Now it's Churchill!

[rrbauer]

Had enough of this crap. Forget the Derby, forget the TC....I'll see you at Saratoga.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50358/churchill-signal-may-be-limited-again?id=50358&source=rss

[Tom]

Greedy bastards. Boycott KY again. And California, and Florida.
I'm not even going to Toga...not after the Noah's Ark trip last year.
Fort Eire gets my money this year. Canada knows how to treat its customers. Screw the US tracks - all of them.

[cj]

I'm not sure I'd point to Canada as the model to follow.

[BUD]

The more I learn about the Biz the more I wish I did not know.

[BillW]

FE is at the bottom of the HANA track Rating list. If it wasn't for ASD, they'd be last.

[trying2win]

I've mentioned many times before, that Tracknet is usually bad news for bettors. Another fine example here with the disputes over the Churchill Downs signal. And Tom is right in some ways that Canada knows how to treat it's customers....well...at least in some ways...not necessarily in all ways better than the U.S. tracks:

1. Canadian tracks have nickel breakage...U.S. tracks, the rip-off dime breakage.

2. Canadian tracks have no 'signers' to pay extra income taxes....U.S. tracks...well we all know the story on the rip-off laws on 'signers' in this country. One way to get reform on items 1 and 2 in the U.S. is too complain to the powers in the U.S. that control the laws on these extra burdensome taxes on parimutuel bets. How to do that? Maybe complain to your state or federal representative? Oh yeah, remind them that by eliminating these extra parimutuel taxes, that that will actually increase parimutuel handle and thus increase revenues to state and/or federal governments. Seems common sense to me.

3. Northlands Park has the lowest takeout on straight bets. I believe it's 16.8 %. And that can be brought lower if you bet through PTC, who give a generous rebate on Northlands Park bets. Every little edge helps. The bad news is the gimmick takeouts at Northlands Park I believe are 24.8 %, which is too high in my opinion. That can be lowered of course by betting through PTC.

4. We get free parking and admission at Northlands Park, so I guess that's worth mentioning.

5. Canadian horsemen overall seem to be a cooperative, grateful bunch compared to many of their U.S. counterparts.

6. The Woodbine Entertainment Group is one negative aspect of Canadian racing in my opinion, from too many arrogant executives to exorbitant gimmick takouts on their own Woodbine and Mohawk racetracks, and to their cheapskate HPI operation.

T2W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
~"If you can't imitate him, don't copy him."

-Yogi Berra

[Rook]

FE is at the bottom of the HANA track Rating list. If it wasn't for ASD, they'd be last.

It was a disgrace to have FE ranked that low. I had them ranked 9th. Unlike evil Woodbine, they have an open signal policy and with the rebates available at PTC, they have one of the lowest effective takeouts. They also supply video on their website, which is sadly not the norm.

[dutchboy]

Lot of 6 and 7 horse fields opening day at Churchill. Wonder why?

[Tom]

FE is at the bottom of the HANA track Rating list. If it wasn't for ASD, they'd be last.

Near the top of mine.
HANA not looking at what I look at - good racing, profitability.
They put KEE on top didn't they? Worst crap track for betting on earth, IMHO.
CD comes in #5, but you can't bet it. Nice. Seems the ratings lack some reality. :rolleyes:

[trying2win]

Try and describe what you think of either Drew Couto of the TOC, or Scott Daruthy of Tracknet in a short sentence of adjectives and a nouns, without using a barrage of four, five, six or seven letter swear words...:lol: . I guess it's possible...let's see now...uh...um...er...ah....

T2W
------------------------------------------------------------------------
~"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."

--John Wooden

[Cangamble]

It was a disgrace to have FE ranked that low. I had them ranked 9th. Unlike evil Woodbine, they have an open signal policy and with the rebates available at PTC, they have one of the lowest effective takeouts. They also supply video on their website, which is sadly not the norm.
They have the highest exactor takeout of all tracks. That is very disappointing. They also have small field sizes.
I agree that they sell their signal to anyone, and kept going with PTC even when Woodbine pulled the plug.
They are also one of the only tracks I know of that has their video available to everyone.
It is a great track to hang at. Free admission and very friendly atmosphere. I just won't bet there without a substantial rebate.

[sandpit]

Lot of 6 and 7 horse fields opening day at Churchill. Wonder why?

Indiana Downs, Mountaineer, Charles Town, etc. all sucking the bottom end horses away from Kentucky with their slots-fueled purses. Plus, the idiotic management forcing the Racing Secretary to card 11 races opening day is ridiculous. If they would run 9, you would have two less 6-horse races to sit through. Derby Day, I believe they are running 13 races! This drains the horse population tremendously...watch the week after Derby and see how light the entries are. By the first of June, the place may look like Hollywood Park east.

[andicap]

I'm just wondering why we're blaming CHurchill Downs when we don't have any -- or very few facts -- here. They reached a deal with the horsemen so that's over and done with.

Seems to me negotiations are going to be tougher and tougher because ADWs/tracks are trying to keep a few points for rebates. Well its got to come otu of someone's pocket and it sure as hell won't be the state or the horsemen.
And TVG gets a 5.5% split -- that it's business model They've always been tough negotiators on that. They've had and lost Arlington, Fair Grounds, Calder, Churchill and some others over their split. So why is this a surprise?

And the article suggests You Bet is likely to come to terms but if You Bet is eager to give rebates, well where is that 2-3% coming from?

[andicap]

Another thought.

We have good reason to be angry and this is a great forum for venting. Get it out. Shout it loud to the rafters and scream, baby, scream! Do your best Howard Beale impression. After all, there are no horseplayer/fan reps in any of the rooms here -- as usual our interests are in the hands of groups who have never shown any inclination to be sympathetic to our needs.

But if HANA is to be effective -- and I realize HANA has not weighed in here -- but if we as fans/horseplayers are going to have credibility as a group we must carefully weigh all the facts before demanding blood, makng boycott threats, etc.

What people do as individuals on an everyday basis is up to them of course -- if you want to boycott CDm who am I or anyone else to tell you not to -- but as HANA members we should at least try and weigh these issues after listening to ALL sides.

Should our ire here be aimed at CD or TVG or both?

I think this is an excellent time for HANA to pipe up, demand the facts, issue a statement asking why we are being caught in the middle -- avoiding inflammatory language -- and maintain our right to be involved in the process, somehow. Or at the very least, be kept closely informed and in contact with the parties involved.

[rrbauer]

They have the highest exactor takeout of all tracks. That is very disappointing. They also have small field sizes.
I agree that they sell their signal to anyone, and kept going with PTC even when Woodbine pulled the plug.
They are also one of the only tracks I know of that has their video available to everyone.It is a great track to hang at. Free admission and very friendly atmosphere. I just won't bet there without a substantial rebate.

Tampa Bay and Keeneland both have live video from their web sites. There are probably others that I don't play/know about.

[rrbauer]

Another thought.

We have good reason to be angry and this is a great forum for venting. Get it out. Shout it loud to the rafters and scream, baby, scream! Do your best Howard Beale impression. After all, there are no horseplayer/fan reps in any of the rooms here -- as usual our interests are in the hands of groups who have never shown any inclination to be sympathetic to our needs.

But if HANA is to be effective -- and I realize HANA has not weighed in here -- but if we as fans/horseplayers are going to have credibility as a group we must carefully weigh all the facts before demanding blood, makng boycott threats, etc.

What people do as individuals on an everyday basis is up to them of course -- if you want to boycott CDm who am I or anyone else to tell you not to -- but as HANA members we should at least try and weigh these issues after listening to ALL sides.

Should our ire here be aimed at CD or TVG or both?
I think this is an excellent time for HANA to pipe up, demand the facts, issue a statement asking why we are being caught in the middle -- avoiding inflammatory language -- and maintain our right to be involved in the process, somehow. Or at the very least, be kept closely informed and in contact with the parties involved.

What does TVG have to do with Churchill? I am aiming my ire at the industry because it is easily the most dysfunctional thing to call itself a "business" going today. Since horseplayers have no standing (Keeneland being the sole exception) at the industry table and horseplayers provide the life blood (read: handle) for the industry why should't horseplayers dump their ire on every track, horse owners' group, trainer, jockey, agent, HBPA group, ADW, yada, yada until the "leadership" reins in the insanity and acts like it cares about its customers? The only thing that horseplayers are involved in is to be on the receiving end of the chaos. Why would that inspire anything but the hostility that keeps bubbling up from the horseplayers' caldron?

Just because we are part of a growing organization like HANA that is starting to achieve some success on our behalf doesn't mean that as individuals we should just shut up and follow the bouncing ball. I've been rasing hell about the plight of horseplayers and the dirty end of their stick for twenty years. Others have too. HANA can't do everything and certainly not all at once. Maybe one of these days, instead of running off and betting a race at some nondescript track, HANA will encourage its membership to spend an hour and fire off some letters and emails to a list of influential targets in the industry just to let them know that we're here; and, that we're mad as Hell!

[RichieP]

spend an hour and fire off some letters and emails to a list of influential targets in the industry just to let them know that we're here; and, that we're mad as Hell!

Thanks Rich for the "pump up" man. I will do just that today
:ThmbUp:

[DeanT]

Indiana Downs, Mountaineer, Charles Town, etc. all sucking the bottom end horses away from Kentucky with their slots-fueled purses. Plus, the idiotic management forcing the Racing Secretary to card 11 races opening day is ridiculous. If they would run 9, you would have two less 6-horse races to sit through. Derby Day, I believe they are running 13 races! This drains the horse population tremendously...watch the week after Derby and see how light the entries are. By the first of June, the place may look like Hollywood Park east.

This is one of the features that is often overlooked for killing handles (imo). Cheaper tracks sucking good stock from high handle ones. A ten horse field at CD versus one at one of those tracks, when extrapolated over a racing season can add up to many millions. It is happening all over. I watch the harness races and on Wed and Thursday the Meadowlands loses half their stock and half the driving colony to drive at other slots tracks with $200k handles, while the M with its $3M-$4M handles takes a hit. This is a messed up business in many ways. No way in hell would any business put cash resources into a venue that brings in less revenue than somewhere else, but in racing it is commonplace.

[price]

HANA = Sucking on TVG's banana.

TVG is the solo reason RTN does not have access to all track signals.

I have no interest in watching a race on a computer screen or trying to get all the info I need via a "filter" like TVG. I want the raw track feed on my TV...and I am willing to pay $99.99 per month for it.

Hana is dead to me because they are in bed with TVG.

Sellouts.

[DeanT]

HANA = Sucking on TVG's banana.

TVG is the solo reason RTN does not have access to all track signals.

I have no interest in watching a race on a computer screen or trying to get all the info I need via a "filter" like TVG. I want the raw track feed on my TV...and I am willing to pay $99.99 per month for it.

Hana is dead to me because they are in bed with TVG.

Sellouts.

Please let me relay our sincere thanks for the well-thought out constructive criticism.

[price]

LOL...that was a good reply! It made me laugh.

[trying2win]

What does TVG have to do with Churchill? I am aiming my ire at the industry because it is easily the most dysfunctional thing to call itself a "business" going today. Since horseplayers have no standing (Keeneland being the sole exception) at the industry table and horseplayers provide the life blood (read: handle) for the industry why should't horseplayers dump their ire on every track, horse owners' group, trainer, jockey, agent, HBPA group, ADW, yada, yada until the "leadership" reins in the insanity and acts like it cares about its customers? The only thing that horseplayers are involved in is to be on the receiving end of the chaos. Why would that inspire anything but the hostility that keeps bubbling up from the horseplayers' caldron?

Just because we are part of a growing organization like HANA that is starting to achieve some success on our behalf doesn't mean that as individuals we should just shut up and follow the bouncing ball. I've been rasing hell about the plight of horseplayers and the dirty end of their stick for twenty years. Others have too. HANA can't do everything and certainly not all at once. Maybe one of these days, instead of running off and betting a race at some nondescript track, HANA will encourage its membership to spend an hour and fire off some letters and emails to a list of influential targets in the industry just to let them know that we're here; and, that we're mad as Hell!

Richard:

Bravo! Well said. Howard Beale would be proud of you. :ThmbUp:

T2W
----------------------------------------------------------------------
~"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."

--Edmund Burke

[rrbauer]

HANA = Sucking on TVG's banana.

TVG is the solo reason RTN does not have access to all track signals.

I have no interest in watching a race on a computer screen or trying to get all the info I need via a "filter" like TVG. I want the raw track feed on my TV...and I am willing to pay $99.99 per month for it.

Hana is dead to me because they are in bed with TVG.

Sellouts.

People don't like TVG....I'm not a big fan myself. However, they put HANA on prime time and gave them a big push. That's more than HRTV, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, YADA, YADA all together ever did for HANA or any horseplayers group.

Along side that is Keeneland. People don't like Keeneland....I lost about $600 there last week myself. Nonetheless, Keeneland gave HANA top billing on it's web site (go look). Keeneland gave HANA an audience with its President; not once, but twice. Keeneland named a race for HANA and had its members down in the winners circle for a presentation to the winning connections. Keeneland gave HANA twenty reserved seats on the finish line for its day at the races. Keeneland is the only racetrack on the planet that made a conscious effort to implement the NTRA Players Panel recommendations after the Fix Six scandal. Going forward, you can expect Keeneland to be involved in more initiatives to improve the game for horseplayers.

What has any other track or racing association ever done for HANA? For any horseplayers group? Not a damn thing.

[price]

People don't like TVG....I'm not a big fan myself. However, they put HANA on prime time and gave them a big push. That's more than HRTV, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, YADA, YADA all together ever did for HANA or any horseplayers group.

Along side that is Keeneland. People don't like Keeneland....I lost about $600 there last week myself. Nonetheless, Keeneland gave HANA top billing on it's web site (go look). Keeneland gave HANA an audience with its President; not once, but twice. Keeneland named a race for HANA and had its members down in the winners circle for a presentation to the winning connections. Keeneland gave HANA twenty reserved seats on the finish line for its day at the races. Keeneland is the only racetrack on the planet that made a conscious effort to implement the NTRA Players Panel recommendations after the Fix Six scandal. Going forward, you can expect Keeneland to be involved in more initiatives to improve the game for horseplayers.

What has any other track or racing association ever done for HANA? For any horseplayers group? Not a damn thing.

KEE isn't on RTN=dead to me.

As for the spree of gifts...oh goody. That would put HANA at the same level as a certain blogger who loved CD til he got jilted for some free stuff. Since then its been all negative. So KEE is great as long as the freebies keep coming?

That said...if HANA somehow got them on RTN my opinion of HANA would change 180 degrees.

I'm easy.

[trying2win]

Have I got my facts straight in this post?:

--Keeneland has one of the lowest overall sets of track takeouts of racetracks in the USA.

--And isn't Kentucky one the states that doesn't have slot machines at their racetracks? If so, kudos again to Keenland, because if they can implement lower than average takeouts without slot machine revenue, what does that say about the high takeout racetracks in Canada and the USA that do have slot machne revenue?

--When will the most important group..i.e. the customers get a share of the revenue from slot machines at the racetracks instead of the THGS of this world and other undeserving militant horsemen groups?

--The mystery is...how did horsemen groups get the sole authority to grant signals to other tracks and/or ADWS?. In my opinion, that power should have been granted to the racetracks. How can this be changed? Complain to the provincial, state, Canadian or U.S. Federal Governments?

T2W
----------------------------------------------------------------------
~"Live truth instead of professing it.

--Elbert Hubbard

[price]

Has any racino ever directed a percentage of slots revenue to seed a jackpot pool? Of course not. We do not matter.

[andicap]

W
Just because we are part of a growing organization like HANA that is starting to achieve some success on our behalf doesn't mean that as individuals we should just shut up and follow the bouncing ball. I've been rasing hell about the plight of horseplayers and the dirty end of their stick for twenty years. Others have too. HANA can't do everything and certainly not all at once. Maybe one of these days, instead of running off and betting a race at some nondescript track, HANA will encourage its membership to spend an hour and fire off some letters and emails to a list of influential targets in the industry just to let them know that we're here; and, that we're mad as Hell!

Where did I say horseplayers should shut up? On the contrary in my post I encouraged people to act out their inner Howard Beale and vent their spleens.
(Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with HANA on every issue and they should speak out when they don't -- as long as they have facts to back up their POV. But that's irrelevant here since HANA is not involved. )

All I am saying is that people would be well-advised against making blanket statements in these disputes without knowing the facts.

In mentioning HANA I was speaking more philosophically about how beneficial it is to have an organization that can study the issues and make a reasoned and cogent response in our behalf.

[rrbauer]

All I am saying is that people would be well-advised against making blanket statements in these disputes without knowing the facts.



So tell me Andy, what are the facts?

[miesque]

KEE isn't on RTN=dead to me.

As for the spree of gifts...oh goody. That would put HANA at the same level as a certain blogger who loved CD til he got jilted for some free stuff. Since then its been all negative. So KEE is great as long as the freebies keep coming?

That said...if HANA somehow got them on RTN my opinion of HANA would change 180 degrees.

I'm easy.

So I have a question, why do you have your panties in such a twist about the Horseplayers Association of North America? I want to know since its obviously causing tremendous discomfort and we are here to help horseplayers. Are you upset that HANA has not been directly catering to your whims? Do I need to put that on the agenda for next week's meeting? Shall we raise some money to send you to some grammar lessons so you can insult us properly? Is the concept of giving horseplayers a voice and trying to achieve meaningful change so offensive to you are hell bent on twisting and distorting reality? Freebies? Do you have any concept exactly how much time, effort and money the Board of Directors has expended so far the get the organization both off the ground and moving forward? Yeah a free $10 ticket, woooo weeeeee. Thats so immaterial to my racing travel budget its truly hilarious. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[rrbauer]

So I have a question, why do you have your panties in such a twist about the Horseplayers Association of North America? I want to know since its obviously causing tremendous discomfort and we are here to help horseplayers. Are you upset that HANA has not been directly catering to your whims? Do I need to put that on the agenda for next week's meeting? Shall we raise some money to send you to some grammar lessons so you can insult us properly? Is the concept of giving horseplayers a voice and trying to achieve meaningful change so offensive to you are hell bent on twisting and distorting reality? Freebies? Do you have any concept exactly how much time, effort and money the Board of Directors has expended so far the get the organization both off the ground and moving forward? Yeah a free $10 ticket, woooo weeeeee. Thats so immaterial to my racing travel budget its truly hilarious. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well price, you done pissed off someone who has given a lot of blood, sweat and tears to HANA. What isn't mentioned is that TVG endorsed HANA -not the other way around. What isn't mentioned is that Keeneland had a near-record crowd on Saturday and 20,000 of those folks did not have seats; so, having 20 seats on the finish line was a BIG DEAL. And, what you don't mention in your pissy comments is what does RCS have to say about why they don't have the Keeneland simulcast feed? HANA has nothing to do with what feeds that RCS has or doesn't have. So why don't you take up your issue with RCS and stop pissing on the people who are trying to improve the game for all horseplayers (which, unfortunately includes you).

[JustRalph]

Price........? How much cash have you donated to HANA..........?

[price]

Yes I know I am uneducated. I hardly post anywhere because of that fact. I hope it makes you feel more superior.

As for my whims...what is Hana? Your whims? A dozen players whims? I was there in the "war room" when agenda was talked about. I mentioned RTN and how TVG exclusives block it. Nobody cared because I guess nobody in the room was a subscriber. TVG is the only thing that stands in the way of RTN showing DMR HOL SAX KEE TuP TP EMD RUI. The Meadowlands/Monmouth horsemen made TVG allow RTN to show the signal because of disgruntled fans. Yes TVG is the exclusive for the Meadowlands..meaning HRTV can't show it...and that is cool with me. RTN is a totally seperate issue in New Jersey as it should be. I cannot understand how something as simple as RTN...at home subscribers paying 99.99 a month for the privlidge....can be overlooked. The coverage of TVG or HRTV for that matter is simply inadequate for someone like me. I need to see the post parade. I need to hear changes announced. TVG or HRTV doesnt offer that 100 percent of the time at any track they cover.

I am not saying it should be your number one issue. It's an issue that your group could have fought and won. Instead you rate TVG exclusive tracks highly and you have basically joined the TVG cheerleader camp.

I think TVG is fine with the lone exception of blocking RTN access to live track signals. Otherwise I would look upon them as I do HRTV. Which is they are ok in my book.

How much have I donated to HANA? Zero.

[toussaud]

you can check changes on any ADW site. that should be a non issue.

I live in a townhouse and RTN is simply not an option becuase it would be impossible to install. Not only that, I can't play THAT many tracks and all the tracks provide at HRTV are more than fine with me a constant 2-3 a day.. I don't need nor could I use access to 50 tracks a day. Max a day I can work with 4 tracks and that's pushing it.

[Southieboy]

Wagering now available at Youbet for Churchill

[thruncy]

CDIAnother thought. TVG may be unrelenting on their business model, but they are all about horse racing. CDI is not...with the increasing influence of Richard Ducchisois who once told Marty Magee of DRF that he cared not about the current generation of racefans. This, after he shut down Arlington Park for at least a year because he couldn't bribe the IL. Legislature to legalize casino gaming there.

We have good reason to be angry and this is a great forum for venting. Get it out. Shout it loud to the rafters and scream, baby, scream! Do your best Howard Beale impression. After all, there are no horseplayer/fan reps in any of the rooms here -- as usual our interests are in the hands of groups who have never shown any inclination to be sympathetic to our needs.

But if HANA is to be effective -- and I realize HANA has not weighed in here -- but if we as fans/horseplayers are going to have credibility as a group we must carefully weigh all the facts before demanding blood, makng boycott threats, etc.

What people do as individuals on an everyday basis is up to them of course -- if you want to boycott CDm who am I or anyone else to tell you not to -- but as HANA members we should at least try and weigh these issues after listening to ALL sides.

Should our ire here be aimed at CD or TVG or both?

I think this is an excellent time for HANA to pipe up, demand the facts, issue a statement asking why we are being caught in the middle -- avoiding inflammatory language -- and maintain our right to be involved in the process, somehow. Or at the very least, be kept closely informed and in contact with the parties involved.

[Imriledup]

People don't like TVG....I'm not a big fan myself. However, they put HANA on prime time and gave them a big push. That's more than HRTV, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, YADA, YADA all together ever did for HANA or any horseplayers group.

Along side that is Keeneland. People don't like Keeneland....I lost about $600 there last week myself. Nonetheless, Keeneland gave HANA top billing on it's web site (go look). Keeneland gave HANA an audience with its President; not once, but twice. Keeneland named a race for HANA and had its members down in the winners circle for a presentation to the winning connections. Keeneland gave HANA twenty reserved seats on the finish line for its day at the races. Keeneland is the only racetrack on the planet that made a conscious effort to implement the NTRA Players Panel recommendations after the Fix Six scandal. Going forward, you can expect Keeneland to be involved in more initiatives to improve the game for horseplayers.

What has any other track or racing association ever done for HANA? For any horseplayers group? Not a damn thing.

Keeneland ruined the game for players by putting in a polytrack. Actually, i should say 'some players' as not all players have access to wager on Keeneland's races.

[thruncy]

Keeneland ruined the game for players by putting in a polytrack. Actually, i should say 'some players' as not all players have access to wager on Keeneland's races.Is all about the horse and horse racing. Churchill Downs and Churchill Downs Inc. are all about the Kentucky Derby and casino gaming. Suggest you apply there as "chief party officer."

[Indulto]

Price........? How much cash have you donated to HANA..........?JR,
How much time and effort did you contribute toward HANA's getting off the ground before you actually made a donation? Have you seen any accounting of what donations have been received and how they are/were used? Do you think your donation(s) and/or purchase(s) of HANA gear provide you with some moral high ground over anyone who hasn’t done the same?

Price,
It's unfortunate you were so offensive in your posts prior to #32 and created so much bad will. I believe it would have been improper of JeffP to assume TVG’s new management was not planning to become more horseplayer-friendly and reject their promotional benefit. If it should turn out that TVG/Betfair continues to prevent players from wagering and video access to every track, IMO that would be the time to confront them.... Shall we raise some money to send you to some grammar lessons so you can insult us properly? Is the concept of giving horseplayers a voice and trying to achieve meaningful change so offensive to you are hell bent on twisting and distorting reality? Freebies? Do you have any concept exactly how much time, effort and money the Board of Directors has expended so far the get the organization both off the ground and moving forward? Yeah a free $10 ticket, woooo weeeeee. Thats so immaterial to my racing travel budget its truly hilarious. miesque,
Is the above response appropriate coming from a decision-maker and corporate official of HANA? As a concurrent PA forum member, it is certainly appropriate for you to advocate and defend HANA here, but not IMO to personally denigrate any opposition or dissension not aimed at you personally, regardless of how provocative. More information and less derision would be most welcome.

Although I never encountered you in the war room, I have always assumed that the subsequent involvement of your professional experience -- and hopefully expertise and competence -- were largely responsible for transforming HANA into a corporate entity. Please correct that impression if it is inaccurate.

I once received what I perceived to be a friendly PM from you in response to a public post of mine, but my private response to that PM asking how I might make a donation anonymously was never answered.

It's nice that you have the resources to pay your own way to attend entertaining functions that increase both awareness of HANA and your personal visibility within the industry. I have yet to hear anyone other than yourself suggest that HANA might grow from a gross roots movement to an organization rivaling AARP, so I feel compelled to ask, what exactly is your motivation for all that you sacrifice for HANA; at least for those of us who have no concept of what that is? ;)

[JustRalph]

Indulto, I never assume any moral high ground. Ok, maybe sometimes........ :lol:

It was a fair question....... I am sure he hasn't done any volunteer work for HANA or I would have heard of it.

The other side of the coin would be he has participated by helping out with cash......... just a question. If he had come back and said he had given a couple hundred bucks.....he might have a beef that I might listen too. It is way too easy to sit back and say the the things he did without any skin in the game.

Btw, Indulto.......who is policeman tomorrow? You obviously have the watch today

[price]

IND...you are right. My approach was wrong. My apologies for my immature attack. I still believe that HANA is in bed with TVG...just my opinion. I am frustrated of being the only person out there who cares about this issue. I have written letters...made phone calls...visited people in peson...e mailed...and even talked with Mr. Roberts about how I could help. All to no avail.

As for Just Ralph. Great point about "skin in the game." I am sure all of the posters on the political section of this website have had the guts to run for public office. No?

[miesque]

miesque,
Is the above response appropriate coming from a decision-maker and corporate official of HANA? As a concurrent PA forum member, it is certainly appropriate for you to advocate and defend HANA here, but not IMO to personally denigrate any opposition or dissension not aimed at you personally, regardless of how provocative. More information and less derision would be most welcome.

Although I never encountered you in the war room, I have always assumed that the subsequent involvement of your professional experience -- and hopefully expertise and competence -- were largely responsible for transforming HANA into a corporate entity. Please correct that impression if it is inaccurate.

I once received what I perceived to be a friendly PM from you in response to a public post of mine, but my private response to that PM asking how I might make a donation anonymously was never answered.

It's nice that you have the resources to pay your own way to attend entertaining functions that increase both awareness of HANA and your personal visibility within the industry. I have yet to hear anyone other than yourself suggest that HANA might grow from a gross roots movement to an organization rivaling AARP, so I feel compelled to ask, what exactly is your motivation for all that you sacrifice for HANA; at least for those of us who have no concept of what that is? ;)

I was responding in kind to a post whose sole purpose was to be derogatory and offensive in nature and which was not a well meaning request for clarification or additional information. Could it have been handled better by myself? Yes and I will admit that, but I am also not just going to roll over and take insults without responding.

Now this particular conversation does bring up a very good point that it is very easy for those hiding behind anonymous screen names and the cloak of darkness to hurl insults and cristicisms at those who have stuck their necks out in a public manner. At the Horseplayers Association of North America, we conduct business using real names and interact with others in the same manner. Every single dollar that the Horseplayers Association of North America has received to date has a traceable name attached to it, not a single dollar has been from an unknown source and I happen to like that. In addition, as soon as the organization was incorporated we made it a point that all HANA member sign-ups included from that point on included a real name and address associated with it, not just a screen name and miscellaneous e-mail. You asked about making an anonymous gift and I apologize for not responding but I frankly did not know how at the time because that was the first and in fact it still is the only such request and I frankly did not know how to give an appropriate response and was busy and just let it fall through the cracks. You are welcome to send us a check or Paypal with your real name on it and we will not divulge your name and address, but as far as having a stranger in disquise walk up and hand a HANA Board member an envelope with cash, that sort of anonymous, the answer is no.

As far as you asking what my motivation is, since you are alluding to some sort of alterior motive and since you seem to be so interested in who other people are and why they do what they do, I will tell you. I am the type that when I get upset and pissed off about something I either work to correct/improve it or I move on. I have had a tremendous level of frustration with rampant dysfunctionality in the industry that is so bad that merely placing a bet on a race at home is accompanied with the "Can I bet that track and on what ADW" guessing game because its constantly changing due to horsemens fights, exclusive contracts, its the fourth Tuesday of the fifth month during leap year or whatever. I showed up in the War Room mid-summer to join the HANA organizational meetings specifically because of those frustrations and the fact I had reached the point whereby either I try to fix it or just completely walk away from the game. If the HANA Board had just hidden behind its collective keyboards and nobody had been willing to put their names out there as being officers of the organization and nobody was making an effort to get out and talk with industry participants and officials, well, HANA would not be a corporate entity and it would have been doomed to be a two bit irrelevant player that is not taken seriously by the industry with a fraction of the members it has now. I realize you would prefer it had stayed that way and that is your prerogative, but I think the vast majority of our members are relatively happy with the progress we have made. One of the goals was to give horseplayers a voice and also for horseplayers to get "a seat at the table" so that voice is heard effectively and give that voice an opportunity to be involved with creating solutions. We have made a small amount of progress but have a very long road ahead of us.

[BillW]

IND...you are right. My approach was wrong. My apologies for my immature attack. I still believe that HANA is in bed with TVG...just my opinion.

Please post your proof, I'd be interested to see it.

[Cangamble]

Please post your proof, I'd be interested to see it.
He said "he thinks," therefore it is just an opinion. A wrong one at that. If we were in bed with TVG I'm sure I'd know about it by now:)
We might be guilty of being nice to those who are nice to us though.

[cj]

Indulto loves to attack those that accomplish things...anonymously of course.

[Indulto]

Indulto, I never assume any moral high ground. Ok, maybe sometimes........ :lol:

It was a fair question....... I am sure he hasn't done any volunteer work for HANA or I would have heard of it.

The other side of the coin would be he has participated by helping out with cash......... just a question. If he had come back and said he had given a couple hundred bucks.....he might have a beef that I might listen too. It is way too easy to sit back and say the the things he did without any skin in the game.

Btw, Indulto.......who is policeman tomorrow? You obviously have the watch todayJR,
I’m always on the watch for your attempts to drag the “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” logic from off-topic to other areas of this forum. ;)

[Indulto]

IND...you are right. My approach was wrong. My apologies for my immature attack. I still believe that HANA is in bed with TVG...just my opinion. I am frustrated of being the only person out there who cares about this issue. I have written letters...made phone calls...visited people in peson...e mailed...and even talked with Mr. Roberts about how I could help. All to no avail.

As for Just Ralph. Great point about "skin in the game." I am sure all of the posters on the political section of this website have had the guts to run for public office. No?Price,
You don’t owe me any apology for expressing your opinion, but I’ve seldom seen a poster damage his own credibility with such abandon.

[Indulto]

I was responding in kind to a post whose sole purpose was to be derogatory and offensive in nature and which was not a well meaning request for clarification or additional information. Could it have been handled better by myself? Yes and I will admit that, but I am also not just going to roll over and take insults without responding.

Now this particular conversation does bring up a very good point that it is very easy for those hiding behind anonymous screen names and the cloak of darkness to hurl insults and cristicisms at those who have stuck their necks out in a public manner. At the Horseplayers Association of North America, we conduct business using real names and interact with others in the same manner. Every single dollar that the Horseplayers Association of North America has received to date has a traceable name attached to it, not a single dollar has been from an unknown source and I happen to like that. In addition, as soon as the organization was incorporated we made it a point that all HANA member sign-ups included from that point on included a real name and address associated with it, not just a screen name and miscellaneous e-mail. You asked about making an anonymous gift and I apologize for not responding but I frankly did not know how at the time because that was the first and in fact it still is the only such request and I frankly did not know how to give an appropriate response and was busy and just let it fall through the cracks. You are welcome to send us a check or Paypal with your real name on it and we will not divulge your name and address, but as far as having a stranger in disquise walk up and hand a HANA Board member an envelope with cash, that sort of anonymous, the answer is no.

As far as you asking what my motivation is, since you are alluding to some sort of alterior motive and since you seem to be so interested in who other people are and why they do what they do, I will tell you. I am the type that when I get upset and pissed off about something I either work to correct/improve it or I move on. I have had a tremendous level of frustration with rampant dysfunctionality in the industry that is so bad that merely placing a bet on a race at home is accompanied with the "Can I bet that track and on what ADW" guessing game because its constantly changing due to horsemens fights, exclusive contracts, its the fourth Tuesday of the fifth month during leap year or whatever. I showed up in the War Room mid-summer to join the HANA organizational meetings specifically because of those frustrations and the fact I had reached the point whereby either I try to fix it or just completely walk away from the game. If the HANA Board had just hidden behind its collective keyboards and nobody had been willing to put their names out there as being officers of the organization and nobody was making an effort to get out and talk with industry participants and officials, well, HANA would not be a corporate entity and it would have been doomed to be a two bit irrelevant player that is not taken seriously by the industry with a fraction of the members it has now. I realize you would prefer it had stayed that way and that is your prerogative, but I think the vast majority of our members are relatively happy with the progress we have made. One of the goals was to give horseplayers a voice and also for horseplayers to get "a seat at the table" so that voice is heard effectively and give that voice an opportunity to be involved with creating solutions. We have made a small amount of progress but have a very long road ahead of us.miesque,
I’ve chosen not to sacrifice my privacy in order to pursue racing reform. That is indeed my prerogative just as yours has been to place yourself in the public eye. There is no “right way” to participate and we obviously have different agendas. Your take on those who refuse to reveal their identity on the internet is that they are “hiding.” Mine is that too frequently those who provide their identities on-line are more likely to be promoting themselves for potential profit or other personal benefit that offsets the risk of exposure to stalkers and invaders of privacy.

Thanks for your notification (at least to PA forum members and visitors) that all HANA sign-ups after a certain point required name and address. Perhaps you should also modify the Mission Statement on the HANA blog which statesTo continually encourage participation in HANA, our founding principles are:

1) Membership will always be free and never require more information than a valid e-mail address to participate …I suspect that several other portions of that Mission statement should be addressed as well. If HANA were more of a grass-roots movement, and less of a social vehicle, much more information would be disseminated to its members, and its positions would more closely reflect that of its collective membership rather than just that of its decision-makers.

I disagree with your conclusion that under a different approach, HANA “would have been doomed to be a two bit irrelevant player that is not taken seriously by the industry,” and I take exception to your statement, “I realize you would prefer it had stayed that way …” What I actually would have preferred is that HANA represented the casual bettor to a far greater extent than it currently appears to.

I was amazed that TVG did not challenge HANA’s claim that it’s membership represents $41 million in annual handle. (I wonder if Nicholson did so in one of those private meetings). My point is that if HANA’s 1000 members allegedly average $41,000 in annual wagers ($3400 monthly), then it is more representative of existing rebated players than those who bet for entertainment. It’s very nice that Mike Maloney has endorsed HANA, but takeout on his wagers are already discounted to the max. Will his participation eventually lower takeout on my wagers? Is the current HANA membership likely to support a boycott which is the most likely way small bettors will ever get a significant reduction in takeout? Would visible leaders of a boycott be subject to lawsuits?

KEE and TVG have nothing to lose and expect to gain something by promoting HANA. That doesn’t imply HANA is in bed with them; only that HANA is not currently seen as any kind of threat to actually change the status quo. However, I can see where a stranger with a Snidely Whiplash mustache and an envelope full of cash might be.;)

[price]

Credibilty is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't asked anyone for a donation...nor am I trying to sell anything. I have brought up the fact that this horseplayers group has been awfuly kind to TVG.

TVG is not for open distriubution of signals and has done everything in their power to hold onto the idea of exclusives as good for the game. When TVG held the best hand with NYRA CDI tracks as exclusvies they told everyone who wanted open access to take a flying leap. TVG certainly has never supported a lower take or rebates. TVG has never suported or even mentioned the idea that the racino horseplayer is deserving of some welfare themselves and that a small percentage of slots dough should be added to a jackpot pool.

When Paulick was at bloodhorse and taking ad money from TVG he supported the idea that exclusivity was good for the game. Even let Nathanson of TVG write an editorial. You can judge for yourselves as to how ethical that was.

Seems like money/gifts/free pub has a lot to with how TVG is covered. If you want to stand by principles take a look at HANA's stated beliefs and where TVG has been on those issues. Then you judge for yourselves.

[miesque]

miesque,
I’ve chosen not to sacrifice my privacy in order to pursue racing reform. That is indeed my prerogative just as yours has been to place yourself in the public eye. There is no “right way” to participate and we obviously have different agendas. Your take on those who refuse to reveal their identity on the internet is that they are “hiding.” Mine is that too frequently those who provide their identities on-line are more likely to be promoting themselves for potential profit or other personal benefit that offsets the risk of exposure to stalkers and invaders of privacy.

Thanks for your notification (at least to PA forum members and visitors) that all HANA sign-ups after a certain point required name and address. Perhaps you should also modify the Mission Statement on the HANA blog which statesI suspect that several other portions of that Mission statement should be addressed as well. If HANA were more of a grass-roots movement, and less of a social vehicle, much more information would be disseminated to its members, and its positions would more closely reflect that of its collective membership rather than just that of its decision-makers.

[/color]I disagree with your conclusion that under a different approach, HANA “would have been doomed to be a two bit irrelevant player that is not taken seriously by the industry,” and I take exception to your statement, “I realize you would prefer it had stayed that way …” What I actually would have preferred is that HANA represented the casual bettor to a far greater extent than it currently appears to.

I was amazed that TVG did not challenge HANA’s claim that it’s membership represents $41 million in annual handle. (I wonder if Nicholson did so in one of those private meetings). My point is that if HANA’s 1000 members allegedly average $41,000 in annual wagers ($3400 monthly), then it is more representative of existing rebated players than those who bet for entertainment. It’s very nice that Mike Maloney has endorsed HANA, but takeout on his wagers are already discounted to the max. Will his participation eventually lower takeout on my wagers? Is the current HANA membership likely to support a boycott which is the most likely way small bettors will ever get a significant reduction in takeout? Would visible leaders of a boycott be subject to lawsuits?

KEE and TVG have nothing to lose and expect to gain something by promoting HANA. That doesn’t imply HANA is in bed with them; only that HANA is not currently seen as any kind of threat to actually change the status quo. However, I can see where a stranger with a Snidely Whiplash mustache and an envelope full of cash might be.;)

We obviously see the world very differently and have diametrically different ideas on what is required to effectuate change so I am going to leave it at that and be uncharacteristically nice. Thank you very much for your input and all your efforts to challenge and undermine the Horseplayers Association of North America, it has been duly noted.

[chickenhead]

What has HANA done to be awfully kind to TVG?

Anyone critical of HANA -- man up and make a real recommendation. You want HANA to get Keeneland on your racing channel -- send HANA an email, explaining why Keeneland is not there currently, what needs to change for them to be there, and what, exactly, explicitely, step by step -- you suggest HANA do that is going to change whatever needs changing to get them there.

HANA is not some magical group. It is Jeff, Miesque, Dean, John, Bill W, and a couple other people -- trying to do what they can to help push things. They have basically zero dollars to do anything, and are spending probably more time than any of them can reasonably justify to do what they have been doing. The fact they have been able to get "the message" of lower takeout, wider content distribution, etc -- out there in somewhat significant ways is great.

IMHO opinion, what HANA does not need is one off fly by criticisms, no matter how constructive anyone might think it is -- they need more resources. In terms of detailed, well thought out, actionable ideas, volunteer effort, and money.

How anyone expects them to do anything, without them themselves manning up to help give them the resources they would need to do that something, is beyond me.

[Tom]

Aside from HANA, who else in the business is looking out for the fans?

[Indulto]

We obviously see the world very differently and have diametrically different ideas on what is required to effectuate change so I am going to leave it at that and be uncharacteristically nice. Thank you very much for your input and all your efforts to challenge and undermine the Horseplayers Association of North America, it has been duly noted.Thank you for being so nice. ;)

I would be remiss, however, if I didn’t point out that a single individual challenging HANA’s ideas, or those of one of its leaders, is hardly undermining them unless the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes. The only individuals who might actually be undermining HANA are HANA members who treat small-bankroll horseplayers with the same disdain that the industry as a whole continues to do. Damage is also self-inflicted by those who persist in demanding adherence to face-to-face social conventions in communication increasingly conducted through the internet within an industry whose existence and expansion depends upon that medium.

JeffP appears to be doing an outstanding job as the face of HANA which is not surprising if you’ve ever read his description of why the “game is broken.” It’s among the most inspirational writing I’ve been exposed to on the internet. It captures, and eloquently expresses, the frustration shared by all of us for whom racing is a passion.

I mistakenly read into it an urgency it would seem he did not intend. I may disagree with how HANA has evolved, and what it can be expected to accomplish in the short term, but I have a great deal of respect for many of the people it brought me into contact with through the internet. Those that have my respect earned it.

[Cangamble]

Thank you for being so nice. ;)

I would be remiss, however, if I didn’t point out that a single individual challenging HANA’s ideas, or those of one of its leaders, is hardly undermining them unless the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes. The only individuals who might actually be undermining HANA are HANA members who treat small-bankroll horseplayers with the same disdain that the industry as a whole continues to do. Damage is also self-inflicted by those who persist in demanding adherence to face-to-face social conventions in communication increasingly conducted through the internet within an industry whose existence and expansion depends upon that medium.

JeffP appears to be doing an outstanding job as the face of HANA which is not surprising if you’ve ever read his description of why the “game is broken.” It’s among the most inspirational writing I’ve been exposed to on the internet. It captures, and eloquently expresses, the frustration shared by all of us for whom racing is a passion.

I mistakenly read into it an urgency it would seem he did not intend. I may disagree with how HANA has evolved, and what it can be expected to accomplish in the short term, but I have a great deal of respect for many of the people it brought me into contact with through the internet. Those that have my respect earned it.
One of our main goals is to either reduce takeout and/or to get ADW's to give the same rebate percentage to all players. Most of us at HANA believe that today's $2 bettor could be tomorrows $100 bettor.
Our main objective over everything else is growth, and I think it is pretty evident that most players start small when it comes to horse racing. In order to achieve growth, horse racing needs new bettors. Growth in handle doesn't get new bettors. The buzz created by those who actually win does as does the slower eroding of bankrolls (as proven by Betfair).

[ezrabrooks]

"One of our main goals is to either reduce takeout and/or to get ADW's to give the same rebate percentage to all players. Most of us at HANA believe that today's $2 bettor could be tomorrows $100 bettor."



So HANA doesn't represent all horse players?

EZ

[Cangamble]

"One of our main goals is to either reduce takeout and/or to get ADW's to give the same rebate percentage to all players. Most of us at HANA believe that today's $2 bettor could be tomorrows $100 bettor."

So HANA doesn't represent all horse players?

EZ
Of course we do. I think you are missing the point. We are into growing the game. Growth won't happen unless new blood comes into the game.
And I'm saying that ALL $2 bettors are potential $100 bettors down the road, so ALL $2 bettors are actually more important to HANA in the long run than today's $100 bettor.

I want to add that I'm only one individual, and this my interpretation of what HANA is doing and the direction HANA is taking.

[miesque]

This is a little off subject, but Cangamble’s comment about the $2 bettor brought up a subject that has been on my mind for a while and have been thinking a bit more about the last week or two. Different tracks throughout the country have shown some “life” on the attendance front recently. Santa Anita had over 50K for Santa Anita Derby Day, Keeneland had over 30K for Coolmore Lexington Day and had the third highest attendance this Spring Meet, on Saturday Churchill had one of the best opening days, Hollywood Park had over 10K in attendance on Friday night, and even Emerald Downs have a 10K crowd on opening day. I bring this up not only to highlight some rare positive news but also to point out two items where I think all horseplayers could help make a small impact. First, I think we all could put a little more effort into bringing friends who are either very casual fans or newbies to the game with us to the track whenever we visit. I realize they require time and effort because you end up explaining a lot and as such it’s a lot easier to just go yourself or with established track buddies, but its an area where I think we could all make a better effort and hopefully create some budding horseplayers. Second, the big question is how do you convert those very casual fans who show up on these big days into more dedicated horseplayers. That’s a real toughie and I don’t know what the answer is, but maybe there is a way that existing horseplayers can perhaps help, instead of saying its not their problem or responsibility, we all are better off with more players in the pools. I think it wouldn’t hurt if the phrase “horseplayer” had a more positive connotation outside of the industry aka make it more attractive, cool, hip, etc., but I know there are those that vehemently disagree. But I think that if you really want to bring in new blood to the Pools it would be beneficial for Horseplayers to market themselves a lot better (again I usually get flak for these comments).

[DeanT]

Credibilty is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't asked anyone for a donation...nor am I trying to sell anything. I have brought up the fact that this horseplayers group has been awfuly kind to TVG.

TVG is not for open distriubution of signals and has done everything in their power to hold onto the idea of exclusives as good for the game. When TVG held the best hand with NYRA CDI tracks as exclusvies they told everyone who wanted open access to take a flying leap. TVG certainly has never supported a lower take or rebates. TVG has never suported or even mentioned the idea that the racino horseplayer is deserving of some welfare themselves and that a small percentage of slots dough should be added to a jackpot pool.

When Paulick was at bloodhorse and taking ad money from TVG he supported the idea that exclusivity was good for the game. Even let Nathanson of TVG write an editorial. You can judge for yourselves as to how ethical that was.

Seems like money/gifts/free pub has a lot to with how TVG is covered. If you want to stand by principles take a look at HANA's stated beliefs and where TVG has been on those issues. Then you judge for yourselves.

Price,

In all seriousness, in this business there are good people in ALL organizations who care about the game. Do we agree with many of them, yes, but we disagree with many of them too. In reality, racing is a mess, but there are good things that many organizations do. CDI is an odd lot - what they are doing with Twinspires TV is a good thing for racing. They are investing in ADW to bring the game to the bettor, they are offering programs for free and so on. But they fail in many other avenues. The rebate only to whales stance, and other signal problems results in criticism. We are critical in the latter, but give praise to the former.

TVG is similar. We have blog pieces against the 25 cent bet fee - we hate it, and we think it sends the wrong message to the fan. However, their network is fantastic when it comes to outreach to fans, and distributing the message to the masses. As well, there are very good people there who care about the game. In addition betfair is taking it over as we speak. Will there be changes? We are digging to find out, and we are lobbying for changes for the better at this very moment.

We have to give places a chance to change after we ask for it. For example here is a quote from the betfair annual report about takeouts:

Slot machine operators around the world routinely return a higher percentage to punters than they are required to under regulation. Altruism, or commercial nous?

Racing knows that customers who go racing, and a) feel they had no value for money at the racecourse, and b) don’t win a single bet all day, don’t have much fun. They may not come back. In just the same way, we know that the least valuable customers to Betfair are the ones who lose all their money quickly. They go away and never come back. So, we are happy to take less off our customers per bet.

Business is all about offering your customer the product he wants at the price he wants. If you can do that, he’ll spend his money with you. For us, that means offering a whole new range of products (inrunning betting, for example, or the ability to trade a position), to attract a whole new audience.

Does that not deserve our support should they bring that mindset to TVG?

Take a look at what a place like PTC, or Day at the track, or TVG, goes through with signals.

http://www.dayatthetrack.com/residencyreq.mdg

We can pick on this ADW for this, however the business is so messed up that it would be a fallacy. These are gvt rules that need to be changed.

With TVG and all ADW's as well as some of the larger tracks there is a fine line with criticism and praise which we walk. Many of the things they want to do is not allowed by 1920 regulations in an internet world. But they want to do them.

Sorry for the long winded email, but it is something we think about often, and I want you to know that. If you ever see praise to one group, it does not mean that praise is for the whole group at all times. Conversely if you see us tear into someone, they are not the devil all the time either. It is a business that is working in a systemically challenged vacuum, dealing with rules that any business would have long scrapped. We are trying our best on scrapping the old rules and bringing in new ones, so that the good people in these organizations actually can change the game for the better. It is all about finding common ground and making the horseplayer voice have a seat at the table - nothing more and nothing less.

As for TVG and their business model of exclusivity? Yes we do not like that, but that model was something for 2003. We can not gripe about what someone did 5 years ago and hold a gun to their head for it, if they are willing to change. This project (HANA) is about what happens tomorrow, not what happened yesterday.

[Indulto]

One of our main goals is to either reduce takeout and/or to get ADW's to give the same rebate percentage to all players. Most of us at HANA believe that today's $2 bettor could be tomorrows $100 bettor.
Our main objective over everything else is growth, and I think it is pretty evident that most players start small when it comes to horse racing. In order to achieve growth, horse racing needs new bettors. Growth in handle doesn't get new bettors. The buzz created by those who actually win does as does the slower eroding of bankrolls (as proven by Betfair).Of course we do. I think you are missing the point. We are into growing the game. Growth won't happen unless new blood comes into the game.
And I'm saying that ALL $2 bettors are potential $100 bettors down the road, so ALL $2 bettors are actually more important to HANA in the long run than today's $100 bettor.

I want to add that I'm only one individual, and this my interpretation of what HANA is doing and the direction HANA is taking.:ThmbUp:

[Indulto]

... I bring this up not only to highlight some rare positive news but also to point out two items where I think all horseplayers could help make a small impact. First, I think we all could put a little more effort into bringing friends who are either very casual fans or newbies to the game with us to the track whenever we visit. I realize they require time and effort because you end up explaining a lot and as such it’s a lot easier to just go yourself or with established track buddies, but its an area where I think we could all make a better effort and hopefully create some budding horseplayers. Second, the big question is how do you convert those very casual fans who show up on these big days into more dedicated horseplayers. That’s a real toughie and I don’t know what the answer is, but maybe there is a way that existing horseplayers can perhaps help, instead of saying its not their problem or responsibility, we all are better off with more players in the pools. I think it wouldn’t hurt if the phrase “horseplayer” had a more positive connotation outside of the industry aka make it more attractive, cool, hip, etc., but I know there are those that vehemently disagree. But I think that if you really want to bring in new blood to the Pools it would be beneficial for Horseplayers to market themselves a lot better (again I usually get flak for these comments).This the way many of us got started, but at a time when racing had no competition for the gambling dollar, most facilities were well-maintained, and travel time was no obstacle. We need some help to be effective recruiters now.

The biggest impediment to your suggestion in So Cal is the horrible traffic situation which has extended travel times by a factor of 4 in the worst cases, and defeats such plans before they get off the ground. Dedicated tour buses that can use the diamond lane with on-board, live, interactive racing education seminars might overcome resistance in this area. Perhaps weekend buses with entertaining handicapping seminars via on-board PCs for regular players might become profitable ventures.

The economy is another obstacle. Disposable income is shrinking. I doubt the recent free admission promos at SA which although it increased attendance, actually attracted many newbies. Track promos should focus on newbies and offer verifiable newbies tremendous incentives to make that first day at the track a memorable one.

It's a stuggle for most parents to bring their kids with them to the track at various stages of their development. Reliable, age-appropriate, reservation-scheduled day care at very reasonable cost (and free to verifiable newbie parents) should be considered. Even if these newbies don't become regular attendees, they might continue to bet on televised races off-track following an initial pleasant experience.

Tracks should create internet webcasts for newbies to acquaint them with racehorses, handicapping, and betting. The better prepared a newbie is for his/her first day at the track, the greater the anticipation and potential fulfillment. How effective was that recent SA ad where the old guy is telling his smiling, distracted grandson(?) how to pick a horse in non-serious fashion? I doubt it stimulated attendance.

As far as upgrading the image of horselayers goes, despite our competitiveness and motivation by self-interest, aren't we at least viewed collectively as a step above attorneys and congresspersons? ;) Regarding the social desirability and/or acceptance of horseplaying males, I always thought that the best way to get more women to the track was to have monthly Friday evening singles handicapping contests where couples were matched by some criteria for participation.

Do you think that would improve the breed? :lol:

[Lasix67]

I would like to add my 2 cents worth on a particular aspect of the game that I
feel strongly would help raise awareness, and attract newer players to the
game. I strongly believe it is time to bring our sport into the 21 century and make it's content available at all tracks and on both TVG and HRTV in High Definition. The difference when you watch NBC, ESPN, or at the local tracks that simulcast in HD such as Keeneland and Churchill group, is so dramatic and so colorful that it draws you in on the sights and how beautiful the thoroughbred horse is as an athlete. I think it is way over due and if this sport is going to compete and simply survive against the likes of football, basketball, baseball, nascar, nhl, golf, soccor, poker, etc. that already broadcast most if not all of their content in HD, then horse racing had better get on board quickly.
As for RTN, which I had at one time and enjoyed until I realized that I could purchase a simple adapter for conversion of video from computer to tv and go to TS and use the beta format and get all the tracks and more with the same quality as I was getting with RTN , but for free , well it became a no brainer for me. Just my thoughts on one of the aspects of improving the game, but not my only thoughts. Just commenting on the broadcasting and video aspect of the game.
Thanks for reading my rant...

[Imriledup]

This is a little off subject, but Cangamble’s comment about the $2 bettor brought up a subject that has been on my mind for a while and have been thinking a bit more about the last week or two. Different tracks throughout the country have shown some “life” on the attendance front recently. Santa Anita had over 50K for Santa Anita Derby Day, Keeneland had over 30K for Coolmore Lexington Day and had the third highest attendance this Spring Meet, on Saturday Churchill had one of the best opening days, Hollywood Park had over 10K in attendance on Friday night, and even Emerald Downs have a 10K crowd on opening day. I bring this up not only to highlight some rare positive news but also to point out two items where I think all horseplayers could help make a small impact. First, I think we all could put a little more effort into bringing friends who are either very casual fans or newbies to the game with us to the track whenever we visit. I realize they require time and effort because you end up explaining a lot and as such it’s a lot easier to just go yourself or with established track buddies, but its an area where I think we could all make a better effort and hopefully create some budding horseplayers. Second, the big question is how do you convert those very casual fans who show up on these big days into more dedicated horseplayers. That’s a real toughie and I don’t know what the answer is, but maybe there is a way that existing horseplayers can perhaps help, instead of saying its not their problem or responsibility, we all are better off with more players in the pools. I think it wouldn’t hurt if the phrase “horseplayer” had a more positive connotation outside of the industry aka make it more attractive, cool, hip, etc., but I know there are those that vehemently disagree. But I think that if you really want to bring in new blood to the Pools it would be beneficial for Horseplayers to market themselves a lot better (again I usually get flak for these comments).

I refuse to take anyone i know and respect to the racetrack and try to introduce them to this game. This is a brutal game where the businesses (racetracks) treat customers like pond scum. The takeout rates are almost impossible to beat, even for the most seasoned horseplayers, the food services stink and the prices are astronomical, i could go on and on, but i dont want to bore all of you.

if i introduced a person to this game and they got 'hooked' and turned into a bettor who had no shot to win, that would really weigh on my concious.

[sandpit]

I refuse to take anyone i know and respect to the racetrack and try to introduce them to this game. This is a brutal game where the businesses (racetracks) treat customers like pond scum. The takeout rates are almost impossible to beat, even for the most seasoned horseplayers, the food services stink and the prices are astronomical, i could go on and on, but i dont want to bore all of you.

if i introduced a person to this game and they got 'hooked' and turned into a bettor who had no shot to win, that would really weigh on my concious.

I have to say I agree with most of your points (takeout, overall customer service, and to a degree, marginal food), but I don't agree with the statement that prices are astronomical. I say this because if you go to almost any professional sporting event, then you will really experience what astronomical prices are. A beer at Dodger stadium last year cost me $10; at the Cinci Reds a couple of years ago it was $7.50. The only time a track charges that much is on Derby or Oaks day. You could probably compare food prices and come up with something similar. I used this comparison because racing and other sporting events are sports-entertainment options that take up a good portion of one's day when they decide to attend.

So, maybe I wouldn't want to take people in hope of making them life-long gamblers, but I could definitely do worse when looking for a way to spend a few entertainment dollars.

[miesque]

I have to say I agree with most of your points (takeout, overall customer service, and to a degree, marginal food), but I don't agree with the statement that prices are astronomical. I say this because if you go to almost any professional sporting event, then you will really experience what astronomical prices are. A beer at Dodger stadium last year cost me $10; at the Cinci Reds a couple of years ago it was $7.50. The only time a track charges that much is on Derby or Oaks day. You could probably compare food prices and come up with something similar. I used this comparison because racing and other sporting events are sports-entertainment options that take up a good portion of one's day when they decide to attend.

So, maybe I wouldn't want to take people in hope of making them life-long gamblers, but I could definitely do worse when looking for a way to spend a few entertainment dollars.

Poor customer service and mediocre, overpriced food is actually a big issue with me when I attend a track because I am almost always up in the dining rate and sometimes when the bill comes around its just adding insult to injury. Now there is a useful poll, which tracks consistently have the shittiest customer service, worst food and how badly overpriced are they. :D

[Imriledup]

I have to say I agree with most of your points (takeout, overall customer service, and to a degree, marginal food), but I don't agree with the statement that prices are astronomical. I say this because if you go to almost any professional sporting event, then you will really experience what astronomical prices are. A beer at Dodger stadium last year cost me $10; at the Cinci Reds a couple of years ago it was $7.50. The only time a track charges that much is on Derby or Oaks day. You could probably compare food prices and come up with something similar. I used this comparison because racing and other sporting events are sports-entertainment options that take up a good portion of one's day when they decide to attend.

So, maybe I wouldn't want to take people in hope of making them life-long gamblers, but I could definitely do worse when looking for a way to spend a few entertainment dollars.

Good points. You could also sneak a bottle of water or food into a track, but you can't do that at a sporting event.

[Cangamble]

I refuse to take anyone i know and respect to the racetrack and try to introduce them to this game. This is a brutal game where the businesses (racetracks) treat customers like pond scum. The takeout rates are almost impossible to beat, even for the most seasoned horseplayers, the food services stink and the prices are astronomical, i could go on and on, but i dont want to bore all of you.

if i introduced a person to this game and they got 'hooked' and turned into a bettor who had no shot to win, that would really weigh on my concious.
I agree. Unless I'm introducing a player to an ADW with a good rebate, introducing a newbie to the track with the pricing the way it is right now (the fact that it is near impossible or impossible to beat a 21% collective takeout in the long run), is like putting someone in a room and injecting them with heroin until they get hooked.
I wouldn't do that to a friend. I wouldn't even do it to a stranger.

Changes need to be made FIRST before I'm going to go on a campaign to introduce newbies to the track again.

[Indulto]

I agree. Unless I'm introducing a player to an ADW with a good rebate, introducing a newbie to the track with the pricing the way it is right now (the fact that it is near impossible or impossible to beat a 21% collective takeout in the long run), is like putting someone in a room and injecting them with heroin until they get hooked.
I wouldn't do that to a friend. I wouldn't even do it to a stranger.

Changes need to be made FIRST before I'm going to go on a campaign to introduce newbies to the track again.I share your reticence, but if I still lived in NY, I would make the effort to enable younger generations to experience the spectacle of SAR, BEL and MTH that I was exposed to in my youth.

Of course I would caution the more enthusiastic that the game was not as beatable as it once was, and that their help would be needed to change the status quo.