Discrimination takes on a new look !

[cj's dad]

U.S. Supreme Court Hears New Haven Firefighters' Reverse Discrimination Arguments

By EDMUND MAHONY | The Hartford Courant

"The 20 plaintiffs, one of whom is Hispanic and also identified as white, claim that the city's decision to scrap the examination results before any promotions were made violated their rights to be employed in an environment free from racial classification.


All 20 plaintiffs would have qualified for promotion to lieutenant or captain had the test, which the city purchased for $100,000 from a consultant, been used by the city civil service board. No blacks scored high enough to qualify for promotion. The test was divided between written and oral questions".




This test had zero questions which could be considered skewed toward any race or ethnicity. Every question had to do with firefighting procedures, techniques, protocols, etc....

I guess when promotions don't fit a citys' racial agenda, the potential promotees get screwed !!

[Tom]

Gives you a good cozy feeling when your first responders turn out to be politically placed over ability.

[cj's dad]

I can't wait for the do-gooders here to chime in on this foolishness- probably waiting for their scripted responses to be sent to them from moveon.org :lol:

[The Judge]

here a little more on what and why this happened http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-westfaulcon24-2009apr24,0,5548886.story . The Supreme Court will have the final say. I sure they will rule that the results of the test will stand. What will be interesting is what the split will be.

[cj's dad]

Your piece from the LA Times originates in the OP-Ed section. The article I quoted from The New haven newspaper comes from the news section.

A difference ? yes - no ?

Ask yourself this question honestly, please:

Had the situation been reversed, i.e. the minorities had passed and the whites/hispanics had scored lower or failed, do you honestly believe the promotions of the minorities to Captain and Lieutenant would have been put on hold by the city of New Haven ??

[The Judge]

orignanted in the newspaper the only question is,"is it accurate". I will reply more later. From the little I know the test should not be thrown out. I may have a different opinion later today after I dig a little deeper.

I will state the I feel a City would be within it rights to declare that all emegency personel live within the City Limits or within a few miles radius. Thats another story but it may have a place in this post.

[cj's dad]

orignanted in the newspaper the only question is,"is it accurate". I will reply more later. From the little I know the test should not be thrown out. I may have a different opinion later today after I dig a little deeper.

I will state the I feel a City would be within it rights to declare that all emegency personel live within the City Limits or within a few miles radius. Thats another story but it may have a place in this post.

I can tell you for a fact that if that happened in Baltimore, it would be an absolute nightmare !! But thats for another day !

BTW- at the very least, you are keeping an open mind

[Tom]

They are trying that here in Rochester - dumb idea.
You are limited to what lives in the city, and the word "what" is appropriate!:D

What they found out here is that rather than move to Rochester, good people would just find other jobs. For those who have never been here, Rochester is an armpit of a city. I prefer Baltimore - cleaner, safer. :eek:

[cj's dad]

They are trying that here in Rochester - dumb idea.
You are limited to what lives in the city, and the word "what" is appropriate!:D

What they found out here is that rather than move to Rochester, good people would just find other jobs. For those who have never been here, Rochester is an armpit of a city. I prefer Baltimore - cleaner, safer. :eek:

I have never seen those 3 words in the same sentence - NEVER !!

[Rookies]

I have never seen those 3 words in the same sentence - NEVER !!

Assuming "The Wire" is fairly accurate... ;)

[Marshall Bennett]

I have never seen those 3 words in the same sentence - NEVER !!
:lol: :lol:

[Tom]

There is a reason I like Baltimore......

[cj's dad]

Assuming "The Wire" is fairly accurate... ;)

is Baltimore "light"

[NJ Stinks]

I can't wait for the do-gooders here to chime in on this foolishness- probably waiting for their scripted responses to be sent to them from moveon.org :lol:

Just wanted you to know I'm still waiting, CJ's dad. :p :)

[Rookies]

is Baltimore "light"

Ugly.

Why would you stay ?

[cj's dad]

Just wanted you to know I'm still waiting, CJ's dad. :p :)

So, are you saying that you ARE still waiting for your talking points to arrive, or that you have not been able to formulate an opinion on your own??

Some of us here give an opinion no matter what - for better or worse; try it , you may like it !!

Come on stinks, give it a go- what do YOU think ??

[The Judge]

some more about the case from Employment Attornerys blogs. I think the facts as laid out are clear. I don't think New Heaven should have thrown the test out. After the lower court the Supreme Court of Connecticut didn't hear the case from the lower trial court sio to my knowledge the case isn't for pubication so it went directly to the Supreme Court of the U.S.

Whether or not the test should have been given in the first place is a different story. Whether other things could have been done in addition to a written test, such as a oral interview to evaluate whether or not those that passed the test are capable of commanding other firefighters as a Lieutenant. I think these and other reasons maybe a reason to promote a person with a lower written exam score over a person with a higher score.

However you shouldn't be allowed to see the results first and then change the criteria. I can't imagine a City with Attorneys on staff not knowing the law before allowing such an important test to be given.

At the DMV their are a number of test that you must take before you can drive ,age, can you see, do you know the written rules of the road, can you pass the DRIVERS TEST. I see nothing wrong with this type of test.
http://www.ctemploymentlawblog.com/2008/06/articles/discriminationharassment/second-circuit-allows-employer-to-throw-out-test-results-that-may-have-had-disparate-impact-on-africanamericans/ http://volokh.com/posts/1213664671.shtml http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/laborprof_blog/2008/06/update-on-secon.html

[NJ Stinks]

Well, I just read the story at the link below:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090422/ap_on_go_su_co/us_scotus_firefighters_lawsuit

While I agree that results of the test should stand, there is this part that is troubling in the story linked above:

A ruling against the city, Justice David Souter said, could leave employers in a "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation." Souter's comment reflected the concern of business interests who said in a court filing that a decision in favor of the white firefighters would place employers in an untenable position of having to choose whether to face lawsuits from disgruntled white or minority workers.

"Whatever Congress wanted to attain" in writing the civil rights law, Souter said, "it couldn't have wanted to attain that kind of a situation."

[Rookies]

On the question at hand (and having several TO firefighters as friends), it owuld appear to come down to this issue:

Since Title VII was signed into law in 1964, it has been illegal for employers to use tests that have an unjustified racially "discriminatory effect."

The opinion cites some grounds for the appeal:

New Haven's attorney correctly interpreted Title VII to mean that the city's firefighter test should measure "who is going to be a good supervisor ultimately, not who is going to be a good test-taker." In other cases, judges have concluded, based on expert testimony, that written, multiple-choice tests for firefighter promotion like the one in this case contain the "fatal flaw" of failing to test for "supervisory ability." The company that made the New Haven Fire Department exam acknowledges that its test does not include any questions that measure a test-taker's ability to supervise or lead other firefighters in the line of duty.

New Haven's potential liability was made greater by the fact that the city has been advised by testing experts, before making the promotions, that alternative, better tests were available. One expert in firefighter examinations told the city about promotion tests that produced less racial disparity.

That to me, seems a bit odd. Surely, you want to know how candidates whether they be white/black/ or polka dot handle the stresses of being a manager and leader under fire (no pun intended). So, is that an "unjustified" exclusion factor for racism or just the city not being up on current testing nor even thinking that leadership SHOULD be tested ?

If another test, which did evaluate the critical factors of mgt. (coaching, delegating, leading, negotiating, conducting), resulted in all candidates being of one race, then I wouldn't have any problem.

I've been part of these standardized tests myself and know from personal experience that there can be some shenanigans associated with them. In particular, " In Basket Tests" have been challenged as to their appropriateness and usefullness in meeting the criteria established.

[toetoe]

I knew a gal once in Baltimore ... Y-E-E-E-S. Poor thing had crabs. (:W.C. Fields inflection, also tapping cigar ash.)

[boxcar]

Well, I just read the story at the link below:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090422/ap_on_go_su_co/us_scotus_firefighters_lawsuit

While I agree that results of the test should stand, there is this part that is troubling in the story linked above:

A ruling against the city, Justice David Souter said, could leave employers in a "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation." Souter's comment reflected the concern of business interests who said in a court filing that a decision in favor of the white firefighters would place employers in an untenable position of having to choose whether to face lawsuits from disgruntled white or minority workers.

"Whatever Congress wanted to attain" in writing the civil rights law, Souter said, "it couldn't have wanted to attain that kind of a situation."

But when Congress suffers from chronic Mental Myopia, lacking all foresight, what else could we expect but "to attain to that kind of situation"!? Congress is always falling victim to the Law of Unintended Consequences due to its bad laws. Constantly!

Boxcar

[NJ Stinks]

But when Congress suffers from chronic Mental Myopia, lacking all foresight, what else could we expect but "to attain to that kind of situation"!? Congress is always falling victim to the Law of Unintended Consequences due to its bad laws. Constantly!

Boxcar

I agree, Boxcar.

Boxcar, are you OK?

Me agreeing with you might be a bit much! :)

[cj's dad]

Ugly.

Why would you stay ?

I don't live in that part of the city where all the problems are. I actually live on the very outskirts, just inside the county line. It's quite nice here, one simply has to know what areas to avoid and there is no problem. Besides all of my friends are here and most of my family and I'm too G--damn old to move.