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kenwoodall
04-25-2003, 04:40 AM
I hit 60% spot wins and 1.25 ROI.in Ca. using a variant i discovered and the racing program. I do not use speed figures. I use my variant as intended- to review and predict track-surface speed. I also handicap using the DRF to find WPS profits using my own system. To the industry pros- i would like to become a public handicapper.

thoroughbred
04-25-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by kenwoodall
I hit 60% spot wins and 1.25 ROI.in Ca. using a variant i discovered and the racing program. I do not use speed figures. I use my variant as intended- to review and predict track-surface speed. I also handicap using the DRF to find WPS profits using my own system. To the industry pros- i would like to become a public handicapper.

To convince us, you need to post your selections, here, IN ADVANCE. Short of doing that, you won't be believed.

anotherdave
04-25-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by thoroughbred
To convince us, you need to post your selections, here, IN ADVANCE. Short of doing that, you won't be believed.

And then you would be a "public handicapper"!

AD

kenwoodall
04-25-2003, 07:52 PM
To anotherDave- i meant "paid"!!

_________
To Mr. Computracker- Do you win when "slop" is predicted" or "muddy" is predicted? I just predict on dry land also!
Did you know most of the time SA's turf track produces faster times than its dirt track? Or that GGf claimsa harrowing of 2 1/2", while Calder harrows 7"? Try adjusting speed figures for those 2 tracks!!
All variant and speed figure systems i know of are based on a single super fast race and computed using a couple of races for variant, and 1 race for speed figures when most race clocks are not started until 1 second or so out of the gate. Then without a reliable way of predicting the speed of the current day's race, tries to inividually compare each horse with every other in the race. Then maybe a longshot tries to steal the race! Lucky anyone can break even!!
The only reliable way to determine actual track-surface speed is to use a the same number for all (dirt) races same day, same track. Then use 1 factor to determine what the current day's tack-suface speed will be.
My best day at both Ca. tracks using that method for dirt and the program only was 13 races, 11 wins.
___________

The belief that an angle, factor, method, or system is common-sense and reasonable is what all my systems are based on. That is why they work. Does this one make sense to anyone??

Lefty
04-25-2003, 08:43 PM
"all variant and speed systems re based on single super fast race." What? Most i'm aware of are based on a seasons worth of races for the pars. And variants are the differences in day to day surface. Could you cite an example of a method based on a single race?

Fastracehorse
04-25-2003, 08:49 PM
Could you expand on your system.

It sounds interesting.

:) :) :) :D :cool: :cool:

fffastt

kenwoodall
04-25-2003, 09:59 PM
I erred. I meant to say the top speed or Beyer rating of the current race being handicapped is based on the result of 1 very fast race.
The only reliable way to predict what the track-surface speed is going to be is to know which morning workout times to use. But a lot of people will believe trainers mess with the horses too much to produce any reliable workout times!

superfecta
04-26-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by kenwoodall
I hit 60% spot wins and 1.25 ROI.in Ca. using a variant i discovered and the racing program. I do not use speed figures. I use my variant as intended- to review and predict track-surface speed. I also handicap using the DRF to find WPS profits using my own system. To the industry pros- i would like to become a public handicapper. Why?If you are a spot player your win pct will suffer as a public handicapper.Or if you are a tout handicapper,why share your picks?Bet them yourself and unlock the key to the mint.

kenwoodall
04-27-2003, 03:15 AM
Public handicappers often have 3 picks per race but have to bet real money only on the ones they want. I will put out my picks and tips, but do not have to reveal my systems. If handicappers played all my top picks as win or show they will be in the black. Of course everybody's ROI improve with spot plays. I can spot play about 2/3 of any races in the U.S. without hurting my ROI because I use 3 different methods of pickng wins.
I have not found anyone who picks California fairs for other than thoroughbreds but i will.

Hosshead
04-27-2003, 07:38 AM
Kenwoodall- "the only reliable way to predict what the track surface speed is going to be, is to know which morning workout times to use."

After the morning workouts, and before the afternoon races, most track maintance crews, work on the track, watering, etc..
Not to mention the change in temp. and weather. Wouldn't this make variants made from morning workouts- UNreliable ?

kenwoodall
04-27-2003, 06:17 PM
The changes between works and races so far has not affected my ROI or my win % Check the Equibase works today at GGF.

kenwoodall
04-27-2003, 06:18 PM
The changes between works and races so far has not affected my ROI or my win % Check the Equibase works today at GGF. (and Bay Meadows).

kenwoodall
04-27-2003, 09:12 PM
Today at Bay Meadows must have been no changes, no wind, and only light rain; I picked 8 of 8 in the dirt today, all favorites. And very fast workouts.

kenwoodall
04-27-2003, 09:30 PM
Bay Meadows I picked non-favs Sat., only 2 favs won; Sun. I picked all favs in the dirt, 8 of 8 won. Check the Sat. and Sun. works. I did not fix the works OR the races!! LOL!! I made 100% profit off the program!!!

Dave Schwartz
04-27-2003, 09:54 PM
Ken,

8-for-8? Playing one horse? What program? How do I get this program?

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

John
04-27-2003, 10:19 PM
Hey Dave, order one for me too....Please!!!!

freeneasy
04-28-2003, 12:07 AM
say what? leme try and get some of this straight.
if the workouts for today are fast then and the top beyer is the result of one race being very fast then you find a comparative race in the horses pp to handicap and so you found this to be present in all 8 favorites that you bet on and won with at BM on sat. So if the workouts for sat. were slow you would look for the slow pacelines in the pp to handicap. makes sense to a point but you better have a long, long workout of results. you talking about out of your top 3 or 4 that you had 8 wins and those 8 wins were favs or were these winners your top picks only

kenwoodall
04-28-2003, 02:02 AM
You guys are overthinking because of information overload and being used to seeing the "Experts" getting 3 chances to pick a horse. Let me expain- I do not use beyers, speed, or the form if the track is fast enough. I only pick 1 horse per race on any bets i may on my 2 sysyems or other bets. Just like in the true "slop" when the track is sealed- true fast track, fast horse. I think in the DRF a dry track is either fast or good, and fast can vary as to track-surface speed.
It takes about 2-5 minutes to adjust the harrow blades on a racetrack tractor but quite a while to harrow the track carefully so it is usually done at night. Last year Calder was harrowwed (dug) 7", Tup 3 1/2". GGF is dug 2 1/2" on Wednesdays and Thursdays, sometimes Fridays. It is usually dug about 4" on weekends. This weekend, especially when the big races occur so new betters will win big. That was why I won 35-1 on Red River Valley Easter. GP was souped up for Sunshine Millions for the times to look good against SA's.
Bay Meadows was sealed Saturday night as it rained lightly today. Fast workouts, fast track, fast horses are bet as favorites in Northern Ca. and most other tracks where the track is known to be true fast.
I have taken college classes on farming and animal husbandry and worked on a farm. I also love to research including horse behavior. Horses prefer to run in packs unless the pack is way too slow. Anyway, a thoroughbred's natural maximum running distance and energy output in nature is 4f, so 4f workouts are the key. I estimate the middle/average workout like tody's 20/40 and classify dirt workouts as fast, medium,or slow. I add 1 second for Eastern Time Zone track like NY, FL, KY.
I have used this method for about 3 months at various tracks but mostly Ca. 11 of 13 my best there. I am still working on slow days but my rule is "fast track-fast horse; medium track-best horse; and so far slow tracks-2-6 back.
Obviously true fast tracks are easiest and where you know the fast horses are the favorites it is automatic. In Ca. and with speed jockeys like Jerry Bailey on cheapies. In Ca. if the track is true fast I automatically bet all favorites in the dirt and now am wining 63% using just the program.

Dan Montilion
04-28-2003, 04:32 AM
I Got it... Bet the fast horse on the fast track.

Dan Montilion

John
04-28-2003, 10:49 AM
No Dan, I think he is saying bet the fast track[ bet the favorite] on te east coast he will get killed...just my opinion.

kenwoodall
04-28-2003, 01:17 PM
I stated BM and other tracks known to be fast the favorites are fast horses. This past weekend Aq had 3 works and listed track as "sloppy"(=fast) Saturday, 5 of 9 winners were favorites. Sunday was listed as muddy but was fast finish times, 6 of 9 winners were favorites. Both days most winners were close or on the pace. Calder, where it is reported faster overall this year, was slow works and most winners Sun. were slower starters, some paid well. Churchill Sun. had very fast 4f works and fast finish times. Only 2 winners were ever more than 3 back and most paid well. Those who profit!

cato
04-28-2003, 01:39 PM
STill trying to understand your theory. This will either clarify it or be clompletely wrong and, thus, add to the chaos....

Lets take a sample day...theoretical Saturday...

If the workouts Saturday morning for the general horse population are "fast" compared to some data you have been accumulating, and the track is listed as "fast" or is "wet fast" or "sloppy" you think tha favorites are more likely to win. Is this what you are trying to say?

If so, how far back do you go to look at the times on the workouts?

DO you look at the workouts of the horses who are running or just bet favorites? DO yo ubet ML favorites or betting favorites? as determined when?

And, if the workouts for the horse population are slow, then the track will be slow and you look for "slower" horses (?). There are a bunch of slower horses--how do you determine which ones to bet on? Closers? SLow low odds horses. Spotted horses with wings? Curious minds want to know!

Take care!

Cato

kenwoodall
04-28-2003, 01:43 PM
Aq Sunday first 5 races were listed as "muddy", last 4 as "good". Of the 9 races, the 6f split or final time of 7 were run at 1:10.1 or less. If you jump to conclusions without checking things out for yourself you might not be able to tell the BS from the truth. Tracks like to BS the bettors a lot to get them not to bet intelligently. My system predicts mostly dry track-surface speed to bet according to running style. If winners are more prdictable like Churchill Sunday I will accept the payoff even if they are non-favorites like Churchill Sunday!!!

freeneasy
04-28-2003, 02:04 PM
as well as on those fast workout days when you bet the fast favorites, does it matter wheather that fav. is a front runner, mid-pact, or late-pact runner as long as that horse is being the fastest horse in the race.
what if theres a faster horse in the race but he aint the fav. or is it on the general assumption that the fav. is usually considered the fastest horse in the race so he is bet regaurdless. just has to be the fav and thats all.
and are you saying that on these fast days the horse must be the fav.
what about those fast days where there has been fast wokouts recorded and the fav. craps out for the day.
youve shown a couple of days where youve had 8 out of 8 and high win% but how consistantly do those those figs hold out. could be you locked into a passing trend for a while, I dont know

Early
04-28-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by kenwoodall
Tracks like to BS the bettors a lot to get them not to bet intelligently.

Why would the tracks care how the bettors bet - intelligently or otherwise? The takeout is a constant, so the track makes money no matter who wins or loses. The only exception are minus show pools, where the track must pay out the minimum regardless of the wagered odds.

Rick
04-28-2003, 04:14 PM
Using workouts from today's race to determine how fast today's track is seems to be a good idea. I think it may be more profitable to use it to decide whether front runners will last though rather than just betting on favorites. Another use for workouts that I've thought of before is to use them to determine a track variant for previous races. Since the sample size is much larger than just the number of races in a given day, it should give a more accurate variant except when the weather changes radically throughout the day. Of course it would be a major undertaking to do that for all tracks, so it's only an untested theory at this point.

andicap
04-28-2003, 07:03 PM
1. Just because a track has very very fast times doesn't always mean that fast i.e. front-running types, horses win that day. I've seen plenty of tracks where times were souped up but horses were able to win from off the pace. Not FAR off the pace, but pressers within 2 or 3 lengths.

2. I still can't believe that the track condition doesn't change from 6 a.m. and 2 p.m. on the same day. I could be wrong, but all the work the crews do between the workouts and the start of racing doesn't affect the track?
And the rains that come sometimes in the late mornings?
I guess I don't understand how you decide how the track is running if the conditions change.

Pace Cap'n
04-28-2003, 07:05 PM
Ken

Do I understand correctly that you use workouts from the current day to handicap that afternoon's races? If so, where does one obtain that info?

ThoroTech_SoCal
04-28-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Early
Why would the tracks care how the bettors bet - intelligently or otherwise? The takeout is a constant, so the track makes money no matter who wins or loses. The only exception are minus show pools, where the track must pay out the minimum regardless of the wagered odds.


Early,

Overall I agree with your above comments. But consider this, the track most likely pefers that the favorite or co-favorites win most races, because this allows the dollars returned to reach many players rather than just a few.

Thus, more dollars are reinvested for additional takeout race after race. In other words, if a few win most the money returned, less money is most likely in action over and over again.

Just another opinion,

Bill

P.S. Now when your considering the Pick 6 wager, the opposite is true, a large rollover and the track loves it!!!!

kenwoodall
04-29-2003, 04:22 AM
Here is how to check my system:

Call your track maintenance and ask how deep they harrow it. then let me know!!
Go to Equibase.com workouts 10:30 AM to noon. Find the track you want, racing the current day, and look at dirt 4f workouts.
(1) If there are very few 4f works it is probably a wet track and if the track was sealed it should be fast, otherwise maybe slow. Call the track and ask if it was sealed.
(2) On 4f workouts, look at the middle horse's time (for example, 10/20, 20/40). If your track is Eastern Time Zone including Ky and the time is under 50 seconds the track is fast. 50 to 51 seconds the track is medium speed. Over 51 seconds the track is slow (be a little flexible). Subtract 1 second for all other tracks.
(3) Match the track speed to the horse's running style. this is how I do it: Fast track-on or within 2 lengths of the pace. Medium track-best horse regardless of style. Slow track-2-6 lengths off the pace by the far turn.
SORRY- but the slower the track the more handicapping is needed. That is my system. California speed= favorites. That is how I can bet favorites Ca. without the form as long as the 4f works are under 49 seconds. My best was 8 of 8 BM, 13 of 16 GGF and SA. You can just follow and record results without betting if you like. Check the results on Equibase.com charts for listed track condition, winners' running style, times, and leading jockey riding style. That is what I do for all my systems. I have followed and bet this system about 50 fast racecards in CA. and hitting 63% wins with no days in the red.

hurrikane
04-29-2003, 06:07 AM
Kendall,
instead of telling me what happened Saturday, how about taking today and doing the card and explaining your idea and your picks.
Over 60% of the races are won by horses on or near the lead. That being the case what does the workout do to improve your win %. I don't see it.
Could you just do one card in advance and explain your logic.

As for the public handicapper. Why? You are making good money betting. The only reason I could see you giving things to the public is ego. I hope that's not it. :D

John
04-29-2003, 08:56 AM
hurrikane@HTR...............Good idea


When I go to track, if the first or second race splits and final time is better than par. I know the track is fast. What do you think.

jotb
04-29-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by kenwoodall
Here is how to check my system:

Call your track maintenance and ask how deep they harrow it. then let me know!!
Go to Equibase.com workouts 10:30 AM to noon. Find the track you want, racing the current day, and look at dirt 4f workouts.
(1) If there are very few 4f works it is probably a wet track and if the track was sealed it should be fast, otherwise maybe slow. Call the track and ask if it was sealed.
(2) On 4f workouts, look at the middle horse's time (for example, 10/20, 20/40). If your track is Eastern Time Zone including Ky and the time is under 50 seconds the track is fast. 50 to 51 seconds the track is medium speed. Over 51 seconds the track is slow (be a little flexible). Subtract 1 second for all other tracks.
(3) Match the track speed to the horse's running style. this is how I do it: Fast track-on or within 2 lengths of the pace. Medium track-best horse regardless of style. Slow track-2-6 lengths off the pace by the far turn.
SORRY- but the slower the track the more handicapping is needed. That is my system. California speed= favorites. That is how I can bet favorites Ca. without the form as long as the 4f works are under 49 seconds. My best was 8 of 8 BM, 13 of 16 GGF and SA. You can just follow and record results without betting if you like. Check the results on Equibase.com charts for listed track condition, winners' running style, times, and leading jockey riding style. That is what I do for all my systems. I have followed and bet this system about 50 fast racecards in CA. and hitting 63% wins with no days in the red.


Hello Kenwoodall:

Some questions for you.

1- How do you compare breezing works vs. handily works?

2- If a 6F work was published in a time that was 116BG, what if the horse worked the first half in a fast 45 but galloped out the rest of the way? Would this be a true time (116BG)?

3- Not all horses breeze the way you think. Some will break off from a certain pole and some will breeze from the gate. Don't you think this effects workout times?

4- Most racetracks will have several breaks during the morning so the maintaince crew can work on the surface. How do you know which horses worked before the first break and after the first break? All workout times at Equibase do not inform the public when so and so worked (at what time).

5- Some maintance crews do not touch the track in the morning. If the times for the morning were on the slow side because the surface might have been cuppy and prior to the day's racing the maintaince crew water's down the surface to tighten it up, is it possible that times of the races could be much quicker than the morning workout times? How do you handle that?

6- In the morning's at many racetracks the maintaince crew will work on the surface after the first break and most trainers want to be the first work on the freshly harrowed surface. Most of the times are going to be much quicker after the first break but as the morning rolls along and the track gets dull the times are effected. How do you work around this?

I have some other questions in you can answer these question first.

Best regards,
Joe

hurrikane
04-29-2003, 05:30 PM
rojack,

I'm not all that big on pars. I would say that is a good idea if you had projected the time race would be run in and it's outcome was different than expected. But you may have research that shows otherwise. I'm not all that big a person to snap to judgement on a track.

Has it been working well for you?

John
04-29-2003, 08:30 PM
Hurricane,

Nothing is ever that good. If it was I would betting away, rather than answering links.Lets not forget we are gambling and there are risks we have to take. Problem is some risks are not justified.

Sunday, I keyed a horse in my pick 4 in the 7th race The only horse that lost in my pick 4 went off at .60-1 and jockey was J.Santos. Here is the chartmaker's call:..."BEAUTIFUL AMERICA was bumped at the start and was pinched back between rivals, was hustled up inside, was steadied in the stretch, altered course to the outside and lacked a rally."

There is no method or a software that can predict the above. We are all gambling. Luckily I hit the late DD the last two of my pick 4 and got out for the day.

Proverb, You buy your ticket and you take your chances

kenwoodall
04-30-2003, 03:24 AM
I am not interested in responding to people who have a closed mind and think horseracing is pure luck or all fixed or want guaranteed picks without risk. My brother has been a loser at the races for 30 years with those attitudes and i have benn a winner for all 2 of my betting. For others, try it if you like. Fast works, fast winner.
Me giving away a good system has nothing to do with ego. I want credibility and a good reputation and will always be ahead of the curve coming up with more ways to win!!

kenwoodall
04-30-2003, 03:43 AM
Beautiful america broke 8th,and stayed eve throughout the race and held position. The leader faded badly, and speed jockey Bailey saved ground inside and still lost 7 lengths in the last 2f. Your horse did a great job and paid off for the owner in 4th!! I'm ready to bet it next race.
I do not expect guarantees- I've had 1 jockey fall off in the 8,000 races I've bet with my other show syatem and I was mad!! Also I actually had 1 horse die on the track that I bet on- of course, it died After crossing the wire third and I still won $$$ on it! (I'm sorry it died). My 8 of 8 dirt Sunday was luck- I expected 6 or 7 out of 8!

Diamond K
04-30-2003, 05:56 AM
Good gosh....you are a two fisted system player.
8,000 races in 2 years playing just 'one' of your systems. I figure you played 720 days betting over 11 races a day. I bet a few races this year and Pincay went down and last weekend at MNR had another jockey go off. You only had one in 8,000 races and you were mad? I think I should be twice as mad betting 80 races.

How did the horse die that you won on? Heart attack? Being in animal husbandry do you know how to assist a horse having a heart attack? In 40 years of racing I've only seen one horse die after a race, and that was a Bold Ruler 2yo worth a small fortune at that time. However, I've seen quite a few we had to put down.

What has turned out to be a credible possibility seems to be getting a bit exaggerated or we do have an ego possibility.

hurrikane
04-30-2003, 07:09 AM
kenwoodall,
I'm really not interested in a system or a record or your brother.
I have an open mind and just wanted you to take todays card before it was run, make your picks with the logic behind them.

I dont' think that is unreasonable or closed minded.

I always listen to new ideas.
I have to admit...most are bs. But I always listen.
I'm either curious or my mother did a good job raising me.

John
04-30-2003, 08:53 AM
There you go kenwoodall,

Shut me up, Diamond K, and Hurrikane also.

Just post a few selections, lets see what happens. Post 7 winners out of 8 and I will concide my title GURU, to you.

andicap
04-30-2003, 10:16 AM
Ken,
So your 8 of 8 is a show system? (not that that's bad, I'm just curious)
I think the majority of us are always interested in new ideas here. You take them or leave them. There are lots of egos involved in this game -- I admit I feel pretty special when I have a positive ROI, like I'm better than other people and I want to brag about it. (OK mostly to my wife, but still...)

I've tried to show some people how I handicap but it requires a bit of judgment and nuance -- although it is a systematic type of method (NOT A SYSTEM) so as soon I start explaining it, they say, "Whoa that's complicated and lose interest."

I for one will check out the connection between speed of workouts in the morning at Belmont and how they run in the afternoon. If it doesn't work for me -- that's OK too.

jotb
04-30-2003, 10:58 AM
To all:

I can't believe this thread went as far as it did! Why entertain such nonsense. What the hell is this guy talking about? Maintaince crew, fast works=fast winner, if the track was sealed it should be fast otherwise maybe slow, me giving away a good system has nothing to do with ego, Bailey speed jockey, the slower the track the more handicapping is needed, California speed=favorites, call your maintaince crew and asked them how deep they harrow the track and then let me know, I do not expect guarantee's, I've had 1 jockey fall off in the 8,000 races I bet on with my other show system, I want to be a public handicapper and get paid for it....

So this is the competition that we compete against each and every day. I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!

Joe

Diamond K
04-30-2003, 03:34 PM
Kenwoodall

I would never try to shut you up. You have something that works for you and I truly respect your convictions.
Can you understand why I questioned a few things? Horses dying during a race and you still win the bet, and only 1 jockey falling off a horse in 8,000 races? With those winning stats in 2 years all you talk about is your one day 8 for 8 and ask me to duplicate it? I absolutely cannot, unless I have your handicap luck which is unbelievable.

Keep up the good work. I for another will certainly check out your system. Please give us a post for a days races you handicap at any track in the world. Let us enjoy your profitability.

I am also going to see if I can start handicapping tractors and maintenance crews. It seems plausible.

John
04-30-2003, 09:36 PM
Hey Diamond,

Don't forget to check the air in the tractors tires.50 pounds of air or 40 pounds of air could make a difference.

This post sounds like a lot of hot air to me.

superfecta
04-30-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by kenwoodall
Me giving away a good system has nothing to do with ego. I want credibility and a good reputation and will always be ahead of the curve coming up with more ways to win!! It has everything to do with ego if you want a good reputation and credibility.Otherwise you would just collect your winnings.So just be aware of that,or it could get the best of you.

formula_2002
04-30-2003, 09:56 PM
kenwoodall

Andycap thinks your 8 for 8 was show plays.

Are we talking about show betting?

If you dont mind, offer a few facts.
Bet type ?
# plays ?
# of winning bets ?
Average dollar win odds for the winning bet ?
Average dollar win odds for all bets.

Thanks, and continued success.

Joe M

kenwoodall
05-02-2003, 07:38 AM
www.equibase.com has results. I am picking all dirt favorites for Bay Meadows Friday May 2.

kenwoodall
05-02-2003, 07:51 AM
Just check 4f dirt works at any track and when the average work is 49 or less seconds, check tha same say results to see if speed won. At churchill some speed oberlays won Sunday. DRF May 2 page 6 Steve Anderson's story on Kafwain says 5 horses have died last Saturday thru Tuesday at Chirchill Downs.

hurrikane
05-02-2003, 09:39 AM
well, I"m confused. go figure.

you said check the works if under 49 then bet speed. (early speed?)

then you say works today under 49 so bet all favorites (mlo or off odds?)

This seems like 2 different strategies ken.

so, you bet early speed or the fav?

Show Me the Wire
05-02-2003, 10:03 AM
hurrikane@HTR:

qoute from Kenwoodall:

"California speed= favorites. That is how I can bet favorites Ca. without the form as long as the 4f works are under 49 seconds."

Does this clarify what he does?

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

hurrikane
05-02-2003, 11:05 AM
clear as mud...smtw.

median morning work 48.8
Thurs
odds on fav
5/8 20.80

early speed
3/8 19.00

now if your talking Beyer spped, I don't use them I use Cramer.


it doesn't matter much to me really. I don't bet chalk puke and I don't play short fields which is about all BM has these days.

hurrikane
05-03-2003, 10:16 AM
guess the bankrolls feeling a little thinner today...eh kendallwood.