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html


I noticed you did not edit any of the antisemitic comments. Of course antisemitism is still part and parcel of certain schools of Christianity. As demonstrated by SMTW. Thankfully many Christians no longer believe this crap.

[Cangamble]

Islam has nothing to do with Israel? Tell that to Bin Laden.



You're out of touch. You think American policy has nothing to do with Israel's
interests? You do know that most of those who orchestrated the invasion of Iraq were Jews dont you? You do know that Douglas Feith an extreme right wing Jew had Cheney eating out of the palm of his hand with respect to ME foreign policy, don't you? But maybe you were taking a nap. Let's take a look at the Obama administration.

Recently Charles Freeman, a veteran diplomat set to become the top U.S. intelligence analyst in Obama's administration had to withdraw his nomination due to AIPAC's character assasination on him.He released this statement:

The libels on me and their easily traceable email trails show conclusively that there is a powerful lobby determined to prevent any view other than its own from being aired, still less to factor in American understanding of trends and events in the Middle East. The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth. The aim of this Lobby is control of the policy process through the exercise of a veto over the appointment of people who dispute the wisdom of its views

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123672847973688515.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


That's from the Wall Street Journal,not Rense.



This is a top U.S.official ,with similar views as me regarding Israel's control of U.S. foreign policy. Is he a Jihadist now?

Try saying something intelligent instead of name calling. Or is name calling your highest level of intelligence?

One US official? Big whoop. I'm not going to argue that AIPAC is a powerful lobby, but that is all it is, a lobby.
The fact that Feith is a Jew means very little. The reality is that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. That is why America supports them.
Israeli civilization is the only civilization that comes close to Western civilization in the ME.
TFB that Freeman had to withdraw because he is either anti-semitic or anti-West, just like you appear to be.
And I checked your older posts. You have quoted from Rense in the past. That makes you a numbskull.

[PaceAdvantage]

I noticed you did not edit any of the antisemitic comments. Of course antisemitism is still part and parcel of certain schools of Christianity.I didn't edit light's comment that I received the email on either. What is your obsession with being board cop? Stick to what you're good at.

[boxcar]

Thank you.


Now about this....
"acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line" So I am cursed today? And suffer divine persecution that God set in motion 2000 years ago?

Don't you see how twisted your interpretation of Christianity has become?

No, I don't. Furthermore, I'm not talking "religion", I'm talking what the bible clearly and plainly teaches. And it teaches that the Father sent his Son to his chosen people, and the Jews as a nation rejected their promised messiah. And because they rejected him, they are indeed "under this curse". Or as Paul describes it "a partial hardening" of their heart until the end.

And I'll say it again -- both Jews and Gentiles share equally in the guilt of murdering Jesus. The Jews were an accessory before the fact. The Jews delivered Christ up to Rome (i.e. Pontius Pilate) to be killed, and they did this with all their false accusations against him. Even Judas broke down and confessed that he betrayed "innocent blood", but the chief priests and elders cared not a whit about that little detail.

And Pilate, too, knew Jesus was innocent. He knew the Jews delivered Christ up to him merely out of envy -- and nothing more (Mat 27:18). And Pilate was even warned by his wife to have nothing to do with this righteous man. And when Pilate asked the Jews what evil had he done, all they could do was shout out to Pilate to crucify Jesus (Mat 27:23). So, in the end, they demanded of Pilate that he release a notorious criminal Barabbas from prison and in his place crucify the Christ! (Talk about adding insult to injury. The guilty man was freed while the innocent was sentenced to death! And then you wonder why Israel is under a curse to this day!?) And what was Pilate's reaction to all this? Did he not wash his hands and proclaim that he was innocent of this man's blood? Why would Pilate do that unless he knew Jesus was innocent? But even so...because Pilate was a coward, he acquiesced to the Jews' demands and carried through the sentence. The "hit man" was Rome and the "contract" was bought and paid for by the Jews! Therefore, both Jews and Gentiles are equally guilty!

You can twist and pervert the scriptures until your heart is content but your spiritually dark interpretations will never change the plain words of these passages and their equally plain meaning.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

In the meanwhile, and not in Biblical or Koran times, whether Jesus or the Prophet ever existed.....more realities surface. There's a lot of sick stuff about Islam and Islamic cultures that is not being addressed in this thread.

In the latest news:

8-year-old Saudi girl divorces 50-year-old husband
By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI – 15 hours ago

CAIRO (AP) — An 8-year-old Saudi girl has divorced her middle-aged husband after her father forced her to marry him last year in exchange for about $13,000, her lawyer said Thursday. Saudi Arabia has come under increasing criticism at home and abroad for permitting child marriages. The United States, a close ally of the conservative Muslim kingdom, has called child marriage a "clear and unacceptable" violation of human rights.

The girl was allowed to divorce the 50-year-old man who she married in August after an out-of-court settlement had been reached in the case, said her lawyer, Abdulla al-Jeteli. The exact date of the divorce was not immediately known.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g48ZZZzDAqSXRc4c874tLg5dwbZAD97T3SEG1

[Show Me the Wire]

Thank you.


Now about this....
"acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line" So I am cursed today? And suffer divine persecution that God set in motion 2000 years ago?

Don't you see how twisted your interpretation of Christianity has become?

Maybe that does explain the very long list of Christian on Jewish atrocities I listed in post # 53? Should I list them again? Don't you see that by early Christians ( and you ) taking passages literally-that "the Jews killed Jesus", you devalue the inner meaning of the gospel story/myth, and have set in motion a twisted chain of events that allowed rampant Christian antisemitism.
This is what I meant by all religions being a double edged sword.

The "Jews" that killed Jesus are an inner representation of the resistance of the Pharisees and "official" Scribes within us to spiritual growth.

You and boxcar talk religion. I talk spirituality. When religion turns 180 degrees against it's own counsel of inner growth it is no longer the same religion. And generally a new teaching arrives. The OT as practiced by many Jews at that time became encrusted by the literal. And a shell of its' former understanding. Christianity was a spiritual correction. Meant for that time and age. Eventually it as well turned 180 degrees.

But the "real" Judaism and Christianity still exist beneath the surface.

Knock it off. All my posts were clear, in my understanding, the Jewish writers of the Gospels were accusing the Jewish Religious leadership, as did Jesus. There is nothing twisted about my understanding. Do not try and take an editing error, which I apologized about and printed my correction, to invalidate the whole topic.

The people, in the crowd, written about by Mark were ordinary Jews driven to frenzy by their religious leadership. The crowd was not filled with Romans, but Jews. These people at the urging of their religious leaders cursed themselves according to the author of inspired Scripture. I will not apologize for what is Scriptural writing and my correct understanding.

I agreed with your point about the unfair treatment of Jews throughout history and I tried to show you that the atrocities were committed on account of the so-called Christian nobility and rulers, not because of the ordinary Christian. This is the point you try to hammer home about Jews regarding Jesus' death, so why do you refuse the same point regarding ordinary contemporary Christians.

As you stated no dogma from the Church, the religious leaders, ever advocated or taught Christians to take revenge on Jews for Christ’s death.

As Christians we accept Christ had to die to fulfill Scripture. Knowing Christ had to die would make a theology based on blaming ordinary Jews ridiculous. That is where for the love of money comment was meant to highlight that. People do evil things for the love of money, including bearing false testimony.

I also believe in the power of the spoken word, prayer and curses on the spiritual level. I would not want to curse myself or my children and neither would the Jewish people of Jesus' time., but according to the Gospel they did.

[Light]

If what you say is the truth (and here you go again, bordering on the stereotypical, offensive and bigoted "Jews control the world, the money, etc. etc."), then why didn't these "Jew orchestrators" simply pull a "Tom" and take out all of Israel's enemies in one fell swoop in the ME, thereby creating utopia for Israel and everyone lives happily ever after (who isn't an enemy of Israel).

How do you propose they do that? Israel cannot nuke without getting radiation poisoning blowback. Second you will also contaminate neighbors who are at peace with Israel,such as Jordan,Egypt and Turkey. Not good for relations.

Third,Israel is not as militarily dominant as before even with their superior technology. Hezbollah has fought a war equivalent to the Vietnamese vs the U.S.

Fourth a full scale war by Israel is also ill advised without a reason. As I said,Jews orchestrated the Iraq invasion,but they did have to spend some time selling it to the American people. And as we all know now,it was a bunch a lies.

Hell, according to your own words, Bush told Israel they couldn't even go and get rid of Iran's nuclear program.

You're not adding up here...which is pretty much par for the course when it comes to this topic.

Yes,Bush told Israel not to bomb Iran, because Bush's advisors told him it was not a good idea at this time because it would hurt the U.S. who is already overloaded in 2 other wars. I dont see that as a slap in the face to Israel,rather as two allies working together.

[Light]

I just got to reading my email which had been backed up due to a Vista boondoggle...here's what a concerned reader wrote me regarding your quote above:

There is your specific example of a vile racist post from Light The "pre=planned" plot he and his ilk are referring to is the holocaust. That might be the most disgusting post ever on this board, and that says a lot.

How is hcap going to defend you on this one Light?

This is the problem when the upset member goes to you and gives you his erroneous interpretation of what I said. Evidentally you believe his twisted interpretation of what I said, but no, I am not reffering to the Holaucaust. This pre planning for the creation of Israel happened well before the Holocaust around WW1. If you want some links to the founder of the Zionist movement using immigration as a weapon,I have no problem providing links.

[Cangamble]

Jews orchestrated the Iraq invasion
*********************
Why? Really, if Israel (I know you tie Jews and Israel in an inseparable way) were to attack a neighbour, why would they have chose Iraq over Iran or Syria?
What did Israel gain by the US invading Iraq?
Oh wait, I'm sure you have loads of material from Rense:lol:

[Cangamble]

This is the problem when the upset member goes to you and gives you his erroneous interpretation of what I said. Evidentally you believe his twisted interpretation of what I said, but no, I am not reffering to the Holaucaust. This pre planning for the creation of Israel happened well before the Holocaust around WW1. If you want some links to the founder of the Zionist movement using immigration as a weapon,I have no problem providing links.
You mean a land that had 500,000 people at the time and 50,000 of them were Jews (a land that now incidentally holds over 9 million people), and that only 25% of the land was cultivated and lived on in the late 1800's? That land?
What about the fact that Dearborn Michigan is now over 50% Muslim. Does that bother you?
Or how about the fact that over 10 million people in Brazil today are of Arab ancestry? Oh wait, that wasn't planned like the evil Zionists planned when they took over Israel.

[Light]

And I checked your older posts. You have quoted from Rense in the past. That makes you a numbskull.

Hey PA. This guy keeps calling me names. I would appreciate a little moderating here.

Regarding Rense. I posted one time from their site because they had a nice,more complete list of Jews in American politics. I got flack for it back then but I challenged everyone several times to dipute the content of what I posted. Nobody did and nobody has and nobody can because its the truth.

One US official? Big whoop.

I dont have time to write you the history of the ME. But there's plenty more where that came from. Just Holla.

I'm not going to argue that AIPAC is a powerful lobby, but that is all it is, a lobby.

They control Congress on ME foreign policy. You need to read a newspaper once in a while


The fact that Feith is a Jew means very little.

Third ranked in the Pentagon passing classified info to Israel means very little.? One of the Jewish architects of the Iraq invasion means very little?You are amazingly underinformed for this topic.

The reality is that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. That is why America supports them.

Hamas has a Democracy too. Your arguments hold no water.

[toetoe]

1) Racists.

2) Vile Racists.

3) Statistics ... er sumthin like that. (:Scratching head.)

Hcap,

I think we may agree on something here. Do I understand that the Chosen People/Victims legend is not something you believe in ?

I have always had a slight problem with that Chosen People justification for the establishment of latter day Israel. That said, I see no justification for ousting or destroying the Israelites.

[lsbets]

Regarding Rense. I posted one time from their site because they had a nice,more complete list of Jews in American politics. I got flack for it back then but I challenged everyone several times to dipute the content of what I posted. Nobody did and nobody has and nobody can because its the truth.


The list you used had Colin Powell as a "secret Jew". Anyone with intelligence laughed at that and picked up on the obvious bias. Then it was found that the article you used came from David Duke. You were pretty well discredited with all reasonable at that point.

[Cangamble]

Hey PA. This guy keeps calling me names. I would appreciate a little moderating here.
*****************************
What I said about you is pale in comparison to what you are calling Joooos.

Regarding Rense. I posted one time from their site because they had a nice,more complete list of Jews in American politics. I got flack for it back then but I challenged everyone several times to dipute the content of what I posted. Nobody did and nobody has and nobody can because its the truth
***************************
See Isbets reply. Colin Powell Secret Jew:lol::lol::lol::lol:



I dont have time to write you the history of the ME. But there's plenty more where that came from. Just Holla.
**************************
I know more about the history of the middle east than you. I use real history books.


They control Congress on ME foreign policy. You need to read a newspaper once in a while
*********************
They:lol::lol::lol::lol:




Third ranked in the Pentagon passing classified info to Israel means very little.? One of the Jewish architects of the Iraq invasion means very little?You are amazingly underinformed for this topic.
****************************
You still haven't given a reason as to why it was Iraq and not Syria, Iran or Saudi Arabia.



Hamas has a Democracy too. Your arguments hold no water.
*************************
I'm talking a Western democracy. Something that you just don't understand. And if a group of people vote in terrorists, it means they are an anti-Western "civilization."

[Cangamble]

1) Racists.

2) Vile Racists.

3) Statistics ... er sumthin like that. (:Scratching head.)

Hcap,

I think we may agree on something here. Do I understand that the Chosen People/Victims legend is not something you believe in ?

I have always had a slight problem with that Chosen People justification for the establishment of latter day Israel. That said, I see no justification for ousting or destroying the Israelites.
Herzl, the founder of the modern Zionist movement was agnostic most likely.
He saw the anti-semitism that was going on in Europe, and wanted a place of refuge. He even considered Zaire, though only briefly.
His goal was to have a place where Jews could be guaranteed to be treated as equals.
Of course, because the majority of Jews of that time bought into the God promised the land to the Jews, the location made sense on both levels.

[Light]

What I said about you is pale in comparison to what you are calling Joooos.

What exactly am I calling them?


I know more about the history of the middle east than you. I use real history books... You still haven't given a reason as to why it was Iraq and not Syria, Iran or Saudi Arabia.

If you dont know by know,maybe you should read one of those history books. FYI, I've covered why we invaded Iraq many times. Search my name with something other than Rense.You're kind've late to the party.



I'm talking a Western democracy. Something that you just don't understand. And if a group of people vote in terrorists, it means they are an anti-Western "civilization."


Once again,open up your damn history books. Israel was founded on terrorism. All the politicians in Israel's government are either terrorists or have links to terrorism from Israel's past. Tivni Livni's dad was head of the Irgun gang during Israel's murder of Palestinians during 1948. Just one of the many Jewish gangs that terrorized Palestinians out of Palestine. But to Americans,its made out to be that the Palestinians ran away for no apparent reason. Propaganda courtesy of the Israeli dominated press. Did it ever occur to you that Israel was only granted 1/2 of Palestine in 1948. They terrorized the other half out of Palestine. Palestinians have a legal right to that land and are made to look like the bad guy.

[cj's dad]

why don't you really tell us how you feel about the Jews ??

[Greyfox]

Once again,open up your damn history books. Israel was founded on terrorism. .

Can you or anyone else name any nation or state on earth that wasn't founded on terrorism?

[dav4463]

When and if the US turns it back on Israel; we are all doomed.

[rastajenk]

And I checked your older posts. You have quoted from Rense in the past. That makes you a numbskull. Amen to that. :D

[Cangamble]

What exactly am I calling them?
*******************
What did the Protocols call them?




If you dont know by know,maybe you should read one of those history books. FYI, I've covered why we invaded Iraq many times. Search my name with something other than Rense.You're kind've late to the party.
*******************************
Again, why Iraq, and why not Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syria?






Once again,open up your damn history books. Israel was founded on terrorism. All the politicians in Israel's government are either terrorists or have links to terrorism from Israel's past. Tivni Livni's dad was head of the Irgun gang during Israel's murder of Palestinians during 1948. Just one of the many Jewish gangs that terrorized Palestinians out of Palestine. But to Americans,its made out to be that the Palestinians ran away for no apparent reason. Propaganda courtesy of the Israeli dominated press. Did it ever occur to you that Israel was only granted 1/2 of Palestine in 1948. They terrorized the other half out of Palestine. Palestinians have a legal right to that land and are made to look like the bad guy.
******************************
Every country on this planet was founded by war or negotiations. The Arabs started the war in 1948. Many Arabs left on their own at the urging of the Arab brain trust, and yes many Arabs were forced to leave during the war. Many had an opportunity to come back, but the Arab brain trust urged them not to.

Yes, half of the land was supposed to be run by a Jewish majority (a Jewish majority did exist on that land by 1947). The Arabs (mostly thanks to the surrounding Arab countries) rejected the partition and started a war. If they would have won, the Jews wouldn't have half the state back either. You seem to be neglecting that point, like all Jihadists do.

Real history:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel_at_60/article/how_to_answer_the_most_common_antiisrael_charges_2 0080516/

[Greyfox]

*******************




Every country on this planet was founded by war or negotiations.

While ignoring my question, you're supporting what I said above.
People don't enter into "negotiations" about their land except in fear.
No one will name a nation or state that wasn't founded on terrorism.

[Cangamble]

While ignoring my question, you're supporting what I said above.
People don't enter into "negotiations" about their land except in fear.
No one will name a nation or state that wasn't founded on terrorism.
I saw your question after I posted my response to Light. And your question is to Light. He cherry picks the questions posed to him, so don't expect an answer.

There have been some instances where negotiations alone have created states. I think many Arab nations were created without terrorism (at least terrorism wasn't an element as it was just the colonialists getting out of Dodge).

But almost all land throughout history was won by war which included terrorism (depending how you want to define terrorism).

We know how America was founded and how land was acquired. But after a while, the land given back to Native Americans was done mainly out of negotiations....terrorism had long left the building.

[Greyfox]

I think many Arab nations were created without terrorism (at least terrorism wasn't an element as it was just the colonialists getting out of Dodge).

.
Right.
The fact that Britain, France, and others were there controlling the allotments means that terrorism had already taken place. Most of the middle east was determined by Winston Churchill drawing straight lines where he thought nations should go.
Unfortunately, and in spite of his other brilliances, he knew bugger all about the various tribes and ethnic groups and hence a lot of trouble today.

[robert99]

The story of the Arab betrayal by UK and France is told in the film Lawrence of Arabia. The Arabs helped the allies to remove the Turks from their Ottoman Empire within their lands. That Empire lasted from 1300 to 1922 so who would know who went where.

Churchill put together the broken pieces of the Ottoman Empire and unwittingly created a Middle Eastern powder keg. Inducing Arabs under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks to rebel against rule from Constantinople, the British during WWI convinced the Hashemite clan that they would rule over Syria. However, Britain had already promised the territory to the French. To make amends after the Great War, Churchill created the nation called Iraq and made the Hashemite leader, Feisel, king of a land to which he had no connections. Eventually this resulted in a 1958 military coup against the Iraqi Hashemite government and a series of increasingly bloody regimes until the ultimate nightmare of Ba’athist party rule under Saddam Hussein.

[robert99]

In the meanwhile, and not in Biblical or Koran times, whether Jesus or the Prophet ever existed.....more realities surface. There's a lot of sick stuff about Islam and Islamic cultures that is not being addressed in this thread.

In the latest news:

8-year-old Saudi girl divorces 50-year-old husband
By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI – 15 hours ago

CAIRO (AP) — An 8-year-old Saudi girl has divorced her middle-aged husband after her father forced her to marry him last year in exchange for about $13,000, her lawyer said Thursday. Saudi Arabia has come under increasing criticism at home and abroad for permitting child marriages. The United States, a close ally of the conservative Muslim kingdom, has called child marriage a "clear and unacceptable" violation of human rights.

The girl was allowed to divorce the 50-year-old man who she married in August after an out-of-court settlement had been reached in the case, said her lawyer, Abdulla al-Jeteli. The exact date of the divorce was not immediately known.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g48ZZZzDAqSXRc4c874tLg5dwbZAD97T3SEG1

There is a lot of sick stuff in Western culture too. Take the raping of a 2 year old girl. In little old UK, there are about 1400 similar cases each year where the police cannot get convictions due to the child's inability to provide Court evidence.
No one questions whether the perpetrators are Christian, Jews, Hindus etc. - but a Muslim charged with doing this and all hell would break loose.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6206013.ece

[lsbets]

You are equating society A where a man commits a horrible crime, raping a child, and is brought to justice with society B where marriage to children is legal, sanctioned, and common? Both acts are disgusting and evil - one society punishes them, one allows them. Big difference.

[Greyfox]

There is a lot of sick stuff in Western culture too.

Yes, we agree on that.
You're missing one point, an important one.
Rape is illegal in both societies.
Marriage of an 8 year old is illegal in the west!
Not there though.

[robert99]

You are equating society A where a man commits a horrible crime, raping a child, and is brought to justice with society B where marriage to children is legal, sanctioned, and common? Both acts are disgusting and evil - one society punishes them, one allows them. Big difference.

Yes, we agree on that.
You're missing one point, an important one.
Rape is illegal in both societies.
Marriage of an 8 year old is illegal in the west!
Not there though.

Society is wholly what the individuals in that society actually do and decide to do.
Some take advantage of no laws - some take advantage of "bad" laws - some break laws. US and UK jails are full of people who have broken laws. Many, many more who legally, but not morally, make society miserable for others are and will remain free.

You are both making the error of equating society as it effects people living in that society with laws in that society.
Not long ago in Alabama a child could be as young as 14 to be married - not 8, but still a child. In New Hampshire 13 is the current minimum, Texas 14, Utah, Hawaii, Missouri 15.
In Saudi, child brides require consent of clerics who may defer age for consummation. The "marriage" is often used to pay off debts or cement political and financial ties between influential families. Their society remains the way it has existed for the last 2000 years. Other Muslim countries have high minimum marriage ages similar to the West such as Pakistan, Malaysia 16, Syria, Yemen 17, Algeria , Egypt, Bangladesh 18. The lowest is Iran at 15. In rural areas the law may be ignored and the accepted ancient culture prevails. The Prophet Muhammad may have married a bride of 6 or 13 years old when he was 52 and sets an awkward precedent for the faithful - explained at:

http://www.ruqaiyyah.karoo.net/articles/childmarriage.htm

[Greyfox]

Society is wholly what the individuals in that society actually do and decide to do.


I agree to a point with each person being responsible for their own decisions.
Unfortunately, the punishment and obedience factor is so huge in many Islamic communities, it is only the rare individual who has the courage to step out of the lock step rules that are set down. Individual expression is punished.
If a woman were to wear a bikini in Tehran look out.

[PaceAdvantage]

As Reagan once sorta said, "There they go again!"

Here we see an individual JUSTIFYING what goes on in places like Saudi Arabia. JUSTIFYING, EXPLAINING AWAY, DRAWING (outrageous) COMPARISONS to something that isn't even remotely similar here in America.

These are the same people who when something went wrong in America, or anything that involved Bush happened, immedately brought the HAMMER OF PURE UNADULTERATED condemnation down in full force, with absolutely NO regard to anything that may justify or explain the situation.

But with stuff like this, they're scrambling to show us why what is happening isn't all that unique....after all the age to marry is 13 in New Hampshire...except he forgot to tell you that in New Hampshire:

A female between the age of 13 and 17 years and a male between the age of 14 and 17 years can be married only in cases of "special cause" with parental consent and court permission.Otherwise, the legal age is 18.

[lsbets]

See PA, that is why I personally had no problem with Greyfox's picture of the beheading. There is no equivalence between radical Islam and Western civilization, but there are many who are in denial about the evils of radical Islam, as best represented by the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia and their offshoots.

[Cangamble]

Here is the big problem made simple:

G6sW9Mt2axc

[Greyfox]

The first part of the video was a little boring and I almost shut it off.
But the farther that you watch it, the better it gets. Thanks for posting it.

[lsbets]

Great video. I wonder if Hcap will call you a racist for posting it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some more fuel for the fire:

‘THEY KILL PEOPLE LIKE US,’ SAYS GAY IRAQI'

Most of the attacks have happened in Baghdad’s Shia neighborhoods, and many believe that religious leaders have used Friday sermons in Sadr City as a platform to incite hatred and violence toward homosexuals.In a letter to Iraqi President Nouri al-Maliki in April, Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE14/010/2009/en/7c1167b7-1c98-45b0-9dec-478af87575a2/mde140102009en.html) called for "urgent and concerted action" to stop the killings of men because of their sexual orientation. Moyad believes that many have been killed by their own families in an effort to preserve their honor. "My friend Ahmed, from the neighborhood of Zafaraniya, was killed by his family for looking like a female. Those commandos tell the families to kill them or else they will kill them. I expect that my own brother might lead those guys to kill me."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/05/04/1921277.aspx

[boxcar]

Great video. I wonder if Hcap will call you a racist for posting it.

Either that or he'll post dozens of links and articles to all the atrocities committed in the name of Christ by professing Christians in bygone eras.

Boxcar

[hcap]

I am not defending terrorism. I stated that judging any religion by it's extremist factions is bull. Please don't paint me with a broad brush so typical of the right here. I posted Christian on Jewish atrocities to show that any religion can fall to inhumane acts by it's own knee jerk literal minded practitioners and fanatics. Both SMTW and boxcar have indicated an animosity between Jews and early Christians. And proclaimed Jewish responsibilty for the death of Jesus. By the Jewish elders giving up Christ to the Romans. Even if there is a historical correlation to real events-which is questionable-does the action of the Jewish elders justify persecution of the rest of the Jewih population. Then? Or now, or throughout the bloody history of Christianity? How does God make any similar judgment?

This very misinterpretation became the basis for bigotry and persecution of Jews by Christians. Why should I accept this as a Jew, or someone who can see logical mistakes of stilted doctrine? This is antisemitism. Clearly as misguided as extreme Sharia doctrine.

Martin Luther, initiated the Protestant Reformation. In his 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" Luther proposed to set fire to synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbade them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ.
Some history of Church approved persecution of Jews by Christians....

http://www.christianityandhumanrights.com/_jews.html

Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Christianity and its Persecutions of Jews

Without centuries of Christian anti-Semitism, Hitler's passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed.
.....Robert Runcie, Archbishop of Canterbury

"Early Christians specialised in causing trouble at synagogues, and disrupting Jewish services. Such behaviour had been censured by the pagan emperors, but under Christian ones official censure changed to toleration, and even encouragement. The first nominally Christian emperor, Constantine, was also the first significantly to limit the rights of Jews as citizens of the Roman empire. He imposed heavy penalties on anyone who converted to Judaism, and also on any Jewish community that received converts. In the next generation any Christian converting to Judaism would have all of his property confiscated. Marriages between Christians and Jews became capital offences. In later centuries the emperors became more strongly Christian, and the laws concerning Jews became correspondingly more discriminatory, intolerant and oppressive."


Btw, not only the Jews that were treated inhumanely, but many indigenous peoples....

"The indigenous peoples of the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand bear a tragic witness to what Christian nations have done, as have also the indigenous peoples of Africa and Asia. In a fifteenth century papal bull Pope Nicolas V instructed European Christian nations to "invade, capture, vanquish" and "subdue" Indigenous Peoples, "subjugate" them and "reduce their persons to perpetual slavery" and "to take away all their possessions and property."

......In a United Nations World Conference Against Racism document there are the words: "In the fifteenth century, two Papal Bulls set the stage for European domination of the New World and Africa. Romanus Pontifex, issued by Pope Nicholas V to King Alfonso V of Portugal in 1452, declared war against all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioned and promoted the conquest, colonization, and exploitation of non-Christian nations and their territories." This document also declares: "...the subjugation of the native peoples of the New World was legally sanctioned. 'Laws' of 'discovery', 'conquest' and 'terra nullius' made up the 'doctrines of dispossession'..." "These doctrines allowed Christian nations to claim 'unoccupied lands' (terra nullius), or lands belonging to 'heathens' or 'pagans'."
.................................................. ........................

Another lesser known example of Christian misapplication of it's own version of "Sharia" law, ignoring Christianity's higher aspirations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition#Historical_background

The Portuguese colonial administration enacted anti-Hindu laws with the expressed intent to "humiliate Hindus" and encourage conversions to Christianity. Laws were passed banning Christians from keeping Hindus in their employ, and the public worship of Hindus was deemed unlawful[10]. Hindus were forced to assemble periodically in churches to listen to preaching or to refutation of their religion.
...The Inquisition was established to punish relapsed New Christians – Jews and Muslims who converted to Catholicism, as well as their descendants – who were now suspected of practicing their ancestral religion in secret.

......Most of the Goa Inquisition's records were destroyed after its abolition in 1812, and it is thus impossible to know the exact number of the Inquisition's victims. Based on the records that survive, H. P. Salomon and I. S. D. Sassoon state that between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, some 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition. Of this number, it is known that 57 were sentenced to death and executed in person; another 64 were burned in effigy. Others were subjected to lesser punishments or penanced, but the fate of many of the Inquisition's victims is unknown.[4]

Gee, talk about Taliban beheadings...

.................................................. .............

There are 1.66 billion Muslims today. Terrorists acts are committed by a small percentage of fanatics. We cannot afford practicably to provide the extremists the propaganda to manipulate of the majority of moderate Muslims into their camp. I never said we should not be vigilante or let down our guard. But it really is a battle for hearts and minds. You gentlemen inflame hatred by misrepresenting Islam. Fodder for the extremists.

[Greyfox]

. You gentlemen inflame hatred by misrepresenting Islam. Fodder for the extremists.

By your own argument above, you'd be more accurate stating
extremist Muslims inflame hatred by misrepresenting Islam. It is not "us gentlemen" who are letting off suicide bombs in Baghdad. It is not "us gentlemen" who are condoning the rape of an 8 year old child via the mechanism of marriage. It is not "us gentlemen" who are threatening death to infidels.
It is not "us gentlemen" who are frightening women in Kandahar to leave the veils on or else. It is not "us gentlemen" standing in mosques screaming about death to homosexuals.
I couldn't care less about what religion a person worships. That's his or her business. However, from my perspective the moderate masses of Muslims seem to be cowering to the extremists. Their silence on many matters is deafening.

[hcap]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5ajtNJ0qTTRMBSFpYngMOjrmDbQ

....But the study, which Gallup says surveyed a sample equivalent to 90 percent of the world's Muslims, showed that widespread religiosity "does not translate into widespread support for terrorism," said Mogahed, director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies.

About 93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.

In majority Muslim countries, overwhelming majorities said religion was a very important part of their lives -- 99 percent in Indonesia, 98 percent in Egypt, 95 percent in Pakistan.

But only seven percent of the billion Muslims surveyed -- the radicals -- condoned the attacks on the United States in 2001, the poll showed.

Moderate Muslims interviewed for the poll condemned the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington because innocent lives were lost and civilians killed.


......................................

7% are radicals, what percentage of 7% are terrorists?
1%?. Using these numbers, and world population of 1.66 billion Muslims, gives just over 100,000. Pretty scary, but if 1% grows into 5 % we have a huge problem.

Either nuke 'em all now, or try to reach the possible pool of potential terrorists and 1.4 billion moderates.

It is not "us gentlemen" who are letting off suicide bombs in Baghdad. It is not "us gentlemen" who are condoning the rape of an 8 year old child via the mechanism of marriage. It is not "us gentlemen" who are threatening death to infidels.
It is not "us gentlemen" who are frightening women in Kandahar to leave the veils on or else. It is not "us gentlemen" standing in mosques screaming about death to homosexuals.It is not the majority of Muslims either.

What do you suggest? Extermination of an entire religion because of a 100,000 loonies? If we were Jews during the middles age in Europe we could make the same argument against the Christians. Except then it was a much larger percentage of Christians that were the "Sharia Radicals"

[boxcar]

Hcap, if you want to talk about people being treated "inhumanely" (to borrow your term), then be prepared to give equal time to Christians in the early church who were persecuted by Jews. In fact, Christ-rejecting Jews were routinely persecuting and martyring Jewish Christians! It must be remembered that the early church was comprised mainly of Jewish believers! So, what we had was Jews murdering Jews. Now, if you don't believe me, I'll be happy to support this argument from the NT when I find some time -- which isn't right now.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

What do you suggest? "

I suggest that the Muslim Majority that you talk about stand up and start voicing their outrage about the atrocities that I mentioned.

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

Why do you habitually mischaracterize my statements and positions. I consistently stated the early violence was Jew against Jew. As Jews were the original followers of Christ, not Greeks ,Romans or otherwise. If you continue reading Acts it talks about the Jewish persecution of fellow Jews.

[boxcar]

hcap:

Why do you habitually mischaracterize my statements and positions. I consistently stated the early violence was Jew against Jew. As Jews were the original followers of Christ, not Greeks ,Romans or otherwise. If you continue reading Acts it talks about the Jewish persecution of fellow Jews.

And not only that, but we must never forget who was among the Jewish persecutors and wholeheartedly supported their activities prior to his conversion: Saul (a/k/a Paul as in the Apostle!).

Boxcar

[hcap]

-SMTW and boxcar-

Both of you feel free to post all the Jewish atrocities against Christians throughout the last 2000 years. Please do!

List all the Jewish massacres of Christians because of Jewish intolerance and specious arguments misinterpreted from any of the rabbinical commentaries of the Talmud or Mishnah or the Gemara.

You gentlemen have only tired cherry picked exerts from the New Testament. Foolish misunderstanding of the lessons contained in your own Scripture. We all killed Christ because of our inability to accept New Wine. And inability to recognize just how pathetic our inner world really is. Don't blame anyone else.

These are stories of our inner landscape with some historical references thrown in. Political events surrounding many scriptures become the backdrop for teaching stories designed to shake up many from their spiritual slumber. Not all of the original lessons however survive the humongous game of telephone passed down over the ages. Most of this stuff is better understood looked at thru' the "corner of your eye". Religion is a double edged sword that cuts away many cobwebs, but just as quickly turns and allows good men to kill each other and justify hatred by the "my God is truer than your God" lunacy.

Whether or not there is any semblance to real events of any scripture is almost besides the point. The reason that religious models carry down thru' the ages is because something within those tales-the mythical-the symbolical-still resonates within us.

.................................................. ....................................

As a Jew I don't accept any arguments placing blame on the Jews for any complicity in the death of Christ. And as someone familiar with many religions, also do not accept your historical and particularly literal miss-interpretations of much of the bible including the Old Testament.

Please see my post # 53. As I said feel free to compile a list of Jewish atrocities on Christians. For that matter Jewish atrocities against non Jews or indigenous peoples.
Feel free guys

hcap:

Why do you habitually mischaracterize my statements and positions. I consistently stated the early violence was Jew against Jew. As Jews were the original followers of Christ, not Greeks ,Romans or otherwise. If you continue reading Acts it talks about the Jewish persecution of fellow Jews. No mis-characterization. Please don't deny it.
.......The Jewish people acquiesced to being cursed along with their blood line for demanding the crucifixion of Christ. When Pilate washed his hands the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children. "Mt 27, 24-25. Since that time the Jewish people have had a highly disproportionate share of persecution in this world.The Gospels clearly state the Jews killed Christ and St. Peter, the apostle of Christ, accused his fellow Jews of killing the Messiah and then demanded the Jews to repent.

The Jewish leadership was responsible for the death of the Christ and the continuing genocide against Christ's early followers.

I am sure this animosity continued through the ages, but as you said there was no official doctrine of Christianity to persecute the Jews, which like the Jews officially sanctioned against the follower's of Christ.As for the Spanish inquisition this has been discussed here prior. The Jews were singled out because the influential Jewish community plotted against the Spanish nobles with the Moors from Africa. It seems the Spanish Jewish community sided with the eventual losers and suffered the consequences.Plotted against the Spanish nobles? Rewriting history aren't you? BTW,does that justify iron maidens, torture and 10,00's persecuted and killed?

You said all of the above. I, nor the entire Jewish population of early, late or any historical period are not responsible in any way for the death of Jesus. The "Jewish Leadership" depicted in the NT never spoke for me, the surrounding Jewish population, or the Jews of the last 2000 yeras.

And I never said there was no official doctrine.
There was.

[hcap]

I suggest that the Muslim Majority that you talk about stand up and start voicing their outrage about the atrocities that I mentioned.


http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


This page focuses on condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and other terrorist incidents since then as well as of terrorism in general. It is not a complete listing of all condemnations written or spoken by Muslims but is intended to provide a representative sample.

It has often been claimed in the media that Muslims are "silent" and do not condemn terrorism. This page is intended to refute that claim.

Muslim Leaders

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims Denouncing Terrorism

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by Organizations

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives



Specific Muslim Scholars

A Common Word Between Us and You, by 130 Islamic scholars

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim Winter)

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian Muslim leaders

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various scholars

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by various scholars

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul Qadri

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by Spanish Muslim leaders

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle

The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf

Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj

What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars



Individual Ordinary Muslims

Special links

A Country United- Poem by a Muslim woman about September 11

Islam Denounces Terrorism- Site of Muslim scholar Harun Yahya

Muslims Against Terrorism- An organization founded by Muslims who stand against the hijacking of Islam by extremists and terrorists

Report: Muslim Celebrities Condemn Attacks- Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Muhammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets

Muslim charities who solicited donations to help victims in New York City:

* Global Relief Foundation
* Islamic Relief
* Mercy USA

Articles, essays, and columns

Messages on Muslims' Websites:

* Al-Islam, by scholars at a Shi'ite resource site
* Islam: The Modern Religion, by Fareena Alam
* Islamic Studies page, by Alan Godlas (convert to Islam)
* Kamilat, by Talibah Jilani
* Muslim Answers, by Abd ar-Rahman Robert Squires
* Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part III - Statements & Articles by Individuals, by various individuals

See also: Muslim Imam Offers Words of Prayer at World Trade Center Memorial Ceremony

Bonus: View This Is Islam: "Islam, it's all about peace, terrorism it doesn't teach".



Ongoing: The Council on American-Islamic Relations

In an effort to show that Muslim activism against terrorism didn't stop after 9/11, this section contains press releases and statements by the Council on American-Islamic Relations condemning terrorist attacks. This is a resource in development. Subscribe to CAIR's mailing list to keep up with their latest statements and releases.

American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003

CAIR Calls for Release of All Hostages in Iraq - Tuesday, September 21, 2004

CAIR Condemns 'Barbaric' London Terror Attacks - Thursday, July 07, 2005

CAIR Condemns Attack On Seattle Jewish Center - Saturday, July 29, 2006

CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002

CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003

CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003

CAIR Condemns Hariri Assassination - Monday, February 14, 2005

CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004

CAIR Condemns Killing of British Hostage in Iraq - Friday, October 08, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of Margaret Hassan - Wednesday, November 17, 2004

CAIR Condemns School Killings in Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 2004

CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004

CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003

CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of hostages - 4/9/2004

CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004

CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004

CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004

CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)

CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003

CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004

CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March 19, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court - Friday, July 05, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns hate graffiti on Edmonton synagogue - Wednesday, December 28, 2005

CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in Pakistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001

CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people - Thursday, November 14, 2002

CAIR-NJ Offers Condolences to Coptic Community - Monday, January 17, 2005

CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003

Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday, October 15, 2001

Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism - Friday, March 05, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September 11, 2001

Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002

Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002

Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003

Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01

Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002

Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003

Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October 16, 2002

U.S. Imams Say Iraq Hostage-Takers Violate Islamic Beliefs - Friday, October 29, 2004

U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003

U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004

U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday, July 23, 2002

US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003

We repudiate terrorism - Ibrahim Hooper, July 11, 2007



Special: Muslims in the Military

Are American Muslims patriotic? Do they serve their country, or support America's response to the terrorist attacks? Read these stories to find out more

Islam Gains Place in U.S. Military As Ranks of Muslims Grow

Islamic Scholars Say U.S. Muslim Soldiers Must Fight for Country

Muslim soldier dies in Iraq

Muslims In Military: Arab-American proudly serves U.S.

Muslims in military say 'everybody belongs'

Muslims in the U.S. Military are As Loyal As Any, Chaplain Says

Ramadan a Sacred Time for U.S. Muslim Troops

Soldier of Faith

UK Muslims Must Obey UK Law, says Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem

Plus: American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans



Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some Quranic Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the Innocent.



homepage

[Pell Mell]

My suspicions are confirmed.

[PaceAdvantage]

About 93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.

In majority Muslim countries, overwhelming majorities said religion was a very important part of their lives -- 99 percent in Indonesia, 98 percent in Egypt, 95 percent in Pakistan.So where are these one billion moderates? Why aren't they RISING UP and SQUASHING the radicals through demonstrations, arrests, prosecutions, etc. etc.

These are very simple questions which should have very simple answers.

And oh yeah...aren't you one of the ones who thinks religion is just for fools like Bush? Aren't you one of the ones who sees a religious man as a weak and ignorant man? Because that's how the far-left sees religion...and you are definitely left of center, if not far-left.

So, shouldn't you be condemning all these backward folks from these nations where 95+ percent consider religion a very important part of their lives?

Or is that condemnation only reserved for Christians living here in the USA?

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Muslims Condemn Terrorist AttacksWho gives two shits what someone says. Where are the ACTIONS? Where are these almost BILLION moderate Muslims? Where's the US Muslim MARCH ON WASHINGTON demanding these RADICALS be hunted down and arrested for their crimes?

Where are the spontaneous uprisings in Muslim nations of moderates DEMANDING justice be brought against those radicals responsible for all this death and destruction?

I saw more GENUINE social protest on election night just outside the White House perimeter by those with genuine hatred of George W. Bush (you know the ones screaming for George to get out THAT NIGHT) than I have EVER seen from the moderate Muslim community demonstrating against the radicals among them.

Oh, but HCAP's GOT A LIST! :lol:

You're a regular riot! (pun intended)

[hcap]

Who gives two shits what someone says. Where are the ACTIONS? Where are these almost BILLION moderate Muslims? Where's the US Muslim MARCH ON WASHINGTON demanding these RADICALS be hunted down and arrested for their crimes?

Where are the spontaneous uprisings in Muslim nations of moderates DEMANDING justice be brought against those radicals responsible for all this death and destruction?

I saw more GENUINE social protest on election night just outside the White House perimeter by those with genuine hatred of George W. Bush (you know the ones screaming for George to get out THAT NIGHT) than I have EVER seen from the moderate Muslim community demonstrating against the radicals among them.

Oh, but HCAP's GOT A LIST! :lol:

You're a regular riot! (pun intended)To a certain extent you are right. I was answering Greyfox.
I suggest that the Muslim Majority that you talk about stand up and start voicing their outrage about the atrocities that I mentioned.

I am not excusing Muslim inaction, but I am not condemning 1.66 billion for their beliefs either.

The Islamic community must move into the 21st century. In many ways the historical/political environment from the 17th to 20th century was very different for Islamic countries than that of the west. The Renaissance, industrial revolution , Enlightenment and modernization that we experienced was almost non existent in the Islamic world. We moved from a church dominated middle age culture to one largely secular, humanistic and technological. They have a ways to go.

Before we nuke 'em. we should sell em coke a cola and IPODS and McDonalds.
Not the high points of western civilization but along with semi-free speech, a game changer. Most third wold countries start there. The lack of washing machines and nylons helped in the demise of the old Soviet Union.

[newtothegame]

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


This page focuses on condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and other terrorist incidents since then as well as of terrorism in general. It is not a complete listing of all condemnations written or spoken by Muslims but is intended to provide a representative sample.

It has often been claimed in the media that Muslims are "silent" and do not condemn terrorism. This page is intended to refute that claim.

Muslim Leaders

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims Denouncing Terrorism

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by Organizations

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives



Specific Muslim Scholars

A Common Word Between Us and You, by 130 Islamic scholars

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim Winter)

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian Muslim leaders

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various scholars

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by various scholars

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul Qadri

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by Spanish Muslim leaders

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle

The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf

Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj

What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars



Individual Ordinary Muslims

Special links

A Country United- Poem by a Muslim woman about September 11

Islam Denounces Terrorism- Site of Muslim scholar Harun Yahya

Muslims Against Terrorism- An organization founded by Muslims who stand against the hijacking of Islam by extremists and terrorists

Report: Muslim Celebrities Condemn Attacks- Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Muhammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets

Muslim charities who solicited donations to help victims in New York City:

* Global Relief Foundation
* Islamic Relief
* Mercy USA

Articles, essays, and columns

Messages on Muslims' Websites:

* Al-Islam, by scholars at a Shi'ite resource site
* Islam: The Modern Religion, by Fareena Alam
* Islamic Studies page, by Alan Godlas (convert to Islam)
* Kamilat, by Talibah Jilani
* Muslim Answers, by Abd ar-Rahman Robert Squires
* Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part III - Statements & Articles by Individuals, by various individuals

See also: Muslim Imam Offers Words of Prayer at World Trade Center Memorial Ceremony

Bonus: View This Is Islam: "Islam, it's all about peace, terrorism it doesn't teach".



Ongoing: The Council on American-Islamic Relations

In an effort to show that Muslim activism against terrorism didn't stop after 9/11, this section contains press releases and statements by the Council on American-Islamic Relations condemning terrorist attacks. This is a resource in development. Subscribe to CAIR's mailing list to keep up with their latest statements and releases.

American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003

CAIR Calls for Release of All Hostages in Iraq - Tuesday, September 21, 2004

CAIR Condemns 'Barbaric' London Terror Attacks - Thursday, July 07, 2005

CAIR Condemns Attack On Seattle Jewish Center - Saturday, July 29, 2006

CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002

CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003

CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003

CAIR Condemns Hariri Assassination - Monday, February 14, 2005

CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004

CAIR Condemns Killing of British Hostage in Iraq - Friday, October 08, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of Margaret Hassan - Wednesday, November 17, 2004

CAIR Condemns School Killings in Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 2004

CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004

CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003

CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of hostages - 4/9/2004

CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004

CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004

CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004

CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)

CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003

CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004

CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March 19, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court - Friday, July 05, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns hate graffiti on Edmonton synagogue - Wednesday, December 28, 2005

CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in Pakistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001

CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people - Thursday, November 14, 2002

CAIR-NJ Offers Condolences to Coptic Community - Monday, January 17, 2005

CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003

Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday, October 15, 2001

Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism - Friday, March 05, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September 11, 2001

Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002

Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002

Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003

Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01

Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002

Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003

Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October 16, 2002

U.S. Imams Say Iraq Hostage-Takers Violate Islamic Beliefs - Friday, October 29, 2004

U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003

U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004

U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday, July 23, 2002

US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003

We repudiate terrorism - Ibrahim Hooper, July 11, 2007



Special: Muslims in the Military

Are American Muslims patriotic? Do they serve their country, or support America's response to the terrorist attacks? Read these stories to find out more

Islam Gains Place in U.S. Military As Ranks of Muslims Grow

Islamic Scholars Say U.S. Muslim Soldiers Must Fight for Country

Muslim soldier dies in Iraq

Muslims In Military: Arab-American proudly serves U.S.

Muslims in military say 'everybody belongs'

Muslims in the U.S. Military are As Loyal As Any, Chaplain Says

Ramadan a Sacred Time for U.S. Muslim Troops

Soldier of Faith

UK Muslims Must Obey UK Law, says Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem

Plus: American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans



Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some Quranic Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the Innocent.



homepage


Is there like some award I missed upon my joining this site about the longest post??? This is what I was referring to a bit ago hcap....incredible lol
misdirect...confuse....long long post...chart please... numbers numbers lol

[hcap]

And oh yeah...aren't you one of the ones who thinks religion is just for fools like Bush? Aren't you one of the ones who sees a religious man as a weak and ignorant man? Because that's how the far-left sees religion...and you are definitely left of center, if not far-left.

So, shouldn't you be condemning all these backward folks from these nations where 95+ percent consider religion a very important part of their lives?

Or is that condemnation only reserved for Christians living here in the USA?I have NOT condemned any religion. My fight with SMTW and boxcar is against condemnation of Islam. My point has been and is now that the believers of any religion make it what it is. At many times in historical Christianity, Christians behaved as bad if not worse than Muslim extremists.
As I said, religion is a double edged sword.

[hcap]

Is there like some award I missed upon my joining this site about the longest post??? This is what I was referring to a bit ago hcap....incredible lol
misdirect...confuse....long long post...chart please... numbers numbers lol Maybe it is the longest, but Greyfox wanted some demonstration of Muslims denouncing terrorism, and I thought all of the above would help make my point.

[boxcar]

Who gives two shits what someone says. Where are the ACTIONS? Where are these almost BILLION moderate Muslims? Where's the US Muslim MARCH ON WASHINGTON demanding these RADICALS be hunted down and arrested for their crimes?

Where are the spontaneous uprisings in Muslim nations of moderates DEMANDING justice be brought against those radicals responsible for all this death and destruction?

I saw more GENUINE social protest on election night just outside the White House perimeter by those with genuine hatred of George W. Bush (you know the ones screaming for George to get out THAT NIGHT) than I have EVER seen from the moderate Muslim community demonstrating against the radicals among them.

Oh, but HCAP's GOT A LIST! :lol:

You're a regular riot! (pun intended)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Maybe it is the longest, but Greyfox wanted some demonstration of Muslims denouncing terrorism, and I thought all of the above would help make my point.

hcap, Thank you for your posts. You did a lot of work. You're not quite getting it though.
I reviewed several of the sites. Some no longer exist, but the ones that do are condemning the terrorist attacks on America. In particular they are giving a thumbs down to 9-11. What sane individual wouldn't? Would any religious spokesperson not condemn those attacks. Would any sane religious spokesperson not condemn suicide bombings?


Your obsessive presentation of sites has not addressed Muslims denouncing:
1. the marriage of children
2. the suppression of women
3. the literal translations of the Koran and blind obedience to it
4. the punishment of perceived Infidels

[boxcar]

To a certain extent you are right. I was answering Greyfox.


I am not excusing Muslim inaction, but I am not condemning 1.66 billion for their beliefs either.

Excuse me, sir, permit me to tell you how I interpret that "inaction". I interpret it as hypocrisy coming right out of the chute. And then I interpret it as cowardly, next. And finally, I interpret it as tacit approval of terrorism (closely connected to the hypocrisy part). Therefore, until these "moderate" Muslims (so-called) actually step up to the plate to take some meaningful action against terrorists, I equally condemn them right along with the radicals.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

.

The Islamic community must move into the 21st century. .

hcap, I think we're on the same page with that idea. You see we don't have to go very far to find major problems with the cultural practices of people who are strict adherents to the faith.

Just a couple of weeks back, two young Islamic people eloped. They were put before a firing squad. There is no defending that type of punishment.
You can't have an avatar with a peace symbol and defend that punishment without losing credibility on one side or the other.

Here is their story.
It's reported at:
http://womenagainstshariah.blogspot.com/2009/04/firing-squad-executes-eloping-couple.html

"In search of a life together, Abdul Aziz and Gul Pecha fled their remote Afghan village, hoping to leave behind their ultraconservative families and the sharia law of the Taliban-controlled region.

Their marriage hadn't been arranged, and their parents didn't approve. To try to elope in the remote Khash Rod district, where women face strict rules about appearing outdoors, was a risk for Mr. Aziz, 21, and Ms. Pecha, 19.

They didn't make it. One report said their own family turned them in. They were captured by villagers and taken back to their local mosque. Quickly convicted of immoral acts, or trying to elope, they were killed by firing squad Monday in public view, just outside the mosque. The Taliban condoned the slayings.

The case, recounted by local police, began after the woman refused to marry a man to which her family had promised her, electing instead to try to elope with Mr. Aziz.

One report said the couple were from two sects of Islam, Ms. Pecha a Sunni and Mr. Aziz a Shiite.

They were headed away from their lawless region for another village, or to neighbouring Iran, police said. There were conflicting reports as to whether family, upon the couple's return, handed them over to militants, or if they were taken by force.

The honour killings come on the heels of a controversial Afghan law that would make it impossible for husbands to be charged with raping their wives. The law has sparked a firestorm of debate over the role Canada should play in a country that so severely limits women's rights. The couple was killed on the same day that Trooper Karine Blais was killed, the second female Canadian soldier to die there.

Nimroz province Governor Ghulam Dastageer Azad, in an apparent effort to douse Western outrage over the killing of the couple, condemned the attack, telling Agence France-Presse the honour killings were an "insult to Islam."

[hcap]

hcap, Thank you for your posts. You did a lot of work. You're not quite getting it though.
I reviewed several of the sites. Some no longer exist, but the ones that do are condemning the terrorist attacks on America. In particular they are giving a thumbs down to 9-11. What sane individual wouldn't? Would any religious spokesperson not condemn those attacks. Would any sane religious spokesperson not condemn suicide bombings?


Your obsessive presentation of sites has not addressed Muslims denouncing:
1. the marriage of children
2. the suppression of women
3. the literal translations of the Koran and blind obedience to it
4. the punishment of perceived InfidelsMost sites listed still exist.

I am not excusing the items listed above. Other than simply pointing out that many of the incidents that have occured do not occur among the vast majority. Many of the things we object to are a function of culture and not religion.

The literal translations of the Koran and blind obedience to it is as prevalent as the Christian fundamentalists who are the western equivalent.

Once again I reiterate, it is not the religion that is at fault, it is some of its' believers that screw things up.
In particular they are giving a thumbs down to 9-11. What sane individual wouldn't?The minority Muslims that are radicals.

[hcap]

Excuse me, sir, permit me to tell you how I interpret that "inaction". I interpret it as hypocrisy coming right out of the chute. And then I interpret it as cowardly, next. And finally, I interpret it as tacit approval of terrorism (closely connected to the hypocrisy part). Therefore, until these "moderate" Muslims (so-called) actually step up to the plate to take some meaningful action against terrorists, I equally condemn them right along with the radicals.

BoxcarWho are you condemning ? Muslim countries? Muslim political moderates? The Islamic culture? The Religion?

Fine. Condemn everyone.
My argument with you and SMTW, is about a blanket condemnation of a religion. Any religion. Condemn it's practitioners all you want.

[boxcar]

Who are you condemning ? Muslim countries? Muslim political moderates? The Islamic culture? The Religion?

Fine. Condemn everyone.
My argument with you and SMTW, is about a blanket condemnation of a religion. Any religion. Condemn it's practitioners all you want.

It should be obvious to you, but I guess it isn't. A people's religion (including the religion of human secularism) colors a people's culture and politics. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Or even better yet... "a little bit of leaven leavens the whole loaf."

Boxcar

[hcap]

It should be obvious to you, but I guess it isn't. A people's religion (including the religion of human secularism) colors a people's culture and politics. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Or even better yet... "a little bit of leaven leavens the whole loaf."

BoxcarJust like it did to the Christians who committed atrocities against the Jews and other indigenous peoples.

A bad tree eh?.....
"a little bit of leaven leavens the whole loaf." eh?

Martin Luther, initiated the Protestant Reformation. In his 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" Luther proposed to set fire to synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbade them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ.
Year

613 Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.

1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom
.
1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.

1181 French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.

1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.

1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.

1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.

1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.

1306 King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.

1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.

1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.

1370 Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.

1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.

1394 Second banishment of Jews from France.

1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.

1478 The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.

1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.

1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.

More...

Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court.

535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians."

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism.

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
bullet 612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.

613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off."

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

855: Jews were exiled from Italy

1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians.

078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)

1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.

1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.

1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians."

1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.

1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

[hcap]

Maybe you and SMTW can step up to the plate and apologize to your Jewish and indigenous people brethren for over 1000 years of Christian atrocities. Many sanctioned by the church.

I personally would feel a heck of a lot better if you apologized to me as a Jew. Boy, you guys really did a job on us.

Excuse me, sir, permit me to tell you how I interpret that "inaction". I interpret it as hypocrisy coming right out of the chute. And then I interpret it as cowardly, next. And finally, I interpret it as tacit approval of terrorism (closely connected to the hypocrisy part). Therefore, until these "moderate" Muslims (so-called) actually step up to the plate to take some meaningful action against terrorists, I equally condemn them right along with the radicals.

BoxcarYour inaction and other Christians "inaction" or failure to apologize can also be taken as "cowardly" and a "tacit approval" of those historical atrocities. Are any Native American or South American indigenous peoples on this board.? You owe them an apology as well.

[hcap]

Box, you are a Protestant. Were you aware of Luthers book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]

....The prevailing scholarly view[8] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the National Socialists displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallie
Shouldn't you also apologize for this hateful and despicable man who founded your religion? Or did he recant his anti-semitic hatred. How about apologizing for the Nazis using Luthers' work for their vile propaganda? Go ahead step up to the plate. Tacit approval just demonstrates cowardice.

Inquiring minds want to know if you will condemn all this crap just as you condemned 1.66 billion Muslims for their so-called tacit approval of the sins of their minorities.

[hcap]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the "Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther." The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen's book, Hitler's Willing Executioners, he writes:

"One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther's antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht's orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: 'On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.' The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words 'of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'"

I am waiting for your apology Box. I lost family in the Holocaust.

[Greyfox]

I am not excusing the items listed above. Other than simply pointing out that many of the incidents that have occured do not occur among the vast majority.


Once again I reiterate, it is not the religion that is at fault, it is some of its' believers that screw things up.
The minority Muslims that are radicals.

Yes, I know. Robert99 puts forth the same view. "It's not the religion it's the culture."
The fact is the religion and the culture is terribly interwoven in theocracies.
Week after week after week, we read of incidents of suppression of women, violations of children, and harsh punishment for violating the Koran (eg. see firing squad at mosque for eloping couple) that the suggestion its the "culture" wears awfully thin. The truth is large masses of supposed moderates don't stand up due to fear of reprisals.

[boxcar]

Maybe you and SMTW can step up to the plate and apologize to your Jewish and indigenous people brethren for over 1000 years of Christian atrocities. Many sanctioned by the church.

I personally would feel a heck of a lot better if you apologized to me as a Jew. Boy, you guys really did a job on us.

Your inaction and other Christians "inaction" or failure to apologize can also be taken as "cowardly" and a "tacit approval" of those historical atrocities. Are any Native American or South American indigenous peoples on this board.? You owe them an apology as well.

I wasn't around when those atrocities occurred, so I personally have nothing for which to apologize. However, I have soundly condemned what has happened in the past and even said that there is no scriptural support for such hostilities.

By the same token, as SMTW has previously pointed out, the Christ-hating Jews of Jesus' day did pronounce a curse upon their own heads! Or am I supposed to apologize for my gross misunderstanding of what that passage is plainly saying? :bang: :bang:

Boxcar
P.S. Do you also want me apologize for not having my own personal time capsule so that I could go back in time? :rolleyes:

[boxcar]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

I am waiting for your apology Box. I lost family in the Holocaust.

And I regret your loss. I truly do. But I'm in no way responsible. As far as Luther goes, the following link expresses my sentiments better than I could:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2166

Boxcar

[cj's dad]

I seem to remember that you posted about your bicycle trip to California and that you ultimately settled down in San Francisco for 1+ years. Is that correct? If so, I would assume that while living with your hippie friends that you participated in anti- Viet nam demonstrations; correct or not ?
If you did participate, which would be in line with your leftist views (to which you are certainly entitled), then I feel that you also owe an apology to the members of this board who served in VietNam. It is is quite possible and more than likely that the activities of the protestors (you) prolonged the war as it gave aid and comfort to the enemy. How many more died in that extended period of time? Your apology would be 1000x more appropriate than what you are asking others to do.

[46zilzal]

Vietnam need to be exposed for the outrageous SHAM it was: JUST LIKE Iraq.

many of my friends returned never to be the same again. What a ridiculous waste of life, over 58,000 of them including 7 from my high school graduation class.

GAVE COMFORT TO THE ENEMY?

What did ANY Vietnamese ever do to provoke the kind of carnage they suffered? NOTHING

That was forever changed my late father's idea of his government as one of his best friend's sons was killed after three months wasting his life there. An orthodontist, he came to my dad with an offer to put braces on my teeth to insure that he would not have to go through the loss of a son. I declined and got out of that ridiculousness via another legal route

[Tom]

What did ANY Vietnamese ever do to provoke the kind of carnage they suffered? NOTHING

Not sure. You could ask the N Vietnamese and the Chinese, who were the ones who perpetrated the horrors on the South. Long before we went there.
I think the war was wrong too, but get your facts straight - we were not the bad guys there.

[cj's dad]

Vietnam need to be exposed for the outrageous SHAM it was: JUST LIKE Iraq.

many of my friends returned never to be the same again. What a ridiculous waste of life, over 58,000 of them including 7 from my high school graduation class.

GAVE COMFORT TO THE ENEMY?

What did ANY Vietnamese ever do to provoke the kind of carnage they suffered? NOTHING

That was forever changed my late father's idea of his government as one of his best friend's sons was killed after three months wasting his life there. An orthodontist, he came to my dad with an offer to put braces on my teeth to insure that he would not have to go through the loss of a son. I declined and got out of that ridiculousness via another legal route

Makes you proud to be an American eh !!

[46zilzal]

Makes you proud to be an American eh !!
Yes: given the lies of what the whole thing was about, I CHOSE to not be part of a lie which exchanged a bunch of poor inner city young men's lives for $$$$$$$$ for Bell Helicopter and others.

When I went to the draft physical I laughed out loud. They took my blood pressure in 4 seconds. One guy couldn't urinate so they poured some from another person's cup into his and tested it as accurate for the two of them.

"Be the first one on your block to have your son come home in a box" still rings as true today as it did then.

Interview With the President, Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, September 2, 1963
This transcript of Walter Cronkite's interview with President Kennedy includes Kennedy's statement that "In the final analysis, it is their war. We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisors, but they have to win it..."

The Rah Rah War boys got to him

[Tom]

Sounds like a preview of the Obama Health Care Plan! :lol:

[hcap]

By the same token, as SMTW has previously pointed out, the Christ-hating Jews of Jesus' day did pronounce a curse upon their own heads! Or am I supposed to apologize for my gross misunderstanding of what that passage is plainly sayingAnd I regret your loss. I truly do. But I'm in no way responsible. As far as Luther goes, the following link expresses my sentiments better than I could:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2166

Boxcar

And I am in no way responsible for the death of Jesus.

All Jews that ever existed are not responsible for the death of Jesus. No matter what is claimed in the NT, a scripture that is not accepted by Jews along with the notion that Jesus was the "moshiach". The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in traditional Jewish thought. Anything you say about the Jewish elders giving Jesus up to the Romans is unsupportable Christian dogma.

Now what about your fallacious bad trees produce bad fruit construct?
What about all them bad apples that fell off the tree of Christianity?

[hcap]

I seem to remember that you posted about your bicycle trip to California and that you ultimately settled down in San Francisco for 1+ years. Is that correct? If so, I would assume that while living with your hippie friends that you participated in anti- Viet nam demonstrations; correct or not ?
If you did participate, which would be in line with your leftist views (to which you are certainly entitled), then I feel that you also owe an apology to the members of this board who served in VietNam. It is is quite possible and more than likely that the activities of the protestors (you) prolonged the war as it gave aid and comfort to the enemy. How many more died in that extended period of time? Your apology would be 1000x more appropriate than what you are asking others to do.
This is not worth a response.

[Show Me the Wire]

And I am in no way responsible for the death of Jesus.

All Jews that ever existed are not responsible for the death of Jesus. No matter what is claimed in the NT, a scripture that is not accepted by Jews along with the notion that Jesus was the "moshiach". The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in traditional Jewish thought. Anything you say about the Jewish elders giving Jesus up to the Romans is unsupportable Christian dogma.

Now what about your fallacious bad trees produce bad fruit construct?
What about all them bad apples that fell off the tree of Christianity?

You are correct, not all Jews. That point is expressly implied. The religious leaders intentionally left out the faction sympathetic to the followers of Rabbi Jesus. These plotters stacked the mob with their confederates. A specific group of Jews, not all Jews, called down a curse upon themselves and their issue.

Of course a current Rabbinic practicing Jew does not accept Jesus, as these Jews are still waiting for the Anointed One. BTW that was the point of Peter's speech on the Pentecost. He told the Jews there is no salvation in any other name than Christ, so stop waiting. According to mainline Christianity, as you like to imply, it does not mean Jews are not eligible for salvation. Peter's speech, in context, was to Jews and meant to educate them that the prophecy has been fulfilled and that no other Messiah will be sent.

My, my you enjoy twisting concepts don't you?

[Tom]

hcap, the whole reason for "Jesus" was that he die.
Those who killed him fulfilled his wishes.

[boxcar]

And I am in no way responsible for the death of Jesus.


Correct. But your forefathers are.



As usual, you have it all backwards. The sacrifice of Christ is solidly grounded in OT Judaism. For starters, read the Book of Hebrews and educate yourself. All the OT rituals and sacrifices, etc. were types of Christ. Christ himself is the antitype -- that is to say, he is the fulfillment of all the OT types that predicted him.


[quote]Anything you say about the Jewish elders giving Jesus up to the Romans is unsupportable Christian dogma.

It's biblical dogma. Besides, why do you care so much? You just said earlier that you are in no way responsible for Christ's death? You have already distanced yourself. But why couldn't your ancestors be guilty of his blood?

Now what about your fallacious bad trees produce bad fruit construct?
What about all them bad apples that fell off the tree of Christianity?

The bible clearly prescribes for the church a discipline process that is designed to keep the bad apples out. By the same token, the bible also prophesied that the church would largely become apostate -- mainly because she would not follow the process mandated in scripture. The opening chapters of the Book of Revelation describes seven types of churches, and the picture isn't pretty for most of them.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I have NOT condemned any religion.I never said you did. What I did say was that as a typical left-of-center person, I would expect you to ridicule and decry any nation where 95%+ of their population considers religion to be a very serious matter in their lives. The far-left's MO isn't to condemn religion...it's to ridicule those who practice it regularly and have the audacity to wear their faith on their sleeve.

You know, kind of like the deep south...Bush country....that place you hold in such HIGH regard here in the US....:lol: Religion is very important to them as well, and they are routinely ridiculed for that by the far-left wing of the Democratic party.

But I betcha dollars to donuts nobody on the far-left dares to criticize any of these Muslim nations where religion is the number-one priority in their daily lives. Just like you haven't....

[PaceAdvantage]

Just like it did to the Christians who committed atrocities against the Jews and other indigenous peoples.

A bad tree eh?.....
"a little bit of leaven leavens the whole loaf." eh?


Year

613 Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.

1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom
.
1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.

1181 French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.

1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.

1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.

1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.

1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.

1306 King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.

1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.

1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.

1370 Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.

1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.

1394 Second banishment of Jews from France.

1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.

1478 The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.

1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.

1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.

More...

Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court.

535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians."

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism.

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
bullet 612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.

613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off."

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

855: Jews were exiled from Italy

1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians.

078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)

1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.

1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.

1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians."

1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.

1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.Why do you insist on copying virtually ENTIRE pages of websites here, without so much as pasting a linkback? Why not save yourself time in the future and simply put the link up....there is no need to actually reinvent the wheel when everything is already at some other site....here, I did it for you:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm

[hcap]

Blame placed on the Jews resulted in 1000 years of Christian on Jewish atrocities. And extreme Anti-Semitism and hatred.

1-Whether or not it was a proper interpretation of Christian doctrine demonstrates:

a) if it was not, the religion itself was not at fault. Its believers were. Just my point with Islam.

b) if it was, Christianity was a evil tree and bore bad fruit. Boxcars very point about Islam.


QED.

quod erat demonstrandum

[Tom]

psssst, hcap, 2009 wants you join him.

[boxcar]

And, 'cap, what about the untold millions of believers (both in the OT and NT throughout all these many centuries) who were persecuted and martyred for their faith -- and still are even to this day!?

Boxcar


Blame placed on the Jews resulted in 1000 years of Christian on Jewish atrocities. And extreme Anti-Semitism and hatred.

1-Whether or not it was a proper interpretation of Christian doctrine demonstrates:

a) if it was not, the religion itself was not at fault. Its believers were. Just my point with Islam.

b) if it was, Christianity was a evil tree and bore bad fruit. Boxcars very point about Islam.


QED.

quod erat demonstrandum

[Show Me the Wire]

1-Whether or not it was a proper interpretation of Christian doctrine demonstrates:

a) if it was not, the religion itself was not at fault. Its believers were. Just my point with Islam.

b) if it was, Christianity was a evil tree and bore bad fruit. Boxcars very point about Islam.

hcap how can you come to such a limited conclusion. There is evil and unrighteousness in the world. Educate yourself about the specifics regarding the belief system you mock. Ever read or hear about the parable of the sower of good wheat and his enemy came at night and sowed weeds among the wheat?

Christianity is not at fault and Christianity is not an evil tree that bore bad fruit. The enemy of GOD sowed bad seed (unrighteous people) among the good seed (righteous people).

How can a religion based on the ideals of loving GOD and loving your neighbor be faulty? People are faulty and people twist concepts, like you do, to fit their twisted agendas or to justify their evil deeds.

Really read the Lord's prayer (Our Father) and you tell me what fault you can find with the prayer. This prayer is the basic ideals of Christianity. It is prayer of praise, a prayer of blessings, a prayer of forgiveness, a prayer for mercy, and a prayer for protection.

[Show Me the Wire]

What makes your accustions even more vile about Christianity itself is Christ's own words toward the Jews while he died an excruciating death. Christ found time to ask his Father to forgive the Jews, because they did not know what they were doing.

With those words issuing from his lips how can you make ridiculous assertions that Christianity or its believers are at fault or Christianity is an evil tree that bore bad fruit.

To clarify for you. Anyone that preaches that Jews should be persecuted for Christ's death is not a believer.

You owe all mainline Christians an apology. I stepped-up and apologized for my editing error, that unintentionally cast Jewish people in the wrong light. I expect you to apologize for you ignorance about the topic, which inspired your faulty premises.

[Greyfox]

Blame placed on the Jews resulted in 1000 years of Christian on Jewish atrocities. And extreme Anti-Semitism and hatred.

1-Whether or not it was a proper interpretation of Christian doctrine demonstrates:

a) if it was not, the religion itself was not at fault. Its believers were. Just my point with Islam.

b) if it was, Christianity was a evil tree and bore bad fruit. Boxcars very point about Islam.


QED.

quod erat demonstrandum


In contrast to what these other fellows are saying, I find nothing faulty with the above logic. The problem that I'm having with it though is it based on the assumption that the atrocities were always Christian on to Jew.
That latter conclusion is one that I have a hard time swallowing.
In most conflicts, it takes two hands to clap.

[lsbets]

SMTW - I think you misread Hcap's comment, at least as far as I understood it. It appeared to me that he was using Boxcar's position that the bad deeds done by Christians in the past were not sanctioned by the religion but were done by bad people as a back up for his feelings towards radical Islam - its not the religion, its a misinterpretation of the religion. Then he offered a second choice - that the religion itself is bad, to illustrate how he feels Boxcar's views about Islam are wrong. I did not take Hcap's remarks in any way as calling Christianity evil.

[Show Me the Wire]

I respectfully disagree. Hcap could have easily stated that some people misrepresented the religious doctrine, which I agree happened. But no, hcap lumped in all believers.

My point of contention is he said believers. Who is a believer? The cleric that says Islam prohibits wife beating or the cleric that says it is a man's holy duty to beat his wife?

Relating the point to Islam, most reasonable people would agree, the cleric that teaches wife beating is prohibited is teaching the true belief.

The same logic does not apply to mainline traditional Christianity.

The real problem is defining what is Islam. Islam has no official oversight of its teachings. Any cleric can interpret the Koran, unlike mainline Christianity. Mainline Christianity has structured hierarchies regarding the teaching of dogma.


I stand by my call for an apology or at the least a statement from hcap acknowledging that only some people misrepresented the official teachings of traditional mainline Christianity.

[hcap]

In contrast to what these other fellows are saying, I find nothing faulty with the above logic. The problem that I'm having with it though is it based on the assumption that the atrocities were always Christian on to Jew.
That latter conclusion is one that I have a hard time swallowing.
In most conflicts, it takes two hands to clap.Sorry. Not here. There were also many many cases of Christians treating native and indigenous peoples in definitely un-Christian ways.

Thanks, there is nothing faulty with my logic.
And let me repeat the following points...

I have nothing but respect and admiration for Christianity.
I believe No major religion is evil. The boxcarian theory of the evil tree that bore evil fruit is just that a "boxcarian" theory. But to be applied honestly, it must be applied to ones' own religion as well others.

I recognize the fault is not in our stars but in our own limited psyche and inability to act as we preach.

[hcap]

SMTW - I think you misread Hcap's comment, at least as far as I understood it. It appeared to me that he was using Boxcar's position that the bad deeds done by Christians in the past were not sanctioned by the religion but were done by bad people as a back up for his feelings towards radical Islam - its not the religion, its a misinterpretation of the religion. Then he offered a second choice - that the religion itself is bad, to illustrate how he feels Boxcar's views about Islam are wrong. I did not take Hcap's remarks in any way as calling Christianity evil.
Thank you.

[hcap]

Both SMTW and boxcar are simply being dishonest.

My simple logical test deflates boxcars' contention of evil tree/evil fruit-unless he is willing himself to declare Christianity evil.

The parallels between Christianity's past and radical Islam today are evident.
The sordid history of Christianity is similar to horrific acts of the radical fringe of Islam. Christianity at times officially sanctioned bad acts and actors. Just like Martin Luther did in his book "On the Jews and Their Lies"
In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ...
That was then this is now. Christians have grown up. Christianity today is not the problem. Radical Islam is.

But knee-jerking counter-productive Islam-a-phobia is only a hindrence to dealing with that problem.

[Greyfox]

Christianity today is not the problem. Radical Islam is.

.

You and I agree that Radical Islam is a problem, especially with respect to terrorism and violence.

Where we seem to disagree is on the supposed Islam moderates who support:

"Women who appear on streets and in public without the Islamic Hejab shall be condemned to 74 strokes of the lash."

Article 209 of the Iranian constitution values a woman's life as 1/2 of a mans.

Men and women do not have equal inheritance rights.

Female children can be married to men.

The prophet Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. (Scholars are convinced that he had intercourse with her prior to her first menses.)

Capital punishment for homosexuality and adultery.

[hcap]

Islam varies in its approach towards women. Indonesia the largest Muslim country in the world has a cultural history very different the the ME. The prevalence of mistreatment of women is not the same as in the ME

Much of what you describe for instance in Iran is despicable. Yet although the Mullahs control much of Iran, there is a strong disagreement in among the majority of the young compared to that preached by the Mullahs. Culture plays a great a part in the practice of religion as does politics.

The list of atrocities committed by Christians against Jews and indigenous peoples occurred in different cultural times. The list is much more gruesome than the issues and acts toward woman that you have brought up. What changed? How does a now egalitarian Christian society grow out of a backward bigoted one that allowed such atrocities to have ever occurred in the first place?.

It is much more complicated than evil tree/evil fruit boxcarian construct.
Culture, history and politics have to be considered.

[Greyfox]

Islam varies in its approach towards women. Indonesia the largest Muslim country in the world has a cultural history very different the the ME. The prevalence of mistreatment of women is not the same as in the ME

Much of what you describe for instance in Iran is despicable. Yet although the Mullahs control much of Iran, there is a strong disagreement in among the majority of the young compared to that preached by the Mullahs. Culture plays a great a part in the practice of religion as does politics.

The list of atrocities committed by Christians against Jews and indigenous peoples occurred in different cultural times. The list is much more gruesome than the issues and acts toward woman that you have brought up. What changed? How does a now egalitarian Christian society grow out of a backward bigoted one that allowed such atrocities to have ever occurred in the first place?.

It is much more complicated than evil tree/evil fruit boxcarian construct.
Culture, history and politics have to be considered.

Thank you for your response Hcap.
As this thread is about The Reality of Islam, I was basically interested in your views in the italicized version above. I believe we agree.

With respect to the rest of the thread, I don't know that anyone on this board is capable of answering for certain how Christian society grew out of a bigoted one. The fact is that it did. Julian Jaynes who wrote
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind might have some suggestions in that department. It may well be that there's an optimal balance of fear vs. love that stimulates that growth of reason and consciousness. If the fear is too great, human creativity is stifled. But I don't want to go to far into the speculation department.


Sorry to hear about your family's tragedy in the holocaust. Surely though, the ones you are talking about were killed before you were born. Bon Sante.

[Show Me the Wire]

Both SMTW and boxcar are simply being dishonest.

My simple logical test deflates boxcars' contention of evil tree/evil fruit-unless he is willing himself to declare Christianity evil.

The parallels between Christianity's past and radical Islam today are evident.
The sordid history of Christianity is similar to horrific acts of the radical fringe of Islam. Christianity at times officially sanctioned bad acts and actors. Just like Martin Luther did in his book "On the Jews and Their Lies"
That was then this is now. Christians have grown up. Christianity today is not the problem. Radical Islam is.

But knee-jerking counter-productive Islam-a-phobia is only a hindrence to dealing with that problem.


You are being dishonest. You fail to mention Martin Luther was excommunicated from the first traditional Christian church. Christianity never officially or unofficially sanctioned bad actions as you say.

You continue to misrepresent history to further your hate speech against Christianity.

I am not sure all people that call themselves Chrisitians have matured as you say because they preach hate. So according to your standard is Christianity a problem again?


I adopt and adapt your mantra. I had nothing to do with past persecutions and not all Christians that ever lived were responible for past persecutions.

Be a straight forward human being and just clarify that some people misrepresented the faith for their own personal gain.

[boxcar]

Both SMTW and boxcar are simply being dishonest.

My simple logical test deflates boxcars' contention of evil tree/evil fruit-unless he is willing himself to declare Christianity evil.

You're confusing man-made church doctrine for biblical doctrine. The bible doesn't sanction any of the atrocities of the past. But the same cannot be said about the Koran!

As SMTW pointed out already, go back and read the parable of the Sower of Seed. Also, read Christ's words in Mat 7:15ff. He's talking there about PROFESSING CHRISTIANS. He's talking about very self-deceived people who on the last day will be condemned. He actually predicted that the church will largely become APOSTATE -- just like God's Old Covenant people in the OT were! Israel was a thoroughly apostate "theocratic" nation -- only a remnant honored God's covenant with them. Only a remnant were faithful and didn't break his covenant. And sadly, so it is with God's New Covenant people, i.e. his church -- the "nation" to whom he gave the kingdom when he took it away from covenant-breaking, Christ-rejecting Israel.

So, no...BIBLICAL Christianity isn't evil. Churches or denominations within Christendom, though, can be very evil. And I know who the main culprits are, but I'm not going to start a denominations war here. Church History speaks for itself.

But knee-jerking counter-productive Islam-a-phobia is only a hindrence to dealing with that problem.

I wonder if the Jews shared your sentiments when they were being persecuted! I wonder if they had any "Christ-a-phobias" during those dark periods of history? I wonder if any of their "knee-jerking" reactions were justified?

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

Boxcar hit it out of the park about hcap's deceit, with a better explanation of my thoughts.

I didn’t misunderstand hcap’s posts, I just did not explain my objection clearly.

Hcap, criticizes the New Testament as encouraging hate, as his major and first dispersion against Christianity. To fit his agenda of unwarranted criticism of scripture, he intentionally takes the text out of context and falsely states this is why Christianity is not righteous. After being corrected several times on the real undisputed meaning of the text, he switches gears to man made beliefs, (in words that hcap understands- imperfect knowledge) to bolster his right to spread hate speech against Christians.

This may be a nuance, but it is a nuance that should not be left unchallenged.

Unlike your misguided charachteraztion, The New Testament is not hate filled, nor called for the persecution of anyone

Hcap apologize or at the least correct your statements to say men through their imperfect knowledge misrepresented the faith to justify actions for personal gain and The New Testament is righteous in its writings.

.

[46zilzal]

All of this malarkey is just another expression of "My daddy can beat up your daddy."

Religious fervor: WHAT A SUPREME WASTE OF BREATH!!

[Show Me the Wire]

Zillly, the issue completely escapes you.

It is about hcap's persistent hate speech and inflammatory vitriol against a specific group based on their belief in The New Testament. It is about his misrepresentations made against me, just because I choose to have a different belief system than hcap. It is about his hypocrisy.

Now do you understand or are you going to post another irrelevant thought in response.

[46zilzal]

WASTE OF BREATH squared

Rah Rah GOD...My interpretation of th5s mythical deity is better that yours

[Show Me the Wire]

Now do you understand or are you going to post another irrelevant thought in response.

I wish Obama's administration was as transparent as you. Unfortunately, they are just as clueless as you.

[Tom]

Hey, Zilly, if you do not believe, great for you, but that means you have nothing to offer the discussion, so why keep butting in?

Your derogatory remark about God are offensive to many here are not heathens like you are.

[46zilzal]

Hey, Zilly, if you do not believe, great for you, but that means you have nothing to offer the discussion, so why keep butting in?

Your derogatory remark about God are offensive to many here are not heathens like you are.
Derogatory? how and one be negative about NOTHING?

[boxcar]

Derogatory? how and one be negative about NOTHING?

How? By posting this about "NOTHING"

WASTE OF BREATH squared

Rah Rah GOD...My interpretation of th5s mythical deity is better that yours

Why did you waste bandwith mocking "nothing" and, therefore, contributing NOTHING to the discussion? How long have you been in the habit of chasing the wind? Or for that matter, spitting into it!? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

pointing out the irrationality of myth is stating a lot

[PaceAdvantage]

pointing out the irrationality of myth is stating a lotHe did this in the horse section, which is what got him kicked off in the first place...people think he was kicked off because of off-topic...not true...

[Bubba X]

Hey, Zilly, if you do not believe, great for you, but that means you have nothing to offer the discussion, so why keep butting in?

Your derogatory remark about God are offensive to many here are not heathens like you are.

I always knew you were really Aunt Esther.

[rastajenk]

pointing out the irrationality of myth is stating a lot Is all myth irrational, or just Christian myth? You seem to like to reference Buddhists and other eastern mysticisms; are they without myths? Someone like Joseph Campbell would have said, definitely not.

[boxcar]

He did this in the horse section, which is what got him kicked off in the first place...people think he was kicked off because of off-topic...not true...

Wow! Live and learn. I wasn't aware of that. Geesh...Zilly gets the boot because he offended someone or some people over there. I left voluntary because it seemed as some took offense at what I was espousing over there. But here's what's really a riot: Zilly and I actually have quite a bit in common when it comes to the ponies -- at least in terms of what's important and what isn't. Go figure! Who would have ever thunk it? :D

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Is all myth irrational, or just Christian myth? You seem to like to reference Buddhists and other eastern mysticisms; are they without myths? Someone like Joseph Campbell would have said, definitely not.
Religion is nothing more than a life's philosophy. Find what is best from an eclectic look at all of those germane to your core beliefs, sans a prostrate position grovelling to some mythical deity, and go on with your life as an individual. Organized religion is a bunch of fear mongering and regimentation to rigid thinking no matter the sect.

[hcap]

Thank you for your response Hcap.
As this thread is about The Reality of Islam, I was basically interested in your views in the italicized version above. I believe we agree.

With respect to the rest of the thread, I don't know that anyone on this board is capable of answering for certain how Christian society grew out of a bigoted one. The fact is that it did. Julian Jaynes who wrote
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind might have some suggestions in that department. It may well be that there's an optimal balance of fear vs. love that stimulates that growth of reason and consciousness. If the fear is too great, human creativity is stifled. But I don't want to go to far into the speculation department.


Sorry to hear about your family's tragedy in the holocaust. Surely though, the ones you are talking about were killed before you were born. Bon Sante.The advent of modernity in the west had much to do with.
The Renascence, the Enlightenment, Industrial revolution, open mass media and instant communications would do the same for Islam as a whole. Again Indonesia, the largest Muslim country has had more of this than the Mid East Muslims. A Taliban like party there were just sorely defeated in democratic elections.

I was born in '46. They were lost in Nazi occupied Czechoslovakia in the early 40s'. Shipped tout to concentration camps. My father-in-law lost his entire family.

[boxcar]

pointing out the irrationality of myth is stating a lot

No, what you really mean to say is that mocking religious people's beliefs is "stating a lot" to your mind.

Boxcar

[Tom]

I deny the existence of 46.

[boxcar]

I deny the existence of 46.

You mean he's only a myth? That's harsh, Tom. Very harsh. :lol:

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

The advent of modernity in the west had much to do with.
.

We agree again. But that "modernity" just didn't fall from the sky. It was developed by a culture that fostered new ideas.

[hcap]

We agree again. But that "modernity" just didn't fall from the sky. It was developed by a culture that fostered new ideas.We might be able to trace the fledgling start to the Renaissance. And the Humanists of that era.
The humanists emphasized the importance of human values instead of religious Renaissance humanists were often devout Christians, but their promotion of secular, or non-religious, values often put them at odds with the church. Also Johann Gutenberg. Movable type had a tremendous effect on showing the emerging world ideas that were reserved for the few.

[hcap]

You are being dishonest. You fail to mention Martin Luther was excommunicated from the first traditional Christian church..


Luther was "excommunicated" from the Catholic Church and his awful screed about the vileness of the Jews was not among the reasons for his excommunication.....Your lies 1 and 2


From Wiki
On June 15, 1520, the Pope warned Luther with the papal bull (edict) Exsurge Domine that he risked excommunication unless he recanted 41 sentences drawn from his writings, including the 95 Theses, within 60 days.

The Lutheran Church did not apologize until recently as posted by boxcar.
You continue to misrepresent history to further your hate speech against Christianity
I have not " misrepresented history to further your hate speech against Christianity."Not only did the founder of the Protestant movement endorse hatred towards the Jews but official doctrines and proclamations of earlier roman Catholic bigwigs did as well.

Year.

1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.

1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

.................................................. ...

So that is lie number 3.



You and your mentor boxcar are dead in this water in this debate. Give it up

[Tom]

The MacDonald brothers started it, but Ray Kroc made it famous. :p:kiss:

[hcap]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes clear exactly what I pointed out earlier. We are all responsible for the death of Christ.
Jesus himself . . . and Peter in following suit, both accept ‘the ignorance’ of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places[.] . . . [T]he Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone (nos. 597-98).
Excuse me, sir, permit me to tell you how I interpret that "inaction". I interpret it as hypocrisy coming right out of the chute. And then I interpret it as cowardly, next. And finally, I interpret it as tacit approval of terrorism (closely connected to the hypocrisy part). Therefore, until these "moderate" Muslims (so-called) actually step up to the plate to take some meaningful action against terrorists, I equally condemn them right along with the radicals.Your inaction and other Christians "inaction" or failure to apologize can also be taken as "cowardly" and a "tacit approval" of those historical atrocities. Are any Native American or South American indigenous peoples on this board.? You owe them an apology as well.As for stepping up to the plate, well...
As noted by the historians Rubenstein and Roth: "Of all the churches of Europe during the period 1933-45, none was as silent or as indifferent to the known fate of the Jews, when it did not actively support National Socialist antisemitic politics, as was the German Lutheran Church."
Hey box, that same Lutheran Church founded by Martin Luther, that same church which did not issue an apology for Luthers' extremely bigoted published rant on how evil we Jews are until hunfreds of years later, that same church did NOT STEP UP TO THE PLATE to condemn the holocaust. As you might say rather pompously, ("Methinks") the fruit of Christianity, the same fruit spawned by Luther-his church-must be evil for not condemning the fate of the Jews. They were all aware of the ongoing events. Shouldn't they have loudly objected. Or is the Lutheran church evil? And therefore Christianity itself?

Now for the Roman Catholics and the holocaust....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

A rather flacid stepping up to the plate. SMTW????


Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust

Pope Pius XII's (1876-1958) actions during the Holocaust remain controversial. For much of the war, he maintained a public front of indifference and remained silent while German atrocities were committed. He refused pleas for help on the grounds of neutrality, while making statements condemning injustices in general. Privately, he sheltered a small number of Jews and spoke to a few select officials, encouraging them to help the Jews.

Cries for Help

Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)

Within the Pope's own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)

In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)

In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to "bear adversity with serene patience."(8)

...As soon as he was appointed Pope, Pacelli did speak out against the 1938 Italian racial laws that dealt with mixed marriages and children of mixed marriages.(3) However, he issued no such condemnation of Kristallnacht (the night of broken glass) which occurred in November 1938, and which recent evidence shows he was informed of by Berlin's papal nuncio. As the security of the Jewish population became more precarious, Pius XII did intervene the month he was elected Pope, March 1939, and obtained 3,000 visas to enter Brazil for European Jews who had been baptized and converted to Catholicism. Two-thirds of these were later revoked, however, because of "improper conduct," probably meaning that the Jews started practicing Judaism once in Brazil. At that time, the Pope did nothing to save practicing Jews.

So when it was most needed, the Pope representing the Catholic Church was lacking anything that might have made a difference. Ah, another example of not stepping up to the plate. The Vatican is in Rome. Italy is a Christian nation. And then an ally of Nazi Germany.

You gentlemen continue to advance the SMTW/boxcarian School of Religious Pomposity and Sacred and Profane Historical Redboarding. .

It is not the religion, or its own brand of "My God can kick your Gods ass" that is at fault, it is the failure of human believers and practitioners.

[cj's dad]

Move into this century - your reliance on past practices is really trite and overbearing at the same time.

Robert- the BCC is a fine place with many wonderful members - please try to get your facts straight.

H'cap- the year is 2009 - move out of the 19th century - take a deep breath and smell the flowers. try to relax, you are letting your anti - Christian bigotry come to light.

[toetoe]

try to relax, you are letting your anti - Christian bigotry come to light.

Come to Light, eh ? ;) .

[cj's dad]

Come to Light, eh ? ;) .

Must have been a Freudian slip !!

[boxcar]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes clear exactly what I pointed out earlier. We are all responsible for the death of Christ.

Quote:
Jesus himself . . . and Peter in following suit, both accept ‘the ignorance’ of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places[.] . . . [T]he Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone (nos. 597-98).

I love the way you cherry-pick whatever it is that tickles your ears at the moment. :rolleyes:

I take it, then, that you're also okay with the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity, since he was the federal head of the human race?

But I categorically reject this church doctrine; for it has no biblical ground. The whole entire world did not crucify Christ. However, it could reasonably be said that the world as represented by Jews and Gentiles at that time (the only two entities to a Jew's mind, i.e. "us" the chosen ones and "them" who were passed over). This would be analogous to saying that Jesus' mother murdered her Son, too! Or that his true disciples drove the nails in also. To be sure, Christ sacrificed himself for the sins of HIS PEOPLE, but that doesn't mean all his people were responsible for his death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Excuse me, sir, permit me to tell you how I interpret that "inaction". I interpret it as hypocrisy coming right out of the chute. And then I interpret it as cowardly, next. And finally, I interpret it as tacit approval of terrorism (closely connected to the hypocrisy part). Therefore, until these "moderate" Muslims (so-called) actually step up to the plate to take some meaningful action against terrorists, I equally condemn them right along with the radicals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
Your inaction and other Christians "inaction" or failure to apologize can also be taken as "cowardly" and a "tacit approval" of those historical atrocities. Are any Native American or South American indigenous peoples on this board.? You owe them an apology as well.

Such utter sophistry! (And it is sophistry in your case!) When I talked about the inaction of all Muslims who are contemporary with the terrorists, I wasn't talking about mere "apologies". I was talking about the lack of outright condemnation and any proactive counter measures against their radical contemporaries. My generation isn't exactly contemporary with Jesus' generation, is it!? :bang:

As for stepping up to the plate, well...
Quote:
As noted by the historians Rubenstein and Roth: "Of all the churches of Europe during the period 1933-45, none was as silent or as indifferent to the known fate of the Jews, when it did not actively support National Socialist antisemitic politics, as was the German Lutheran Church."

Hey box, that same Lutheran Church founded by Martin Luther, that same church which did not issue an apology for Luthers' extremely bigoted published rant on how evil we Jews are until hunfreds of years later, that same church did NOT STEP UP TO THE PLATE to condemn the holocaust. As you might say rather pompously, ("Methinks") the fruit of Christianity, the same fruit spawned by Luther-his church-must be evil for not condemning the fate of the Jews. They were all aware of the ongoing events. Shouldn't they have loudly objected. Or is the Lutheran church evil? And therefore Christianity itself?

Sounds like you have a personal problem with the Catholic and Lutheran Churches. The bible certainly didn't sanction the wicked actions of those churches. So condemn them until the cows come home if it makes you feel better, but logically you can't condemn all Christianity because not all Christians believed as those heretics and apostates did, nor did they participate in their sinful acts. You might as well say that all Christians are guilty of the sin and crime of pedophilia because a small percentage of clergy committed those wicked acts over the centuries! I suppose the sins of the few are imputed to the many? :bang:

Now...a segment of the Lutheran Church -- even a large segment of it -- has unquestionably produced "bad fruit" -- but that doesn't mean all Christ's church is filled with rotten apples! Since when did the Lutherans come to represent the sum of the whole!? :bang: They are but one denomination -- as is the Catholic Church. Not all Christianity, therefore, is evil. However, where Islam markedly differs from biblical Christianity is that the Koran sanctions an awful lot of sin, especially against unbelievers. The bible does not! The only way you could logically condemn all Christianity is if you could find in the the bible, which is the authoritative rule of living for Christians, the passages that enjoined believers to persecute unbelievers (Jews, for example). Yes, the Lutherans and Catholics have their books, their catechisms, their doctrinal statements, their Creeds, etc., and these can become authoritative rules for Christians, but only when these writings are found to be consistent with the teachings of the holy, inspired and infallible scriptures.

Boxcar

[hcap]

Such utter sophistry! (And it is sophistry in your case!) When I talked about the inaction of all Muslims who are contemporary with the terrorists, I wasn't talking about mere "apologies". I was talking about the lack of outright condemnation and any proactive counter measures against their radical contemporaries. My generation isn't exactly contemporary with Jesus' generation, is it!?It is really very simple.

1-Your main contention along with SMTW, is what you have coined in boxcarian proclamatory verbosity- "an evil religion is known by the evil fruit it produces." A rather simplistic logical fallacy. To wit. Pun intended.

"All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates." - Woody Allen

a) I have shown conclusively that throughout history, including recently, during Nazi Germany, atrocities were committed by Christians against Jews (and indigenous peoples of the world).

b) During those atrocities-CONTEMPORARY with those atrocities-happening at the very same time as those atrocities-there was no condemnation or more importantly, any official Church step taken to stop or prevent those brutal acts.

c)Therefore the Christian Church, whether Catholic or Protestant is guilty of the same evil religion/evil fruit faulty nonsense you accuse today's moderate Muslims of thru' inaction.

d) Only difference of course is the magnitude of brutal acts, atrocities, and inaction. Christian history is much worse.

.................................................. ..................................

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes clear exactly what I pointed out earlier. We are all responsible for the death of Christ.
Jesus himself . . . and Peter in following suit, both accept ‘the ignorance’ of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places[.] . . . [T]he Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone (nos. 597-98).
I love the way you cherry-pick whatever it is that tickles your ears at the moment.

I take it, then, that you're also okay with the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity, since he was the federal head of the human race?

But I categorically reject this church doctrine; for it has no biblical ground. The whole entire world did not crucify Christ





2-You said previously my forefathers are responsible for the death of Christ.

a)the quote above is mainstream Roman Catholic commentary. I did not make it up or cherry pick.

b)If you reject it, take it up with SMTW. He is Catholic. His Church also threw out Martin Luther (excommunicated) for heresy. The founder of the Protestant movement. Of course you reject it. Your Protestant

c)Therefore as a Jew, I reject your dogmatic views assigning responsibility to the Jews.

d) The "the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity" is also rejected on the same grounds.

e) the only difference between me not accepting "the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity", and "The Jews killed Christ" and all of your dogmatic points, is that your views set the stage for the dissemination and encouragement of anti-Semitism throughout history. A byproduct of Christians like you shifting the blame to find a group of scapegoats simply to avoid confronting the timber in your thine own eye.

[boxcar]

It is really very simple.

1-Your main contention along with SMTW, is what you have coined in boxcarian proclamatory verbosity- "an evil religion is known by the evil fruit it produces." A rather simplistic logical fallacy. To wit. Pun intended.

"All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates." - Woody Allen

a) I have shown conclusively that throughout history, including recently, during Nazi Germany, atrocities were committed by Christians against Jews (and indigenous peoples of the world).

b) During those atrocities-CONTEMPORARY with those atrocities-happening at the very same time as those atrocities-there was no condemnation or more importantly, any official Church step taken to stop or prevent those brutal acts.

c)Therefore the Christian Church, whether Catholic or Protestant is guilty of the same evil religion/evil fruit faulty nonsense you accuse today's moderate Muslims of thru' inaction.

d) Only difference of course is the magnitude of brutal acts, atrocities, and inaction. Christian history is much worse.

.................................................. ..................................






2-You said previously my forefathers are responsible for the death of Christ.

a)the quote above is mainstream Roman Catholic commentary. I did not make it up or cherry pick.

b)If you reject it, take it up with SMTW. He is Catholic. His Church also threw out Martin Luther (excommunicated) for heresy. The founder of the Protestant movement. Of course you reject it. Your Protestant

c)Therefore as a Jew, I reject your dogmatic views assigning responsibility to the Jews.

d) The "the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity" is also rejected on the same grounds.

e) the only difference between me not accepting "the bibilical doctrine of Imputation of Adam's original sin to all his posterity", and "The Jews killed Christ" and all of your dogmatic points, is that your views set the stage for the dissemination and encouragement of anti-Semitism throughout history. A byproduct of Christians like you shifting the blame to find a group of scapegoats simply to avoid confronting the timber in your thine own eye.

Hcap, you have continually tried to make the moral equivalency between the largely apostate Christian church and Islam. The parallel breaks down on two levels: First, Islam worships a false god, it's Koran isn't inspired and its Koran actually encourages and promotes and even mandates the killing of infidels. In short, Islam is a religion spawned from the pit of hell. Who the self-deceived Muslims truly worship is their spiritual father -- the devil. As such, I can say that there is no recourse for any unrepentant Muslim. I can say from a biblical perspective that the Islamic religion can only bear bad fruit because the tree itself is evil. Unlike Jesus Christ, neither the prophet Mohammed or this so called god Allaha have any power to save or deliver anyone from the power of sin.

On the other hand, true bible-believing Christians worship and love the one true God and acknowledge that the bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God given to God's people as their rule for living. As such, nowhere will it ever be found that this book sanctions the systematic persecution of any people on this earth. And all true Christians know they have been saved from their sins because of our personal relationship with Christ.

Further, this book we call the "bible" contains numerous NT prophecies relevant to God's New Covenant people, i.e his "church". These prophecies predicted that the church would largely become an apostate body -- a body of professing believers who will be wicked and carnal and evil. A body that would also become infiltrated with heretics who would spread their destructive doctrines -- also spawned from the the pit of hell. And sadly, so it has been throughout all these many centuries -- even from the very beginning -- even from the days of the Apostles. And this state of apostasy will continue this way until the end of the age. But...not all professing Christians will succumb to evil. God has always graciously saved a remnant for himself. There will always be those who will "fight the good fight" and persevere until the end by that same grace.

And this is the difference between Islam and Christianity. This is why Islam will never overcome evil. It will continue to serve its spiritual father -- the Evil One, while a remnant of true Christians will serve and worship and love the one true, living God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because Christ actually has the power to deliver his people.

But before I take leave of this topic, I do want to thank you for giving us all your many church history lessons. Your lessons truly give affirmation to all those NT prophecies about what would become of Christ's church. I know you don't believe in bible prophecy -- but that's your problem, just as it's your problem now to try to explain away all those prophecies in the light of this rather ignominious portion of church history; for which I, as a believer, am not proud. Thankfully, though, there is much in church history that is good and noble and edifying. And I choose to think upon these things rather than wallow in the muck and mire of the apostates or heretics at worst, or very misguided or immature believers at best.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

If the demographics in this film that was e-mailed to me are true....6-3X5hIFXYU

[Greyfox]

To try to be somewhat objective on this, here is an article on the net that claims the demographics in the above film aren't true.
It claims that sources aren't cited.

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslim-demographics-fact-vs-fiction.html

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm having a serious case of Islamic deja vu...

[hcap]

In short, Islam is a religion spawned from the pit of hell. Who the self-deceived Muslims truly worship is their spiritual father -- the devil. As such, I can say that there is no recourse for any unrepentant Muslim. I can say from a biblical perspective that the Islamic religion can only bear bad fruit because the tree itself is evil. Unlike Jesus Christ, neither the prophet Mohammed or this so called god Allaha have any power to save or deliver anyone from the power of sin.You have done an exemplary job of avoiding rationality and logic. You are in total denial-once again.

Whatever.
Btw, you might as well quote Cotton Mather as a reliable source...

"Cases of Conscience
concerning evil
SPIRITS
Personating Men,
Witchcrafts, infallible Proofs of
Guilt in such as are accused
with that Crime.

All Considered according to the Scriptures,
History, Experience, and the Judgment
of may Learned men. "

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/speccol/mather/

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/speccol/mather/mather.jpg

"Spectral evidence was testimony that the accused witch's spirit (i.e. spectre) appeared to the witness in a dream or vision (maybe a black cat or wolf for example). The dream or vision was admitted as evidence. Thus, witnesses (who were often the accusers) would testify that "Goody Proctor bit, pinched, and almost choked me," and it would be taken as evidence that the accused were responsible for the biting, pinching and choking even though they were elsewhere at the time.

....Rev. Cotton Mather argued that it was appropriate to admit spectral evidence into legal proceedings, but cautioned that convictions should not be based on spectral evidence alone as it was possible for the Devil to take the shape of an innocent person."


See you at the next Islam is Hell debate.
They occur every few months here.

BTW, how many Angels do dance on the head of a pin?

[hcap]

Box is that you on the left in the white whig?

http://www.wsu.edu/~campbelld/amlit/wtrial.JPG


Examination of a Witch, by T.H. Matteson 1853.
Courtesy of the Peabody Essex Museum and The Salem Witch Trials Memorial.









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