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tribecaagent
04-25-2009, 12:44 PM
Why would they sell a piece of I Want Revenge now???

We're a week away from the Derby and from what I've read the horse is doing well. Why would they sell a piece of this horse NOW?? I just don't get it.

toussaud
04-25-2009, 12:48 PM
huh?

joanied
04-25-2009, 01:01 PM
I doubt IEAH is even near broke...selling a small percentage of IWR is sorta like.."why not"?? IEAH will still have the controlling interest in IWR...and if you think about it...if the horse flops in the Derby, Singer might not want any part of him...ya know what they say about gettin' in while the gettin' is good...I se no underlying problem with this transaction....just business as usual for IEAH.

That's my opinion:)

tribecaagent
04-25-2009, 01:26 PM
I have to disagree with you Joanie. If I owned a horse with the credentials of IWR and we're a week away from the big one AND he's training well on the Churchill surface.....

If anyone approched me with an offer to buy a piece of my horse, I'm sorry my friend, that train has left the station.

toussaud
04-25-2009, 01:31 PM
what did I miss?

tribecaagent
04-25-2009, 01:33 PM
Go to the PA homepage and read the top stories.

Imriledup
04-25-2009, 01:43 PM
Why would they sell a piece of I Want Revenge now???

We're a week away from the Derby and from what I've read the horse is doing well. Why would they sell a piece of this horse NOW?? I just don't get it.

Didn't they BUY a piece of IWR?

IWR is owned by Lanzman and he sold part of the horse to IEAH.

joanied
04-25-2009, 02:16 PM
here is the article link, toussaud:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50403/singer-acquires-piece-of-i-want-revenge?id=50403&source=rss

Doesn't really say much...I'd assume more info would be forthcoming?

miesque
04-25-2009, 02:20 PM
Hope that goes better for the purchaser then the last time IEAH sold part of a recent expensive acquisition...

joanied
04-25-2009, 02:27 PM
I have to disagree with you Joanie. If I owned a horse with the credentials of IWR and we're a week away from the big one AND he's training well on the Churchill surface.....

If anyone approched me with an offer to buy a piece of my horse, I'm sorry my friend, that train has left the station.

What don't you agree with, tribe...that they sold a percentage of IWR to Singer...or that I doubt IEAH is going broke?

If it's just about selling a piece of IWR...I'd have to agree with you on that point...just like you, if he was mine, I would not have sold even a tiny percentage of him...but we don't know 'the rest of the story'...again, I doubt it has anything to do with the IEAH bankroll...maybe Singer is a friend, so they did him a favor and let him take a small percentage...maybe it's like 1%...we don't know...could be other factors involved also...
but, it's all speculation until they decide to give some details about the deal....IF they decide to give out details.
At any rate...it is kinda interesting.
:)

joanied
04-25-2009, 02:36 PM
Hope that goes better for the purchaser then the last time IEAH sold part of a recent expensive acquisition...

Well, I think we'd need to give THAT purchase a little time... some time for R&R and then we'll know wether or not it was the purchase they hoped it would be. If she's sound...she'll be back.
Time will tell, eh :)

fmolf
04-25-2009, 03:04 PM
i think Lanzman still owns the controlling interest and just perhaps maybe Singer controls some prime broodmare that iwr will be bred to and they'll all get richer!

Spendabuck85
04-25-2009, 03:35 PM
I don't recall them selling a piece of Big Brown before the Ky Derby so I would view this as a negative until more info comes out.

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 04:22 PM
i think Lanzman still owns the controlling interest and just perhaps maybe Singer controls some prime broodmare that iwr will be bred to and they'll all get richer!

I analyzed IEAH to death and couldnt make sense of it so I went to a friend who knows a ton abt horses and business in general....his take is that noone from IEAH is getting rich, except Iavarone and anyone else getting the management fees.From a business perspective, he feels the venture is a mess. Iavarone's motivation is to get as many investors as possible, keep the money coming in and keep the management fees going, not necessarily to make money. That is what explains the high profile, low return, buy high purchases he makes in order to keep attention on IEAH and keep the new money coming in. When the motivation of the person controlling things conflicts with those investing, the result is often grim and that is what he predicts for IEAH long term and I cant help but agree.

As far as why they sold part of IWR, who knows but I dont think it can be viewed as a good thing.....

Watcher
04-25-2009, 04:26 PM
Sure this absolutely makes sense...

It's very similar to what the IEAH boys were doing before they got into racing: pump and dump stocks.

They purchased a large chunk of IWR using Stardom Bound + some cash. If they were approached by Singer to purchase a piece of IWR, especially at an attractive price (around what they paid cash for IWR), they're basically freerolling on IWR now that Stardom Bound is resting at the farm.

Watcher
04-25-2009, 04:29 PM
For you conspiracy theorists on this board...

You could say they knew Stardom Bound was going to get turned out. Trade a % of her for a Derby contender, IWR. Then sell off a piece of IWR right before the derby when his price is at an all-time high. :cool:

But really, could this have to do with IWR becoming the favorite now that QR has two quarter cracks to deal with? I'm sure there are people out there willing to pay a premium for a piece of the potential Derby favorite 7 days before the race.

Seems like smart business on part of IEAH.

fmolf
04-25-2009, 04:43 PM
Sure this absolutely makes sense...

It's very similar to what the IEAH boys were doing before they got into racing: pump and dump stocks.

They purchased a large chunk of IWR using Stardom Bound + some cash. If they were approached by Singer to purchase a piece of IWR, especially at an attractive price (around what they paid cash for IWR), they're basically freerolling on IWR now that Stardom Bound is resting at the farm.
i heard Iavarone in an interview once say and i'm paraphrasing now,that he wanted Ieah to be modeled after wall street investment firms as a kind of horseracing mutual fund.... this sale would be called hedging your investment, because winning the derby is still an iffy proposition and if he doesn't win his stock goes down....breeding rights may still have something to do with it anyway, because that is what makes these colts so valuable anyway!

onefast99
04-25-2009, 05:08 PM
They are smart business men and I would say they made a very smart move selling a piece of this horse to Singer.

Watcher
04-25-2009, 05:11 PM
i heard Iavarone in an interview once say and i'm paraphrasing now,that he wanted Ieah to be modeled after wall street investment firms as a kind of horseracing mutual fund.... this sale would be called hedging your investment, because winning the derby is still an iffy proposition and if he doesn't win his stock goes down....breeding rights may still have something to do with it anyway, because that is what makes these colts so valuable anyway!
Absolutely a hedge, I don't think we should read into this that IWR isn't a definite contender.

Dahoss9698
04-25-2009, 05:18 PM
They are smart business men and I would say they made a very smart move selling a piece of this horse to Singer.

I read this a lot and I don't really get it. If you look at ALL of their purchases and not just the successful ones like Big Brown, how are they smart business men? They overpay for nearly every horse they buy.

ManeMediaMogul
04-25-2009, 05:39 PM
Why would they sell a piece of I Want Revenge now???

We're a week away from the Derby and from what I've read the horse is doing well. Why would they sell a piece of this horse NOW?? I just don't get it.

Maybe because his last two workouts were horrible? :cool:

slewis
04-25-2009, 06:39 PM
I read this a lot and I don't really get it. If you look at ALL of their purchases and not just the successful ones like Big Brown, how are they smart business men? They overpay for nearly every horse they buy.

Do you think they overpaid for IWR..??

Everyone on this forum needs to understand 2 MAJOR points when it comes to buying and selling Thoroughbreds....

1) This business is NOT like normal business ventures... No one can buy a successful proven racehorse unless they OPEN THEIR CHECKBOOK and PAY UP...
and UP...and UP......
Or else, take your 3, 4, 5 million dollars and buy and breed (like the great Phipps's and Janney's) and see if you can get one of TWENTY (20) horses... AND ONLY TWENTY that can run in the Kentucky Derby... uhhhh.. that's out of roughly 30,000 foals in that calendar year. (you know, kinda like hitting lotto).

They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.
They will probably have the favorite in this years Derby, won last years and cashed in on the breeding rights.
What do the other two blue-blood clowns I mentioned above have to show for their 50 million dollar investment??? (A good seat with their blue-blood friends at Churchill).
So tell me....who knows what they're doing... and who doesn't?

In regards to selling a piece 7 days before the dance... no one knows the terms of this sale..... But if someone comes along and wants to possibly stand in the winners circle next Saturday.... they need to pay pay pay up up up..
(Did I say this enough)???
Id bet Singer paid well up for 10% or so... maybe as much as 1-2 million.

2) Re-read point # 1....

tribecaagent
04-25-2009, 06:47 PM
Do you think they overpaid for IWR..??

Everyone on this forum needs to understand 2 MAJOR points when it comes to buying and selling Thoroughbreds....

1) This business is NOT like normal business ventures... No one can buy a successful proven racehorse unless they OPEN THEIR CHECKBOOK and PAY UP...
and UP...and UP......
Or else, take your 3, 4, 5 million dollars and buy and breed (like the great Phipps's and Janney's) and see if you can get one of TWENTY (20) horses... AND ONLY TWENTY that can run in the Kentucky Derby... uhhhh.. that's out of roughly 30,000 foals in that calendar year. (you know, kinda like hitting lotto).

They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.
They will probably have the favorite in this years Derby, won last years and cashed in on the breeding rights.
What do the other two blue-blood clowns I mentioned above have to show for their 50 million dollar investment??? (A good seat with their blue-blood friends at Churchill).
So tell me....who knows what they're doing... and who doesn't?

In regards to selling a piece 7 days before the dance... no one knows the terms of this sale..... But if someone comes along and wants to possibly stand in the winners circle next Saturday.... they need to pay pay pay up up up..
(Did I say this enough)???
Id bet Singer paid well up for 10% or so... maybe as much as 1-2 million.

2) Re-read point # 1....

Would you sell your piece of Musket Man?

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:07 PM
Would you sell your piece of Musket Man?


I dont own a piece.. ( I wish I did) I just did the pedigree and priced him on the purchase which started last June but wasn't finalized till September.

But we did try to sell him prior to AND after the Ill Derby.. but couldn't agree on price.

You're question is loaded... If I did own him.. the answer is IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT... EVERY HORSE WE HAVE IS FOR SALE.

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 07:12 PM
Do you think they overpaid for IWR..??

Everyone on this forum needs to understand 2 MAJOR points when it comes to buying and selling Thoroughbreds....

1) This business is NOT like normal business ventures... No one can buy a successful proven racehorse unless they OPEN THEIR CHECKBOOK and PAY UP...
and UP...and UP......
Or else, take your 3, 4, 5 million dollars and buy and breed (like the great Phipps's and Janney's) and see if you can get one of TWENTY (20) horses... AND ONLY TWENTY that can run in the Kentucky Derby... uhhhh.. that's out of roughly 30,000 foals in that calendar year. (you know, kinda like hitting lotto).

They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.
They will probably have the favorite in this years Derby, won last years and cashed in on the breeding rights.
What do the other two blue-blood clowns I mentioned above have to show for their 50 million dollar investment??? (A good seat with their blue-blood friends at Churchill).
So tell me....who knows what they're doing... and who doesn't?

In regards to selling a piece 7 days before the dance... no one knows the terms of this sale..... But if someone comes along and wants to possibly stand in the winners circle next Saturday.... they need to pay pay pay up up up..
(Did I say this enough)???
Id bet Singer paid well up for 10% or so... maybe as much as 1-2 million.

2) Re-read point # 1....

If you really believe that they are clever,you are a clown.

People like the Phipps and their grandchildren will own horses a lot longer than IEAH will be around.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 07:14 PM
I read this a lot and I don't really get it. If you look at ALL of their purchases and not just the successful ones like Big Brown, how are they smart business men? They overpay for nearly every horse they buy.


I am so with you....they arent smart in how they run things at all and make really poor purchases....the smart ones are the guys running things and getting exorbiant management fees for running thngs. Like you, I get so tired of hearing the "great moves" they make....they buy horses at the peak of their value for the most part and that doesnt seem too smart to me....

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 07:14 PM
I analyzed IEAH to death and couldnt make sense of it so I went to a friend who knows a ton abt horses and business in general....his take is that noone from IEAH is getting rich, except Iavarone and anyone else getting the management fees.From a business perspective, he feels the venture is a mess. Iavarone's motivation is to get as many investors as possible, keep the money coming in and keep the management fees going, not necessarily to make money. That is what explains the high profile, low return, buy high purchases he makes in order to keep attention on IEAH and keep the new money coming in. When the motivation of the person controlling things conflicts with those investing, the result is often grim and that is what he predicts for IEAH long term and I cant help but agree.

As far as why they sold part of IWR, who knows but I dont think it can be viewed as a good thing.....

Well said.

DrugS
04-25-2009, 07:15 PM
They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.

Yeah ... I most enjoyed their shrewd placement of sending Kip Deville halfway across the world for a race in Dubai in which he had no realistic chance of being shown crossing the wire at the finish on the TV screen ....

When instead they could have been heavily favored against a short field of total rats in the Grade 1 Makers Mark Mile ... getting him his 3rd straight win in that race ... and setting him up for another strong season in America.

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 07:19 PM
Do you think they overpaid for IWR..??

Everyone on this forum needs to understand 2 MAJOR points when it comes to buying and selling Thoroughbreds....

1) This business is NOT like normal business ventures... No one can buy a successful proven racehorse unless they OPEN THEIR CHECKBOOK and PAY UP...
and UP...and UP......
Or else, take your 3, 4, 5 million dollars and buy and breed (like the great Phipps's and Janney's) and see if you can get one of TWENTY (20) horses... AND ONLY TWENTY that can run in the Kentucky Derby... uhhhh.. that's out of roughly 30,000 foals in that calendar year. (you know, kinda like hitting lotto).

They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.
They will probably have the favorite in this years Derby, won last years and cashed in on the breeding rights.
What do the other two blue-blood clowns I mentioned above have to show for their 50 million dollar investment??? (A good seat with their blue-blood friends at Churchill).
So tell me....who knows what they're doing... and who doesn't?

In regards to selling a piece 7 days before the dance... no one knows the terms of this sale..... But if someone comes along and wants to possibly stand in the winners circle next Saturday.... they need to pay pay pay up up up..
(Did I say this enough)???
Id bet Singer paid well up for 10% or so... maybe as much as 1-2 million.

2) Re-read point # 1....

Well you mention what everyone on this forum needs to understand... so help me understand....


What does "sensational job" mean? What skill does it take to gather a bunch of money and overpay for horses time after time? It takes the ability to take and use other people's money, promise the world and be able to sleep at night....I am jealous of what they are doing but I could never do it and still keep a straight face.......They have done a sensational job selling that their venture is worthwhile but as far as the actual business of running a successful and profitable business, they have been far from "sensational"....

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 07:21 PM
Yeah ... I most enjoyed their shrewd placement of sending Kip Deville halfway across the world for a race in Dubai in which he had no realistic chance of being shown crossing the wire at the finish on the TV screen ....

When instead they could have been heavily favored against a short field of total rats in the Grade 1 Makers Mark Mile ... getting him his 3rd straight win in that race ... and setting him up for another strong season in America.


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

what about their shrewd purchase of Stardom Bound???? the two horses before last year's BC that went nowhere? Patena? The list goes on and on but you dont hear so much about those...

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:24 PM
If you really believe that they are clever,you are a clown.

People like the Phipps and their grandchildren will own horses a lot longer than IEAH will be around.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Only because great grandaddy left them lots and lots of $$$$$$$... not because of their accomplishments in racing.....

how ya left...??:lol:

DrugS
04-25-2009, 07:36 PM
What does "sensational job" mean?

It means having the brains to employ trainers who are alchemists with magical powers instead of trainers with nice repute and moderate results.

In there rare brilliant buys - it means simply having the brains to buy nice prospects - off of fast races - who come from relatively humble backgrounds. Look at their four proudest buys ...

* I Want Revenge - a 95K RNA From Barrets May 2yo sale - hard horse to find after winning the Gotham by a space with a number that comes back sky high on everyones figs.

* Big Brown - 60 K yearling turned 190K KEE April 2yo -wins his debut by a pole on the turf at Saratoga in jaw dropping fashion - final time faster than older stake horses same day and distance.

* Benny The Bull - 38K yearling by obscure stallion Lucky Lionel - very tough horse to find after winning back to back races for Jeff Talley with Beyers of 108 and 111. Yeah, Dutrow can't move-up off of Jeff Talley.

* Kip Deville - an Oklahoma bred son of obscure sire Kipling. 20K yearling - 32K May 2yo sale RNA. Won a stake race at Lone Star on turf by 4 lengths over the good Desert Wheat with a strong 100 turf Beyer for trainer Mike Neatherlin before IEAH bought him. Yeah - Dutrow can't move-up off of the great Mike Neatherlin.

Gee whiz ... sure takes a lot of skill to sniff those ones out.

Overall ... They are just slightly less incompetent than your average bigtime ownership syndicate. I guess they do deserve a lot of credit for that.

They would be borderline competent inspite of a few laughable buys if they weren't sometimes so mediocre spotting their horses.

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:36 PM
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

what about their shrewd purchase of Stardom Bound???? the two horses before last year's BC that went nowhere? Patena? The list goes on and on but you dont hear so much about those...


Are you kidding???

Do you know ANYONE in this game that makes perfect decisions all the time??
Come on, It's rhetorical... because NOBODY does... there are too many variables working against you..

This thread is a merry-go-round of people that hate the IEAH group....

I know Terry Finnley of West Point a bit... We've discussed how hard it is to constantly come up with good horses for a group or partnership.

I'll end this as follows:

If anyone thinks they can do better... dont sit behind you're keyboard and dream or be critical.... give it a go... Go claim a horse if you think you're so smart.....
That's how we got started... just 8 yrs ago...
If there is one thing I learned.... (and we've been pretty darn lucky).....
This is FAR FROM EASY.

Many a successful multi-billionaire has walked into this sport... only to leave with their tail between their legs... a few million poorer.

DrugS
04-25-2009, 07:42 PM
If anyone thinks they can do better... dont sit behind you're keyboard and dream or be critical.... give it a go... Go claim a horse if you think you're so smart.....

It's a lot easier to look sharp buying ready made race horses with ability and getting them to a move-up trainer - than it is buying crippled inconsistant claiming horses.

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 07:44 PM
How many horses do you own?

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:46 PM
It means having the brains to employ trainers who are alchemists with magical powers instead of trainers with nice repute and moderate results.

In there rare brilliant buys - it means simply having the brains to buy nice prospects - off of fast races - who come from relatively humble backgrounds. Look at their four proudest buys ...

* I Want Revenge - a 95K RNA From Barrets May 2yo sale - hard horse to find after winning the Gotham by a space with a number that comes back sky high on everyones figs.

* Big Brown - 60 K yearling turned 190K KEE April 2yo -wins his debut by a pole on the turf at Saratoga in jaw dropping fashion - final time faster than older stake horses same day and distance.

* Benny The Bull - 38K yearling by obscure stallion Lucky Lionel - very tough horse to find after winning back to back races for Jeff Talley with Beyers of 108 and 111. Yeah, Dutrow can't move-up off of Jeff Talley.

* Kip Deville - an Oklahoma bred son of obscure sire Kipling. 20K yearling - 32K May 2yo sale RNA. Won a stake race at Lone Star on turf by 4 lengths over the good Desert Wheat with a strong 100 turf Beyer for trainer Mike Neatherlin before IEAH bought him. Yeah - Dutrow can't move-up off of the great Mike Neatherlin.

Gee whiz ... sure takes a lot of skill to sniff those ones out.

Overall ... They are just slightly less incompetent than your average bigtime ownership syndicate. I guess they do deserve a lot of credit for that.

They would be borderline competent inspite of a few laughable buys if they weren't sometimes so mediocre spotting their horses.


Well then why haven't you taken you're place in the sport???

List you're accomplishements... how you've taken the thoroughbred world on... and conquered.....

Oh, you'd rather just criticize on pace advantage......it's much more an accomplishment.

DrugS
04-25-2009, 07:49 PM
Well then why haven't you taken you're place in the sport???

List you're accomplishements... how you've taken the thoroughbred world on... and conquered.....

Oh, you'd rather just criticize on pace advantage......it's much more an accomplishment.

Yeah ... you need something called a lot of money to buy quality ready made horses.

I don't have it.

Feel free to mock me for that.

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 07:52 PM
Are you kidding???

Do you know ANYONE in this game that makes perfect decisions all the time??
Come on, It's rhetorical... because NOBODY does... there are too many variables working against you..

This thread is a merry-go-round of people that hate the IEAH group....

I know Terry Finnley of West Point a bit... We've discussed how hard it is to constantly come up with good horses for a group or partnership.

I'll end this as follows:

If anyone thinks they can do better... dont sit behind you're keyboard and dream or be critical.... give it a go... Go claim a horse if you think you're so smart.....
That's how we got started... just 8 yrs ago...
If there is one thing I learned.... (and we've been pretty darn lucky).....
This is FAR FROM EASY.

Many a successful multi-billionaire has walked into this sport... only to leave with their tail between their legs... a few million poorer.

FYI-I own five race horses, so you can save your "if it is so easy, go do it yourself" speech for someone else....I never said it was easy. i know how hard it is....I am just responding to people saying how "smart" these guys are.......you seem to always mistake people criticizng IEAH's moves for people saying it is easy. You seem to think people on this board dont know owning horses but I would venture to say that most know how difficult it is.....


IEAH opened itself up for debate and criticism with their brash ways and the fact that they claimed they were going to come up with a way for investors to have a better likelihood of making money with their way of doing things....as I have said before, their model and practices are flawed and that has shown to be true so far IMHO...

I dont hate IEAH, I just get tired of people saying how "shrewd" and "smart" they are....

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Well then why haven't you taken you're place in the sport???

List you're accomplishements... how you've taken the thoroughbred world on... and conquered.....

Oh, you'd rather just criticize on pace advantage......it's much more an accomplishment.


you are making fun of him criticizing on Pace Advantage but arent you doing the same thing to him regarding his posts????

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:54 PM
It's a lot easier to look sharp buying ready made race horses with ability and getting them to a move-up trainer - than it is buying crippled inconsistant claiming horses.


And you need to pay a premium for that... knowing all along that one bad step takes your half million dollar private purchase and turns him into an expensive pet.

BTW for those that dont know... dont waste your money insuring these horses either... it costs a fortune and only covers mortality.

If you insure a half million private purchase and he bows... not only are you out the half mil... but you're insurance premiums as well.

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 07:55 PM
Without people like the Phipp's and the wealthy who enjoy this game as a hobbie you would not have a job in this industry.

How many farms in Kentucky are handed down from generation to generation and I guess that Claiborne was not a great stallion station!
With the relationship between the Hancocks and the Phipps'.

I know Terry Finley quite well and he does not go paying millions for horses.
He surrounds himself with Buzz Chace and Mike Shannon who scout the sales and the coutryside on West Points behalf and does a great job for the members of his syndicate.
:D :D :D

slewis
04-25-2009, 07:55 PM
How many horses do you own?


Why??... You need to root against horses other than Musket Man too??:lol:

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 07:57 PM
Why??... You need to root against horses other than Musket Man too??:lol:

I love Musket Man,I think that he has a real chance next saturday and I wish him all the best.

Do you own him?

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 08:00 PM
FYI-I own five race horses, so you can save your "if it is so easy, go do it yourself" speech for someone else....I never said it was easy. i know how hard it is....I am just responding to people saying how "smart" these guys are.......you seem to always mistake people criticizng IEAH's moves for people saying it is easy. You seem to think people on this board dont know owning horses but I would venture to say that most know how difficult it is.....


IEAH opened itself up for debate and criticism with their brash ways and the fact that they claimed they were going to come up with a way for investors to have a better likelihood of making money with their way of doing things....as I have said before, their model and practices are flawed and that has shown to be true so far IMHO...

I dont hate IEAH, I just get tired of people saying how "shrewd" and "smart" they are....

I do not have to write replies, you do it for me.

Well said.

DrugS
04-25-2009, 08:02 PM
you are making fun of him criticizing on Pace Advantage but arent you doing the same thing to him regarding his posts????

He already tried to bury me for calling Affirmed a good sire.

I think he just wants to hype up our kick boxing contest we will be having later this summer.

People are telling me he's a beast and can ruin me ... I'm in love with my chances after hearing I've been made a 40/1 dog. Should make a good score for sure.

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 08:05 PM
He already tried to bury me for calling Affirmed a good sire.

I think he just wants to hype up our kick boxing contest we will be having later this summer.

People are telling me he's a beast and can ruin me ... I'm in love with my chances after hearing I've been made a 40/1 dog. Should make a good score for sure.


Let me know the closing line and I will put some money down......:)

slewis
04-25-2009, 08:07 PM
Without people like the Phipp's and the wealthy who enjoy this game as a hobbie you would not have a job in this industry.

How many farms in Kentucky are handed down from generation to generation and I guess that Claiborne was not a great stallion station!
With the relationship between the Hancocks and the Phipps'.

I know Terry Finley quite well and he does not go paying millions for horses.
He surrounds himself with Buzz Chace and Mike Shannon who scout the sales and the coutryside on West Points behalf and does a great job for the members of his syndicate.
:D :D :D


Dont f'in dare tell me I wouldn't have a job without the Phipps family...

These people use this sport for their own little playground...

The MAIN reason this sport isn't regulated properly is because the powers that be (that you claim keep me employed, what a joke) INSIST on keeping state and federal regulators and police out.
THEY want to regulate and police and control the sport on THEIR terms.. and they do their very best to keep it that way.

Terry does a GREAT job.. and you substantiated my point. If he had 1/50th the budget Phipps has.... God knows how well West Point would do.
I know I'd take that challenge ANY F--in day of the week..
The Phipps's and Janney's embarrass themselves year in and year out.
You could feed a third world country on what they spend on their "program".

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 08:08 PM
I do not have to write replies, you do it for me.

Well said.


Thanks man....I try to see all sides of IEAH, but when "smart" and "shrewd" get thrown out there, I get my ears pricked and get ready to run....

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 08:10 PM
I think you have them mixed up with Sheikh Mo and Godolphin!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Saratoga_Mike
04-25-2009, 08:11 PM
Thanks man....I try to see all sides of IEAH, but when "smart" and "shrewd" get thrown out there, I get my ears pricked and get ready to run....

Well Michael was an "investment banker," you know?

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 08:12 PM
Why??... You need to root against horses other than Musket Man too??:lol:
What is your connection to Musket Man?

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 08:14 PM
These people use this sport for their own little playground...

Im not a Phipps lover but one thing that separates them from IEAH is that at least they use their own money..............and now, it appears you are using the Pace Forum to launch attacks on the Phipps people, arent you????

DrugS
04-25-2009, 08:15 PM
Let me know the closing line and I will put some money down......:)

What people don't know is that I'm on the juice and I've been hitting the gym like a mofo ... with each rep of the bench press saying "one for Slewy Slewis ... two for Slewy Slewis .. three for Slewy Slewis"

And instead of going for my daily jog at 3pm each day without a shirt on to try and impress all the cute girls as they come out of high school ... I've been doing my road work in the darkness of the night ... jogging down the meanest streets this city has to offer.

Because I don't have bigtime cash to throw around ... I might not be able to get a Dutrow or Mullins to train me up leading into the fight ... but I think I can get your girl Steph Beattie. I'll be so high that he could hit me with a brick and I wouldn't feel it.

I better not talk anymore ... the line might start to move down a few points.

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 08:17 PM
What people don't know is that I'm on the juice and I've been hitting the gym like a mofo ... with each rep of the bench press saying "one for Slewy Slewis ... two for Slewy Slewis .. three for Slewy Slewis"

And instead of going for my daily jog at 3pm each day without a shirt on to try and impress all the cute girls as they come out of high school ... I've been doing my road work in the darkness of the night ... jogging down the meanest streets this city has to offer.

Because I don't have bigtime cash to throw around ... I might not be able to get a Dutrow or Mullins to train me up leading into the fight ... but I think I can get your girl Steph Beattie. I'll be so high that he could hit me with a brick and I wouldn't feel it.

I better not talk anymore ... the line might start to move down a few points.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Beattie comment made my night......

onefast99
04-25-2009, 08:30 PM
Yeah ... you need something called a lot of money to buy quality ready made horses.

I don't have it.

Feel free to mock me for that.
This thread is about IEAH, many don't like the "suits" and how they handle themselves. They have the right to act anyway they want to, people are trusting them to make the right choices when they buy horses, if those investors don't like what is going on they can get out. The money they spend must be accounted for, they want to be in all the big races, no different then any of us who own horses. Their system is unique and still untested. Last year they gave us all a thrill on BB, maybe they can repeat that this year and take our minds off the problems our economy and country currently face.

matthewsiv
04-25-2009, 08:31 PM
Dont f'in dare tell me I wouldn't have a job without the Phipps family...

These people use this sport for their own little playground... and pay the politicians to keep it that way....

The MAIN reason this sport isn't regulated properly is because the powers that be (that you claim keep me employed, what a joke) INSIST on keeping state and federal regulators and police out.
THEY want to regulate and police and control the sport on THEIR terms.. and they do their very best to keep it that way.

Terry does a GREAT job.. and you substantiated my point. If he had 1/50th the budget Phipps has.... God knows how well West Point would do.
I know I'd take that challenge ANY F--in day of the week..
The Phipps's and Janney's embarrass themselves year in and year out.
You could feed a third world country on what they spend on their "program".

Nice language!

You must keep your shrink in cashmere,and how are the anger management classes coming on!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DrugS
04-25-2009, 08:36 PM
Last year they gave us all a thrill on BB, maybe they can repeat that this year and take our minds off the problems our economy and country currently face.

I laughed.

I guess the new motto they should roll with would be something like this ...

'IEAH ... taking our minds off of all the nations problems since 2008.'

onefast99
04-25-2009, 08:37 PM
What people don't know is that I'm on the juice and I've been hitting the gym like a mofo ... with each rep of the bench press saying "one for Slewy Slewis ... two for Slewy Slewis .. three for Slewy Slewis"

And instead of going for my daily jog at 3pm each day without a shirt on to try and impress all the cute girls as they come out of high school ... I've been doing my road work in the darkness of the night ... jogging down the meanest streets this city has to offer.

Because I don't have bigtime cash to throw around ... I might not be able to get a Dutrow or Mullins to train me up leading into the fight ... but I think I can get your girl Steph Beattie. I'll be so high that he could hit me with a brick and I wouldn't feel it.

I better not talk anymore ... the line might start to move down a few points.
Just make sure you go to the NYRA detention barn it's the one where the patients run the asylum!

Relwob Owner
04-25-2009, 08:39 PM
This thread is about IEAH, many don't like the "suits" and how they handle themselves. They have the right to act anyway they want to, people are trusting them to make the right choices when they buy horses, if those investors don't like what is going on they can get out. The money they spend must be accounted for, they want to be in all the big races, no different then any of us who own horses. Their system is unique and still untested. Last year they gave us all a thrill on BB, maybe they can repeat that this year and take our minds off the problems our economy and country currently face.

I agree with most of that and they do have a right to act anyway they want...however, like in anything, those actions have consequences and we as fans have the right to criticize what we dont like and in their case, their actions often make this possible.....

Getting back to the point of the thread, the only way selling after paying so much seems to make sense would be if Singer made a really dumb, overpriced offer and if he did, good for them.......

onefast99
04-25-2009, 08:40 PM
I laughed.

I guess the new motto they should roll with would be something like this ...

'IEAH ... taking our minds off of all the nations problems since 2008.'
IWR may just do that, you never know.

onefast99
04-25-2009, 08:43 PM
Getting back to the point of the thread, the only way selling after paying so much seems to make sense would be if Singer made a really dumb, overpriced offer and if he did, good for them.......[/QUOTE]
BINGO! How would you like to take your friends and family to the Kentucky Derby, have a part of a horse who has a legit chance to win the race and hobnob with all the fish bowlers for the weekend? All yours for a few million. Please tell me anyone with the money who would say no to this would be nuts.

toussaud
04-25-2009, 10:34 PM
i have a question.

Is it right / normal for Barretts now to be calling IWR a sales graduate when techncially.. he didn't sell?

Dahoss9698
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
Do you think they overpaid for IWR..??

Everyone on this forum needs to understand 2 MAJOR points when it comes to buying and selling Thoroughbreds....

1) This business is NOT like normal business ventures... No one can buy a successful proven racehorse unless they OPEN THEIR CHECKBOOK and PAY UP...
and UP...and UP......
Or else, take your 3, 4, 5 million dollars and buy and breed (like the great Phipps's and Janney's) and see if you can get one of TWENTY (20) horses... AND ONLY TWENTY that can run in the Kentucky Derby... uhhhh.. that's out of roughly 30,000 foals in that calendar year. (you know, kinda like hitting lotto).

They've (IEAH) have taken calculated risks and have done a sensational job.
Everyone is jealous.
They will probably have the favorite in this years Derby, won last years and cashed in on the breeding rights.
What do the other two blue-blood clowns I mentioned above have to show for their 50 million dollar investment??? (A good seat with their blue-blood friends at Churchill).
So tell me....who knows what they're doing... and who doesn't?

In regards to selling a piece 7 days before the dance... no one knows the terms of this sale..... But if someone comes along and wants to possibly stand in the winners circle next Saturday.... they need to pay pay pay up up up..
(Did I say this enough)???
Id bet Singer paid well up for 10% or so... maybe as much as 1-2 million.

2) Re-read point # 1....

Honestly man, it's getting pretty old getting lectured about what you know and what everyone doesn't. Especially from an expert that thinks the 3 year old crop last year was good.

Anyway, I'm not jealous of anyone at IEAH. Why would I be? It's such a lame response when someone criticizes someone. I guess I could say you are jealous of Phipps/Janney, but I won't.

My point here is, they aren't smart business men. They overpaid for most of their horses I think. No, they probably didn't overpay for IWR. But they did for Stardom Bound, Patena, Court Vision, etc. They do a good job of buying themselves into the big races. That's about it. Although how much credit should you get for opening up your checkbook to buy a proven commodity? In your eyes a lot. I tend to disagree, but that's why this is a great game, we all have our opinion.

Bettowin
04-25-2009, 11:22 PM
Coming in late to the discussion and they do probably overpay for racehorses but in the long run are these bad investments? I don't know but what will Stardom Bound's first 2 or 3 foals bring in the ring or at private sales?

I am not even thinking about the "I" group but if you could get enough promising horses in training and get even one to hit like BB you would have year over year money to keep investing. What is BB making per year in the "fun" barn? I don't know but would guess it to be close to $10 million? That buys you a lot of mistakes not to mention the salary of the ringmaster:)

IMO, Mike I's tactics along with his "boiler room" background turns off many long time "horsepeople". I would not invest a penny with him but he did bring another approach to the game.

Dahoss9698
04-25-2009, 11:36 PM
Coming in late to the discussion and they do probably overpay for racehorses but in the long run are these bad investments? I don't know but what will Stardom Bound's first 2 or 3 foals bring in the ring or at private sales?



You bring up a good point. Although I don't think think they bought her with that in mind. They thought she was their Derby horse (another sharp decision). I also wouldn't be surprised if they keep her foals.

Bettowin
04-26-2009, 12:22 AM
You bring up a good point. Although I don't think think they bought her with that in mind. They thought she was their Derby horse (another sharp decision). I also wouldn't be surprised if they keep her foals.

My point is that that the real money to be made in the horseracing game is not on the track.

DrugS
04-26-2009, 12:31 AM
Yeah - they paid $5.7 million for a filly out of a Tarr Road mare that was a 50K yearling. Tarr Road was some plug who raced on the fair circuits in No Cal back in the 80's I believe.

That's not exactly royal breeding ... and though Stardom Bound has all those Gr 1 wins on her resume ... she's only once run a respectable figure ... and it came in the God awful BC Juvie Fillies ... which has been a bigtime negative key race.

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 08:19 AM
Coming in late to the discussion and they do probably overpay for racehorses but in the long run are these bad investments? I don't know but what will Stardom Bound's first 2 or 3 foals bring in the ring or at private sales?

I am not even thinking about the "I" group but if you could get enough promising horses in training and get even one to hit like BB you would have year over year money to keep investing. What is BB making per year in the "fun" barn? I don't know but would guess it to be close to $10 million? That buys you a lot of mistakes not to mention the salary of the ringmaster:)

IMO, Mike I's tactics along with his "boiler room" background turns off many long time "horsepeople". I would not invest a penny with him but he did bring another approach to the game.


Question-you reference BB and his earnings as a stud....they dont own any of his right sanymore, do they? Many times, that is referenced and I think Three Chimneys owns them....

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 08:23 AM
Honestly man, it's getting pretty old getting lectured about what you know and what everyone doesn't. Especially from an expert that thinks the 3 year old crop last year was good.

Anyway, I'm not jealous of anyone at IEAH. Why would I be? It's such a lame response when someone criticizes someone. I guess I could say you are jealous of Phipps/Janney, but I won't.

My point here is, they aren't smart business men. They overpaid for most of their horses I think. No, they probably didn't overpay for IWR. But they did for Stardom Bound, Patena, Court Vision, etc. They do a good job of buying themselves into the big races. That's about it. Although how much credit should you get for opening up your checkbook to buy a proven commodity? In your eyes a lot. I tend to disagree, but that's why this is a great game, we all have our opinion.


Very well said....I often criticize the moves of IEAH and it is usually when someone declares them to be "smart" or "shrewd".....just like the owners of a sports team, IEAH leaders are in a position where their moves are up for scrutiny and part of the fun of the game is analyzing/ criticizing them

toussaud
04-26-2009, 11:17 AM
IEAH still owns 75% of big brown, I believe the deal with 3C was 5 million dollars for 10 percent of him meaning they still own 65% of his stud rights. I think that's right.

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 11:33 AM
IEAH still owns 75% of big brown, I believe the deal with 3C was 5 million dollars for 10 percent of him meaning they still own 65% of his stud rights. I think that's right.


I thought they sold all his breeding rights for 50 million....if so, I think that is split between them and Pompa

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 11:36 AM
IEAH still owns 75% of big brown, I believe the deal with 3C was 5 million dollars for 10 percent of him meaning they still own 65% of his stud rights. I think that's right.


I think they sold all of them....to me, this was a "shrewd" move...they definitely sold high, I think....




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/18/big-browns-breeding-rights-sold-for-about-50m/

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 11:48 AM
IEAH still owns 75% of big brown, I believe the deal with 3C was 5 million dollars for 10 percent of him meaning they still own 65% of his stud rights. I think that's right.

Where was this reported? The T'bred Times and The Blood Horse articles that I justed looked up from last May make no such reference. Not saying you're incorrect, just wondering where you got the info.

According to both publications, BB's breeding rights were valued at an estimated $50 mm. If IEAH sold even 50% of BB to 3Cs, they would have ended up with a roughly $20 mm (adjusted for Paul Pompa's interest) gain less his purchase price, which I don't think has ever been explicitly disclosed. But I've seen estimates that Paul Pompa sold the controlling-interest in BB to IEAH for a few million dollars. So that leaves IEAH with $17 mm to $18 mm pretax gain and a large remaining stake. I suspect the deal wasn't closed until the fall of 2008 in order to qualify the transaction for long-term capital gain treatment (15%*). If you apply that tax rate, IEAH would net about $15 mm (and they'd still hold a large stake in BB's breeding rights - I dont think that's the case, but it would be under this scenario).

In any case, my bet is IEAH was wildly profitable last yr IF you include the capital gains from that transaction. You can make a lot of mistakes when you a buy a horse for a few million dollars and sell him a yr or so later for 10x+ that amount. Was this luck or smarts? If they can repeat the process with multiple purchases, I'll call them smart. For now, I consider them lucky.

*If IEAH is structured as a C-Corp, the capital gain would be taxed at 35%, not 15%.

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 11:53 AM
I think they sold all of them....to me, this was a "shrewd" move...they definitely sold high, I think....




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/18/big-browns-breeding-rights-sold-for-about-50m/

If they sold all of him, their net gain on the sale was probably around $30 mm. Like I said in my last post, that transaction covers up a lot of potential mistakes. Anyone who thinks they're shrewd operators b/c of this one deal should read Nassim Taleb's book "Fooled by Randomness." It has nothing to do with racing, but it applies.

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Where was this reported? The T'bred Times and The Blood Horse articles that I justed looked up from last May make no such reference. Not saying you're incorrect, just wondering where you got the info.

According to both publications, BB's breeding rights were valued at an estimated $50 mm. If IEAH sold even 50% of BB to 3Cs, they would have ended up with a roughly $20 mm (adjusted for Paul Pompa's interest) gain less his purchase price, which I don't think has ever been explicitly disclosed. But I've seen estimates that Paul Pompa sold the controlling-interest in BB to IEAH for a few million dollars. So that leaves IEAH with $17 mm to $18 mm pretax gain and a large remaining stake. I suspect the deal wasn't closed until the fall of 2008 in order to qualify the transaction for long-term capital gain treatment (15%*). If you apply that tax rate, IEAH would net about $15 mm (and they'd still hold a large stake in BB's breeding rights - I dont think that's the case, but it would be under this scenario).

In any case, my bet is IEAH was wildly profitable last yr IF you include the capital gains from that transaction. You can make a lot of mistakes when you a buy a horse for a few million dollars and sell him a yr or so later for 10x+ that amount. Was this luck or smarts? If they can repeat the process with multiple purchases, I'll call them smart. For now, I consider them lucky.

*If IEAH is structured as a C-Corp, the capital gain would be taxed at 35%, not 15%.



Question-how would they still hold a large stake in his breeding rights in a deal for that much money?I am almost positive they sold all the breeding rights right before the Preakness and it was indeed very profitable.....when up at Saratoga last year, I heard many were saying what an insane deal it was for Three Chimneys, as the younger son, I believe, was said to be attempting to make a splash....he did make a splash, for IEAH though:):)....

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 11:58 AM
If they sold all of him, their net gain on the sale was probably around $30 mm. Like I said in my last post, that transaction covers up a lot of potential mistakes. Anyone who thinks they're shrewd operators b/c of this one deal should read Nassim Taleb's book "Fooled by Randomness." It has nothing to do with racing, but it applies.


Trust me-you dont have to sell me on their lack of shrewdness overall....what I find interesting is that with Big Brown, they stuck with their original plan---buy a young, unheralded horse and try to develop it....with Big Brown, they hot the jackpot. I think they have deviated from that plan and completed so irrational purchases just to get in the big races, which I guess they need to do....

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 11:59 AM
Question-how would they still hold a large stake in his breeding rights in a deal for that much money?I am almost positive they sold all the breeding rights right before the Preakness and it was indeed very profitable.....when up at Saratoga last year, I heard many were saying what an insane deal it was for Three Chimneys, as the younger son, I believe, was said to be attempting to make a splash....he did make a splash, for IEAH though:):)....

I think they sold all of him around the time of the Preakness, but I was using 50% for illustrative purposes, showing even if IEAH sold only 50% they recorded a huge capital gain.

What's the latest out of CT?

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 12:04 PM
I think they sold all of him around the time of the Preakness, but I was using 50% for illustrative purposes, showing even if IEAH sold only 50% they recorded a huge capital gain.

What's the latest out of CT?


Yep, they did very, very well on that one...


Not much new at CT...they took a breather after the big race and went back last night.....only notable thing was that Beattie and Cole ran seventh first off the claim which is rare!

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Trust me-you dont have to sell me on their lack of shrewdness overall....what I find interesting is that with Big Brown, they stuck with their original plan---buy a young, unheralded horse and try to develop it....with Big Brown, they hot the jackpot. I think they have deviated from that plan and completed so irrational purchases just to get in the big races, which I guess they need to do....

They're promoters. Think of IEAH as the Donald Trump of the racing world. How many bankruptcies has he or more accurately his organizations been through, yet he's still revered by the general public? Personally I think he's a horrible investor, real estate and otherwise. To be clear, this is an analogy. I am not asserting that the principals at IEAH have been through bankruptcies.

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 12:10 PM
Yep, they did very, very well on that one...


Not much new at CT...they took a breather after the big race and went back last night.....only notable thing was that Beattie and Cole ran seventh first off the claim which is rare!

Was that the horse they took for 4k and put right back in for 4k? On a completely different topic, which I'm sure someone will lecture me on, Delaware Park had a huge opening day crowd yesterday. It was the largest I've ever seen in the seven yrs I've lived in this area. My guess is there were 6k to 7k people there. As I mentioned last week, they once again managed to have concession lines 15 to 25 deep for most of the day. Otherwise, mgt there does an outstanding job. I love the place.

toussaud
04-26-2009, 12:20 PM
no no I remember this and I actually think Im right on this one.


they came out and you have to look at the wording of the deal. the deal was "valued to be 50 million dollar" but only 5 million actual dollars exchanged hands. they sold 10% of their stake in him for 5 million dollars and used that to say that a deal "valued" at 50 million dollars

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/news/story?id=3401194

the key word being "total valued at 50 million dollars".

this wasn't a deal where sheikh mo writes a 51 million dollar check for the horse.

i can't find the article that points it out but the key is tyem being able to say that the "deal is valued at 50 million dollars". they found someone to give them 5 million dollars for 10% of him, not 50% million dollars for the entire horse. Not only that, 3C does not buy stallions outright, never has. they did nto buy war chant out right, they did not buy smarty Jones outright. they buy a percentage of the horse and stand the horse and the owners keep the majority of the horse. I think 3C paid 19 million for half of SmartyJones


to prove the point, look at this article for smarty jones

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=23128


"the total stud deal is valued at being 39 million dollars". they did not pay 39 million dollars for smarty jones, they bought half of him for 19 million dollars.


there was no 50 million dollars exaanged for big brown

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 12:23 PM
no no I remember this and I actually think Im right on this one.


they came out and you have to look at the wording of the deal. the deal was "valued to be 50 million dollar" but only 5 million actual dollars exchanged hands. they sold 10% of their stake in him for 5 million dollars and used that to say that a deal "valued" at 50 million dollars

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/news/story?id=3401194

the key word being "total valued at 50 million dollars".

this wasn't a deal where sheikh mo writes a 51 million dollar check for the horse.

i can't find the article that points it out but the key is tyem being able to say that the "deal is valued at 50 million dollars". they found someone to give them 5 million dollars for 10% of him, not 50% million dollars for the entire horse. Not only that, 3C does not buy stallions outright, never has. they did nto buy war chant out right, they did not buy smarty Jones outright. they buy a percentage of the horse and stand the horse and the owners keep the majority of the horse. I think 3C paid 19 million for half of SmartyJones


to prove the point, look at this article for smarty jones

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=23128


"the total stud deal is valued at being 39 million dollars". they did not pay 39 million dollars for smarty jones, they bought half of him for 19 million dollars.


there was no 50 million dollars exaanged for big brown

I suspect 3Cs didn't cut a check for $50 mm, but it's possible they cut a check for $10 mm and syndicated out the rest, raising the balance from outside parties.

toussaud
04-26-2009, 12:26 PM
no i distintly remember there being an article last year about the 10% of big brown, that is not off the top of my head, becuase there was like a huge uproar about it. I just can't find it and races are about to start today so I can't spend all day looking for it

onefast99
04-26-2009, 12:31 PM
i have a question.

Is it right / normal for Barretts now to be calling IWR a sales graduate when techncially.. he didn't sell?
It's part of the selling game called "no transparency needed"!

onefast99
04-26-2009, 12:38 PM
They're promoters. Think of IEAH as the Donald Trump of the racing world. How many bankruptcies has he or more accurately his organizations been through, yet he's still revered by the general public? Personally I think he's a horrible investor, real estate and otherwise. To be clear, this is an analogy. I am not asserting that the principals at IEAH have been through bankruptcies.
Horrible investor? Ok, he is multi-dimensional, right now he is buying real estae below fair market value once the market comes back he will be sitting with a lot of equity. He works off of the leverage principle, you cannot do that in horse racing it simply doesn't apply!

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 12:40 PM
no i distintly remember there being an article last year about the 10% of big brown, that is not off the top of my head, becuase there was like a huge uproar about it. I just can't find it and races are about to start today so I can't spend all day looking for it

"IEAH became the majority owner of Big Brown after purchasing a 75 percent interest in the colt from Paul Pompa Jr. for a reported $3 million. Big Brown was pulled up around the far turn in the Belmont Stakes and finished last in his Triple Crown bid.

Big Brown was syndicated for a reported $50 million and is standing at Three Chimneys Farm in Lexington, Ky."

AP News Story March 2009

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Horrible investor? Ok, he is multi-dimensional, right now he is buying real estae below fair market value once the market comes back he will be sitting with a lot of equity. He works off of the leverage principle, you cannot do that in horse racing it simply doesn't apply!

Trump works off of the principle that commerical bankers have short memories and they rarely call his bluff. He's been a levered long in the age of leverage (1983 to 2007), turning his father's fortune into an even large fortune, punctuated with several bankruptcies along the way. As for his investment acumen, I laughed last summer when he appeared on CNBC touting his new real estate investments in Russia, saying he'd "love to invest in the United States, but Russia and other emerging market were the place to be." Laughable. He bought the whole global de-coupling theory hook, line and sinker.

I'm sure he's buying real estate now at depressed prices. Big deal. He's always buying real estate whether we're at the top or bottom of a cycle. If you look at his actual record and not his bluster, I don't think it's all that impressive. But like any good snakeoil saleman (my opinion), he has many dutiful beleivers and sycophants praising his every move.

fmolf
04-26-2009, 12:52 PM
still sounds like a ponzi scheme to me!

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2009, 01:03 PM
Horrible investor? Ok, he is multi-dimensional, right now he is buying real estae below fair market value once the market comes back he will be sitting with a lot of equity. He works off of the leverage principle, you cannot do that in horse racing it simply doesn't apply!

Anyway, I addressed the horrible investor part (you may not agree, but I told you my position), not why the Trump analogy applies. I think IEAH and Trump are brilliant marketers (Trump more so), full of bluster and bravado. That's what I was referring to, not the similarity between business models.

onefast99
04-26-2009, 03:36 PM
Anyway, I addressed the horrible investor part (you may not agree, but I told you my position), not why the Trump analogy applies. I think IEAH and Trump are brilliant marketers (Trump more so), full of bluster and bravado. That's what I was referring to, not the similarity between business models.
Sounds fair, just remember right now the banks need Trump more then Trump needs the banks, that is not debateable!

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 09:15 PM
Was that the horse they took for 4k and put right back in for 4k? On a completely different topic, which I'm sure someone will lecture me on, Delaware Park had a huge opening day crowd yesterday. It was the largest I've ever seen in the seven yrs I've lived in this area. My guess is there were 6k to 7k people there. As I mentioned last week, they once again managed to have concession lines 15 to 25 deep for most of the day. Otherwise, mgt there does an outstanding job. I love the place.


It was a 10K filly they ran right back for 10K and ran 7th....I had looked into claiming her too so I dodged a bullet there, I think.....

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 09:20 PM
no no I remember this and I actually think Im right on this one.


they came out and you have to look at the wording of the deal. the deal was "valued to be 50 million dollar" but only 5 million actual dollars exchanged hands. they sold 10% of their stake in him for 5 million dollars and used that to say that a deal "valued" at 50 million dollars

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/news/story?id=3401194

the key word being "total valued at 50 million dollars".

this wasn't a deal where sheikh mo writes a 51 million dollar check for the horse.

i can't find the article that points it out but the key is tyem being able to say that the "deal is valued at 50 million dollars". they found someone to give them 5 million dollars for 10% of him, not 50% million dollars for the entire horse. Not only that, 3C does not buy stallions outright, never has. they did nto buy war chant out right, they did not buy smarty Jones outright. they buy a percentage of the horse and stand the horse and the owners keep the majority of the horse. I think 3C paid 19 million for half of SmartyJones


to prove the point, look at this article for smarty jones

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=23128


"the total stud deal is valued at being 39 million dollars". they did not pay 39 million dollars for smarty jones, they bought half of him for 19 million dollars.


there was no 50 million dollars exaanged for big brown


I think you are off here....google it and everything you see says that breeding rights were sold for 50 million....I believe at the time. IEAH owned 75 percent of BB, Pompa 25....I think that TC paid cash and syndicated the rest....if I am not mistaken, the younger member of the family was doing the business, so things they have done in the past may have gone out the window....the phrase "bought the breeding rights" comes up a lot and shared percentages arent mentioned......

Relwob Owner
04-26-2009, 09:24 PM
They're promoters. Think of IEAH as the Donald Trump of the racing world. How many bankruptcies has he or more accurately his organizations been through, yet he's still revered by the general public? Personally I think he's a horrible investor, real estate and otherwise. To be clear, this is an analogy. I am not asserting that the principals at IEAH have been through bankruptcies.


That is a solid analogy between them and Trump....lots of marketing and hype but the worry that once you start peeling off the banana, you may not like what is inside....

onefast99
04-26-2009, 09:56 PM
That is a solid analogy between them and Trump....lots of marketing and hype but the worry that once you start peeling off the banana, you may not like what is inside....
Think before you type, Trump a horrible investor? He has invested in many things except race horses. He has made a lot of money during his run. BK is a big part of business in a good economy or a bad one, it gives the company a chance to re-negotiate debts and stay in business instead of just folding up and stiffing everyone. Yes it may make bankers think twice about giving the Donald more loans but remember his motto has and always will be location, location, location. Now back to those bananas, you know if you squeeze them hard enough you can make lemonade!

fmolf
04-27-2009, 07:45 AM
maybe Iavarone just likes the spotlight the attention his suntanned face on tv

Relwob Owner
04-27-2009, 10:46 AM
Think before you type, Trump a horrible investor? He has invested in many things except race horses. He has made a lot of money during his run. BK is a big part of business in a good economy or a bad one, it gives the company a chance to re-negotiate debts and stay in business instead of just folding up and stiffing everyone. Yes it may make bankers think twice about giving the Donald more loans but remember his motto has and always will be location, location, location. Now back to those bananas, you know if you squeeze them hard enough you can make lemonade!


I dont quite understand the "think before you type comment"....type of comment used to start a back and forth which I am not into....however, I will comment on your words since you initiated a discussion.....where did I say that Trump is a horrible investor???? nowhere, so I would encourage you to read before you type....


All i said was that Trump is a hype machine, just like IEAH tends to be....I have read every one of Trumps' books and he admits to being a hype machine and that marketing yourself to the tilt is the key....

Also, someone whose entities have been bankrupt as much as his deserves a warning to peel back the banana because many, many of his ventiures have been bad fruit.....

Saratoga_Mike
04-27-2009, 06:37 PM
I dont quite understand the "think before you type comment"....type of comment used to start a back and forth which I am not into....however, I will comment on your words since you initiated a discussion.....where did I say that Trump is a horrible investor???? nowhere, so I would encourage you to read before you type....


All i said was that Trump is a hype machine, just like IEAH tends to be....I have read every one of Trumps' books and he admits to being a hype machine and that marketing yourself to the tilt is the key....

Also, someone whose entities have been bankrupt as much as his deserves a warning to peel back the banana because many, many of his ventiures have been bad fruit.....

You agreed with my comparison between Trump and IEAH. Therefore, the poster apparently assumes you agree with all my positions on Trump, as I previously stated I thought Trump was a horrible investor. I stand by that statement, and I already defended it in some detail. The only confusing part is why you don't agree with all of my opinions!??!!!

Relwob Owner
04-27-2009, 07:53 PM
You agreed with my comparison between Trump and IEAH. Therefore, the poster apparently assumes you agree with all my positions on Trump, as I previously stated I thought Trump was a horrible investor. I stand by that statement, and I already defended it in some detail. The only confusing part is why you don't agree with all of my opinions!??!!!


Ha!!!!! He did blend me in with you....oh well, good company for me....


I am pretty well read on Trump and honestly have no definitive opinion on him.....what I do know is that there have been a bunch of bad investments made on his part....I guess he has had some good ones but a guy like that seems tough to define.....one interesting thing is that he apprently started with a decent amount of dough which leads to what my Dad always tell me....it is easier to hit a homer when you start on third base:)

Saratoga_Mike
04-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Ha!!!!! He did blend me in with you....oh well, good company for me....


I am pretty well read on Trump and honestly have no definitive opinion on him.....what I do know is that there have been a bunch of bad investments made on his part....I guess he has had some good ones but a guy like that seems tough to define.....one interesting thing is that he apprently started with a decent amount of dough which leads to what my Dad always tell me....it is easier to hit a homer when you start on third base:)

Fred Trump, Donald's father, was a successful real estate developer, investor and operator. When he passed away in 1999, he left a reported fortune of between $250 mm and $400 mm to his five children. In the early 1980s, it is my understanding that Donald used his father's name and fortune to launch his own real estate operations. This is one of the reasons I'm not impressed by Trump, the Donald-kind. I prefer people who start with nothing and end up with a lot, but never forget what they started with in the first place. You rarely (define "rarely" as "never" in this case) hear Donald credit his father for anything.

Relwob Owner
04-27-2009, 08:40 PM
Fred Trump, Donald's father, was a successful real estate developer, investor and operator. When he passed away in 1999, he left a reported fortune of between $250 mm and $400 mm to his five children. In the early 1980s, it is my understanding that Donald used his father's name and fortune to launch his own real estate operations. This is one of the reasons I'm not impressed by Trump, the Donald-kind. I prefer people who start with nothing and end up with a lot, but never forget what they started with in the first place. You rarely (define "rarely" as "never" in this case) hear Donald credit his father for anything.


Thought so and no, you dont hear much of anything abt his Dad....I am with you about starting from scratch and so was my Dad and thats why he used that phrase:)


Well, back to IEAH....I still cant get a solid answer on the breeding rights of Big Brown and what they got for him. I was positive it was 50 mil but have heard many differ....50 mil would make sense because if they owned 75 percent, it would explain all the cash they got for their questionable purchases the last year....

CryingForTheHorses
04-27-2009, 08:54 PM
I have to disagree with you Joanie. If I owned a horse with the credentials of IWR and we're a week away from the big one AND he's training well on the Churchill surface.....

If anyone approched me with an offer to buy a piece of my horse, I'm sorry my friend, that train has left the station.

What are you crazy???...1 week away from the derby and you have 2 chances to score big..Hell Id sell the whole horse...You have a better chance makiing the score selling the horse then you do winning the Derby...Beleive it or not,The horses value now is worth more because another person is willing to pay to be in the Derby. IF he flops in the Derby you would get less..

Saratoga_Mike
04-27-2009, 09:12 PM
What are you crazy???...1 week away from the derby and you have 2 chances to score big..Hell Id sell the whole horse...You have a better chance makiing the score selling the horse then you do winning the Derby...Beleive it or not,The horses value now is worth more because another person is willing to pay to be in the Derby. IF he flops in the Derby you would get less..

Stop making sense.

tribecaagent
04-27-2009, 09:24 PM
What are you crazy???...1 week away from the derby and you have 2 chances to score big..Hell Id sell the whole horse...You have a better chance makiing the score selling the horse then you do winning the Derby...Beleive it or not,The horses value now is worth more because another person is willing to pay to be in the Derby. IF he flops in the Derby you would get less..

The last time I checked I wasn't crazy and I'm pretty sure BELIEVE is spelled i-e.....I could be wrong though. As I said, if my horse is thriving in KY prior to the Derby, you better come with an offer I can't refuse. Otherwise, why would I sell ANY piece, if that same piece will be worth 15 times of what its worth now?

Saratoga_Mike
04-27-2009, 09:50 PM
The last time I checked I wasn't crazy and I'm pretty sure BELIEVE is spelled i-e.....I could be wrong though. As I said, if my horse is thriving in KY prior to the Derby, you better come with an offer I can't refuse. Otherwise, why would I sell ANY piece, if that same piece will be worth 15 times of what its worth now?

If you had perfect foresight, you wouldn't sell any part of him. I - and the other poster, I suspect - would sell a minority stake in the horse in order to ensure a huge windfall profit on the horse regardless of the outcome. I doubt you're crazy, just an optimist is my bet.

tribecaagent
04-27-2009, 10:20 PM
If you had perfect foresight, you wouldn't sell any part of him. I - and the other poster, I suspect - would sell a minority stake in the horse in order to ensure a huge windfall profit on the horse regardless of the outcome. I doubt you're crazy, just an optimist is my bet.

Did the "slew crew" sell all or a piece of Seattle Slew?

Did the Chapmans sell all or a piece of Smarty Jones?

Barbaro?

The Lewis'?

Mike Pegram?

IEAH last year with Big Brown?

Answer = No!

They knew they had a VERY good shot. If I knew I had a VERY good shot, I'll hold my position, thank you.

PaceAdvantage
04-28-2009, 05:09 AM
If you really believe that they are clever,you are a clown.

People like the Phipps and their grandchildren will own horses a lot longer than IEAH will be around.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:How exactly does that make the Phipps operation better? Because they have more money? Money that did NOT come from racing horses, but from old old old steel money....you make no sense.

onefast99
04-28-2009, 07:47 AM
I dont quite understand the "think before you type comment"....type of comment used to start a back and forth which I am not into....however, I will comment on your words since you initiated a discussion.....where did I say that Trump is a horrible investor???? nowhere, so I would encourage you to read before you type....


All i said was that Trump is a hype machine, just like IEAH tends to be....I have read every one of Trumps' books and he admits to being a hype machine and that marketing yourself to the tilt is the key....

Also, someone whose entities have been bankrupt as much as his deserves a warning to peel back the banana because many, many of his ventiures have been bad fruit.....
This was directed at Saratoga Mike. The trump analogy is poor, he has no interest in horse racing closest he has is he pals around with Frankie in Florida because they both are real estate investors and Trump needed Stronachs help in selling his Trump Hollywood condo development by making a splash at GP during the 2008 Florida Sunshine Millions. Trump has the wherewithall to get past bad investments, I believe the analogy that Mike was trying to make was that IEAH does also, I may be wrong so I will let Mike tell me if I was.

Relwob Owner
04-28-2009, 08:51 AM
This was directed at Saratoga Mike. The trump analogy is poor, he has no interest in horse racing closest he has is he pals around with Frankie in Florida because they both are real estate investors and Trump needed Stronachs help in selling his Trump Hollywood condo development by making a splash at GP during the 2008 Florida Sunshine Millions. Trump has the wherewithall to get past bad investments, I believe the analogy that Mike was trying to make was that IEAH does also, I may be wrong so I will let Mike tell me if I was.

Guess I got hit with the schrapnel(sp?)....:)


I still think the analogy is pretty on the mark and I would bet that if you asked Iavarone, he would be OK with it.....He is very good at creating hype and getting people to notice and that seems to be a huge part of IEAH....I have posted my take on them many times but only time will tell how their business pans out.

matthewsiv
04-28-2009, 10:13 AM
How exactly does that make the Phipps operation better? Because they have more money? Money that did NOT come from racing horses, but from old old old steel money....you make no sense.

Who said that they are better,what I said is that they will be around a lot longer than IEAH.

But to answer your point,I make the following points.

I do not believe that they have been in trouble with the Stock Exchange.

I do not believe that they have ever been chased for payments by Keeneland.

They use trainers who feed hay and oats!

They conduct themselves in a proper manner,and do not seek national adulation from the press.

They let their horses do the talking.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 06:43 PM
Did the "slew crew" sell all or a piece of Seattle Slew?

Did the Chapmans sell all or a piece of Smarty Jones?

Barbaro?

The Lewis'?

Mike Pegram?

IEAH last year with Big Brown?

Answer = No!

They knew they had a VERY good shot. If I knew I had a VERY good shot, I'll hold my position, thank you.

Ex post facto, my friend. Think about all the horses that have gone into the Derby as legtimate contenders and failed miserably. Should those owners have taken some off the table before the Derby? Absolutely. But maybe we're talking about two different things? I'm talking about the right business decision. You may (?) be just saying the sporting thing to do is roll the dice.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 06:51 PM
This was directed at Saratoga Mike. The trump analogy is poor, he has no interest in horse racing closest he has is he pals around with Frankie in Florida because they both are real estate investors and Trump needed Stronachs help in selling his Trump Hollywood condo development by making a splash at GP during the 2008 Florida Sunshine Millions. Trump has the wherewithall to get past bad investments, I believe the analogy that Mike was trying to make was that IEAH does also, I may be wrong so I will let Mike tell me if I was.

The Trump analogy had NOTHING to do with the industry in which he conducts his business. It had to do with his marketing prowess. That was the comparison to IEAH, plain and simple. I still think Trump is a horrible investor, but we simply disagree. It's an opinion. And, no, I don't think commerical banks need Trump more than he needs them. Unless he's going to provide them with fresh equity capital, he's of no use to them at this point in the cycle.

slewis
04-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Who said that they are better,what I said is that they will be around a lot longer than IEAH.

But to answer your point,I make the following points.

I do not believe that they have been in trouble with the Stock Exchange.

I do not believe that they have ever been chased for payments by Keeneland.

They use trainers who feed hay and oats!

They conduct themselves in a proper manner,and do not seek national adulation from the press.

They let their horses do the talking.

You're either not a day older then 15 yrs old or very very naive.
First, what "stock exchange" is IEAH in trouble with??
Secondly, if you knew anything about anything in this sport (which you dont) you would know about the rigourous scrutiny of information the state of NY (and others) go through when you apply for ANY license to work in the industry. (including FBI and prints)..

Which simply means if you every commit a serious crime (felony, not stealing cookies when mom is in the bathroom, Matt) you wont get an owners license without complete disclosure and a hearing in Albany NY.
Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.

Phipps could never get chased for payments from Keeneland, because he and his pals run the f-in place... oops, sorry, my language to a minor, uhh write a letter to the NYSRWB requesting they revoke my license for cussin at a minor.

Regarding the "hay oats and water" THAT is the ULTIMATE in stupidity....

I know vets who work on their horses and trust me, Shug and his boss do the same work as other trainers do....

Now, shouldn't you be studying for an Algebra test or something??

Relwob Owner
04-28-2009, 08:28 PM
You're either not a day older then 15 yrs old or very very naive.
First, what "stock exchange" is IEAH in trouble with??
Secondly, if you knew anything about anything in this sport (which you dont) you would know about the rigourous scrutiny of information the state of NY (and others) go through when you apply for ANY license to work in the industry. (including FBI and prints)..

Which simply means if you every commit a serious crime (felony, not stealing cookies when mom is in the bathroom, Matt) you wont get an owners license without complete disclosure and a hearing in Albany NY.
Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.

Phipps could never get chased for payments from Keeneland, because he and his pals run the f-in place... oops, sorry, my language to a minor, uhh write a letter to the NYSRWB requesting they revoke my license for cussin at a minor.

Regarding the "hay oats and water" THAT is the ULTIMATE in stupidity....

I know vets who work on their horses and trust me, Shug and his boss do the same work as other trainers do....

Now, shouldn't you be studying for an Algebra test or something??


Slewis,

You and I just broke bread on another thread but I gotta say, man, did you come after this guy or what???? Not gonna debate the points but I gotta tell ya-if you are going to hammer a guy as much as you did and call him stupid, you just cant say Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.....it is "your" and when you do that, you can't blame it on a typo.....

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 08:41 PM
You're either not a day older then 15 yrs old or very very naive.
First, what "stock exchange" is IEAH in trouble with??
Secondly, if you knew anything about anything in this sport (which you dont) you would know about the rigourous scrutiny of information the state of NY (and others) go through when you apply for ANY license to work in the industry. (including FBI and prints)..

Which simply means if you every commit a serious crime (felony, not stealing cookies when mom is in the bathroom, Matt) you wont get an owners license without complete disclosure and a hearing in Albany NY.
Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.

Phipps could never get chased for payments from Keeneland, because he and his pals run the f-in place... oops, sorry, my language to a minor, uhh write a letter to the NYSRWB requesting they revoke my license for cussin at a minor.

Regarding the "hay oats and water" THAT is the ULTIMATE in stupidity....

I know vets who work on their horses and trust me, Shug and his boss do the same work as other trainers do....

Now, shouldn't you be studying for an Algebra test or something??

"Regulators Shut Down Firm

New York-based A.R. Baron pleaded guilty in 1997 to one count of enterprise corruption, a felony. Regulators shut the firm down. Iavarone was not charged with any crimes. While Iavarone initially denied having had any sanctions in his career in the securities industry, he next said he had been fined, censured and suspended from trading by the NASD for 10 days in 1999. The NASD, or National Association of Securities Dealers, a self-regulatory group, merged into the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority in 2007. There were other complaints against Iavarone after he left A.R. Baron." (Source: Bloomberg, May 28, 2008 14:15 EDT)

The NASD is not a stock exchange, but I suspect this is what the other poster was referencing. I'm sure your (sic) aware of the regulatory functions of the NASD/FINRA.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 08:44 PM
How many suspensions has Shug served for drug infractions? Same question for Rick Dutrow. Have a nice night.

matthewsiv
04-28-2009, 08:47 PM
You're either not a day older then 15 yrs old or very very naive.
First, what "stock exchange" is IEAH in trouble with??
Secondly, if you knew anything about anything in this sport (which you dont) you would know about the rigourous scrutiny of information the state of NY (and others) go through when you apply for ANY license to work in the industry. (including FBI and prints)..

Which simply means if you every commit a serious crime (felony, not stealing cookies when mom is in the bathroom, Matt) you wont get an owners license without complete disclosure and a hearing in Albany NY.
Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.

Phipps could never get chased for payments from Keeneland, because he and his pals run the f-in place... oops, sorry, my language to a minor, uhh write a letter to the NYSRWB requesting they revoke my license for cussin at a minor.

Regarding the "hay oats and water" THAT is the ULTIMATE in stupidity....

I know vets who work on their horses and trust me, Shug and his boss do the same work as other trainers do....

Now, shouldn't you be studying for an Algebra test or something??

Now I now that you are a clown.

I am little older than 15 and an owner in New York.

But obviously still naive enough to reply to your rantings!

What do you do in this industry apart from your ramblings on this site?

As I have been in the sport for a while in Europe and in America,I guess I know nothing!

But I do put my money where my mouth is.

I see your language has not improved.

You are just a real class act!

Keep the anger management classes up.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

matthewsiv
04-28-2009, 08:52 PM
"Regulators Shut Down Firm

New York-based A.R. Baron pleaded guilty in 1997 to one count of enterprise corruption, a felony. Regulators shut the firm down. Iavarone was not charged with any crimes. While Iavarone initially denied having had any sanctions in his career in the securities industry, he next said he had been fined, censured and suspended from trading by the NASD for 10 days in 1999. The NASD, or National Association of Securities Dealers, a self-regulatory group, merged into the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority in 2007. There were other complaints against Iavarone after he left A.R. Baron." (Source: Bloomberg, May 28, 2008 14:15 EDT)

The NASD is not a stock exchange, but I suspect this is what the other poster was referencing. I'm sure your (sic) aware of the regulatory functions of the NASD/FINRA.

Sir

Thank you for correcting me,you are 100% CORRECT.

slewis
04-28-2009, 08:55 PM
How many suspensions has Shug served for drug infractions? Same question for Rick Dutrow. Have a nice night.


Shug is the laughing stock of 90% of the trainers in NY.

Would anyone doubt for one second that if you gave his stock over the years to a competent trainer what the results would be?

He and his bosses are constantly crying how everyone is cheating, everyone is drugging, everyone has an edge on them.

Cry cry cry.....

BTW.. Do you really thnk that if Shug were to come uip positive in NY or KY (or anywhere) that it would ever hit the press???
It would be squashed faster then the cars in the parking lot I used to park in WTC 2 on 9/11.

Who controls racing in this country??? wake up!!!

slewis
04-28-2009, 09:02 PM
"Regulators Shut Down Firm

New York-based A.R. Baron pleaded guilty in 1997 to one count of enterprise corruption, a felony. Regulators shut the firm down. Iavarone was not charged with any crimes. While Iavarone initially denied having had any sanctions in his career in the securities industry, he next said he had been fined, censured and suspended from trading by the NASD for 10 days in 1999. The NASD, or National Association of Securities Dealers, a self-regulatory group, merged into the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority in 2007. There were other complaints against Iavarone after he left A.R. Baron." (Source: Bloomberg, May 28, 2008 14:15 EDT)

The NASD is not a stock exchange, but I suspect this is what the other poster was referencing. I'm sure your (sic) aware of the regulatory functions of the NASD/FINRA.


Good job... I see you know how to use google...

Now pass the 8 hours in securities exams I did and you might have a clue what your talking about.

The rules in the securities industry are pretty strigent.. they are designed that way to protect investors...
Now I want you to read this VERY SLOWLY... so you understand.

THESE RULES ARE STRETCHED AND BROKEN EVERY DAY BY VIRTUALLY EVERY FIRM..

Do you understand this?? When I was a principal at a firm, our laywers explained to me that it's easier to admit guilt and settle with clients then to go through the hassle of arbitration.. I dont know the particulars of the case... but if were REMOTELY serious, the DA would be involved and IVARONE would never be in horse racing.

Wall St class is over... lets get back to horse racing.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:03 PM
"BTW.. Do you really thnk that if Shug were to come uip positive in NY or KY (or anywhere) that it would ever hit the press???
It would be squashed faster then the cars in the parking lot I used to park in WTC 2 on 9/11. Who controls racing in this country??? wake up!!!"

This post seems inconsistent with your prior rant - I mean post - where you assured us that NY had a rigorous racing regulatory body in place. Which is it? Oh, they're rigorous in the licensing process, but post-race positives aren't treated seriously. This is quite an education for us rubes.

Relwob Owner
04-28-2009, 09:03 PM
Shug is the laughing stock of 90% of the trainers in NY.

Would anyone doubt for one second that if you gave his stock over the years to a competent trainer what the results would be?

He and his bosses are constantly crying how everyone is cheating, everyone is drugging, everyone has an edge on them.

Cry cry cry.....

BTW.. Do you really thnk that if Shug were to come uip positive in NY or KY (or anywhere) that it would ever hit the press???
It would be squashed faster then the cars in the parking lot I used to park in WTC 2 on 9/11.

Who controls racing in this country??? wake up!!!


Wow Slewis...I cant disagree with you more regarding your earlier response about that guy's points....however, now that you direct it towards Shug, I gotta speak up and agree with you.....I have wondered for the last 10 years if there is a more overrated presence in horse racing..... some of the other trainers who have fallen off the map get fried and Shug gets nothing..he has access to the owners with the most money and he has produced amazingly little and never gets held accountable for it...

As far as who controls racing, I assume you are referring to Phipps....those more in the know than me are of the opinion that Phipps conveys the notion that they support all of the rules, etc but when it comes down to it, have no care at all for anything other than the regally bread horses they are accustomed to.....

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:07 PM
Good job... I see you know how to use google...

Now pass the 8 hours in securities exams I did and you might have a clue what your talking about.

The rules in the securities industry are pretty strigent.. they are designed that way to protect investors...
Now I want you to read this VERY SLOWLY... so you understand.

THESE RULES ARE STRETCHED AND BROKEN EVERY DAY BY VIRTUALLY EVERY FIRM..

Do you understand this?? When I was a principal at a firm, our laywers explained to me that it's easier to admit guilt and settle with clients then to go through the hassle of arbitration.. I dont know the particulars of the case... but if were REMOTELY serious, the DA would be involved and IVARONE would never be in horse racing.

Wall St class is over... lets get back to horse racing.

Do you really want to debate me on securities law? As for the Series 7, which I assume you're refering to in your post, I passed it yrs ago. It is possible - I know this is remote in your mind - that you don't know everything.

slewis
04-28-2009, 09:09 PM
Slewis,

You and I just broke bread on another thread but I gotta say, man, did you come after this guy or what???? Not gonna debate the points but I gotta tell ya-if you are going to hammer a guy as much as you did and call him stupid, you just cant say Obviously, you're "stock exchange" direct wasn't serious in nature enough to keep Iavarone from obtaining proper credientials.....it is "your" and when you do that, you can't blame it on a typo.....


Stop reminding me of my grammar, please... many a HS english class was spent at Belmont Park. At least my fractions are solid... 22 and 3.. 45 and 2..

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:12 PM
Wow Slewis...I cant disagree with you more regarding your earlier response about that guy's points....however, now that you direct it towards Shug, I gotta speak up and agree with you.....I have wondered for the last 10 years if there is a more overrated presence in horse racing..... some of the other trainers who have fallen off the map get fried and Shug gets nothing..he has access to the owners with the most money and he has produced amazingly little and never gets held accountable for it...

As far as who controls racing, I assume you are referring to Phipps....those more in the know than me are of the opinion that Phipps conveys the notion that they support all of the rules, etc but when it comes down to it, have no care at all for anything other than the regally bread horses they are accustomed to.....

I still think of Easy Goer and what could have been...

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:13 PM
Stop reminding me of my grammar, please... many a HS english class was spent at Belmont Park. At least my fractions are solid... 22 and 3.. 45 and 2..

I like this lighter side of you - that was actually funny.

Relwob Owner
04-28-2009, 09:15 PM
Stop reminding me of my grammar, please... many a HS english class was spent at Belmont Park. At least my fractions are solid... 22 and 3.. 45 and 2..


I gotcha....I do think you need to work on constructing more controversial posts...noone seems to react to them:):)

slewis
04-28-2009, 09:28 PM
Do you really want to debate me on securities law? As for the Series 7, which I assume you're refering to in your post, I passed it yrs ago. It is possible - I know this is remote in your mind - that you don't know everything.

Mike,

If what your saying is true (and I see no reason to doubt it) why are you defending what matt is saying??

You know how the game is played.. and the role of the SEC /NASD/FINA...

(and who funds them)

You know everything I said is factual, regarding IAVARONE. If you dont care for IEAH or IAVARONE you are free to feel that way... But what you have just done is pick a fight with me on an issue which you know is a non issue.

Sounds like you have a problem with me.. regardless of what side of the arguement Im on...

Another tough guy hiding behind his keyboard...

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:40 PM
Mike,

If what your saying is true (and I see no reason to doubt it) why are you defending what matt is saying??

You know how the game is played.. and the role of the SEC /NASD/FINA...

(and who funds them)

You know everything I said is factual, regarding IAVARONE. If you dont care for IEAH or IAVARONE you are free to feel that way... But what you have just done is pick a fight with me on an issue which you know is a non issue.

Sounds like you have a problem with me.. regardless of what side of the arguement Im on...

Another tough guy hiding behind his keyboard...

Where did your lighter side go? Matt indicated Iavarone had a problem with a stock exchange. All I said was he meant Iavarone had been sanctioned by the NASD/FINRA, which Matt later said was indeed his point. I never disputed the rigor of the licensing process. I think you're reading more into my posts than is really there. Why did I bring up the sanction? Because your post to Matt was over the top, comparing him to a 15-yr-old kid. I just thought it needed some balance.

Personally I don't care for Iavorone. However, I never questioned whether he should have an owner's license or not.

onefast99
04-28-2009, 09:52 PM
The Trump analogy had NOTHING to do with the industry in which he conducts his business. It had to do with his marketing prowess. That was the comparison to IEAH, plain and simple. I still think Trump is a horrible investor, but we simply disagree. It's an opinion. And, no, I don't think commerical banks need Trump more than he needs them. Unless he's going to provide them with fresh equity capital, he's of no use to them at this point in the cycle.
He is someone that a bank will do business with on REO's. His ability to take a property and increase its value is his fortay. I know we disagree about his investment angles but he is still looked at as a savy investor. I felt your analogy was in part based on the ability of IEAH to take a few financial hits as does the Donald. I guess I mis-read it, but if in fact that is what you meant it was an excellent analogy.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 09:58 PM
He is someone that a bank will do business with on REO's. His ability to take a property and increase its value is his fortay. I know we disagree about his investment angles but he is still looked at as a savy investor. I felt your analogy was in part based on the ability of IEAH to take a few financial hits as does the Donald. I guess I mis-read it, but if in fact that is what you meant it was an excellent analogy.

Got it.

onefast99
04-28-2009, 09:58 PM
Good job... I see you know how to use google...

Now pass the 8 hours in securities exams I did and you might have a clue what your talking about.

The rules in the securities industry are pretty strigent.. they are designed that way to protect investors...
Now I want you to read this VERY SLOWLY... so you understand.

THESE RULES ARE STRETCHED AND BROKEN EVERY DAY BY VIRTUALLY EVERY FIRM..

Do you understand this?? When I was a principal at a firm, our laywers explained to me that it's easier to admit guilt and settle with clients then to go through the hassle of arbitration.. I dont know the particulars of the case... but if were REMOTELY serious, the DA would be involved and IVARONE would never be in horse racing.

Wall St class is over... lets get back to horse racing.
I guess Madoff found the 50b loophole. The SEC had plenty to go on, and if they really had a set of nuts they would of put transparency on hedge funds 15 years ago. What Mike did was petty and it has no bearing whatsoever on IEAH or its investors.

slewis
04-28-2009, 10:27 PM
Where did your lighter side go? Matt indicated Iavarone had a problem with a stock exchange. All I said was he meant Iavarone had been sanctioned by the NASD/FINRA, which Matt later said was indeed his point. I never disputed the rigor of the licensing process. I think you're reading more into my posts than is really there. Why did I bring up the sanction? Because your post to Matt was over the top, comparing him to a 15-yr-old kid. I just thought it needed some balance.

Personally I don't care for Iavorone. However, I never questioned whether he should have an owner's license or not.

I do have a lighter side.... as everyone who reads my posts knows...

But I would much rather you use your knowledge and experience to make a fair point and not to defend someone who makes a poor one, especially when that person did nothing more than character bashing... (which is ok too, but dont say it in a way that IAVARONE is doing something illegal.

If you go back to post # 47... Matt in is his wisdom tells me I wouldn't have a job if not for the Phipps family.... Is that a joke..insult or both??

In post # 77 you stated you're opinion of IEAH vs Trump as being "promoters".
Maybe ever so slightly, but I will debate this statement in that with Trump, your buying property as an investment or to live ot both.

It is truly an investment..... (not always successful, but an investment)

If IEAH is promoting their operation as an investment, you know they must FULLY disclose the ENORMOUS risks in this business and that 98% of owners lose money, therefore, investors will too.
I doubt very very much Mike, that IEAH attorney's would allow any such suggestion in a prospectus..

I will ask MIke Scharack when I see him in at the derby as he handles much of this.. but I dont think they "promote" that way.

Their idea is to try to obtain powerful proven racing stock and to give "investors" bang for their buck.

Like em' or hate them.. They are kicking ass, regardless of what others have posted here with the bad purchases. Many who knock them have never bought or sold a horse in their lives and dont know the risks....


Then in post #104 .. you hit the nail on the head regarding "perfect forsight".

Who has "perfect forsight"?? No one. A week before the Ill derby we came close to selling Musket Man.. We had our price and went from there.....

He's obviously worth more today...

Did I know what the results in ILL would be??? Did Iavarone know after the Gotham how he'd run in the Wood??? Or how good Big Brown would become??

Many on this board think it's easy... they better hope they never get the chance to find out out easy it really is...NT.

Saratoga_Mike
04-28-2009, 10:42 PM
Then in post #104 .. you hit the nail on the head regarding "perfect forsight".

Who has "perfect forsight"?? No one. A week before the Ill derby we came close to selling Musket Man.. We had our price and went from there.....

He's obviously worth more today...

Did I know what the results in ILL would be??? Did Iavarone know after the Gotham how he'd run in the Wood??? Or how good Big Brown would become??

Many on this board think it's easy... they better hope they never get the chance to find out out easy it really is...NT.

Good luck to you in your Derby endeavors.

Relwob Owner
04-28-2009, 10:45 PM
I do have a lighter side.... as everyone who reads my posts knows...

But I would much rather you use your knowledge and experience to make a fair point and not to defend someone who makes a poor one, especially when that person did nothing more than character bashing... (which is ok too, but dont say it in a way that IAVARONE is doing something illegal.

If you go back to post # 47... Matt in is his wisdom tells me I wouldn't have a job if not for the Phipps family.... Is that a joke..insult or both??

In post # 77 you stated you're opinion of IEAH vs Trump as being "promoters".
Maybe ever so slightly, but I will debate this statement in that with Trump, your buying property as an investment or to live ot both.

It is truly an investment..... (not always successful, but an investment)

If IEAH is promoting their operation as an investment, you know they must FULLY disclose the ENORMOUS risks in this business and that 98% of owners lose money, therefore, investors will too.
I doubt very very much Mike, that IEAH attorney's would allow any such suggestion in a prospectus..

I will ask MIke Scharack when I see him in at the derby as he handles much of this.. but I dont think they "promote" that way.

Their idea is to try to obtain powerful proven racing stock and to give "investors" bang for their buck.

Like em' or hate them.. They are kicking ass, regardless of what others have posted here with the bad purchases. Many who knock them have never bought or sold a horse in their lives and dont know the risks....


Then in post #104 .. you hit the nail on the head regarding "perfect forsight".

Who has "perfect forsight"?? No one. A week before the Ill derby we came close to selling Musket Man.. We had our price and went from there.....

He's obviously worth more today...

Did I know what the results in ILL would be??? Did Iavarone know after the Gotham how he'd run in the Wood??? Or how good Big Brown would become??

Many on this board think it's easy... they better hope they never get the chance to find out out easy it really is...NT.


Slewis,

Question for ya that I have tried to get answered a million times in other threads....IEAH did get 75 percent of 50 mil for Big Brown's breeding rights, correct? if you or anyone else knows the specifics for sure, please let me know....


As far as IEAH goes, his comments do seem to promote the venture as a way to make money and claim their way makes it more possible but I am sure there is a ton of CYA verbiage in their documentationthat covers things....


I have no problem questioning their moves and have fun doing it.....that doesnt mean I dont know how hard it is but I think that while they struck gold with BB, their moves the last year give cause for concern.....I also have no idea why they would give Gary Stevens the kind of responsibilities that their web site says he has but that is just my opinion.....I will give them credit when they score and question moves that I think will result in their failure, just like all owners of sports teams are under a similar microscope.

Lastly, I have gotten over Iavarone's past....sadly enough, I am so used to people with shady pasts being in high profile positions that I dont even think his are blips on the radar anymore....

slewis
04-28-2009, 11:06 PM
Slewis,

Question for ya that I have tried to get answered a million times in other threads....IEAH did get 75 percent of 50 mil for Big Brown's breeding rights, correct? if you or anyone else knows the specifics for sure, please let me know....


As far as IEAH goes, his comments do seem to promote the venture as a way to make money and claim their way makes it more possible but I am sure there is a ton of CYA verbiage in their documentationthat covers things....


I have no problem questioning their moves and have fun doing it.....that doesnt mean I dont know how hard it is but I think that while they struck gold with BB, their moves the last year give cause for concern.....I also have no idea why they would give Gary Stevens the kind of responsibilities that their web site says he has but that is just my opinion.....I will give them credit when they score and question moves that I think will result in their failure, just like all owners of sports teams are under a similar microscope.

Lastly, I have gotten over Iavarone's past....sadly enough, I am so used to people with shady pasts being in high profile positions that I dont even think his are blips on the radar anymore....

Rel,

I am relatively new to certain aspects of this sport...since I've never had (even close) a horse that a farm would want to syndicate.

If I had to guess I would say everything is negotiable and both sides probably did just that... and came up with a deal... If I were an owner of a stallion a farm wanted to syndicate I would want a solid cash deal with no incentives for performance over time etc... My risk should end when my horses crosses the finish line first many times..... Next is the risk the farm needs to take.

Of course it takes 4 yrs of breeding before we know what a sire's status will be and many many millions can be made before the "cat's out of the bag".

Funny you asked because I have a broodmare thats a great cross to BB and I inquired about him today......

PaceAdvantage
04-30-2009, 03:20 AM
Humans are indeed a curious lot. Ivarone got slapped on the wrist for 10 days and people constantly cite this as some sort of horror show....Dutow was painted as some sort of evil mastermind, and another reason given to hope that Big Brown finished up the track...another reason to wish IEAH the worst possible luck....meanwhile....

a nice little chunk of Curlin's ownership group was sitting in prison awaiting trial on some serious shit, and you never ever heard that brought up as some sort of reason to root against Curlin...Asmussen was for a time the poster boy of cheating trainers and you never heard here on PaceAdvantage how people were rooting against Curlin because Steve A. was his trainer...

As I said, humans are indeed a curious lot...

rastajenk
04-30-2009, 07:03 AM
Maybe not here on the ol' PA, but anti-Curlinism was surely out there on other sites. Final Turn was one, for sure.

Relwob Owner
04-30-2009, 07:37 AM
Humans are indeed a curious lot. Ivarone got slapped on the wrist for 10 days and people constantly cite this as some sort of horror show....Dutow was painted as some sort of evil mastermind, and another reason given to hope that Big Brown finished up the track...another reason to wish IEAH the worst possible luck....meanwhile....

a nice little chunk of Curlin's ownership group was sitting in prison awaiting trial on some serious shit, and you never ever heard that brought up as some sort of reason to root against Curlin...Asmussen was for a time the poster boy of cheating trainers and you never heard here on PaceAdvantage how people were rooting against Curlin because Steve A. was his trainer...

As I said, humans are indeed a curious lot...


PA-

Good point abt Curlin....Asmussen and his owners were actually a big reason(and the fact that like you, I thought he was overrated) that I didnt get behind him as much.....


Iavarone's 10 days arent the only reaosn people are suspicious....their first trainer got busted for milkshakes, Iavarone has little job history for a period of time for "confidentiality reasons", Iavarone had a questionable incident at Keeneland and didnt pay over 500K over a dispute and he also had a bad check incident in AC.....I know you play Devils's Advocate but the above incidents seem like more than enough reason for people to be wary....however, as you point out, there is reason to be wary of a ton of other things/people in the sport lately...

Also, people's dislike of Iavarone is just plain human nature. When someone new comes on the scene and portrays that they have all the answers and have come up with a new way of doing things(which is how Iavarone can come off at times) of course those who have been in that sport for a long time may not like that person....that isnt that odd or surprising to me at all.

On the positive side, though, at least Iavarone and his group give us all something to talk about. They seem to be always in on things and taking shots and that, to me, is good for the game....them being in a younger demographic doesnt hurt either in terms of where our game is and where it is gpoing(or not going)....

I know you have supported Dutrow but he is one guy I cant get behind....last year, he had the chance to step out so much and he just handled everything with so little class IMHO....talked trash about other horses in a non joking way and just came across as boorish and miserable....just my opinion and I dont know the guy but he just disappointed me a bit.

slewis
04-30-2009, 09:20 AM
Humans are indeed a curious lot. Ivarone got slapped on the wrist for 10 days and people constantly cite this as some sort of horror show....Dutow was painted as some sort of evil mastermind, and another reason given to hope that Big Brown finished up the track...another reason to wish IEAH the worst possible luck....meanwhile....

a nice little chunk of Curlin's ownership group was sitting in prison awaiting trial on some serious shit, and you never ever heard that brought up as some sort of reason to root against Curlin...Asmussen was for a time the poster boy of cheating trainers and you never heard here on PaceAdvantage how people were rooting against Curlin because Steve A. was his trainer...

As I said, humans are indeed a curious lot...

Yeah,

Like Tim Geithner as treasury secretary and his reluctance to contribute to the very department he now heads.:lol:

I think as we grow older we realize there are more skeletons in every closet then the apperel they were designed for.

onefast99
04-30-2009, 12:15 PM
Yeah,

Like Tim Geithner as treasury secretary and his reluctance to contribute to the very department he now heads.:lol:

I think as we grow older we realize there are more skeletons in every closet then the apperel they were designed for.
How many people do you think will jump on the IEAH bandwagon should IWR win on Saturday, as many as BB? Like several have said here already Mike was the new kid on the block I believe he has handled himself very well in a game full of cut throats and cheats he has become a good spokesman for their group.

Saratoga_Mike
04-30-2009, 06:06 PM
Humans are indeed a curious lot. Ivarone got slapped on the wrist for 10 days and people constantly cite this as some sort of horror show....Dutow was painted as some sort of evil mastermind, and another reason given to hope that Big Brown finished up the track...another reason to wish IEAH the worst possible luck....meanwhile....

a nice little chunk of Curlin's ownership group was sitting in prison awaiting trial on some serious shit, and you never ever heard that brought up as some sort of reason to root against Curlin...Asmussen was for a time the poster boy of cheating trainers and you never heard here on PaceAdvantage how people were rooting against Curlin because Steve A. was his trainer...

As I said, humans are indeed a curious lot...

"Iavarone got slapped on the wrist for 10 days and ..." Typically the phrase "slapped on the wrist" is used by someone who thinks the penalty was far too light. I assume you didn't mean it in that context?

Dutrow as "evil mastermind" - Mr. Dutrow has been cited with how many racing-related drug infractions in his career?

As for the Asmussen comparison, here's the difference: in my OPINION, most people think Rick Dutrow is fairly classless (supporting evidence for the opinion - his many classless statements around last yr's Derby about other trainers - namely, Gary Contessa and John Servis). On a personal level, I suspect most people aren't as turned off, if at all, by Asmussen. Ergo, there isn't really anything curious about why people would root against a Dutrow trainee and back a Asmussen contender.

toussaud
04-30-2009, 06:19 PM
I'm pretty young but if I am not mistaken, didnt' affirmed's owner like, do federal prison time before he owned affirmed? yet you hardly ever hear that mentioned. it just goes to show, horse racing fans are alot like political party members. they find the party (or horse) they like and then use what information they can to back that up and spin it to whatever way they see to fit their needs

Saratoga_Mike
04-30-2009, 06:25 PM
Jess Jackson was the majority owner of Curlin, so to most of the public, he was viewed as "the" owner. The phen-phen (do I have the right case?) lawyers were never really heard from on big racing days. Once again, there's a personality comparison: Jess Jackson vs. Michael Ivarone. In my opinion, Mr. Jackson is much more well liked by general racing fans, for obvious reasons, in my opinion.

slewis
04-30-2009, 06:35 PM
How many people do you think will jump on the IEAH bandwagon should IWR win on Saturday, as many as BB? Like several have said here already Mike was the new kid on the block I believe he has handled himself very well in a game full of cut throats and cheats he has become a good spokesman for their group.

You know what.... Im gonna open Pandoras box and see what's inside...

Im about to make one of the most controversial statements I've ever made on this forum.... (then Im gonna back my suitcase for Louisville...)

Sport and business and the business of sport are FULL of cut throats and cheats.. It's almost become the American way..... and in a perverse way, it's ok by me..... If the racing industry cant catch those perceived as cheats actually cheating....then I have a choice... I can eat it.. or get out of the game...
That's case # 1 ... I applaude the high percentage trainers who get the job done...
That too is the American way......

NOW....if the powers that control racing at this time, had any balls... which they dont... THEN (and here is where I'm gonna cause a ruckus...)......

Why not have a real close look and investigation, not into Rick Dutrow or Steve Assmussen....
Why not into the Arabs that dump 100's of $$$$$llions into the sport?
I would bet ANYTHING a simple investigation would find their businesses, contributions, funding have ties-to or some connection to..terrorist overtures.

Would anyone be willing to book against that action???
Do you know why no such investigation would occur???

I once asked a very very very prominient trainer (shortly after 9/11) "How can you train for these guys when deep down inside you know in some way shape or form their money is funding the machine whose ideology is to take apart the very system you (supposedly) are loyal to... this country...

His reply... "If I dont train for them, someone else will".....

Like I said... It's all "The (new) American Way".

PS.... I have to get to the airport 1 1/2 hours prior to my flight.. you know.. for security.. It's so great being "free" in the "new America".

toussaud
04-30-2009, 06:42 PM
http://thx1138.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/800-lb.jpg

verizonman
04-30-2009, 07:53 PM
You know what.... Im gonna open Pandoras box and see what's inside...

Im about to make one of the most controversial statements I've ever made on this forum.... (then Im gonna back my suitcase for Louisville...)

Sport and business and the business of sport are FULL of cut throats and cheats.. It's almost become the American way..... and in a perverse way, it's ok by me..... If the racing industry cant catch those perceived as cheats actually cheating....then I have a choice... I can eat it.. or get out of the game...
That's case # 1 ... I applaude the high percentage trainers who get the job done...
That too is the American way......

NOW....if the powers that control racing at this time, had any balls... which they dont... THEN (and here is where I'm gonna cause a ruckus...)......
Why not have a real close look and investigation, not into Rick Dutrow or Steve Assmussen....
Why not into the Arabs that dump 100's of $$$$$llions into the sport?
I would bet ANYTHING a simple investigation would find their businesses, contributions, funding have ties-to or some connection to..terrorist overtures.

Would anyone be willing to book against that action???
Do you know why no such investigation would occur???

I once asked a very very very prominient trainer (shortly after 9/11) "How can you train for these guys when deep down inside you know in some way shape or form their money is funding the machine whose ideology is to take apart the very system you (supposedly) are loyal to... this country...

His reply... "If I dont train for them, someone else will".....

Like I said... It's all "The (new) American Way".

PS.... I have to get to the airport 1 1/2 hours prior to my flight.. you know.. for security.. It's so great being "free" in the "new America".

Highly insulting to the Arab community, did not think this was the place for racial typecasting. So you think because they are Arabs you can autolink them to terrorism?
I would think PA would take a long look at your racial overtures and rule you off just as he did for the poster who made the racial remarks about ken Rudolph. PA , I think it was a lifetime banishment for the posters comment about Rudolph. Slewis makes him look like an angel.

PaceAdvantage
04-30-2009, 07:58 PM
I would think PA would take a long look at your racial overtures and rule you off just as he did for the poster who made the racial remarks about ken Rudolph. PA , I think it was a lifetime banishment for the posters comment about Rudolph. Slewis makes him look like an angel.You need to read a little more effectively. There are many errors in what you just typed.

And "first time" posters should really never make their first post a "board cop" post. It just completely fails the smell test.

verizonman
04-30-2009, 08:21 PM
You need to read a little more effectively. There are many errors in what you just typed.
Maybe , One error I did not make is his racial typecast of Arabs , Why you would let such a statement to be printed? Not sure why you choose to chalk it up to ineffective reading on my part. Can I deduce that you feel the same as Slewis , about the Arab community? Why are his overtures not treated the same as Thruncy. It is clear you have different rules for this poster, your partisan judgement is very unproffessional. I am sure you will try another spin job on this ,to protect him ,Good Luck!!!

onefast99
04-30-2009, 08:58 PM
You know what.... Im gonna open Pandoras box and see what's inside...

Im about to make one of the most controversial statements I've ever made on this forum.... (then Im gonna back my suitcase for Louisville...)

Sport and business and the business of sport are FULL of cut throats and cheats.. It's almost become the American way..... and in a perverse way, it's ok by me..... If the racing industry cant catch those perceived as cheats actually cheating....then I have a choice... I can eat it.. or get out of the game...
That's case # 1 ... I applaude the high percentage trainers who get the job done...
That too is the American way......

NOW....if the powers that control racing at this time, had any balls... which they dont... THEN (and here is where I'm gonna cause a ruckus...)......

Why not have a real close look and investigation, not into Rick Dutrow or Steve Assmussen....
Why not into the Arabs that dump 100's of $$$$$llions into the sport?
I would bet ANYTHING a simple investigation would find their businesses, contributions, funding have ties-to or some connection to..terrorist overtures.

Would anyone be willing to book against that action???
Do you know why no such investigation would occur???

I once asked a very very very prominient trainer (shortly after 9/11) "How can you train for these guys when deep down inside you know in some way shape or form their money is funding the machine whose ideology is to take apart the very system you (supposedly) are loyal to... this country...

His reply... "If I dont train for them, someone else will".....

Like I said... It's all "The (new) American Way".

PS.... I have to get to the airport 1 1/2 hours prior to my flight.. you know.. for security.. It's so great being "free" in the "new America".
I won't go near the reference to the arab community and terrorism, but your comments on the cheaters in the game are correct, the system allows for this just like major league baseball allowed certain players to take PED's.

slewis
04-30-2009, 09:31 PM
Maybe , One error I did not make is his racial typecast of Arabs , Why you would let such a statement to be printed? Not sure why you choose to chalk it up to ineffective reading on my part. Can I deduce that you feel the same as Slewis , about the Arab community? Why are his overtures not treated the same as Thruncy. "Phipps is a big fat shit" Why would you let him post comments like that? Anyone else put something up like that you would ban instantly. It is clear you have different rules for this poster, your partisan judgement is very unproffessional. I am sure you will try another spin job on this ,to protect him ,Good Luck!!!

Maybe PA appreciates the fact that I have the balls to tell it like it is....

It's my belief tht Phipps and Janney's actions are a cleverly orchestrated plan to control racing and keep the rules within THEIR control. If you dont believe they use their wealth and influence to do so, your entitled to your opinion.. but the facts are evident.

Maybe you should read the expose written by The Paulick report.... and that's what they, as journalist are permitted to write.

As far as the Arab community goes... if they get offended by me suggesting that sheik money will in one shape or form will find terrorists hands, too bad.

It's a FACT that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, our supposed friends, there are many schools still teaching anti-semetic propaganda.

Anyone who knows me knows that I dont have a prejudiced bone in my body, but when there are obvious double standards setforth by those that are supposedly our "friends". I have a big problem...

It's amazing that if one wants to get a racing owners license in the state of NY, a long vetting process takes place...
In this particular case, because of the huge sums of money involved, it's "see no evil, hear no evil".

If I've insulted the Royal Saudi family.... Too bad.

PaceAdvantage
05-01-2009, 02:37 AM
Why are his overtures not treated the same as Thruncy.First off, thruncy was NEVER banned. That was your first mistake.

Second, the slewis theory that perhaps a portion (no matter how small) of all the money floating around the wealthy horse buying sheiks can be traced back to some sort of terrorist funding is not anything anyone hasn't heard before. And it's not something that takes much stretch of the imagination to believe.

These guys are awash with money, and so are lots of members of their extended family. To think that not a penny of that money falls into unsavory hands is unrealistic.

He didn't state all Arabs are terrorists or anything of the sort. You're looking for trouble in post #1 on this board...not a good sign.

And as for the name calling of certain prominent members of the racing community, you're right, that's a little over the top. I am going to edit out those comments. Thanks for pointing them out.

Finally, I don't appreciate your tone, especially for a newbie. Unprofessional am I? Really now. I'm going to "spin" it again, am I?

Interesting choice of words for a newbie who shouldn't have much of an axe to grind with anyone. My guess is you've been around this block before. If I'm unprofessional in any area, it's in letting certain individuals get away with registering over and over again.

verizonman
05-01-2009, 07:12 AM
First off, thruncy was NEVER banned. That was your first mistake.

Second, the slewis theory that perhaps a portion (no matter how small) of all the money floating around the wealthy horse buying sheiks can be traced back to some sort of terrorist funding is not anything anyone hasn't heard before. And it's not something that takes much stretch of the imagination to believe.

These guys are awash with money, and so are lots of members of their extended family. To think that not a penny of that money falls into unsavory hands is unrealistic.

He didn't state all Arabs are terrorists or anything of the sort. You're looking for trouble in post #1 on this board...not a good sign.

And as for the name calling of certain prominent members of the racing community, you're right, that's a little over the top. I am going to edit out those comments. Thanks for pointing them out.

Finally, I don't appreciate your tone, especially for a newbie. Unprofessional am I? Really now. I'm going to "spin" it again, am I?

Interesting choice of words for a newbie who shouldn't have much of an axe to grind with anyone. My guess is you've been around this block before. If I'm unprofessional in any area, it's in letting certain individuals get away with registering over and over again.

Thanks for lending credence to my thoughts. Stop with the newbie stuff, obviously I have been here before, wont be back. You are uncanny in steering away from the issues. You are always talking about the smell test, You have failed miserably at it. When you stop defending and start doing your job( taking issue with slewis who you let constantly bash other posters as well as his racial and vulgar slurs )maybe then you will gain some credability with posters. You see PA , you are not as slick as you pretend to be, I for one am on to your phony act!!!!!

verizonman
05-01-2009, 07:31 AM
Maybe PA appreciates the fact that I have the balls to tell it like it is....

It's my belief tht Phipps and Janney's actions are a cleverly orchestrated plan to control racing and keep the rules within THEIR control. If you dont believe they use their wealth and influence to do so, your entitled to your opinion.. but the facts are evident.

Maybe you should read the expose written by The Paulick report.... and that's what they, as journalist are permitted to write.

As far as the Arab community goes... if they get offended by me suggesting that sheik money will in one shape or form will find terrorists hands, too bad.

It's a FACT that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, our supposed friends, there are many schools still teaching anti-semetic propaganda.

Anyone who knows me knows that I dont have a prejudiced bone in my body, but when there are obvious double standards setforth by those that are supposedly our "friends". I have a big problem...

It's amazing that if one wants to get a racing owners license in the state of NY, a long vetting process takes place...
In this particular case, because of the huge sums of money involved, it's "see no evil, hear no evil".

If I've insulted the Royal Saudi family.... Too bad.

Ok , lets see the phipps family and the sheiks have more money then you will ever have in ten lifetimes and you take issue with both. Seems like a simple case of jealousy to me. Try not to be so transparent!!!!!
I am sure all of us who hide behind our keyboards would love to have big balls like you and tell it like it is. Unfourtunately PA does not let us call out racial and vulgar slurs without getting kicked off. Btw it doesa not take any balls at all to come on here and insult people, I would say you are someone who took alot of beatings when you were younger and now has a forum where you can hide . Big Balls is putting 50k on a horse to win at long odds not blasting fellow posters about your almighty status!!!!

slewis
05-01-2009, 08:01 AM
Ok , lets see the phipps family and the sheiks have more money then you will ever have in ten lifetimes and you take issue with both. Seems like a simple case of jealousy to me. Try not to be so transparent!!!!!
I am sure all of us who hide behind our keyboards would love to have big balls like you and tell it like it is. Unfourtunately PA does not let us call out racial and vulgar slurs without getting kicked off. Btw it doesa not take any balls at all to come on here and insult people, I would say you are someone who took alot of beatings when you were younger and now has a forum where you can hide . Big Balls is putting 50k on a horse to win at long odds not blasting fellow posters about your almighty status!!!!


You're absolutely correct.... it doesn't take balls to come on here and sling ....whether those perceived slings are insulting or not... or in the case of your evaluation of my "racial slurs".... anonymity rules... but I am the exception...
Many many many on this forum... including NYRA management know who I am and I like it that way... I'll hold my head high every single day.. with no fear.
I have an extra bitter taste (or distaste) for those that hide behind a religion or anything for that matter, in the name of hate.
Every single person I worked with died on Sept 11th.
Do I hate Arabs, absolutely not. Muslims, no way in hell... I have hatred for those that are two faced... and do it with a smile to carry their agenda.
Something I can be proud I'll never do.... regardless of my bank account.
It's something called principle, something the foundation of this country was founded upon... but has unfortunetly, slipped away.
Not my fault...I have no price..

Relwob Owner
05-01-2009, 08:43 AM
Thanks for lending credence to my thoughts. Stop with the newbie stuff, obviously I have been here before, wont be back. You are uncanny in steering away from the issues. You are always talking about the smell test, You have failed miserably at it. When you stop defending and start doing your job( taking issue with slewis who you let constantly bash other posters as well as his racial and vulgar slurs )maybe then you will gain some credability with posters. You see PA , you are not as slick as you pretend to be, I for one am on to your phony act!!!!!


I stumbled onto this forum relatively recently and had a tough time starting out. It was my first forum of any sort and it took me a while to get a feel for things. Pace and some others quickly let me know what the ground rules were and I adjusted. Thank God I did because this Forum is awesome.

One thing that I learned quickly is that this is NOT my forum. Pace is the moderator and he has the power to dictate how things should be. I disagree with about half(maybe more) of the things he says opinion wise but find myself almost never disagreeing with how he runs things. If I didnt like the forum and felt as strongly as you do, I would leave....


Which leads me to my next thought-if you dont like how he runs things, why not just go away? Even better, start your own forum? I have a feeling if you did, you would understand Pace and how he does things a lot better.....

We are days before the biggest race of the year and you are spending time bitching about this forum....kind of dumb, dont you think???? :bang:

PaceAdvantage
05-01-2009, 10:56 AM
obviously I have been here before, wont be back.The biggest bullshit line of the week. And it being Derby week, that says alot.

onefast99
05-01-2009, 12:20 PM
The biggest bullshit line of the week. And it being Derby week, that says alot.
This thread had a lot of good posts in it about the IEAH group and its ways of doing business. Too bad it was hijacked somewhere over Louisville!

tribecaagent
05-02-2009, 09:29 AM
Why would they sell a piece of I Want Revenge now???

We're a week away from the Derby and from what I've read the horse is doing well. Why would they sell a piece of this horse NOW?? I just don't get it.

Was this whole thing planned? Interesting.

Relwob Owner
05-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Was this whole thing planned? Interesting.


Very, very suspicious IMHO....they are developing a bad track record for what happens to horses after they sell a piece

onefast99
05-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Very, very suspicious IMHO....they are developing a bad track record for what happens to horses after they sell a piece
No need to think a conspiracy theory is in play here.

Relwob Owner
05-02-2009, 10:51 AM
No need to think a conspiracy theory is in play here.

I would say for the most part I agree with you, but selling part of the Derby favorite a week before the race and then having him scratch because of a bad ankle definitely makes it plausible and worthy of discussion IMHO.....

magwell
05-02-2009, 01:27 PM
They buy two ready made horses for about 9 million, one to run in the oaks and one for the Derby now both out of action, that tells how tough this game is...by the way. the arabs have spent maybe 100 million or more in last couple of years with nothing to show so far......:bang:

ManeMediaMogul
05-07-2009, 10:59 PM
Maybe because his last two workouts were horrible? :cool:

I posted that on April 25.

I Want Revenge hadn't been training well for at least two weeks prior to the Derby and looked off in front when he was schooling in the Churchill paddock.

Relwob Owner
05-07-2009, 11:12 PM
I posted that on April 25.

I Want Revenge hadn't been training well for at least two weeks prior to the Derby and looked off in front when he was schooling in the Churchill paddock.

I am not familiar with what happens when part of horses are sold but how does an examination not show any issues? I am sure there was one when Singer bought a piece?